1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,160 This podcast contains the personal stories, opinions and experiences of its speakers, rather 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:11,500 than those of Breast Cancer Now. Welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast, providing support and 3 00:00:11,500 --> 00:00:17,440 information to anyone affected by breast cancer. I'm Laura Price and I'm the host of the Breast 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:24,660 Cancer Now podcast. I'm a food writer and author and I live with secondary breast cancer. Today on 5 00:00:24,660 --> 00:00:29,720 the podcast we're going to be talking about working with cancer, that is, going back to work 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:35,620 after a cancer diagnosis and cancer treatment, or in my case, working whilst living with secondary 7 00:00:35,620 --> 00:00:42,200 breast cancer. Working with cancer is a huge and often overlooked part of the cancer experience 8 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:47,320 and so often companies and employers are not equipped to know how to best support employees 9 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:53,100 affected by cancer. Fortunately, there is an organisation called Working With Cancer, 10 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:58,180 founded by Barbara Wilson, to support people with cancer going back to work, as well as giving 11 00:00:58,180 --> 00:01:04,959 businesses and employers the tools to help any of their staff affected by cancer. Barbara Wilson is 12 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:10,300 a senior human resources professional with more than 40 years experience. After she was diagnosed 13 00:01:10,300 --> 00:01:15,840 with breast cancer in 2005, she set up a group to help people affected by cancer to return to work 14 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:22,360 successfully. She then set up Working With Cancer in 2014 as a social enterprise providing 15 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:28,100 coaching, training and consultancy services to employers, employees and colleagues affected by 16 00:01:28,100 --> 00:01:33,280 cancer, as well as carers and health professionals. I met Barbara on a panel for Breast 17 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:38,080 Cancer Now, where we were both talking about the challenges of working with breast cancer and I was 18 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,540 really interested to hear all the amazing work she's been doing to help people like me to go back to 19 00:01:42,540 --> 00:01:48,420 work. I have direct experience of working with cancer over the course of the last 11 years, having 20 00:01:48,420 --> 00:01:54,740 been diagnosed with primary breast cancer at 29 and with secondary breast cancer at 39. I've 21 00:01:54,740 --> 00:02:00,140 experienced telling my colleagues and managers about my diagnosis on the day I was diagnosed, 22 00:02:00,140 --> 00:02:04,720 dealing with fatigue in the workplace, deciding whether to wear a wig at work and most recently 23 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:11,260 figuring out how to work with incurable secondary breast cancer. So I have a lot of questions and 24 00:02:11,260 --> 00:02:16,240 hopefully some of yours will be answered here too. Barbara, thank you so much for joining us and 25 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,380 welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast. Thank you and it's been lovely to have been asked to come 26 00:02:20,380 --> 00:02:26,120 along today. Could you start by telling me why you set up working with cancer and what your main work 27 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:33,100 involves? Well, I set up working with cancer after my own experience of breast cancer, which you 28 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:41,920 mentioned happened in 2005. I was then working as a human resources director in the city, a very large 29 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:50,380 company. And there was absolutely no support available to help me get back to work. And it was 30 00:02:50,380 --> 00:02:55,840 incredibly difficult. And I thought, well, if I'm finding this so difficult, there must be lots of 31 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:01,960 people in the same boat. There were no services. There was nothing around. And I went on the web as it 32 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:13,400 was then. And all there was was a website that Avon had set up, which was advising women on how to do 33 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:20,420 their hair and makeup after a cancer diagnosis, a breast cancer diagnosis. That was the only 34 00:03:20,420 --> 00:03:28,480 support globally. So I kind of thought, hang on, there's something here that I could pursue. So 35 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:40,340 that's what led me to set it up. And I provide with my associates three major services to people with 36 00:03:40,340 --> 00:03:45,800 cancer or affected by cancer, because it's working carers as well. One is one to one coaching 37 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:53,160 support to help people cope with all the impacts of cancer, physical, psychological, the 38 00:03:53,160 --> 00:04:00,080 challenges of managing work. Another is providing training workshops, mainly for 39 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,960 employers. But we also work with a number of charities, including breast cancer now, which 40 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:12,540 we've done for several years now. And we also provide consultancy advice to employers to write 41 00:04:12,540 --> 00:04:19,339 policies for them around working cancer, provide information, best practice guides, that sort of 42 00:04:19,339 --> 00:04:25,480 thing. Okay. And what do you think, aside from hair and makeup, what do you think are the main 43 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:34,880 challenges that a person returning to work during or post cancer treatment faces in terms of going 44 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:43,420 back to work? I won't take all day. But there are lots. So there's a the fact that recovery from 45 00:04:43,420 --> 00:04:50,040 cancer, as I'm sure you know, is not linear. But that I mean, is that it's not like if you've had a 46 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:57,540 cold or even like a broken leg, where each week, each week, it gets a bit better. So the one of the 47 00:04:57,540 --> 00:05:06,240 issues with cancer, let's assume a primary cancer treatment, is that you can have good weeks and bad 48 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:12,680 weeks, have good days and bad days. And the experience is different for everybody. You never 49 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:18,100 know how you're going to be one week to the next. The doctors don't actually know how you're going to be 50 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:23,000 because everyone is different. Everyone has their own physiology, their own sort of 51 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:30,120 psychological makeup. So it's about living in the unknown and not knowing how your recovery is going 52 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:36,460 to be. That makes it very difficult to speak about. So that's the second major issue, which is how do 53 00:05:36,460 --> 00:05:41,920 you talk about cancer in the workplace? Most people don't want to be victims. Most people don't 54 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:48,800 want to damage their career or their opportunity job opportunities. So it's finding the right 55 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:55,900 words that people often find difficult to explain to their boss, their colleagues, actually their 56 00:05:55,900 --> 00:06:02,660 family and friends as well, how they're doing. You want to give people a good story, but you may not be 57 00:06:02,660 --> 00:06:08,580 feeling very good. So I think actually communication is one of the most difficult 58 00:06:08,580 --> 00:06:14,720 things, particularly in the workplace, because none of us are used about having those very 59 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:21,740 difficult conversations in a work context. And presumably most workforces and companies don't 60 00:06:21,740 --> 00:06:31,080 have a specialised, a person who is specialised in returning to work after cancer. I can't think of 61 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:37,240 any organisation. I mean a lot of companies have, for example, employee assistance programs, 62 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:42,620 which are very good in their own way, but they're very trying to generic services where you pick up a 63 00:06:42,620 --> 00:06:49,840 phone and then maybe somebody can provide some counselling. HR professionals can, like any 64 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:56,160 human being, some are good, some are less good. And sometimes one of the critical problems is that 65 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:03,240 people can be quite embarrassed, feel awkward, may have been back at work for some time, but 66 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:08,400 suffering quite severe side effects. So there's a whole number of issues people are dealing with 67 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,860 that makes it just very tough to talk about. Absolutely. I've experienced most of them 68 00:07:12,860 --> 00:07:18,680 myself, I think, so very experienced in that area. One of the things that I experienced recently was 69 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:24,140 actually applying for a new job at a company, returning to a company after many years 70 00:07:24,140 --> 00:07:31,020 freelance, and now with secondary breast cancer. If a person listening to this podcast is applying 71 00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:36,720 for a new job, do they need to disclose that they have had primary breast cancer or that they 72 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,340 perhaps have secondary breast cancer or what stage would you bring that up with your new 73 00:07:41,340 --> 00:07:47,340 employer? Right, okay. So this is a classic question. I'm pleased you asked it. So the answer 74 00:07:47,340 --> 00:07:54,200 is there is no requirement to disclose anything. That's very much a matter of personal judgment. 75 00:07:54,200 --> 00:08:00,600 The issue is, is that if you're, for example, going through treatment and you have to have go to 76 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:05,240 regular appointments, which you might well do for secondary breast cancer. So we work with many 77 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:11,700 people in that situation they may be having. Weekly or monthly infusions they've got to travel 78 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:17,880 for, you're going to need the time off and you need to let your employer know because you have a right, 79 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:24,480 we might come on this later, you have a right to time off, not to be paid time off, but you have a right to 80 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:30,040 time off to attend medical appointments. So when you're applying for a new job, if you don't really 81 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:38,679 want to disclose your cancer for a whole number of reasons, then my advice would always be that, and 82 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:43,419 you need to remember if you're on social media and been talking about your cancer, your employer 83 00:08:43,419 --> 00:08:50,040 might well know about it. So there is an issue there about what you think the employer may or may not 84 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:56,880 know already. And you don't want to lie at interview. I would definitely say never lie. But 85 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,540 assuming the employer doesn't know what I would say is go through the interview process, if they 86 00:09:01,540 --> 00:09:10,140 make a job offer, accept it orally and in writing if you can. But at the point when you accept it orally, 87 00:09:10,140 --> 00:09:14,200 say to the employer, look I need to have a conversation with you about my personal 88 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:21,740 circumstances. Can I come in and see you or can we have a chat on the phone, however it works and tell 89 00:09:21,740 --> 00:09:26,940 them at that stage that you're having cancer treatment or whatever the situation is and you 90 00:09:26,940 --> 00:09:31,700 need to let them know. And we often help people have those sorts of conversations. But once you've 91 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:38,180 told your employer you have a cancer diagnosis or you're having cancer treatment, you are covered 92 00:09:38,180 --> 00:09:45,680 by the Equality Act. So if your employer were to turn around and say, I'm not employing you because 93 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:52,260 you've told me that, then they're breaking the law. Okay. So if you're really nervous about 94 00:09:52,260 --> 00:09:57,580 saying anything up front, hold back until you have a job offer at which point you're secure. Because 95 00:09:57,580 --> 00:10:04,320 just to sort of the psychology behind it, you want to paint yourself as the most capable best person 96 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:10,500 for that job. And there's this real push and pull of, well, if I know I'm capable, I know I'm the best 97 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:15,140 person for this job. But if they know that I'm going to need a certain amount of time to attend these 98 00:10:15,140 --> 00:10:19,780 hospital appointments, then I feel if they know that then they, you know, I might be 99 00:10:19,780 --> 00:10:24,760 disadvantaged. So it's a very difficult position for people to be in. It is difficult. And what I 100 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:29,700 would also say is it's quite difficult going for job interviews when you're having what I call 101 00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:36,200 quite extensive treatment, because as you've said, you have to be at your best. So if you're still 102 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,860 having treatment, but you're feeling under the weather, you know, you're not at your best, but you 103 00:10:40,860 --> 00:10:47,960 want to go to interview, then again, you are protected. If you say I've got cancer, I, you know, 104 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,760 I need to interview virtually because it's difficult traveling in while I'm having 105 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:59,900 treatment. You are protected by the law. But the issue becomes is if you're not selected for, let's 106 00:10:59,900 --> 00:11:06,820 say for the next round of interview, there's no way of proving that telling the prospective employer 107 00:11:06,820 --> 00:11:12,520 you've got cancer has been a reason for them turning you down. Of course. But, you know, there 108 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:18,900 are people who, let me just be clear, you know, very often the employer wants to take someone on 109 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:24,340 because of their skills, that's the reason their skills, their talents, they bring themselves as 110 00:11:24,340 --> 00:11:31,380 it were to the job. And many employers will be, you know, they'll be very sad to hear that someone's 111 00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:36,580 having treatment, but they'll still want to do their best to employ them. So I think it's 112 00:11:36,580 --> 00:11:41,400 important to recognize that, you know, everyone's circumstances are different, but 113 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:47,380 there are some terrific employers out there who, who they're keen to employ the person and will do 114 00:11:47,380 --> 00:11:51,360 their utmost to support that individual while they're having cancer treatment. So don't write 115 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:56,460 all employers off. Oh, no, absolutely not. I've had wonderful support in my, in my time in 116 00:11:56,460 --> 00:12:05,740 employment. So, and slightly off topic, but just going back to social media, to what extent can a 117 00:12:05,740 --> 00:12:12,240 prospective employer look at prospective employees social media? And you know, is that? 118 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,880 It's in the public domain. So there's nothing to say. And in fact, most, most recruitment 119 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:23,620 departments these days will probably do a quick search on social media. So anyone who has a blog or 120 00:12:23,620 --> 00:12:32,780 social media, where they talk about it. And obviously, it's a very, you could say a privileged 121 00:12:32,780 --> 00:12:37,840 position to be able to go back to work at all with cancer, because many people can't because they 122 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:45,320 are, you know, the chemotherapy is debilitating, or, you know, they're just not physically able, or 123 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:50,700 they might have had quite a physical job before their cancer diagnosis, and they just can't do 124 00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:57,160 that anymore. What support or benefits are there available for people who cannot go to work with 125 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:02,340 cancer? It does depend on everyone's circumstances. And I'm not a benefits expert, can 126 00:13:02,340 --> 00:13:09,820 I say, but there are, and what I would say is, I would certainly if in that position, Macmillan have a 127 00:13:09,820 --> 00:13:15,880 very good benefits helpline, and Maggies have a pretty good benefits capability as well. So I 128 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:22,280 would always ask them or citizens advice, you know, they have great resources and knowledge. 129 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,440 But the classic one, particularly for the self employed is the employment support allowance, 130 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:32,620 which is not means tested. It's not a lot of money. But if you've been paying national insurance 131 00:13:32,620 --> 00:13:37,540 contributions for the last two years, you can apply for that. And for many people, particularly 132 00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:42,620 the self employed, it can be a bit of a lifesaver to have that. Yeah, that's great to know. Because, 133 00:13:42,620 --> 00:13:46,780 you know, a lot, one of the things that a lot of people don't think about with cancer is the 134 00:13:46,780 --> 00:13:53,040 financial burden it has on people. It can be horrendous. And, you know, I think one of the 135 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:59,840 issues is that very often, people have to work because of their financial circumstances. And 136 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:07,660 it's very tough if they've run out of sick pay. And, and they just can't go in on certain days. So it is a 137 00:14:07,660 --> 00:14:13,360 very, it is incredibly tough. So there are benefits available, not as many as one would like 138 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:20,280 to see, I'm afraid to say. Yeah. Is there a first step you could recommend to someone going back to 139 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:28,540 work for the first time after a cancer diagnosis or cancer treatment? Yes. Speak to your HR 140 00:14:28,540 --> 00:14:36,480 department and your line manager. There was some research done some years ago, actually, now, 141 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:42,720 which showed that the individuals who made the biggest difference as to whether somebody 142 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:49,300 returned to work successfully, the individual was the line manager. So if a line manager wants you 143 00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:56,440 back, they often move heaven and earth to get you back. If they don't want you back, it can be very 144 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:03,480 tough. But I would certainly always have a conversation at the point of diagnosis, because 145 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,780 you're, because you're protected, if you're employed, you're immediate, even if you're on a 146 00:15:07,780 --> 00:15:16,140 short term contract, I would definitely let people know I've had a diagnosis of cancer. And it 147 00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:21,120 might build well be you say, look, at this stage, I don't know how ill I am, I'm still having tests, but 148 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:27,000 I need, I will need the time off to continue with that. And from that point on, you are protected. So 149 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,600 it's important to let those people know as soon as. And when you say protected, you mean that they, 150 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:37,020 they, you can't lose your job because of it? Well, if they were, yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, 151 00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:44,160 there are some, a few evil people out there who might say you're sacked, but potentially, then 152 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:51,220 you should seek legal advice or come to us. And basically, it's absolutely direct 153 00:15:51,220 --> 00:15:58,180 discrimination, breaking the law, uncapped award. Absolutely, you should, you know, not just 154 00:15:58,180 --> 00:16:06,700 take that line down. So it's really important to let your employer know ASAP. And what about 155 00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:12,580 employers? Because, you know, I sense that that's the area where, because once you've got cancer, 156 00:16:12,580 --> 00:16:18,220 you start to learn about, you know, what it is and what your capabilities are. But for a manager who 157 00:16:18,220 --> 00:16:25,720 has never dealt with cancer and who doesn't know how it affects you, it must be very difficult to 158 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:31,840 know how to, how to, how to approach an employee. Oh, it's horrendous. Absolutely. I mean, I know 159 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:38,620 I've been there. I remember one classic occasion when I was sitting at my desk in my previous job, 160 00:16:38,620 --> 00:16:44,600 eating a sandwich at my desk. And this guy kind of rushed up to me and sort of sat down in the chair next 161 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:50,200 to me, I'm sort of mid sandwich, I think, tuna and sweet corn at the time, and said, Barbara, I've got 162 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:57,480 cancer, what am I going to do? And, you know, it's, it's incredibly difficult. I think a lot depends 163 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:03,740 on relationships. The best employers will know that somebody's having tests or there's 164 00:17:03,740 --> 00:17:09,180 something up and will understand their employer well enough to say, please tell me what's 165 00:17:09,180 --> 00:17:17,400 happening. Not knowing an employee has cancer, and therefore, they didn't know that they were 166 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:23,520 having tests and appointments is not an excuse if there's a sort of legal case eventually comes up. 167 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,780 You know, I didn't know they needed adjustments because they didn't tell me they had cancer. Well, 168 00:17:27,780 --> 00:17:36,300 as a responsible employer, it's your duty to understand how how your employee is. It's 169 00:17:36,300 --> 00:17:43,420 important, I think, for the employer to sit down in a quiet room, in a private space and say, look, come 170 00:17:43,420 --> 00:17:49,000 on, tell me, I know there's something up, you need to let me know. Now, the only thing is, is those 171 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:57,820 confidant conversations are confidential? So the next question for the manager to say is, apart 172 00:17:57,820 --> 00:18:03,620 from saying, thank you for letting me know what support have you got, what support can I give you, 173 00:18:03,620 --> 00:18:12,740 is it would be really helpful if I can let HR know, for example. So to basically, for the employee to 174 00:18:12,740 --> 00:18:18,760 understand who that person wants to know. So just again, to go back to my own case, I remember telling 175 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:26,900 my boss I had cancer. And his first question was, do you want people to know the or am well? And I said, 176 00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:31,640 well, yes. And the reason being, we were going through a major redundancy program. And I didn't 177 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:37,520 want my colleagues to think I'd been sacked or let go. And he said, well, is it okay to know for people 178 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:43,520 to know it's cancer? And we're all different. But in my perspective, it's not like a sort of social 179 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:51,020 disease, it was nothing to be ashamed of. So I said, well, yes, I've got nothing to hide. So I think if 180 00:18:51,020 --> 00:18:56,740 people, I mean, not everyone's the same. And some people find it very tough, I know that. But if you 181 00:18:56,740 --> 00:19:03,180 can be open and honest with people from like, I have to tell you, it makes life so much easier. What 182 00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:09,260 about colleagues? Because, you know, often you go to your manager, your manager knows. But maybe 183 00:19:09,260 --> 00:19:13,360 some and the people who were on the team when you were diagnosed know about it, but then new people 184 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:17,700 joined the team and you perhaps have ongoing symptoms. But those new team members don't know 185 00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:22,840 about it. But it does affect them because it might mean that that more work is given to them to 186 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:32,180 compensate when you can't do it. I mean, would you advise that the cancer patient tells their 187 00:19:32,180 --> 00:19:38,860 colleagues or? It's really for the person to kind of discuss with the line manager how this is to be 188 00:19:38,860 --> 00:19:44,020 communicated. So I mean, you know, classically, at first diagnosis, you might think of the people 189 00:19:44,020 --> 00:19:49,580 you need, you want to tell who you might want, your manager to tell. And I always say, agree the 190 00:19:49,580 --> 00:19:56,120 message. So what do you want said, you need to be write it down in an email, I want them to know this. 191 00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:00,540 But as new people come on board, I think it's important they should know why. So it's important 192 00:20:00,540 --> 00:20:06,880 to again, preempt the problem, if you can, by letting your manager know that as new people come 193 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:13,400 on board, you're happy for them to be told or not. There are two problems that arises with teams. One 194 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:18,620 is that they don't know. And then they get very resentful that somebody's having all this time 195 00:20:18,620 --> 00:20:24,900 off, and they're getting all this extra work, and they don't know why. So that's one problem. The 196 00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:33,540 other problem, which is much more complex, is when for good reasons, a cover is brought in while 197 00:20:33,540 --> 00:20:42,160 you're off sick. And the person doing the cover resents the fact that this is only a temporary job, 198 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:48,120 they want to do it permanently. So they spend a lot of time building a relationship with a manager. 199 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:54,340 And the manager might quite like them might prefer them to the person who's off with cancer. So often 200 00:20:54,340 --> 00:20:59,700 you get difficult relationships between the person who's off sick, and their cover 201 00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:06,240 arrangement and the manager. And it's important for in that sense, for in that case, for managers to 202 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:14,740 realise that the job is the person who's off sick. This is only a temporary arrangement. They have to 203 00:21:14,740 --> 00:21:23,420 make that very clear, everyone from the outset, that this person is coming back and will be back. 204 00:21:23,420 --> 00:21:28,940 So, you know, it's lovely to have them cover the job, but the job is not theirs until the 205 00:21:28,940 --> 00:21:34,400 circumstances change significantly as they were. It's very similar to a maternity leave, 206 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:39,900 really, when a woman or paternity leave, you know, when someone goes off for a really long time and 207 00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:45,720 someone comes in their place. And, you know, I can understand, we're in a place where we're being 208 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,540 more and more open, we're encouraged to communicate more, to be ourselves more at work. 209 00:21:50,540 --> 00:21:58,280 And so, if that person, the interim, you know, the acting person in that job is making great 210 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,020 relationships with their team and with their manager, it's incredibly difficult for them as 211 00:22:02,020 --> 00:22:09,400 well, isn't it? Absolutely. And no, it's a tough situation all around, but you have to understand 212 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:15,920 the facts of the situation. And, you know, it's like a maternity cover. There are employers, you 213 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:22,280 know, I do, I have several cases where somebody's come back to work after cancer after cancer 214 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:27,680 treatment, you know, they're back on their first day or their first week and the manager says, it's 215 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:34,560 lovely to have you back, we've really missed you. But you need to understand that while you're away, 216 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:41,380 we've had to restructure. And actually, the job you were doing no longer exists. So we'll try and 217 00:22:41,380 --> 00:22:48,540 find you another job if we can, but we'll have to see what we can do. And, you know, I'm afraid to say that 218 00:22:48,540 --> 00:22:54,420 does happen. It happens with maternity cover, it happens in these cases too. Thank God, not very 219 00:22:54,420 --> 00:23:03,320 often, but I'm afraid to say it does happen. In that case, what should someone do? It's very tough. I 220 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:09,500 would always seek, again, legal advice and we can put people and Macmillan Cousin touch with 221 00:23:09,500 --> 00:23:18,720 lawyers. The issue is, is it a genuine redundancy? Yeah, it's a very tough situation. It doesn't 222 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:24,680 happen as often as it used to, but it does happen. And working with cancer, you don't provide the 223 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,180 legal advice, but someone can contact you through your website and you will sort of point them in the 224 00:23:29,180 --> 00:23:34,600 right direction. Yeah, we do actually have a non-practicing employment lawyer who provides 225 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:39,980 advice. Fantastic. She does do that and she provides up to an hour's advice per person. So 226 00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:43,760 that's fantastic because I think often when someone when someone sees the word seek legal 227 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:49,160 advice, they think of it as this really scary, huge thing. And you know, is this going to cost me loads 228 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:55,240 of money. So actually having that interim point person, it is really worthwhile. Yeah. So we have 229 00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:00,980 our own in-house person, a wonderful person called Genevieve Isaacson. And also we have 230 00:24:00,980 --> 00:24:07,580 relationships with two firms of lawyers who, if things are getting really nasty, where we can seek 231 00:24:07,580 --> 00:24:12,520 advice from them and they're lovely people and they're not scary lawyers, I have to say. 232 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:19,700 Hopefully it won't come to that for anyone who's listening to this podcast. I'm Gareth, the editor 233 00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:25,860 of Vita magazine. Vita is Breast Cancer Now's magazine for anyone affected by breast cancer. 234 00:24:25,860 --> 00:24:31,460 It's full of inspiring real life stories, expert tips on coping with the effects of breast cancer 235 00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:37,800 and articles on health and well-being. In our new spring issue, you can read about a mother and 236 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,920 daughter who were both diagnosed with breast cancer 12 years apart. Find out the latest in 237 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:48,480 breast cancer research, get tips on coping with fatigue, read about the benefits of getting 238 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:57,860 outdoors, and much more. Subscribe to Vita Now at BreastCancerNow.org forward slash Vita. You 239 00:24:57,860 --> 00:25:05,220 mentioned at the beginning that cancer recovery is not linear. And that was absolutely the case for 240 00:25:05,220 --> 00:25:11,980 me. And I, so after my primary diagnosis when I was 29, I then had 10 years where I was effectively 241 00:25:11,980 --> 00:25:16,860 cured. I went back to work. I got up, first of all, I went back to university and did a master's degree 242 00:25:16,860 --> 00:25:23,080 because you know, I wanted to do that. But then I went back to work, got a full time job and my hair 243 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:29,900 grew back. And I looked like a normal employee, a normal person, a contributing member to the team 244 00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:35,740 and I was working really, really hard. And the people that knew me before obviously knew my 245 00:25:35,740 --> 00:25:41,820 history. But I didn't sort of actively bring it up very often. And there were new people that came 246 00:25:41,820 --> 00:25:48,160 into my working life who didn't know anything about it. I used to travel a lot with my job and it was 247 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:55,060 very hard work and intense. And there were times when the fatigue really, really hit me. I was 248 00:25:55,060 --> 00:25:59,980 taking to Moxifen during that time. I had all the paramedic and pausal symptoms, not to mention the 249 00:25:59,980 --> 00:26:06,220 knock on effects of chemotherapy, radiotherapy, surgery years and years later and all of that stuff 250 00:26:06,220 --> 00:26:15,200 piles up on you and keeps on going and going. So I had times when I really struggled. But because I was, I 251 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:23,800 wasn't a cancer patient, I was discharged from hospital and I found it incredibly difficult to 252 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:31,740 know what I was entitled to. I did have conversations with my managers and with HR over 253 00:26:31,740 --> 00:26:43,120 the years. But because I was supposedly well again, I didn't feel I had a right to ask for time off 254 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:49,320 or working from home. This is before the pandemic. What can someone do to find out? Maybe someone who 255 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:55,420 has lived for a long time after their cancer treatment but is still struggling in some ways. 256 00:26:55,420 --> 00:27:02,980 What can they do? You're covered by the Equality Act for life. So I'm still covered by it and you will 257 00:27:02,980 --> 00:27:08,700 be covered by it. Anyone who's had a cancer diagnosis. And you can ask for adjustments or 258 00:27:08,700 --> 00:27:13,880 mention that you need adjustments when you need them. You can have them either permanently or 259 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:20,140 temporarily. So in your case, it would just be a question of saying to employer, if you wish to, you 260 00:27:20,140 --> 00:27:27,360 don't have to. We all manage to a certain extent some of the side effects of cancer treatment. We 261 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:36,280 live them forever. I still have menopausal symptoms. But you can say to your employer, look, I 262 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:44,540 have had cancer treatment X years ago. I still suffer the side effects of that treatment, 263 00:27:44,540 --> 00:27:51,380 whether it's fatigue or neuropathy or whatever it is. I mean, there are people who have bowel cancer 264 00:27:51,380 --> 00:27:59,100 treatment who'll be living with a stoma. And would say then to your employer, there are going to be 265 00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:05,680 occasional days. I'm just going to need to work from home or have a day's sick leave, whatever, or 266 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:11,200 just not come into the office, not any work, do any work that day. Because of that, I will let you know 267 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:18,120 when that happens. But be aware, I will need to do that occasionally from time to time. And then it's 268 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:22,540 a question of just communicating that with your employer and doing it. But you have that right 269 00:28:22,540 --> 00:28:28,440 because of your cancer diagnosis to request those adjustments. And what about people who really, 270 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,600 really struggle to bring it up? Like they can't talk about it. Can it suffice just to send an email? 271 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:42,760 Can you do this? A lot depends on your relationship with your employer. I mean, with your manager, and 272 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,100 of course, the problem often comes when your manager, you've had a wonderful relationship 273 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:53,240 with, is promoted or moves on, and then you get a new one. But that right continues. I would always have 274 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,640 a, I'm a great believer in having an eyeball conversation with someone and letting them know 275 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:03,700 in person, rather than by email. I mean, you might say, I'm going to have to do this from time to time. 276 00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:10,280 And then there's an understanding, as long as you don't kind of take ridiculous advantage of it, 277 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:15,400 that if you're having a bad, a bad week or whatever it is that you can say, look, I'm just going to have 278 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:26,300 to go home. So I think it's important not to just cry on the soldier on. Particularly if you're doing a 279 00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:35,240 demanding or difficult job, because that's when you make mistakes. And, you know, I think it's easy 280 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:41,260 to kind of ignore symptoms sometimes, but equally, it's important to kind of be body aware, 281 00:29:41,260 --> 00:29:47,980 you know, be aware of yourself. If you're having a bad day, and you know, you know, it's pressure of 282 00:29:47,980 --> 00:29:54,940 work, but the treatment is still affecting you, then say so, and make the time to kind of do what's 283 00:29:54,940 --> 00:30:00,100 right for you. Yeah. Perhaps if you are one of those people who really struggles to bring up a 284 00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:04,280 difficult conversation like that, you could send an email saying, I'd like to talk to you about 285 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:10,480 something. And then, and then, and then bring it up so you feel you've sort of paved the way for it. 286 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,060 Yeah. I think it's always, what's that phrase, wicket rolling. Oh, I don't know that one. Wicket 287 00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:21,660 rolling, it's kind of prepare the ground. I'm a great believer in no surprises. Yes. You know, it 288 00:30:21,660 --> 00:30:26,480 surprises are not good for anyone, neither for you nor your employer. You know, if you're feeling 289 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:32,640 fatigued or you feel like you just can't go to work that day, or you need to work from home because, you 290 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:38,180 know, your body is telling you that it's had enough, and it can't cope physically. That is one 291 00:30:38,180 --> 00:30:42,520 thing you can talk to your team about. But what about mentally? Because actually, the 292 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:52,720 psychological emotional effects of cancer stay forever in varying degrees. But, you know, and you 293 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:59,440 might be suffering from depression, anxiety, lack of motivation. Do you have any thoughts for 294 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:06,920 them? I think the psychological impact of cancer is totally misunderstood by the wider community. 295 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:15,200 People think of cancer as a physical illness, full stop. If I take my case again as an example, I, when I 296 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:22,020 was diagnosed, I had no idea I had cancer. I went for a routine mammogram, and suddenly it was, you 297 00:31:22,020 --> 00:31:28,540 know, stage, wasn't stage two, but I still had chemotherapy, radiotherapy. Now, the issue was 298 00:31:28,540 --> 00:31:33,920 the doctors tell you at the end of treatment, oh, we're all done, you're fine. But you don't know 299 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:39,120 you're fine. There's no test, not really, that can say you're cancer free. They use that wonderful 300 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:49,700 phrase, remission, you're in remission. So one of the issues most people have is depression, loss of 301 00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:59,640 confidence, anxiety, often caused by confronting your own mortality, which is not fun 302 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:10,060 for anybody, and the fear of the cancer coming back. And, you know, I still, I know, it was it, how 303 00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:17,040 many years ago is it now? You're coming up to 20, I guess. Coming up to 20 years. You know, I was at a 304 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:23,420 conference the other day, a cancer conference, and a doctor, an eminent doctor was sitting next to 305 00:32:23,420 --> 00:32:28,760 me, and he laughingly said, well, of course, cancer can come back over 20 years after your 306 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:37,820 initial diagnosis. And I thought, thanks for telling me that. But there is that issue that that 307 00:32:37,820 --> 00:32:43,440 fear never goes away. It might, it might lessen a bit, but you know, aches and pains that can't be 308 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:51,140 explained are the common issue that people feel have to cope with after a cancer diagnosis. And 309 00:32:51,140 --> 00:32:57,760 that fear is very difficult to talk about. But I think it is important to let your family and 310 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:05,860 friends and colleagues know that cancer isn't over when treatment's finished. You know, this 311 00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:10,720 is, it's a bit like the iceberg, you know, when you've the treatment is just the very tip of the 312 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:17,800 iceberg, the kind of complexity of the physical and emotional side effects you feel after 313 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:26,460 treatment is totally misunderstood, not understood. And it takes most people many years to 314 00:33:26,460 --> 00:33:33,160 deal with that. So, so when people say to me, and I think I'm going mad, you know, because of the most 315 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:38,500 confident people in the world can suddenly have lost their confidence. They're depressed, 316 00:33:38,500 --> 00:33:45,520 they're anxious. And they go to the GP for tablets. Now, sometimes, you know, tablets can be helpful, 317 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:53,160 let's be clear. But these are normal feelings that you can work through and learn how to manage and not 318 00:33:53,160 --> 00:34:00,340 to feel those things after cancer treatment, you wouldn't be human. But I do believe that part of the 319 00:34:00,340 --> 00:34:10,400 problem as well is, you know, people who can be very ill can look terrific. And so often people just 320 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,560 think you're well, you know, they don't actually realise what's going on within you, not just 321 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:22,320 physically, but emotionally. So, I mean, how does someone communicate that to their employer? I 322 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,420 think it's really important if you can to explain some of that. You know, again, we can help people 323 00:34:26,420 --> 00:34:33,380 find the words. It's not that difficult. And there are lots of very, very good articles about the 324 00:34:33,380 --> 00:34:38,300 psychological impact of cancer, one by quite a famous clinical psychologist called Peter 325 00:34:38,300 --> 00:34:45,300 Harvey, which is called something like Now After the Treatment Finishes, Then What. And there's 326 00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:51,960 actually a very good video on our website with a lady called Dr. Jane Clark, who's also a clinical 327 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:57,260 psychologist about the impact, the psychological impact of cancer. I think talking 328 00:34:57,260 --> 00:35:05,340 about these things is important, not only because it gets you to sort of explain it to other people and 329 00:35:05,340 --> 00:35:10,680 you feel better for doing that, but it's also about increasing their understanding. I mean, the 330 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:15,140 classic thing is most people, as I said, think that once treatment finishes, oh, it's great, we've 331 00:35:15,140 --> 00:35:23,880 rung a bell, you're well. I'm afraid that is very, very rarely the case. Psychological or physical. 332 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:33,420 This is all supposing that the employer or the HR team are understanding and good communicators 333 00:35:33,420 --> 00:35:39,720 and open to listening. But there will be many, many cases where people work for companies that don't 334 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:48,240 have an HR department, it might just be a very small restaurant or it could be a factory or an office 335 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:54,600 where someone's manager just doesn't want to know, just doesn't have the time to listen. What 336 00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:04,360 other things people can do when there are their stories about their cancer? It's very tough. I 337 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:09,900 think it's important to assert your rights. There's plenty of websites and information which 338 00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:17,700 states somebody's right. One of the things we try and do is kind of empower people to say it a nice way. 339 00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:25,220 Look, you need to understand that my cancer is a recognized disability and under UK law, I'm 340 00:36:25,220 --> 00:36:30,820 entitled to these things. There's a way of asserting these things in a way. We're not being 341 00:36:30,820 --> 00:36:37,080 aggressive, you're not being antagonistic, but you're telling people what's due to you. That's 342 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:45,520 what you have to do. There are still some very bad employers out there, but I say particularly small 343 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,680 companies, actually some small companies can be terrific because they know their employees 344 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:56,160 really well very often and can then tailor things to suit them. Sometimes it's the big 345 00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:03,480 organizations who treat people like numbers, like units of production who are rather less good 346 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:10,600 at doing the right thing. We do a lot of work, as do many of the other cancer charities, in running 347 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:20,020 workshops for employers, for HR teams on how to support somebody in the workplace with cancer. 348 00:37:20,020 --> 00:37:27,140 There's you touched on confidence and how cancer can affect people's confidence and in the 349 00:37:27,140 --> 00:37:34,980 workplace, that is everything because people can feel like they can't do their job when they are in 350 00:37:34,980 --> 00:37:40,820 fact completely capable of doing their job. When I was diagnosed with secondary breast cancer in 351 00:37:40,820 --> 00:37:50,280 2022, I've had this real feeling that my career was over, that I was coming towards the end of my life, I 352 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:56,080 was not going to have new jobs and new opportunities. Now 18 months later, I've been 353 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:01,000 very fortunate with my treatment, which has worked really well. I've got a new job, a food 354 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,640 magazine, which is a dream job. I'm presenting this podcast. I'm doing in some ways reaching the 355 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:14,540 peak of my career, but I have really suffered with confidence, I think, over that period. What would 356 00:38:14,540 --> 00:38:21,300 you say to someone who is really suffering with lack of confidence because of their cancer? I 357 00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:27,560 think it's realising that fundamentally you're still the same person, that you have the same 358 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:33,740 skills and talents. You may need to manage things like, you know, there's often fatigue, often goes 359 00:38:33,740 --> 00:38:40,320 hand in hand with kind of some cognitive problems. You become more forgetful, you're tired, and 360 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:46,720 therefore you forget more. All of those things can be managed, but the essence of Laura is still 361 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:54,960 there, and it's important that you understand that you're the same person, you're just dealing 362 00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:00,460 with a few more things, but you have the same ability. I remember, I mean, I was diagnosed a lot 363 00:39:00,460 --> 00:39:09,560 older than you, but I was 53, and I thought, who's going to employ a middle-aged woman with cancer, 364 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:16,920 you know, end of my career? And I remember, you know, having, I was leaving my job at the time for a 365 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:24,400 variety of reasons I won't go into, and saying to headhunters, you know, am I employable? I said, of 366 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:31,380 course you're employable. And I mean, I had lots of job offers that I never thought I would get, 367 00:39:31,380 --> 00:39:39,440 because fundamentally, I had a track record, I was well known at that particular time, but I was still 368 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:45,620 me. I just had days when I wasn't feeling very well, so it's important to recognise that you're the 369 00:39:45,620 --> 00:39:52,200 same person, you're just dealing with a difficult illness. In terms of the services you offer, do you 370 00:39:52,200 --> 00:40:04,100 offer a sort of career counselling, you know, for people who are out of work or look at, because often 371 00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:08,880 people will give up their job, you know, they'll say, well, I was having treatment, it was 372 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,420 difficult with my, my employer was being difficult, so I decided to give up my job and focus 373 00:40:13,420 --> 00:40:20,220 on my treatment. So yeah, we provide career coaching, we don't, we don't get people jobs, but 374 00:40:20,220 --> 00:40:27,360 we help people find jobs. One of, what several of our team, and by the way, all the team members of the 375 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:33,320 team who work with me, we've all either had cancer or a profound experience of cancer as working 376 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:39,920 carers, but several members of the coaching team are career counsellors as well, so they can give 377 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:48,060 people a lot of help in understanding how to do your CV, how to do an interview, how to network, how to 378 00:40:48,060 --> 00:40:54,760 use social media productively, all the kind of ways of kind of getting a job, and we've helped many 379 00:40:54,760 --> 00:41:02,160 people get back into work. If you are a manager or an HR professional, for example, or a business owner 380 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:08,040 listening to this podcast and you think, wow, I need to provide some support to the people in my 381 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:14,780 company returning to work with cancer, what can those people do? Do they approach you? Do you come 382 00:41:14,780 --> 00:41:20,160 in and do trainings with them? How does it work? Yeah, we, if they contact us through our website 383 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,320 or, you know, then what we will do is that there are three, so three areas where we can focus. One is we 384 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:32,940 can look at policies and practices, make sure they're compliant with UK law. On sickness 385 00:41:32,940 --> 00:41:40,280 absence, policies often aren't really compliant. We can provide training workshops of 386 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:46,300 any length from, you know, half an hour to a whole day. And as part of that, we can help set up things 387 00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:52,320 like cancer buddy networks as well within organizations. And we support working carers as 388 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,460 well. And then there's kind of our one to one coaching as well. And when we're working with 389 00:41:56,460 --> 00:42:01,880 employers, we have absolutely unique service because what we do, if you remember I was talking 390 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,700 earlier about the line manager's role is absolutely essential. So what we do when we're 391 00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:13,880 coaching an individual is their coaching is confidential. But in parallel, we provide 392 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:21,380 unlimited support in terms of advice and guidance to their manager and HR on how best to support that 393 00:42:21,380 --> 00:42:29,360 person. So there's a kind of three way relationship. And that works really well. Okay, 394 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:35,060 when it comes to talking about cancer, there are a lot of cliches. There are a lot of things that 395 00:42:35,060 --> 00:42:43,000 people do. And people can say the wrong thing, or they can do the head tilt. Are there any general no 396 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:49,660 knows or any things that people should always say in the work environment to someone who has cancer 397 00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:56,060 or has had cancer? Well, the classic the classic one is just I want to say how are you now? Now that we 398 00:42:56,060 --> 00:43:03,780 tend in this country to go through a sort of little kind of dance of how are you I'm fine. Great. And by 399 00:43:03,780 --> 00:43:08,220 the time you've said I'm fine, the person who's asked how are you was actually walked down the 400 00:43:08,220 --> 00:43:14,760 corridor doesn't hear the reply. So I always say, how are you? And then look them in the eye and say, 401 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:22,320 how are you? And then and I want a proper answer as it were. And sometimes people might say out of 10, how 402 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,680 are you? And you say, are you not allowed to say seven out of 10? Because most people say seven out 403 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:34,500 of 10. So it's important. I think silence with cancer, silence is not golden. Okay, it's 404 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:40,420 important. Even if you say the wrong thing is to understand how someone is doing the kind of 405 00:43:40,420 --> 00:43:49,340 classic manager approach is often I didn't want to upset them. So I thought I'd say nothing. I thought 406 00:43:49,340 --> 00:43:59,080 I'd leave them in peace for six months. Okay. I've told them I only want them to come back to work when 407 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:10,280 they're 100% fit. Well, when are you ever 100% fit? So I think those are things which, that kind of 408 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:16,720 laissez-faire attitude is not helpful. But I'd always say, but even if you say the wrong thing, 409 00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:28,740 best to say something. Absolutely. But the classic thing is you'll be fine. You know, 410 00:44:28,740 --> 00:44:39,860 positive. I know someone who had that and they died. Yeah. I know about cancer because my mother 411 00:44:39,860 --> 00:44:47,880 oblique father oblique best friend oblique third cousin twice removed had cancer. No, you don't 412 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:54,760 know about cancer because everyone is different. So there are I mean, there's lots of all the 413 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,520 websites they've got kind of howlers. And the classic one, I think we were talking earlier 414 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,060 before the podcast was, you know, they lost their battle or they're fighting, they're fighting 415 00:45:04,060 --> 00:45:09,800 cancer. Most people I know, we're all different, but most people I know with cancer don't like that 416 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:15,200 kind of metaphor of a battle. We've talked quite a lot about patients. But actually, what about 417 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:22,580 people, partners of people with cancer, parents of people with cancer, children of people with 418 00:45:22,580 --> 00:45:31,020 cancer, what support do you provide to them? We support them as well. So in some for some 419 00:45:31,020 --> 00:45:36,820 employees, we're supporting not only the person with cancer, but also their carer. And we support, 420 00:45:36,820 --> 00:45:42,020 you know, depends who's the employee. I think carers have a very, very tough time. I mean, it 421 00:45:42,020 --> 00:45:47,060 depends on, again, the relationship with the person they're caring for. I think parents with 422 00:45:47,060 --> 00:45:54,020 children have the toughest time of all because I mean, in all cases, the stress is horrendous. And 423 00:45:54,020 --> 00:45:59,840 most employers are, I'm afraid to say, less sympathetic. And the rights of carers aren't 424 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:06,800 quite as good as for people with carer as those who have cancer. So the rights of carers are not as 425 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:14,220 strong. Many carers will just take sick leave and hide the fact that they're a carer. And when you say 426 00:46:14,220 --> 00:46:19,120 carer, do you mean carer in the official term or can that also mean, you know, someone's partner who 427 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,080 takes them to hospital every time but and therefore needs some time off work is sort of 428 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:28,520 unofficial carer? Yeah. I mean, most, most, most companies will have sort of there are policies 429 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:35,020 around dependent dependence or kind of unofficial carers having time off, you know, 430 00:46:35,020 --> 00:46:44,820 emergency time off to support someone. But most companies don't have carers policies. We're 431 00:46:44,820 --> 00:46:54,180 trying to sort of persuade a few organizations now to do that. So yes, we do support carers and 432 00:46:54,180 --> 00:47:00,940 supported a significant number. And it's often again, just helping them understand what rights 433 00:47:00,940 --> 00:47:08,900 they do have, what the what the options are for having time off. And for generally making sure 434 00:47:08,900 --> 00:47:15,660 they talk to their employer about what's going on. Because again, just disappearing without kind of 435 00:47:15,660 --> 00:47:22,060 telling people what's going on in your life makes makes people very jumpy, very nervous about what 436 00:47:22,060 --> 00:47:28,840 is happening. So I think it's important to be open if you can, but I can't pretend it's an easy, it's 437 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,600 easy for carers at all. But it's certainly something that people don't necessarily think 438 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:39,820 about when it comes to cancer because it affects couples and families so much more than, you know, 439 00:47:39,820 --> 00:47:45,480 it often affects the partner as much as it affects the person with cancer. And they might also have to 440 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:50,800 take time off work. There might also be a huge finance financial burden. So there's a there's a 441 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:57,120 very good again video on our website by one of my associates, Sarah Dawson, whose son died of 442 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:08,660 sarcoma when he was 17, who had breast cancer last year, and whose husband now has melanoma, and 443 00:48:08,660 --> 00:48:16,780 talks about life working and caring, caring someone with cancer and working with cancer. And 444 00:48:16,780 --> 00:48:22,300 it is incredibly tough. And I think it's important for employers to recognize, I mean, there's 445 00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:29,080 something like five five million plus carers in this country who are officially carers who are 446 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:35,100 trying to cope with work and cancer, and they need support. I mean, the workforce is we're not 447 00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:39,860 exactly overloaded with workforce at the moment. I mean, we're desperate to try and keep people 448 00:48:39,860 --> 00:48:46,240 working and engaged with work. So I think employers owe it to themselves, as much as to the 449 00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:52,360 carers, to try and make sure they're providing all the support they can to keep those people, if not 450 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:57,000 actively engaged with work because of what's happening to keep them employed, so they can 451 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:03,340 return to work at the appropriate point. And if someone would like to contact working with 452 00:49:03,340 --> 00:49:08,800 cancer, ask questions, get in touch with you, where can they find you? So they can go to our 453 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:19,520 website, which is www.workingwithcancer .co.uk. And we're also on Twitter, LinkedIn, 454 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:26,420 Instagram and TikTok. Fantastic. Well, we will put all of those links in the show notes. Thank you. 455 00:49:26,420 --> 00:49:31,340 I would just like to ask you one final question that we've been asking all of our guests on the breast 456 00:49:31,340 --> 00:49:38,180 cancer now podcast, which is, what would you say is the one thing that needs to change in terms of 457 00:49:38,180 --> 00:49:44,640 breast cancer in the coming years? So it might be something to do with finding a cure, it might be 458 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:51,440 something to do with mental health, it might be treatment? Well, ideally, they'd be a cure, but 459 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:58,520 I'm sufficient realist to know that I don't think cancer will ever disappear. I think it'll always 460 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:04,580 be part of our lives. But I think what would make a difference is to have treatments that aren't so 461 00:50:04,580 --> 00:50:12,360 invasive and difficult to live with. So I think the issue is how can we make treatment something that 462 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:19,080 people can cope with more easily? Great answer. Thank you. Barbara, thank you so much for joining 463 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,900 us on the breast cancer now podcast. My pleasure. It's been lovely. Thank you for asking me to take 464 00:50:23,900 --> 00:50:29,720 part. If you enjoyed this episode of the breast cancer now podcast, make sure to subscribe on 465 00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:35,660 Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Please also leave us a rating or review 466 00:50:35,660 --> 00:50:40,600 on Apple podcasts and perhaps recommend it to someone you think would find it helpful. The more 467 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:46,200 people we can reach, the more we can get breast cancer now vital resources to those who need them. 468 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:51,260 You can find support and information on our website, breastcancernow.org, and you can 469 00:50:51,260 --> 00:50:56,800 follow breast cancer now on social media at breast cancer now. All the links mentioned in this 470 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:01,520 episode are listed in the show notes in your podcast app. Thank you for listening to the breast 471 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:02,120 cancer now podcast.