1 00:00:03,070 --> 00:00:06,039 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning podcast, where 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,979 INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection 3 00:00:08,980 --> 00:00:12,219 INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation. 4 00:00:12,220 --> 00:00:15,339 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and 5 00:00:15,340 --> 00:00:18,459 INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together 6 00:00:18,460 --> 00:00:21,250 INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe. 7 00:00:24,829 --> 00:00:27,469 JULIAN FABIAN: A very warm welcome to the NSPCC Learning 8 00:00:27,470 --> 00:00:28,819 JULIAN FABIAN: podcast. 9 00:00:28,820 --> 00:00:31,189 JULIAN FABIAN: I'm Julian Fabian, consultant social worker 10 00:00:31,190 --> 00:00:34,579 JULIAN FABIAN: in the NSPCC's Quality and Practice team, 11 00:00:34,580 --> 00:00:37,039 JULIAN FABIAN: and for this episode I'm joined by two 12 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,859 JULIAN FABIAN: colleagues, Emily and Damian, to explore the 13 00:00:39,860 --> 00:00:42,619 JULIAN FABIAN: subject of voice of the child in social work 14 00:00:42,620 --> 00:00:43,879 JULIAN FABIAN: practice. 15 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,339 JULIAN FABIAN: So Emily and Damian, why don't you introduce 16 00:00:46,340 --> 00:00:48,619 JULIAN FABIAN: yourselves and tell the listeners a little 17 00:00:48,620 --> 00:00:50,839 JULIAN FABIAN: bit about yourselves, and then we'll dive 18 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:52,609 JULIAN FABIAN: into today's subject. 19 00:00:52,610 --> 00:00:54,919 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Hi, my name's Damien Fitzpatrick and 20 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,659 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I'm a consultant social worker based in 21 00:00:56,660 --> 00:00:58,369 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the Quality and Practice team. 22 00:00:58,370 --> 00:01:00,919 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I've worked for the NSPCC now for about 23 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,159 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: ten years. Before that I was a local 24 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,079 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: authority social worker. 25 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:07,669 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Our main role in the Quality and Practice 26 00:01:07,670 --> 00:01:10,789 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: team is practice development and 27 00:01:10,790 --> 00:01:12,289 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: quality assurance. 28 00:01:12,290 --> 00:01:14,539 EMILY WADDINGTON: Hi, my name's Emily Waddington and I 29 00:01:14,540 --> 00:01:16,879 EMILY WADDINGTON: currently work in Childline. 30 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:18,769 EMILY WADDINGTON: I've been a qualified social worker since 31 00:01:18,770 --> 00:01:21,049 EMILY WADDINGTON: 2019, and I've worked in the local 32 00:01:21,050 --> 00:01:23,869 EMILY WADDINGTON: authority and in the charity sector. 33 00:01:23,870 --> 00:01:25,789 EMILY WADDINGTON: I've always been interested in the voice 34 00:01:25,790 --> 00:01:28,009 EMILY WADDINGTON: of the child, and previously I've had 35 00:01:28,010 --> 00:01:29,989 EMILY WADDINGTON: some work that I've done on the voice of 36 00:01:29,990 --> 00:01:32,089 EMILY WADDINGTON: the infant be presented at the World 37 00:01:32,090 --> 00:01:34,219 EMILY WADDINGTON: Infant Mental Health Conference. 38 00:01:34,220 --> 00:01:36,229 JULIAN FABIAN: Thanks for that. Lovely to have you with me 39 00:01:36,230 --> 00:01:38,689 JULIAN FABIAN: today. So I thought it'd be really helpful 40 00:01:38,690 --> 00:01:41,599 JULIAN FABIAN: to start off our discussion by building a 41 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,599 JULIAN FABIAN: strong and clear foundation, and 42 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,029 JULIAN FABIAN: really be interested in what you think we 43 00:01:47,030 --> 00:01:49,729 JULIAN FABIAN: mean by the voice of the child. 44 00:01:49,730 --> 00:01:51,559 EMILY WADDINGTON: So I think, for me, the voice of the 45 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,629 EMILY WADDINGTON: child is about thinking about the young 46 00:01:53,630 --> 00:01:56,839 EMILY WADDINGTON: person's experiences, their worries and 47 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:57,840 EMILY WADDINGTON: their wants. 48 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,439 EMILY WADDINGTON: And there's a whole host of different 49 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,109 EMILY WADDINGTON: ways we can hear and understand the young 50 00:02:03,110 --> 00:02:05,839 EMILY WADDINGTON: person's voice. And really, what we mean 51 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,464 EMILY WADDINGTON: about the young person's voice and why it 52 00:02:08,465 --> 00:02:11,059 EMILY WADDINGTON: becomes so useful is because once we've 53 00:02:11,060 --> 00:02:13,249 EMILY WADDINGTON: got that voice of the young person, it 54 00:02:13,250 --> 00:02:15,619 EMILY WADDINGTON: means the professionals can start acting 55 00:02:15,620 --> 00:02:17,989 EMILY WADDINGTON: in the child's best interest. 56 00:02:17,990 --> 00:02:19,579 JULIAN FABIAN: That's a good place to start. 57 00:02:19,580 --> 00:02:21,379 JULIAN FABIAN: One of the things I'm interested in is why 58 00:02:21,380 --> 00:02:24,199 JULIAN FABIAN: we believe the voice of the child is so 59 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,019 JULIAN FABIAN: important to social work practice. 60 00:02:27,020 --> 00:02:30,079 EMILY WADDINGTON: Children and family social work exists 61 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,539 EMILY WADDINGTON: to safeguard and promote the welfare of 62 00:02:32,540 --> 00:02:35,689 EMILY WADDINGTON: young people and children, and we simply 63 00:02:35,690 --> 00:02:38,719 EMILY WADDINGTON: can't do that without an understanding 64 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,219 EMILY WADDINGTON: of the voice of the child. 65 00:02:40,220 --> 00:02:42,169 EMILY WADDINGTON: So we need that understanding of their 66 00:02:42,170 --> 00:02:44,089 EMILY WADDINGTON: experiences, their worries and their 67 00:02:44,090 --> 00:02:46,969 EMILY WADDINGTON: wants in order for us to do our job, in 68 00:02:46,970 --> 00:02:49,219 EMILY WADDINGTON: order to safeguard them and to promote 69 00:02:49,220 --> 00:02:50,809 EMILY WADDINGTON: their welfare. 70 00:02:50,810 --> 00:02:53,119 EMILY WADDINGTON: If we try to do that without hearing the 71 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,819 EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child, we risk practising in 72 00:02:55,820 --> 00:02:57,739 EMILY WADDINGTON: a way that's really oppressive. 73 00:02:57,740 --> 00:02:59,659 EMILY WADDINGTON: It's important that young people are able 74 00:02:59,660 --> 00:03:01,519 EMILY WADDINGTON: to take part in the decisions that we're 75 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:03,769 EMILY WADDINGTON: making about them and that are in their 76 00:03:03,770 --> 00:03:04,789 EMILY WADDINGTON: interest. 77 00:03:04,790 --> 00:03:07,489 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Yeah, I think the voice of the child is 78 00:03:07,490 --> 00:03:10,039 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: central really to what we do in our 79 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:11,509 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: daily practice and working with 80 00:03:11,510 --> 00:03:14,149 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: children. We want to promote best 81 00:03:14,150 --> 00:03:16,459 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outcomes for children, and the best way 82 00:03:16,460 --> 00:03:19,549 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to do that is to hear what the children 83 00:03:19,550 --> 00:03:22,669 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: want and hear how to 84 00:03:22,670 --> 00:03:24,739 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: best engage that child in any 85 00:03:24,740 --> 00:03:27,769 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: intervention, promote engagement and 86 00:03:27,770 --> 00:03:28,770 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: work towards... 87 00:03:29,690 --> 00:03:31,849 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Work jointly, I suppose, with the child 88 00:03:31,850 --> 00:03:34,279 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and the family in collaborating towards 89 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,679 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: good outcomes for the child. 90 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:37,969 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So it's all about collaboration, 91 00:03:37,970 --> 00:03:39,769 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: engagement and the child's view and 92 00:03:39,770 --> 00:03:41,719 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: wishes and feelings, I think. 93 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,249 EMILY WADDINGTON: Damien, just to jump in, that's such a 94 00:03:43,250 --> 00:03:44,809 EMILY WADDINGTON: good point, isn't it? We don't want to 95 00:03:44,810 --> 00:03:46,849 EMILY WADDINGTON: 'do' to families or to young people. 96 00:03:46,850 --> 00:03:49,219 EMILY WADDINGTON: We absolutely want to work together. 97 00:03:49,220 --> 00:03:50,509 EMILY WADDINGTON: And yeah, we can't do that without the 98 00:03:50,510 --> 00:03:51,619 EMILY WADDINGTON: child's voice. 99 00:03:51,620 --> 00:03:53,569 JULIAN FABIAN: Absolutely, yeah. So there's something about 100 00:03:53,570 --> 00:03:55,789 JULIAN FABIAN: engaging children, collaborating with 101 00:03:55,790 --> 00:03:59,059 JULIAN FABIAN: children, trying to move away from anything 102 00:03:59,060 --> 00:04:01,129 JULIAN FABIAN: that would become oppressive or be 103 00:04:01,130 --> 00:04:04,009 JULIAN FABIAN: oppressive. It makes me wonder about what 104 00:04:04,010 --> 00:04:06,439 JULIAN FABIAN: barriers there might be to capturing the 105 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,629 JULIAN FABIAN: voice of a child, or what things might get 106 00:04:08,630 --> 00:04:11,689 JULIAN FABIAN: in the way of that in social 107 00:04:11,690 --> 00:04:14,359 JULIAN FABIAN: work practice, and how we might address 108 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,189 JULIAN FABIAN: those or overcome those. 109 00:04:16,190 --> 00:04:17,902 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Quite a few barriers spring to mind, 110 00:04:17,903 --> 00:04:20,749 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you know. You can have, almost like 111 00:04:20,750 --> 00:04:22,489 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: disguised compliance within families — 112 00:04:23,540 --> 00:04:25,549 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: not even disguised compliance, but not 113 00:04:25,550 --> 00:04:27,889 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: consenting for a worker to actually 114 00:04:27,890 --> 00:04:30,589 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: speak to a child, to speak to a child 115 00:04:30,590 --> 00:04:33,079 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: alone, whether there's a safeguarding 116 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,749 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: issue or a child protection issue. 117 00:04:35,750 --> 00:04:37,639 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So that could be one barrier: 118 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:38,982 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: non-compliance and non-consent. 119 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:43,279 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Other barriers could be the type of 120 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:45,529 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication. There could be a 121 00:04:45,530 --> 00:04:47,779 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: learning disability of the child. 122 00:04:47,780 --> 00:04:50,449 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: It could be a non-speaking child. 123 00:04:50,450 --> 00:04:52,639 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: It could be a child that communicates 124 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:53,999 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: through alternative means. 125 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,259 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Age — age appropriateness, 126 00:04:57,260 --> 00:04:58,718 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: how to communicate with the child. 127 00:04:58,719 --> 00:05:01,669 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I suppose it's important to have a 128 00:05:01,670 --> 00:05:03,829 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: varied degree of skill levels in how to 129 00:05:03,830 --> 00:05:05,899 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communicate in an age appropriate way 130 00:05:05,900 --> 00:05:07,669 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: with a child. Yeah. So quite a few 131 00:05:07,670 --> 00:05:09,499 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: barriers can spring up in the day-to-day 132 00:05:09,500 --> 00:05:10,768 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: practice of a social worker really, I 133 00:05:12,170 --> 00:05:13,039 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: would say. 134 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:14,509 EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah, Damien, I think you make a really 135 00:05:14,510 --> 00:05:16,729 EMILY WADDINGTON: good point about, you know, for example, 136 00:05:16,730 --> 00:05:18,679 EMILY WADDINGTON: a child who's not verbal or wants to 137 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,669 EMILY WADDINGTON: communicate in different ways. 138 00:05:20,670 --> 00:05:22,639 EMILY WADDINGTON: Because sometimes I think one of the 139 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:24,165 EMILY WADDINGTON: barriers to capturing the child's voice 140 00:05:24,166 --> 00:05:27,759 EMILY WADDINGTON: is that social workers can be overreliant 141 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,639 EMILY WADDINGTON: on the verbal voice only. So social 142 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:32,619 EMILY WADDINGTON: workers might not be looking at 143 00:05:32,620 --> 00:05:35,889 EMILY WADDINGTON: behaviours, body language, facial 144 00:05:35,890 --> 00:05:37,299 EMILY WADDINGTON: expressions. 145 00:05:37,300 --> 00:05:39,189 EMILY WADDINGTON: There's something about being open to the 146 00:05:39,190 --> 00:05:41,409 EMILY WADDINGTON: different ways we can get the child's 147 00:05:41,410 --> 00:05:42,410 EMILY WADDINGTON: voice. 148 00:05:43,420 --> 00:05:44,859 EMILY WADDINGTON: Some of the other things in terms of 149 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:47,409 EMILY WADDINGTON: barriers, one that's probably very 150 00:05:47,410 --> 00:05:49,749 EMILY WADDINGTON: familiar to lots of social workers, is 151 00:05:49,750 --> 00:05:51,219 EMILY WADDINGTON: feeling like you might not have enough 152 00:05:51,220 --> 00:05:52,959 EMILY WADDINGTON: time to build the kind of relationship 153 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,389 EMILY WADDINGTON: you want to build with the young person. 154 00:05:55,390 --> 00:05:57,609 EMILY WADDINGTON: If we can build meaningful relationships 155 00:05:57,610 --> 00:05:59,169 EMILY WADDINGTON: with young people, I think it's going to 156 00:05:59,170 --> 00:06:01,209 EMILY WADDINGTON: be a lot easier for us to get and hear 157 00:06:01,210 --> 00:06:03,069 EMILY WADDINGTON: the voice of the young person. 158 00:06:03,070 --> 00:06:05,439 EMILY WADDINGTON: And another barrier sometimes is that, on 159 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,419 EMILY WADDINGTON: a human level, I think sometimes 160 00:06:07,420 --> 00:06:09,459 EMILY WADDINGTON: professionals can struggle to understand 161 00:06:09,460 --> 00:06:11,519 EMILY WADDINGTON: that abuse is going on. 162 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,599 EMILY WADDINGTON: It's a difficult and unpleasant thing to 163 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,759 EMILY WADDINGTON: think about, so professionals have to 164 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,789 EMILY WADDINGTON: work really hard to make sure we're open 165 00:06:18,790 --> 00:06:20,649 EMILY WADDINGTON: to hearing what the child has got to say, 166 00:06:20,650 --> 00:06:22,929 EMILY WADDINGTON: to trusting it and really placing value 167 00:06:22,930 --> 00:06:24,639 EMILY WADDINGTON: in it, as well. 168 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,259 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Absolutely, Emily. Just to jump in 169 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:27,699 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: there, you make an excellent point 170 00:06:27,700 --> 00:06:29,739 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: about the time, you know, and I think 171 00:06:29,740 --> 00:06:31,479 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the relationship building, building 172 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,939 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: that rapport. And even if you do have 173 00:06:33,940 --> 00:06:35,859 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: time, I think in particularly complex 174 00:06:35,860 --> 00:06:38,619 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: cases, whether it's sexual abuse cases, 175 00:06:38,620 --> 00:06:41,169 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: it could take a lot of relationship 176 00:06:41,170 --> 00:06:44,559 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: building and trust building for a child 177 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,619 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to feel safe to open up 178 00:06:47,620 --> 00:06:49,520 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and to really hear that child's voice. 179 00:06:50,590 --> 00:06:52,719 JULIAN FABIAN: Okay, so a range of things that might get in 180 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,719 JULIAN FABIAN: the way of us hearing the voice of the 181 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,689 JULIAN FABIAN: child, whether it's a disability or some 182 00:06:58,690 --> 00:07:01,719 JULIAN FABIAN: medical barrier, whether it's time 183 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,719 JULIAN FABIAN: constraints, whether it's parents or 184 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,839 JULIAN FABIAN: carers having a worry in terms of allowing 185 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:10,269 JULIAN FABIAN: access to the child, whether it's a child 186 00:07:10,270 --> 00:07:11,949 JULIAN FABIAN: having a worry. So a range of things that 187 00:07:11,950 --> 00:07:14,439 JULIAN FABIAN: maybe need a range of solutions and we can 188 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:15,759 JULIAN FABIAN: come on to talk about those in a minute. 189 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,399 JULIAN FABIAN: One of the things I noticed you talked about 190 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,759 JULIAN FABIAN: was about children speaking, or 191 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,459 JULIAN FABIAN: being pre-speaking or non-speaking. 192 00:07:24,460 --> 00:07:26,919 JULIAN FABIAN: I think the previous language we used was 193 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,769 JULIAN FABIAN: pre-verbal, verbal and non-verbal. 194 00:07:29,770 --> 00:07:32,379 JULIAN FABIAN: So I'm interested if you could talk a little 195 00:07:32,380 --> 00:07:35,349 JULIAN FABIAN: bit about the the rationale for the change 196 00:07:35,350 --> 00:07:37,339 JULIAN FABIAN: in language and why that might be helpful. 197 00:07:37,340 --> 00:07:39,879 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: The language has quite correctly 198 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,489 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: changed because a lot of children who 199 00:07:42,490 --> 00:07:45,099 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: are who would have been considered 200 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:47,409 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: non-verbal now can communicate and 201 00:07:47,410 --> 00:07:49,029 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: actually verbalise their feelings 202 00:07:49,030 --> 00:07:51,099 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: through other means, really, so they 203 00:07:51,100 --> 00:07:52,749 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: can speak. 204 00:07:52,750 --> 00:07:55,119 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: For instance, I suppose a good example 205 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,119 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: of this would be, augmentative 206 00:07:58,120 --> 00:07:59,829 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication, where some disabled 207 00:07:59,830 --> 00:08:02,649 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: children, for instance, would use high 208 00:08:02,650 --> 00:08:06,159 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: tech devices to communicate. 209 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:07,525 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: There's also things like communication books, 210 00:08:08,590 --> 00:08:11,559 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: simple communication, right down 211 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,629 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to your kind of your simple makaton, 212 00:08:13,630 --> 00:08:15,399 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: stuff like that. So I think we've made 213 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,139 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: a lot of advances. 214 00:08:17,140 --> 00:08:18,909 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So we've moved on and quite rightly, 215 00:08:18,910 --> 00:08:20,859 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the terminology has moved on along with 216 00:08:20,860 --> 00:08:21,729 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: that. 217 00:08:21,730 --> 00:08:23,529 JULIAN FABIAN: So we want to move away from language that 218 00:08:23,530 --> 00:08:26,409 JULIAN FABIAN: might potentially be stigmatising or exclude 219 00:08:26,410 --> 00:08:27,339 JULIAN FABIAN: children. 220 00:08:27,340 --> 00:08:28,779 EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah. And I think that helps 221 00:08:28,780 --> 00:08:30,489 EMILY WADDINGTON: professionals to be a bit more open as 222 00:08:30,490 --> 00:08:31,989 EMILY WADDINGTON: well, doesn't it? Because we're not just 223 00:08:31,990 --> 00:08:34,749 EMILY WADDINGTON: thinking about the verbal communication. 224 00:08:34,750 --> 00:08:37,119 EMILY WADDINGTON: When we change the language, as 225 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:38,889 EMILY WADDINGTON: professionals you become more open to 226 00:08:38,890 --> 00:08:41,979 EMILY WADDINGTON: seeing many other forms of communication, 227 00:08:41,980 --> 00:08:43,959 EMILY WADDINGTON: which is totally necessary to help us 228 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,869 EMILY WADDINGTON: gather as much information from as many 229 00:08:46,870 --> 00:08:48,909 EMILY WADDINGTON: different means as possible about, you 230 00:08:48,910 --> 00:08:51,009 EMILY WADDINGTON: know, the voice of the young person, to 231 00:08:51,010 --> 00:08:52,689 EMILY WADDINGTON: really help us understand. 232 00:08:52,690 --> 00:08:54,579 JULIAN FABIAN: It's thinking that if we get our language 233 00:08:54,580 --> 00:08:56,469 JULIAN FABIAN: right, we get our thinking right. 234 00:08:56,470 --> 00:08:58,509 JULIAN FABIAN: If we get our thinking right, that affects 235 00:08:58,510 --> 00:09:01,689 JULIAN FABIAN: our practice in terms of improving outcomes 236 00:09:01,690 --> 00:09:03,039 JULIAN FABIAN: for children. 237 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:04,779 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And I suppose that adds to the point 238 00:09:04,780 --> 00:09:06,489 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: where communication is not just 239 00:09:06,490 --> 00:09:07,928 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: language and speaking, you know. 240 00:09:07,929 --> 00:09:09,549 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: It's behaviour. 241 00:09:09,550 --> 00:09:11,319 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Just what's sprung to my mind, it's why 242 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,539 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: observations of behaviour are perhaps 243 00:09:13,540 --> 00:09:15,849 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: key and so important in communication. 244 00:09:15,850 --> 00:09:19,299 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Just observing the interactions, 245 00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:21,279 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the behaviour of the child, how they 246 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,349 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: feel, how they interact with perhaps an 247 00:09:23,350 --> 00:09:25,749 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: adult, the adults around them, how they 248 00:09:25,750 --> 00:09:27,669 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: interact in different environments, how 249 00:09:27,670 --> 00:09:30,759 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: they interact in a school setting or 250 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,220 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: a home setting, or while 251 00:09:34,090 --> 00:09:36,429 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: in dad's care as opposed to while in 252 00:09:36,430 --> 00:09:38,649 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: mum's care, and what those environmental 253 00:09:38,650 --> 00:09:40,389 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: behaviours are telling us about a 254 00:09:40,390 --> 00:09:42,219 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child's communication and their wishes 255 00:09:42,220 --> 00:09:43,509 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and feelings. 256 00:09:43,510 --> 00:09:45,339 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: How do they inform us as our social 257 00:09:45,340 --> 00:09:46,749 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: workers? How do they inform our 258 00:09:46,750 --> 00:09:49,029 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment? How do they inform our work 259 00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:51,789 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: plan going forward, and how we conduct 260 00:09:51,790 --> 00:09:53,799 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: our intervention and how we engage that 261 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,539 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child moving forward as our work 262 00:09:55,540 --> 00:09:56,540 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: progresses? 263 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,839 EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah. Damien, I think you're totally 264 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,669 EMILY WADDINGTON: right and there's so many valid points in 265 00:10:00,670 --> 00:10:03,009 EMILY WADDINGTON: there. One thing that I really love and 266 00:10:03,010 --> 00:10:05,409 EMILY WADDINGTON: think is so important about considering 267 00:10:05,410 --> 00:10:07,479 EMILY WADDINGTON: other forms of communication outside of 268 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,329 EMILY WADDINGTON: speaking, is it's something about perhaps 269 00:10:10,330 --> 00:10:11,979 EMILY WADDINGTON: taking off the pressure and 270 00:10:11,980 --> 00:10:14,739 EMILY WADDINGTON: responsibility of a young person to say 271 00:10:14,740 --> 00:10:16,527 EMILY WADDINGTON: something out loud which can just feel so 272 00:10:16,528 --> 00:10:19,189 EMILY WADDINGTON: incredibly scary. 273 00:10:19,190 --> 00:10:20,559 EMILY WADDINGTON: Quite often we might have young people 274 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:22,569 EMILY WADDINGTON: who are being abused who feel a sense of 275 00:10:22,570 --> 00:10:24,399 EMILY WADDINGTON: loyalty towards the person who is 276 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:25,809 EMILY WADDINGTON: perpetrating the abuse. 277 00:10:25,810 --> 00:10:28,629 EMILY WADDINGTON: And if we can be open to seeing and 278 00:10:28,630 --> 00:10:31,719 EMILY WADDINGTON: hearing other forms of communication, we 279 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,129 EMILY WADDINGTON: can almost take some pressure or 280 00:10:33,130 --> 00:10:35,229 EMILY WADDINGTON: responsibility of that young person. 281 00:10:35,230 --> 00:10:37,569 EMILY WADDINGTON: So it's not, "why didn't you tell us?" 282 00:10:37,570 --> 00:10:38,919 EMILY WADDINGTON: It's "why didn't we look? 283 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,959 EMILY WADDINGTON: How can we see more what you're trying to 284 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,399 EMILY WADDINGTON: tell us?" And I think that's so 285 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:43,669 EMILY WADDINGTON: important. 286 00:10:43,670 --> 00:10:46,029 JULIAN FABIAN: It feels we're now moving on, having laid 287 00:10:46,030 --> 00:10:47,469 JULIAN FABIAN: the foundations of what the voice of the 288 00:10:47,470 --> 00:10:49,419 JULIAN FABIAN: child is and why it's important and how we 289 00:10:49,420 --> 00:10:51,167 JULIAN FABIAN: talk about children and the voice of child, 290 00:10:51,168 --> 00:10:53,409 JULIAN FABIAN: to thinking about what that looks like in 291 00:10:53,410 --> 00:10:56,379 JULIAN FABIAN: practice. I'm interested in, if I saw 292 00:10:56,380 --> 00:10:58,319 JULIAN FABIAN: you 'doing' the voice of child in social 293 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,609 JULIAN FABIAN: work practice, what might that look like 294 00:11:00,610 --> 00:11:01,929 JULIAN FABIAN: practically? 295 00:11:01,930 --> 00:11:04,659 EMILY WADDINGTON: So I used to work in a team where we 296 00:11:04,660 --> 00:11:05,660 EMILY WADDINGTON: would have... 297 00:11:06,610 --> 00:11:08,469 EMILY WADDINGTON: If there was a professionals meeting, so 298 00:11:08,470 --> 00:11:10,539 EMILY WADDINGTON: if it was a case of families and young 299 00:11:10,540 --> 00:11:12,789 EMILY WADDINGTON: people not being invited to that meeting, 300 00:11:12,790 --> 00:11:15,579 EMILY WADDINGTON: we would have a professional act as the 301 00:11:15,580 --> 00:11:17,379 EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child in that meeting. 302 00:11:17,380 --> 00:11:19,239 EMILY WADDINGTON: And that was so powerful. 303 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,459 EMILY WADDINGTON: Everyone would go around and give their 304 00:11:21,460 --> 00:11:24,039 EMILY WADDINGTON: updates and their professional opinion, 305 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,049 EMILY WADDINGTON: and then the person who was acting as the 306 00:11:26,050 --> 00:11:29,259 EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child would give a summary, 307 00:11:29,260 --> 00:11:31,779 EMILY WADDINGTON: talk about how they think that might have 308 00:11:31,780 --> 00:11:34,209 EMILY WADDINGTON: felt for the young person, what they 309 00:11:34,210 --> 00:11:36,789 EMILY WADDINGTON: might need, what their experiences are. 310 00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:38,092 EMILY WADDINGTON: And this was so powerful. 311 00:11:38,093 --> 00:11:41,919 EMILY WADDINGTON: It meant the voice of the young person 312 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,839 EMILY WADDINGTON: had the same amount of time, the same 313 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,179 EMILY WADDINGTON: weight, the same value as what everyone 314 00:11:46,180 --> 00:11:48,519 EMILY WADDINGTON: else was saying in the meeting. 315 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,709 EMILY WADDINGTON: But also for me personally, when I was in 316 00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:54,369 EMILY WADDINGTON: that role, I found it very emotional, 317 00:11:54,370 --> 00:11:56,709 EMILY WADDINGTON: sometimes quite draining, and that was 318 00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:58,899 EMILY WADDINGTON: also such useful information as well. 319 00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:01,339 EMILY WADDINGTON: It helped me to maybe understand the 320 00:12:01,340 --> 00:12:02,739 EMILY WADDINGTON: young person I was working with a bit 321 00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:05,169 EMILY WADDINGTON: more, try to put them in context, 322 00:12:05,170 --> 00:12:06,789 EMILY WADDINGTON: increased empathy, increased 323 00:12:06,790 --> 00:12:08,079 EMILY WADDINGTON: understanding for them. 324 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,079 EMILY WADDINGTON: That's something I've done in meetings 325 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,359 EMILY WADDINGTON: before, and I found to be really, really 326 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,129 EMILY WADDINGTON: powerful and really useful. 327 00:12:15,130 --> 00:12:17,379 JULIAN FABIAN: So there's something about how that helped 328 00:12:17,380 --> 00:12:20,349 JULIAN FABIAN: to keep the voice of the child or 329 00:12:20,350 --> 00:12:22,449 JULIAN FABIAN: their lived experience, their world, front 330 00:12:22,450 --> 00:12:25,329 JULIAN FABIAN: and centre to your thinking, and your 331 00:12:25,330 --> 00:12:27,999 JULIAN FABIAN: assessment and your intervention. 332 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,069 EMILY WADDINGTON: Absolutely. And I think it's also 333 00:12:30,070 --> 00:12:32,529 EMILY WADDINGTON: important just to add in that where we've 334 00:12:32,530 --> 00:12:34,239 EMILY WADDINGTON: got meetings with the young person and 335 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,339 EMILY WADDINGTON: the family there we want to give them 336 00:12:36,340 --> 00:12:39,369 EMILY WADDINGTON: that space. Maybe prepare them in advance 337 00:12:39,370 --> 00:12:40,546 EMILY WADDINGTON: about what they might want to say, but 338 00:12:41,710 --> 00:12:43,509 EMILY WADDINGTON: making sure where there's those meetings 339 00:12:43,510 --> 00:12:45,459 EMILY WADDINGTON: where the young person can't be present, 340 00:12:45,460 --> 00:12:48,369 EMILY WADDINGTON: that we're still giving them space, room 341 00:12:48,370 --> 00:12:51,009 EMILY WADDINGTON: and real validity in those meetings. 342 00:12:51,010 --> 00:12:52,729 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I agree. It's very much about treating 343 00:12:52,730 --> 00:12:54,309 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the child like they're an expert in 344 00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:56,949 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: their own life, really, and about 345 00:12:56,950 --> 00:12:58,959 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: including them in all of the work, 346 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,559 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: whether it is your assessments, 347 00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:04,601 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: your work plans, your desired outcomes, 348 00:13:04,602 --> 00:13:06,399 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and at every point in your 349 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,019 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: intervention, perhaps getting the 350 00:13:08,020 --> 00:13:10,594 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child's views on that piece of work. 351 00:13:10,595 --> 00:13:12,890 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: As a consultant social worker reviewing 352 00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:16,329 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: casework, some of the most impressive 353 00:13:16,330 --> 00:13:19,449 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: cases are those where the practitioner 354 00:13:19,450 --> 00:13:21,579 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: will actually sit with the child, go 355 00:13:21,580 --> 00:13:22,840 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: through their assessment point-by-point, 356 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,679 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and get the child's views about that 357 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:28,839 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: point, whether it's a risk or whether 358 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,489 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: it's a desired outcome. 359 00:13:30,490 --> 00:13:32,529 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And all of that can be directly linked 360 00:13:32,530 --> 00:13:33,530 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to the work plan then. 361 00:13:34,270 --> 00:13:36,039 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Any of the cases that I would deem 362 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:37,989 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outstanding will have that voice of the 363 00:13:37,990 --> 00:13:40,089 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child element in them from the 364 00:13:40,090 --> 00:13:41,949 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: beginning of the case right towards the 365 00:13:41,950 --> 00:13:43,959 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: end. And at every junction of the case 366 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,329 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: where the child is actually, kind of, 367 00:13:46,330 --> 00:13:48,579 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: almost consulted and collaborated in 368 00:13:48,580 --> 00:13:51,219 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: all of the work, and can actually 369 00:13:51,220 --> 00:13:53,319 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: direct the work to an extent to 370 00:13:55,060 --> 00:13:56,739 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: meet a need that they've identified 371 00:13:56,740 --> 00:13:58,209 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: themselves. As I say, treating the 372 00:13:58,210 --> 00:13:59,559 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child like an expert in their own 373 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:00,969 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: lives, you know. 374 00:14:00,970 --> 00:14:02,739 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: What I would say practically too, in 375 00:14:02,740 --> 00:14:04,899 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: casework, because of what we've just 376 00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:07,179 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: said — about the many barriers, for 377 00:14:07,180 --> 00:14:08,739 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: instance, the many types of 378 00:14:08,740 --> 00:14:11,139 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication — is it's always good to 379 00:14:11,140 --> 00:14:12,849 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: consult a fellow professional, whether 380 00:14:12,850 --> 00:14:15,909 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: it's a speech and language expert or a 381 00:14:15,910 --> 00:14:17,949 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: teacher at school or someone else that 382 00:14:17,950 --> 00:14:21,279 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: will have a greater degree of 383 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,019 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: knowledge in how to best communicate 384 00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:25,029 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: with that child or a parent. 385 00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:27,789 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So taking on board that and learning 386 00:14:27,790 --> 00:14:29,529 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: new skills as you go along in your 387 00:14:29,530 --> 00:14:31,329 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: work. So an almost, kind of. Reflection 388 00:14:31,330 --> 00:14:34,059 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and action aspect about it. 389 00:14:34,060 --> 00:14:35,469 EMILY WADDINGTON: I love how you describe that. 390 00:14:35,470 --> 00:14:38,049 EMILY WADDINGTON: That's so, I think, humble from a 391 00:14:38,050 --> 00:14:39,759 EMILY WADDINGTON: professional point of view. 392 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,219 EMILY WADDINGTON: So you're going in to see this young 393 00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:44,469 EMILY WADDINGTON: person. Who else knows this young person? 394 00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:46,359 EMILY WADDINGTON: How can they help you build a 395 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,699 EMILY WADDINGTON: relationship with them, which is great, 396 00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:51,249 EMILY WADDINGTON: but also about them being the expert in 397 00:14:51,250 --> 00:14:53,139 EMILY WADDINGTON: their own lives? I think that comes 398 00:14:53,140 --> 00:14:55,149 EMILY WADDINGTON: through so strongly in how you talk, 399 00:14:55,150 --> 00:14:56,417 EMILY WADDINGTON: Damien, but especially when we're 400 00:14:56,418 --> 00:14:58,179 EMILY WADDINGTON: thinking about about the voice of the child, 401 00:14:58,180 --> 00:15:00,369 EMILY WADDINGTON: it's always got to be about that 402 00:15:00,370 --> 00:15:02,799 EMILY WADDINGTON: collaboration and that informing the work 403 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,469 EMILY WADDINGTON: that we do, rather than is excluding the 404 00:15:05,470 --> 00:15:07,089 EMILY WADDINGTON: child from this completely thinking we 405 00:15:07,090 --> 00:15:09,519 EMILY WADDINGTON: know best, which is much more damaging, 406 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,069 EMILY WADDINGTON: unhelpful and ultimately ineffective. 407 00:15:12,070 --> 00:15:13,449 EMILY WADDINGTON: I think it's how I've described it. 408 00:15:13,450 --> 00:15:14,829 EMILY WADDINGTON: It's really helpful. 409 00:15:14,830 --> 00:15:17,889 JULIAN FABIAN: So where you as a social worker aren't able 410 00:15:17,890 --> 00:15:19,899 JULIAN FABIAN: to sit in the room with a child — because I 411 00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:21,819 JULIAN FABIAN: think the example you gave Damien was really 412 00:15:21,820 --> 00:15:23,869 JULIAN FABIAN: helpful about the the worker sitting in the 413 00:15:23,870 --> 00:15:25,429 JULIAN FABIAN: room with the child and speaking to him and 414 00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:27,949 JULIAN FABIAN: listening to him. Where that's physically 415 00:15:27,950 --> 00:15:30,979 JULIAN FABIAN: not possible, what might capturing the voice 416 00:15:30,980 --> 00:15:33,559 JULIAN FABIAN: of the child look like in social work 417 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:34,879 JULIAN FABIAN: practice? 418 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,001 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: For me, observation is key. 419 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,379 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: What immediately would spring to mind 420 00:15:39,380 --> 00:15:41,149 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: is perhaps an unborn child, if you're 421 00:15:41,150 --> 00:15:43,309 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: working with a pregnant mum, for 422 00:15:43,310 --> 00:15:46,249 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: instance. So a lot of observation about 423 00:15:46,250 --> 00:15:48,799 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the preparation for the unborn child, 424 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,537 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the level of support of both parents 425 00:15:50,538 --> 00:15:52,759 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and how they talk about the unborn 426 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:54,559 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child. So all are indicators. 427 00:15:57,290 --> 00:15:58,939 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: You can indicate what would be safe for 428 00:15:58,940 --> 00:16:00,709 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: this child, what is good for this child 429 00:16:00,710 --> 00:16:02,299 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and what this child wants. Ultimately 430 00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:03,799 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: what the... If we're talking about an 431 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,989 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: unborn child, they want to arrive into 432 00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:07,543 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: a safe, secure and happy environment, 433 00:16:07,544 --> 00:16:09,559 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you know. And a lot of your 434 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,889 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: observations, as a practitioner, 435 00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:14,479 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you will have a fair amount of 436 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,029 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: indicators of that, that you can then 437 00:16:17,030 --> 00:16:18,889 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: build into your analysis to paint a 438 00:16:18,890 --> 00:16:19,999 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: picture. 439 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,829 EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah, I think for me it's about getting 440 00:16:21,830 --> 00:16:24,799 EMILY WADDINGTON: those observations where you can. 441 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,119 EMILY WADDINGTON: And also I think trying to offer 442 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,219 EMILY WADDINGTON: different means of communication, like if 443 00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:31,399 EMILY WADDINGTON: you can't be there in person talking 444 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,349 EMILY WADDINGTON: to the young person. I've had young 445 00:16:33,350 --> 00:16:35,569 EMILY WADDINGTON: people who might find video calls maybe a 446 00:16:35,570 --> 00:16:37,849 EMILY WADDINGTON: bit overwhelming or a bit frightening. 447 00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:39,499 EMILY WADDINGTON: So they prefer a voice call, or they 448 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:41,836 EMILY WADDINGTON: might prefer to even text sometimes — 449 00:16:41,837 --> 00:16:44,209 EMILY WADDINGTON: which is, I think can be limiting in 450 00:16:44,210 --> 00:16:45,679 EMILY WADDINGTON: terms of what we can get. But there's 451 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,359 EMILY WADDINGTON: something about having a conversation 452 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,519 EMILY WADDINGTON: with that young person about what is the 453 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,469 EMILY WADDINGTON: best way for us to communicate with you. 454 00:16:51,470 --> 00:16:53,599 EMILY WADDINGTON: I really want to hear what's going on for 455 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,689 EMILY WADDINGTON: you, what feels easiest and 456 00:16:56,690 --> 00:16:59,179 EMILY WADDINGTON: and most helpful and most meaningful to 457 00:16:59,180 --> 00:17:00,889 EMILY WADDINGTON: each young person. 458 00:17:00,890 --> 00:17:02,569 JULIAN FABIAN: Thanks, Emily. That's helpful. 459 00:17:02,570 --> 00:17:04,159 JULIAN FABIAN: The other thing that popped into my head was 460 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,618 JULIAN FABIAN: something that Damien referenced helpfully 461 00:17:06,619 --> 00:17:08,479 JULIAN FABIAN: around biases. 462 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:09,799 JULIAN FABIAN: And I think some people might say, "well, 463 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,078 JULIAN FABIAN: hang on a minute. I'm a qualified 464 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:13,999 JULIAN FABIAN: professional social worker. 465 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,239 JULIAN FABIAN: I'm aware of myself as an individual. 466 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,338 JULIAN FABIAN: I don't have any biases or they don't 467 00:17:19,339 --> 00:17:22,399 JULIAN FABIAN: influence me." But I'm interested what 468 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,799 JULIAN FABIAN: the biases we might carry in terms of 469 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,108 JULIAN FABIAN: working with the voice of a child and how we 470 00:17:27,109 --> 00:17:29,869 JULIAN FABIAN: might manage those or attend to those so 471 00:17:29,870 --> 00:17:31,519 JULIAN FABIAN: they don't get in the way. 472 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,009 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think reflection is the key word, you 473 00:17:34,010 --> 00:17:36,379 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: know. Just reflect on our practice, 474 00:17:36,380 --> 00:17:38,719 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: reflect on our feelings, reflect on our 475 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,479 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assumptions. Use supervision, I think, 476 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:42,970 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to discuss any biases, 477 00:17:45,290 --> 00:17:46,609 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: as we all have them. 478 00:17:46,610 --> 00:17:48,979 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So I think it's about understanding the 479 00:17:48,980 --> 00:17:51,049 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child's identity, the child's 480 00:17:51,050 --> 00:17:54,379 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: background and factoring into 481 00:17:54,380 --> 00:17:56,569 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: your reflections any biases you will 482 00:17:56,570 --> 00:17:59,029 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: have regarding identity, cultural 483 00:17:59,030 --> 00:18:01,609 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: background, sexuality, any of that. 484 00:18:01,610 --> 00:18:03,559 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And using the supervision process to 485 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,359 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: tease all of that out and reflect on 486 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:06,079 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: that. 487 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,659 EMILY WADDINGTON: It's something that we actually need to 488 00:18:08,660 --> 00:18:10,339 EMILY WADDINGTON: own, that we do have biases. 489 00:18:10,340 --> 00:18:12,919 EMILY WADDINGTON: Because once we do that, we can engage 490 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,009 EMILY WADDINGTON: much more effectively and honestly in all 491 00:18:16,010 --> 00:18:17,899 EMILY WADDINGTON: the things Damien is talking about. 492 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:20,689 EMILY WADDINGTON: So once we can say, "do you know what, 493 00:18:20,690 --> 00:18:22,699 EMILY WADDINGTON: this is something that I sometimes trip 494 00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:25,729 EMILY WADDINGTON: up on or a bias that I hold", we 495 00:18:25,730 --> 00:18:27,889 EMILY WADDINGTON: can then take that to supervision and 496 00:18:27,890 --> 00:18:30,919 EMILY WADDINGTON: talk about it in a place that feels safe 497 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,289 EMILY WADDINGTON: and much more constructive. 498 00:18:33,290 --> 00:18:34,759 EMILY WADDINGTON: But yeah, I think for me, reflection has 499 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,909 EMILY WADDINGTON: got to be the most important place to be. 500 00:18:37,910 --> 00:18:39,679 JULIAN FABIAN: Yeah, that's helpful. So there's something 501 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,039 JULIAN FABIAN: about being self-aware, and about working 502 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,649 JULIAN FABIAN: in an environment of high support and high 503 00:18:45,650 --> 00:18:48,709 JULIAN FABIAN: challenge, and to make sure biases are 504 00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:51,889 JULIAN FABIAN: brought to light and managed. 505 00:18:51,890 --> 00:18:53,602 JULIAN FABIAN: So we've referenced, in passing, record 506 00:18:53,603 --> 00:18:55,939 JULIAN FABIAN: keeping. But I wanted to spend a little time 507 00:18:55,940 --> 00:18:58,699 JULIAN FABIAN: thinking about the records we keep, and 508 00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:01,579 JULIAN FABIAN: particularly what the voice of a child might 509 00:19:01,580 --> 00:19:04,759 JULIAN FABIAN: look like in good record keeping, but also 510 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,349 JULIAN FABIAN: why that's important. 511 00:19:06,350 --> 00:19:08,449 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think record keeping is extremely 512 00:19:08,450 --> 00:19:11,179 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: important. What springs to mind is 513 00:19:11,180 --> 00:19:13,309 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: perhaps a child brought up in the care 514 00:19:13,310 --> 00:19:15,589 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: system, or a looked after child, who 515 00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:17,029 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: request their records. 516 00:19:17,030 --> 00:19:19,009 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: What you've got to think as a child 517 00:19:19,010 --> 00:19:20,869 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: care professional, as a social worker, 518 00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:23,449 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: is what will these records tell this 519 00:19:23,450 --> 00:19:25,249 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child? What are they going to look like 520 00:19:25,250 --> 00:19:27,469 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: when the child requests these records 521 00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:29,239 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and looks back and wants to know about 522 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,819 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: their life and their identity and the 523 00:19:31,820 --> 00:19:33,979 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: really, really, really crucial and 524 00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:36,439 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: important decisions that have impacted 525 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:37,440 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: on their life. 526 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:39,739 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think the records need to be 527 00:19:39,740 --> 00:19:41,539 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: accurate. The language needs to be 528 00:19:41,540 --> 00:19:43,939 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: thought about. They need to be quite 529 00:19:43,940 --> 00:19:45,409 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: transparent towards the child. 530 00:19:45,410 --> 00:19:47,569 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And I think that's why things like the 531 00:19:47,570 --> 00:19:49,969 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: voice of the child needs to be threaded 532 00:19:49,970 --> 00:19:51,559 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: throughout our records so that the 533 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,979 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child can see on a page 534 00:19:54,980 --> 00:19:56,899 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: their life, you know. What they've 535 00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:59,719 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: contributed to their life, how their 536 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,749 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: wishes and feelings were respected, how 537 00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:05,479 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: decisions were made with them included 538 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,669 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: in the decision-making process. 539 00:20:07,670 --> 00:20:09,469 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And the rationale is built into the 540 00:20:09,470 --> 00:20:11,869 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: records that any decisions that were 541 00:20:11,870 --> 00:20:13,609 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: made were made in the child's best 542 00:20:13,610 --> 00:20:15,859 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: interests, and that is evident when 543 00:20:15,860 --> 00:20:17,749 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: they're reading them retrospectively. 544 00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:19,279 EMILY WADDINGTON: The other things that I would add in 545 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,949 EMILY WADDINGTON: terms of recording, and making sure we 546 00:20:21,950 --> 00:20:23,469 EMILY WADDINGTON: are getting the voice of the child in 547 00:20:23,470 --> 00:20:26,019 EMILY WADDINGTON: recording, is having prompts. 548 00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:28,449 EMILY WADDINGTON: I find prompts on systems useful to talk 549 00:20:28,450 --> 00:20:31,545 EMILY WADDINGTON: about — what did you observe — 550 00:20:31,546 --> 00:20:33,969 EMILY WADDINGTON: as a little reminder that we're expanding 551 00:20:33,970 --> 00:20:35,888 EMILY WADDINGTON: out beyond what has a child said. 552 00:20:35,889 --> 00:20:37,839 EMILY WADDINGTON: What have we seen? 553 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,399 EMILY WADDINGTON: What have we observed? What do we think 554 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,619 EMILY WADDINGTON: that means? So I think having those 555 00:20:41,620 --> 00:20:44,409 EMILY WADDINGTON: prompts feels really useful. 556 00:20:44,410 --> 00:20:46,389 EMILY WADDINGTON: Again, we're talking about young people 557 00:20:46,390 --> 00:20:49,209 EMILY WADDINGTON: accessing records, which is so important. 558 00:20:49,210 --> 00:20:50,859 EMILY WADDINGTON: We hold so much information that is 559 00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:53,829 EMILY WADDINGTON: really sensitive, intimate, personal 560 00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:55,359 EMILY WADDINGTON: to that young person. 561 00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:56,769 EMILY WADDINGTON: So we really need to be showing that 562 00:20:56,770 --> 00:20:59,739 EMILY WADDINGTON: we've made every effort to that young 563 00:20:59,740 --> 00:21:01,359 EMILY WADDINGTON: person to really understand what was 564 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,149 EMILY WADDINGTON: going on for them, and to really show how 565 00:21:04,150 --> 00:21:05,889 EMILY WADDINGTON: hard we have tried to make things happen 566 00:21:05,890 --> 00:21:08,379 EMILY WADDINGTON: in their best interests. 567 00:21:08,380 --> 00:21:10,179 EMILY WADDINGTON: And again, just going back to the bit 568 00:21:10,180 --> 00:21:12,669 EMILY WADDINGTON: about observations, there is something 569 00:21:12,670 --> 00:21:14,499 EMILY WADDINGTON: for me about writing in a way that makes 570 00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:16,689 EMILY WADDINGTON: sure we don't, again, place that burden 571 00:21:16,690 --> 00:21:19,329 EMILY WADDINGTON: or responsibility on the young person to 572 00:21:19,330 --> 00:21:21,069 EMILY WADDINGTON: tell us everything. Tell us about, you 573 00:21:21,070 --> 00:21:22,539 EMILY WADDINGTON: know, these scary things that are 574 00:21:22,540 --> 00:21:24,279 EMILY WADDINGTON: happening. And we need to be really 575 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,289 EMILY WADDINGTON: careful when we're wording that in our 576 00:21:26,290 --> 00:21:28,299 EMILY WADDINGTON: recording. So it's not that just because 577 00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:30,099 EMILY WADDINGTON: the child hasn't said something doesn't 578 00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:32,979 EMILY WADDINGTON: necessarily mean that everything is fine. 579 00:21:34,150 --> 00:21:36,609 EMILY WADDINGTON: Our openness to other forms of communication 580 00:21:36,610 --> 00:21:39,129 EMILY WADDINGTON: and reflecting that in recording really 581 00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:40,419 EMILY WADDINGTON: shows we're working with the young 582 00:21:40,420 --> 00:21:42,999 EMILY WADDINGTON: person, and I think reduces 583 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,739 EMILY WADDINGTON: responsibility and pressure on them to 584 00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:46,269 EMILY WADDINGTON: have been the ones who are keeping 585 00:21:46,270 --> 00:21:48,069 EMILY WADDINGTON: themselves safe. When, actually, that's 586 00:21:48,070 --> 00:21:50,499 EMILY WADDINGTON: the job of professionals and parents and 587 00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:51,500 EMILY WADDINGTON: families. 588 00:21:52,079 --> 00:21:54,055 JULIAN FABIAN: There is something important also by 589 00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:57,219 JULIAN FABIAN: the sounds of it about capturing exactly 590 00:21:57,220 --> 00:21:59,919 JULIAN FABIAN: what children say on their records, using 591 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,719 JULIAN FABIAN: their actual words. 592 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,209 JULIAN FABIAN: And then when we make the jump between what 593 00:22:04,210 --> 00:22:06,909 JULIAN FABIAN: they say and what that might mean, and being 594 00:22:06,910 --> 00:22:09,639 JULIAN FABIAN: aware of our biases in terms of how we 595 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,889 JULIAN FABIAN: interpret that and therefore what we do 596 00:22:11,890 --> 00:22:14,109 JULIAN FABIAN: about that. The other thing I'm interested 597 00:22:14,110 --> 00:22:16,869 JULIAN FABIAN: in is, going back to the issue of 598 00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:19,822 JULIAN FABIAN: assessments, why the voice of the child is 599 00:22:20,860 --> 00:22:22,959 JULIAN FABIAN: so important to assessments. 600 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,599 JULIAN FABIAN: Or, another way, what's the impact of having 601 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,329 JULIAN FABIAN: the child's voice central to your 602 00:22:28,330 --> 00:22:29,589 JULIAN FABIAN: assessment? 603 00:22:29,590 --> 00:22:30,969 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think it's really, really important 604 00:22:30,970 --> 00:22:32,379 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: in terms of... Depending what the 605 00:22:32,380 --> 00:22:33,849 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment or the focus of the 606 00:22:33,850 --> 00:22:36,189 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment is. Speaking to the child 607 00:22:36,190 --> 00:22:39,009 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: alone, I think is a crucial element to 608 00:22:39,010 --> 00:22:41,649 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: any assessment so that you can kind of 609 00:22:41,650 --> 00:22:43,599 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: ascertain their wishes and feelings 610 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,279 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: about a particular subject. 611 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,409 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Very much a child will get to the nib 612 00:22:47,410 --> 00:22:49,569 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: of a problem and give you their interpretation 613 00:22:49,570 --> 00:22:51,909 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: of it, you know. I suppose what's key, 614 00:22:51,910 --> 00:22:53,259 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: what is a key issue, it's really 615 00:22:53,260 --> 00:22:55,299 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: important what questions you ask the 616 00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:56,649 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child as well. 617 00:22:56,650 --> 00:22:58,689 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So what are you asking them, and what 618 00:22:58,690 --> 00:23:00,759 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: are you asking of them, and what's your 619 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,326 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: observation of their response can 620 00:23:03,460 --> 00:23:06,429 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: inform your assessment in great detail 621 00:23:06,430 --> 00:23:08,379 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and ultimately lead to a clearer 622 00:23:08,380 --> 00:23:09,429 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outcome. 623 00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:11,139 JULIAN FABIAN: So there's something about perhaps the 624 00:23:11,140 --> 00:23:13,689 JULIAN FABIAN: language you use when we ask questions of 625 00:23:13,690 --> 00:23:16,569 JULIAN FABIAN: children, so it's clear and understandable 626 00:23:16,570 --> 00:23:17,889 JULIAN FABIAN: and accessible. 627 00:23:17,890 --> 00:23:20,169 JULIAN FABIAN: But also perhaps there's something about 628 00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:22,779 JULIAN FABIAN: ensuring we're not leading them somewhere 629 00:23:22,780 --> 00:23:24,219 JULIAN FABIAN: they may not want to go. 630 00:23:24,220 --> 00:23:27,069 JULIAN FABIAN: So, not providing them with questions that 631 00:23:27,070 --> 00:23:29,919 JULIAN FABIAN: almost assume the outcome, assume the 632 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,139 JULIAN FABIAN: answer. So we're being as clear and 633 00:23:32,140 --> 00:23:35,559 JULIAN FABIAN: transparent and open to their voice 634 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,278 JULIAN FABIAN: as possible. 635 00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:38,949 EMILY WADDINGTON: I do sometimes think where it feels age 636 00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:40,869 EMILY WADDINGTON: appropriate, there's something about 637 00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:42,879 EMILY WADDINGTON: context as well. 638 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,469 EMILY WADDINGTON: I've worked with young people who have 639 00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:46,149 EMILY WADDINGTON: said, you know, "last time I said 640 00:23:46,150 --> 00:23:47,889 EMILY WADDINGTON: something to a social worker, they took 641 00:23:47,890 --> 00:23:50,079 EMILY WADDINGTON: it out of context and they wrote it down, 642 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,789 EMILY WADDINGTON: and all these things happened that 643 00:23:51,790 --> 00:23:53,829 EMILY WADDINGTON: suddenly felt out of control, or I wasn't 644 00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:56,409 EMILY WADDINGTON: being heard or listened to." So I do 645 00:23:56,410 --> 00:23:58,119 EMILY WADDINGTON: think where it's age appropriate. 646 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:00,459 EMILY WADDINGTON: We can talk to young people about, you 647 00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:02,409 EMILY WADDINGTON: know, the context and maybe sometimes why 648 00:24:02,410 --> 00:24:04,029 EMILY WADDINGTON: we're asking those questions, what we're 649 00:24:04,030 --> 00:24:06,759 EMILY WADDINGTON: looking to learn and how it might inform 650 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,639 EMILY WADDINGTON: how we try to help or support the family. 651 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,649 EMILY WADDINGTON: And then, in terms of the importance of a 652 00:24:11,650 --> 00:24:14,559 EMILY WADDINGTON: child's voice in an assessment, I don't 653 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,239 EMILY WADDINGTON: think we can get an assessment right 654 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,399 EMILY WADDINGTON: without the child's voice. 655 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:19,869 EMILY WADDINGTON: Everything that Damien said about a child 656 00:24:19,870 --> 00:24:21,939 EMILY WADDINGTON: being an expert in their own world, we 657 00:24:21,940 --> 00:24:24,369 EMILY WADDINGTON: can't understand their experience, their 658 00:24:24,370 --> 00:24:27,039 EMILY WADDINGTON: wants, their wishes without the child's 659 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,049 EMILY WADDINGTON: voice. And then if we get the child's 660 00:24:29,050 --> 00:24:31,749 EMILY WADDINGTON: voice and we listen to it, I think we 661 00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:34,329 EMILY WADDINGTON: really increase the likelihood that we 662 00:24:34,330 --> 00:24:36,009 EMILY WADDINGTON: can create positive change for a young 663 00:24:36,010 --> 00:24:37,569 EMILY WADDINGTON: person and their family. 664 00:24:37,570 --> 00:24:40,389 EMILY WADDINGTON: You know, are we offering intervention 665 00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:42,549 EMILY WADDINGTON: that meets the child's or young person's 666 00:24:42,550 --> 00:24:45,399 EMILY WADDINGTON: needs? Is it what they want to happen? 667 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,219 EMILY WADDINGTON: And also does it offer validity? 668 00:24:48,220 --> 00:24:49,689 EMILY WADDINGTON: Sometimes there might be disagreement 669 00:24:49,690 --> 00:24:52,089 EMILY WADDINGTON: about what a young person needs or about 670 00:24:52,090 --> 00:24:54,579 EMILY WADDINGTON: what intervention would be useful. 671 00:24:54,580 --> 00:24:56,379 EMILY WADDINGTON: But actually, if we can say, you know, 672 00:24:56,380 --> 00:24:58,209 EMILY WADDINGTON: this is what we think the young person 673 00:24:58,210 --> 00:25:00,519 EMILY WADDINGTON: wants based on what we've seen, what 674 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,129 EMILY WADDINGTON: we've heard, what we've observed, I think 675 00:25:03,130 --> 00:25:04,516 EMILY WADDINGTON: it really makes the whole assessment more robust 676 00:25:06,010 --> 00:25:08,109 EMILY WADDINGTON: when we've got and the person's voice 677 00:25:08,110 --> 00:25:10,179 EMILY WADDINGTON: running all the way through it. 678 00:25:10,180 --> 00:25:11,589 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Just to jump on that a little bit, 679 00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:14,919 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Emily, is the demonstrating 680 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,589 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to the child, kind of, you said, we 681 00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:19,629 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: did. "You said this, this is the 682 00:25:19,630 --> 00:25:21,369 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outcome of our assessment, you know, 683 00:25:21,370 --> 00:25:23,319 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: which was directly influenced by you." 684 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,199 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So I suppose promoting that trustful 685 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,239 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: relationship, you know. This was your 686 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,979 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: voice. This was the impact of your 687 00:25:29,980 --> 00:25:31,959 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: voice. And this is the outcome of my 688 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,239 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment. And it's quite evident that 689 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,459 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you're a very, very important person in 690 00:25:36,460 --> 00:25:39,129 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: this assessment process, and you have 691 00:25:39,130 --> 00:25:40,080 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: influenced it. 692 00:25:40,081 --> 00:25:41,081 EMILY WADDINGTON: Absolutely. 693 00:25:41,650 --> 00:25:43,719 EMILY WADDINGTON: The assessment is the first part of the 694 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,369 EMILY WADDINGTON: relationship with the young person. 695 00:25:45,370 --> 00:25:47,679 EMILY WADDINGTON: And if we can build trust and show their 696 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,229 EMILY WADDINGTON: importance there, that really sets the 697 00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:51,249 EMILY WADDINGTON: scene. 698 00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:53,589 JULIAN FABIAN: And practically, thinking about how we close 699 00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:57,039 JULIAN FABIAN: the loop, that can include: we ask questions 700 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,419 JULIAN FABIAN: of them or we have a discussion; they give 701 00:25:59,420 --> 00:26:01,989 JULIAN FABIAN: some feedback; and then there's how we share 702 00:26:01,990 --> 00:26:05,199 JULIAN FABIAN: our information with them to check is fair 703 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:06,909 JULIAN FABIAN: and accurate, to check we haven't been 704 00:26:06,910 --> 00:26:09,549 JULIAN FABIAN: influenced by our biases, to engage and 705 00:26:09,550 --> 00:26:11,779 JULIAN FABIAN: empower the young person that they feel part 706 00:26:11,780 --> 00:26:14,109 JULIAN FABIAN: of the process and that it's representative. 707 00:26:14,110 --> 00:26:16,599 JULIAN FABIAN: So we close the loop in terms of capturing 708 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,269 JULIAN FABIAN: the voice of the child accurately. 709 00:26:19,270 --> 00:26:20,689 JULIAN FABIAN: So finally, what I would like to ask the 710 00:26:20,690 --> 00:26:24,129 JULIAN FABIAN: both of you is: what's the one key takeaway 711 00:26:24,130 --> 00:26:26,859 JULIAN FABIAN: you'd want to leave listeners with in terms 712 00:26:26,860 --> 00:26:28,659 JULIAN FABIAN: of the voice of the child in social work 713 00:26:28,660 --> 00:26:29,769 JULIAN FABIAN: practice? 714 00:26:29,770 --> 00:26:31,719 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Mine would be not to get caught up on 715 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,759 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: adult issues. You know, we do have 716 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,769 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: biases. We do have relationships with 717 00:26:35,770 --> 00:26:38,529 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: adults. We have all of these various 718 00:26:38,530 --> 00:26:40,809 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: pressures in work and families. 719 00:26:40,810 --> 00:26:43,179 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And I think my one key takeaway would 720 00:26:43,180 --> 00:26:44,469 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: be go straight to the heart of the 721 00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:46,219 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: matter and go straight to the child, 722 00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:47,949 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and there is a font of knowledge 723 00:26:47,950 --> 00:26:50,049 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: waiting right there in your level of 724 00:26:50,050 --> 00:26:52,509 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication with the child. As we've 725 00:26:52,510 --> 00:26:55,509 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: discussed earlier, that child might 726 00:26:55,510 --> 00:26:58,249 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: be non-speaking, there could be 727 00:26:58,250 --> 00:27:01,659 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: learning disability, but there's ways 728 00:27:01,660 --> 00:27:03,819 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: around that and there's ways to capture 729 00:27:03,820 --> 00:27:05,529 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the child's wishes and feelings. 730 00:27:05,530 --> 00:27:08,259 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So go straight to the child I would say 731 00:27:08,260 --> 00:27:10,239 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: would be my one take away. 732 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,490 EMILY WADDINGTON: Oh, I just so want to squeeze two in. 733 00:27:13,930 --> 00:27:15,089 JULIAN FABIAN: I can allow you two. 734 00:27:15,090 --> 00:27:17,409 EMILY WADDINGTON: Very generous, thank you. 735 00:27:17,410 --> 00:27:20,439 EMILY WADDINGTON: So my first one is to remember that the 736 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,599 EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child is more than just 737 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:23,889 EMILY WADDINGTON: speaking. 738 00:27:23,890 --> 00:27:25,929 EMILY WADDINGTON: Please look. Please observe. 739 00:27:25,930 --> 00:27:28,359 EMILY WADDINGTON: Write down what you see, think about what 740 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:31,569 EMILY WADDINGTON: it might mean, and consider that together 741 00:27:31,570 --> 00:27:33,279 EMILY WADDINGTON: with something speaking, if that's 742 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:34,659 EMILY WADDINGTON: available to you. 743 00:27:34,660 --> 00:27:36,009 EMILY WADDINGTON: And then my second point is just to 744 00:27:36,010 --> 00:27:38,709 EMILY WADDINGTON: borrow from Damien, which is that the 745 00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:41,559 EMILY WADDINGTON: child is the expert in their own world. 746 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,029 EMILY WADDINGTON: I think if you use that as a guiding 747 00:27:43,030 --> 00:27:44,769 EMILY WADDINGTON: principle, you are going to work really 748 00:27:44,770 --> 00:27:46,809 EMILY WADDINGTON: hard to capture the voice of the child in 749 00:27:46,810 --> 00:27:48,759 EMILY WADDINGTON: a really meaningful way for the rest of 750 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,109 EMILY WADDINGTON: your work as well. 751 00:27:50,110 --> 00:27:51,789 JULIAN FABIAN: Great. Thanks Damien and Emily. 752 00:27:51,790 --> 00:27:53,559 JULIAN FABIAN: It's been really good to have you with me 753 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,799 JULIAN FABIAN: today to explore the key issue of voice 754 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,139 JULIAN FABIAN: of the child in social work practice. 755 00:27:59,140 --> 00:28:01,539 JULIAN FABIAN: I think it will be really helpful to our 756 00:28:01,540 --> 00:28:03,549 JULIAN FABIAN: audience. So thanks for being with us. 757 00:28:03,550 --> 00:28:04,659 DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Thank you very much, Julian. 758 00:28:04,660 --> 00:28:06,024 EMILY WADDINGTON: Thanks, Julian. Thanks, Damien. 759 00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:14,019 OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast. 760 00:28:14,020 --> 00:28:16,929 OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was 761 00:28:16,930 --> 00:28:19,539 OUTRO: up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child 762 00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:20,540 OUTRO: protection is ever changing. 763 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,739 OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current 764 00:28:23,740 --> 00:28:26,439 OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training, 765 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,439 OUTRO: information or resources, please visit 766 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,737 OUTRO: our website for professionals at 767 00:28:31,738 --> 00:28:32,738 OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.