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Transcript for The voice of the child in social work practice

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INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning podcast, where

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INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection

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INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

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INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

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INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

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INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

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JULIAN FABIAN: A very warm welcome to the NSPCC Learning

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JULIAN FABIAN: podcast.

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JULIAN FABIAN: I'm Julian Fabian, consultant social worker

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JULIAN FABIAN: in the NSPCC's Quality and Practice team,

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JULIAN FABIAN: and for this episode I'm joined by two

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JULIAN FABIAN: colleagues, Emily and Damian, to explore the

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JULIAN FABIAN: subject of voice of the child in social work

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JULIAN FABIAN: practice.

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JULIAN FABIAN: So Emily and Damian, why don't you introduce

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JULIAN FABIAN: yourselves and tell the listeners a little

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JULIAN FABIAN: bit about yourselves, and then we'll dive

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JULIAN FABIAN: into today's subject.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Hi, my name's Damien Fitzpatrick and

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I'm a consultant social worker based in

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the Quality and Practice team.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I've worked for the NSPCC now for about

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: ten years. Before that I was a local

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: authority social worker.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Our main role in the Quality and Practice

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: team is practice development and

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: quality assurance.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: Hi, my name's Emily Waddington and I

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EMILY WADDINGTON: currently work in Childline.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: I've been a qualified social worker since

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EMILY WADDINGTON: 2019, and I've worked in the local

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EMILY WADDINGTON: authority and in the charity sector.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: I've always been interested in the voice

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EMILY WADDINGTON: of the child, and previously I've had

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EMILY WADDINGTON: some work that I've done on the voice of

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EMILY WADDINGTON: the infant be presented at the World

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EMILY WADDINGTON: Infant Mental Health Conference.

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JULIAN FABIAN: Thanks for that. Lovely to have you with me

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JULIAN FABIAN: today. So I thought it'd be really helpful

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JULIAN FABIAN: to start off our discussion by building a

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JULIAN FABIAN: strong and clear foundation, and

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JULIAN FABIAN: really be interested in what you think we

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JULIAN FABIAN: mean by the voice of the child.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: So I think, for me, the voice of the

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EMILY WADDINGTON: child is about thinking about the young

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EMILY WADDINGTON: person's experiences, their worries and

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EMILY WADDINGTON: their wants.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: And there's a whole host of different

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EMILY WADDINGTON: ways we can hear and understand the young

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EMILY WADDINGTON: person's voice. And really, what we mean

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EMILY WADDINGTON: about the young person's voice and why it

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EMILY WADDINGTON: becomes so useful is because once we've

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EMILY WADDINGTON: got that voice of the young person, it

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EMILY WADDINGTON: means the professionals can start acting

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EMILY WADDINGTON: in the child's best interest.

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JULIAN FABIAN: That's a good place to start.

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JULIAN FABIAN: One of the things I'm interested in is why

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JULIAN FABIAN: we believe the voice of the child is so

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JULIAN FABIAN: important to social work practice.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: Children and family social work exists

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EMILY WADDINGTON: to safeguard and promote the welfare of

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EMILY WADDINGTON: young people and children, and we simply

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EMILY WADDINGTON: can't do that without an understanding

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EMILY WADDINGTON: of the voice of the child.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: So we need that understanding of their

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EMILY WADDINGTON: experiences, their worries and their

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EMILY WADDINGTON: wants in order for us to do our job, in

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EMILY WADDINGTON: order to safeguard them and to promote

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EMILY WADDINGTON: their welfare.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: If we try to do that without hearing the

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EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child, we risk practising in

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EMILY WADDINGTON: a way that's really oppressive.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: It's important that young people are able

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EMILY WADDINGTON: to take part in the decisions that we're

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EMILY WADDINGTON: making about them and that are in their

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EMILY WADDINGTON: interest.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Yeah, I think the voice of the child is

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: central really to what we do in our

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: daily practice and working with

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: children. We want to promote best

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outcomes for children, and the best way

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to do that is to hear what the children

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: want and hear how to

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: best engage that child in any

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: intervention, promote engagement and

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: work towards...

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Work jointly, I suppose, with the child

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and the family in collaborating towards

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: good outcomes for the child.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So it's all about collaboration,

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: engagement and the child's view and

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: wishes and feelings, I think.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: Damien, just to jump in, that's such a

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EMILY WADDINGTON: good point, isn't it? We don't want to

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EMILY WADDINGTON: 'do' to families or to young people.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: We absolutely want to work together.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: And yeah, we can't do that without the

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EMILY WADDINGTON: child's voice.

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JULIAN FABIAN: Absolutely, yeah. So there's something about

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JULIAN FABIAN: engaging children, collaborating with

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JULIAN FABIAN: children, trying to move away from anything

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JULIAN FABIAN: that would become oppressive or be

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JULIAN FABIAN: oppressive. It makes me wonder about what

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JULIAN FABIAN: barriers there might be to capturing the

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JULIAN FABIAN: voice of a child, or what things might get

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JULIAN FABIAN: in the way of that in social

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JULIAN FABIAN: work practice, and how we might address

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JULIAN FABIAN: those or overcome those.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Quite a few barriers spring to mind,

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you know. You can have, almost like

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: disguised compliance within families —

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: not even disguised compliance, but not

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: consenting for a worker to actually

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: speak to a child, to speak to a child

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: alone, whether there's a safeguarding

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: issue or a child protection issue.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So that could be one barrier:

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: non-compliance and non-consent.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Other barriers could be the type of

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication. There could be a

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: learning disability of the child.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: It could be a non-speaking child.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: It could be a child that communicates

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: through alternative means.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Age — age appropriateness,

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: how to communicate with the child.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I suppose it's important to have a

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: varied degree of skill levels in how to

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communicate in an age appropriate way

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: with a child. Yeah. So quite a few

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: barriers can spring up in the day-to-day

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: practice of a social worker really, I

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: would say.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah, Damien, I think you make a really

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EMILY WADDINGTON: good point about, you know, for example,

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EMILY WADDINGTON: a child who's not verbal or wants to

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EMILY WADDINGTON: communicate in different ways.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: Because sometimes I think one of the

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EMILY WADDINGTON: barriers to capturing the child's voice

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EMILY WADDINGTON: is that social workers can be overreliant

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EMILY WADDINGTON: on the verbal voice only. So social

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EMILY WADDINGTON: workers might not be looking at

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EMILY WADDINGTON: behaviours, body language, facial

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EMILY WADDINGTON: expressions.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: There's something about being open to the

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EMILY WADDINGTON: different ways we can get the child's

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EMILY WADDINGTON: voice.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: Some of the other things in terms of

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EMILY WADDINGTON: barriers, one that's probably very

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EMILY WADDINGTON: familiar to lots of social workers, is

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EMILY WADDINGTON: feeling like you might not have enough

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EMILY WADDINGTON: time to build the kind of relationship

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EMILY WADDINGTON: you want to build with the young person.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: If we can build meaningful relationships

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EMILY WADDINGTON: with young people, I think it's going to

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EMILY WADDINGTON: be a lot easier for us to get and hear

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EMILY WADDINGTON: the voice of the young person.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: And another barrier sometimes is that, on

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EMILY WADDINGTON: a human level, I think sometimes

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EMILY WADDINGTON: professionals can struggle to understand

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EMILY WADDINGTON: that abuse is going on.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: It's a difficult and unpleasant thing to

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EMILY WADDINGTON: think about, so professionals have to

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EMILY WADDINGTON: work really hard to make sure we're open

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EMILY WADDINGTON: to hearing what the child has got to say,

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EMILY WADDINGTON: to trusting it and really placing value

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EMILY WADDINGTON: in it, as well.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Absolutely, Emily. Just to jump in

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: there, you make an excellent point

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: about the time, you know, and I think

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the relationship building, building

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: that rapport. And even if you do have

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: time, I think in particularly complex

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: cases, whether it's sexual abuse cases,

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: it could take a lot of relationship

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: building and trust building for a child

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to feel safe to open up

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and to really hear that child's voice.

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JULIAN FABIAN: Okay, so a range of things that might get in

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JULIAN FABIAN: the way of us hearing the voice of the

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JULIAN FABIAN: child, whether it's a disability or some

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JULIAN FABIAN: medical barrier, whether it's time

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JULIAN FABIAN: constraints, whether it's parents or

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JULIAN FABIAN: carers having a worry in terms of allowing

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JULIAN FABIAN: access to the child, whether it's a child

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JULIAN FABIAN: having a worry. So a range of things that

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JULIAN FABIAN: maybe need a range of solutions and we can

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JULIAN FABIAN: come on to talk about those in a minute.

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JULIAN FABIAN: One of the things I noticed you talked about

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JULIAN FABIAN: was about children speaking, or

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JULIAN FABIAN: being pre-speaking or non-speaking.

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JULIAN FABIAN: I think the previous language we used was

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JULIAN FABIAN: pre-verbal, verbal and non-verbal.

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JULIAN FABIAN: So I'm interested if you could talk a little

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JULIAN FABIAN: bit about the the rationale for the change

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JULIAN FABIAN: in language and why that might be helpful.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: The language has quite correctly

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: changed because a lot of children who

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: are who would have been considered

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: non-verbal now can communicate and

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: actually verbalise their feelings

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: through other means, really, so they

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: can speak.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: For instance, I suppose a good example

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: of this would be, augmentative

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication, where some disabled

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: children, for instance, would use high

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: tech devices to communicate.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: There's also things like communication books,

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: simple communication, right down

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to your kind of your simple makaton,

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: stuff like that. So I think we've made

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: a lot of advances.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So we've moved on and quite rightly,

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the terminology has moved on along with

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: that.

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JULIAN FABIAN: So we want to move away from language that

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JULIAN FABIAN: might potentially be stigmatising or exclude

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JULIAN FABIAN: children.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah. And I think that helps

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EMILY WADDINGTON: professionals to be a bit more open as

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EMILY WADDINGTON: well, doesn't it? Because we're not just

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EMILY WADDINGTON: thinking about the verbal communication.

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EMILY WADDINGTON: When we change the language, as

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EMILY WADDINGTON: professionals you become more open to

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EMILY WADDINGTON: seeing many other forms of communication,

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EMILY WADDINGTON: which is totally necessary to help us

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EMILY WADDINGTON: gather as much information from as many

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EMILY WADDINGTON: different means as possible about, you

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EMILY WADDINGTON: know, the voice of the young person, to

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EMILY WADDINGTON: really help us understand.

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JULIAN FABIAN: It's thinking that if we get our language

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JULIAN FABIAN: right, we get our thinking right.

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JULIAN FABIAN: If we get our thinking right, that affects

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JULIAN FABIAN: our practice in terms of improving outcomes

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JULIAN FABIAN: for children.

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DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And I suppose that adds to the point

00:09:04,780 → 00:09:06,489

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: where communication is not just

00:09:06,490 → 00:09:07,928

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: language and speaking, you know.

00:09:07,929 → 00:09:09,549

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: It's behaviour.

00:09:09,550 → 00:09:11,319

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Just what's sprung to my mind, it's why

00:09:11,320 → 00:09:13,539

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: observations of behaviour are perhaps

00:09:13,540 → 00:09:15,849

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: key and so important in communication.

00:09:15,850 → 00:09:19,299

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Just observing the interactions,

00:09:19,300 → 00:09:21,279

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the behaviour of the child, how they

00:09:21,280 → 00:09:23,349

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: feel, how they interact with perhaps an

00:09:23,350 → 00:09:25,749

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: adult, the adults around them, how they

00:09:25,750 → 00:09:27,669

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: interact in different environments, how

00:09:27,670 → 00:09:30,759

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: they interact in a school setting or

00:09:30,760 → 00:09:32,220

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: a home setting, or while

00:09:34,090 → 00:09:36,429

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: in dad's care as opposed to while in

00:09:36,430 → 00:09:38,649

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: mum's care, and what those environmental

00:09:38,650 → 00:09:40,389

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: behaviours are telling us about a

00:09:40,390 → 00:09:42,219

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child's communication and their wishes

00:09:42,220 → 00:09:43,509

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and feelings.

00:09:43,510 → 00:09:45,339

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: How do they inform us as our social

00:09:45,340 → 00:09:46,749

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: workers? How do they inform our

00:09:46,750 → 00:09:49,029

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment? How do they inform our work

00:09:49,030 → 00:09:51,789

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: plan going forward, and how we conduct

00:09:51,790 → 00:09:53,799

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: our intervention and how we engage that

00:09:53,800 → 00:09:55,539

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child moving forward as our work

00:09:55,540 → 00:09:56,540

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: progresses?

00:09:57,040 → 00:09:58,839

EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah. Damien, I think you're totally

00:09:58,840 → 00:10:00,669

EMILY WADDINGTON: right and there's so many valid points in

00:10:00,670 → 00:10:03,009

EMILY WADDINGTON: there. One thing that I really love and

00:10:03,010 → 00:10:05,409

EMILY WADDINGTON: think is so important about considering

00:10:05,410 → 00:10:07,479

EMILY WADDINGTON: other forms of communication outside of

00:10:07,480 → 00:10:10,329

EMILY WADDINGTON: speaking, is it's something about perhaps

00:10:10,330 → 00:10:11,979

EMILY WADDINGTON: taking off the pressure and

00:10:11,980 → 00:10:14,739

EMILY WADDINGTON: responsibility of a young person to say

00:10:14,740 → 00:10:16,527

EMILY WADDINGTON: something out loud which can just feel so

00:10:16,528 → 00:10:19,189

EMILY WADDINGTON: incredibly scary.

00:10:19,190 → 00:10:20,559

EMILY WADDINGTON: Quite often we might have young people

00:10:20,560 → 00:10:22,569

EMILY WADDINGTON: who are being abused who feel a sense of

00:10:22,570 → 00:10:24,399

EMILY WADDINGTON: loyalty towards the person who is

00:10:24,400 → 00:10:25,809

EMILY WADDINGTON: perpetrating the abuse.

00:10:25,810 → 00:10:28,629

EMILY WADDINGTON: And if we can be open to seeing and

00:10:28,630 → 00:10:31,719

EMILY WADDINGTON: hearing other forms of communication, we

00:10:31,720 → 00:10:33,129

EMILY WADDINGTON: can almost take some pressure or

00:10:33,130 → 00:10:35,229

EMILY WADDINGTON: responsibility of that young person.

00:10:35,230 → 00:10:37,569

EMILY WADDINGTON: So it's not, "why didn't you tell us?"

00:10:37,570 → 00:10:38,919

EMILY WADDINGTON: It's "why didn't we look?

00:10:38,920 → 00:10:40,959

EMILY WADDINGTON: How can we see more what you're trying to

00:10:40,960 → 00:10:42,399

EMILY WADDINGTON: tell us?" And I think that's so

00:10:42,400 → 00:10:43,669

EMILY WADDINGTON: important.

00:10:43,670 → 00:10:46,029

JULIAN FABIAN: It feels we're now moving on, having laid

00:10:46,030 → 00:10:47,469

JULIAN FABIAN: the foundations of what the voice of the

00:10:47,470 → 00:10:49,419

JULIAN FABIAN: child is and why it's important and how we

00:10:49,420 → 00:10:51,167

JULIAN FABIAN: talk about children and the voice of child,

00:10:51,168 → 00:10:53,409

JULIAN FABIAN: to thinking about what that looks like in

00:10:53,410 → 00:10:56,379

JULIAN FABIAN: practice. I'm interested in, if I saw

00:10:56,380 → 00:10:58,319

JULIAN FABIAN: you 'doing' the voice of child in social

00:10:58,320 → 00:11:00,609

JULIAN FABIAN: work practice, what might that look like

00:11:00,610 → 00:11:01,929

JULIAN FABIAN: practically?

00:11:01,930 → 00:11:04,659

EMILY WADDINGTON: So I used to work in a team where we

00:11:04,660 → 00:11:05,660

EMILY WADDINGTON: would have...

00:11:06,610 → 00:11:08,469

EMILY WADDINGTON: If there was a professionals meeting, so

00:11:08,470 → 00:11:10,539

EMILY WADDINGTON: if it was a case of families and young

00:11:10,540 → 00:11:12,789

EMILY WADDINGTON: people not being invited to that meeting,

00:11:12,790 → 00:11:15,579

EMILY WADDINGTON: we would have a professional act as the

00:11:15,580 → 00:11:17,379

EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child in that meeting.

00:11:17,380 → 00:11:19,239

EMILY WADDINGTON: And that was so powerful.

00:11:19,240 → 00:11:21,459

EMILY WADDINGTON: Everyone would go around and give their

00:11:21,460 → 00:11:24,039

EMILY WADDINGTON: updates and their professional opinion,

00:11:24,040 → 00:11:26,049

EMILY WADDINGTON: and then the person who was acting as the

00:11:26,050 → 00:11:29,259

EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child would give a summary,

00:11:29,260 → 00:11:31,779

EMILY WADDINGTON: talk about how they think that might have

00:11:31,780 → 00:11:34,209

EMILY WADDINGTON: felt for the young person, what they

00:11:34,210 → 00:11:36,789

EMILY WADDINGTON: might need, what their experiences are.

00:11:36,790 → 00:11:38,092

EMILY WADDINGTON: And this was so powerful.

00:11:38,093 → 00:11:41,919

EMILY WADDINGTON: It meant the voice of the young person

00:11:41,920 → 00:11:43,839

EMILY WADDINGTON: had the same amount of time, the same

00:11:43,840 → 00:11:46,179

EMILY WADDINGTON: weight, the same value as what everyone

00:11:46,180 → 00:11:48,519

EMILY WADDINGTON: else was saying in the meeting.

00:11:48,520 → 00:11:50,709

EMILY WADDINGTON: But also for me personally, when I was in

00:11:50,710 → 00:11:54,369

EMILY WADDINGTON: that role, I found it very emotional,

00:11:54,370 → 00:11:56,709

EMILY WADDINGTON: sometimes quite draining, and that was

00:11:56,710 → 00:11:58,899

EMILY WADDINGTON: also such useful information as well.

00:11:58,900 → 00:12:01,339

EMILY WADDINGTON: It helped me to maybe understand the

00:12:01,340 → 00:12:02,739

EMILY WADDINGTON: young person I was working with a bit

00:12:02,740 → 00:12:05,169

EMILY WADDINGTON: more, try to put them in context,

00:12:05,170 → 00:12:06,789

EMILY WADDINGTON: increased empathy, increased

00:12:06,790 → 00:12:08,079

EMILY WADDINGTON: understanding for them.

00:12:08,080 → 00:12:11,079

EMILY WADDINGTON: That's something I've done in meetings

00:12:11,080 → 00:12:13,359

EMILY WADDINGTON: before, and I found to be really, really

00:12:13,360 → 00:12:15,129

EMILY WADDINGTON: powerful and really useful.

00:12:15,130 → 00:12:17,379

JULIAN FABIAN: So there's something about how that helped

00:12:17,380 → 00:12:20,349

JULIAN FABIAN: to keep the voice of the child or

00:12:20,350 → 00:12:22,449

JULIAN FABIAN: their lived experience, their world, front

00:12:22,450 → 00:12:25,329

JULIAN FABIAN: and centre to your thinking, and your

00:12:25,330 → 00:12:27,999

JULIAN FABIAN: assessment and your intervention.

00:12:28,000 → 00:12:30,069

EMILY WADDINGTON: Absolutely. And I think it's also

00:12:30,070 → 00:12:32,529

EMILY WADDINGTON: important just to add in that where we've

00:12:32,530 → 00:12:34,239

EMILY WADDINGTON: got meetings with the young person and

00:12:34,240 → 00:12:36,339

EMILY WADDINGTON: the family there we want to give them

00:12:36,340 → 00:12:39,369

EMILY WADDINGTON: that space. Maybe prepare them in advance

00:12:39,370 → 00:12:40,546

EMILY WADDINGTON: about what they might want to say, but

00:12:41,710 → 00:12:43,509

EMILY WADDINGTON: making sure where there's those meetings

00:12:43,510 → 00:12:45,459

EMILY WADDINGTON: where the young person can't be present,

00:12:45,460 → 00:12:48,369

EMILY WADDINGTON: that we're still giving them space, room

00:12:48,370 → 00:12:51,009

EMILY WADDINGTON: and real validity in those meetings.

00:12:51,010 → 00:12:52,729

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I agree. It's very much about treating

00:12:52,730 → 00:12:54,309

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the child like they're an expert in

00:12:54,310 → 00:12:56,949

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: their own life, really, and about

00:12:56,950 → 00:12:58,959

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: including them in all of the work,

00:12:58,960 → 00:13:02,559

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: whether it is your assessments,

00:13:02,560 → 00:13:04,601

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: your work plans, your desired outcomes,

00:13:04,602 → 00:13:06,399

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and at every point in your

00:13:06,400 → 00:13:08,019

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: intervention, perhaps getting the

00:13:08,020 → 00:13:10,594

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child's views on that piece of work.

00:13:10,595 → 00:13:12,890

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: As a consultant social worker reviewing

00:13:13,990 → 00:13:16,329

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: casework, some of the most impressive

00:13:16,330 → 00:13:19,449

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: cases are those where the practitioner

00:13:19,450 → 00:13:21,579

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: will actually sit with the child, go

00:13:21,580 → 00:13:22,840

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: through their assessment point-by-point,

00:13:24,880 → 00:13:26,679

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and get the child's views about that

00:13:26,680 → 00:13:28,839

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: point, whether it's a risk or whether

00:13:28,840 → 00:13:30,489

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: it's a desired outcome.

00:13:30,490 → 00:13:32,529

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And all of that can be directly linked

00:13:32,530 → 00:13:33,530

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to the work plan then.

00:13:34,270 → 00:13:36,039

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Any of the cases that I would deem

00:13:36,040 → 00:13:37,989

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outstanding will have that voice of the

00:13:37,990 → 00:13:40,089

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child element in them from the

00:13:40,090 → 00:13:41,949

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: beginning of the case right towards the

00:13:41,950 → 00:13:43,959

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: end. And at every junction of the case

00:13:43,960 → 00:13:46,329

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: where the child is actually, kind of,

00:13:46,330 → 00:13:48,579

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: almost consulted and collaborated in

00:13:48,580 → 00:13:51,219

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: all of the work, and can actually

00:13:51,220 → 00:13:53,319

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: direct the work to an extent to

00:13:55,060 → 00:13:56,739

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: meet a need that they've identified

00:13:56,740 → 00:13:58,209

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: themselves. As I say, treating the

00:13:58,210 → 00:13:59,559

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child like an expert in their own

00:13:59,560 → 00:14:00,969

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: lives, you know.

00:14:00,970 → 00:14:02,739

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: What I would say practically too, in

00:14:02,740 → 00:14:04,899

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: casework, because of what we've just

00:14:04,900 → 00:14:07,179

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: said — about the many barriers, for

00:14:07,180 → 00:14:08,739

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: instance, the many types of

00:14:08,740 → 00:14:11,139

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication — is it's always good to

00:14:11,140 → 00:14:12,849

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: consult a fellow professional, whether

00:14:12,850 → 00:14:15,909

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: it's a speech and language expert or a

00:14:15,910 → 00:14:17,949

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: teacher at school or someone else that

00:14:17,950 → 00:14:21,279

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: will have a greater degree of

00:14:21,280 → 00:14:23,019

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: knowledge in how to best communicate

00:14:23,020 → 00:14:25,029

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: with that child or a parent.

00:14:25,030 → 00:14:27,789

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So taking on board that and learning

00:14:27,790 → 00:14:29,529

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: new skills as you go along in your

00:14:29,530 → 00:14:31,329

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: work. So an almost, kind of. Reflection

00:14:31,330 → 00:14:34,059

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and action aspect about it.

00:14:34,060 → 00:14:35,469

EMILY WADDINGTON: I love how you describe that.

00:14:35,470 → 00:14:38,049

EMILY WADDINGTON: That's so, I think, humble from a

00:14:38,050 → 00:14:39,759

EMILY WADDINGTON: professional point of view.

00:14:39,760 → 00:14:42,219

EMILY WADDINGTON: So you're going in to see this young

00:14:42,220 → 00:14:44,469

EMILY WADDINGTON: person. Who else knows this young person?

00:14:44,470 → 00:14:46,359

EMILY WADDINGTON: How can they help you build a

00:14:46,360 → 00:14:48,699

EMILY WADDINGTON: relationship with them, which is great,

00:14:48,700 → 00:14:51,249

EMILY WADDINGTON: but also about them being the expert in

00:14:51,250 → 00:14:53,139

EMILY WADDINGTON: their own lives? I think that comes

00:14:53,140 → 00:14:55,149

EMILY WADDINGTON: through so strongly in how you talk,

00:14:55,150 → 00:14:56,417

EMILY WADDINGTON: Damien, but especially when we're

00:14:56,418 → 00:14:58,179

EMILY WADDINGTON: thinking about about the voice of the child,

00:14:58,180 → 00:15:00,369

EMILY WADDINGTON: it's always got to be about that

00:15:00,370 → 00:15:02,799

EMILY WADDINGTON: collaboration and that informing the work

00:15:02,800 → 00:15:05,469

EMILY WADDINGTON: that we do, rather than is excluding the

00:15:05,470 → 00:15:07,089

EMILY WADDINGTON: child from this completely thinking we

00:15:07,090 → 00:15:09,519

EMILY WADDINGTON: know best, which is much more damaging,

00:15:09,520 → 00:15:12,069

EMILY WADDINGTON: unhelpful and ultimately ineffective.

00:15:12,070 → 00:15:13,449

EMILY WADDINGTON: I think it's how I've described it.

00:15:13,450 → 00:15:14,829

EMILY WADDINGTON: It's really helpful.

00:15:14,830 → 00:15:17,889

JULIAN FABIAN: So where you as a social worker aren't able

00:15:17,890 → 00:15:19,899

JULIAN FABIAN: to sit in the room with a child — because I

00:15:19,900 → 00:15:21,819

JULIAN FABIAN: think the example you gave Damien was really

00:15:21,820 → 00:15:23,869

JULIAN FABIAN: helpful about the the worker sitting in the

00:15:23,870 → 00:15:25,429

JULIAN FABIAN: room with the child and speaking to him and

00:15:25,430 → 00:15:27,949

JULIAN FABIAN: listening to him. Where that's physically

00:15:27,950 → 00:15:30,979

JULIAN FABIAN: not possible, what might capturing the voice

00:15:30,980 → 00:15:33,559

JULIAN FABIAN: of the child look like in social work

00:15:33,560 → 00:15:34,879

JULIAN FABIAN: practice?

00:15:34,880 → 00:15:36,001

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: For me, observation is key.

00:15:37,280 → 00:15:39,379

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: What immediately would spring to mind

00:15:39,380 → 00:15:41,149

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: is perhaps an unborn child, if you're

00:15:41,150 → 00:15:43,309

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: working with a pregnant mum, for

00:15:43,310 → 00:15:46,249

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: instance. So a lot of observation about

00:15:46,250 → 00:15:48,799

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the preparation for the unborn child,

00:15:48,800 → 00:15:50,537

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the level of support of both parents

00:15:50,538 → 00:15:52,759

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and how they talk about the unborn

00:15:52,760 → 00:15:54,559

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child. So all are indicators.

00:15:57,290 → 00:15:58,939

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: You can indicate what would be safe for

00:15:58,940 → 00:16:00,709

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: this child, what is good for this child

00:16:00,710 → 00:16:02,299

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and what this child wants. Ultimately

00:16:02,300 → 00:16:03,799

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: what the... If we're talking about an

00:16:03,800 → 00:16:05,989

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: unborn child, they want to arrive into

00:16:05,990 → 00:16:07,543

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: a safe, secure and happy environment,

00:16:07,544 → 00:16:09,559

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you know. And a lot of your

00:16:09,560 → 00:16:12,889

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: observations, as a practitioner,

00:16:12,890 → 00:16:14,479

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you will have a fair amount of

00:16:14,480 → 00:16:17,029

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: indicators of that, that you can then

00:16:17,030 → 00:16:18,889

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: build into your analysis to paint a

00:16:18,890 → 00:16:19,999

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: picture.

00:16:20,000 → 00:16:21,829

EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah, I think for me it's about getting

00:16:21,830 → 00:16:24,799

EMILY WADDINGTON: those observations where you can.

00:16:24,800 → 00:16:26,119

EMILY WADDINGTON: And also I think trying to offer

00:16:26,120 → 00:16:28,219

EMILY WADDINGTON: different means of communication, like if

00:16:28,220 → 00:16:31,399

EMILY WADDINGTON: you can't be there in person talking

00:16:31,400 → 00:16:33,349

EMILY WADDINGTON: to the young person. I've had young

00:16:33,350 → 00:16:35,569

EMILY WADDINGTON: people who might find video calls maybe a

00:16:35,570 → 00:16:37,849

EMILY WADDINGTON: bit overwhelming or a bit frightening.

00:16:37,850 → 00:16:39,499

EMILY WADDINGTON: So they prefer a voice call, or they

00:16:39,500 → 00:16:41,836

EMILY WADDINGTON: might prefer to even text sometimes —

00:16:41,837 → 00:16:44,209

EMILY WADDINGTON: which is, I think can be limiting in

00:16:44,210 → 00:16:45,679

EMILY WADDINGTON: terms of what we can get. But there's

00:16:45,680 → 00:16:47,359

EMILY WADDINGTON: something about having a conversation

00:16:47,360 → 00:16:49,519

EMILY WADDINGTON: with that young person about what is the

00:16:49,520 → 00:16:51,469

EMILY WADDINGTON: best way for us to communicate with you.

00:16:51,470 → 00:16:53,599

EMILY WADDINGTON: I really want to hear what's going on for

00:16:53,600 → 00:16:56,689

EMILY WADDINGTON: you, what feels easiest and

00:16:56,690 → 00:16:59,179

EMILY WADDINGTON: and most helpful and most meaningful to

00:16:59,180 → 00:17:00,889

EMILY WADDINGTON: each young person.

00:17:00,890 → 00:17:02,569

JULIAN FABIAN: Thanks, Emily. That's helpful.

00:17:02,570 → 00:17:04,159

JULIAN FABIAN: The other thing that popped into my head was

00:17:04,160 → 00:17:06,618

JULIAN FABIAN: something that Damien referenced helpfully

00:17:06,619 → 00:17:08,479

JULIAN FABIAN: around biases.

00:17:08,480 → 00:17:09,799

JULIAN FABIAN: And I think some people might say, "well,

00:17:09,800 → 00:17:12,078

JULIAN FABIAN: hang on a minute. I'm a qualified

00:17:12,079 → 00:17:13,999

JULIAN FABIAN: professional social worker.

00:17:14,000 → 00:17:17,239

JULIAN FABIAN: I'm aware of myself as an individual.

00:17:17,240 → 00:17:19,338

JULIAN FABIAN: I don't have any biases or they don't

00:17:19,339 → 00:17:22,399

JULIAN FABIAN: influence me." But I'm interested what

00:17:22,400 → 00:17:24,799

JULIAN FABIAN: the biases we might carry in terms of

00:17:24,800 → 00:17:27,108

JULIAN FABIAN: working with the voice of a child and how we

00:17:27,109 → 00:17:29,869

JULIAN FABIAN: might manage those or attend to those so

00:17:29,870 → 00:17:31,519

JULIAN FABIAN: they don't get in the way.

00:17:31,520 → 00:17:34,009

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think reflection is the key word, you

00:17:34,010 → 00:17:36,379

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: know. Just reflect on our practice,

00:17:36,380 → 00:17:38,719

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: reflect on our feelings, reflect on our

00:17:38,720 → 00:17:41,479

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assumptions. Use supervision, I think,

00:17:41,480 → 00:17:42,970

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to discuss any biases,

00:17:45,290 → 00:17:46,609

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: as we all have them.

00:17:46,610 → 00:17:48,979

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So I think it's about understanding the

00:17:48,980 → 00:17:51,049

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child's identity, the child's

00:17:51,050 → 00:17:54,379

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: background and factoring into

00:17:54,380 → 00:17:56,569

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: your reflections any biases you will

00:17:56,570 → 00:17:59,029

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: have regarding identity, cultural

00:17:59,030 → 00:18:01,609

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: background, sexuality, any of that.

00:18:01,610 → 00:18:03,559

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And using the supervision process to

00:18:03,560 → 00:18:05,359

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: tease all of that out and reflect on

00:18:05,360 → 00:18:06,079

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: that.

00:18:06,080 → 00:18:08,659

EMILY WADDINGTON: It's something that we actually need to

00:18:08,660 → 00:18:10,339

EMILY WADDINGTON: own, that we do have biases.

00:18:10,340 → 00:18:12,919

EMILY WADDINGTON: Because once we do that, we can engage

00:18:12,920 → 00:18:16,009

EMILY WADDINGTON: much more effectively and honestly in all

00:18:16,010 → 00:18:17,899

EMILY WADDINGTON: the things Damien is talking about.

00:18:17,900 → 00:18:20,689

EMILY WADDINGTON: So once we can say, "do you know what,

00:18:20,690 → 00:18:22,699

EMILY WADDINGTON: this is something that I sometimes trip

00:18:22,700 → 00:18:25,729

EMILY WADDINGTON: up on or a bias that I hold", we

00:18:25,730 → 00:18:27,889

EMILY WADDINGTON: can then take that to supervision and

00:18:27,890 → 00:18:30,919

EMILY WADDINGTON: talk about it in a place that feels safe

00:18:30,920 → 00:18:33,289

EMILY WADDINGTON: and much more constructive.

00:18:33,290 → 00:18:34,759

EMILY WADDINGTON: But yeah, I think for me, reflection has

00:18:34,760 → 00:18:37,909

EMILY WADDINGTON: got to be the most important place to be.

00:18:37,910 → 00:18:39,679

JULIAN FABIAN: Yeah, that's helpful. So there's something

00:18:39,680 → 00:18:43,039

JULIAN FABIAN: about being self-aware, and about working

00:18:43,040 → 00:18:45,649

JULIAN FABIAN: in an environment of high support and high

00:18:45,650 → 00:18:48,709

JULIAN FABIAN: challenge, and to make sure biases are

00:18:48,710 → 00:18:51,889

JULIAN FABIAN: brought to light and managed.

00:18:51,890 → 00:18:53,602

JULIAN FABIAN: So we've referenced, in passing, record

00:18:53,603 → 00:18:55,939

JULIAN FABIAN: keeping. But I wanted to spend a little time

00:18:55,940 → 00:18:58,699

JULIAN FABIAN: thinking about the records we keep, and

00:18:58,700 → 00:19:01,579

JULIAN FABIAN: particularly what the voice of a child might

00:19:01,580 → 00:19:04,759

JULIAN FABIAN: look like in good record keeping, but also

00:19:04,760 → 00:19:06,349

JULIAN FABIAN: why that's important.

00:19:06,350 → 00:19:08,449

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think record keeping is extremely

00:19:08,450 → 00:19:11,179

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: important. What springs to mind is

00:19:11,180 → 00:19:13,309

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: perhaps a child brought up in the care

00:19:13,310 → 00:19:15,589

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: system, or a looked after child, who

00:19:15,590 → 00:19:17,029

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: request their records.

00:19:17,030 → 00:19:19,009

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: What you've got to think as a child

00:19:19,010 → 00:19:20,869

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: care professional, as a social worker,

00:19:20,870 → 00:19:23,449

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: is what will these records tell this

00:19:23,450 → 00:19:25,249

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child? What are they going to look like

00:19:25,250 → 00:19:27,469

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: when the child requests these records

00:19:27,470 → 00:19:29,239

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and looks back and wants to know about

00:19:29,240 → 00:19:31,819

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: their life and their identity and the

00:19:31,820 → 00:19:33,979

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: really, really, really crucial and

00:19:33,980 → 00:19:36,439

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: important decisions that have impacted

00:19:36,440 → 00:19:37,440

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: on their life.

00:19:38,480 → 00:19:39,739

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think the records need to be

00:19:39,740 → 00:19:41,539

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: accurate. The language needs to be

00:19:41,540 → 00:19:43,939

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: thought about. They need to be quite

00:19:43,940 → 00:19:45,409

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: transparent towards the child.

00:19:45,410 → 00:19:47,569

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And I think that's why things like the

00:19:47,570 → 00:19:49,969

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: voice of the child needs to be threaded

00:19:49,970 → 00:19:51,559

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: throughout our records so that the

00:19:51,560 → 00:19:54,979

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child can see on a page

00:19:54,980 → 00:19:56,899

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: their life, you know. What they've

00:19:56,900 → 00:19:59,719

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: contributed to their life, how their

00:19:59,720 → 00:20:02,749

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: wishes and feelings were respected, how

00:20:02,750 → 00:20:05,479

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: decisions were made with them included

00:20:05,480 → 00:20:07,669

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: in the decision-making process.

00:20:07,670 → 00:20:09,469

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And the rationale is built into the

00:20:09,470 → 00:20:11,869

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: records that any decisions that were

00:20:11,870 → 00:20:13,609

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: made were made in the child's best

00:20:13,610 → 00:20:15,859

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: interests, and that is evident when

00:20:15,860 → 00:20:17,749

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: they're reading them retrospectively.

00:20:17,750 → 00:20:19,279

EMILY WADDINGTON: The other things that I would add in

00:20:19,280 → 00:20:21,949

EMILY WADDINGTON: terms of recording, and making sure we

00:20:21,950 → 00:20:23,469

EMILY WADDINGTON: are getting the voice of the child in

00:20:23,470 → 00:20:26,019

EMILY WADDINGTON: recording, is having prompts.

00:20:26,020 → 00:20:28,449

EMILY WADDINGTON: I find prompts on systems useful to talk

00:20:28,450 → 00:20:31,545

EMILY WADDINGTON: about — what did you observe —

00:20:31,546 → 00:20:33,969

EMILY WADDINGTON: as a little reminder that we're expanding

00:20:33,970 → 00:20:35,888

EMILY WADDINGTON: out beyond what has a child said.

00:20:35,889 → 00:20:37,839

EMILY WADDINGTON: What have we seen?

00:20:37,840 → 00:20:39,399

EMILY WADDINGTON: What have we observed? What do we think

00:20:39,400 → 00:20:41,619

EMILY WADDINGTON: that means? So I think having those

00:20:41,620 → 00:20:44,409

EMILY WADDINGTON: prompts feels really useful.

00:20:44,410 → 00:20:46,389

EMILY WADDINGTON: Again, we're talking about young people

00:20:46,390 → 00:20:49,209

EMILY WADDINGTON: accessing records, which is so important.

00:20:49,210 → 00:20:50,859

EMILY WADDINGTON: We hold so much information that is

00:20:50,860 → 00:20:53,829

EMILY WADDINGTON: really sensitive, intimate, personal

00:20:53,830 → 00:20:55,359

EMILY WADDINGTON: to that young person.

00:20:55,360 → 00:20:56,769

EMILY WADDINGTON: So we really need to be showing that

00:20:56,770 → 00:20:59,739

EMILY WADDINGTON: we've made every effort to that young

00:20:59,740 → 00:21:01,359

EMILY WADDINGTON: person to really understand what was

00:21:01,360 → 00:21:04,149

EMILY WADDINGTON: going on for them, and to really show how

00:21:04,150 → 00:21:05,889

EMILY WADDINGTON: hard we have tried to make things happen

00:21:05,890 → 00:21:08,379

EMILY WADDINGTON: in their best interests.

00:21:08,380 → 00:21:10,179

EMILY WADDINGTON: And again, just going back to the bit

00:21:10,180 → 00:21:12,669

EMILY WADDINGTON: about observations, there is something

00:21:12,670 → 00:21:14,499

EMILY WADDINGTON: for me about writing in a way that makes

00:21:14,500 → 00:21:16,689

EMILY WADDINGTON: sure we don't, again, place that burden

00:21:16,690 → 00:21:19,329

EMILY WADDINGTON: or responsibility on the young person to

00:21:19,330 → 00:21:21,069

EMILY WADDINGTON: tell us everything. Tell us about, you

00:21:21,070 → 00:21:22,539

EMILY WADDINGTON: know, these scary things that are

00:21:22,540 → 00:21:24,279

EMILY WADDINGTON: happening. And we need to be really

00:21:24,280 → 00:21:26,289

EMILY WADDINGTON: careful when we're wording that in our

00:21:26,290 → 00:21:28,299

EMILY WADDINGTON: recording. So it's not that just because

00:21:28,300 → 00:21:30,099

EMILY WADDINGTON: the child hasn't said something doesn't

00:21:30,100 → 00:21:32,979

EMILY WADDINGTON: necessarily mean that everything is fine.

00:21:34,150 → 00:21:36,609

EMILY WADDINGTON: Our openness to other forms of communication

00:21:36,610 → 00:21:39,129

EMILY WADDINGTON: and reflecting that in recording really

00:21:39,130 → 00:21:40,419

EMILY WADDINGTON: shows we're working with the young

00:21:40,420 → 00:21:42,999

EMILY WADDINGTON: person, and I think reduces

00:21:43,000 → 00:21:44,739

EMILY WADDINGTON: responsibility and pressure on them to

00:21:44,740 → 00:21:46,269

EMILY WADDINGTON: have been the ones who are keeping

00:21:46,270 → 00:21:48,069

EMILY WADDINGTON: themselves safe. When, actually, that's

00:21:48,070 → 00:21:50,499

EMILY WADDINGTON: the job of professionals and parents and

00:21:50,500 → 00:21:51,500

EMILY WADDINGTON: families.

00:21:52,079 → 00:21:54,055

JULIAN FABIAN: There is something important also by

00:21:55,300 → 00:21:57,219

JULIAN FABIAN: the sounds of it about capturing exactly

00:21:57,220 → 00:21:59,919

JULIAN FABIAN: what children say on their records, using

00:21:59,920 → 00:22:01,719

JULIAN FABIAN: their actual words.

00:22:01,720 → 00:22:04,209

JULIAN FABIAN: And then when we make the jump between what

00:22:04,210 → 00:22:06,909

JULIAN FABIAN: they say and what that might mean, and being

00:22:06,910 → 00:22:09,639

JULIAN FABIAN: aware of our biases in terms of how we

00:22:09,640 → 00:22:11,889

JULIAN FABIAN: interpret that and therefore what we do

00:22:11,890 → 00:22:14,109

JULIAN FABIAN: about that. The other thing I'm interested

00:22:14,110 → 00:22:16,869

JULIAN FABIAN: in is, going back to the issue of

00:22:16,870 → 00:22:19,822

JULIAN FABIAN: assessments, why the voice of the child is

00:22:20,860 → 00:22:22,959

JULIAN FABIAN: so important to assessments.

00:22:22,960 → 00:22:25,599

JULIAN FABIAN: Or, another way, what's the impact of having

00:22:25,600 → 00:22:28,329

JULIAN FABIAN: the child's voice central to your

00:22:28,330 → 00:22:29,589

JULIAN FABIAN: assessment?

00:22:29,590 → 00:22:30,969

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think it's really, really important

00:22:30,970 → 00:22:32,379

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: in terms of... Depending what the

00:22:32,380 → 00:22:33,849

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment or the focus of the

00:22:33,850 → 00:22:36,189

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment is. Speaking to the child

00:22:36,190 → 00:22:39,009

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: alone, I think is a crucial element to

00:22:39,010 → 00:22:41,649

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: any assessment so that you can kind of

00:22:41,650 → 00:22:43,599

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: ascertain their wishes and feelings

00:22:43,600 → 00:22:45,279

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: about a particular subject.

00:22:45,280 → 00:22:47,409

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Very much a child will get to the nib

00:22:47,410 → 00:22:49,569

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: of a problem and give you their interpretation

00:22:49,570 → 00:22:51,909

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: of it, you know. I suppose what's key,

00:22:51,910 → 00:22:53,259

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: what is a key issue, it's really

00:22:53,260 → 00:22:55,299

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: important what questions you ask the

00:22:55,300 → 00:22:56,649

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child as well.

00:22:56,650 → 00:22:58,689

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So what are you asking them, and what

00:22:58,690 → 00:23:00,759

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: are you asking of them, and what's your

00:23:00,760 → 00:23:02,326

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: observation of their response can

00:23:03,460 → 00:23:06,429

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: inform your assessment in great detail

00:23:06,430 → 00:23:08,379

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and ultimately lead to a clearer

00:23:08,380 → 00:23:09,429

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outcome.

00:23:09,430 → 00:23:11,139

JULIAN FABIAN: So there's something about perhaps the

00:23:11,140 → 00:23:13,689

JULIAN FABIAN: language you use when we ask questions of

00:23:13,690 → 00:23:16,569

JULIAN FABIAN: children, so it's clear and understandable

00:23:16,570 → 00:23:17,889

JULIAN FABIAN: and accessible.

00:23:17,890 → 00:23:20,169

JULIAN FABIAN: But also perhaps there's something about

00:23:20,170 → 00:23:22,779

JULIAN FABIAN: ensuring we're not leading them somewhere

00:23:22,780 → 00:23:24,219

JULIAN FABIAN: they may not want to go.

00:23:24,220 → 00:23:27,069

JULIAN FABIAN: So, not providing them with questions that

00:23:27,070 → 00:23:29,919

JULIAN FABIAN: almost assume the outcome, assume the

00:23:29,920 → 00:23:32,139

JULIAN FABIAN: answer. So we're being as clear and

00:23:32,140 → 00:23:35,559

JULIAN FABIAN: transparent and open to their voice

00:23:35,560 → 00:23:37,278

JULIAN FABIAN: as possible.

00:23:37,279 → 00:23:38,949

EMILY WADDINGTON: I do sometimes think where it feels age

00:23:38,950 → 00:23:40,869

EMILY WADDINGTON: appropriate, there's something about

00:23:40,870 → 00:23:42,879

EMILY WADDINGTON: context as well.

00:23:42,880 → 00:23:44,469

EMILY WADDINGTON: I've worked with young people who have

00:23:44,470 → 00:23:46,149

EMILY WADDINGTON: said, you know, "last time I said

00:23:46,150 → 00:23:47,889

EMILY WADDINGTON: something to a social worker, they took

00:23:47,890 → 00:23:50,079

EMILY WADDINGTON: it out of context and they wrote it down,

00:23:50,080 → 00:23:51,789

EMILY WADDINGTON: and all these things happened that

00:23:51,790 → 00:23:53,829

EMILY WADDINGTON: suddenly felt out of control, or I wasn't

00:23:53,830 → 00:23:56,409

EMILY WADDINGTON: being heard or listened to." So I do

00:23:56,410 → 00:23:58,119

EMILY WADDINGTON: think where it's age appropriate.

00:23:58,120 → 00:24:00,459

EMILY WADDINGTON: We can talk to young people about, you

00:24:00,460 → 00:24:02,409

EMILY WADDINGTON: know, the context and maybe sometimes why

00:24:02,410 → 00:24:04,029

EMILY WADDINGTON: we're asking those questions, what we're

00:24:04,030 → 00:24:06,759

EMILY WADDINGTON: looking to learn and how it might inform

00:24:06,760 → 00:24:09,639

EMILY WADDINGTON: how we try to help or support the family.

00:24:09,640 → 00:24:11,649

EMILY WADDINGTON: And then, in terms of the importance of a

00:24:11,650 → 00:24:14,559

EMILY WADDINGTON: child's voice in an assessment, I don't

00:24:14,560 → 00:24:16,239

EMILY WADDINGTON: think we can get an assessment right

00:24:16,240 → 00:24:18,399

EMILY WADDINGTON: without the child's voice.

00:24:18,400 → 00:24:19,869

EMILY WADDINGTON: Everything that Damien said about a child

00:24:19,870 → 00:24:21,939

EMILY WADDINGTON: being an expert in their own world, we

00:24:21,940 → 00:24:24,369

EMILY WADDINGTON: can't understand their experience, their

00:24:24,370 → 00:24:27,039

EMILY WADDINGTON: wants, their wishes without the child's

00:24:27,040 → 00:24:29,049

EMILY WADDINGTON: voice. And then if we get the child's

00:24:29,050 → 00:24:31,749

EMILY WADDINGTON: voice and we listen to it, I think we

00:24:31,750 → 00:24:34,329

EMILY WADDINGTON: really increase the likelihood that we

00:24:34,330 → 00:24:36,009

EMILY WADDINGTON: can create positive change for a young

00:24:36,010 → 00:24:37,569

EMILY WADDINGTON: person and their family.

00:24:37,570 → 00:24:40,389

EMILY WADDINGTON: You know, are we offering intervention

00:24:40,390 → 00:24:42,549

EMILY WADDINGTON: that meets the child's or young person's

00:24:42,550 → 00:24:45,399

EMILY WADDINGTON: needs? Is it what they want to happen?

00:24:45,400 → 00:24:48,219

EMILY WADDINGTON: And also does it offer validity?

00:24:48,220 → 00:24:49,689

EMILY WADDINGTON: Sometimes there might be disagreement

00:24:49,690 → 00:24:52,089

EMILY WADDINGTON: about what a young person needs or about

00:24:52,090 → 00:24:54,579

EMILY WADDINGTON: what intervention would be useful.

00:24:54,580 → 00:24:56,379

EMILY WADDINGTON: But actually, if we can say, you know,

00:24:56,380 → 00:24:58,209

EMILY WADDINGTON: this is what we think the young person

00:24:58,210 → 00:25:00,519

EMILY WADDINGTON: wants based on what we've seen, what

00:25:00,520 → 00:25:03,129

EMILY WADDINGTON: we've heard, what we've observed, I think

00:25:03,130 → 00:25:04,516

EMILY WADDINGTON: it really makes the whole assessment more robust

00:25:06,010 → 00:25:08,109

EMILY WADDINGTON: when we've got and the person's voice

00:25:08,110 → 00:25:10,179

EMILY WADDINGTON: running all the way through it.

00:25:10,180 → 00:25:11,589

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Just to jump on that a little bit,

00:25:11,590 → 00:25:14,919

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Emily, is the demonstrating

00:25:14,920 → 00:25:17,589

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to the child, kind of, you said, we

00:25:17,590 → 00:25:19,629

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: did. "You said this, this is the

00:25:19,630 → 00:25:21,369

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outcome of our assessment, you know,

00:25:21,370 → 00:25:23,319

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: which was directly influenced by you."

00:25:23,320 → 00:25:26,199

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So I suppose promoting that trustful

00:25:26,200 → 00:25:28,239

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: relationship, you know. This was your

00:25:28,240 → 00:25:29,979

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: voice. This was the impact of your

00:25:29,980 → 00:25:31,959

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: voice. And this is the outcome of my

00:25:31,960 → 00:25:34,239

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment. And it's quite evident that

00:25:34,240 → 00:25:36,459

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you're a very, very important person in

00:25:36,460 → 00:25:39,129

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: this assessment process, and you have

00:25:39,130 → 00:25:40,080

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: influenced it.

00:25:40,081 → 00:25:41,081

EMILY WADDINGTON: Absolutely.

00:25:41,650 → 00:25:43,719

EMILY WADDINGTON: The assessment is the first part of the

00:25:43,720 → 00:25:45,369

EMILY WADDINGTON: relationship with the young person.

00:25:45,370 → 00:25:47,679

EMILY WADDINGTON: And if we can build trust and show their

00:25:47,680 → 00:25:50,229

EMILY WADDINGTON: importance there, that really sets the

00:25:50,230 → 00:25:51,249

EMILY WADDINGTON: scene.

00:25:51,250 → 00:25:53,589

JULIAN FABIAN: And practically, thinking about how we close

00:25:53,590 → 00:25:57,039

JULIAN FABIAN: the loop, that can include: we ask questions

00:25:57,040 → 00:25:59,419

JULIAN FABIAN: of them or we have a discussion; they give

00:25:59,420 → 00:26:01,989

JULIAN FABIAN: some feedback; and then there's how we share

00:26:01,990 → 00:26:05,199

JULIAN FABIAN: our information with them to check is fair

00:26:05,200 → 00:26:06,909

JULIAN FABIAN: and accurate, to check we haven't been

00:26:06,910 → 00:26:09,549

JULIAN FABIAN: influenced by our biases, to engage and

00:26:09,550 → 00:26:11,779

JULIAN FABIAN: empower the young person that they feel part

00:26:11,780 → 00:26:14,109

JULIAN FABIAN: of the process and that it's representative.

00:26:14,110 → 00:26:16,599

JULIAN FABIAN: So we close the loop in terms of capturing

00:26:16,600 → 00:26:19,269

JULIAN FABIAN: the voice of the child accurately.

00:26:19,270 → 00:26:20,689

JULIAN FABIAN: So finally, what I would like to ask the

00:26:20,690 → 00:26:24,129

JULIAN FABIAN: both of you is: what's the one key takeaway

00:26:24,130 → 00:26:26,859

JULIAN FABIAN: you'd want to leave listeners with in terms

00:26:26,860 → 00:26:28,659

JULIAN FABIAN: of the voice of the child in social work

00:26:28,660 → 00:26:29,769

JULIAN FABIAN: practice?

00:26:29,770 → 00:26:31,719

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Mine would be not to get caught up on

00:26:31,720 → 00:26:33,759

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: adult issues. You know, we do have

00:26:33,760 → 00:26:35,769

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: biases. We do have relationships with

00:26:35,770 → 00:26:38,529

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: adults. We have all of these various

00:26:38,530 → 00:26:40,809

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: pressures in work and families.

00:26:40,810 → 00:26:43,179

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And I think my one key takeaway would

00:26:43,180 → 00:26:44,469

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: be go straight to the heart of the

00:26:44,470 → 00:26:46,219

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: matter and go straight to the child,

00:26:46,220 → 00:26:47,949

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and there is a font of knowledge

00:26:47,950 → 00:26:50,049

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: waiting right there in your level of

00:26:50,050 → 00:26:52,509

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication with the child. As we've

00:26:52,510 → 00:26:55,509

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: discussed earlier, that child might

00:26:55,510 → 00:26:58,249

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: be non-speaking, there could be

00:26:58,250 → 00:27:01,659

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: learning disability, but there's ways

00:27:01,660 → 00:27:03,819

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: around that and there's ways to capture

00:27:03,820 → 00:27:05,529

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the child's wishes and feelings.

00:27:05,530 → 00:27:08,259

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So go straight to the child I would say

00:27:08,260 → 00:27:10,239

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: would be my one take away.

00:27:10,240 → 00:27:12,490

EMILY WADDINGTON: Oh, I just so want to squeeze two in.

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JULIAN FABIAN: I can allow you two.

00:27:15,090 → 00:27:17,409

EMILY WADDINGTON: Very generous, thank you.

00:27:17,410 → 00:27:20,439

EMILY WADDINGTON: So my first one is to remember that the

00:27:20,440 → 00:27:22,599

EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child is more than just

00:27:22,600 → 00:27:23,889

EMILY WADDINGTON: speaking.

00:27:23,890 → 00:27:25,929

EMILY WADDINGTON: Please look. Please observe.

00:27:25,930 → 00:27:28,359

EMILY WADDINGTON: Write down what you see, think about what

00:27:28,360 → 00:27:31,569

EMILY WADDINGTON: it might mean, and consider that together

00:27:31,570 → 00:27:33,279

EMILY WADDINGTON: with something speaking, if that's

00:27:33,280 → 00:27:34,659

EMILY WADDINGTON: available to you.

00:27:34,660 → 00:27:36,009

EMILY WADDINGTON: And then my second point is just to

00:27:36,010 → 00:27:38,709

EMILY WADDINGTON: borrow from Damien, which is that the

00:27:38,710 → 00:27:41,559

EMILY WADDINGTON: child is the expert in their own world.

00:27:41,560 → 00:27:43,029

EMILY WADDINGTON: I think if you use that as a guiding

00:27:43,030 → 00:27:44,769

EMILY WADDINGTON: principle, you are going to work really

00:27:44,770 → 00:27:46,809

EMILY WADDINGTON: hard to capture the voice of the child in

00:27:46,810 → 00:27:48,759

EMILY WADDINGTON: a really meaningful way for the rest of

00:27:48,760 → 00:27:50,109

EMILY WADDINGTON: your work as well.

00:27:50,110 → 00:27:51,789

JULIAN FABIAN: Great. Thanks Damien and Emily.

00:27:51,790 → 00:27:53,559

JULIAN FABIAN: It's been really good to have you with me

00:27:53,560 → 00:27:56,799

JULIAN FABIAN: today to explore the key issue of voice

00:27:56,800 → 00:27:59,139

JULIAN FABIAN: of the child in social work practice.

00:27:59,140 → 00:28:01,539

JULIAN FABIAN: I think it will be really helpful to our

00:28:01,540 → 00:28:03,549

JULIAN FABIAN: audience. So thanks for being with us.

00:28:03,550 → 00:28:04,659

DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Thank you very much, Julian.

00:28:04,660 → 00:28:06,024

EMILY WADDINGTON: Thanks, Julian. Thanks, Damien.

00:28:10,360 → 00:28:14,019

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast.

00:28:14,020 → 00:28:16,929

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was

00:28:16,930 → 00:28:19,539

OUTRO: up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child

00:28:19,540 → 00:28:20,540

OUTRO: protection is ever changing.

00:28:21,640 → 00:28:23,739

OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current

00:28:23,740 → 00:28:26,439

OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

00:28:26,440 → 00:28:29,439

OUTRO: information or resources, please visit

00:28:29,440 → 00:28:31,737

OUTRO: our website for professionals at

00:28:31,738 → 00:28:32,738

OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.

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