INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning podcast, where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection
INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together
INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.
JULIAN FABIAN: A very warm welcome to the NSPCC Learning
JULIAN FABIAN: podcast.
JULIAN FABIAN: I'm Julian Fabian, consultant social worker
JULIAN FABIAN: in the NSPCC's Quality and Practice team,
JULIAN FABIAN: and for this episode I'm joined by two
JULIAN FABIAN: colleagues, Emily and Damian, to explore the
JULIAN FABIAN: subject of voice of the child in social work
JULIAN FABIAN: practice.
JULIAN FABIAN: So Emily and Damian, why don't you introduce
JULIAN FABIAN: yourselves and tell the listeners a little
JULIAN FABIAN: bit about yourselves, and then we'll dive
JULIAN FABIAN: into today's subject.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Hi, my name's Damien Fitzpatrick and
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I'm a consultant social worker based in
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the Quality and Practice team.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I've worked for the NSPCC now for about
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: ten years. Before that I was a local
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: authority social worker.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Our main role in the Quality and Practice
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: team is practice development and
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: quality assurance.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Hi, my name's Emily Waddington and I
EMILY WADDINGTON: currently work in Childline.
EMILY WADDINGTON: I've been a qualified social worker since
EMILY WADDINGTON: 2019, and I've worked in the local
EMILY WADDINGTON: authority and in the charity sector.
EMILY WADDINGTON: I've always been interested in the voice
EMILY WADDINGTON: of the child, and previously I've had
EMILY WADDINGTON: some work that I've done on the voice of
EMILY WADDINGTON: the infant be presented at the World
EMILY WADDINGTON: Infant Mental Health Conference.
JULIAN FABIAN: Thanks for that. Lovely to have you with me
JULIAN FABIAN: today. So I thought it'd be really helpful
JULIAN FABIAN: to start off our discussion by building a
JULIAN FABIAN: strong and clear foundation, and
JULIAN FABIAN: really be interested in what you think we
JULIAN FABIAN: mean by the voice of the child.
EMILY WADDINGTON: So I think, for me, the voice of the
EMILY WADDINGTON: child is about thinking about the young
EMILY WADDINGTON: person's experiences, their worries and
EMILY WADDINGTON: their wants.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And there's a whole host of different
EMILY WADDINGTON: ways we can hear and understand the young
EMILY WADDINGTON: person's voice. And really, what we mean
EMILY WADDINGTON: about the young person's voice and why it
EMILY WADDINGTON: becomes so useful is because once we've
EMILY WADDINGTON: got that voice of the young person, it
EMILY WADDINGTON: means the professionals can start acting
EMILY WADDINGTON: in the child's best interest.
JULIAN FABIAN: That's a good place to start.
JULIAN FABIAN: One of the things I'm interested in is why
JULIAN FABIAN: we believe the voice of the child is so
JULIAN FABIAN: important to social work practice.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Children and family social work exists
EMILY WADDINGTON: to safeguard and promote the welfare of
EMILY WADDINGTON: young people and children, and we simply
EMILY WADDINGTON: can't do that without an understanding
EMILY WADDINGTON: of the voice of the child.
EMILY WADDINGTON: So we need that understanding of their
EMILY WADDINGTON: experiences, their worries and their
EMILY WADDINGTON: wants in order for us to do our job, in
EMILY WADDINGTON: order to safeguard them and to promote
EMILY WADDINGTON: their welfare.
EMILY WADDINGTON: If we try to do that without hearing the
EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child, we risk practising in
EMILY WADDINGTON: a way that's really oppressive.
EMILY WADDINGTON: It's important that young people are able
EMILY WADDINGTON: to take part in the decisions that we're
EMILY WADDINGTON: making about them and that are in their
EMILY WADDINGTON: interest.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Yeah, I think the voice of the child is
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: central really to what we do in our
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: daily practice and working with
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: children. We want to promote best
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outcomes for children, and the best way
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to do that is to hear what the children
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: want and hear how to
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: best engage that child in any
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: intervention, promote engagement and
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: work towards...
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Work jointly, I suppose, with the child
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and the family in collaborating towards
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: good outcomes for the child.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So it's all about collaboration,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: engagement and the child's view and
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: wishes and feelings, I think.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Damien, just to jump in, that's such a
EMILY WADDINGTON: good point, isn't it? We don't want to
EMILY WADDINGTON: 'do' to families or to young people.
EMILY WADDINGTON: We absolutely want to work together.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And yeah, we can't do that without the
EMILY WADDINGTON: child's voice.
JULIAN FABIAN: Absolutely, yeah. So there's something about
JULIAN FABIAN: engaging children, collaborating with
JULIAN FABIAN: children, trying to move away from anything
JULIAN FABIAN: that would become oppressive or be
JULIAN FABIAN: oppressive. It makes me wonder about what
JULIAN FABIAN: barriers there might be to capturing the
JULIAN FABIAN: voice of a child, or what things might get
JULIAN FABIAN: in the way of that in social
JULIAN FABIAN: work practice, and how we might address
JULIAN FABIAN: those or overcome those.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Quite a few barriers spring to mind,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you know. You can have, almost like
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: disguised compliance within families —
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: not even disguised compliance, but not
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: consenting for a worker to actually
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: speak to a child, to speak to a child
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: alone, whether there's a safeguarding
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: issue or a child protection issue.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So that could be one barrier:
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: non-compliance and non-consent.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Other barriers could be the type of
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication. There could be a
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: learning disability of the child.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: It could be a non-speaking child.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: It could be a child that communicates
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: through alternative means.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Age — age appropriateness,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: how to communicate with the child.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I suppose it's important to have a
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: varied degree of skill levels in how to
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communicate in an age appropriate way
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: with a child. Yeah. So quite a few
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: barriers can spring up in the day-to-day
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: practice of a social worker really, I
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: would say.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah, Damien, I think you make a really
EMILY WADDINGTON: good point about, you know, for example,
EMILY WADDINGTON: a child who's not verbal or wants to
EMILY WADDINGTON: communicate in different ways.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Because sometimes I think one of the
EMILY WADDINGTON: barriers to capturing the child's voice
EMILY WADDINGTON: is that social workers can be overreliant
EMILY WADDINGTON: on the verbal voice only. So social
EMILY WADDINGTON: workers might not be looking at
EMILY WADDINGTON: behaviours, body language, facial
EMILY WADDINGTON: expressions.
EMILY WADDINGTON: There's something about being open to the
EMILY WADDINGTON: different ways we can get the child's
EMILY WADDINGTON: voice.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Some of the other things in terms of
EMILY WADDINGTON: barriers, one that's probably very
EMILY WADDINGTON: familiar to lots of social workers, is
EMILY WADDINGTON: feeling like you might not have enough
EMILY WADDINGTON: time to build the kind of relationship
EMILY WADDINGTON: you want to build with the young person.
EMILY WADDINGTON: If we can build meaningful relationships
EMILY WADDINGTON: with young people, I think it's going to
EMILY WADDINGTON: be a lot easier for us to get and hear
EMILY WADDINGTON: the voice of the young person.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And another barrier sometimes is that, on
EMILY WADDINGTON: a human level, I think sometimes
EMILY WADDINGTON: professionals can struggle to understand
EMILY WADDINGTON: that abuse is going on.
EMILY WADDINGTON: It's a difficult and unpleasant thing to
EMILY WADDINGTON: think about, so professionals have to
EMILY WADDINGTON: work really hard to make sure we're open
EMILY WADDINGTON: to hearing what the child has got to say,
EMILY WADDINGTON: to trusting it and really placing value
EMILY WADDINGTON: in it, as well.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Absolutely, Emily. Just to jump in
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: there, you make an excellent point
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: about the time, you know, and I think
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the relationship building, building
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: that rapport. And even if you do have
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: time, I think in particularly complex
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: cases, whether it's sexual abuse cases,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: it could take a lot of relationship
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: building and trust building for a child
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to feel safe to open up
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and to really hear that child's voice.
JULIAN FABIAN: Okay, so a range of things that might get in
JULIAN FABIAN: the way of us hearing the voice of the
JULIAN FABIAN: child, whether it's a disability or some
JULIAN FABIAN: medical barrier, whether it's time
JULIAN FABIAN: constraints, whether it's parents or
JULIAN FABIAN: carers having a worry in terms of allowing
JULIAN FABIAN: access to the child, whether it's a child
JULIAN FABIAN: having a worry. So a range of things that
JULIAN FABIAN: maybe need a range of solutions and we can
JULIAN FABIAN: come on to talk about those in a minute.
JULIAN FABIAN: One of the things I noticed you talked about
JULIAN FABIAN: was about children speaking, or
JULIAN FABIAN: being pre-speaking or non-speaking.
JULIAN FABIAN: I think the previous language we used was
JULIAN FABIAN: pre-verbal, verbal and non-verbal.
JULIAN FABIAN: So I'm interested if you could talk a little
JULIAN FABIAN: bit about the the rationale for the change
JULIAN FABIAN: in language and why that might be helpful.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: The language has quite correctly
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: changed because a lot of children who
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: are who would have been considered
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: non-verbal now can communicate and
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: actually verbalise their feelings
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: through other means, really, so they
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: can speak.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: For instance, I suppose a good example
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: of this would be, augmentative
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication, where some disabled
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: children, for instance, would use high
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: tech devices to communicate.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: There's also things like communication books,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: simple communication, right down
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to your kind of your simple makaton,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: stuff like that. So I think we've made
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: a lot of advances.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So we've moved on and quite rightly,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the terminology has moved on along with
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: that.
JULIAN FABIAN: So we want to move away from language that
JULIAN FABIAN: might potentially be stigmatising or exclude
JULIAN FABIAN: children.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah. And I think that helps
EMILY WADDINGTON: professionals to be a bit more open as
EMILY WADDINGTON: well, doesn't it? Because we're not just
EMILY WADDINGTON: thinking about the verbal communication.
EMILY WADDINGTON: When we change the language, as
EMILY WADDINGTON: professionals you become more open to
EMILY WADDINGTON: seeing many other forms of communication,
EMILY WADDINGTON: which is totally necessary to help us
EMILY WADDINGTON: gather as much information from as many
EMILY WADDINGTON: different means as possible about, you
EMILY WADDINGTON: know, the voice of the young person, to
EMILY WADDINGTON: really help us understand.
JULIAN FABIAN: It's thinking that if we get our language
JULIAN FABIAN: right, we get our thinking right.
JULIAN FABIAN: If we get our thinking right, that affects
JULIAN FABIAN: our practice in terms of improving outcomes
JULIAN FABIAN: for children.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And I suppose that adds to the point
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: where communication is not just
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: language and speaking, you know.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: It's behaviour.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Just what's sprung to my mind, it's why
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: observations of behaviour are perhaps
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: key and so important in communication.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Just observing the interactions,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the behaviour of the child, how they
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: feel, how they interact with perhaps an
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: adult, the adults around them, how they
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: interact in different environments, how
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: they interact in a school setting or
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: a home setting, or while
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: in dad's care as opposed to while in
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: mum's care, and what those environmental
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: behaviours are telling us about a
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child's communication and their wishes
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and feelings.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: How do they inform us as our social
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: workers? How do they inform our
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment? How do they inform our work
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: plan going forward, and how we conduct
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: our intervention and how we engage that
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child moving forward as our work
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: progresses?
EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah. Damien, I think you're totally
EMILY WADDINGTON: right and there's so many valid points in
EMILY WADDINGTON: there. One thing that I really love and
EMILY WADDINGTON: think is so important about considering
EMILY WADDINGTON: other forms of communication outside of
EMILY WADDINGTON: speaking, is it's something about perhaps
EMILY WADDINGTON: taking off the pressure and
EMILY WADDINGTON: responsibility of a young person to say
EMILY WADDINGTON: something out loud which can just feel so
EMILY WADDINGTON: incredibly scary.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Quite often we might have young people
EMILY WADDINGTON: who are being abused who feel a sense of
EMILY WADDINGTON: loyalty towards the person who is
EMILY WADDINGTON: perpetrating the abuse.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And if we can be open to seeing and
EMILY WADDINGTON: hearing other forms of communication, we
EMILY WADDINGTON: can almost take some pressure or
EMILY WADDINGTON: responsibility of that young person.
EMILY WADDINGTON: So it's not, "why didn't you tell us?"
EMILY WADDINGTON: It's "why didn't we look?
EMILY WADDINGTON: How can we see more what you're trying to
EMILY WADDINGTON: tell us?" And I think that's so
EMILY WADDINGTON: important.
JULIAN FABIAN: It feels we're now moving on, having laid
JULIAN FABIAN: the foundations of what the voice of the
JULIAN FABIAN: child is and why it's important and how we
JULIAN FABIAN: talk about children and the voice of child,
JULIAN FABIAN: to thinking about what that looks like in
JULIAN FABIAN: practice. I'm interested in, if I saw
JULIAN FABIAN: you 'doing' the voice of child in social
JULIAN FABIAN: work practice, what might that look like
JULIAN FABIAN: practically?
EMILY WADDINGTON: So I used to work in a team where we
EMILY WADDINGTON: would have...
EMILY WADDINGTON: If there was a professionals meeting, so
EMILY WADDINGTON: if it was a case of families and young
EMILY WADDINGTON: people not being invited to that meeting,
EMILY WADDINGTON: we would have a professional act as the
EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child in that meeting.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And that was so powerful.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Everyone would go around and give their
EMILY WADDINGTON: updates and their professional opinion,
EMILY WADDINGTON: and then the person who was acting as the
EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child would give a summary,
EMILY WADDINGTON: talk about how they think that might have
EMILY WADDINGTON: felt for the young person, what they
EMILY WADDINGTON: might need, what their experiences are.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And this was so powerful.
EMILY WADDINGTON: It meant the voice of the young person
EMILY WADDINGTON: had the same amount of time, the same
EMILY WADDINGTON: weight, the same value as what everyone
EMILY WADDINGTON: else was saying in the meeting.
EMILY WADDINGTON: But also for me personally, when I was in
EMILY WADDINGTON: that role, I found it very emotional,
EMILY WADDINGTON: sometimes quite draining, and that was
EMILY WADDINGTON: also such useful information as well.
EMILY WADDINGTON: It helped me to maybe understand the
EMILY WADDINGTON: young person I was working with a bit
EMILY WADDINGTON: more, try to put them in context,
EMILY WADDINGTON: increased empathy, increased
EMILY WADDINGTON: understanding for them.
EMILY WADDINGTON: That's something I've done in meetings
EMILY WADDINGTON: before, and I found to be really, really
EMILY WADDINGTON: powerful and really useful.
JULIAN FABIAN: So there's something about how that helped
JULIAN FABIAN: to keep the voice of the child or
JULIAN FABIAN: their lived experience, their world, front
JULIAN FABIAN: and centre to your thinking, and your
JULIAN FABIAN: assessment and your intervention.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Absolutely. And I think it's also
EMILY WADDINGTON: important just to add in that where we've
EMILY WADDINGTON: got meetings with the young person and
EMILY WADDINGTON: the family there we want to give them
EMILY WADDINGTON: that space. Maybe prepare them in advance
EMILY WADDINGTON: about what they might want to say, but
EMILY WADDINGTON: making sure where there's those meetings
EMILY WADDINGTON: where the young person can't be present,
EMILY WADDINGTON: that we're still giving them space, room
EMILY WADDINGTON: and real validity in those meetings.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I agree. It's very much about treating
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the child like they're an expert in
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: their own life, really, and about
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: including them in all of the work,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: whether it is your assessments,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: your work plans, your desired outcomes,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and at every point in your
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: intervention, perhaps getting the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child's views on that piece of work.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: As a consultant social worker reviewing
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: casework, some of the most impressive
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: cases are those where the practitioner
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: will actually sit with the child, go
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: through their assessment point-by-point,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and get the child's views about that
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: point, whether it's a risk or whether
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: it's a desired outcome.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And all of that can be directly linked
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to the work plan then.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Any of the cases that I would deem
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outstanding will have that voice of the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child element in them from the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: beginning of the case right towards the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: end. And at every junction of the case
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: where the child is actually, kind of,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: almost consulted and collaborated in
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: all of the work, and can actually
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: direct the work to an extent to
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: meet a need that they've identified
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: themselves. As I say, treating the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child like an expert in their own
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: lives, you know.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: What I would say practically too, in
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: casework, because of what we've just
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: said — about the many barriers, for
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: instance, the many types of
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication — is it's always good to
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: consult a fellow professional, whether
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: it's a speech and language expert or a
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: teacher at school or someone else that
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: will have a greater degree of
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: knowledge in how to best communicate
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: with that child or a parent.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So taking on board that and learning
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: new skills as you go along in your
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: work. So an almost, kind of. Reflection
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and action aspect about it.
EMILY WADDINGTON: I love how you describe that.
EMILY WADDINGTON: That's so, I think, humble from a
EMILY WADDINGTON: professional point of view.
EMILY WADDINGTON: So you're going in to see this young
EMILY WADDINGTON: person. Who else knows this young person?
EMILY WADDINGTON: How can they help you build a
EMILY WADDINGTON: relationship with them, which is great,
EMILY WADDINGTON: but also about them being the expert in
EMILY WADDINGTON: their own lives? I think that comes
EMILY WADDINGTON: through so strongly in how you talk,
EMILY WADDINGTON: Damien, but especially when we're
EMILY WADDINGTON: thinking about about the voice of the child,
EMILY WADDINGTON: it's always got to be about that
EMILY WADDINGTON: collaboration and that informing the work
EMILY WADDINGTON: that we do, rather than is excluding the
EMILY WADDINGTON: child from this completely thinking we
EMILY WADDINGTON: know best, which is much more damaging,
EMILY WADDINGTON: unhelpful and ultimately ineffective.
EMILY WADDINGTON: I think it's how I've described it.
EMILY WADDINGTON: It's really helpful.
JULIAN FABIAN: So where you as a social worker aren't able
JULIAN FABIAN: to sit in the room with a child — because I
JULIAN FABIAN: think the example you gave Damien was really
JULIAN FABIAN: helpful about the the worker sitting in the
JULIAN FABIAN: room with the child and speaking to him and
JULIAN FABIAN: listening to him. Where that's physically
JULIAN FABIAN: not possible, what might capturing the voice
JULIAN FABIAN: of the child look like in social work
JULIAN FABIAN: practice?
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: For me, observation is key.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: What immediately would spring to mind
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: is perhaps an unborn child, if you're
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: working with a pregnant mum, for
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: instance. So a lot of observation about
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the preparation for the unborn child,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the level of support of both parents
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and how they talk about the unborn
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child. So all are indicators.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: You can indicate what would be safe for
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: this child, what is good for this child
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and what this child wants. Ultimately
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: what the... If we're talking about an
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: unborn child, they want to arrive into
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: a safe, secure and happy environment,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you know. And a lot of your
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: observations, as a practitioner,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you will have a fair amount of
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: indicators of that, that you can then
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: build into your analysis to paint a
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: picture.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Yeah, I think for me it's about getting
EMILY WADDINGTON: those observations where you can.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And also I think trying to offer
EMILY WADDINGTON: different means of communication, like if
EMILY WADDINGTON: you can't be there in person talking
EMILY WADDINGTON: to the young person. I've had young
EMILY WADDINGTON: people who might find video calls maybe a
EMILY WADDINGTON: bit overwhelming or a bit frightening.
EMILY WADDINGTON: So they prefer a voice call, or they
EMILY WADDINGTON: might prefer to even text sometimes —
EMILY WADDINGTON: which is, I think can be limiting in
EMILY WADDINGTON: terms of what we can get. But there's
EMILY WADDINGTON: something about having a conversation
EMILY WADDINGTON: with that young person about what is the
EMILY WADDINGTON: best way for us to communicate with you.
EMILY WADDINGTON: I really want to hear what's going on for
EMILY WADDINGTON: you, what feels easiest and
EMILY WADDINGTON: and most helpful and most meaningful to
EMILY WADDINGTON: each young person.
JULIAN FABIAN: Thanks, Emily. That's helpful.
JULIAN FABIAN: The other thing that popped into my head was
JULIAN FABIAN: something that Damien referenced helpfully
JULIAN FABIAN: around biases.
JULIAN FABIAN: And I think some people might say, "well,
JULIAN FABIAN: hang on a minute. I'm a qualified
JULIAN FABIAN: professional social worker.
JULIAN FABIAN: I'm aware of myself as an individual.
JULIAN FABIAN: I don't have any biases or they don't
JULIAN FABIAN: influence me." But I'm interested what
JULIAN FABIAN: the biases we might carry in terms of
JULIAN FABIAN: working with the voice of a child and how we
JULIAN FABIAN: might manage those or attend to those so
JULIAN FABIAN: they don't get in the way.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think reflection is the key word, you
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: know. Just reflect on our practice,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: reflect on our feelings, reflect on our
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assumptions. Use supervision, I think,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to discuss any biases,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: as we all have them.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So I think it's about understanding the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child's identity, the child's
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: background and factoring into
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: your reflections any biases you will
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: have regarding identity, cultural
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: background, sexuality, any of that.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And using the supervision process to
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: tease all of that out and reflect on
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: that.
EMILY WADDINGTON: It's something that we actually need to
EMILY WADDINGTON: own, that we do have biases.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Because once we do that, we can engage
EMILY WADDINGTON: much more effectively and honestly in all
EMILY WADDINGTON: the things Damien is talking about.
EMILY WADDINGTON: So once we can say, "do you know what,
EMILY WADDINGTON: this is something that I sometimes trip
EMILY WADDINGTON: up on or a bias that I hold", we
EMILY WADDINGTON: can then take that to supervision and
EMILY WADDINGTON: talk about it in a place that feels safe
EMILY WADDINGTON: and much more constructive.
EMILY WADDINGTON: But yeah, I think for me, reflection has
EMILY WADDINGTON: got to be the most important place to be.
JULIAN FABIAN: Yeah, that's helpful. So there's something
JULIAN FABIAN: about being self-aware, and about working
JULIAN FABIAN: in an environment of high support and high
JULIAN FABIAN: challenge, and to make sure biases are
JULIAN FABIAN: brought to light and managed.
JULIAN FABIAN: So we've referenced, in passing, record
JULIAN FABIAN: keeping. But I wanted to spend a little time
JULIAN FABIAN: thinking about the records we keep, and
JULIAN FABIAN: particularly what the voice of a child might
JULIAN FABIAN: look like in good record keeping, but also
JULIAN FABIAN: why that's important.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think record keeping is extremely
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: important. What springs to mind is
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: perhaps a child brought up in the care
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: system, or a looked after child, who
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: request their records.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: What you've got to think as a child
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: care professional, as a social worker,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: is what will these records tell this
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child? What are they going to look like
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: when the child requests these records
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and looks back and wants to know about
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: their life and their identity and the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: really, really, really crucial and
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: important decisions that have impacted
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: on their life.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think the records need to be
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: accurate. The language needs to be
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: thought about. They need to be quite
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: transparent towards the child.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And I think that's why things like the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: voice of the child needs to be threaded
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: throughout our records so that the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child can see on a page
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: their life, you know. What they've
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: contributed to their life, how their
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: wishes and feelings were respected, how
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: decisions were made with them included
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: in the decision-making process.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And the rationale is built into the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: records that any decisions that were
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: made were made in the child's best
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: interests, and that is evident when
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: they're reading them retrospectively.
EMILY WADDINGTON: The other things that I would add in
EMILY WADDINGTON: terms of recording, and making sure we
EMILY WADDINGTON: are getting the voice of the child in
EMILY WADDINGTON: recording, is having prompts.
EMILY WADDINGTON: I find prompts on systems useful to talk
EMILY WADDINGTON: about — what did you observe —
EMILY WADDINGTON: as a little reminder that we're expanding
EMILY WADDINGTON: out beyond what has a child said.
EMILY WADDINGTON: What have we seen?
EMILY WADDINGTON: What have we observed? What do we think
EMILY WADDINGTON: that means? So I think having those
EMILY WADDINGTON: prompts feels really useful.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Again, we're talking about young people
EMILY WADDINGTON: accessing records, which is so important.
EMILY WADDINGTON: We hold so much information that is
EMILY WADDINGTON: really sensitive, intimate, personal
EMILY WADDINGTON: to that young person.
EMILY WADDINGTON: So we really need to be showing that
EMILY WADDINGTON: we've made every effort to that young
EMILY WADDINGTON: person to really understand what was
EMILY WADDINGTON: going on for them, and to really show how
EMILY WADDINGTON: hard we have tried to make things happen
EMILY WADDINGTON: in their best interests.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And again, just going back to the bit
EMILY WADDINGTON: about observations, there is something
EMILY WADDINGTON: for me about writing in a way that makes
EMILY WADDINGTON: sure we don't, again, place that burden
EMILY WADDINGTON: or responsibility on the young person to
EMILY WADDINGTON: tell us everything. Tell us about, you
EMILY WADDINGTON: know, these scary things that are
EMILY WADDINGTON: happening. And we need to be really
EMILY WADDINGTON: careful when we're wording that in our
EMILY WADDINGTON: recording. So it's not that just because
EMILY WADDINGTON: the child hasn't said something doesn't
EMILY WADDINGTON: necessarily mean that everything is fine.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Our openness to other forms of communication
EMILY WADDINGTON: and reflecting that in recording really
EMILY WADDINGTON: shows we're working with the young
EMILY WADDINGTON: person, and I think reduces
EMILY WADDINGTON: responsibility and pressure on them to
EMILY WADDINGTON: have been the ones who are keeping
EMILY WADDINGTON: themselves safe. When, actually, that's
EMILY WADDINGTON: the job of professionals and parents and
EMILY WADDINGTON: families.
JULIAN FABIAN: There is something important also by
JULIAN FABIAN: the sounds of it about capturing exactly
JULIAN FABIAN: what children say on their records, using
JULIAN FABIAN: their actual words.
JULIAN FABIAN: And then when we make the jump between what
JULIAN FABIAN: they say and what that might mean, and being
JULIAN FABIAN: aware of our biases in terms of how we
JULIAN FABIAN: interpret that and therefore what we do
JULIAN FABIAN: about that. The other thing I'm interested
JULIAN FABIAN: in is, going back to the issue of
JULIAN FABIAN: assessments, why the voice of the child is
JULIAN FABIAN: so important to assessments.
JULIAN FABIAN: Or, another way, what's the impact of having
JULIAN FABIAN: the child's voice central to your
JULIAN FABIAN: assessment?
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: I think it's really, really important
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: in terms of... Depending what the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment or the focus of the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment is. Speaking to the child
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: alone, I think is a crucial element to
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: any assessment so that you can kind of
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: ascertain their wishes and feelings
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: about a particular subject.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Very much a child will get to the nib
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: of a problem and give you their interpretation
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: of it, you know. I suppose what's key,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: what is a key issue, it's really
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: important what questions you ask the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: child as well.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So what are you asking them, and what
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: are you asking of them, and what's your
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: observation of their response can
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: inform your assessment in great detail
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and ultimately lead to a clearer
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outcome.
JULIAN FABIAN: So there's something about perhaps the
JULIAN FABIAN: language you use when we ask questions of
JULIAN FABIAN: children, so it's clear and understandable
JULIAN FABIAN: and accessible.
JULIAN FABIAN: But also perhaps there's something about
JULIAN FABIAN: ensuring we're not leading them somewhere
JULIAN FABIAN: they may not want to go.
JULIAN FABIAN: So, not providing them with questions that
JULIAN FABIAN: almost assume the outcome, assume the
JULIAN FABIAN: answer. So we're being as clear and
JULIAN FABIAN: transparent and open to their voice
JULIAN FABIAN: as possible.
EMILY WADDINGTON: I do sometimes think where it feels age
EMILY WADDINGTON: appropriate, there's something about
EMILY WADDINGTON: context as well.
EMILY WADDINGTON: I've worked with young people who have
EMILY WADDINGTON: said, you know, "last time I said
EMILY WADDINGTON: something to a social worker, they took
EMILY WADDINGTON: it out of context and they wrote it down,
EMILY WADDINGTON: and all these things happened that
EMILY WADDINGTON: suddenly felt out of control, or I wasn't
EMILY WADDINGTON: being heard or listened to." So I do
EMILY WADDINGTON: think where it's age appropriate.
EMILY WADDINGTON: We can talk to young people about, you
EMILY WADDINGTON: know, the context and maybe sometimes why
EMILY WADDINGTON: we're asking those questions, what we're
EMILY WADDINGTON: looking to learn and how it might inform
EMILY WADDINGTON: how we try to help or support the family.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And then, in terms of the importance of a
EMILY WADDINGTON: child's voice in an assessment, I don't
EMILY WADDINGTON: think we can get an assessment right
EMILY WADDINGTON: without the child's voice.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Everything that Damien said about a child
EMILY WADDINGTON: being an expert in their own world, we
EMILY WADDINGTON: can't understand their experience, their
EMILY WADDINGTON: wants, their wishes without the child's
EMILY WADDINGTON: voice. And then if we get the child's
EMILY WADDINGTON: voice and we listen to it, I think we
EMILY WADDINGTON: really increase the likelihood that we
EMILY WADDINGTON: can create positive change for a young
EMILY WADDINGTON: person and their family.
EMILY WADDINGTON: You know, are we offering intervention
EMILY WADDINGTON: that meets the child's or young person's
EMILY WADDINGTON: needs? Is it what they want to happen?
EMILY WADDINGTON: And also does it offer validity?
EMILY WADDINGTON: Sometimes there might be disagreement
EMILY WADDINGTON: about what a young person needs or about
EMILY WADDINGTON: what intervention would be useful.
EMILY WADDINGTON: But actually, if we can say, you know,
EMILY WADDINGTON: this is what we think the young person
EMILY WADDINGTON: wants based on what we've seen, what
EMILY WADDINGTON: we've heard, what we've observed, I think
EMILY WADDINGTON: it really makes the whole assessment more robust
EMILY WADDINGTON: when we've got and the person's voice
EMILY WADDINGTON: running all the way through it.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Just to jump on that a little bit,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Emily, is the demonstrating
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: to the child, kind of, you said, we
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: did. "You said this, this is the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: outcome of our assessment, you know,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: which was directly influenced by you."
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So I suppose promoting that trustful
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: relationship, you know. This was your
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: voice. This was the impact of your
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: voice. And this is the outcome of my
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: assessment. And it's quite evident that
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: you're a very, very important person in
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: this assessment process, and you have
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: influenced it.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Absolutely.
EMILY WADDINGTON: The assessment is the first part of the
EMILY WADDINGTON: relationship with the young person.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And if we can build trust and show their
EMILY WADDINGTON: importance there, that really sets the
EMILY WADDINGTON: scene.
JULIAN FABIAN: And practically, thinking about how we close
JULIAN FABIAN: the loop, that can include: we ask questions
JULIAN FABIAN: of them or we have a discussion; they give
JULIAN FABIAN: some feedback; and then there's how we share
JULIAN FABIAN: our information with them to check is fair
JULIAN FABIAN: and accurate, to check we haven't been
JULIAN FABIAN: influenced by our biases, to engage and
JULIAN FABIAN: empower the young person that they feel part
JULIAN FABIAN: of the process and that it's representative.
JULIAN FABIAN: So we close the loop in terms of capturing
JULIAN FABIAN: the voice of the child accurately.
JULIAN FABIAN: So finally, what I would like to ask the
JULIAN FABIAN: both of you is: what's the one key takeaway
JULIAN FABIAN: you'd want to leave listeners with in terms
JULIAN FABIAN: of the voice of the child in social work
JULIAN FABIAN: practice?
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Mine would be not to get caught up on
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: adult issues. You know, we do have
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: biases. We do have relationships with
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: adults. We have all of these various
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: pressures in work and families.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: And I think my one key takeaway would
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: be go straight to the heart of the
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: matter and go straight to the child,
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: and there is a font of knowledge
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: waiting right there in your level of
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: communication with the child. As we've
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: discussed earlier, that child might
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: be non-speaking, there could be
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: learning disability, but there's ways
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: around that and there's ways to capture
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: the child's wishes and feelings.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: So go straight to the child I would say
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: would be my one take away.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Oh, I just so want to squeeze two in.
JULIAN FABIAN: I can allow you two.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Very generous, thank you.
EMILY WADDINGTON: So my first one is to remember that the
EMILY WADDINGTON: voice of the child is more than just
EMILY WADDINGTON: speaking.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Please look. Please observe.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Write down what you see, think about what
EMILY WADDINGTON: it might mean, and consider that together
EMILY WADDINGTON: with something speaking, if that's
EMILY WADDINGTON: available to you.
EMILY WADDINGTON: And then my second point is just to
EMILY WADDINGTON: borrow from Damien, which is that the
EMILY WADDINGTON: child is the expert in their own world.
EMILY WADDINGTON: I think if you use that as a guiding
EMILY WADDINGTON: principle, you are going to work really
EMILY WADDINGTON: hard to capture the voice of the child in
EMILY WADDINGTON: a really meaningful way for the rest of
EMILY WADDINGTON: your work as well.
JULIAN FABIAN: Great. Thanks Damien and Emily.
JULIAN FABIAN: It's been really good to have you with me
JULIAN FABIAN: today to explore the key issue of voice
JULIAN FABIAN: of the child in social work practice.
JULIAN FABIAN: I think it will be really helpful to our
JULIAN FABIAN: audience. So thanks for being with us.
DAMIEN FITZPATRICK: Thank you very much, Julian.
EMILY WADDINGTON: Thanks, Julian. Thanks, Damien.
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