1 00:00:01,590 --> 00:00:04,340 KATE MARTIN: This podcast is sponsored by Blue Diamond Garden 2 00:00:04,349 --> 00:00:05,090 Centres. 3 00:00:06,300 --> 00:00:09,470 Fill your garden with beauty and heritage with the National Trust 4 00:00:09,479 --> 00:00:13,829 Collection of bulbs seeds and plants specially created by Blue 5 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:20,659 Diamond Garden Centres. Working together for the love of nature. 6 00:00:32,629 --> 00:00:36,308 Hello and welcome to the National Trust podcast. I'm Kate 7 00:00:36,319 --> 00:00:39,848 Martin, lead ranger at the National Trust. And today, I'm 8 00:00:39,859 --> 00:00:42,888 somewhere very different to my usual coastal workplace. 9 00:00:42,898 --> 00:00:47,929 I've come to London, 80% of the UK population now live in urban 10 00:00:47,938 --> 00:00:52,808 homes where many have limited or no access to green areas. So how 11 00:00:52,819 --> 00:00:56,488 can we encourage nature to thrive in different ways? I'm 12 00:00:56,499 --> 00:00:59,629 off to meet a couple of people who can show me how to grow in 13 00:00:59,638 --> 00:01:01,648 unconventional urban spaces. 14 00:01:06,889 --> 00:01:09,459 LONDON UNDERGROUND ANNOUNCEMENT: The next station is Oxford 15 00:01:09,470 --> 00:01:12,889 Circus. 16 00:01:12,889 --> 00:01:15,720 KATE MARTIN: In November 2019, The Greater London Authority 17 00:01:15,730 --> 00:01:18,760 reported that London has the lowest levels of green space 18 00:01:18,769 --> 00:01:23,510 availability in all of the UK. Just 20% of London is made up of 19 00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:28,169 publicly accessible parks even though 47% of the city's land 20 00:01:28,180 --> 00:01:30,180 overall is classed as green space. 21 00:01:30,180 --> 00:01:32,879 LONDON UNDERGROUND ANNOUNCEMENT: Please stand clear of the doors. 22 00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:34,930 KATE MARTIN: I'm on the underground train now heading to 23 00:01:34,940 --> 00:01:38,089 a London borough that can really see the evidence of inequality 24 00:01:38,099 --> 00:01:41,379 to access to green space, which is Kensington and Chelsea. 25 00:01:42,199 --> 00:01:45,290 I'm going to meet activist, local resident and gardener 26 00:01:45,300 --> 00:01:54,069 Tayshan Hayden-Smith, who is trying to change all that. I've 27 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,050 got off the tube and I am walking through Meanwhile, 28 00:01:57,059 --> 00:02:00,059 Gardens, I've been through all sorts of different landscapes. 29 00:02:00,069 --> 00:02:04,440 I've been through a skate park, more sort of wooded areas and 30 00:02:04,449 --> 00:02:06,610 now I'm somewhere different and this must be Tayshan - Hi, I'm 31 00:02:06,620 --> 00:02:07,190 Kate. 32 00:02:07,190 --> 00:02:08,389 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: Hey Kate, welcome. 33 00:02:08,399 --> 00:02:13,500 KATE MARTIN: Thank you. This is just glorious. So where we are, 34 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:18,490 I'm stood by beautiful ponds, surrounded by colourful bushes 35 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:22,389 and trees, but also surrounded by high rise buildings. 36 00:02:22,740 --> 00:02:23,929 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: Yeah. Well, this is the iconic 37 00:02:23,940 --> 00:02:27,279 Trellick Tower which overlooks this garden almost guards it in 38 00:02:27,289 --> 00:02:30,460 ways. And what's like really does stand out to me is the 39 00:02:30,470 --> 00:02:33,440 biodiversity of especially the trees in this space. You've got 40 00:02:33,449 --> 00:02:36,919 cherries, eucalyptus over there. You've got mimosa, a new thing 41 00:02:36,929 --> 00:02:38,919 to see at every corner really. 42 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,160 KATE MARTIN: And so this area is called Meanwhile Gardens. So why 43 00:02:43,169 --> 00:02:44,080 Meanwhile? 44 00:02:44,860 --> 00:02:47,210 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: So in the seventies, a gentleman called 45 00:02:47,220 --> 00:02:50,089 Jamie Mcculloch, I think he was just passing on Great Western 46 00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:54,369 Road and saw this derelict kind of unused, barren bit of land. 47 00:02:54,380 --> 00:02:56,929 And so he came in here and decided that he was gonna turn 48 00:02:56,940 --> 00:03:00,850 it into a beautiful garden for the community and he asked 49 00:03:00,860 --> 00:03:04,360 permission for the council to do something with it. In the 50 00:03:04,369 --> 00:03:07,229 meanwhile, hence the name Meanwhile Gardens and it's just 51 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,440 flourished since then. I'd like to think it's more than 52 00:03:09,449 --> 00:03:10,279 meanwhile, now. 53 00:03:10,289 --> 00:03:12,600 KATE MARTIN: It certainly looks pretty well established to me. I 54 00:03:12,610 --> 00:03:14,619 don't think I'd think it was a meanwhile place. 55 00:03:16,059 --> 00:03:18,940 So, what's your involvement with this wonderful garden? 56 00:03:19,139 --> 00:03:20,750 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: This is a space that I've cherished 57 00:03:20,759 --> 00:03:24,229 growing up. Often as a youngster, I'd be up to so much 58 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,190 mischief in Meanwhile Gardens, whether it's kind of running 59 00:03:27,199 --> 00:03:30,610 through here or there's a skate park just down, down over there. 60 00:03:30,619 --> 00:03:33,460 So I used to come with a few friends play a bit of football. 61 00:03:33,479 --> 00:03:36,350 But, yeah, as I've got older, I've come to really appreciate 62 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,389 it for the colour, the character, the nature, the 63 00:03:39,399 --> 00:03:40,029 wildlife. 64 00:03:40,039 --> 00:03:43,934 And, I just think it's a really amazing sanctuary. You've got a 65 00:03:43,945 --> 00:03:47,904 railway track over there. You've got a busy road over there. You 66 00:03:47,914 --> 00:03:50,345 could probably hear the police sirens here and there, but 67 00:03:50,354 --> 00:03:53,404 actually within this space, all of that is forgotten. And that's 68 00:03:53,414 --> 00:03:55,244 just a rarity in inner city London. 69 00:03:55,255 --> 00:03:57,335 KATE MARTIN: It's incredibly peaceful. I mean, I am a country 70 00:03:57,345 --> 00:03:59,744 girl. So to me, you know, 71 00:03:59,744 --> 00:04:01,274 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: You're back at home 72 00:04:01,274 --> 00:04:03,854 KATE MARTIN: I am, it's beautiful. I mean, this is 73 00:04:03,865 --> 00:04:07,195 obviously something that's really important to you. Where 74 00:04:07,205 --> 00:04:09,945 does the sort of love, I suppose, gardening and the 75 00:04:09,955 --> 00:04:10,865 outdoors come from. 76 00:04:12,289 --> 00:04:14,710 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: My mum had a massive influence on my 77 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,529 adoration for nature. My mum was terminally ill from when I was 78 00:04:18,540 --> 00:04:22,399 like 12-13 years old. I think that completely flipped the way 79 00:04:22,410 --> 00:04:23,630 that she saw life. 80 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,350 She had, she was a single mother of four of us. we lived in a 81 00:04:27,359 --> 00:04:31,670 council house and, you know, I think she really started to hone 82 00:04:31,679 --> 00:04:35,040 in on just how healing nature can be and it wouldn't be that 83 00:04:35,049 --> 00:04:37,420 mum sat us down at the table and went right. 84 00:04:37,429 --> 00:04:40,269 You're gonna have to understand how nature heals you and how it, 85 00:04:40,350 --> 00:04:42,579 no, it was just in the way that she acted in a way that she did 86 00:04:42,589 --> 00:04:45,420 things and how engaged she was with the natural environment. 87 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,579 Walking to school, she'd change her routes every time so that 88 00:04:50,589 --> 00:04:53,739 the routes were scenic and she would go, oh, you know, look at 89 00:04:53,750 --> 00:04:57,709 the beautiful bark on that tree. And she had this thing for bird 90 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:58,079 song. 91 00:04:58,089 --> 00:05:00,839 She would ask us what the birds were saying, what, what were 92 00:05:00,850 --> 00:05:04,450 they singing today? Which kept us really engaged and connected. 93 00:05:04,549 --> 00:05:06,760 And at times, obviously, we would shrug it off and go, oh, I 94 00:05:06,769 --> 00:05:09,959 like no one cares about that. Leave us alone. But it really 95 00:05:09,970 --> 00:05:17,980 has planted that seed. When I was growing up, my, my ambition 96 00:05:17,989 --> 00:05:18,899 was to be a footballer. 97 00:05:19,010 --> 00:05:23,239 And at about 14-15, I realized, OK, this is something that I 98 00:05:23,250 --> 00:05:27,230 could really make a career of. I mean by no means was I a premier 99 00:05:27,239 --> 00:05:30,929 league footballer. But I went through certain academies so 100 00:05:31,230 --> 00:05:35,940 played for Brentford, QQR, been at Wimbledon, had stints at 101 00:05:35,950 --> 00:05:40,570 Newcastle and then finally got my break in about 2015/2016 102 00:05:40,790 --> 00:05:44,290 where I signed for a third division, Austrian club called 103 00:05:44,299 --> 00:05:45,089 FC Kitzbuhel. 104 00:05:45,420 --> 00:05:48,630 Things had suddenly started to fall into place. So I was, you 105 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,290 know, playing professional football and I was looking ahead 106 00:05:51,299 --> 00:05:54,350 to playing in the season after - I think we had one more game 107 00:05:54,359 --> 00:05:54,929 left. 108 00:05:54,940 --> 00:06:02,250 And I, I remember on the night of June the 14th, 2017, my 109 00:06:02,260 --> 00:06:06,209 phone, maybe at about midnight, started pinging off and I was 110 00:06:06,220 --> 00:06:08,730 thinking, you know, who's trying to get hold of me at this time, 111 00:06:08,739 --> 00:06:11,730 you know what's going on. And it was my sister who'd sent a 112 00:06:11,739 --> 00:06:16,040 picture of quite a contained fire in Grenfell where my mum's 113 00:06:16,049 --> 00:06:17,980 place is literally in the shadow of Grenfell. 114 00:06:19,119 --> 00:06:21,100 So I had to get loads of other messages from loads of other 115 00:06:21,109 --> 00:06:25,269 people. And it was quickly realized that this fire was 116 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,260 engulfing the Grenfell Tower, a place that I had kind of played 117 00:06:29,269 --> 00:06:31,910 in at the base of Grenfell Tower. There was a place called 118 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:33,459 Green Pitch, which is a football pitch. 119 00:06:33,470 --> 00:06:36,989 You catch me there every day. And so when I started to see 120 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,119 images of, of the building in flames, you know, not knowing 121 00:06:41,130 --> 00:06:43,579 the impact of that, not knowing the consequence of that at the 122 00:06:43,589 --> 00:06:47,040 time, I just made a decision, I'm gonna book the first flight 123 00:06:47,049 --> 00:06:50,100 home. So I got back early in the morning of the 15th. 124 00:06:50,420 --> 00:06:53,700 It came back to absolute chaos. This still burning building 125 00:06:53,709 --> 00:06:56,980 with, with people running around trying to find their children, 126 00:06:57,059 --> 00:07:00,640 trying to find their, their mothers, their friends. And so 127 00:07:00,649 --> 00:07:04,519 in those moments, people took to the streets in search for 128 00:07:04,529 --> 00:07:07,250 justice, for understanding and in search for solace. 129 00:07:10,339 --> 00:07:14,700 It was in those moments that nature came to my rescue. It all 130 00:07:14,709 --> 00:07:17,190 started with just picking up litter from this, this barren 131 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:18,899 derelict patch of land. 132 00:07:20,089 --> 00:07:23,829 People would see me and they would come and join me and that 133 00:07:23,839 --> 00:07:26,410 would then create a softer access point to having 134 00:07:26,420 --> 00:07:29,989 conversations. And there was something so unique about how 135 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,320 nature allowed people to connect despite you know, their 136 00:07:34,329 --> 00:07:35,160 differences. 137 00:07:35,170 --> 00:07:38,179 It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, your age, 138 00:07:38,190 --> 00:07:41,380 your culture, your background, your religion, this garden was 139 00:07:41,390 --> 00:07:44,489 welcoming to all. That, that epitomises Ladbroke Grove. You 140 00:07:44,500 --> 00:07:47,380 know, this was just the way that we were instinctively reacting 141 00:07:47,390 --> 00:07:50,470 to something so traumatic, something so tragic where 72 142 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,179 people had lost their lives. Nature just became the the 143 00:07:54,190 --> 00:07:55,540 healer for all. 144 00:07:59,549 --> 00:08:02,559 KATE MARTIN: When people think of a community garden, they 145 00:08:02,570 --> 00:08:05,799 might not necessarily think of an open access area, they might 146 00:08:05,809 --> 00:08:10,350 think it's not really for them. So how important is it for you 147 00:08:10,359 --> 00:08:13,799 that people do recognize that this area is for anybody. 148 00:08:13,820 --> 00:08:16,260 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: There's these perceptions around who can 149 00:08:16,269 --> 00:08:21,350 be a gardener, who can be in nature that are really divisive 150 00:08:21,359 --> 00:08:25,630 and offensive and not so kind and, and I guess by existing in 151 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:30,540 that space, I was breaking those barriers down, but I still felt 152 00:08:30,549 --> 00:08:33,830 a sense of oh like this doesn't feel familiar. 153 00:08:34,059 --> 00:08:37,210 What will my friends think of me? How have I got from playing 154 00:08:37,219 --> 00:08:40,929 football to now, you know, planting flowers and it's just 155 00:08:40,940 --> 00:08:43,780 about building those bridges and connecting people in with these 156 00:08:43,789 --> 00:08:46,690 spaces so that they feel like they have a sense of place. 157 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,299 You know, if you think about someone, who's living in 158 00:08:49,309 --> 00:08:51,650 Trellick Tower who's in, like, let's say survival mode, you 159 00:08:51,659 --> 00:08:54,090 know, maybe there, you know, just trying to put food on the 160 00:08:54,099 --> 00:08:56,580 table, you know, what business do they have, you know, what 161 00:08:56,590 --> 00:08:59,590 time do they have in bringing their kids to this space or 162 00:08:59,599 --> 00:09:00,890 coming down to this space? 163 00:09:01,010 --> 00:09:03,900 Well, actually, we need to all work as a community collectively 164 00:09:03,909 --> 00:09:06,609 to try and create that capacity for people to engage a space 165 00:09:06,619 --> 00:09:09,289 like this. To better their mental health, their physical 166 00:09:09,299 --> 00:09:12,390 health, their well being, you know, air pollution and having a 167 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,979 say in that, having a say on wildlife and biodiversity and 168 00:09:15,989 --> 00:09:18,599 creating these corridors for pollinators and wildlife and 169 00:09:18,609 --> 00:09:21,590 insects to, to exist, you know, because it's all about 170 00:09:21,599 --> 00:09:24,530 coexistence and these spaces allow that. 171 00:09:24,710 --> 00:09:27,250 So we've got to see ourselves as part of the ecosystem rather 172 00:09:27,260 --> 00:09:28,530 than outside of it. 173 00:09:28,619 --> 00:09:30,510 KATE MARTIN: I think nature is a common language. There's 174 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,630 something sort of primal in all of us, doesn't matter where you 175 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,750 are, what your background is. You know, I think everybody 176 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,539 feels moved in some way when you're out in a place such as 177 00:09:40,549 --> 00:09:41,239 this. 178 00:09:41,239 --> 00:09:43,169 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: Nature is a right. It's not a luxury. It's 179 00:09:43,179 --> 00:09:46,460 just about making people feel comfortable in that. You may see 180 00:09:46,469 --> 00:09:49,669 concrete every day, but look at the tree as you walk past it, 181 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,349 look at its form, look at the leaves. It's just about engaging 182 00:09:52,359 --> 00:09:53,609 your, your senses really. 183 00:09:54,059 --> 00:09:56,739 You know, and I make the link between, like with my boys, we 184 00:09:56,750 --> 00:10:00,369 all grew up playing football in parks, using trees as goalposts 185 00:10:00,380 --> 00:10:03,039 and you know, your bent shot going into a bush and you have 186 00:10:03,049 --> 00:10:03,849 to wade through it. 187 00:10:03,859 --> 00:10:06,979 All of that is access to nature. It's just about changing the way 188 00:10:06,989 --> 00:10:09,739 that we see it, the way that we think about it and every one of 189 00:10:09,750 --> 00:10:12,190 those experiences, no matter how big or small they're all so 190 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:17,330 important, we all deserve safe healing, beautiful space. 191 00:10:17,940 --> 00:10:19,640 KATE MARTIN: You know, because you're doing it on the ground, 192 00:10:19,650 --> 00:10:23,400 grassroots, you must see that direct impact it has on people's 193 00:10:23,409 --> 00:10:23,929 lives. 194 00:10:24,270 --> 00:10:26,729 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: I kind of see myself on the side of the 195 00:10:26,739 --> 00:10:28,849 fence of the people that I'm trying to help. I live in a 196 00:10:28,859 --> 00:10:32,039 council flat with two young children - access to nature is 197 00:10:32,049 --> 00:10:35,119 limited. I struggle to find capacity within my own 198 00:10:35,130 --> 00:10:37,830 situation, let alone what I'm advocating for. 199 00:10:37,929 --> 00:10:42,380 So I'm a bit of a hypocrite in ways but seeing how some of the 200 00:10:42,390 --> 00:10:44,549 projects, some of the activations, some of the 201 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,950 campaigns and the impact that it's had on community has been 202 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:48,909 really heartwarming. 203 00:10:51,039 --> 00:10:54,719 We did a, a garden in a local school. There's a green roof in 204 00:10:54,729 --> 00:10:57,739 there. There's lots of trees, there's fruiting trees and 205 00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:59,299 shrubs and bushes. 206 00:11:00,900 --> 00:11:04,640 The children use it every day and when I go in there to do a 207 00:11:04,650 --> 00:11:07,450 bit of maintenance work where we have to shut it off, maybe for 208 00:11:07,460 --> 00:11:10,549 an hour they'll all be with their faces up to the fence 209 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:15,809 going like, can we have our garden back? Like, and that 210 00:11:15,820 --> 00:11:18,830 really speaks to that sense of ownership and the communities 211 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,809 that it benefits, they should be involved in that. 212 00:11:25,979 --> 00:11:28,229 KATE MARTIN: We've walked through all these beautiful 213 00:11:28,239 --> 00:11:30,119 gardens and they're really varied. We went through one that 214 00:11:30,130 --> 00:11:33,909 I like a tiled floor and everything. It was amazing. And 215 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:36,880 now we finished up in what can be decided is a beautiful sunny 216 00:11:36,890 --> 00:11:39,010 little courtyard. It's absolutely gorgeous. 217 00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:41,130 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: This is actually a seat that I was I 218 00:11:41,140 --> 00:11:42,117 helped build. 219 00:11:42,117 --> 00:11:44,210 KATE MARTIN: Oh amazing, it's like a planter bench. 220 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:47,479 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: Yeah. So the idea is taking some really 221 00:11:47,489 --> 00:11:51,869 simple materials to create nature immersion. And just to 222 00:11:52,070 --> 00:11:54,929 sit down and relax and have a chat. 223 00:11:54,929 --> 00:11:57,520 KATE MARTIN: Fantastic! And we're surrounded by herbs 224 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,190 mainly, some chives. 225 00:11:59,719 --> 00:12:03,130 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: You've got thyme over here. Rub your hands 226 00:12:03,140 --> 00:12:03,590 through that. 227 00:12:04,159 --> 00:12:05,200 KATE MARTIN: I love that smell. 228 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,539 So is there ways that people can kind of bring nature into their 229 00:12:09,549 --> 00:12:10,940 space indoors? 230 00:12:10,950 --> 00:12:14,700 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: A window sill can bring so much beauty 231 00:12:14,719 --> 00:12:19,960 and so much produce. It could also enable wildlife. But then 232 00:12:19,969 --> 00:12:24,239 there's also balconies or rooftops. Rooftops often have 233 00:12:24,250 --> 00:12:28,299 full sun so great for growing stuff then and also shared 234 00:12:28,309 --> 00:12:35,650 space. And if space doesn't feel shared or is gated, ask the 235 00:12:35,659 --> 00:12:38,330 question, get to know your neighbours, get to know people 236 00:12:38,340 --> 00:12:39,250 in your community. 237 00:12:39,260 --> 00:12:42,710 But I, I always say that the first point of access comes from 238 00:12:42,719 --> 00:12:46,130 understanding and observation. And so this is something that I 239 00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:48,789 like to call the small space revolution. And when we talk 240 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:51,869 about space, we're talking about spatial space, we're talking 241 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,429 about mental space, spiritual space. It's all about really 242 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:56,570 creating that capacity. 243 00:12:56,770 --> 00:13:00,200 KATE MARTIN: If someone says'garden' to me, I do think 244 00:13:00,210 --> 00:13:04,059 of somebody's perfectly manicured lawns with lovely 245 00:13:04,070 --> 00:13:07,440 little perfectly regimented plants that go all around it. 246 00:13:07,919 --> 00:13:10,739 But I think one of the things that you've described so 247 00:13:10,750 --> 00:13:12,830 beautifully as you've gone through today is that a garden 248 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,469 can be anything. And I suppose it's about just changing that 249 00:13:17,479 --> 00:13:18,270 mindset. 250 00:13:20,369 --> 00:13:22,609 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: And it's really just creating those easy 251 00:13:22,619 --> 00:13:26,080 entry points for people to understand that it's not take a 252 00:13:26,090 --> 00:13:29,130 step into, you already are nature. You're already part of 253 00:13:29,140 --> 00:13:29,780 the garden. 254 00:13:31,010 --> 00:13:33,549 But we have to help people on that journey really support the 255 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,549 most marginalized people and the most disconnected people and the 256 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,109 most detached people from nature. 257 00:13:38,140 --> 00:13:40,820 KATE MARTIN: Then once you've opened that door, then they can 258 00:13:40,830 --> 00:13:42,409 find their own path from there, can't they? 259 00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:44,530 TAYSHAN HAYDEN-SMITH: Exactly. And hopefully that path is full 260 00:13:44,539 --> 00:13:46,489 of flowers and bees and butterflies. 261 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:47,440 KATE MARTIN: Fingers crossed. 262 00:14:00,010 --> 00:14:02,710 Community gardens are an incredible access point for 263 00:14:02,719 --> 00:14:05,770 nature and urban landscapes. I'd like to explore the idea of 264 00:14:05,780 --> 00:14:09,119 bringing nature inside our homes and growing in more challenging 265 00:14:09,130 --> 00:14:09,969 spaces. 266 00:14:12,359 --> 00:14:15,169 I've headed east and come to Hackney, a London borough that 267 00:14:15,179 --> 00:14:19,159 makes me think of music, art, great bars, pubs, restaurants, 268 00:14:19,299 --> 00:14:22,469 and very cool creative residents. But surprisingly, 269 00:14:22,479 --> 00:14:25,229 it's also home to a unique National Trust property. 270 00:14:26,429 --> 00:14:33,799 One of London's last remaining Tudor Houses. Sutton House is a 271 00:14:33,809 --> 00:14:37,710 three story red brick building that as you can hear buses, cars 272 00:14:37,719 --> 00:14:41,559 and bikes whiz past on the busy road it sits on. It's opposite a 273 00:14:41,570 --> 00:14:44,919 college and within walking distance to a hospital, it 274 00:14:44,929 --> 00:14:48,440 really is an unexpected gem. And even more unexpected is the 275 00:14:48,450 --> 00:14:51,919 award winning garden next door that just 10 years ago was an 276 00:14:51,929 --> 00:14:54,789 industrial wasteland. And that's what I've come to see. 277 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:58,429 Hello, you must be Ryan. 278 00:14:58,510 --> 00:15:00,000 RYAN MACMAHON: Hi, Kate. Good to see you. 279 00:15:00,010 --> 00:15:03,489 KATE MARTIN: You too. So you're the site manager here at Sutton 280 00:15:03,500 --> 00:15:05,690 House. So tell me a bit about it. 281 00:15:05,830 --> 00:15:08,460 RYAN MACMAHON: Yes, that's right. So Sutton House is 282 00:15:08,469 --> 00:15:13,219 originally a Tudor residence. It was built in 1535. It's 283 00:15:13,229 --> 00:15:16,604 undergone a lot of changes since then. It's been a school. It's 284 00:15:16,614 --> 00:15:20,434 been a church institute and in the 1980s, it was used as a 285 00:15:20,445 --> 00:15:22,525 squat by the local community. 286 00:15:22,825 --> 00:15:24,744 KATE MARTIN: So the history of the house sounds very 287 00:15:24,755 --> 00:15:27,005 interesting. But what I've come to see is the garden. 288 00:15:27,034 --> 00:15:29,054 RYAN MACMAHON: Well, we can go through these gates and I've 289 00:15:29,065 --> 00:15:32,344 also got Chris who is one of our garden volunteers. 290 00:15:35,739 --> 00:15:37,129 KATE MARTIN: Hello, Chris, nice to meet you. 291 00:15:37,129 --> 00:15:37,169 CHRIS : Hello Kate, and you. 292 00:15:38,479 --> 00:15:41,659 KATE MARTIN: The first thing I noticed are these big metal 293 00:15:41,669 --> 00:15:43,140 industrial looking gates. 294 00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:45,479 RYAN MACMAHON: Yes. So these gates are a hint to the 295 00:15:45,489 --> 00:15:49,340 industrial past of this space. So it was actually used as a car 296 00:15:49,349 --> 00:15:53,609 breaker yard in the 1990s and early 2000s before being given 297 00:15:53,619 --> 00:15:54,969 to the National Trust. 298 00:15:55,369 --> 00:15:57,820 KATE MARTIN: And it is a really interesting garden. I can't see 299 00:15:57,830 --> 00:16:02,989 any grass, but I can see fantastic paved walkway and 300 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,789 plants grown in every conceivable type of container, 301 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,929 including what looked like cattle troughs, old trailers. 302 00:16:11,940 --> 00:16:13,219 There's tyres. 303 00:16:13,450 --> 00:16:16,349 CHRIS : Yes. Being that it was a breaker's yard, the grounds very 304 00:16:16,359 --> 00:16:19,500 contaminated. So that's why they're all in containers. 305 00:16:19,789 --> 00:16:21,989 KATE MARTIN: Well, I'm keen to see more of this Chris as we 306 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,359 sort of move on in. I imagine that there were probably all the 307 00:16:26,369 --> 00:16:28,739 challenges working in this sort of environment. 308 00:16:28,789 --> 00:16:30,905 CHRIS : I mean, with everything in needs to be in planters, 309 00:16:30,905 --> 00:16:34,005 there's a lot of watering. And the ground, you know, it's 310 00:16:34,015 --> 00:16:39,054 gravel, it all gets quite hot at times and you find the plants 311 00:16:39,065 --> 00:16:42,534 start drying out and things you need to keep on top of them and 312 00:16:42,544 --> 00:16:45,025 we've got a quite a bit of sun around here at the moment. 313 00:16:45,034 --> 00:16:48,585 But the problem is in this area in the city, it does get shaded 314 00:16:48,594 --> 00:16:52,275 by other buildings. So you have to be careful what plants you 315 00:16:52,284 --> 00:16:55,455 plant. So they thrive. I mean, it's quite an interesting one 316 00:16:55,465 --> 00:16:57,945 here, which is a curry plant. 317 00:16:58,849 --> 00:17:02,059 You might be able to smell it, it is quite powerful. 318 00:17:02,469 --> 00:17:05,859 KATE MARTIN: Oh, wow. Really strong, almost looks like sort 319 00:17:05,869 --> 00:17:10,069 of pasty lavender. But it smells very different and it seems to 320 00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,250 grow very nicely in it in its trailer. 321 00:17:14,310 --> 00:17:17,969 One of the things that I am absolutely blown away by is the 322 00:17:17,979 --> 00:17:22,239 trees. You don't really think about trees growing in pots or, 323 00:17:22,339 --> 00:17:25,270 or containers. And in fact, is that a palm tree? 324 00:17:25,329 --> 00:17:26,969 CHRIS : Yeah, there's a palm type tree. 325 00:17:26,979 --> 00:17:30,030 KATE MARTIN: I was not expecting to see a palm tree in London. 326 00:17:30,260 --> 00:17:33,500 CHRIS : It really is a reference to what was in Hackney in the 327 00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:37,569 18th and 19th century - the Loddiges nurseries and they were 328 00:17:38,020 --> 00:17:41,229 a family who had nurseries and they bought plants from around 329 00:17:41,239 --> 00:17:45,719 the world and set up greenhouses and glass houses off Mayer 330 00:17:45,859 --> 00:17:46,560 Street. 331 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,589 KATE MARTIN: I think people think of when they're thinking 332 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:54,689 about gardens, think about National Trust Gardens and they 333 00:17:54,699 --> 00:17:57,670 think about these massive spaces and there's like, you know, a 334 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,000 nice shrub there and then there's a nice shrub there. And 335 00:18:00,010 --> 00:18:03,560 this just shows that, you know, you can think vertically as well 336 00:18:03,569 --> 00:18:06,770 as horizontally when you planted gardens and it's particularly 337 00:18:06,780 --> 00:18:08,829 important in urban places like this. 338 00:18:08,829 --> 00:18:09,939 CHRIS : That's the thing really. 339 00:18:09,939 --> 00:18:12,900 KATE MARTIN: So what's really sad to me is that Friends of the 340 00:18:12,910 --> 00:18:15,989 Earth estimate that roughly one in five of us in the UK are 341 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,489 deprived of green space. And I found that absolutely 342 00:18:18,500 --> 00:18:22,380 heartbreaking. But I think this garden is such a great example 343 00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:27,540 of how you can grow and actually get plants to absolutely thrive 344 00:18:27,550 --> 00:18:32,339 in quite an unusual industrial urban space. So, is there any 345 00:18:32,349 --> 00:18:37,152 other plants that grow well sort of, in confined spaces, indoors? 346 00:18:37,152 --> 00:18:39,150 CHRIS : Yes mint is a good plant 347 00:18:39,150 --> 00:18:40,689 RYAN MACMAHON: If you want to follow me through to the 348 00:18:40,699 --> 00:18:41,290 courtyard. 349 00:18:43,650 --> 00:18:46,260 KATE MARTIN: Oh, wow. What a completely different space. 350 00:18:49,890 --> 00:18:52,310 RYAN MACMAHON: Yeah. Really unexpected here in the middle of 351 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:55,719 the building. It's not quite silent but it's as quiet as you 352 00:18:55,729 --> 00:19:00,260 could hope to get in a bustling part of London like Hackney. 353 00:19:00,260 --> 00:19:03,310 KATE MARTIN: Loads and loads of plants. There's a bay tree 354 00:19:03,319 --> 00:19:08,130 behind me in a big planter, a beautiful holly tree over there. 355 00:19:08,609 --> 00:19:10,229 But I'm intrigued by the mint. 356 00:19:13,209 --> 00:19:16,089 CHRIS : You get a great variety of different mints. You get the 357 00:19:16,099 --> 00:19:18,920 usual ones like spear mint. But our most interesting one, 358 00:19:18,930 --> 00:19:20,499 probably the chocolate mint. 359 00:19:20,499 --> 00:19:21,650 KATE MARTIN: Oo Chocolate mint. 360 00:19:21,660 --> 00:19:24,150 CHRIS : I'll just take a leaf off. See what you think. 361 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:25,979 KATE MARTIN: Roll it, gonna get the oils out. 362 00:19:27,310 --> 00:19:31,150 Chocolate is exactly what it smells like. Smells just like an 363 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:32,859 After Eight or a Twilight. 364 00:19:33,910 --> 00:19:34,880 So, what else have we got? 365 00:19:34,890 --> 00:19:37,290 SPK_5: Well, it's quite an interesting one along here, 366 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:40,109 actually. It is actually very strong and it's a bit 367 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,130 reminiscent of certain toilet cleaners. 368 00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:48,239 KATE MARTIN: You're really selling it! Oh, wow. Yeah, I get 369 00:19:48,250 --> 00:19:51,829 it. It just smells like really lemony. I mean, I would have 370 00:19:51,839 --> 00:19:55,229 said maybe lemon grass or lemon balm and not toilet cleaner. 371 00:19:55,569 --> 00:19:59,670 Each to their own. Is mint good for growing in containers? 372 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,319 CHRIS : Yeah, I mean, it's quite a hardy plant and really, you 373 00:20:02,329 --> 00:20:04,630 need to put it in a container. You shouldn't really put it in 374 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,439 the ground because it will spread and then it's quite 375 00:20:07,449 --> 00:20:10,050 difficult to get rid of, it takes over your garden. 376 00:20:10,060 --> 00:20:11,729 KATE MARTIN: And I think obviously what's great about 377 00:20:11,739 --> 00:20:15,579 mint particularly is, you know, I'm assuming most of these are 378 00:20:15,589 --> 00:20:19,900 edible. Yeah. So you can grow it on your windowsill, do a bit of 379 00:20:19,910 --> 00:20:23,199 cooking. Or if you like me, enjoy a nice Mojito 380 00:20:23,199 --> 00:20:25,433 CHRIS : You can get it from supermarkets and then just keep 381 00:20:25,433 --> 00:20:25,470 growing. 382 00:20:25,470 --> 00:20:28,530 KATE MARTIN: Yes it doesn't have to be expensive. I mean, I've 383 00:20:28,540 --> 00:20:31,400 inherited plants, you know, particularly a lot of the indoor 384 00:20:31,410 --> 00:20:35,229 plants like aloe vera or spider plants, somebody will have one 385 00:20:35,239 --> 00:20:38,170 and you just take a cutting and, you know, it's a case of paying 386 00:20:38,180 --> 00:20:40,780 for a plastic pot, a little bit of compost and off you go. 387 00:20:40,780 --> 00:20:44,329 CHRIS : And I mean, that's what you can do with many plants. So 388 00:20:44,339 --> 00:20:48,079 you can propagate them just by taking a fresh leaf off and 389 00:20:48,089 --> 00:20:51,089 then, you know, sometimes just putting them in a bit of soil 390 00:20:51,099 --> 00:20:52,770 and keeping the water and see how they go. 391 00:20:52,819 --> 00:20:55,449 KATE MARTIN: Yeah, you can try these things and see what works 392 00:20:55,459 --> 00:20:58,229 and learn from your mistakes as we all do as gardeners. 393 00:20:58,229 --> 00:20:59,479 CHRIS : That's it yes. 394 00:20:59,479 --> 00:21:03,810 KATE MARTIN: I actually look after a Tudor house with gardens 395 00:21:03,839 --> 00:21:07,869 up north. It doesn't look like this in any way, shape or form. 396 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,439 And I think this is just eye opening and wonderful to see 397 00:21:12,449 --> 00:21:17,579 what you have managed to do in a really unusual space, growing in 398 00:21:17,589 --> 00:21:20,189 a really different way. So thank you both so much for showing me 399 00:21:20,199 --> 00:21:31,530 around, it's been an absolute pleasure. 400 00:21:31,530 --> 00:21:34,349 Spending the morning with Tayshan in the Meanwhile Gardens 401 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,290 and then coming to see the work here that's done in the 402 00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:40,780 Breaker's Yard has really opened my eyes to what can be grown in 403 00:21:40,790 --> 00:21:45,239 what are quite unconventional and small urban places. 404 00:21:46,609 --> 00:21:51,469 I'm a ranger and you know, for us, we like to let nature grow 405 00:21:51,479 --> 00:21:54,589 where it wants to, how it wants to. But that isn't something 406 00:21:54,599 --> 00:21:58,280 that can be done necessarily in these urban areas. 407 00:21:59,630 --> 00:22:04,280 So being able to see what can be done in these small places and 408 00:22:04,290 --> 00:22:07,469 seeing the benefit that has to the people who live here, to the 409 00:22:07,479 --> 00:22:11,390 communities and also for the climate in general is absolutely 410 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:12,349 inspirational. 411 00:22:21,859 --> 00:22:25,010 Thank you for listening to the National Trust podcast. If you'd 412 00:22:25,020 --> 00:22:28,609 like to learn how to garden in unconventional or urban spaces, 413 00:22:28,619 --> 00:22:31,520 please check out the links and resources in our episode show 414 00:22:31,530 --> 00:22:35,170 notes or search for gardening tips on our website. To make 415 00:22:35,180 --> 00:22:38,119 sure you get new episodes of this podcast, follow or 416 00:22:38,130 --> 00:22:42,020 subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back soon. 417 00:22:42,030 --> 00:22:44,800 But for now from me, Kate Martin, goodbye. 418 00:22:49,329 --> 00:22:53,560 Fill your garden with beauty and heritage with the National Trust 419 00:22:53,569 --> 00:22:57,030 Native Tree Collection, specially created by Blue 420 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,560 Diamond Garden Centres. Working together for the Love Of Nature.