1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,140 Sally Ann Hunt: This is Lecker I'm 2 00:00:07,150 --> 00:00:07,480 Lucy: Lucy 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:07,670 Dearlove 4 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:08,420 Sally Ann Hunt: so 5 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:12,280 also, another light bulb moment. 6 00:00:12,420 --> 00:00:14,180 Do you know when you're putting something on the grill? 7 00:00:14,625 --> 00:00:16,884 And you're trying to stir it and you think it's a little lost its heat. 8 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:19,555 All you do is you move it round your grill. 9 00:00:19,555 --> 00:00:21,624 Because this is going to be warmer than it is there. 10 00:00:21,625 --> 00:00:24,064 Because that product has actually lowered that temperature down. 11 00:00:24,065 --> 00:00:26,115 So all you do is you keep moving it round. 12 00:00:26,145 --> 00:00:30,924 Lucy: In a yard on Welbeck Estate in Nottinghamshire, Sally Ann Hunt is dancing 13 00:00:30,924 --> 00:00:32,654 between her many different barbecues. 14 00:00:33,994 --> 00:00:38,705 There's a neat red ceramic egg, a long sleek contraption, like a 15 00:00:38,705 --> 00:00:42,840 black stretched limo and an oil drum had a baby, And two historic 16 00:00:42,940 --> 00:00:44,850 looking setups taking centre stage. 17 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,320 Giant iron bowls with fire in the middle, and various delicious 18 00:00:49,330 --> 00:00:50,600 things on and over them. 19 00:00:51,270 --> 00:00:55,700 A leg of venison, rolled up hispy cabbage leaves, a tiny cast iron 20 00:00:55,770 --> 00:01:00,990 skillet of toasting pine nuts, and my favourite thing of all, a shawarma spiced 21 00:01:01,070 --> 00:01:05,860 cauliflower, imprisoned in a spherical iron cage, suspended by a serious 22 00:01:05,860 --> 00:01:07,820 looking hook and chain, over the fire. 23 00:01:11,914 --> 00:01:15,557 Sally Ann Hunt: When I butchered it, I separated the lean from 24 00:01:15,557 --> 00:01:17,145 the fat to make sausages. 25 00:01:17,155 --> 00:01:20,005 When I make sausages, it has to be a certain percentage, 26 00:01:20,005 --> 00:01:21,915 a ratio of lean to fat. 27 00:01:22,344 --> 00:01:24,565 Um, usually 80 20 when you're going that way. 28 00:01:24,594 --> 00:01:26,054 So I took the fat out of there. 29 00:01:26,455 --> 00:01:30,355 I usually get about 30 kilos of beef fat out of one animal. 30 00:01:30,655 --> 00:01:33,365 And I render it down and I use that for everything really. 31 00:01:33,415 --> 00:01:34,775 Mainly for frying chips in at home. 32 00:01:35,789 --> 00:01:37,437 It's the, you know, old fashioned way of doing 33 00:01:37,437 --> 00:01:37,751 it. 34 00:01:37,751 --> 00:01:38,065 I've 35 00:01:38,065 --> 00:01:41,829 done that before, so I've made candles out of a beef tallow. 36 00:01:41,830 --> 00:01:42,130 Sally 37 00:01:42,130 --> 00:01:45,270 Lucy: Sally Ann is a tutor at the School of Artisan Food on the Welbeck Estate. 38 00:01:45,749 --> 00:01:52,779 She teaches barbecue, smoking and curing, pie making, sausages, dairy and foraging. 39 00:01:53,850 --> 00:01:56,830 She's one of the most creative and resourceful people I've encountered in 40 00:01:56,830 --> 00:02:02,170 food and seems to be always looking to try out exciting new techniques and ideas. 41 00:02:04,515 --> 00:02:07,985 Sally Ann Hunt: This is called a flamborero or something, right? 42 00:02:08,305 --> 00:02:12,895 And I've got a friend on the estate, told you everything's got a story, called 43 00:02:12,895 --> 00:02:17,085 Joseph Dawes and he makes the armour for the Royal Family and also all of 44 00:02:17,085 --> 00:02:18,295 the weapons for the Game of Thrones. 45 00:02:18,775 --> 00:02:20,975 So I buzzed him and I said, I need one of these. 46 00:02:21,605 --> 00:02:24,445 Ten minutes, well, ten minutes he said, I'll get you started. 47 00:02:24,485 --> 00:02:25,455 Two hours later, I got one. 48 00:02:25,455 --> 00:02:27,764 Wow. 49 00:02:27,765 --> 00:02:28,105 Yeah. 50 00:02:28,435 --> 00:02:30,935 So all he do with that is when he does it, he just trips over it. 51 00:02:31,444 --> 00:02:31,694 Yeah. 52 00:02:31,694 --> 00:02:32,255 You can see. 53 00:02:32,555 --> 00:02:35,910 And it's so you don't get Burnt on your arms. 54 00:02:36,290 --> 00:02:36,600 Looks the worst. 55 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:38,389 You'd be able to buy one of these though. 56 00:02:38,390 --> 00:02:39,030 You can buy them. 57 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:40,270 You can buy them from Kadai. 58 00:02:40,390 --> 00:02:41,390 But they haven't got them in stock. 59 00:02:41,390 --> 00:02:42,660 Do you not have a personal armourer? 60 00:02:48,470 --> 00:02:51,359 Lucy: Along with a dozen or so others, I was very kindly invited 61 00:02:51,419 --> 00:02:54,660 to a press day at the School of Artisan Food earlier this year. 62 00:02:55,420 --> 00:03:00,050 We all attended three mini versions of some of the courses that the 63 00:03:00,050 --> 00:03:01,354 school offers as a way of learning. 64 00:03:01,755 --> 00:03:04,065 of letting people know about this year's summer school. 65 00:03:05,195 --> 00:03:10,264 Sally Anne's Barbecue Workshop, a bread workshop with baker Kevin Roberts, which 66 00:03:10,284 --> 00:03:14,204 I have to admit I did not record because my hands were immediately so coated 67 00:03:14,204 --> 00:03:18,385 in dough I couldn't touch anything, and a patisserie workshop with Martha 68 00:03:18,385 --> 00:03:23,205 Brown, where we somehow made chocolate and hazelnut amaretti and honeycomb in 69 00:03:23,225 --> 00:03:26,034 a suspiciously short amount of time. 70 00:03:26,314 --> 00:03:27,295 It felt like wizardry. 71 00:03:27,295 --> 00:03:29,494 Martha Brown: So you might be able to turn it up. 72 00:03:29,494 --> 00:03:35,140 So the magic number for us Today is 146 degrees, so that's the temperature that 73 00:03:35,140 --> 00:03:36,829 we're going to take our caramel to. 74 00:03:37,519 --> 00:03:40,149 Before we take it off the heat and add our bicarb. 75 00:03:40,150 --> 00:03:44,201 And our bicarb is there to give it volume, that's what turns it into honeycomb. 76 00:03:44,201 --> 00:03:48,260 If we were to cook it to 146 degrees and then we were going to just pour 77 00:03:48,269 --> 00:03:52,829 it out into a bowl, it would turn into a rock hard, clear caramel. 78 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,150 But what we want to do is aerate it, and so we're using bicarb. 79 00:03:56,150 --> 00:03:59,184 So yeah, now I'm pretty happy with it. 80 00:03:59,495 --> 00:04:02,435 I'm not going to get any more sugar crystals around the edge of my pan. 81 00:04:02,635 --> 00:04:03,905 I'm now going to work my way round. 82 00:04:03,905 --> 00:04:08,075 Just like, pushing all of that 83 00:04:10,614 --> 00:04:11,024 down. 84 00:04:11,114 --> 00:04:12,775 I haven't taken the temperature yet because it's not all 85 00:04:12,775 --> 00:04:15,955 melted and coming together. 86 00:04:16,605 --> 00:04:18,987 Yeah, these induction hobs seem to be hotter towards the back 87 00:04:18,987 --> 00:04:22,287 of them, so you're going to set your pan and put it off centre. 88 00:04:22,287 --> 00:04:23,229 Nothing's ever just right. 89 00:04:24,070 --> 00:04:25,939 Every oven has a personal temperature. 90 00:04:25,940 --> 00:04:28,510 Lucy: Martha actually started out attending the school herself, 91 00:04:28,890 --> 00:04:32,240 doing the Advanced Diploma in Artisan Baking in 2011. 92 00:04:32,450 --> 00:04:33,681 Martha Brown: Yeah, so there we go. 93 00:04:33,681 --> 00:04:34,700 So we're at 146. 94 00:04:34,700 --> 00:04:36,090 We've hit the magic number. 95 00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:39,946 So I'm going to remove from the heat, important, you don't want 96 00:04:39,946 --> 00:04:41,934 to be putting your bike on. 97 00:04:41,935 --> 00:04:42,500 Gonna 98 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:44,194 see the magic. 99 00:04:44,474 --> 00:04:45,325 Gonna see the magic! 100 00:04:45,885 --> 00:04:47,534 So, this is essential. 101 00:04:48,065 --> 00:04:48,994 That's ready. 102 00:04:49,065 --> 00:04:52,294 It's in a location that you don't have to move it, so you're not 103 00:04:52,294 --> 00:04:53,705 gonna burn yourself moving it. 104 00:04:53,705 --> 00:04:55,474 My bicarb's a little bit lumpy. 105 00:04:56,465 --> 00:04:57,767 I'm gonna pour it all in. 106 00:04:57,767 --> 00:05:00,244 And then I'm gonna whisk violently. 107 00:05:00,245 --> 00:05:02,765 And it's gonna climb. 108 00:05:05,095 --> 00:05:08,775 And then while it's still climbing, I'm gonna pour, sorry people at the back. 109 00:05:16,144 --> 00:05:20,475 Be so careful not to touch any of this caramel because it will 110 00:05:20,735 --> 00:05:25,424 stick to you while it's burning 111 00:05:25,424 --> 00:05:27,164 you. 112 00:05:27,745 --> 00:05:28,025 And then 113 00:05:28,025 --> 00:05:29,725 so that's, we're now not gonna touch that. 114 00:05:30,290 --> 00:05:32,500 Because we actually don't want to knock any air out of it. 115 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:33,510 We want to leave it alone. 116 00:05:33,540 --> 00:05:34,400 It is going to sink. 117 00:05:34,780 --> 00:05:35,680 It completely sinks. 118 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:36,140 That's normal. 119 00:05:36,580 --> 00:05:37,060 It's magic. 120 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:38,650 It is literal magic, isn't it? 121 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:39,379 How can they do that? 122 00:05:39,380 --> 00:05:44,729 I think a lot of people have that kind of completely foundationless 123 00:05:45,020 --> 00:05:49,893 dream of like, wouldn't it be nice to have a cafe or a something, I 124 00:05:49,893 --> 00:05:51,580 don't know, something food related. 125 00:05:52,039 --> 00:05:55,840 And I think, I think I was like, I might make biscuits for a living. 126 00:05:56,020 --> 00:05:56,879 I don't really know what. 127 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:58,749 Lucy: Little did you know. 128 00:05:58,750 --> 00:06:00,340 Martha Brown: That seems manageable. 129 00:06:00,349 --> 00:06:01,369 That seems manageable. 130 00:06:01,689 --> 00:06:02,830 I was like, yeah, maybe biscuits. 131 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:06,840 And I think I was just randomly saying this to a friend one evening and, uh, 132 00:06:06,909 --> 00:06:11,174 he said, Oh there's no artisan bread in Sheffield and I don't think I even knew 133 00:06:11,174 --> 00:06:16,565 what the word artisan meant And so I was like Yeah, yeah, there's no artisan 134 00:06:16,755 --> 00:06:22,074 bread in Sheffield and I went home and I googled artisan bread And the school came 135 00:06:22,074 --> 00:06:27,185 up and I was like Oh that actually is out, that's such a cool course like, because 136 00:06:27,185 --> 00:06:31,005 I, I, I definitely knew the difference between like better quality bread and 137 00:06:31,005 --> 00:06:32,604 the kind of industrial supermarket bread. 138 00:06:33,075 --> 00:06:36,925 Food has always been a massive part of my kind of upbringing and like 139 00:06:36,955 --> 00:06:40,984 I've always been really into food so I've got kind of Cypriot family 140 00:06:41,024 --> 00:06:44,695 and kind of English Scottish family on both sides very differently. 141 00:06:45,265 --> 00:06:49,765 A lot of my memories from childhood are wrapped around food whether it's kind of 142 00:06:49,765 --> 00:06:55,289 like Cypriot barbecues and being handed a fork with a bit of like barbecued lamb 143 00:06:55,289 --> 00:07:00,639 on it to run around the garden, you know, by my like Or kind of um my scottish 144 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:02,979 grand baking, you know, it was a food. 145 00:07:02,979 --> 00:07:06,040 It was always has been massively tied up in my memories. 146 00:07:06,140 --> 00:07:09,480 Like literally my, my Greek granddad used to come up to to Sheffield to 147 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,869 see us with a suitcase, not full of clothes, but full of food, you know, 148 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:17,510 like bread from green lanes and like, just full of halloumi, you know that. 149 00:07:17,910 --> 00:07:21,809 So yeah, I think when I saw the course and that it wasn't that far away from 150 00:07:21,810 --> 00:07:25,810 me and that maybe I could either like commute or it wasn't a far move, I kind of 151 00:07:25,810 --> 00:07:30,425 thought like, actually, this is something that I am really interested in, even if 152 00:07:30,425 --> 00:07:32,615 it's not bread specific, at that time. 153 00:07:32,784 --> 00:07:35,375 I was just really interested in food and hadn't gone to uni. 154 00:07:35,375 --> 00:07:36,705 I'd kind of dropped out of school. 155 00:07:37,075 --> 00:07:39,854 I only had GCSEs, so never thought that, that I would be 156 00:07:39,865 --> 00:07:42,365 kind of academically studying. 157 00:07:42,435 --> 00:07:46,484 So yeah, I thought the school was my version of university and a, and a chance 158 00:07:46,485 --> 00:07:48,835 to kind of expand my interest in food. 159 00:07:49,125 --> 00:07:53,245 I totally got obsessed with baking and bread and sourdough 160 00:07:53,245 --> 00:07:54,534 and pastry while studying. 161 00:07:55,109 --> 00:07:59,469 So the diploma while I was there was a year long and you could study bread and 162 00:07:59,469 --> 00:08:02,710 patisserie, you could do butchery and charcuterie, and you could do dairy. 163 00:08:02,710 --> 00:08:06,210 So there's quite a real interesting mix of people and a really 164 00:08:06,260 --> 00:08:07,439 interesting mix of subjects. 165 00:08:07,439 --> 00:08:11,809 It's kind of the school of the fermented arts and we're all, most of us were kind 166 00:08:11,809 --> 00:08:14,530 of living together in a local village. 167 00:08:14,599 --> 00:08:17,460 So we had all sorts of things growing in our kind of student 168 00:08:17,479 --> 00:08:19,510 accommodation throughout the year. 169 00:08:20,010 --> 00:08:21,330 So it was a really amazing. 170 00:08:21,484 --> 00:08:24,324 year of discovery of kind of food and fermentation for me. 171 00:08:24,664 --> 00:08:28,124 Lucy: When you started the course, was it like an instant, like, oh 172 00:08:28,124 --> 00:08:29,655 yeah, this is where I need to be? 173 00:08:29,715 --> 00:08:31,864 Because it must have, I mean, that must have been quite intense to 174 00:08:31,864 --> 00:08:34,244 just suddenly go into the, because it's very, you know, you learn 175 00:08:34,244 --> 00:08:36,405 some very advanced skills, right? 176 00:08:37,084 --> 00:08:39,745 Martha Brown: Yeah, I think it's really accessible though at the start. 177 00:08:39,765 --> 00:08:42,560 It was a lot of kind of Real basic techniques. 178 00:08:42,560 --> 00:08:46,140 And also just the, I think what's unique about the course was that it was, there 179 00:08:46,140 --> 00:08:50,559 was such a good amount of practical time to really get into the nitty gritty 180 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:52,240 of just like every single ingredient. 181 00:08:52,250 --> 00:08:56,489 It was, yeah, you know, we spent probably the best part of a week thinking about 182 00:08:56,489 --> 00:09:00,319 like salt in bread and being able to do lots of tiny little experiments on 183 00:09:00,319 --> 00:09:04,380 the, you know, dough on salt and just the difference of the water made or 184 00:09:04,380 --> 00:09:09,455 the difference that, you know, that kind of, theory and time to play, which 185 00:09:09,455 --> 00:09:12,875 I think is really difficult to get professionally when you're working in a 186 00:09:12,875 --> 00:09:17,305 bakery and there is production and there is like this kind of constant cycle. 187 00:09:17,675 --> 00:09:20,895 I was in my early 20s and it was kind of my uni experience and I was like, 188 00:09:21,015 --> 00:09:24,355 so I, I feel like I could have even got way more out of it than I did. 189 00:09:24,775 --> 00:09:29,345 That time is quite unique in that you're not working, you're not at work and 190 00:09:29,345 --> 00:09:33,525 you're not having In the grind, yeah, it is really precious and, and the estate 191 00:09:33,525 --> 00:09:38,385 and the school, there's so many other things going on, I don't think I stuck 192 00:09:38,385 --> 00:09:41,705 myself into everything that was going on in the estate, um, because also at the 193 00:09:41,705 --> 00:09:47,445 time I was playing roller derby and I, I would like, so I was, I was really, 194 00:09:47,454 --> 00:09:49,275 really, really deep into roller derby. 195 00:09:49,525 --> 00:09:52,015 So I was kind of going back to train like three times a week. 196 00:09:52,015 --> 00:09:54,403 So I was kind of being pulled back to Sheffield. 197 00:09:54,403 --> 00:09:55,394 Three times a week? 198 00:09:55,394 --> 00:09:56,137 Lucy: Oh my God. 199 00:09:56,137 --> 00:09:56,879 Martha Brown: Even, yeah, yeah. 200 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:58,070 That's so funny. 201 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,550 Roller derby and bread were fighting for my attention. 202 00:10:02,850 --> 00:10:06,769 Lucy: And if I guess like, you know, there's a similarity in that you'd 203 00:10:06,769 --> 00:10:10,649 come to both of those things, I imagine, not really knowing anything 204 00:10:10,649 --> 00:10:15,699 about them or like being, having to be thrown quite in the deep end 205 00:10:15,710 --> 00:10:17,469 in like a very physical experience. 206 00:10:18,129 --> 00:10:19,830 Martha Brown: Yeah, I think maybe that's what I'm into. 207 00:10:22,650 --> 00:10:29,750 Yeah, I seem to get really Uh, into things and then really go for it. 208 00:10:30,110 --> 00:10:30,680 Yeah. 209 00:10:30,860 --> 00:10:31,200 Yeah. 210 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,889 The, the term like that just kind of has haunted me in my personal 211 00:10:35,889 --> 00:10:38,880 life and, and at the bakery was like, Martha likes the project. 212 00:10:39,309 --> 00:10:44,580 And I think as soon as I've kind of got like headspace from one project 213 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:47,100 and then like, now we can do this. 214 00:10:48,450 --> 00:10:53,090 Lucy: This experience of kind of full body immersion learning. 215 00:10:53,850 --> 00:10:56,730 was really the thing that I wanted to explore when I knew that I 216 00:10:56,730 --> 00:10:59,060 was going to make an episode about my day at the school. 217 00:11:01,220 --> 00:11:05,590 Watching all of the tutors working and teaching that day, it felt impossible 218 00:11:05,590 --> 00:11:10,589 to me that I could learn to do what they can do any other way apart from 219 00:11:10,879 --> 00:11:14,689 watching them do it, having them teach me, working out mistakes and challenges 220 00:11:14,919 --> 00:11:16,480 on the fly, while I tried it too. 221 00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:22,090 Sally Ann's tallow basting, Martha's careful pastry brushing 222 00:11:22,130 --> 00:11:23,110 to stop caramel crystallizing. 223 00:11:27,675 --> 00:11:30,475 I'm just not sure that I could have got them right out of 224 00:11:30,475 --> 00:11:32,195 a book or watching YouTube. 225 00:11:33,995 --> 00:11:36,885 I've never really done a cooking or baking class before. 226 00:11:37,605 --> 00:11:41,964 I'm quite resolutely self taught in most of the things that I do with my time. 227 00:11:42,975 --> 00:11:47,255 But recently I've begun to notice and to consider the limitations of 228 00:11:47,255 --> 00:11:48,595 learning in this way for me personally. 229 00:11:49,810 --> 00:11:53,280 And to think more about the value of physically handing down or 230 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,290 receiving knowledge and skills in the presence of other people. 231 00:11:57,939 --> 00:12:00,900 What do you think the value was in learning those skills in the 232 00:12:00,900 --> 00:12:04,160 environment that you did, like in s in such a hands on way? 233 00:12:04,569 --> 00:12:08,369 Because I sort of feel like we're in this age where, in theory, you 234 00:12:08,369 --> 00:12:13,049 can kind of learn anything from a book or from a YouTube video. 235 00:12:14,449 --> 00:12:18,905 It's actually like, in practice, I don't know if that's So I was 236 00:12:18,905 --> 00:12:22,405 interested to know what your thoughts are on that in, in terms of like 237 00:12:22,415 --> 00:12:23,965 bread and pâtisserie in particular. 238 00:12:24,115 --> 00:12:27,294 Martha Brown: I think like, it is amazing the amount of information 239 00:12:27,294 --> 00:12:31,605 there is online now and actually how accessible a lot of it is. 240 00:12:31,815 --> 00:12:38,365 But I think, And actually, I've learnt so much from online, like, I took apart 241 00:12:38,415 --> 00:12:42,584 a gearbox of a mixer because it was broken and I was like, well, I found a 242 00:12:42,585 --> 00:12:45,045 YouTube video, I may as well follow it. 243 00:12:45,045 --> 00:12:48,465 I stripped out this gearbox of a mixer, I stripped out the gearbox 244 00:12:48,465 --> 00:12:52,735 of a mixer, I found a broken cog, I ordered the part, and then I literally 245 00:12:52,765 --> 00:12:56,155 just watched the YouTube video in reverse to put it back together. 246 00:12:57,925 --> 00:12:58,755 Lucy: Well, that's incredible. 247 00:13:00,204 --> 00:13:02,774 Martha Brown: And it worked, so like, totally, it's something that 248 00:13:02,784 --> 00:13:08,064 is completely methodical and there is effectively one way of doing something. 249 00:13:08,404 --> 00:13:15,354 I think like, that is the, the great thing about kind of like online learning. 250 00:13:15,664 --> 00:13:20,474 I think food, and especially baking, there is just so many variables. 251 00:13:20,954 --> 00:13:25,084 And if you're watching, you know, even if you're reading a recipe in a book or 252 00:13:25,084 --> 00:13:31,300 you're following a method on a video, You are reading or seeing a single, a single 253 00:13:31,329 --> 00:13:34,079 kind of way that you can do that process. 254 00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:37,540 And actually there are so many variables, whether it's the temperature of your 255 00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:41,980 kitchen or the equipment that you're using, or the, the heat of your hands 256 00:13:41,980 --> 00:13:45,000 or how strong your fingers are, you know, there's so many variables. 257 00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:50,300 And also what you're seeing is the very best outcome for that person or that 258 00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:54,870 person who's produced that product or that recipe, and there's so much in between, 259 00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:56,329 and just because it doesn't turn out. 260 00:13:56,540 --> 00:14:00,870 That way doesn't mean that it's wrong or bad, or it's not going to taste 261 00:14:00,870 --> 00:14:05,320 nice, but there's that, Oh, I haven't reached that, that perfection, that goal. 262 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,550 I think a lot of the time when you're, when you're looking at online things, 263 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:12,610 especially on social media, whereas I think learning in an environment that 264 00:14:12,620 --> 00:14:17,560 is not only face to face teaching, but in a group situation where you're 265 00:14:17,610 --> 00:14:23,380 learning with other people, you see all that gray area and you kind of can 266 00:14:23,380 --> 00:14:28,335 really, you dissect what's happened and evaluate and problem solve. 267 00:14:28,335 --> 00:14:32,895 I think it's that like problem solving brain, especially with bakery, that is 268 00:14:32,895 --> 00:14:36,615 so essential, whether it's at home or whether you're baking professionally. 269 00:14:36,655 --> 00:14:40,884 And I think that's so hard to understand solo when you're kind of 270 00:14:40,914 --> 00:14:47,145 at home learning and just being able to see the different outputs and then 271 00:14:47,145 --> 00:14:49,505 be like, Hmm, what happened here? 272 00:14:49,985 --> 00:14:50,485 Do you know what I mean? 273 00:14:50,495 --> 00:14:52,965 Like just, just seeing the variation, I think. 274 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,430 alone is so useful. 275 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,100 Lucy: I hadn't actually thought about it from that angle and that's so 276 00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:02,939 true, like the idea that, yeah, you're reducing the process to its outcome 277 00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:09,939 or its output only, but actually like, in learning, the benefit is, yeah. 278 00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:12,010 What you're figuring out along the way. 279 00:15:12,270 --> 00:15:15,940 That reminds me of when we made the honeycomb. 280 00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:19,920 And I instantly was just like, oh, ours doesn't look like Martha's. 281 00:15:19,950 --> 00:15:21,899 So, something must have gone wrong. 282 00:15:22,210 --> 00:15:25,030 And that's exactly how I would have reacted if I'd made that at home. 283 00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:27,350 And I'd watched a video or like, seen a picture or whatever. 284 00:15:27,660 --> 00:15:29,020 I'd have been like, oh, mine's bad. 285 00:15:30,070 --> 00:15:33,400 But then you were like, oh no, it's just like It's going to look 286 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,700 fine on the inside, it's just the bubbles on the top aren't that big. 287 00:15:37,550 --> 00:15:40,920 And like, just even having that, like, there are actually different ways 288 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,900 for this to look and like, this might be the reason why this has happened. 289 00:15:44,380 --> 00:15:48,099 Yeah, it's hard to troubleshoot in that way, I think, independently. 290 00:15:48,099 --> 00:15:51,140 So it's really valuable to have that experience in the room. 291 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,060 Martha Brown: I think reassurance is a massive thing that you get 292 00:15:54,060 --> 00:15:55,310 from a face to face teacher. 293 00:15:55,530 --> 00:16:00,390 Like, I was teaching Fred last weekend, and You know, quite a few people were 294 00:16:00,410 --> 00:16:04,060 being like, mine looks different to yours when we were kneading our dough and just 295 00:16:04,060 --> 00:16:08,980 for me to be able to go, cool, you need mine now and I need, I'll need yours just 296 00:16:08,980 --> 00:16:12,780 so we can both feel each other's dough and then instantly they've touched it and 297 00:16:12,780 --> 00:16:14,930 they're like, Oh yeah, they feel the same. 298 00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:15,799 And it's like, yeah, they do. 299 00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:20,105 It's just, I like when you've been baking for a while, you just get nonstick hands. 300 00:16:20,105 --> 00:16:23,460 It's just like magically happens one day and you're like, dough 301 00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:25,969 doesn't stick to you in the same way as it does when you're learning. 302 00:16:26,409 --> 00:16:27,020 Oh my God. 303 00:16:28,670 --> 00:16:34,320 Mine looks smoother and, you know, and kind of different from other people's, 304 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,880 but it was just because I, I was touching the dough in a slightly different 305 00:16:36,899 --> 00:16:38,580 way to stop it looking as sticky. 306 00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:39,160 Do you know what I mean? 307 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:44,370 And it's that kind of, You can go into instant kind of like, spiral of 308 00:16:44,370 --> 00:16:47,040 like, mine is going wrong at home. 309 00:16:47,470 --> 00:16:52,180 When actually, it could, it could be exactly like the tutors in 310 00:16:52,180 --> 00:16:54,270 terms of like, quality or texture. 311 00:16:54,270 --> 00:16:56,109 Yeah, totally. 312 00:16:56,110 --> 00:16:58,539 Lucy: Do you, did you have any experiences, I mean, I guess it's quite 313 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,720 a while ago now and a lot has happened, but did you have any experiences 314 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:02,560 like that when you were learning? 315 00:17:03,390 --> 00:17:06,010 Martha Brown: Yeah, I definitely remember watching our tutor kind 316 00:17:06,010 --> 00:17:09,120 of, I think it was, it was just like pre shaping dough and, and it 317 00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:10,339 just wasn't sticking to his hands. 318 00:17:10,569 --> 00:17:14,190 And I was just like, how is this possible? 319 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,179 It's like, it's magic, like what the hell? 320 00:17:17,559 --> 00:17:23,050 It was so, yeah, or looking into a mixer as a dough was developing and like our 321 00:17:23,050 --> 00:17:27,720 tutor Wayne would be kind of describing what he was seeing and I was like, I 322 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,589 literally have no clue how he can like, it's like he's dough whispering and he 323 00:17:32,590 --> 00:17:34,300 understands the dough from seeing it. 324 00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:38,965 Whereas at the time I like, it just looked like lots of ingredients 325 00:17:38,975 --> 00:17:40,355 sloshing around a mixing bowl to me. 326 00:17:40,365 --> 00:17:42,775 Whereas I now have that knowledge. 327 00:17:42,805 --> 00:17:46,114 And that comes from, from things being pointed out to you as you 328 00:17:46,115 --> 00:17:52,065 learn and from repetition and, um, kind of, yeah, knowing the process 329 00:17:52,065 --> 00:17:55,255 through to the end and then being able to start to see that development. 330 00:17:55,945 --> 00:17:57,465 you know, earlier in the process. 331 00:17:58,595 --> 00:17:58,965 Yeah. 332 00:17:58,965 --> 00:18:00,255 I think it's really interesting. 333 00:18:00,355 --> 00:18:03,375 I have like strong memories of being told things and kind of not 334 00:18:03,375 --> 00:18:04,705 being able to see them at the time. 335 00:18:04,724 --> 00:18:09,114 And now it's something that like, I'm probably doing to other people by just 336 00:18:09,115 --> 00:18:11,614 saying, look, you can see it being doing this and they're nodding along. 337 00:18:11,614 --> 00:18:13,114 And I'm thinking, are you good? 338 00:18:13,124 --> 00:18:13,375 Do you know? 339 00:18:13,685 --> 00:18:14,265 It's all right. 340 00:18:14,265 --> 00:18:15,455 But I'm going to tell you anyway, because 341 00:18:15,805 --> 00:18:18,485 Lucy: one day you'll look back on this moment and be like, 342 00:18:18,485 --> 00:18:21,665 Martha Brown: yeah, yeah, totally. 343 00:18:22,315 --> 00:18:24,735 I think I'm a really practical and visual learner, 344 00:18:25,115 --> 00:18:25,765 and I actually 345 00:18:25,765 --> 00:18:30,234 think it really helps me then learn in a more academic way if I've 346 00:18:30,234 --> 00:18:32,245 had an experience of the process. 347 00:18:32,365 --> 00:18:37,954 I really struggle to learn completely, theoretically, about anything, but 348 00:18:38,075 --> 00:18:41,595 once I have a bit of an experience of something I can then read and 349 00:18:41,595 --> 00:18:46,165 devour information written that I would not have been able to do before. 350 00:18:51,135 --> 00:18:58,405 Lucy: I think somehow I had thought of the school in quite a romanticised way because 351 00:18:59,134 --> 00:19:05,614 I had decided that I wanted to tell this story about learning how to make food in 352 00:19:05,614 --> 00:19:08,685 a hands on way and that being embodied. 353 00:19:09,554 --> 00:19:10,784 Sensual, almost. 354 00:19:11,965 --> 00:19:15,365 And I think this made sense when Martha and I had a conversation 355 00:19:15,375 --> 00:19:19,915 because of her personal experiences and approach to learning alongside 356 00:19:19,945 --> 00:19:21,785 her professional experience. 357 00:19:23,215 --> 00:19:29,005 And this was linked in my mind to the idea of skills we used to have relating to food 358 00:19:29,005 --> 00:19:33,755 making and production that stopped being passed down for one reason or another. 359 00:19:35,935 --> 00:19:39,205 Quite often when I'm making something for Lecker, I'm 360 00:19:39,264 --> 00:19:41,095 slightly unclear about what it is. 361 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:42,760 What my point even is. 362 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,880 Everything I make starts with being curious about something, but generally I 363 00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:51,400 begin working on it without knowing fully what I actually want to say about it. 364 00:19:52,380 --> 00:19:55,310 Quite like starting here, although it can feel very uncertain. 365 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,659 It's fun, it's satisfying when it comes together, sometimes 366 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:01,599 against the odds or so it feels. 367 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:05,329 And generally I'm kind of lucky. 368 00:20:05,775 --> 00:20:07,185 Or cocky, I suppose. 369 00:20:07,435 --> 00:20:09,315 Enough to figure it out on the fly. 370 00:20:09,545 --> 00:20:10,945 And then it all comes out in the wash. 371 00:20:12,175 --> 00:20:15,934 But sometimes this approach results in asking interviewees questions 372 00:20:15,934 --> 00:20:18,005 that are extremely confusing to them. 373 00:20:18,544 --> 00:20:22,145 When I interviewed Alison Swan Parenti, the founder of the School 374 00:20:22,155 --> 00:20:26,545 of Artisan Food, we found ourselves slightly at cross purposes. 375 00:20:27,205 --> 00:20:31,525 Because what I was asking her about what the school did and the basis 376 00:20:31,525 --> 00:20:35,775 on which it was founded, It just didn't make sense to her at all. 377 00:20:36,035 --> 00:20:38,865 Alison Swan Parente: Kat, uh, I'm not quite sure what you're asking me there. 378 00:20:38,875 --> 00:20:41,875 Are you asking me I guess just, 379 00:20:43,895 --> 00:20:48,564 Lucy: was it, did, was it, how can I rephrase it more, um, it was more 380 00:20:48,564 --> 00:20:54,625 just coming off the back of not necessarily knowing how the passing of 381 00:20:54,625 --> 00:21:00,780 information previously happened when it came to learning how to make things. 382 00:21:01,770 --> 00:21:04,210 And was that a gap that you wanted to fill? 383 00:21:04,250 --> 00:21:05,190 Alison Swan Parente: Yes, it was. 384 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:08,900 But when I started the School of Artisan Food, It really 385 00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:10,790 wasn't about cooking skills. 386 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,250 Um, it was about making skills really. 387 00:21:14,290 --> 00:21:18,599 And, and that sounds a bit kind of prissy to put it that way, but I was 388 00:21:18,650 --> 00:21:21,760 quite interested in mass production. 389 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:28,229 It was to do with how to make bread for the sake of making a staple. 390 00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:32,660 And so really, what I've always been interested in is 391 00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:34,640 establishing small businesses. 392 00:21:35,225 --> 00:21:38,445 with what we produce, what we teach in the school. 393 00:21:38,595 --> 00:21:40,355 So it really is roots into work. 394 00:21:40,355 --> 00:21:44,745 So it's so that you can work in somebody else's small business or you can 395 00:21:44,745 --> 00:21:46,565 start a small business of your own. 396 00:21:46,995 --> 00:21:49,375 So it's much more that than domestic cooking. 397 00:21:49,405 --> 00:21:54,354 The first thing we thought of was teaching people how to make food that's 398 00:21:54,355 --> 00:21:56,615 going to produce a living for them. 399 00:21:56,615 --> 00:22:01,435 That's a kind of dignified living and a living that is both creative 400 00:22:01,885 --> 00:22:07,070 and pretty helpful to other people and good fun and producing, you know, 401 00:22:07,070 --> 00:22:09,980 it's good for the culture really to have nice food that tastes nice. 402 00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:11,850 It's um, what's wrong with that? 403 00:22:13,029 --> 00:22:17,050 I didn't have very much to do with schools or artisan food 404 00:22:17,050 --> 00:22:18,629 before I founded the school. 405 00:22:18,710 --> 00:22:25,270 I was a child psychotherapist and I worked in the national health service, but. 406 00:22:25,555 --> 00:22:29,245 It is actually a very logical progression from being a child 407 00:22:29,245 --> 00:22:31,395 psychotherapist to opening a food school. 408 00:22:32,035 --> 00:22:36,135 Because one of the things that I found working with challenging and 409 00:22:37,035 --> 00:22:41,794 difficult and usually very nice adolescents was that they were very 410 00:22:41,794 --> 00:22:43,694 much helped by having something to do. 411 00:22:44,355 --> 00:22:48,184 And that, something that they could really succeed in. 412 00:22:48,964 --> 00:22:53,215 And so one of the reasons that I started the School of Artisan Food was, to do 413 00:22:53,215 --> 00:22:59,285 with providing roots into work for people who find it hard to get that together. 414 00:23:00,554 --> 00:23:03,395 When we were founded, we really thought we were going to be teaching 415 00:23:03,405 --> 00:23:05,524 fermentation more than anything else. 416 00:23:05,905 --> 00:23:08,175 And if you think about it, what we're doing is thinking 417 00:23:08,175 --> 00:23:09,524 about fermentation a lot. 418 00:23:09,524 --> 00:23:14,795 We're thinking about the way that bread is made through a fermentation process. 419 00:23:14,795 --> 00:23:18,065 Cheese, clearly, there's even a little bit of fermentation in 420 00:23:18,075 --> 00:23:19,585 salamis and things like that. 421 00:23:20,304 --> 00:23:26,915 So, Really, in a way, one of the benefits is, is really exposing people 422 00:23:26,915 --> 00:23:29,365 to the miracles of nature in a way. 423 00:23:29,804 --> 00:23:35,794 Just how, if you put several ingredients together, they produce these wonderful, 424 00:23:35,845 --> 00:23:40,465 very simple ways to feed you and help you, help make you healthy. 425 00:23:41,024 --> 00:23:42,454 But they are very simple. 426 00:23:42,454 --> 00:23:45,169 I think that one of the benefits that we can take from them. 427 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,980 pass on is that good food is actually incredibly simple. 428 00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:51,830 One of the things was just a scarcity of skills. 429 00:23:51,870 --> 00:23:53,590 You know, I'd started a bakery. 430 00:23:54,270 --> 00:23:59,730 We wanted to make long fermentation breads and there was very, very few 431 00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:01,360 people in the country at that point. 432 00:24:01,389 --> 00:24:02,509 I mean, it's hard to believe now. 433 00:24:03,100 --> 00:24:04,240 who knew how to do it. 434 00:24:04,340 --> 00:24:08,420 There were two bakeries in London that were producing artisan bread. 435 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:13,420 There was Andrew Whitley up in Malmoby in Cumberland producing artisan bread 436 00:24:13,420 --> 00:24:16,910 and there were very very few other people doing it and they didn't know how to 437 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,620 do it or where they should be doing it. 438 00:24:19,179 --> 00:24:26,645 So a school was really a place to um, teach, methods that were really dying 439 00:24:26,645 --> 00:24:29,655 out and we managed to do that actually. 440 00:24:29,655 --> 00:24:33,594 As soon as we built the school it became clear that it was a place for 441 00:24:33,594 --> 00:24:37,605 people who had really wanted to pass on their skills but didn't have the 442 00:24:37,605 --> 00:24:44,280 infrastructure in order to do that and so we built Uh, we had a capital 443 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:49,110 project, building the building, but we also, you know, put in place a booking 444 00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:53,980 system and all of those things, which did make it much easier for people. 445 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:59,979 So partly I started the school to provide a place where people could teach, rather 446 00:24:59,979 --> 00:25:01,389 than a place where people could learn. 447 00:25:01,399 --> 00:25:04,439 So it was obviously started with both of those, but the teaching has 448 00:25:04,439 --> 00:25:07,389 been a very, kind of, um, primary. 449 00:25:08,925 --> 00:25:10,065 Lucy: Mmm, that's really interesting. 450 00:25:10,065 --> 00:25:14,145 And I suppose, obviously, the, the side advantage is that you would have 451 00:25:14,145 --> 00:25:19,255 access to great bread, which, if that's something that you were keen to eat, that 452 00:25:19,255 --> 00:25:23,965 feels like a great Was this something that you had learned to make yourself 453 00:25:24,034 --> 00:25:25,605 in the process of setting up the school? 454 00:25:25,964 --> 00:25:28,954 Alison Swan Parente: I had, I'd learned to make good bread 455 00:25:29,034 --> 00:25:32,064 a long time ago in America. 456 00:25:32,704 --> 00:25:34,984 I was living in a communal household. 457 00:25:36,125 --> 00:25:38,795 Lots of people in the household baked bread. 458 00:25:38,805 --> 00:25:42,705 The men baked the bread, and so it was quite inspiring. 459 00:25:43,385 --> 00:25:44,765 And it was pretty good bread. 460 00:25:44,775 --> 00:25:47,305 It wasn't actually really good bread that we made. 461 00:25:47,365 --> 00:25:49,145 It was, um, yeasted. 462 00:25:49,155 --> 00:25:51,315 It wasn't long fermentation. 463 00:25:51,695 --> 00:25:56,404 But it was much, much better than anything that you could buy in a supermarket. 464 00:25:56,634 --> 00:26:00,599 I'm really keen on that still being something that's, you know, 465 00:26:00,889 --> 00:26:02,409 in the general culture, you know. 466 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,949 But the school itself, the thing that differentiates itself from or 467 00:26:06,949 --> 00:26:12,030 differentiates the school from other places is really that we're interested 468 00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:16,949 in pre industrial techniques with food. 469 00:26:16,990 --> 00:26:19,264 That's what artisan skills are really. 470 00:26:19,264 --> 00:26:25,190 They're, uh, skills that, um, have a lot to do with knowing where things come 471 00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:29,320 from, knowing the feel of things, knowing how to make them, knowing what their 472 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,440 history is, and all of those things. 473 00:26:32,045 --> 00:26:35,465 Lucy: It's funny listening back to this, having finally worked 474 00:26:35,495 --> 00:26:37,205 out what the episode is about. 475 00:26:37,895 --> 00:26:42,455 And considering that Alison had just carefully explained to me that her 476 00:26:42,455 --> 00:26:47,324 work with the school had been entirely business focused, I still just couldn't 477 00:26:47,325 --> 00:26:52,405 help myself trying to burrow in her personal story, searching for hints of 478 00:26:52,525 --> 00:26:54,615 skills being passed down hand to hand. 479 00:26:56,385 --> 00:26:59,165 I think it's really because I like so many of us. 480 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,630 I have such an emotional connection to making food, and also it's not 481 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,180 how I make my living day to day, which probably allows me to rose 482 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,490 tint it slightly, or quite a lot. 483 00:27:11,090 --> 00:27:15,439 And I'm so grateful to Alison for being so generous in really listening to me, 484 00:27:15,890 --> 00:27:21,400 really deeply considering the angle that I was trying to come from, but then very 485 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,899 clearly clarifying and explaining her position and the school's so clearly. 486 00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:27,010 I learnt a lot from it. 487 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,084 And She actually did reflect a lot more on her personal 488 00:27:31,084 --> 00:27:32,975 experiences of learning to cook too. 489 00:27:33,024 --> 00:27:36,155 Alison Swan Parente: We were talking about the difference between learning 490 00:27:36,155 --> 00:27:40,984 about food from other people and in the company of other people and learning 491 00:27:40,985 --> 00:27:45,724 about food remotely and through cookbooks and what those differences are and I 492 00:27:45,735 --> 00:27:49,614 was thinking about it and I think that I learned some of my actual cooking 493 00:27:49,614 --> 00:27:56,345 skills from cookbooks much more than any other way because You know, everybody 494 00:27:56,345 --> 00:28:00,315 has their own cookbook, but people love a particular cookbook that's helped 495 00:28:00,315 --> 00:28:02,995 them along and mine was Julia Child. 496 00:28:03,005 --> 00:28:07,175 So I just loved following those recipes because she goes, and then 497 00:28:07,175 --> 00:28:11,085 you do this, and then you get his wooden spoon, and then you do this, 498 00:28:11,284 --> 00:28:13,324 and in the end, it's pretty good food. 499 00:28:13,334 --> 00:28:17,565 So she's a fantastically good step by step tutor. 500 00:28:18,205 --> 00:28:23,300 And I did actually really enjoyed doing that on my own and making the mistakes. 501 00:28:23,770 --> 00:28:27,170 So having classes is a very, very different thing. 502 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,920 There's much more to a class in a way. 503 00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:34,880 There's much more, uh, in terms of human contact. 504 00:28:34,889 --> 00:28:39,264 There's much more in the way of being able to share with people how things work. 505 00:28:39,405 --> 00:28:44,764 feel and how things taste but I think I actually think both of them are very 506 00:28:44,764 --> 00:28:50,695 good ways to learn to make food and um, uh, that a cookbook in a way on 507 00:28:50,695 --> 00:28:55,485 your own is one thing and a cooking class is an entirely different thing 508 00:28:55,725 --> 00:28:57,334 and both of them are pretty good. 509 00:28:57,649 --> 00:29:02,139 I'm pretty old, I'm a post war baby and the women of my mother's 510 00:29:02,139 --> 00:29:06,779 generation had learned to cook in quite a creative way because they 511 00:29:06,779 --> 00:29:08,259 didn't have much to cook with. 512 00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:12,160 They remembered rationing, they remembered actually cooking a lot of stuff from 513 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:18,770 allotments and gardens, and so the kind of cooking that I learned was pretty frugal. 514 00:29:19,490 --> 00:29:23,730 And that was a great influence on me, but also there was another influence, 515 00:29:23,730 --> 00:29:28,190 which was the kind of wonderful 50s cooking that went on in my mother's 516 00:29:28,190 --> 00:29:30,370 kitchen if she gave a dinner party. 517 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,119 Every day she would cook wonderful, kind of, you know, good, wholesome 518 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,619 food, but a dinner party was an entirely different matter. 519 00:29:39,189 --> 00:29:40,279 Lucy: What would she make? 520 00:29:40,369 --> 00:29:45,150 Alison Swan Parente: Baked grapefruit with a glacé cherry on the top, first course. 521 00:29:46,325 --> 00:29:50,155 Second course, either kebabs made with a tent peg. 522 00:29:50,485 --> 00:29:54,095 Do you remember those kind of screw, metal screw tent pegs? 523 00:29:54,665 --> 00:29:58,965 Lamb, and then a pepper which was really unusual. 524 00:29:59,045 --> 00:30:01,205 I mean you had to go to Worthing to get a pepper. 525 00:30:01,885 --> 00:30:05,065 Then, uh, a bit of tomato and a mushroom. 526 00:30:06,155 --> 00:30:07,665 And straight into the oven. 527 00:30:07,835 --> 00:30:10,685 So that was a very sophisticated second course. 528 00:30:10,715 --> 00:30:16,445 Or there was also tuna bake, which you make by putting one can of 529 00:30:16,445 --> 00:30:23,065 tuna, one can of Campbell's mushroom soup, one packet of crisps, and a 530 00:30:23,065 --> 00:30:25,085 lot of mousetrap cheese on the top. 531 00:30:25,195 --> 00:30:26,425 Again, in the oven. 532 00:30:26,435 --> 00:30:26,905 Success! 533 00:30:28,715 --> 00:30:32,915 And I can't remember what her desserts were. 534 00:30:33,335 --> 00:30:36,595 By that time, you know, you were completely floored. 535 00:30:36,665 --> 00:30:39,155 Lucy: The ten peg kebab is inspired. 536 00:30:39,155 --> 00:30:39,555 I love that. 537 00:30:40,105 --> 00:30:40,965 Alison Swan Parente: It's very good. 538 00:30:41,455 --> 00:30:46,555 And then she also had some very good cookbooks, really, to speak 539 00:30:46,555 --> 00:30:48,215 to what you're interested in today. 540 00:30:48,215 --> 00:30:52,565 So she did actually I don't think my mother ever went to a cooking class. 541 00:30:53,225 --> 00:30:57,345 She was quite competitive with her other friends, so they would talk about cooking. 542 00:30:58,015 --> 00:31:01,935 But she did have the cookbooks that everybody had. 543 00:31:01,955 --> 00:31:04,445 There was Constance Spry's cooking. 544 00:31:05,055 --> 00:31:09,855 She also had the Penguin Elizabeth David cookbooks. 545 00:31:10,635 --> 00:31:14,895 And she taught herself from those, and she taught herself very well from those. 546 00:31:14,925 --> 00:31:18,094 Lucy: It's really interesting that she, you talk about her learning from you. 547 00:31:18,095 --> 00:31:21,575 from books, I guess, rather than from her parents. 548 00:31:21,575 --> 00:31:23,885 I mean, obviously I don't want to make any assumptions about what her 549 00:31:23,885 --> 00:31:27,685 relationship with her parents were like, but that in context of what you're 550 00:31:27,685 --> 00:31:32,035 saying about pre industrial food is quite interesting that that almost has 551 00:31:32,515 --> 00:31:36,275 the, the passing down of information from generation to generation hasn't 552 00:31:36,275 --> 00:31:40,455 always been that fluid or, um, seamless. 553 00:31:41,715 --> 00:31:43,005 Alison Swan Parente: I don't know. 554 00:31:43,490 --> 00:31:47,050 where she learned to cook or what her relationship was with her mother. 555 00:31:47,060 --> 00:31:51,360 She never talked about her mother or what her relationship 556 00:31:51,370 --> 00:31:52,900 was with her mother's cooking. 557 00:31:53,780 --> 00:31:57,500 She talked about her mother but she never talked about 558 00:31:57,510 --> 00:31:58,820 the food that her mother made. 559 00:32:00,225 --> 00:32:05,095 Lucy: To come back to this idea of creating roots into work, this was 560 00:32:05,095 --> 00:32:10,615 something Martha, somewhat unexpectedly to her, put to practice very, very 561 00:32:10,655 --> 00:32:12,915 quickly into her time at the school. 562 00:32:15,275 --> 00:32:17,555 Martha Brown: A few months after the course, or even while the course was 563 00:32:17,565 --> 00:32:21,555 going on, I actually kind of found a shop in Sheffield and you had to 564 00:32:21,555 --> 00:32:25,770 write a business plan as part of the course and, uh, Kind of was like, 565 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,520 Oh, we'll, we'll look at rents. 566 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,890 We'll look at shops and see what's around. 567 00:32:29,910 --> 00:32:35,510 And it kind of turned from a complete made up scenario to actually a reality. 568 00:32:36,460 --> 00:32:39,950 So yeah, I went from not thinking, yeah, it's a bit kind of. 569 00:32:40,785 --> 00:32:45,875 ridiculous, I think, and not the ideal way to start a business. 570 00:32:45,915 --> 00:32:50,395 I think like, go and work in bakeries, get lots of professional experience, 571 00:32:50,435 --> 00:32:54,245 make mistakes in other people's businesses, do you know what I mean? 572 00:32:54,275 --> 00:32:55,585 Like, rather than your own. 573 00:32:55,905 --> 00:32:59,525 But yeah, so I left the course in July 2012 and opened in 574 00:32:59,525 --> 00:33:01,645 September, uh, in November 2012. 575 00:33:01,675 --> 00:33:06,395 So I just kind of got the keys literally like a month after leaving. 576 00:33:06,885 --> 00:33:08,055 And yeah, opened up you. 577 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,290 tiny bakery. 578 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,050 It was kind of in a retail shop. 579 00:33:11,550 --> 00:33:13,470 So it was all one space. 580 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,889 So I wasn't kind of having to bake somewhere else and then transport it. 581 00:33:16,890 --> 00:33:18,400 It was just a single room. 582 00:33:18,740 --> 00:33:20,080 Everyone could see the process. 583 00:33:20,130 --> 00:33:23,120 Everyone could see what was going on, but that kind of felt manageable. 584 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,860 You know, it wasn't big, scary, rent, big, scary production unit. 585 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:34,015 So yeah, Yeah, set up, was in that shop for two years, moved to a bigger premises, 586 00:33:34,215 --> 00:33:39,935 opened a cafe, opened kind of a restaurant y cafe upstairs, expanded into the shop 587 00:33:39,935 --> 00:33:44,165 next door, did bread classes and supper clubs and pizza nights and markets 588 00:33:44,165 --> 00:33:46,725 and it just kind of grew organically. 589 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,370 over time. 590 00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:54,060 And actually a lot of what I enjoyed about it was the business development 591 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,190 as well as the kind of, I guess there's that creativity in that, and then 592 00:33:57,190 --> 00:34:00,460 there's also the creativity in the production and the product development. 593 00:34:00,490 --> 00:34:03,390 And they were the two things I kind of loved the most. 594 00:34:03,390 --> 00:34:06,880 It was never that I was particularly interested in being a business owner. 595 00:34:07,950 --> 00:34:14,155 That was just, um, a thing that, that happened and quite significantly as well. 596 00:34:14,195 --> 00:34:14,445 Yeah. 597 00:34:14,445 --> 00:34:20,055 So I did that for, for 10 years, kind of had 30 staff, uh, kind of across three 598 00:34:20,055 --> 00:34:24,215 floors of a building and out in the yard and everyone was kind of packed into 599 00:34:25,165 --> 00:34:27,005 whatever little space we could have. 600 00:34:27,375 --> 00:34:32,225 And yeah, I've run through COVID really well, but I think like that really kind 601 00:34:32,225 --> 00:34:35,175 of, Weighed on me and took it out of me. 602 00:34:35,175 --> 00:34:39,195 And while I really wanted, I had so many exciting grand plans for the business, 603 00:34:39,195 --> 00:34:42,105 I think I kind of got to the point where I was like, I think I probably 604 00:34:42,105 --> 00:34:46,585 need to start thinking about life outside of the bakery and what else. 605 00:34:47,230 --> 00:34:49,220 I could do or have headspace for. 606 00:34:49,750 --> 00:34:55,930 So yeah, I sold it after 10 years, had a bit of time off and then found 607 00:34:55,930 --> 00:34:58,460 myself back at the school last summer. 608 00:34:58,460 --> 00:35:01,779 So kind of summer 2023 saying, what kind of jobs have you got? 609 00:35:01,780 --> 00:35:02,410 Have you got anything? 610 00:35:02,670 --> 00:35:06,200 Like, I'm just quite interested in, like, I could just come and 611 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,190 help out or is there teaching? 612 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,975 And then they were like, Oh, actually we need a patisserie and vinnoiserie 613 00:35:11,975 --> 00:35:13,875 teacher on our foundation degree. 614 00:35:13,905 --> 00:35:16,005 And so I was like, amazing, that sounds great. 615 00:35:17,015 --> 00:35:21,415 So I've been back at the school since last summer teaching, but also 616 00:35:21,425 --> 00:35:24,365 working as a technician, kind of supporting other tutors on courses, 617 00:35:24,405 --> 00:35:26,085 um, doing that kind of organization. 618 00:35:26,295 --> 00:35:27,215 And I've really enjoyed both. 619 00:35:27,215 --> 00:35:31,855 I really enjoy that kind of organization side and then kind of, I guess I 620 00:35:31,855 --> 00:35:36,020 know what what teachers need because I'm also doing the teaching, um, 621 00:35:36,030 --> 00:35:37,380 which is a really nice balance. 622 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:38,130 And so when 623 00:35:38,130 --> 00:35:39,720 Lucy: you started teaching. 624 00:35:39,830 --> 00:35:40,300 Yeah. 625 00:35:40,330 --> 00:35:44,120 What was that like to go from kind of student to teacher? 626 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,410 Martha Brown: I think it definitely again took me a little while to really 627 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:55,960 understand the kind of points in the day where like, someone was going to go and 628 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,720 do something before I'd said, and that you need to kind of catch those or give those 629 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:04,660 little tidbits of advice, like, before something happens, because it's not like 630 00:36:04,670 --> 00:36:07,980 if you're stood in front of a class and you're saying things to people and you're 631 00:36:07,980 --> 00:36:10,850 hoping that they understand all your, your, your kind of thinking they are. 632 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,920 When you're, when you're teaching a practical class, everyone 633 00:36:13,930 --> 00:36:15,200 has to go away with a product. 634 00:36:15,250 --> 00:36:18,870 And actually if someone is falling behind, you can't just abandon them. 635 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,550 I mean, it's like, we've got to move as, as fast as the slowest person 636 00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:25,780 in the room, which is, which is. 637 00:36:26,110 --> 00:36:26,730 Totally fine. 638 00:36:26,730 --> 00:36:29,500 And actually there's a problem with being effectively too quick and 639 00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:31,020 not listening at the same time. 640 00:36:31,450 --> 00:36:34,590 So it was a hundred, it was a massive learning experience for me, but 641 00:36:34,590 --> 00:36:40,510 also, I guess I knew what had been useful for me when I was learning. 642 00:36:40,910 --> 00:36:48,140 So I could kind of try and, Yeah, like I even think that from when I was learning, 643 00:36:48,390 --> 00:36:53,400 I remember kind of scribbles on bits of paper that tutors did to describe 644 00:36:53,410 --> 00:36:55,660 kind of fermentation or a wheat berry. 645 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,870 And like, every single class I would draw the same image that I 646 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,310 think is probably ingrained in my brain from when I was learning. 647 00:37:01,540 --> 00:37:01,840 Lucy: Yeah. 648 00:37:01,990 --> 00:37:05,020 Martha Brown: Because, but that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean to say that. 649 00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:08,610 everyone in the room learns the same way as I do, so I think you've 650 00:37:08,610 --> 00:37:14,309 really got to have a range of ways of explaining things or demoing things. 651 00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:17,520 And that's also the nice thing about being in person, you know, if something's 652 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,060 not working for you, the teacher should really be able to be like, okay, try 653 00:37:21,060 --> 00:37:27,360 this instead and offer that range of, of different methods and techniques, 654 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,370 because there is so many in Brad and everyone probably teaches in a different 655 00:37:31,370 --> 00:37:32,660 way and everything will kind of. 656 00:37:33,995 --> 00:37:36,875 Yeah, things will click for people, I think, in a different way. 657 00:37:37,035 --> 00:37:40,255 Lucy: What is it, do you think, that makes people really good at that? 658 00:37:40,255 --> 00:37:41,424 I 659 00:37:43,205 --> 00:37:43,545 Alison Swan Parente: don't know. 660 00:37:43,555 --> 00:37:46,575 I think some people are good at teaching and some people aren't good at teaching. 661 00:37:47,005 --> 00:37:49,775 I mean, I think that's true if you go to any school in the country, 662 00:37:49,775 --> 00:37:52,525 you'll see there are good teachers and not such good teachers. 663 00:37:53,035 --> 00:37:56,680 But I think in order to be even begin to be a good teacher, you 664 00:37:56,690 --> 00:38:00,890 have to really be interested in your subject and like your subject. 665 00:38:01,390 --> 00:38:08,470 And you have to be able to transmit that enthusiasm and, and all of those feelings 666 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,070 about what you're doing to other people. 667 00:38:11,220 --> 00:38:15,430 One of the things we've been incredibly lucky about with this school is that, 668 00:38:16,825 --> 00:38:20,655 The people who started teaching here, really from the beginning, started 669 00:38:20,655 --> 00:38:24,315 teaching because they really loved their subject and they really didn't 670 00:38:24,325 --> 00:38:29,005 want to leave the world without having taught it to other people, 671 00:38:29,045 --> 00:38:30,745 taught their skills to other people. 672 00:38:31,465 --> 00:38:37,735 And so we've pretty much always had very good, very enthusiastic teachers. 673 00:38:38,325 --> 00:38:41,545 Lucy: I think I agree with this idea that some people are good at 674 00:38:41,545 --> 00:38:43,554 teaching and some people aren't. 675 00:38:44,135 --> 00:38:48,160 And I also think that Some people love to learn, and some 676 00:38:48,170 --> 00:38:49,360 people aren't that bothered. 677 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,620 For the people that love to learn, for them, us maybe, would I tentatively say 678 00:38:55,620 --> 00:39:02,230 this about myself, it's impossible to ever really stop wanting to learn new 679 00:39:02,250 --> 00:39:04,270 things, to throw yourself into them. 680 00:39:06,030 --> 00:39:07,990 Martha's back in the classroom herself. 681 00:39:08,580 --> 00:39:13,230 You've now Gone back to learning full time, well, full time again. 682 00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:16,480 What prompted the decision to study interior architecture? 683 00:39:17,210 --> 00:39:20,320 Martha Brown: I think, so I did, I guess I ended up doing 684 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,740 a lot of it in my own business. 685 00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:25,510 I kind of, I guess, well, a lot of people. 686 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,700 Who, I don't know how, a lot of people seemingly have the money to employ kind 687 00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:34,100 of interior design stuff, but like I didn't, but also I really wanted to do it. 688 00:39:34,130 --> 00:39:38,470 I really enjoyed designing the spaces, even the kind of really functional 689 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,560 spaces, the kitchens and working out the workflows and how we could be 690 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,030 efficient because we weren't in a big kind of rectangular warehousy type shape. 691 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:53,230 We were in kind of small, old terrace shops where it was really important to be. 692 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,430 I just think I really enjoyed getting geeky with it and working tessellation of, 693 00:39:57,820 --> 00:39:59,440 you know, how things would fit together. 694 00:39:59,910 --> 00:40:04,290 And actually as part of the, the kind of application for uni, I had to write 695 00:40:04,290 --> 00:40:08,230 a personal statement and I am really terrible at writing anything like that 696 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:13,870 or about myself, but like the kind of, it was quite weirdly cathartic to think 697 00:40:13,890 --> 00:40:21,000 back and think actually food and design or spaces have always been really part 698 00:40:21,060 --> 00:40:27,430 of my existence, even as like, a child, like I designed my room when I was 11 and 699 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:28,980 picked all the colors and the furniture. 700 00:40:28,980 --> 00:40:31,710 And then when I was 14, I wanted to move into a bigger room downstairs. 701 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:33,690 So I was like saved up and bought the furniture. 702 00:40:33,710 --> 00:40:38,220 Like I poured over the Ikea catalog when I was like in my early 703 00:40:38,220 --> 00:40:41,920 teens and would kind of draw over furniture and then like redesign it. 704 00:40:42,150 --> 00:40:46,270 And then, and I just hadn't really thought that that was, It's not a strange 705 00:40:46,270 --> 00:40:49,330 thing to do, but like an interest, it was just something that I did. 706 00:40:49,330 --> 00:40:51,850 And then when I look back, I was like, Oh, actually, maybe I've actually 707 00:40:51,850 --> 00:40:53,510 been into this for quite a while. 708 00:40:54,470 --> 00:40:59,170 And yeah, I, I kind of, I, I didn't finish my A levels, um, cause I got, 709 00:40:59,220 --> 00:41:01,400 I started feeling well after GCSEs. 710 00:41:01,525 --> 00:41:04,265 It's about 16 and then it took a year and a half, I was 711 00:41:04,265 --> 00:41:05,345 diagnosed with chronic fatigue. 712 00:41:06,715 --> 00:41:09,605 And so actually when everyone else was going out into the world 713 00:41:09,605 --> 00:41:13,135 and going to uni, my kind of life and world shrunk quite a lot. 714 00:41:13,145 --> 00:41:18,255 And actually then home became really important and it was where I could create 715 00:41:18,255 --> 00:41:21,545 things and where I could, it was the thing that I had control of, I guess. 716 00:41:21,555 --> 00:41:27,005 So actually cooking and my house or my interior space. 717 00:41:27,810 --> 00:41:32,290 yeah, was the thing that I had access to, which now makes a lot of sense 718 00:41:32,490 --> 00:41:34,800 that maybe that's why I'm interested. 719 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,350 I'm also very affected by spaces, whether it's like architecture or the 720 00:41:40,350 --> 00:41:42,100 design of things or the feel of things. 721 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:49,645 I think that's always, um, part of my Yeah, uh, part of the world that I 722 00:41:49,645 --> 00:41:53,395 kind of feel and see, I see the like little things, um, and so it's quite 723 00:41:53,395 --> 00:41:55,395 nice to be delving into that now. 724 00:41:55,445 --> 00:41:56,625 But definitely feels related. 725 00:41:58,725 --> 00:42:03,305 Lucy: You have been doing this work with the school for quite a while now, 726 00:42:03,545 --> 00:42:10,455 and on sort of reflecting back, what do you think was it about everything 727 00:42:10,455 --> 00:42:14,715 you'd learned as a psychotherapist that made it such a logical step? 728 00:42:15,535 --> 00:42:20,195 Alison Swan Parente: I think that I'm very interested in what makes people 729 00:42:20,275 --> 00:42:28,645 tick, but I'm particularly interested in the social conditions, not just the 730 00:42:29,245 --> 00:42:32,765 emotional conditions, but the social conditions that make people tick. 731 00:42:33,705 --> 00:42:38,275 Because I, I started off as a psychotherapist working with children, 732 00:42:38,275 --> 00:42:41,895 but then I did a lot of work with the Women's Therapy Centre in London. 733 00:42:42,925 --> 00:42:47,085 And so, that was in the, it was founded in the late 70s. 734 00:42:47,195 --> 00:42:51,515 And we were a particularly feminist enterprise. 735 00:42:51,565 --> 00:42:54,025 We were thinking about women's psychology. 736 00:42:54,385 --> 00:42:58,415 Not just because of, um, parental influences and psychodynamic 737 00:42:58,425 --> 00:43:03,905 influences, but also the social influences that meant that women 738 00:43:03,915 --> 00:43:08,405 were showing so many more psychiatric symptoms under certain conditions. 739 00:43:09,025 --> 00:43:13,305 And so we were thinking that if you're thinking about women's psychology, 740 00:43:13,315 --> 00:43:18,175 you have to think about it in a social context and in a political context. 741 00:43:19,165 --> 00:43:22,730 And I think that I've always been interested in looking at 742 00:43:22,730 --> 00:43:27,420 food in the same kind of way, that it isn't just for eating. 743 00:43:27,740 --> 00:43:31,580 You have to look at how it's produced, why it's produced, who it's produced 744 00:43:31,610 --> 00:43:37,340 by, and think about it both socially and politically in order to understand 745 00:43:37,790 --> 00:43:45,570 how to get rid of barriers to health and to think about how we can think 746 00:43:45,570 --> 00:43:50,400 about, for example, the food system And how it affects things like climate. 747 00:43:51,250 --> 00:43:56,450 All of these things are not just to do with eating or farming or producing 748 00:43:56,460 --> 00:43:58,620 food, they're to do with big systems. 749 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,480 And I don't think you can teach the slightest thing around food without 750 00:44:03,660 --> 00:44:06,130 knowing a lot about its context. 751 00:44:06,510 --> 00:44:10,790 So I think that, that's a really torturous way to go from psychotherapy 752 00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:16,870 to food, but it is to do with thinking about very visceral things, which is how 753 00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:23,070 we feel and how we, but also to think about how many different influences 754 00:44:23,070 --> 00:44:25,830 there are over those primary processes. 755 00:44:34,780 --> 00:44:37,650 Lucy: Lekker is hosted and produced by me, Lucy Dearlove. 756 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,970 Thanks to Martha Brown and Alison Swan Parente for being part of this episode. 757 00:44:43,525 --> 00:44:46,205 And also to Sally Ann Hunt, Kevin Roberts, and everyone else at the 758 00:44:46,325 --> 00:44:50,535 School of Artisan Food, especially Emily Leary, who organised us all being 759 00:44:50,535 --> 00:44:51,925 there on the day that we were invited. 760 00:44:51,995 --> 00:44:53,615 It was such a great day, I loved it. 761 00:44:54,455 --> 00:44:57,185 You can find out more about the School of Artisan Food and the courses 762 00:44:57,195 --> 00:45:01,045 they run on their website, as well as the diplomas and longer courses. 763 00:45:01,095 --> 00:45:05,725 They do lots of short half day courses in things like ice cream and pork pie making. 764 00:45:06,235 --> 00:45:07,585 Not together, yet. 765 00:45:08,235 --> 00:45:13,230 And Just a really, I think it would just be a great way to spend a bit of 766 00:45:13,230 --> 00:45:17,630 time in the beautiful countryside where the school is on the Welbeck estate. 767 00:45:18,460 --> 00:45:22,230 There are also still places on this year's four week summer school, though 768 00:45:22,270 --> 00:45:25,620 accommodation is now full you can still do it as a non residential student. 769 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,800 Takes place in July and August and is led by the three tutors. 770 00:45:29,375 --> 00:45:33,425 that we met Martha Brown, Sally Ann Hunt and Kevin Roberts, so we'll 771 00:45:33,445 --> 00:45:38,575 cover lots of fascinating stuff relating to meat, wheat and dairy. 772 00:45:39,525 --> 00:45:42,395 Again, you can find out more about that on the School of Art 773 00:45:42,415 --> 00:45:46,595 Assigned Food website, and if you're interested, get a move on because I 774 00:45:46,595 --> 00:45:47,985 think there's only a few places left. 775 00:45:50,275 --> 00:45:52,865 The music in this episode is by Blue Dot Sessions. 776 00:45:54,325 --> 00:45:58,565 Before I go, I One reminder that you can sign up as a paid subscriber 777 00:45:58,565 --> 00:46:02,955 to support Lekha on Apple Podcasts, Patreon and now on Substack too. 778 00:46:03,565 --> 00:46:04,775 Links are in the show notes. 779 00:46:05,655 --> 00:46:08,545 Hello to any paid subscribers who are listening here. 780 00:46:08,825 --> 00:46:10,325 I'm so grateful for your support. 781 00:46:10,355 --> 00:46:10,815 Thank you. 782 00:46:12,075 --> 00:46:13,895 And thanks to all of you for listening. 783 00:46:14,265 --> 00:46:14,635 I'll be back very soon.