1 00:00:53,700 --> 00:00:56,590 JAMES GRASBY: Hello and welcome to the National Trust podcast. 2 00:00:56,599 --> 00:01:00,029 I'm James Grasby and today I'm in Nottinghamshire to visit a 3 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,680 very grand building capable of sleeping a lot of people. 4 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,750 But despite the number of beds in the property, I'm visiting 5 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,250 today and a huge kitchen garden, this is not somewhere you'd have 6 00:01:10,260 --> 00:01:12,139 wanted to visit in its heyday. 7 00:01:12,379 --> 00:01:15,650 In fact, if you turned up at the Workhouse, you'd have fallen 8 00:01:15,660 --> 00:01:19,080 nearly as low as you could. And in the Victorian era, that 9 00:01:19,089 --> 00:01:20,720 wasn't a very nice place to be. 10 00:01:29,860 --> 00:01:34,650 I'm, I'm slightly bewildered I have to say looking at this 11 00:01:34,660 --> 00:01:40,029 great Georgian building, brick, three stories slate roof, very 12 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,529 handsome front door painted in blue, casement windows prettily 13 00:01:43,540 --> 00:01:46,839 arranged. This doesn't look to me like doom and gloom. 14 00:01:48,690 --> 00:01:51,709 FIONA LEWIN: Hello, James, I'm Fiona Lewin and I'm the Senior 15 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,580 Collections and House Officer here at the Workhouse infirmary 16 00:01:54,900 --> 00:01:59,239 in Southwell, or Southwell as the locals like to call it. 17 00:01:59,239 --> 00:02:01,319 JAMES GRASBY: Fiona it's a pleasure to meet you. I've come 18 00:02:01,330 --> 00:02:05,169 up a leaf line lane through this what looks like an ornamental 19 00:02:05,180 --> 00:02:08,259 garden and in the background, this great Georgian building. 20 00:02:08,270 --> 00:02:10,389 FIONA LEWIN: It would have felt very desperate actually, if you 21 00:02:10,399 --> 00:02:13,979 were stood in this spot 200 years ago, people who came here 22 00:02:13,990 --> 00:02:17,160 were rock bottom destitute. You can imagine yourself walking up 23 00:02:17,169 --> 00:02:19,699 this path, not quite knowing what's going to happen to you, 24 00:02:19,869 --> 00:02:21,990 but knowing that your future could be quite bleak here. 25 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,520 JAMES GRASBY: Fiona, history is clearly woven out of documents 26 00:02:24,529 --> 00:02:27,380 and places, tangible places, and this great building has now 27 00:02:27,389 --> 00:02:32,089 become really a monument, a memorial, to people whose lives 28 00:02:32,100 --> 00:02:34,770 could have vanished into oblivion. 29 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,259 FIONA LEWIN: Yes. It really does stand as a testament to the, 30 00:02:38,259 --> 00:02:41,089 probably, thousands of people who would have lived in this 31 00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:43,949 building and buildings like it all up and down the country. And 32 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,559 many more of us can trace our family history back to 33 00:02:46,570 --> 00:02:49,509 institutions like this as opposed to the grand country 34 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:50,679 houses, unfortunately. 35 00:02:50,820 --> 00:02:53,160 But by the end of the day, James, you'll have a much 36 00:02:53,169 --> 00:02:56,559 clearer idea of the types of people who lived in the 37 00:02:56,570 --> 00:03:00,619 Workhouse. To begin with your tour, we're going to discover 38 00:03:00,630 --> 00:03:03,520 what it would have been like for you as a single man coming to 39 00:03:03,529 --> 00:03:06,059 the Workhouse back then. So we're going to wizz you back to 40 00:03:06,070 --> 00:03:09,490 1871 which is a census year. So we know there was an inmate 41 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:11,940 called William Antcliffe and you're going to be him. 42 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,160 JAMES GRASBY: Fiona. I'll be pleased to get out of this rain. 43 00:03:14,169 --> 00:03:15,229 But did you say an inmate. 44 00:03:16,029 --> 00:03:17,949 FIONA LEWIN: That's what you'd be known as when you arrived at 45 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,419 the Workhouse. So I'm going to take you around now to the 46 00:03:20,429 --> 00:03:22,820 entrance where the paupers arrived. I'm going to go and 47 00:03:22,830 --> 00:03:27,899 take you to meet the master who in 1871 was a man called George 48 00:03:27,910 --> 00:03:28,070 Shaw. 49 00:03:29,020 --> 00:03:31,020 JAMES GRASBY: I feel a heavy feeling coming over me. 50 00:03:31,369 --> 00:03:37,050 FIONA LEWIN: That's probably fair, yes. 51 00:03:37,050 --> 00:03:38,520 JAMES GRASBY: Fiona, I think I can hear him coming. 52 00:03:43,070 --> 00:03:49,860 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: Porter. Porter. Where is that man? Who 53 00:03:49,869 --> 00:03:50,419 are you? 54 00:03:50,490 --> 00:03:52,309 JAMES GRASBY: Good morning, George, I'm William 55 00:03:52,850 --> 00:03:53,839 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: George? 56 00:03:53,839 --> 00:03:55,839 JAMES GRASBY: Master. I'm so sorry, master. 57 00:03:59,110 --> 00:04:01,770 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: Why are you here? 58 00:04:01,779 --> 00:04:04,000 JAMES GRASBY: Fiona? Help me out? Why am I here? 59 00:04:04,110 --> 00:04:06,070 FIONA LEWIN: You've got no work and nowhere to go. 60 00:04:06,130 --> 00:04:08,770 JAMES GRASBY: Mr Shaw. Master. I've got no work and I've got 61 00:04:08,779 --> 00:04:10,039 nowhere to go. 62 00:04:10,369 --> 00:04:12,259 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: And what authority have you got if any to 63 00:04:12,270 --> 00:04:12,929 come here? 64 00:04:13,830 --> 00:04:16,339 JAMES GRASBY: Master. I've been to see the relieving officer and 65 00:04:16,350 --> 00:04:19,230 he's asked me to come here to ask for your help. 66 00:04:19,269 --> 00:04:23,449 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: You people, you people. How old are you? 67 00:04:23,449 --> 00:04:24,789 JAMES GRASBY: Master, I'm 51. 68 00:04:24,799 --> 00:04:27,829 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: What skills if any of you got? 69 00:04:27,829 --> 00:04:28,868 FIONA LEWIN: Farmhand 70 00:04:28,878 --> 00:04:30,389 JAMES GRASBY: Farmhand. I'm a farmhand. 71 00:04:30,398 --> 00:04:32,269 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: Why are you not working at the moment? 72 00:04:32,669 --> 00:04:35,819 JAMES GRASBY: Master there's no more work on the fields for me 73 00:04:35,829 --> 00:04:36,459 this year. 74 00:04:37,009 --> 00:04:40,549 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: My God, you got lice in your hair. 75 00:04:40,838 --> 00:04:45,989 You will have your head shaven and you will be bathed. You will 76 00:04:45,998 --> 00:04:50,040 have a medical inspection to make sure that you're not 77 00:04:50,049 --> 00:04:55,390 bringing any diseases into my Workhouse. 78 00:04:56,850 --> 00:05:00,070 JAMES GRASBY: It is astonishing, isn't it? The sudden 79 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:04,829 institutionalisation of an individual from walking in 80 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,619 having no work to suddenly being treated like a criminal. 81 00:05:09,119 --> 00:05:12,109 FIONA LEWIN: It's a loss of freedom and a strict regime as 82 00:05:12,119 --> 00:05:13,769 soon as you enter the Workhouse. 83 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,940 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: It's Antcliffe isn't it?. 84 00:05:16,940 --> 00:05:18,500 JAMES GRASBY: It is master. Yes, it is. 85 00:05:18,899 --> 00:05:23,529 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: You are going to convert this rope into 86 00:05:23,540 --> 00:05:31,679 this oakum. You do it with your fingernails and you pick each 87 00:05:31,690 --> 00:05:34,519 thread and put it in the bin. 88 00:05:36,390 --> 00:05:37,929 I will see you later. 89 00:05:41,109 --> 00:05:44,350 JAMES GRASBY: What is in front of me is a, a natural fibre 90 00:05:44,359 --> 00:05:48,510 cable. It is about 4 to 5 inches across. It's full of tar and 91 00:05:48,519 --> 00:05:51,609 quite honestly with a fingernail, it is impenetrable 92 00:05:52,140 --> 00:05:55,630 and with my already creaky old hands, I don't think I'm going 93 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,529 to get very far with this. Fiona, what am I doing? I've 94 00:05:58,540 --> 00:06:00,559 been set this dreary task. 95 00:06:00,570 --> 00:06:03,369 FIONA LEWIN: Workhouse inmates and even prison inmates would 96 00:06:03,380 --> 00:06:07,029 have done this task and you'd be doing this potentially for hours 97 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,220 on end and it might ruin your hands for when you wanted to go 98 00:06:10,230 --> 00:06:14,125 back into the farm work, so not a very pleasant task. 99 00:06:14,135 --> 00:06:19,475 The workhouses sold the end product of the oakum back to the 100 00:06:19,484 --> 00:06:22,714 shipyards for caulking the boards of the ship and that's 101 00:06:22,725 --> 00:06:26,674 where the phrase'money for old rope' comes from. You don't get 102 00:06:26,684 --> 00:06:31,434 to keep any money. All you receive is a roof over your head 103 00:06:31,614 --> 00:06:32,755 and three meals a day. 104 00:06:33,329 --> 00:06:35,450 JAMES GRASBY: And would I be doing it normally in a room full 105 00:06:35,459 --> 00:06:37,459 of other people doing the same thing? Would there be some 106 00:06:37,470 --> 00:06:40,559 conviviality at least that you might be talking to people? 107 00:06:40,559 --> 00:06:42,720 FIONA LEWIN: That could well be the case, but you'd be looking 108 00:06:42,730 --> 00:06:45,850 out for the master coming to check on you? 109 00:06:45,850 --> 00:06:47,799 JAMES GRASBY: Because if I was chatting and idling I guess the 110 00:06:47,809 --> 00:06:51,589 master might come over master. 111 00:06:51,859 --> 00:06:54,410 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: How are you getting on Antcliffe? 112 00:06:54,579 --> 00:06:56,209 JAMES GRASBY: What is the likelihood Master of having 113 00:06:56,220 --> 00:07:00,299 something to eat or indeed having the temperature raised a 114 00:07:00,309 --> 00:07:01,130 little bit. 115 00:07:01,130 --> 00:07:06,549 MASTER OF THE HOUSE: If you're not warm enough, work harder. 116 00:07:16,850 --> 00:07:19,429 JAMES GRASBY: I have to say it's good to see the back of, back of 117 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,910 him. What a formidable and domineering character he is. 118 00:07:23,220 --> 00:07:26,679 FIONA LEWIN: If you want to come down these steps, we're going to 119 00:07:26,690 --> 00:07:27,970 come out into this yard. 120 00:07:30,290 --> 00:07:33,260 This is the exercise yard that we're in now. You can see in the 121 00:07:33,269 --> 00:07:35,970 corner we've got the privies. But what I really wanted to show 122 00:07:35,980 --> 00:07:38,010 you was this windowsill over here. 123 00:07:38,500 --> 00:07:41,399 JAMES GRASBY: You brought me up to the wall of the principal 124 00:07:41,510 --> 00:07:45,260 facade of the building just adjacent to this casement window 125 00:07:45,269 --> 00:07:47,230 I can see some marks on the wall. What's this about? 126 00:07:47,459 --> 00:07:49,910 FIONA LEWIN: So, this is one of the best records we've got left 127 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,910 of the individuals who were at the Workhouse. Can you see this 128 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:53,390 grid? 129 00:07:53,450 --> 00:07:54,089 JAMES GRASBY: Yes, I can. 130 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,570 FIONA LEWIN: Yes. It's not immediately obvious what it is. 131 00:07:56,579 --> 00:08:00,459 However, when we get a shadow cast off of the windowsill, it 132 00:08:00,470 --> 00:08:04,299 creates a vertical line and intersects this grid here. 133 00:08:04,329 --> 00:08:06,100 JAMES GRASBY: It's a sundial. 134 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:09,079 FIONA LEWIN: The inmates wouldn't know what time it was, 135 00:08:09,089 --> 00:08:11,549 they would be told what to do and when. Maybe there'd be a 136 00:08:11,559 --> 00:08:14,239 bell. But as part of wanting to take some agency back for 137 00:08:14,250 --> 00:08:17,609 themselves, they've created their own sundials. They must 138 00:08:17,619 --> 00:08:19,359 have done a lot of calculations for that. 139 00:08:19,660 --> 00:08:22,000 It also had a lot of risk with it because if they've been 140 00:08:22,010 --> 00:08:25,070 caught doing this, it would have been quite a severe punishment. 141 00:08:25,079 --> 00:08:27,890 You can also see at the other end of this windowsill, we have 142 00:08:27,899 --> 00:08:31,445 a second sun dial here as well and this one is for the 143 00:08:31,454 --> 00:08:34,914 afternoon and it's a really special moment, very poignant I 144 00:08:34,924 --> 00:08:38,835 think on days when it is sunny, when we can see that shadow, to 145 00:08:38,844 --> 00:08:42,164 think that people were stood here like that maybe 200 years 146 00:08:42,174 --> 00:08:46,114 ago, certainly over 100 years ago, trying to work out a simple 147 00:08:46,125 --> 00:08:48,614 thing like what time of day it was, is something really quite 148 00:08:48,625 --> 00:08:49,155 special. 149 00:08:49,484 --> 00:08:52,099 JAMES GRASBY: That is extraordinary with the 150 00:08:52,109 --> 00:08:56,260 inevitable rhythm of the sun through the skies the same today 151 00:08:56,270 --> 00:09:00,140 as it was when those marks were made. That's very poignant. 152 00:09:01,929 --> 00:09:04,239 FIONA LEWIN: It really shows the intelligence and the 153 00:09:04,250 --> 00:09:06,599 resourcefulness of the inmates that were here. 154 00:09:06,609 --> 00:09:10,789 JAMES GRASBY: Time goes very slow when you're having a dreary 155 00:09:10,799 --> 00:09:16,849 time. Doesn't it drag? This has echoes and recalls prison life 156 00:09:16,859 --> 00:09:17,320 to me. 157 00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:19,979 FIONA LEWIN: You can definitely see how it felt like that to 158 00:09:19,989 --> 00:09:21,460 some inmates at times. 159 00:09:23,489 --> 00:09:25,780 STEVEN KING: This is about the poor breeding. It's about the 160 00:09:25,789 --> 00:09:30,299 poor failing to work when they could. And suddenly there's a 161 00:09:30,309 --> 00:09:33,950 narrative of the need for control and containment and 162 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,429 restraint and that's going to be achieved through institutions 163 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,109 like the Southwell Workhouse. 164 00:09:41,599 --> 00:09:45,130 I'm Steve King. I'm Professor of economic and social history at 165 00:09:45,140 --> 00:09:46,460 Nottingham Trent University. 166 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,630 Southwell Workhouse was the brainchild of the the Reverend 167 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:57,229 John Beecher. So he's Anglo Irish. He arrives in 1792 into 168 00:09:57,500 --> 00:10:01,270 Southwell and he gets very early into this question of poor 169 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,479 relief because he's right there in the 1790's at the same time 170 00:10:05,489 --> 00:10:08,900 as poor relief is spiralling out of control because of harvest 171 00:10:08,909 --> 00:10:10,500 failure and Napoleonic wars. 172 00:10:12,719 --> 00:10:16,849 He rapidly sees a systemic problem in the management of 173 00:10:16,859 --> 00:10:20,960 poor people and that systemic problem is that the they're 174 00:10:20,969 --> 00:10:23,580 always increasing the number and the bills are always increasing. 175 00:10:24,059 --> 00:10:30,219 It's his idea to found the Workhouse up Upton which is now 176 00:10:30,229 --> 00:10:33,919 Southwell Workhouse, in 1824. 177 00:10:33,929 --> 00:10:39,500 This was all about two things. First of all saving money and 178 00:10:39,510 --> 00:10:44,200 the second thing was about the moral control of poor people. 179 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:54,510 The intent of the poor law was to educate children not to 180 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,250 become like the parents that generated them. 181 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:05,539 The New Poor Law Workhouses often involve educational spaces 182 00:11:05,869 --> 00:11:09,919 and initially education is carried out in many places by 183 00:11:09,929 --> 00:11:13,719 more literate paupers than the people they're teaching. But 184 00:11:13,750 --> 00:11:17,010 very soon we start to get schoolmasters and some of them 185 00:11:17,020 --> 00:11:19,150 are badly qualified, some of them are well qualified. There 186 00:11:19,159 --> 00:11:22,760 are plenty of scandals in involving schoolmasters. 187 00:11:27,719 --> 00:11:29,479 FIONA LEWIN: So you can probably hear the school children here 188 00:11:29,489 --> 00:11:32,179 today. Shall we have a wander down to the classroom and have a 189 00:11:32,190 --> 00:11:32,724 look? 190 00:11:32,724 --> 00:11:34,369 JAMES GRASBY: Yes please Fiona, lead the way. 191 00:11:34,369 --> 00:11:36,090 FIONA LEWIN: And I was thinking you could be James Grasby for 192 00:11:36,099 --> 00:11:38,830 the second part of our tour because where we going next into 193 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,409 the classroom and into the women's dormitory, William 194 00:11:41,419 --> 00:11:43,049 Antcliffe wouldn't have been allowed. 195 00:11:43,049 --> 00:11:46,070 JAMES GRASBY: Before I leave William Antcliffe behind, what's 196 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,030 the end of his story? Does he ever leave? 197 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,739 FIONA LEWIN: We think that he died in 1887, aged 69. So that 198 00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:56,030 means he spent the last 20 years of his life here. 199 00:11:58,109 --> 00:11:58,809 JAMES GRASBY: Sad, sad story. 200 00:12:07,140 --> 00:12:10,719 Happy the child whose tender years receive instruction well, 201 00:12:10,729 --> 00:12:14,140 who hates the sinner's path and fears the road that leads to 202 00:12:14,150 --> 00:12:14,820 hell. 203 00:12:17,359 --> 00:12:19,770 FIONA LEWIN: You can see the 19th century morals and values 204 00:12:19,780 --> 00:12:23,679 there. This idea that if you can train the child well, then 205 00:12:23,690 --> 00:12:26,510 they'll be self sufficient when they're older and they won't end 206 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,520 up back at the Workhouse as adults and falling back on the 207 00:12:29,530 --> 00:12:30,799 system and costing money. 208 00:12:30,849 --> 00:12:32,849 JAMES GRASBY: So, reading, writing and arithmetic. 209 00:12:32,859 --> 00:12:36,109 FIONA LEWIN: Yes. And also geography for the boys as well. 210 00:12:36,130 --> 00:12:38,419 Not for the girls because they're not going to require 211 00:12:38,429 --> 00:12:41,669 that. But religious education for all. 212 00:12:41,843 --> 00:12:43,583 JAMES GRASBY: Why would a girl not require geography? 213 00:12:43,593 --> 00:12:46,353 FIONA LEWIN: I suppose in her line of work it's not necessary. 214 00:12:46,362 --> 00:12:49,802 JAMES GRASBY: My goodness, it's possible that a child who was 215 00:12:49,812 --> 00:12:53,223 admitted into the Workhouse was receiving an education which 216 00:12:53,232 --> 00:12:56,502 perhaps they wouldn't have got normally outside the Workhouse. 217 00:12:56,872 --> 00:12:59,932 FIONA LEWIN: From the very start education was being offered at a 218 00:12:59,942 --> 00:13:03,732 time where it wouldn't be universally available for 219 00:13:03,742 --> 00:13:04,593 another 50 years. 220 00:13:04,603 --> 00:13:07,445 JAMES GRASBY: What happened to the children the end of the 221 00:13:07,455 --> 00:13:08,286 school day? 222 00:13:08,296 --> 00:13:10,216 FIONA LEWIN: Well, if the weather was nice, they'd likely 223 00:13:10,226 --> 00:13:13,935 get to go and play outside briefly. But then it'd be 224 00:13:13,945 --> 00:13:17,755 upstairs to their dormitories. Children were separated from 225 00:13:17,765 --> 00:13:21,116 parents when they arrived in the Workhouse. But we know that they 226 00:13:21,125 --> 00:13:24,526 would have had an opportunity to see their parents once a week on 227 00:13:24,536 --> 00:13:25,166 a Sunday. 228 00:13:25,495 --> 00:13:28,875 JAMES GRASBY: So fleeting, agonising glimpses and maybe 229 00:13:28,885 --> 00:13:31,575 children hearing their parents and not being able to see them 230 00:13:31,585 --> 00:13:34,460 and these enforced separations. 231 00:13:34,469 --> 00:13:37,059 FIONA LEWIN: That was a big feature for any family coming 232 00:13:37,070 --> 00:13:41,159 into the Workhouse. The dilemma is, do you struggle to survive 233 00:13:41,169 --> 00:13:44,020 on the outside together or do you come into the Workhouse 234 00:13:44,030 --> 00:13:47,909 knowing that you'll have shelter and food and medical care, but 235 00:13:47,919 --> 00:13:51,130 you also know that you'll be segregated. It's a very 236 00:13:51,140 --> 00:13:52,299 difficult choice to make. 237 00:13:57,049 --> 00:14:00,580 JAMES GRASBY: We've just left the that main entrance hallway 238 00:14:01,380 --> 00:14:03,010 towards the back of the building. 239 00:14:04,919 --> 00:14:07,299 FIONA LEWIN: We stop and look through this window, we're 240 00:14:07,309 --> 00:14:11,179 overlooking the men's work yard and straight in front of us is 241 00:14:11,190 --> 00:14:14,940 one of the features of Beecher's original design, which is a 242 00:14:14,950 --> 00:14:19,020 small infirmary. Inevitably, people are going to need medical 243 00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:22,080 care, particularly the age and infirm and that's what the 244 00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:24,179 infirmary originally was for. 245 00:14:24,349 --> 00:14:28,719 And again, that is quite forward thinking because the labouring 246 00:14:28,729 --> 00:14:31,440 classes at this time would have really struggled to afford their 247 00:14:31,450 --> 00:14:32,219 own medical care. 248 00:14:33,630 --> 00:14:37,090 STEVEN KING: John Beecher is ahead of his time. Beecher has 249 00:14:37,099 --> 00:14:41,929 basically founded a regime and built a Workhouse that looks 250 00:14:41,940 --> 00:14:46,010 like the majority of New Poor Law workhouses will become after 251 00:14:46,020 --> 00:14:47,229 1834. 252 00:14:47,229 --> 00:14:51,309 You have both building that is fit for purpose and a whole 253 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,849 regime which is all about dissuading people from claiming 254 00:14:55,849 --> 00:14:58,549 relief, where they could stand on their own two feet. 255 00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:01,380 Beecher also had a a sort of more compassionate side. A 256 00:15:01,409 --> 00:15:05,119 Workhouse might also be the best place for the truly old, truly 257 00:15:05,130 --> 00:15:05,710 sick. 258 00:15:05,719 --> 00:15:10,619 So this sense of the 1834 poor law, both as a a relatively 259 00:15:10,630 --> 00:15:13,919 flexible compassionate place, a receptacle for those who 260 00:15:13,929 --> 00:15:17,349 genuinely needed it and as a form of discipline for those who 261 00:15:17,359 --> 00:15:24,450 didn't. 262 00:15:24,450 --> 00:15:29,260 GENERIC: You see? I named my orphans according to a little... 263 00:15:29,260 --> 00:15:32,719 STEVEN KING: I think Oliver Twist and other contemporary 264 00:15:32,729 --> 00:15:37,429 representations became very, very etched onto the 265 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,150 contemporary public imagination. 266 00:15:39,479 --> 00:15:42,900 But these things are not representative in terms of 267 00:15:42,909 --> 00:15:47,919 medical care, clothing, diet, education. In in terms of all of 268 00:15:47,929 --> 00:15:51,799 those things there is no doubt at all in my mind, based upon my 269 00:15:51,809 --> 00:15:55,840 research, that people in the Workhouse were better served in 270 00:15:55,849 --> 00:15:57,500 the Workhouse than they would have been outside. 271 00:16:00,940 --> 00:16:03,400 JAMES GRASBY: So Fiona, when did the Workhouse finally close? 272 00:16:03,609 --> 00:16:05,330 FIONA LEWIN: Well, strictly speaking, that was when the Poor 273 00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:08,760 law ended in 1929 and they became known as public 274 00:16:08,770 --> 00:16:11,880 assistance institutions and were then administered by the local 275 00:16:11,890 --> 00:16:12,559 authority. 276 00:16:12,570 --> 00:16:15,309 This particular Workhouse was given a different name in the 277 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,599 early 20th century. The earliest reference we can find to it is 278 00:16:18,609 --> 00:16:23,020 1904 when the guardians chose the name, Greet House, named 279 00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:24,880 after the nearby River Greet. 280 00:16:25,380 --> 00:16:30,700 This meant that for babies being born on site and for people 281 00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:34,190 dying here, their birth and death certificates would have 282 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:40,150 that name Greet House instead of the feared Workhouse term. 283 00:16:40,530 --> 00:16:43,799 JAMES GRASBY: What you're suggesting is that stigma 284 00:16:43,809 --> 00:16:49,179 prevailed for a long time about having the Workhouse in your 285 00:16:49,190 --> 00:16:49,760 history. 286 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,010 FIONA LEWIN: The deterrent system that we talked about from 287 00:16:53,020 --> 00:16:57,010 the 19th century. It was done so well that that reputation 288 00:16:57,020 --> 00:17:00,369 persisted into the 20th century. And even now on the edge of 289 00:17:00,380 --> 00:17:03,580 living memory, there are people today who can remember the 290 00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:06,839 Workhouse system and still feel that stigma today. 291 00:17:10,939 --> 00:17:12,449 There's one more thing I want to show you, 292 00:17:13,939 --> 00:17:16,449 I'm taking you to see one of the dormitories we heard about 293 00:17:16,459 --> 00:17:19,989 earlier and it's actually one that the age and infirm women 294 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,150 would have used in the 1800's. 295 00:17:22,270 --> 00:17:24,530 JAMES GRASBY: So we come to the end of a corridor, a little 296 00:17:24,540 --> 00:17:28,550 partition through a door. 297 00:17:28,550 --> 00:17:30,000 FIONA LEWIN: And you'll see, it looks a little bit different 298 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:30,010 now. 299 00:17:30,010 --> 00:17:32,180 JAMES GRASBY: Now, Fiona, I was not expecting this. 300 00:17:34,339 --> 00:17:37,640 It's a bedsit with a pretty straightforward gas stove over 301 00:17:37,650 --> 00:17:40,650 the little sideboard with a mincing machine, a surface to 302 00:17:40,660 --> 00:17:45,469 prepare food. There's a table with a teapot laid for tea and a 303 00:17:45,479 --> 00:17:50,849 row of beds. One, two, three, four, five. Five iron frame 304 00:17:50,859 --> 00:17:52,859 beds. It's a sort of seventies bedsit. 305 00:17:53,219 --> 00:17:54,890 FIONA LEWIN: That is absolutely what it is. 306 00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:56,469 JAMES GRASBY: What's it doing here Fiona? 307 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,219 FIONA LEWIN: Even after the Workhouse era had ended, this 308 00:18:00,229 --> 00:18:04,229 building was still used to accommodate homeless families 309 00:18:04,239 --> 00:18:07,020 while they were waiting for further help. One of the last 310 00:18:07,030 --> 00:18:10,900 residents was here as late as 1977 which is why you see the 311 00:18:10,910 --> 00:18:11,670 room as it is. 312 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,510 JAMES GRASBY: This is within my living memory, my experience. So 313 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:20,219 I presume that there are people still alive who lived here. 314 00:18:20,229 --> 00:18:22,589 FIONA LEWIN: We're actually in touch with some people who have 315 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:24,810 lived in these rooms. 316 00:18:25,260 --> 00:18:28,849 So today James, we have Mr Perkins who's come to meet you 317 00:18:28,859 --> 00:18:32,829 to tell you about his story of when he used to live in one of 318 00:18:32,839 --> 00:18:33,579 these rooms. 319 00:18:34,750 --> 00:18:37,680 Michael. Thank you very much for coming today. Can I introduce 320 00:18:37,689 --> 00:18:38,650 you to James? 321 00:18:40,020 --> 00:18:43,170 JAMES GRASBY: It's a pleasure to meet you. Tell me a little bit 322 00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:47,040 about the time that you arrived here and the sort of the age you 323 00:18:47,050 --> 00:18:47,109 were at. 324 00:18:47,770 --> 00:18:50,729 MR PERKINS: I would have been here with my mother and five or 325 00:18:50,739 --> 00:18:55,170 six of my siblings when I was four years old because I believe 326 00:18:55,180 --> 00:18:58,640 my mother was struggling because my father was in prison. I 327 00:18:58,650 --> 00:19:02,089 remember being here in this room, there was no heating. 328 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,439 There was only, as I remember, two beds. 329 00:19:05,449 --> 00:19:07,800 JAMES GRASBY: Do you recall how long you were here for? 330 00:19:07,810 --> 00:19:11,989 MR PERKINS: Probably months. It would have been November because 331 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,400 there'd been a big bonfire the night before. I spent my time 332 00:19:16,410 --> 00:19:20,839 collecting the spent fireworks, which I found quite amusing. 333 00:19:21,020 --> 00:19:23,410 JAMES GRASBY: And it was one room living really? I mean, 334 00:19:23,420 --> 00:19:26,079 everything happened in here by the look of it. You, you slept, 335 00:19:26,089 --> 00:19:30,180 you cooked. And tell me you said there were two beds for how many 336 00:19:30,189 --> 00:19:30,660 of you? 337 00:19:30,739 --> 00:19:33,119 MR PERKINS: Six of us, six children and my mother. 338 00:19:33,329 --> 00:19:35,229 JAMES GRASBY: And your bed was a pretty primitive affair? 339 00:19:35,369 --> 00:19:39,390 MR PERKINS: Yes, mine was the two chairs with an overcoat over 340 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,770 me. It was more comfortable than sleeping on the floor. It was 341 00:19:43,780 --> 00:19:45,140 just a little bit softer. 342 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,250 JAMES GRASBY: It was barely enough, in hindsight., do you 343 00:19:49,260 --> 00:19:49,829 feel? 344 00:19:49,939 --> 00:19:53,349 MR PERKINS: Yes, I do. But, I had to make do with it. 345 00:19:54,020 --> 00:19:56,680 I do remember being very hungry. 346 00:19:58,550 --> 00:20:04,260 On one occasion I was so hungry I ventured out of the door and 347 00:20:04,270 --> 00:20:10,390 went down these stone steps, turned right at the bottom, 348 00:20:10,599 --> 00:20:14,459 opening the door into the kitchen. There was nobody in 349 00:20:14,469 --> 00:20:18,410 there. And of course, with me being so small, I was reaching 350 00:20:18,420 --> 00:20:22,660 up on to the top of the work surfaces, exploring, trying to 351 00:20:22,670 --> 00:20:24,260 find something to eat. 352 00:20:25,609 --> 00:20:30,400 But unfortunately, I couldn't find anything, went out, closed 353 00:20:30,410 --> 00:20:34,979 the door and climbed the stairs, back up to the room. Still very 354 00:20:34,989 --> 00:20:36,859 cold and very hungry. 355 00:20:40,369 --> 00:20:44,000 JAMES GRASBY: You were very little at the time and in 356 00:20:44,209 --> 00:20:48,400 hindsight, how do you look back at that time you spent here? 357 00:20:48,410 --> 00:20:53,459 MR PERKINS: It gave us a roof over our heads. Unfortunately, 358 00:20:53,469 --> 00:20:58,020 the onward move took me into care and then on to being 359 00:20:58,030 --> 00:20:58,800 fostered. 360 00:20:59,209 --> 00:21:01,750 JAMES GRASBY: When you walk through the same door just a 361 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:07,589 moment ago. I see a sparkly eyed man. How are things subsequent 362 00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:08,510 to your time here? 363 00:21:08,859 --> 00:21:12,900 MR PERKINS: I like to think that I succeeded quite well. I went 364 00:21:12,910 --> 00:21:18,890 on to be quite successful in the print trade. I've also run a pub 365 00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:26,229 for seven years with my wife and retired on my 65th birthday and 366 00:21:26,239 --> 00:21:30,609 I'm living quite a comfortable life now, and enjoyable. 367 00:21:31,109 --> 00:21:33,489 JAMES GRASBY: Wonderful. It's been an absolute pleasure to 368 00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:37,489 meet you here and thank you very much for sharing your story. 369 00:21:38,599 --> 00:21:39,339 MR PERKINS: My pleasure. 370 00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:42,060 JAMES GRASBY: Thank you. Thank you very much, 371 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,079 Fiona. That was extraordinary, extraordinary to hear that 372 00:21:46,089 --> 00:21:48,680 story. It's a very powerful thing, isn't it? 373 00:21:48,709 --> 00:21:50,880 FIONA LEWIN: It's always a special moment to meet anyone 374 00:21:50,890 --> 00:21:54,010 with a connection here and like you say, to stand in, in the 375 00:21:54,020 --> 00:21:56,459 room with a person who's actually lived here. 376 00:21:57,089 --> 00:22:03,390 We do have a number of visitors who are local, who have 377 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,849 connections here and even staff and volunteers as well, so I've 378 00:22:07,859 --> 00:22:10,745 actually discovered my own personal connection. 379 00:22:10,745 --> 00:22:11,479 JAMES GRASBY: Have you? 380 00:22:11,479 --> 00:22:14,439 FIONA LEWIN: Through using our birth and death register in our 381 00:22:14,449 --> 00:22:20,630 collection here, combined with the 1921 census, I have found 382 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,670 distant cousins of mine who lived and eventually died here. 383 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,459 So it can be surprising just how many of us have got that 384 00:22:30,469 --> 00:22:33,040 personal connection to Workhouse history. 385 00:22:34,219 --> 00:22:36,339 JAMES GRASBY: I mean, what you're saying and what you've 386 00:22:36,349 --> 00:22:38,880 explained to me is this great building is not just an 387 00:22:38,890 --> 00:22:43,119 architectural monument to an era in our history, but it is a 388 00:22:43,130 --> 00:22:47,099 nexus sort of meeting point for historians, family historians, 389 00:22:47,109 --> 00:22:51,890 for real people, and even members of staff to find deep 390 00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:55,859 connections, not only with a place, but to other people in 391 00:22:55,869 --> 00:22:59,109 their family lines or other people who have been associated 392 00:22:59,119 --> 00:22:59,920 with you in history. 393 00:23:00,689 --> 00:23:03,930 That's extraordinary. What a wonderful inspiring story. 394 00:23:04,390 --> 00:23:05,939 FIONA LEWIN: Well, James, thank you very much for coming along 395 00:23:05,949 --> 00:23:08,439 today and it's been a pleasure to show you around the 396 00:23:08,449 --> 00:23:09,189 Workhouse. 397 00:23:09,199 --> 00:23:11,630 JAMES GRASBY: It's been an absolute delight. I've been 398 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,630 bowled over not only by the place but by the very emotional, 399 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:20,160 deep stories and deeply rooted histories here. It's an 400 00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:30,560 extraordinary place. Thank you. 401 00:25:40,819 --> 00:25:43,680 Thanks for listening to this episode of the National Trust 402 00:25:43,689 --> 00:25:47,020 podcast. If you've enjoyed it and would like to hear about how 403 00:25:47,030 --> 00:25:49,920 we make the National Trust podcast I'll be appearing at the 404 00:25:49,930 --> 00:25:53,170 Chalk History Festival in June along with the producers behind 405 00:25:53,180 --> 00:25:57,050 the show. We'll be back soon with another episode. But for 406 00:25:57,060 --> 00:25:59,630 now from me, James Grasby. Goodbye.