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Hi, I'm Ed Slott and I'm Jeff Levine.

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And we're two guys who just love
to talk about retirement and taxes.

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Look, our mission is simple to educate
you, the saver, so that you can make

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better decisions because better decisions
on the whole lead to better outcomes.

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And here's how we're going to do that.

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Each week, Jeff and I will debate
the pros and the cons of a particular

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retirement strategy or topic.

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With the goal of helping you keep
more of your hard earned money.

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At the end of each debate There's
going to be one clear winner You a more

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informed saver who can hopefully apply
the merits of each side of the debate

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to your own personal situation To decide
what's best for you and your family.

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So here we go.

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Welcome to the Great Retirement
Debate All right, Ed welcome back.

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We're back for season three of the
great retirement debate That's right.

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So what are we kicking it off with?

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We've got an interesting topic today.

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One for discussion.

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We're going to talk about what's
the single biggest mistake retirees

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make besides retiring besides that.

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So you know what?

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That is a fair point.

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Like maybe retiring is indeed a
mistake for some people, but all

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right, let's, let's, let's get out.

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Let's get right to it.

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Ed, we got.

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You know, Season 3, let's
get right into the meat.

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What's, in your opinion, the single
biggest mistake that retirees make?

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Well, I had three, but if I had to
pick one, paying too much in taxes.

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I'm shocked.

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Shocked, I tell you.

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Look at the, look at the
sense of shock on my face.

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All right.

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So, paying too much in taxes.

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What are the other two, out of curiosity?

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Well, uh, beneficiary forms
and rollover mistakes.

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Okay.

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All right.

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What would you have picked?

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Uh, overconfidence.

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Overconfidence.

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Overconfidence.

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I'll unwrap that later.

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I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna leave our
listeners on the edge of their seat

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for a little bit while we unpack taxes.

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So taxes, you say, are the single biggest
mistake overpaying taxes in retirement.

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Give us some more.

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Because we're trained.

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With RMDs, they keep pushing the age back.

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Now it's 73.

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Just keep putting it
off and putting it off.

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But, the account doesn't stop growing,
all of a sudden you've, you're putting

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it off, you're putting it off, and
the account is growing, and I'm

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worried about future higher taxes if
Congress ever does anything about it.

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I've been saying that for years, and
they've never done anything about it.

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Well, they've helped grow it.

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create more of a problem by lowering taxes
even more right but i don't think taxes

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will ever be lower so the biggest mistake
is not using up all the brackets leaving

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money on the table in the 12 22 24 low
percent brackets because they just want

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to take the bare minimum when they're
At RMD age, say at age 73, and not doing

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anything before that, even though they may
be retired, because they don't have to.

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Yeah, I certainly agree that Congress
has, has given everybody what they call a

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break, but it's not really a break, right?

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If people push off those RMDs,
it could create a larger problem.

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You know, your comments there reminded
me of two things I'm fond of saying.

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One is, Your goal shouldn't be to create
the lowest tax bill in any one year,

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but to create the lowest lifetime tax.

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That's the winner of the game, right?

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And actually with retirement
accounts, sometimes we have to go

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beyond the lowest lifetime tax bill.

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Sometimes it's the lowest multi
generational tax bill because that tax

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liability on like a brokerage account
doesn't go away when someone dies, right?

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It goes to the beneficiary.

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The other thing it reminded me
of is, uh, when we're looking at

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individuals, right, and they're
so happy they paid no tax, right?

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Like, oh, I paid no taxes here.

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Yeah, it means you didn't
use any of the brackets.

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That's right.

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When I, when I meet someone not, and look,
there are a lot of people in this country

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who are, who are working, who, uh, because
of the way our tax system works, they,

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they don't earn enough to pay any tax.

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And that's fine.

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Like that's one set of individuals, but
there are a lot of other people with,

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uh, Substantial wealth who still look
to try and pay as little as possible.

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And when I meet one of those
individuals who looks to me and says,

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Hey, I paid almost no tax last year.

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You know, they're, they're
thinking like, Oh, that's a CPA.

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He's gonna be so proud of me.

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I look and say, I'm so sorry.

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You got some bad advice.

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Yeah, right.

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Why would you do that?

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Uh, you're right.

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Like, it's all about timing, right?

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And we should sometimes bringing
forward some income paying

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sooner rather than later.

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Means helping to create that
lowest lifetime tax bill.

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Yeah, they leave so much money on the
table overall Like you said not only

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during lifetime But then you have the
ten years to beneficiaries who may be in

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their own highest earning years and the
last thing they want is a big tax bill

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Given they're getting an inheritance.

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No one's crying the blues for them, right?

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Like it's a, I always think about that.

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The beneficiary, I call
it like crisis planning.

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Cause the beneficiaries got the money.

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Like, what do you do now?

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But I always have to remind myself,
like if you run into the office going,

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I just inherited a million dollars.

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What do I, it's like, it's not the
world's biggest crisis, but you're right.

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Taxes are a big play.

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What are some other areas with
beyond, let's say just the

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retirement account distributions.

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What are some other areas
where you typically find.

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You know, retirees overpaying in taxes.

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Well, they don't do Roth
conversions ahead of time.

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When they could have, and you
can still do it after RMD age,

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required minimum distributions at
age 73, but they cost more then

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because you can't convert the RMD.

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So, they miss out on those great years
in their 60s where they should be sort

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of dollar cost averaging or whatever you
want to call it into a Roth a little at

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a time to use the brackets every year.

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Yeah, and of course, any of
those conversions done at 62

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or earlier would also avoid any
of those Medicare surcharges.

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A lot of people, once they reach 65, they
go on Medicare, and Medicare, because

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our system is very complicated, and
people like you and I need jobs, Ed.

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It looks back two years at your income.

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So if you are converting when you're
63, that can actually impact your

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Medicare premiums when you're 65,
which a lot of people don't consider.

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So effectively, converting before
63 gets you out of that, no

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matter how high your income is.

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Right, but people don't look at that.

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You know, the Medicare surcharge
item is one of the really tricky

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planning items for two reasons.

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The Medicare charges don't show up on
your tax return, off the tax return,

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and the other item, very hard to
plan with the two year look back.

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So what are some other areas
behind, let's, let's move away from

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retirement accounts for a second.

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Anything else, because, you know, I know
you're not sitting down doing returns for

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a lot of people anymore, but you spent
decades, you know, preparing returns for

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folks, most of them in retirement, or at
least many of them in retirement, What

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were some other mistakes that you saw that
typically led individuals in retirement

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to pay more tax than they should?

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Not keeping track of basis.

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What I mean, non deductible
contributions for years.

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Some people made non deductible
contributions, and even before the law

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changed many years ago, had rollovers
of after tax funds from company plans.

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They had What we call basis already tax
money that they're not filing form 8606.

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That's a form you file to take credit
for money you already paid tax on.

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So if you're just paying full tax
on your distribution, in essence,

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for part of that, you're paying
tax twice on the same money.

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Absolutely.

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You know, and I look at it, I think.

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Another area, if we shift away from
retirement accounts for a second,

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a lot of people find themselves in
that 0 percent long term capital

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gains bracket when they retire.

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Because it takes a lot of income now
to, to, to be out of that, right?

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If we look at, let's say, a
married couple and they're in

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retirement, they're probably over 65.

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So not only are they getting the
standard deduction, they're getting

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the quote unquote additional standard
deductions, which even today means

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they have well over a thirty-thousand
dollar standard deduction.

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The 0 percent long term capital
gains bracket is up to the 12 percent

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ordinary income tax rate, which today
is about 95, 000 for married couples.

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So you put those two things together.

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What you find is a married couple,
even if they have $125,000 of income

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in retirement, if they just take the
standard deduction, they're still

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right at the top of that 0 percent
long term capital gains bracket.

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And most retirees don't have
$125,000 of income a year.

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Which means they're below
that 0 percent threshold.

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For people listening, what I'm trying
to get at here is if you're in a

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0 percent long term capital gains
bracket, you can sell your appreciated

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stocks and your brokerage account.

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Uh, and you might say, but
Jeff, they've gone up in value.

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I like them that they've appreciated.

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That's why I like them so much.

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Fine.

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Then sell them and then.

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Wait, you know a day or so and buy
them right back If you sell at the zero

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percent long term capital gains bracket,
you're paying zero percent All right.

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I want to get back to the over over
confidence because you left them hanging.

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Okay, but before that Just a warning
on that 0 percent capital gains rate.

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Many people see it on the tax
tables but don't get it because our

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tax system works in a funny way.

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Ordinary income gets taxed
first and eats into that.

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That's right.

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So many people look at that and
say, How come I didn't get the 0%?

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Yeah, so if you're thinking
about, Hey, does this apply to me?

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What you really want to do is take all of
your regular income, the amount of your

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social security that's taxable, your IRA
distributions, your interest and whatnot.

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And then on top of that, Uh, you
want to layer in how much in, in

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long term capital gains and, uh,
qualified dividends do I have?

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And if total, those dollars are, for
a married couple this year in 2024,

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below about $125,000, you can look
specifically at your own standard

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deduction, et cetera, if you're over 65
or under 65, but about $125,000, if the

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total amount of that income is below,
then those long term capital gains

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and qualified dividends will be at 0%.

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And worst case scenario, 15%.

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Not the worst thing in the world.

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Not the worst thing in the world, indeed.

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Alright, overconfidence, um, hanging on.

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I'm confident that I'm going to get there,
but you did mention two other things.

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So I want to make sure that we don't
leave listeners hanging on that.

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You mentioned beneficiary forms.

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I'll do it quickly and we'll
cover it on another episode.

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People don't check beneficiary forms.

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All right, so do that.

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Worst mistakes ever.

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That'll be a separate, separate one.

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All right.

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Wrong people get the money.

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Uh, I'll tease you for a future episode.

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We just had a case where an ex
girlfriend got over a million dollars

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and he broke up with her in 1989.

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All right?

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I'll leave you hanging on that one.

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And rollover mistakes.

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People don't know how to move
money from one IRA to another and

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a lot of times it's the fault of
the advisor or the institution

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where they just get bad advice.

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Oh, overconfidence.

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Alright, overconfidence.

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So, to me, overconfidence is
probably the single biggest risk

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retirees face because there's so
much you can be overconfident about.

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You can be overconfident about, you know,
When you're going to retire, if we look at

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the research, people think they are often
going to work longer than they will, so

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they factor in, you know, too many years
of earnings, and then they get to that

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point, and they go, I guess I can't work
anymore, or we're in another scenario

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where they're overconfident that the
market will do really, really well, right?

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They say, Oh, my goodness, the market,
it's just going to continue going this

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good forever, or they're overconfident
that the market will not do well.

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Right.

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And they say it's just
never gonna be the same.

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It's not like it was when I was a kid.

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There's so many things.

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The reality is None of us have any real
clue what's going to happen in the future.

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So, for me, retirees who continuously
monitor their plans, retirees who

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are open to the fact that they don't
control everything, they can control

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their reactions to things, and they can,
uh, Uh, they can continuously monitor

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things like interest rates and inflation
and their spending and their health

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and make constant course corrections.

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Those are the individuals, I think,
who do best of all, but anytime

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you're overconfident in any area,
it seems to always come back

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and smack you in the face later.

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Well, except for Roth IRAs.

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I'm overconfident.

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That's the best single account to own.

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And with that

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With that, you, so, all right, well, With
that, I was trying to end the program.

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Oh, well, all right, well,
all right, I guess we're at

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the end of our program then.

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I was, uh, I was not as confident
as you that we had reached

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the end of our program today.

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So, thank you all for joining
us for yet another episode of

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The Great Retirement Debate.

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Ed, Always fun.

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Okay.

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Uh, I look forward to having
our next discussion soon.

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Yep.

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Jeffrey Levine is Chief Planning
Officer for Buckingham Wealth Partners.

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This podcast is for informational and
educational purposes only and should

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not be construed as specific investment,
accounting, legal, or tax advice.

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Certain information mentioned may
be based on third party information

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00:12:20,835 --> 00:12:23,415
which may become outdated or
otherwise superseded without notice.

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00:12:23,750 --> 00:12:26,960
Third party information is deemed
to be reliable but its accuracy and

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00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,370
completeness cannot be guaranteed.

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The topic discussed in corresponding
arguments are those of the speakers

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and may not accurately reflect
those of Buckingham Wealth partners.