INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we
INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection from
INTRO: inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together
INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.
NATALIE DORMER: Hello, I'm Natalie Dormer.
NATALIE DORMER: I'm an actor and producer in the world of TV
NATALIE DORMER: and film, but I'm also very proud to be a
NATALIE DORMER: Childline ambassador for the NSPCC,
NATALIE DORMER: and I've been involved with the NSPCC for the last eight years now.
NATALIE DORMER: So today I'm here on the NSPCC Learning Podcast with two teachers to
NATALIE DORMER: talk about what it's like to teach sex and
NATALIE DORMER: relationships education, some of the
NATALIE DORMER: challenges schools can face and some advice, tips and support.
NATALIE DORMER: In 2020, the Everyone's Invited
NATALIE DORMER: campaign highlighted the number of young
NATALIE DORMER: people who have experienced sexual
NATALIE DORMER: harassment and abuse in secondary schools.
NATALIE DORMER: In the same year, sex and relationships
NATALIE DORMER: education became a statutory part of
NATALIE DORMER: the curriculum in England and Wales.
NATALIE DORMER: The NSPCC recognised the need for a service
NATALIE DORMER: that supports schools and teachers to
NATALIE DORMER: confidently deliver sex and relationships
NATALIE DORMER: education, helping young people to recognise
NATALIE DORMER: healthy relationships and seek help if they need it.
NATALIE DORMER: And so in 2021, the NSPCC
NATALIE DORMER: launched Talk Relationships to support
NATALIE DORMER: secondary schools and their teachers with
NATALIE DORMER: the really quite complex and sensitive task
NATALIE DORMER: of effective sex and relationships education
NATALIE DORMER: as a vital role in the safeguarding of young people.
NATALIE DORMER: An elearning course was designed to increase
NATALIE DORMER: the skills, confidence and knowledge of
NATALIE DORMER: teachers tasked with this.
NATALIE DORMER: And a series of lesson plans was created too
NATALIE DORMER: to help teachers and schools with the big
NATALIE DORMER: questions of what is age appropriate and
NATALIE DORMER: other particular challenges in this area.
NATALIE DORMER: These are all available to you online,
NATALIE DORMER: teachers listening right now as I speak, and
NATALIE DORMER: our two guests today have had a chance to
NATALIE DORMER: look at them themselves.
NATALIE DORMER: Now, whilst designing and launching these
NATALIE DORMER: online resources, there was also a research
NATALIE DORMER: project commissioned by the NSPCC and
NATALIE DORMER: conducted by Cardiff University and UCL,
NATALIE DORMER: that surveyed young people's thoughts and
NATALIE DORMER: experiences on relationships, sex and
NATALIE DORMER: sexuality.
NATALIE DORMER: That report, titled 'We Have to Educate
NATALIE DORMER: Ourselves', had fascinating insights and
NATALIE DORMER: results that I will also touch on with my
NATALIE DORMER: two lovely teachers here today, and it's
NATALIE DORMER: available on the NSPCC Learning website
NATALIE DORMER: for you to download now.
NATALIE DORMER: So, just to say, for the purpose of today's
NATALIE DORMER: podcast, we'll use the term ‘sex and
NATALIE DORMER: relationships education’ to encompass the
NATALIE DORMER: whole range of different terms used across
NATALIE DORMER: the four nations of the UK.
NATALIE DORMER: Some of you listening will know it as RSHE
NATALIE DORMER: in England, RSHP in Scotland or RSE
NATALIE DORMER: in Wales and Northern Ireland.
NATALIE DORMER: But for our purposes, to save confusion,
NATALIE DORMER: we'll refer to it as sex and relationship
NATALIE DORMER: education. The next phase of the NSPCC's
NATALIE DORMER: Talk Relationships is looking at that
NATALIE DORMER: feedback — what young people have said — and
NATALIE DORMER: more research about how the NSPCC can really
NATALIE DORMER: help schools and teachers embed healthy
NATALIE DORMER: relationships into the wider school culture
NATALIE DORMER: and empower young people to speak up and seek help.
NATALIE DORMER: Launched this April 2024, is a new
NATALIE DORMER: whole school approach to sex and
NATALIE DORMER: relationships education as part of the Talk
NATALIE DORMER: Relationships resources, and we hope that
NATALIE DORMER: this podcast today goes some way to helping
NATALIE DORMER: start that conversation.
NATALIE DORMER: So without further ado, who better to talk
NATALIE DORMER: about these responsibilities and
NATALIE DORMER: opportunities than to hear from two teachers
NATALIE DORMER: who are actually delivering SRE, and to hear
NATALIE DORMER: them share their own experiences and
NATALIE DORMER: thoughts — two dear friends of mine that
NATALIE DORMER: I'm so grateful have taken time to join me
NATALIE DORMER: today — Pete and Sarah.
NATALIE DORMER: Guys, would you like to introduce yourselves?
PETE BASHAM: Hi, I'm Peter Basham.
PETE BASHAM: I'm a teacher of science and form tutor
PETE BASHAM: in a state-funded secondary school.
PETE BASHAM: And I deliver what we call PSHE, but is the programme.
SARAH OAKES: My name is Sarah Oakes. I work in an
SARAH OAKES: independent prep school in Dorset, and my role
SARAH OAKES: is director of performing arts.
SARAH OAKES: But on top of that, I am head of RSE and PSHE as well.
SARAH OAKES: I deliver the curriculum to my form
SARAH OAKES: as well as overseeing the curriculum for
SARAH OAKES: the whole school.
NATALIE DORMER: So I think the obvious question to start
NATALIE DORMER: with is how does SRE in your schools
NATALIE DORMER: compare to how you were taught this subject
NATALIE DORMER: when you were young?
PETE BASHAM: I think when I was young, it wasn't really a
PETE BASHAM: particularly well delivered thing.
PETE BASHAM: There wasn't a lot of
PETE BASHAM: insight into any kind of diversity or inclusion
PETE BASHAM: of anything other than what was considered
PETE BASHAM: then the norm, I guess.
PETE BASHAM: And even then it was mainly delivered in a
PETE BASHAM: biological, clinical way of just
PETE BASHAM: preventing teenage pregnancy, basically.
NATALIE DORMER: With no nod to emotional engagement.
PETE BASHAM: Yeah. None. None at all. Compared to now when
PETE BASHAM: there's a lot more around consent and around
PETE BASHAM: the emotional impact of sex.
PETE BASHAM: And I think that, yeah, in my day,
PETE BASHAM: there was none of that.
SARAH OAKES: It was all incredibly taboo, wasn't it, to even
SARAH OAKES: say the word, I think.
SARAH OAKES: And so much scaremongering, as well as just
SARAH OAKES: sort of focusing on the negative aspects of
SARAH OAKES: developing your bodies enough to want to have sex
SARAH OAKES: and all the things that come with that.
SARAH OAKES: There was certainly no emotional aspect.
SARAH OAKES: And it was all taught
SARAH OAKES: with an entirely binary approach as well.
SARAH OAKES: So the inclusivity and the diversity of the
SARAH OAKES: conversations that we managed to have now are far
SARAH OAKES: away from what I certainly experienced when I was at school.
NATALIE DORMER: But having read the survey that the NSPCC
NATALIE DORMER: commissioned, it still feels like the
NATALIE DORMER: feedback from the young people is
NATALIE DORMER: that sex and relationship education can
NATALIE DORMER: still be quite poor and patchy.
NATALIE DORMER: What I found so fascinating about the survey
NATALIE DORMER: was looking across a whole range of
NATALIE DORMER: elements from social media, popular
NATALIE DORMER: culture, peer pressure.
NATALIE DORMER: I mean, obviously social media is a massive
NATALIE DORMER: one that we'll talk about today.
NATALIE DORMER: But let's start on the positive.
NATALIE DORMER: Let's talk about some of the successes that
NATALIE DORMER: you guys have had in your experience of
NATALIE DORMER: teaching sex and relationships education.
NATALIE DORMER: Is there something that springs to mind
NATALIE DORMER: where you can cite some really positive
NATALIE DORMER: movement in this area? Sarah.
SARAH OAKES: So we've recently had a fantastic day of
SARAH OAKES: workshops — actually from an outside company —
SARAH OAKES: which is a really great way to freshen things
SARAH OAKES: up a little bit. The children have a different
SARAH OAKES: voice to listen to and some different
SARAH OAKES: activities to do. It was a day that the
SARAH OAKES: children really weren't expecting and included
SARAH OAKES: some model making of various body
SARAH OAKES: parts, which was really great fun.
SARAH OAKES: The overuse of the word vulva at the school
SARAH OAKES: that day was increased 1,000%.
SARAH OAKES: But it was a really, really fun day and just
SARAH OAKES: normalised a whole heap of things that people
SARAH OAKES: just really struggle to talk about a lot of the
SARAH OAKES: time. And everybody had a really fun time.
SARAH OAKES: And like I said, it was a different voice to
SARAH OAKES: listen to and was a really nice practical
SARAH OAKES: way of talking about things.
PETE BASHAM: In my school recently, in the last few years
PETE BASHAM: there's a big focus on EDI and the EDI coordinator—
NATALIE DORMER: EDI, Pete, tell me about it.
PETE BASHAM: Equality, diversity and inclusion.
PETE BASHAM: One of the great things about that is currently
PETE BASHAM: we've got an assistant EDI coordinator, who is
PETE BASHAM: a former student and only recently was a student.
PETE BASHAM: And he has been running talks
PETE BASHAM: on what it's like to come out as a young gay man
PETE BASHAM: in a boys' school, his experiences, and been doing whole school
PETE BASHAM: assemblies across the whole school from year
PETE BASHAM: seven all the way up. And that's been really
PETE BASHAM: interesting to see how differently students
PETE BASHAM: respond to someone who's really close to their
PETE BASHAM: age who is only just a few years
PETE BASHAM: ahead, compared to if it was someone,
PETE BASHAM: sort of coming in, who was our age.
NATALIE DORMER: Holding an authoritative— or a grown-up
NATALIE DORMER: authoritative figure, yeah. PETE BASHAM: Yeah, exactly.
PETE BASHAM: And so that's been a real success and has led
PETE BASHAM: to wider conversations in the school around
PETE BASHAM: that and how we can continue to
PETE BASHAM: grow and be as inclusive a school as we can be.
SARAH OAKES: I think social media, although it poses so many
SARAH OAKES: issues for children, I think the normalising of
SARAH OAKES: even talking about things like this is a great
SARAH OAKES: product of that. Children are much more used to
SARAH OAKES: certain terminologies and starting
SARAH OAKES: conversations about things that it becomes a
SARAH OAKES: little easier to start a conversation
SARAH OAKES: with children these days.
NATALIE DORMER: There's more peer-to-peer exchange of information.
SARAH OAKES: Absolutely. But I think they're still gleaning
SARAH OAKES: too much information from social media and
SARAH OAKES: trusting in it far too much because
SARAH OAKES: there is still stigma within schools and within
SARAH OAKES: delivering those lessons.
PETE BASHAM: Yeah. I think, in terms of what
PETE BASHAM: is working, like you say,
PETE BASHAM: the fact that the conversations are easier to
PETE BASHAM: start with the students because they already
PETE BASHAM: have a baseline knowledge, whether it's from
PETE BASHAM: social media, or from their parents or whoever,
PETE BASHAM: or from their peers. The difficulty is then
PETE BASHAM: sometimes there's misconceptions there.
PETE BASHAM: The reverse side of that is that if they've got
PETE BASHAM: the information from TikTok, who's giving them that information?
NATALIE DORMER: And I think that young people — from what I
NATALIE DORMER: read in the survey — I feel like young
NATALIE DORMER: people are aware of that.
NATALIE DORMER: They're aware to be suspicious of the resources
NATALIE DORMER: And they wish that there
NATALIE DORMER: was almost a stamp of approval that they
NATALIE DORMER: knew whether a website or a platform was
NATALIE DORMER: trustworthy in its information or not.
NATALIE DORMER: It feels like they're asking for that.
SARAH OAKES: I think they are, but I think they're still
SARAH OAKES: getting it wrong. I think there's a lot of
SARAH OAKES: influence out there that is very misguided
SARAH OAKES: and underhand, and is still leading people
SARAH OAKES: in the wrong directions; young people in the wrong directions.
NATALIE DORMER: Okay. So that's great because that's leading
NATALIE DORMER: us on to the next question, really, about
NATALIE DORMER: what you think some of the biggest
NATALIE DORMER: challenges for teachers are when delivering
NATALIE DORMER: sex and relationship education.
NATALIE DORMER: We're talking about the potential for
NATALIE DORMER: misinformation as one, for social media,
NATALIE DORMER: that teachers might be combatting.
NATALIE DORMER: What do you think, Sarah, is the
NATALIE DORMER: biggest challenge in delivering?
SARAH OAKES: The hugest challenge, I think, is having the
SARAH OAKES: confidence to open up a conversation when you
SARAH OAKES: don't know where it's going to go. Children
SARAH OAKES: will ask you absolutely anything if they're in
SARAH OAKES: a safe space to do so, which they should be in
SARAH OAKES: this scenario. And having that confidence to
SARAH OAKES: just open up a room, not knowing
SARAH OAKES: what's going to come your way. And when you're
SARAH OAKES: starting out as a teacher, often you don't know
SARAH OAKES: you're going to end up teaching PSHE.
SARAH OAKES: It's not a subject that you go to university to
SARAH OAKES: study, to then become a teacher in.
SARAH OAKES: And so many of us end up delivering those
SARAH OAKES: lessons to our forms or to our year groups
SARAH OAKES: and it's a huge responsibility.
SARAH OAKES: And I think when you've got social media
SARAH OAKES: saying all kinds of things to the pupils in
SARAH OAKES: front of you, you have to be three steps
SARAH OAKES: ahead of that. So if somebody asks you about
SARAH OAKES: Andrew Tate, for instance, you have to know a
SARAH OAKES: little bit about Andrew Tate to be able to
SARAH OAKES: set the record straight on a lot of those things.
SARAH OAKES: So it's not knowing what's going to come your way.
SARAH OAKES: And not every teacher feels
SARAH OAKES: 100% happy and confident in that environment.
PETE BASHAM: Yeah. One of the things that I think I'll pick
PETE BASHAM: up on is that when you train as a teacher,
PETE BASHAM: you're a subject specialist and you train to
PETE BASHAM: teach a particular subject. So, in my case, it
PETE BASHAM: was biology. So whilst I might teach a little
PETE BASHAM: bit of physics as well or a bit of chemistry,
PETE BASHAM: my main focus is biology.
PETE BASHAM: So I very much feel like the expert in the room.
PETE BASHAM: Whereas sometimes with some of the
PETE BASHAM: questions that you get fielded in a PSHE
PETE BASHAM: class, you don't always feel like the expert in
PETE BASHAM: the room. And that can be quite challenging for a teacher.
NATALIE DORMER: A teacher doesn't become a teacher with the
NATALIE DORMER: sole motivation, very often, of delivering
NATALIE DORMER: sex and relationship education.
NATALIE DORMER: It's an add-on.
PETE BASHAM: It's an add-on, yeah. NATALIE DORMER: And for some teachers, I'm presuming it's an
NATALIE DORMER: add-on that they find quite daunting.
PETE BASHAM: Yes, because also one of the things that
PETE BASHAM: happens with that is that it's an add-on with a
PETE BASHAM: heap of legislation and government-mandated
PETE BASHAM: legal requirements, which can be
PETE BASHAM: quite intimidating for an early career teacher;
PETE BASHAM: because you know that you have to deliver
PETE BASHAM: a certain number of things, and if you don't do that,
PETE BASHAM: you've failed in your statutory duty.
PETE BASHAM: So that means that often, I think that's why
PETE BASHAM: some PSHE lessons end up with just following
PETE BASHAM: the presentation on the board, because at least
PETE BASHAM: then we know we've got everything ticked off.
PETE BASHAM: So it's not terribly creative.
PETE BASHAM: All the things you learn about how to teach
PETE BASHAM: effectively, we don't tend to do in PSHE
PETE BASHAM: because you are so concerned about
PETE BASHAM: making sure you hit a statutory requirement legally as well.
SARAH OAKES: And as a subject specific teacher, you often
SARAH OAKES: end up having a form or a tutor group that you
SARAH OAKES: are pastorally in charge of;
SARAH OAKES: and alongside that comes the PSHE teaching that you
SARAH OAKES: probably didn't bargain for when you were training
SARAH OAKES: to be a teacher. PETE BASHAM: Yeah.
NATALIE DORMER: And I think that creative point is a really
NATALIE DORMER: great one to pick up on. It seems that the
NATALIE DORMER: feedback from the young people
NATALIE DORMER: seems to be that they would like more say
NATALIE DORMER: in how they are taught these
NATALIE DORMER: issues and these facts and advised, that has
NATALIE DORMER: more of an interactive element to it,
NATALIE DORMER: that can be a little bit more creative.
NATALIE DORMER: So maybe it feels...
NATALIE DORMER: Coming away from the script, so to speak, as Pete's
NATALIE DORMER: talking about. But also those scripts
NATALIE DORMER: that schools have for how to deliver SRE
NATALIE DORMER: vary widely, don't they?
NATALIE DORMER: And this is this is the beauty of the NSPCC
NATALIE DORMER: Talk Relationships course and the lesson
NATALIE DORMER: plans is it's really designed in the way
NATALIE DORMER: of leaning into helping a non-confident
NATALIE DORMER: teacher deliver this information in a way
NATALIE DORMER: that seems more approachable for the young
NATALIE DORMER: people. I mean, you guys have looked at the
NATALIE DORMER: course. How did you find it in comparison to
NATALIE DORMER: what you'd experienced before?
PETE BASHAM: I thought it was a really, really good course,
PETE BASHAM: and I'd recommend everyone do it because I
PETE BASHAM: think it's something that — we might come onto
PETE BASHAM: it later — but it's something that's not really
PETE BASHAM: in my [training]. I did my initial teacher
PETE BASHAM: training a few years back, and then I've also
PETE BASHAM: done what's called the early careers teachers
PETE BASHAM: framework, which is a couple of years of extra
PETE BASHAM: support and a slightly reduced timetable.
PETE BASHAM: But even through all of that, I haven't really
PETE BASHAM: had a huge amount of training.
PETE BASHAM: And so the tips and the advice in that
PETE BASHAM: course were really helpful in terms of managing
PETE BASHAM: a room, managing difficult conversations; how
PETE BASHAM: to prioritise safeguarding but
PETE BASHAM: also still allow conversations to happen.
PETE BASHAM: There was something called 'protective interrupting',
PETE BASHAM: which I really like — the idea of how to
PETE BASHAM: interrupt a student so that you're validating
PETE BASHAM: their point and you're appreciative of their
PETE BASHAM: contribution, however, you're actually
PETE BASHAM: protecting that student from giving away or
PETE BASHAM: exposing personal information about themselves,
PETE BASHAM: which could then become a further safeguarding
PETE BASHAM: issue. And it was just really nice, almost like
PETE BASHAM: a script, that you can use.
NATALIE DORMER: Tidbits like that, yeah.
PETE BASHAM: And things like that, that you just don't have
PETE BASHAM: time to do when you're training.
PETE BASHAM: And then you're sort of there with, like you
PETE BASHAM: say, a year 11 form who are very much
PETE BASHAM: in the thick of all of this, and they might
PETE BASHAM: come at you with all sorts of things.
PETE BASHAM: And so it's being aware of the legal
PETE BASHAM: requirements and obviously your own school's
PETE BASHAM: safeguarding policy, but then also being able
PETE BASHAM: to encourage conversation.
PETE BASHAM: Because actually that's one of the best ways
PETE BASHAM: that, you know, that sort of Socratic method
PETE BASHAM: that we use in the classroom, isn't often used
PETE BASHAM: in PSHE. And I think that's where it can be really helpful.
NATALIE DORMER: One of the great things I saw that the young
NATALIE DORMER: people were mentioning in their feedback was
NATALIE DORMER: they would like to encourage teachers to
NATALIE DORMER: split them more often into their friendship
NATALIE DORMER: groups, to talk in smaller groups about particular issues.
NATALIE DORMER: They feel safe, obviously, in their
NATALIE DORMER: friendship groups and therefore more likely
NATALIE DORMER: to explore or question things that they're
NATALIE DORMER: not sure about, or give opinion or share
NATALIE DORMER: experiences that might be troubling them.
NATALIE DORMER: And it's just something so simple as that,
NATALIE DORMER: right? It's actually a very simple thing to
NATALIE DORMER: do — break a class up into friendship groups
NATALIE DORMER: — and yet it would make a world of difference.
SARAH OAKES: And I think just the environmental space is so
SARAH OAKES: important for sharing.
SARAH OAKES: And it's much more efficient to teach a whole
SARAH OAKES: year group about something that you need to get
SARAH OAKES: ticked off, or you need to get covered — to
SARAH OAKES: just get everyone together, tell them the
SARAH OAKES: information, and then, you know, invite
SARAH OAKES: questions. But people aren't going to share if
SARAH OAKES: they don't feel safe and they don't feel like
SARAH OAKES: they've got their friends right behind them in
SARAH OAKES: that moment. So yeah, creating that
SARAH OAKES: environmental safety, I think is vital.
PETE BASHAM: Yeah. Because a student has to feel confident
PETE BASHAM: and safe in order to contribute in any class.
PETE BASHAM: You know, to put their hand up and answer a
PETE BASHAM: question is a big thing for a lot of students.
PETE BASHAM: And so, in a PSHE lesson or an RSE lesson, it
PETE BASHAM: is even more challenging for them;
PETE BASHAM: actually to talk in front of a whole year group
PETE BASHAM: or a whole class is almost impossible.
NATALIE DORMER: I mean we don't talk about these things as adults.
NATALIE DORMER: So why should it be any
NATALIE DORMER: easier for them with all the social pressures?
SARAH OAKES: A teenager doesn't want to ask a question about something personal.
SARAH OAKES: If they're unsure, you know, they'll get ribbed
SARAH OAKES: in the playground or, you know...
SARAH OAKES: They need to know that they can safely ask
SARAH OAKES: what they need to ask.
NATALIE DORMER: And that's where I think the lesson plans
NATALIE DORMER: and so forth that are available with the
NATALIE DORMER: NSPCC Talk Relationships — these
NATALIE DORMER: ideas about doing scenarios where you can
NATALIE DORMER: explore questions in depersonalised
NATALIE DORMER: or anonymous ways, you know, writing
NATALIE DORMER: questions and putting them in a jar and
NATALIE DORMER: reading them out. There's all these
NATALIE DORMER: hacks into how you can
NATALIE DORMER: get the subject matter to come from them.
NATALIE DORMER: Because, I mean, the thing that surprised me
NATALIE DORMER: the most was the amount
NATALIE DORMER: of feedback that was, you know, RSE
NATALIE DORMER: experience, sex and relationship experience,
NATALIE DORMER: often for the young people, it feels like
NATALIE DORMER: it's too little, too late.
NATALIE DORMER: And like you guys said, they've already
NATALIE DORMER: filled in the gaps with unreliable online sources.
NATALIE DORMER: So what I love about this NSPCC initiative
NATALIE DORMER: is that it's putting the focus back
NATALIE DORMER: on what the young people want to talk about,
NATALIE DORMER: making sure that we stay relevant to what's
NATALIE DORMER: happening in their lives.
SARAH OAKES: Exactly. The world is changing so much faster
SARAH OAKES: at the moment seemingly than it ever did when
SARAH OAKES: we were at their stage of life.
SARAH OAKES: And keeping on top of that, following their
SARAH OAKES: lead a little bit, I think is so important.
PETE BASHAM: In the report — the Sexuality
PETE BASHAM: Education Plus report — there was a
PETE BASHAM: quote from one of the students about how they
PETE BASHAM: didn't want to talk to their parents about any
PETE BASHAM: of this because the world that their parents
PETE BASHAM: grew up in and the problems that their parents
PETE BASHAM: had is not the world that the child currently
PETE BASHAM: lives in. And so they didn't see how they could be helpful.
NATALIE DORMER: Oh that's fascinating. So it's not even that
NATALIE DORMER: some are reticent because they're
NATALIE DORMER: embarrassed; it's literally they think their
NATALIE DORMER: parents experience is not relevant.
PETE BASHAM: Exactly. Yeah. Because if you think about the
PETE BASHAM: world we grew up in, it was very different.
PETE BASHAM: And the mobile phone obviously has a massive
PETE BASHAM: impact on that.
PETE BASHAM: But it's not just that. It's also computing,
PETE BASHAM: online gaming, all of the other social media
PETE BASHAM: and things like that.
PETE BASHAM: And I think what's good about the training was
PETE BASHAM: things like, say, taking an ABC approach —
PETE BASHAM: agree, build and challenge.
PETE BASHAM: And so when you're taking the subject matter
PETE BASHAM: for all the questions from your students, you
PETE BASHAM: can kind of... If they give you something
PETE BASHAM: that's a misconception, you can agree in terms
PETE BASHAM: of the subject, but you can then build on that concept.
PETE BASHAM: And so you sort of meet them where they are
PETE BASHAM: and then you don't leave them there. You take them
PETE BASHAM: to the relevant information or the correct
PETE BASHAM: information and then signpost to further
PETE BASHAM: information if they need it — all within,
PETE BASHAM: obviously, a safeguarding policy of the school.
PETE BASHAM: But I think having that concept of actually
PETE BASHAM: going to find them, almost, because if
PETE BASHAM: you just deliver a flat blanket piece of
PETE BASHAM: information to a teenager, they're going to totally switch off.
NATALIE DORMER: Yeah. They want lessons that are interactive,
NATALIE DORMER: that are discussion-based and that are
NATALIE DORMER: creative so that they can feel involved;
NATALIE DORMER: that they can feel in control of their
NATALIE DORMER: sex and relationship curriculum.
NATALIE DORMER: And I mean, the other thing I suppose we
NATALIE DORMER: didn't mention when we all introduced
NATALIE DORMER: ourselves is all three of us are parents.
NATALIE DORMER: And, you know, this is something that gives
NATALIE DORMER: parents literally sleepless nights as
NATALIE DORMER: well, thinking about these things.
NATALIE DORMER: So, I mean, I would urge parents listening
NATALIE DORMER: as well — who aren't teachers — to this
NATALIE DORMER: podcast to take an interest, a strong
NATALIE DORMER: interest in, you know, the resources that
NATALIE DORMER: are available with Talk Relationships by the
NATALIE DORMER: NSPCC as well. Because we get terrified
NATALIE DORMER: by what we hear in the news about the
NATALIE DORMER: sharing of nudes and the proportion of
NATALIE DORMER: children that have seen pornography by a
NATALIE DORMER: certain age, and it can be very easy
NATALIE DORMER: for you as a parent and a teacher, one
NATALIE DORMER: presumes, to go into sort of like panic mode
NATALIE DORMER: or firefighting mode.
NATALIE DORMER: It's us all taking a deep breath, I suppose.
SARAH OAKES: Well it is. And I think from my experience, I
SARAH OAKES: now have a teenager, which is one of the most
SARAH OAKES: horrifying stages of parenting, so far.
SARAH OAKES: And I can, you know, know all the things
SARAH OAKES: through my work and through my job.
SARAH OAKES: But applying that in, you know, in inverted
SARAH OAKES: commas, 'in real life' is quite
SARAH OAKES: a different experience. And, you know, he'll
SARAH OAKES: roll his eyes at me, obviously, because he's a
SARAH OAKES: teenager and that's what happens.
SARAH OAKES: But he knows I know the stuff and if I look
SARAH OAKES: like I'm about to start preaching an RSE lesson
SARAH OAKES: at him, then he'll sort of wander off.
SARAH OAKES: But it is an entirely different experience.
SARAH OAKES: So I think it's so important that parents, as
SARAH OAKES: well as the teachers delivering these lessons,
SARAH OAKES: are 100% on board with the things that we are
SARAH OAKES: saying in the classroom.
NATALIE DORMER: This is where it seems right for me just to
NATALIE DORMER: add in that the NSPCC does have a
NATALIE DORMER: whole lot of new parenting resources on
NATALIE DORMER: their main NSPCC website, which
NATALIE DORMER: guide parents in how to have conversations
NATALIE DORMER: with your children about healthy
NATALIE DORMER: relationships. So I know we're primarily
NATALIE DORMER: talking about formalised
NATALIE DORMER: education in schools today, but it's just a
NATALIE DORMER: shout out here to parents who want a helping
NATALIE DORMER: hand as well. That exists, folks, on the NSPCC website.
NATALIE DORMER: We've moved towards parents.
NATALIE DORMER: So what are some of the effective ways
NATALIE DORMER: to engage parents in sex and relationship
NATALIE DORMER: education, and what are the benefits?
NATALIE DORMER: I mean, they seem obvious, but please.
SARAH OAKES: Well, there are challenges. I mean, we write to
SARAH OAKES: our parents; we inform them of the curriculum,
SARAH OAKES: the topics that their child will be learning
SARAH OAKES: that year in their PSHE and RSE lessons.
SARAH OAKES: And they have an option to ask more questions,
SARAH OAKES: to see more detailed lesson content if they
SARAH OAKES: wish, and also, if they really want to,
SARAH OAKES: to withdraw their child from some of those
SARAH OAKES: lessons. And there are some earmarked
SARAH OAKES: topics that the children can be withdrawn from.
SARAH OAKES: And for me, there's a little
SARAH OAKES: bit of fear there, that some children,
SARAH OAKES: due to so many different reasons, won't be able to
SARAH OAKES: access some important information and some
SARAH OAKES: important learning opportunities as well.
SARAH OAKES: So I think the communication between school and parents is really vital.
SARAH OAKES: Getting them in to talk to them a little bit as well.
SARAH OAKES: And sometimes it is just a case of saying,
SARAH OAKES: 'it may not be everything you think
SARAH OAKES: it's going to be, it might not be as bad as you
SARAH OAKES: think, but these are the things we're going to
SARAH OAKES: say to your children'.
SARAH OAKES: And it's very difficult, I think, quite a lot
SARAH OAKES: of the time for them to say, 'well, I don't want
SARAH OAKES: you to say that to them', because there are
SARAH OAKES: incredibly important and good reasons to say those things.
NATALIE DORMER: Safeguarding reasons. SARAH OAKES: Absolutely.
SARAH OAKES: Talking about healthy relationships is the
SARAH OAKES: basis of all of it, and knowing what is and
SARAH OAKES: isn’t acceptable in your life.
PETE BASHAM: Yeah, I think there's obviously cultural and
PETE BASHAM: religious reasons why some parents might choose to opt out of it.
PETE BASHAM: And I think one of the — it actually came up on the course as well, which
PETE BASHAM: was really interesting — was around what to do
PETE BASHAM: in that situation. And like you were saying,
PETE BASHAM: whatever stage you're at, I think you've hit
PETE BASHAM: the nail on the head in bringing the parent in
PETE BASHAM: and making it more of a conversation and not
PETE BASHAM: too confrontational. Because I think that if a
PETE BASHAM: parent is in a position where they're already
PETE BASHAM: thinking about withdrawing a child from
PETE BASHAM: something that however many percent of their
PETE BASHAM: peers are going to be doing, they're already at
PETE BASHAM: a stage where they've thought about this.
PETE BASHAM: They're not going to do it light-heartedly.
PETE BASHAM: So I feel like it has to be then a conversation
PETE BASHAM: and maybe an education
PETE BASHAM: to the parent of what's actually included,
PETE BASHAM: because a lot of their fears may not be actually real.
PETE BASHAM: You know, we're not going to be telling
PETE BASHAM: students that they have to be this or they have to be that
PETE BASHAM: or they have to behave... As I say to my
PETE BASHAM: form, it's not my job to tell them necessarily
PETE BASHAM: what to think, it's to teach them how to think.
PETE BASHAM: And I think understanding— coming from a place
PETE BASHAM: of understanding of, well, because like you
PETE BASHAM: say, we're all parents and, you know, we
PETE BASHAM: want our child to be brought up the way we
PETE BASHAM: want our child to be brought up. And so when
PETE BASHAM: you hand over your child to a school, there's
PETE BASHAM: an awful lot of trust there.
PETE BASHAM: And so when there are points where there might
PETE BASHAM: be disagreement around that — and it's not
PETE BASHAM: necessarily the big cultural things or the
PETE BASHAM: religious things, but it could be on small things.
NATALIE DORMER: And it could be due to the parent's own past
NATALIE DORMER: and personal experiences.
NATALIE DORMER: It can be a very sensitive matter for
NATALIE DORMER: parents as well. PETE BASHAM: Yeah.
SARAH OAKES: But I think there are ways to have those conversations
SARAH OAKES: and maintain that level of trust as well, and
SARAH OAKES: just to make it clear for everybody.
SARAH OAKES: Some things can't be overcome, but I think it's
SARAH OAKES: always worth having those conversations when
SARAH OAKES: it's needed, so that these kids can get the best education.
NATALIE DORMER: At the end of the day, teachers and parents
NATALIE DORMER: alike have the same aim in safeguarding
NATALIE DORMER: children and preparing them so that the
NATALIE DORMER: young people have the skills themselves to protect themselves.
NATALIE DORMER: That's what we ultimately want.
NATALIE DORMER: Just before we move on, I feel like
NATALIE DORMER: returning to challenges: is time a factor?
NATALIE DORMER: When I talk to you two, both my friends,
NATALIE DORMER: I speak to you a lot.
NATALIE DORMER: There is so much that seems to be going on
NATALIE DORMER: and happening, so much that has to be
NATALIE DORMER: covered in school.
NATALIE DORMER: And it's like— SARAH OAKES: There's never enough time for anything! [laughter]
NATALIE DORMER: But seriously, do you think
NATALIE DORMER: this needs to be kicked up the priority ladder a
NATALIE DORMER: little bit more? Doesn't it?
NATALIE DORMER: Those in the decision-making positions
NATALIE DORMER: within schools, do we need to carve
NATALIE DORMER: out a little more time for this?
PETE BASHAM: I mean, you're in a leadership position,
PETE BASHAM: you can answer this one. I don't have to!
SARAH OAKES: I absolutely do think it needs to have a much
SARAH OAKES: more protected amount of time within
SARAH OAKES: the school week and in the context of
SARAH OAKES: absolutely everything else. But I think there
SARAH OAKES: are so many ways that aspects of it can filter
SARAH OAKES: into other parts of the curriculum that the
SARAH OAKES: children access. Due to the statutory aspect
SARAH OAKES: and the high level of importance that all of
SARAH OAKES: this has, it does need to be taken really
SARAH OAKES: seriously. And time— giving it that time and
SARAH OAKES: giving it the right people and the right
SARAH OAKES: training for the right people to deliver it
SARAH OAKES: is 100% important. It's vital.
NATALIE DORMER: And that's what the NSPCC want to do with
NATALIE DORMER: Talk Relationships. They want to help
NATALIE DORMER: schools make sex and relationship education
NATALIE DORMER: a priority across the whole school.
NATALIE DORMER: And it's embedding that healthy idea of
NATALIE DORMER: relationships for everyone on all levels of
NATALIE DORMER: the school community.
NATALIE DORMER: I mean you've basically stated that, you
NATALIE DORMER: know, it is that whole school approach —
NATALIE DORMER: which is what the NSPCC are trying to
NATALIE DORMER: lend a hand to — to give teachers
NATALIE DORMER: the confidence to think like that;
NATALIE DORMER: to be brave and be able to think like that.
SARAH OAKES: Absolutely. And we talk a lot in our school
SARAH OAKES: about character education. I know a lot of
SARAH OAKES: schools are basing so much of their pastoral
SARAH OAKES: work on building characters. You know, who are
SARAH OAKES: these people going to be in a few years' time?
SARAH OAKES: And there's so much brilliant overlap with that
SARAH OAKES: — and with the relationships education as well —
SARAH OAKES: that it should be so simple to
SARAH OAKES: slot loads of these things into the conversations
SARAH OAKES: and keep having those conversations.
NATALIE DORMER: Is there obvious things we're missing where
NATALIE DORMER: this can be supported in other subject areas?
PETE BASHAM: You can integrate so much of this into other
PETE BASHAM: curriculums. I mean obviously as a biology
PETE BASHAM: teacher, I teach the basics of sexual
PETE BASHAM: education from the physical point of view.
PETE BASHAM: But there's no reason why those lessons
PETE BASHAM: couldn't also include other things in them as
PETE BASHAM: well as they're being delivered.
PETE BASHAM: As they're learning about sex as a physical
PETE BASHAM: act, they could also be learning about what are
PETE BASHAM: the emotional impacts of this? Or how might
PETE BASHAM: someone feel if they discover they've got an
PETE BASHAM: STI? What might they do? I teach them these are
PETE BASHAM: the main STIs that you need to know to pass
PETE BASHAM: your exam, and these are the ways you prevent
PETE BASHAM: them, these are the contraceptives; but it's
PETE BASHAM: totally clinical. There's no point
PETE BASHAM: when they're learning that when there is a
PETE BASHAM: discussion around the actual real life scenario
PETE BASHAM: of what happens if you find out you're
PETE BASHAM: pregnant. The problem is that if it's left up
PETE BASHAM: to individual teachers, they may not deliver everything.
PETE BASHAM: And then there might be a worst case scenario
PETE BASHAM: that the students are then getting conflicting
PETE BASHAM: opinions from their standalone PSHE
PETE BASHAM: or RSE lesson, and then their biology teacher
PETE BASHAM: tells them something different. And then they think,
PETE BASHAM: 'oh, well, what do I do?
PETE BASHAM: Well, I won't listen to either of them'.
PETE BASHAM: Thinking about the whole school approach, I think it's
PETE BASHAM: also important to mention
PETE BASHAM: neurodiversity in the school as well, and the
PETE BASHAM: diversity generally in terms of special
PETE BASHAM: educational needs, because that can present
PETE BASHAM: different challenges to a teacher in the
PETE BASHAM: classroom generally, but then even more so for
PETE BASHAM: RSE education.
PETE BASHAM: And I think that there are particular
PETE BASHAM: challenges that can occur with those special
PETE BASHAM: needs that things like the Talk Relationships
PETE BASHAM: course are very good — and there are lesson
PETE BASHAM: plans there as well — to help with how to
PETE BASHAM: deliver that information in a way that's
PETE BASHAM: appropriate and is understandable.
NATALIE DORMER: I mean, it is about information isn't it?
NATALIE DORMER: It's about information for the young people
NATALIE DORMER: and it's also about information access for
NATALIE DORMER: the teachers, and for them not feeling alone
NATALIE DORMER: and drawing on resources that do exist.
NATALIE DORMER: Sarah and I, we had a reason to talk a few
NATALIE DORMER: weeks ago about the Report Remove service
NATALIE DORMER: that Childline have, in partnership with the
NATALIE DORMER: Internet Watch Foundation.
NATALIE DORMER: This amazing service with Report Remove
NATALIE DORMER: — that, anyone listening right now, children
NATALIE DORMER: under 18 will be able to find on the
NATALIE DORMER: Childline website, and adults and parents
NATALIE DORMER: will be able to find it
NATALIE DORMER: there or on the Internet Watch Foundation
NATALIE DORMER: website — where you can apply
NATALIE DORMER: to have unwanted sexualised videos
NATALIE DORMER: or images taken down off the internet.
NATALIE DORMER: There is a service that is provided that can
NATALIE DORMER: do that, and Childline have a very
NATALIE DORMER: informative step-by-step guide on their
NATALIE DORMER: website on how to do that.
NATALIE DORMER: It is urgent that form tutors
NATALIE DORMER: that are in this position of where a child
NATALIE DORMER: might come to them, that they know exactly
NATALIE DORMER: what is accessible to them, that they know
NATALIE DORMER: exactly where the help already exists
NATALIE DORMER: that they can lean on.
SARAH OAKES: Teachers need an armoury of links and
SARAH OAKES: signposts where they can send children for, you
SARAH OAKES: know, any possibility.
SARAH OAKES: And the NSPCC is a great place to start for all of those things.
SARAH OAKES: There might be a time where it's something that
SARAH OAKES: you just don't know the answer to, or you don't
SARAH OAKES: quite know the right way to say it.
SARAH OAKES: But knowing that there are places you can go
SARAH OAKES: for advice, or you can send the child to for
SARAH OAKES: advice, or other adults that they can go to is
SARAH OAKES: it's so important. You can't say nothing sometimes.
PETE BASHAM: Yeah. And I think as a fairly recently
PETE BASHAM: qualified teacher as well, one of the main
PETE BASHAM: things I do as a form tutor is rely heavily on
PETE BASHAM: my head of year. So I will, if I come across
PETE BASHAM: something which I don't know quite how to
PETE BASHAM: handle it, I will go to my head of year for
PETE BASHAM: anything pastoral; who's in charge of the whole
PETE BASHAM: year group. And they've got a lot more
PETE BASHAM: experience and they're able to normally
PETE BASHAM: signpost in the right direction as to whether
PETE BASHAM: something is... Is this a safeguarding issue or
PETE BASHAM: isn't it, for example; because I think in the
PETE BASHAM: early days you kind of thing everything's a
PETE BASHAM: safeguarding issue, you know, everything. And actually some things aren’t.
PETE BASHAM: But they are still very important and need to have a pathway.
PETE BASHAM: So having a clear understanding of what those
PETE BASHAM: pathways are like you were saying, Sarah, about the signposting.
PETE BASHAM: I think that's hugely important.
PETE BASHAM: And again, not to bang on about it, but the
PETE BASHAM: course has a lot of information on it as well,
PETE BASHAM: which is really good.
SARAH OAKES: I think you can get really overwhelmed with the
SARAH OAKES: responsibility sometimes of, you know,
SARAH OAKES: having these young people and shaping their
SARAH OAKES: lives. It is a huge responsibility,
SARAH OAKES: but it doesn't all rest on your shoulders. There are places to go,
SARAH OAKES: people to ask, things to read, courses to do.
NATALIE DORMER: I feel like we're naturally coming to a
NATALIE DORMER: conclusion now and coming to an end now, but
NATALIE DORMER: it feels like it's a constantly moving
NATALIE DORMER: thing. And as Sarah's already cited,
NATALIE DORMER: technology is constantly moving.
NATALIE DORMER: As parents and teachers, I think,
NATALIE DORMER: what I really found with the survey, is it's
NATALIE DORMER: this need to touch base and keep up to date
NATALIE DORMER: and in touch with what children want
NATALIE DORMER: and young people need and say and what's
NATALIE DORMER: relevant to them. And I think this is
NATALIE DORMER: where... I suppose what we're just saying
NATALIE DORMER: today is we are not making people eat their
NATALIE DORMER: greens here today in the podcast; what we
NATALIE DORMER: want to explain is the NSPCC is a
NATALIE DORMER: helping hand, has hours and hours
NATALIE DORMER: of information and man-hours of research and
NATALIE DORMER: resource that should be drawn upon.
NATALIE DORMER: And it's about engaging the young people to feel
NATALIE DORMER: emancipated and in control of what they
NATALIE DORMER: learn. And it's starting a dialogue, really, isn't it?
NATALIE DORMER: So to conclude, I just want to say a huge
NATALIE DORMER: thank you to Pete and Sarah for joining me today.
PETE BASHAM: Thanks very much.
SARAH OAKES: Thank you.
NATALIE DORMER: If you're looking for advice, support or
NATALIE DORMER: guidance that you can trust, you can visit
NATALIE DORMER: nspcc.org.uk/talkrelationships,
NATALIE DORMER: where you can find information on delivering
NATALIE DORMER: sex and relationships education in your
NATALIE DORMER: school. You can find links to all of the
NATALIE DORMER: other resources mentioned today in the podcast shownotes
NATALIE DORMER: And of course, as a Childline ambassador,
NATALIE DORMER: I'm going to give a shout out to the
NATALIE DORMER: Childline website, which has lots of great
NATALIE DORMER: help and information for young people about relationships.
NATALIE DORMER: They can talk to trained counsellors about
NATALIE DORMER: anything, so if you're a young person or a
NATALIE DORMER: child 18 or under, please call 0800 1111.
NATALIE DORMER: That's 0800 1111,
NATALIE DORMER: or you can chat online.
NATALIE DORMER: And if you ever have any concerns about a
NATALIE DORMER: child, please contact the NSPCC
NATALIE DORMER: Helpline on 0808 800 5000
NATALIE DORMER: or by emailing help@nspcc.org.uk.
NATALIE DORMER: Thank you for listening.
OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast.
OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was
OUTRO: up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child
OUTRO: protection is ever-changing.
OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current
OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,
OUTRO: information or resources, please visit our
OUTRO: website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.