**AUTOMATICALLY GENERATED TRANSCRIPT THAT MAY CONTAIN TYPOS***

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In an argument about frequency of sex,

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my now ex-husband told me he had been holding a grudge against me for not making

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more of an effort to pleasure him during the postpartum period.

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He felt that he deserved that as a reward for taking on more household tasks.

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When I reminded him that I couldn't walk for three months without assistance,

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he said,

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you had two hands and a mouth.

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Another one.

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My ex-husband told me that it was disgusting to see milk coming out of my breasts

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when I was nursing our children because they were sexual objects that belonged to him.

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He was 100% in favor of breastfeeding, but only if he didn't have to see it happening.

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I had to go to another room to nurse.

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I finally got sick of it and told him he should leave the room if he was so bothered by it.

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This is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

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I'm Zahn Valines, a writer and activist.

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I publish a bonus podcast once a month for paid Substack subscribers.

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So if you're interested in getting more content, go to zawn.substack.com and subscribe.

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I am here with my husband.

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Hey, my name is Jeff.

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I'm a civil rights attorney.

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Zahn's husband and I'm here to help with this podcast.

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We'll continue to do so for as long as I am useful.

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So this podcast is going to be about what is wrong with men and sex.

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And I want to do a little bit of framing of this issue because there's all kinds of

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sexual problems that a couple can have.

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But one thing that we see over and over again and that all of the data show us is that.

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Women are less happy in their relationships than men are.

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And so what ends up happening is women lose interest in having sex with partners

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that they are not happy with.

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So it's typically the man wanting sex and the woman not wanting sex.

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There can be other dynamics.

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There can be abusive dynamics where it's the reverse.

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And we'll talk about that in a subsequent podcast.

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But for this podcast,

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we're going to talk about the most common dynamic,

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which is that a man becomes progressively more sexually coercive because his

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partner is not happy with him and is therefore not wanting to have sex.

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That must be because of genetics and evolutionary biology.

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Certainly, there must not be any other explanation.

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You know, I bet it is.

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We just shouldn't even do this podcast.

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It's, you know, women have their estrogen and their estrogen makes them not interested in sex.

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The fact that they have an entire organ devoted to sexual pleasure and can have

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limitless orgasms definitely does not mean anything.

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So we're joking and we don't believe in biological explanations for this.

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We also think that biological explanations for this can be really harmful.

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Here's what that looks like.

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Well...

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Men just want more sex than women.

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And so it's inevitable that he's going to want more sex than her.

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And that means she's just going to have to have sex with him sometimes when she doesn't want to.

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But she's not a blow up doll.

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She doesn't exist for his pleasure.

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And the couple needs to work together to have the amount of sex that they both want.

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Yeah,

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it's important to not go to biological and genetic mostly bullshit when there are

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clear explanations right in front of you.

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And I think one of the reason people go to those explanations is because they want

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to justify their own problems because it's hard to admit how bad the problem is in

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your own life.

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So maybe we should look at how bad the problem is in other people's marriages and

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make everyone realize that they're not alone.

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Yeah,

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just I mean,

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generally,

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these genetically determinist arguments across the board are used to justify the

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status quo and to remove responsibility from individuals and society.

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Another area where we see it all the time is that girls are socialized differently from birth.

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There's tons of data about this.

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People will make different attributions to a crying baby depending upon what they

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think the child's gender is.

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And then after years and years of gender socialization,

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the parents throw up their hands and they say,

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I don't know why she likes Pink and Barbie and I don't know why he's so aggressive

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when they've socialized them into this.

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So this stuff about anything men or women do being innate does not make sense until

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we have removed all the systemic pressures that force and coerce men and women to conform.

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It also doesn't make sense because –

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The only thing those innateness arguments do is get you to a generality.

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Yeah.

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And what does a generality tell you about a specific person in a specific context?

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Not a whole hell of a lot because there's plenty of other information that you can

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gather that would make that generality basically useless.

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Even if women did innately like sex less than men or want sex less than men,

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why is the argument that women must then conform to what men want?

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Why isn't it that,

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oh,

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well,

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you know,

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women just aren't going to want sex as much as men,

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and so men are just going to have to accept that?

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Well, it's because men make that argument.

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Exactly.

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Because these arguments always benefit the dominant class.

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So I want to talk a little bit about how bad the typical heterosexual sex life really is.

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It's probably a lot worse than you've heard.

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Sometime 10 or 20 years ago,

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this idea that couples on average have sex three to five times a week made its way

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into the dominant culture.

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There's no evidence supporting that.

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There's no evidence supporting that even for young, unmarried new couples.

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That's just not reality.

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Survey after survey shows that sexual frequency is much, much less than that.

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And I did my own survey on what sex is like for heterosexual couples,

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because what we see in the scientific literature all the time is

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is that they only ask very surface-level questions.

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How often are you having sex?

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And sometimes, are you satisfied with it?

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Because we don't really care about women's experiences beyond that.

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So I wanted to know what women were saying and what women were experiencing.

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So I asked women to rate their satisfaction with their sex lives on a 10-point scale.

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70% gave a score of 3 or lower.

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So it's no wonder they don't want to have sex.

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Like, it starts there.

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That's really pathetic, though.

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Right?

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What kind of sex is that?

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Yeah.

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Well, and these guys obviously know their partners are unsatisfied if it's that bad.

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You would think.

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But... So I gathered some quotes from this survey.

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I had, like, a free answer section where women could just tell me whatever they wanted to.

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Here's some of what they told me.

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He wants sex even though he is unwilling to meet my needs in the relationship.

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He thinks his need for sex is more important than my sleep, being kind to his children, and my needs.

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My partner ignores me until he wants sex.

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I don't want to have sex with a person I don't like.

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He always wants what he wants when he wants it and thinks he's entitled to it.

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He has accidentally done things to me that I have not consented to and made excuses

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to justify his actions as totally innocent misunderstandings.

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How do you accidentally do something?

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Yeah, I mean, this is like... That's gaslighting, right?

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It's not a term I like to throw around because I think it's often overused by

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people who don't know exactly what it means.

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But I accidentally did that.

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What did he accidentally do?

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Well, I mean, this is like weaponized incompetence applied to sex.

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Like, I can't tell the difference between the vagina and the butthole.

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I assume that's what she's talking about.

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Yeah, there's a lot of like, oh, oops, I just put it in your butt.

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And then like, oh, oops, I couldn't hear you when you said stop.

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There's no oops here.

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When I do say yes,

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often not really wanting to,

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his performance is terrible,

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leaving me angry that I even bothered.

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My husband is not great at sex and doesn't seem to want to learn.

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He takes it personally if I talk about things I would like to work on.

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Well, he should take it personally because it's his fault.

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He could fix it.

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Anyway, he is sexually coercive and selfish, and he raped me and assaulted me multiple times.

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Whoa.

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I mean, how many of these women aren't calling things that happened to them rape?

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I'm working on a survey right now where I tested that.

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Asked women specifically, and I haven't released the data yet.

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I'll be releasing it around the time that this podcast comes out.

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So I asked women two different questions.

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Has someone ever forced you to have sex that you didn't want to have?

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And has someone ever raped you?

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And women said in,

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I think,

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57% of cases that someone had forced them to have sex that they didn't want to have.

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And in 35% of cases, they said someone had raped them.

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So this is something called unacknowledged rape,

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where it's rape,

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it meets the legal definition of rape,

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but women don't acknowledge it as such.

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And I think that there's a lot of that happening, especially in marriage.

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Why don't they acknowledge it?

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It's too painful.

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You don't want to believe that your husband raped you.

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But also, I think that there's this idea that like I'm not a good enough victim.

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Maybe I deserved it.

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Maybe if I'd given him what he wanted.

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I think it has to do with how they feel about themselves and their partners.

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Yeah,

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I think a lot of abuse victims don't want to admit a lot of the things that

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happened to them because there's a lot of shame surrounding it.

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That's true in a lot of different contexts too, but I think it's specifically true here.

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I also think that they don't see it as rape because,

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I mean,

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up until,

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I don't know how many years ago it was.

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I think it was like 1997.

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Spousal rape.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, and there's a lot of men who still think that they're allowed to do that.

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I mean, 1997.

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It was legal to rape your wife.

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It means our mothers were getting legally raped.

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We're talking about one state.

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Different states have different laws, different countries.

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But the culture up into the 2000s tolerated this and taught women this.

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And a lot of these respondents are women who were teenagers at that time.

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Well, and let's be clear, we still do tolerate it.

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Over and over again,

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women will have rape that they actually acknowledge as such,

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where their partners will get extremely violent with them,

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sometimes in front of their children.

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And they go to a domestic violence shelter.

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They try to get divorced.

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They tell the judge in their custody case.

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And the judge says, well, you know, what he did to you isn't really relevant to the kids.

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That does sound like something a judge would say in that context.

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So last one.

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I love my spouse, and he tries, but sex is mostly for him.

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And it's a rare and extra bonus if it's good for me, not the norm or expectation.

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I have never been forced to have sex,

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but I have also sometimes wondered,

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couldn't he have just masturbated in the shower instead?

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Yes, he could have.

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He could have.

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I think this captures kind of the typical sex experience thing.

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So what does it mean to try in this context?

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I would like to ask him,

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what are you doing to try with the limitless resources you have at your fingertips?

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Right.

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Stop watching porn videos.

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They aren't going to teach you anything.

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And start learning how to actually have good sex.

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You might actually have to talk to your wife and figure out what kind of stuff she's into.

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And she probably won't want to tell you because most times... She doesn't trust you.

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You're a disgusting piece of shit.

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But for the times that you're not,

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people are real weird about talking about sex and real,

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like,

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shameful.

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And I think there's...

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There's a lot of problems there, but I don't know what he's trying to do.

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It's really not that hard to start laying the groundwork for a healthy and

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productive sex life,

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especially for the men.

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There's a book called She Comes First.

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I'll save it all for you.

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That's all you need.

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If you just follow that rule, things will improve, prove drastically.

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And if you can't do that, it's because you lack self-control.

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And if you, if you lack self-control, there's not a secret.

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You just lack self-control.

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You need to slow down.

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Sometimes you need to stop.

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Sometimes this, this is like basic shit, but like.

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But this is like there are books about this.

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Yeah.

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But I think this dynamic is interesting because it it kind of captures what's going

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on elsewhere in couples relationships where fundamentally the man lacks self-control.

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He doesn't want to control his emotions.

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He doesn't want to control his temper.

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He doesn't want to have to learn how to do anything differently.

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There's this idea where men just present in their relationships as here I am.

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Accept me as I am.

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And women are constantly trying to improve themselves.

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And the men would never accept their partners as they are.

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Yeah.

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I just don't understand.

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I'm still stuck on this.

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He tries, in quotes.

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So she obviously doesn't believe he's trying.

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Yeah,

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if you want to follow up on that comment,

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Ryder,

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and tell us what you meant by tries,

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I think we're both really curious.

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And I think that it would be helpful to hear from people whose partners say that

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they're trying or who used to think their partners were trying.

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We would just really like to hear what that looks like.

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So please comment or email me because I want to know how that dynamic goes.

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And there is one that we skipped here.

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He continues to do things to my body that I said I don't like.

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Using spit as lube, sticking dry fingers, test for wetness.

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Tell him this definitely isn't there.

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He's like, if you need to stick your fingers in to test, it's not there.

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Like, that's pretty simple.

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I don't like oral sex done to me because he's bad at it.

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And despite trying, I can't get him to do it correctly.

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What the fuck is he doing?

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He's probably doing it for like 30 seconds and then being like, okay.

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Not getting what I want.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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We'll move on to it.

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Okay.

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So why do women not want sex with their partners?

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Because that's kind of at the core of this.

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And I was – Jeff and I talked about this before.

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One of the most common pieces of positive feedback I get from men is actually about sex.

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I get a number of emails from men who say that I have helped them improve their sex

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lives by educating them about what they should be doing differently.

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And that's nice, but –

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You know, there's all these articles about what do women want, what makes women happy.

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We're talking about women like they're mice, like they have no way of communicating.

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You know, women typically can talk and communicate in other ways and tell you what they like.

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And so it bothers me.

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That these men have not been able to hear from their partners what they need,

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but they're able to hear it from me.

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And I think that's I think that's alarming.

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And basically what I'm telling men is that sex is not just for men.

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Sex has to be appealing and you have to treat your partner with decency to get her to want sex.

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And the fact that men have to be taught that is so puzzling to me.

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Yeah, I think that's because men just think sex is really just masturbation.

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They don't understand that the person they're having sex with...

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Well,

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let me say something about these figures that we have in front of us first,

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though.

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What I see here, why women don't want sex.

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The two highest numbers, I'm tired and my partner doesn't do their fair share around the house.

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51% fair share, 79% I'm tired.

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I think I'm tired as an excuse.

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Because if you really want sex, you're not too tired.

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I mean, obviously there's times when, you know, the kids are beating us down or whatever.

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But I think she just doesn't want sex and doesn't want to overcome the tiredness.

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And the reason she doesn't want it is because the sex is awful.

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But I think we're hearing from a lot of women who are tired in a way that is not familiar to you and me.

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Because, like, you and I are sharing the burden.

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They're tired...

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in the way that they have not slept more than like an hour or two uninterrupted for months or years.

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They don't get a break.

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They don't ever get any downtime.

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They don't ever get any time where there's not someone demeaning them.

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So I think that the I'm tired captures a lot.

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It captures being really beaten down by your partner and by the life that your

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partner is forcing you to live.

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Right.

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Yeah, I agree with that.

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All right.

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So you mentioned the statistics.

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So let's get into the statistics.

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So I asked women what their reasons are for not wanting to have sex.

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And let's go down the reasons they gave me.

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29% said I'm not attracted to my partner.

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18% said my partner has bad hygiene.

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45% said I'm angry with my partner.

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51% said my partner doesn't do their fair share around the house.

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And I want to add that

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In most of these cases, it's not like they're trying to punish him.

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It's that it's not sexy to have sex in a filthy house.

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It's not sexy to have sex with someone who is exploiting you.

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It's not sexy to have sex when you are feeling overwhelmed.

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So I think that's what that's really about.

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27% said the sex with my partner is bad.

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26% said my partner is mean to me.

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Why would you think that someone would want to have sex with you if you're mean to them?

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I just like what is wrong with men?

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14% sex is painful for me.

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And I guarantee you in almost all of those cases, it's because of childbirth or sexual assault.

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Yeah.

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48%, I have too much to do.

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Again, like, why isn't he helping her do it?

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Why isn't he splitting this load with her?

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33%, I can't relax in a messy house.

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79%, I'm tired.

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35%, this is the one that really pisses me off.

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He body shames me.

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Why would you expect to ever again have sex with someone who you have insulted?

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Why would you want to have sex with someone you're insulting unless you're only

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insulting them to try to control them?

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Exactly.

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I mean, most of these men are doing it reflexively or just to hurt and demean their partners.

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Right.

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Because if he still wants sex, he's attracted to you.

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And if he's attracted to you... Right.

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There's no reason for him to be shaming your body.

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Well, there's no reason for him to be body shaming you at all.

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Yeah, of course.

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Of course.

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But this is something men do with women a lot.

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And it's so bizarre because...

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By every definition, women put more effort into being attractive to and for men.

(00:18:55):
And they also give up more for men.

(00:18:57):
They get pregnant.

(00:18:59):
They give birth.

(00:19:00):
They go through all of this.

(00:19:02):
And then to go through that and then have your partner insult your body is just –

(00:19:07):
So outrageous.

(00:19:08):
So if you are a man who has insulted your partner's body,

(00:19:11):
you need to get down on your knees and beg forgiveness.

(00:19:14):
You will be lucky if she ever wants to have sex with you again.

(00:19:17):
Because,

(00:19:18):
like,

(00:19:18):
I can tell you if Jeff did that to me,

(00:19:20):
like,

(00:19:20):
I would never want to have sex with him again ever.

(00:19:22):
One time is enough.

(00:19:24):
Yeah, I don't understand why you would say that.

(00:19:26):
I think that also men get a free pass on their bodies, obviously.

(00:19:31):
Yeah.

(00:19:32):
Men take pride in their bellies as if it's a source of power or something.

(00:19:38):
I know guys like that.

(00:19:39):
I've seen them.

(00:19:39):
Yeah.

(00:19:41):
And there is no reason to ever make your partner feel bad intentionally.

(00:19:46):
Why would you intentionally make your partner feel bad about herself?

(00:19:51):
To control her.

(00:19:52):
Right.

(00:19:53):
So here's the most troubling statistic about why women don't want sex.

(00:19:58):
Overall,

(00:19:58):
70% of women say that their partners have coerced them into sex,

(00:20:02):
and they say that 52% of sexual interactions with their partners are unwanted.

(00:20:07):
What percent did you say that was?

(00:20:10):
52% are unwanted.

(00:20:12):
And how many have been coerced?

(00:20:15):
70%.

(00:20:16):
That's crazy.

(00:20:17):
Yeah.

(00:20:18):
I can't imagine what this...

(00:20:21):
feels like, how demeaning and awful this is.

(00:20:24):
Oh, that's got to be disgusting.

(00:20:26):
And then to have the guys be like, oh, I don't know why she doesn't want to have sex with me.

(00:20:30):
Dudes, you really don't understand that women are people, do you?

(00:20:33):
Just fundamentally, they don't get it.

(00:20:36):
Yeah.

(00:20:36):
And you don't understand like,

(00:20:38):
OK,

(00:20:38):
I guess if you're coercing someone into sex,

(00:20:43):
it's I guess there's some minority or some percentage of men who feel like that

(00:20:48):
gives them power or something.

(00:20:49):
Do they get off on that?

(00:20:51):
Because there's other ways to like have a power disparity in sex that's consensual.

(00:20:55):
You don't have to be coercive.

(00:20:57):
Have your partner do.

(00:20:58):
If she's into you and she enjoys it, she'll do all kinds of shit that she wouldn't do otherwise.

(00:21:04):
I mean,

(00:21:05):
if you want to have sex like those porn videos that your weak ass is watching,

(00:21:11):
you know,

(00:21:11):
because you can't do anything more productive than your time,

(00:21:13):
then appeal to your base fucking instincts.

(00:21:16):
Yeah.

(00:21:16):
You can't even learn how to fuck a woman, so you have to watch videos of other people doing it.

(00:21:20):
If you want to do some of that shit, you need to get her into it.

(00:21:26):
It's never going to happen otherwise.

(00:21:29):
I mean, I don't know what kind of porn videos these guys are watching.

(00:21:31):
It's the the risk is that they've gone off the deep end and they're into all kinds

(00:21:35):
of crazy,

(00:21:37):
crazy things.

(00:21:37):
You know, porn is is like a drug.

(00:21:40):
You know,

(00:21:41):
there was a question that was posed to you about on one of your I think it was

(00:21:47):
Feminist Advice Friday columns about how can we still have men watch porn and it be OK?

(00:21:52):
Yeah, it's like.

(00:21:54):
Replace porn with heroin.

(00:21:56):
Well, people really like heroin.

(00:21:57):
So how do we have them keep using it?

(00:21:59):
We can't say don't use it.

(00:22:00):
We have to give them a way to use it.

(00:22:02):
It's like porn is not helping anyone with anything.

(00:22:06):
And I just want to add a caveat because every time I talk about porn,

(00:22:09):
I get a bunch of people who have no familiarity with sex work at all being like,

(00:22:14):
oh,

(00:22:14):
you're anti-sex worker.

(00:22:15):
No, no.

(00:22:17):
I absolutely stand in solidarity with sex workers.

(00:22:19):
I worked for years in the corporate department of a strip club.

(00:22:22):
Like I care about sex workers' rights.

(00:22:25):
I want to see sex workers unionize.

(00:22:27):
I want to see sex workers getting paid because sex work is work.

(00:22:30):
What I don't want to see is men acting as if they have an entitlement to limitless

(00:22:37):
sex work and like those women are not people and then taking that and weaponizing

(00:22:41):
it against their partners.

(00:22:42):
This is not an anti-sex worker thing.

(00:22:44):
This is an anti-misogyny thing.

(00:22:47):
Yeah.

(00:22:49):
For example, there's eating meat and then there's the meat industry.

(00:22:54):
Yes.

(00:22:55):
Just like there is sex work, there's pornography, and then there's those industries.

(00:23:01):
Yeah.

(00:23:02):
And the ideals of free expression, sexual freedom, free communication about it, those are great.

(00:23:11):
Yeah.

(00:23:11):
And no one would ever say they should, neither one of us would ever say they should be illegal.

(00:23:17):
But the industry is an abusive nightmare.

(00:23:20):
Yeah.

(00:23:20):
I mean, we have to be honest about that.

(00:23:22):
And somehow we can understand that, like, if I say that retailers are abusive, everybody agrees.

(00:23:28):
They don't say I'm opposing retail workers.

(00:23:30):
The same is true of the pornography and sex work industry.

(00:23:33):
It's the same as anything else.

(00:23:36):
You know, we could all agree heroin use is problematic.

(00:23:40):
That doesn't mean all drugs are bad.

(00:23:42):
So we can say the internet porn industry is putting out content that is harmful to everyone.

(00:23:56):
without having actually stated a position on the theoretical benefit that

(00:24:03):
pornography could have in a healthy society.

(00:24:05):
And there's such significant crossover in the women I talk to where

(00:24:12):
Virtually everyone in an abusive marriage has a partner who is watching a significant amount of porn.

(00:24:17):
Do I think the porn made him abusive?

(00:24:19):
No.

(00:24:20):
But I think that men who tend toward being abusive are also attracted to

(00:24:24):
opportunities to own and dominate women.

(00:24:27):
And pornography gives them that opportunity.

(00:24:29):
It is an outlet for those kinds of men.

(00:24:31):
And as such, it's a red flag.

(00:24:33):
Yeah, absolutely.

(00:24:35):
It's also just a red flag for being an idiot.

(00:24:37):
Like, we don't have much time in this world.

(00:24:40):
Yeah.

(00:24:41):
Watching porn doesn't make you good at anything.

(00:24:43):
It doesn't teach you anything.

(00:24:44):
It doesn't help you be better at anything.

(00:24:47):
You could be learning, practicing, training, hanging out with your kids, being a better parent.

(00:24:52):
And you're just watching this shit that is not going to do anything other than make you feel bad.

(00:24:58):
Ultimately, because that's what it does, because it harms your relationship with other people.

(00:25:02):
Well, with other women.

(00:25:03):
And it teaches you unrealistic things.

(00:25:06):
I mean, look, these women aren't happy.

(00:25:08):
So anyone who's watching porn, I bet a lot of these guys are.

(00:25:12):
It's not helping you be better at sex.

(00:25:15):
Yeah.

(00:25:16):
All right, so what do women say would make them want more sex?

(00:25:21):
It's really not surprising given what we've just talked about.

(00:25:24):
Here's what they told me.

(00:25:26):
10% said nothing.

(00:25:26):
61% said increase romance.

(00:25:30):
26% said work harder to be attractive.

(00:25:33):
20% said take a shower or improve your hygiene.

(00:25:36):
62% said do more around the house or with the children.

(00:25:40):
50% said be nicer.

(00:25:44):
36% said help the woman orgasm more frequently.

(00:25:47):
35% said listen to the woman's sexual needs.

(00:25:50):
I mean, the fact that we have to tell men this is just...

(00:25:54):
Yeah, but what's interesting is the highest percents are do more around the house and increase romance.

(00:26:00):
Let's talk about increasing romance because I think a lot of men will read that as

(00:26:04):
I should bring a flower home from work and maybe I'll make dinner on Friday and

(00:26:09):
then I get it.

(00:26:11):
Yeah,

(00:26:11):
this is the vending machine theory of sexuality of you put a few nice coins in and

(00:26:17):
the sex comes out.

(00:26:18):
But it doesn't work like that.

(00:26:20):
What these women are talking about is making the relationship feel more romantic,

(00:26:25):
more enticing,

(00:26:26):
and more exciting.

(00:26:27):
Because fundamentally, sex is supposed to be exciting.

(00:26:31):
It's supposed to be something that gets your dopamine pumping.

(00:26:34):
And so you have to make the relationship feel,

(00:26:36):
one,

(00:26:37):
safe by not creating a trash,

(00:26:39):
disgusting house where you abuse her.

(00:26:41):
And two, fun and exciting.

(00:26:43):
So that means, like...

(00:26:46):
You're nice on vacation.

(00:26:48):
You're nice when you come home.

(00:26:50):
You make a meal without expectations.

(00:26:52):
Every time you do something nice and you have an expectation that you're going to

(00:26:56):
get something in return,

(00:26:57):
that actually decreases the effectiveness of that nice action.

(00:27:02):
Yeah,

(00:27:05):
and when you build like expectation,

(00:27:09):
like you don't just be flirtatious for a couple hours and then be like,

(00:27:13):
now I get sex.

(00:27:14):
Yeah.

(00:27:15):
The whole excitement of sex is when you don't know what's going to happen.

(00:27:18):
Yeah.

(00:27:18):
And you don't know if you're going to get it.

(00:27:21):
Like think of when you were dating.

(00:27:22):
Yeah, that's fun.

(00:27:23):
Oh, am I going to get to have sex?

(00:27:25):
Are we going to have sex or not?

(00:27:26):
I don't know.

(00:27:27):
Like this is fun.

(00:27:30):
You have to recreate that dynamic.

(00:27:32):
And so the increased romance has to be over a period.

(00:27:37):
But also,

(00:27:39):
I would suspect that the increased romance would happen if you do these other two,

(00:27:46):
do more around the house or with the kids and be nicer.

(00:27:49):
Yeah.

(00:27:50):
Well, and just like fundamentally...

(00:27:53):
I do nice things for Jeff and try to make his life better and his life less

(00:27:58):
stressful because I love him.

(00:28:01):
And that's what you should want to do for someone you love,

(00:28:04):
regardless of whether it gets you something in return,

(00:28:06):
because the person you've built your life with is a person who has feelings just

(00:28:11):
like you and needs just like you.

(00:28:13):
It is.

(00:28:14):
But I think for a lot of these guys...

(00:28:20):
If sex is the thing that has to be tangled in front of them to be better.

(00:28:26):
True.

(00:28:26):
Yeah.

(00:28:27):
So be it.

(00:28:28):
If sex is really...

(00:28:29):
So there's this terrible Reddit called Dead Bedrooms where they give men advice on

(00:28:35):
how to get their partners to have sex.

(00:28:36):
Oh, I need to read that.

(00:28:37):
And it's awful.

(00:28:38):
But the main advice is to tell women that sex is a biological need, which it's just not.

(00:28:44):
But if sex is a biological need, if you need sex to survive...

(00:28:49):
then you should be willing to do anything to get it for as long as possible.

(00:28:53):
So just like do this simple basic shit.

(00:28:55):
It's not hard.

(00:28:57):
So what are men's main strategies for getting sex from their partners?

(00:29:01):
We don't have to ask because I asked women and here's some of what they told me.

(00:29:05):
My partner took photos of me while I was getting dressed and said he would only

(00:29:09):
delete them if I had sex with him.

(00:29:12):
I just know his mood will be bad for days afterwards, so it's just easier to do it.

(00:29:16):
He says if we're not having sex,

(00:29:18):
there's a problem,

(00:29:19):
so I keep doing it so he won't break up with me and leave me homeless.

(00:29:23):
He reduces his selfish asshole meter from 96.7% to 93.2% in the hopes that the

(00:29:30):
negligible amount of temporary improvement arouses me.

(00:29:34):
My partner gives me the silent treatment if I say no.

(00:29:37):
He calls me a rejecter and then complains about blue balls.

(00:29:42):
And then I had a number of women whose husbands all recited the same line about how

(00:29:47):
they were going to get testicular cancer if they didn't have sex.

(00:29:50):
So there's some source that's telling men to do that.

(00:29:55):
They cannot masturbate.

(00:29:57):
Do they not know how to do that?

(00:29:58):
I mean, they don't seem to know how to do anything else.

(00:30:00):
Maybe that's the problem.

(00:30:03):
All right.

(00:30:03):
So then I asked women about sexually abusive behaviors they had experienced from their current partners.

(00:30:09):
And here's what they told me.

(00:30:10):
19% had partners who ignored it when they said no to sex.

(00:30:17):
15% had partners who had forced them into sex.

(00:30:20):
The other word for that is rape, partners who had raped them.

(00:30:24):
10% had partners who demanded sex immediately after the woman had given birth

(00:30:28):
before a medical provider says sex is safe.

(00:30:31):
This can cause lifelong injuries.

(00:30:35):
40% had partners who continued to have sex with them even though they are clearly

(00:30:39):
not enjoying it and don't want it.

(00:30:41):
I mean,

(00:30:41):
to me,

(00:30:42):
this is a hair away from rape and we might as well call it that because it has the

(00:30:46):
same effect on a person's well-being.

(00:30:48):
26% said their partners coerced them into additional sex acts they didn't want.

(00:30:54):
So, for example, they were having vaginal sex and the partner insisted they have anal sex.

(00:30:59):
This is also rape.

(00:31:01):
Nine percent pressured had partners who pressured them into physically painful sex.

(00:31:06):
Again, potential lifelong injuries.

(00:31:10):
Fifty five percent had partners who told them that they need sex while ignoring the woman's stated needs.

(00:31:16):
What is this?

(00:31:17):
Is this really about just them getting off or is this about some power play?

(00:31:21):
I think it's some of both because a lot of these men will do things like walk up to

(00:31:27):
the woman and like hump her in front of an audience and like laugh because they

(00:31:30):
think that's funny.

(00:31:31):
I think a lot of this is like an ownership thing.

(00:31:34):
A woman is an appliance that you own.

(00:31:38):
So I also, I surveyed both men and women.

(00:31:41):
So I looked at the differences between men's and women's sexual experiences.

(00:31:44):
And I think that this is really educational.

(00:31:48):
98% or men reported orgasming during sex 98% of the time.

(00:31:57):
Well, yeah.

(00:31:57):
Isn't that the definition of sex?

(00:31:59):
That's what men think it is.

(00:32:01):
For women, the figure is 47%.

(00:32:06):
0% of men regret getting into their current relationship.

(00:32:10):
36% of women do.

(00:32:12):
And spoiler alert,

(00:32:13):
in the data set that I'm about to release that pulled a much larger sample,

(00:32:19):
the figure for women is more like 70%.

(00:32:24):
0% of men say their partners had coerced them into sex.

(00:32:28):
42% of women say their partners had.

(00:32:29):
0% of men say their partners have forced them into sex.

(00:32:34):
15% of women say they have.

(00:32:36):
And 0% of men reported being physically abused by their partners compared to 12% of women.

(00:32:45):
Yeah, the 40% of time people report are orgasming, 47% half the time for women.

(00:32:53):
And like that's just an average.

(00:32:54):
So it's probably really more like a significant number of women have 0%,

(00:32:59):
a significant number have like rarely,

(00:33:01):
and then a percent or close to 100% like men.

(00:33:03):
Could be, yeah.

(00:33:04):
I think that's probably what it actually looks like.

(00:33:07):
And that's...

(00:33:08):
If I remember the data correctly, that's kind of how it scattered in the data.

(00:33:11):
It was like a small percent said they orgasmed 70% or more of the time.

(00:33:15):
And then most, it was like 25% or less.

(00:33:18):
And yeah.

(00:33:19):
How much do you think that matters?

(00:33:21):
Like how much do you think the quality of sex matters in these surveys to these women?

(00:33:26):
Do you think it's a quality issue or is it a relationship issue?

(00:33:30):
I think that a lot of women will say the quality doesn't matter because the

(00:33:34):
relationship is so bad that fixing that is their priority.

(00:33:39):
But, you know, there's this idea that like, well, women don't really need orgasms.

(00:33:42):
Women only have sex to feel connected.

(00:33:44):
And I think that's a

(00:33:46):
fairy tale we tell ourselves to excuse men's sexual inadequacy.

(00:33:50):
Sure, some women don't need to orgasm all the time.

(00:33:54):
Some women don't need the sex to be pleasurable to want to have it.

(00:33:58):
But women are not different from men in meaningful ways here.

(00:34:03):
They like sex and they want to have good sex.

(00:34:06):
Yeah, I think really what it is, it's easy for men to have orgasms.

(00:34:10):
And when their orgasm happens, sex, that's usually seen as the end of it.

(00:34:14):
Well, and women have such shame about taking, quote, too long to orgasm.

(00:34:18):
Right.

(00:34:19):
And so I think a lot of women just give up and they say, oh, I don't really care about orgasms.

(00:34:24):
as a way to avoid feeling the shame that they experience when they expect their partners to keep going.

(00:34:31):
So if we removed that shame,

(00:34:32):
I think the number of women who say they need to have orgasms would be close to 100%.

(00:34:36):
Yeah, I think that's right.

(00:34:40):
And I think men, like she can tell when you're getting impatient.

(00:34:48):
Yeah, I mean, men are not very good at concealing their emotions.

(00:34:51):
I was in an appointment with my daughter a couple of days ago, and I was sitting in the waiting room.

(00:34:58):
And there was this guy sitting across the way from me doing something on his phone.

(00:35:05):
And like every couple of seconds, he was just sighing audibly and dramatically.

(00:35:09):
And he was getting more and more animated about this.

(00:35:13):
And like I see this behavior with men in public all the time of just making a big

(00:35:16):
show of how unhappy they are.

(00:35:18):
Are you sure he wasn't playing chess and just like hanging his pieces and just

(00:35:22):
being like...

(00:35:23):
He might have been playing against you.

(00:35:25):
I've lost 200 Elo.

(00:35:26):
You know, in this last two days, I'm awful at this.

(00:35:30):
That could have been one.

(00:35:31):
Joe has a habit of waiting to play chess until he is incredibly exhausted and can't stop himself.

(00:35:37):
And so in a single night, he'll lose like, what, 300 points on his chess score?

(00:35:41):
No, it's fine.

(00:35:41):
I'm not good at it anyway.

(00:35:42):
It doesn't matter.

(00:35:43):
I just had to insert that joke.

(00:35:46):
So, you know, so other things I'm good at.

(00:35:48):
It's not one of them.

(00:35:52):
So there's this dynamic between men and women that feels individual and personal, but it's not.

(00:35:58):
This is a politicized system that harms women and keeps them focused on pleasing men.

(00:36:04):
And so it should come as no surprise that society then trivializes women's needs

(00:36:09):
and women's sexual experiences.

(00:36:11):
We hear this when we hear things like women don't need to orgasm.

(00:36:15):
They have sex to connect.

(00:36:17):
Or, well, make her dinner and then she'll have sex with you.

(00:36:21):
Or, you know, women are just different sexually from men and they're not as into sex as men.

(00:36:26):
All this kind of stuff.

(00:36:27):
What's this love language bullshit?

(00:36:29):
OK,

(00:36:29):
so Love Language is this book written by this Christian preacher who invented the

(00:36:35):
idea that people have love language.

(00:36:38):
So like touch, acts of service, words of affirmation.

(00:36:42):
And, you know, it's reasonable to talk to your partner about how they give an experience love.

(00:36:46):
Like that's a meaningful insight.

(00:36:48):
Sure.

(00:36:49):
But this love languages thing has been like really weaponized because what's ended

(00:36:53):
up happening is men always say their love language is touch.

(00:36:57):
And what they really mean is fucking.

(00:37:00):
And women will always say that their love language is act of service.

(00:37:03):
And what they really mean is doing household labor.

(00:37:06):
And so then men will say, oh, well, I can't feel loved by you if you don't have sex with me.

(00:37:12):
And then they go to therapy and the therapist is like,

(00:37:15):
well,

(00:37:15):
you can't expect him to meet any of your needs until you meet his needs.

(00:37:19):
His love language is touch.

(00:37:21):
So, you know, you're just an object who has to have sex with him.

(00:37:26):
So the love languages thing has been like really, really weaponized.

(00:37:30):
And, you know, this makes sense when you think about the fact that like

(00:37:35):
Patriarchy exists for a reason.

(00:37:38):
It is a system that exists to benefit men, not to hurt women.

(00:37:41):
Hurting women is incidental.

(00:37:43):
So women are tools for men's pleasure, for men's growth, for men's finances.

(00:37:48):
So patriarchy doesn't care about hurting women.

(00:37:51):
So if we can hurt women to help men, patriarchy will do that.

(00:37:55):
And for that to work, society must diminish and dismiss women's experiences and emotions.

(00:38:00):
We must treat them as trivial and unimportant.

(00:38:04):
And I think that this insight is part of why people see me as so radical and extreme,

(00:38:08):
because I say shocking things like women's time is important.

(00:38:13):
And if you are stealing a woman's time, you are stealing her life.

(00:38:16):
I treat women's experiences as important.

(00:38:19):
And in the sex context,

(00:38:21):
I don't think that women should be treated as blow up dolls and sex toys because

(00:38:24):
they're actual living human beings.

(00:38:27):
Yeah.

(00:38:27):
So at the beginning, we were talking about.

(00:38:30):
quality of sex or I was talking about quality of sex and kind of making fun of some

(00:38:34):
guys about not being able to do it right but the truth is for me this has always

(00:38:39):
been true I think it's true for for most people I've talked to about it if the

(00:38:45):
relationship is not healthy then the sex is not going to be there yeah having a

(00:38:52):
good relationship is a precondition to it and so

(00:38:57):
I think a lot of this,

(00:38:59):
especially when you look at the high numbers on these surveys,

(00:39:02):
it's not about sex.

(00:39:04):
It's about everything else you've been talking about.

(00:39:07):
Stealing time,

(00:39:08):
stealing labor,

(00:39:10):
being abusive,

(00:39:11):
being mean,

(00:39:13):
not helping with the kids,

(00:39:14):
not helping in the house.

(00:39:16):
And if you fix all that stuff...

(00:39:21):
Yeah, you know, then you can start working on the sex.

(00:39:23):
But I don't think you're going to be able to become skillful at sex and lure her

(00:39:29):
back in unless everything else changes along with it.

(00:39:32):
Yeah.

(00:39:32):
Unless she is asexual or she has a serious medical condition.

(00:39:37):
Being a woman and having hormones is not a serious medical condition, by the way.

(00:39:42):
Her not wanting to have sex signals something else that's going wrong.

(00:39:46):
And there's almost always something that he can do to improve it.

(00:39:51):
Yeah, there's a lot of trust issues too.

(00:39:52):
Like if the man has done something like outside the scope of consent once or in the past,

(00:40:01):
that's always going to be in the back of her mind.

(00:40:03):
And she's not going to be able to relax if she's worried that you're going to do something.

(00:40:10):
Men have to recognize the seriousness of their own behavior.

(00:40:13):
Men often try to escape accountability by like not apologizing or by denying that something happened.

(00:40:20):
But all that does is that increases the hurt.

(00:40:22):
Like the only chance you have to fix the harm you've done in the past is to really

(00:40:26):
take full and ongoing accountability for it.

(00:40:29):
It's a shame because I think the only way most men would never be able to

(00:40:35):
empathize with a woman this way because it would require them to put themselves in

(00:40:40):
her position and that would make them gay according to the prevailing yeah i mean

(00:40:49):
if wiping your butt is gay empathy definitely is yeah yeah i guess they would say

(00:40:55):
that too but i i mean maybe you have to imagine yourself in prison

(00:41:03):
And some dude, you know, is this going to work for men?

(00:41:09):
No.

(00:41:09):
How do you... Because they don't have to deal with this.

(00:41:13):
Men do sex to women, right?

(00:41:15):
Yeah.

(00:41:15):
They don't have it done to them.

(00:41:16):
Right.

(00:41:17):
And so until they understand that dynamic and they feel that sort of...

(00:41:24):
But I think that thinking about how it would feel if a man did it to you is helpful,

(00:41:28):
right?

(00:41:29):
Yeah,

(00:41:29):
but they aren't going to be able to do that because they're going to be so caught

(00:41:32):
up in their homophobia that they aren't going to be able to use that as a way of like...

(00:41:35):
If you can't even think about it because it's so unfathomable to you,

(00:41:40):
that's how she feels about it too.

(00:41:42):
No, that's true.

(00:41:43):
That is true.

(00:41:44):
Like, imagine how it would feel if, you know, I'm assuming you're this straight guy.

(00:41:49):
Well, like I...

(00:41:51):
I've had situations where like I was at a bar waiting for a date and I was sitting there alone.

(00:41:57):
And I don't know if that was a signal or something.

(00:42:00):
But some guy came up to me and was like getting like close to me,

(00:42:04):
asking me if I could help him read his bill,

(00:42:06):
put his hand on my leg.

(00:42:07):
I'm like, get your fucking hand off my leg.

(00:42:09):
Like I stand up.

(00:42:10):
I'm like, what's up?

(00:42:10):
What do you do?

(00:42:11):
Yeah.

(00:42:12):
And like that's.

(00:42:13):
That's the kind of shit that women deal with all the time.

(00:42:15):
And like, I got a little bit of it and I was like ready to go.

(00:42:19):
I'm like, you need to get the fuck off me, you know?

(00:42:22):
So I couldn't cope with it.

(00:42:25):
I couldn't cope with it, which is like the kind of shit that women have to deal with all the time.

(00:42:29):
And so if you can't imagine yourself in a situation like this and your mind starts

(00:42:34):
freaking out because you can't handle it,

(00:42:36):
that's an indication that you have no idea what it is like and what she deals with.

(00:42:42):
So we have a story from my dad about this because my dad has really been ranting

(00:42:45):
and raving about this lately,

(00:42:47):
about how we demand emotional labor from girls and women that we never demand from men.

(00:42:52):
And so I know he won't care about me sharing this story because he keeps telling me

(00:42:57):
that I need to write about it,

(00:42:58):
apparently unaware that I'm constantly writing about it.

(00:43:01):
So he was like teaching – he's a lawyer and he was teaching a class on –

(00:43:07):
like appropriate business interactions with people.

(00:43:11):
And one of the people he was teaching was like, I'm just a touchy feely person.

(00:43:16):
Like I just like to hug people.

(00:43:17):
I got to help them.

(00:43:18):
I got to show them affection.

(00:43:19):
And my dad was like, well, are you doing that with men or just with women?

(00:43:24):
And the guy immediately got like really aggressive because of course he's not doing it with men.

(00:43:30):
And then he like,

(00:43:31):
He started doing this other thing where every time he saw this guy who's a touchy

(00:43:35):
feely person,

(00:43:35):
he would force him to give him a hug.

(00:43:37):
I love it.

(00:43:38):
And say, I'm just a touchy feely person.

(00:43:40):
So, yeah, dudes, just like think about how it feels when it comes from a man.

(00:43:45):
And that is how your wife feels with you.

(00:43:47):
And like, is that what you want for her reaction to be recoiling at your touch?

(00:43:52):
That's horrific.

(00:43:53):
Yeah.

(00:43:54):
And when you do have an opportunity to have sex with your wife,

(00:43:59):
and it's not like one of those,

(00:44:00):
I'm whining,

(00:44:03):
and she's just going to do it just so I can get it done,

(00:44:06):
just because that's her easiest way through this evening.

(00:44:09):
You need to set aside some time to do it right.

(00:44:11):
Do it slowly.

(00:44:13):
Slow is always better.

(00:44:15):
It's always better.

(00:44:17):
Because it always builds up to something that you couldn't get to if you had done it quickly.

(00:44:20):
A slow build.

(00:44:22):
And if you find yourself doing something that is starting to feel boring, don't keep doing it.

(00:44:31):
Don't be bored and do it.

(00:44:32):
She'll pick up on that.

(00:44:34):
Got to back off and do something else.

(00:44:35):
Yeah.

(00:44:36):
You're there to entertain yourself.

(00:44:37):
You could be.

(00:44:38):
Yeah, entertain yourself and her.

(00:44:40):
It's a skill.

(00:44:41):
Develop and cultivate this skill.

(00:44:44):
If you want to stay married forever, you're going to have to get good at this.

(00:44:47):
So you might as well do it.

(00:44:50):
Figure out what she's into.

(00:44:51):
Figure out the things that she hasn't told you that she's into.

(00:44:55):
Tell her what you're into.

(00:44:56):
Take one of those sex quizzes that are online.

(00:44:59):
If you're too nervous to talk to your wife about sex, take a sex quiz.

(00:45:04):
I mean... There are some great quizzes online.

(00:45:06):
Maybe you'll find out you're both furries.

(00:45:08):
I mean...

(00:45:09):
But no,

(00:45:09):
there are some really cool quizzes online where you can check everything that

(00:45:14):
you're into and your partner can check everything they're into.

(00:45:18):
And it will only tell you what your partner checked if you checked it too.

(00:45:22):
So it's only if you're a match that you find out about the kinks and interests.

(00:45:26):
And I think that's great.

(00:45:27):
I think that you should take those together.

(00:45:29):
It gives you something to talk about.

(00:45:31):
So that's about all we have for this one.

(00:45:34):
This is the part where I ask you to please leave a review on Spotify or anywhere

(00:45:39):
else where you're listening to this podcast because the reviews make the magic

(00:45:43):
algorithm make this more visible.

(00:45:46):
Please share widely,

(00:45:48):
especially sharing on social media is really helpful right now because social media

(00:45:52):
does everything it can to make links not visible.

(00:45:55):
Comments and shares also boost visibility.

(00:45:59):
And if you really like the podcast and you are not a current Substack subscriber,

(00:46:03):
you will get at least one extra episode a month by subscribing at zahn.substack.com.

(00:46:09):
And we will talk.

(00:46:10):
And feedback is valuable too though.

(00:46:12):
Yes, yes.

(00:46:12):
Because like if you guys, if you're like, get this man out of here, she'll kick me out.

(00:46:18):
You know,

(00:46:19):
if,

(00:46:20):
or if there's some topic that we should cover,

(00:46:23):
we're going to try to,

(00:46:24):
I think,

(00:46:24):
cover more topics that are a little bit,

(00:46:29):
more outside the immediate scope.

(00:46:31):
Yeah, and we'll be talking later about

(00:46:35):
relationships where it's the woman who wants sex and the man who does not or you

(00:46:40):
know where there's other kinds of sexual problems this is just the most common

(00:46:43):
dynamic so share your experiences with us tell us about what you're seeing because

(00:46:50):
we of course like everyone don't see everything but if you share your own

(00:46:54):
experiences with us then we can talk about them in the context of patriarchy and

(00:46:58):
other systems of oppression