1 00:00:08,218 --> 00:00:10,339 DAVID OLUSOGA: Hello, and welcome to The National Trust 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:15,322 Podcast. I'm David Olusoga, a historian and broadcaster. Some 3 00:00:15,342 --> 00:00:19,044 of our most fascinating stories are unmarked in the landscape. 4 00:00:19,644 --> 00:00:23,806 One such secret story can be found in an unassuming building 5 00:00:23,966 --> 00:00:28,592 which lies nestled in Exmoor National Park. Today, Holnicote 6 00:00:28,632 --> 00:00:32,974 House is a hotel, but during the Second World War, it was used as 7 00:00:32,954 --> 00:00:34,254 a home for children, 8 00:00:34,794 --> 00:00:38,295 Children who had been born to white British mothers and black 9 00:00:38,475 --> 00:00:43,156 American GI fathers. Children who had been given up and placed 10 00:00:43,417 --> 00:00:43,957 into care. 11 00:00:44,777 --> 00:00:47,998 Today, we'll be unearthing the story of Britain's 12 00:00:47,998 --> 00:00:52,139 so-called'Brown Babies' and revealing a forgotten part of 13 00:00:52,239 --> 00:00:55,600 our history that is still affecting families today. 14 00:01:00,308 --> 00:01:03,590 ANN: Mam and dad came here, the couple that adopted me, they 15 00:01:03,670 --> 00:01:08,213 came. Now they saw me in that photograph in the newspaper, and 16 00:01:08,213 --> 00:01:10,875 they picked out which child they wanted. My mother wanted, she 17 00:01:10,875 --> 00:01:11,976 was desperate for a girl. 18 00:01:13,637 --> 00:01:17,320 And then they asked me would I like to go with them, and I said 19 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,483 to the lady, I like you, yes, yes, I like you. And the matron 20 00:01:21,543 --> 00:01:25,565 took me upstairs and explained, now this lady and gentleman were 21 00:01:25,585 --> 00:01:30,636 going to give me a home. And my concern was... What about the 22 00:01:30,716 --> 00:01:35,859 ones here? Where are they going? No, you're going on your own and 23 00:01:35,879 --> 00:01:36,540 you'll be fine. 24 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,842 DAVID OLUSOGA: And you still feel, both of you, all these 25 00:01:40,862 --> 00:01:43,403 decades later, a sense of coming home. 26 00:01:44,324 --> 00:01:46,045 ANN: Absolutely. 27 00:01:47,285 --> 00:01:50,127 CAROL: Now I belong here. This is my home. 28 00:01:51,768 --> 00:01:53,969 DAVID OLUSOGA: The Holnicote Estate is best known as a 29 00:01:54,029 --> 00:01:58,191 walker's paradise with over 12,000 acres of patchwork 30 00:01:58,472 --> 00:02:02,734 landscape and walkways, all looked after by the National 31 00:02:02,794 --> 00:02:07,657 Trust. It includes a wooded nature reserve, high rugged 32 00:02:07,717 --> 00:02:11,799 moorlands and quintessentially English hamlets, as well as 33 00:02:11,859 --> 00:02:14,380 miles of sandy and shingle coastline. 34 00:02:15,581 --> 00:02:19,743 Nestling in this stunning landscape is Holnicote House 35 00:02:19,924 --> 00:02:24,435 Hotel. Walking past, you would have no clue about the hidden 36 00:02:24,515 --> 00:02:28,719 history of this hotel. There are no signs or exhibitions to hint 37 00:02:29,139 --> 00:02:33,483 at this story. But during the Second World War, Holnicote 38 00:02:33,523 --> 00:02:39,228 House played a unique role. It served as a children's home for 39 00:02:39,288 --> 00:02:43,152 children born to black GIs and white British mothers. 40 00:02:48,776 --> 00:02:51,918 We're here inside Holnicote House, and I'm here with Lucy 41 00:02:51,998 --> 00:02:55,401 Bland, the author of a book called Britain's'Brown Babies', 42 00:02:55,541 --> 00:02:59,203 that, through interviews, tells this rather forgotten story. 43 00:02:59,924 --> 00:03:03,006 LUCY BLAND: That's right. So the term'Brown Babies' might seem a 44 00:03:03,106 --> 00:03:06,818 strange one, but this was the term given by the African 45 00:03:06,818 --> 00:03:11,712 American press to the children born to black GIs, and initially 46 00:03:11,772 --> 00:03:14,994 British women, but then during the years of occupation in 47 00:03:15,034 --> 00:03:17,616 Germany and Austria, to those children as well. 48 00:03:18,172 --> 00:03:20,714 DAVID OLUSOGA: This story of the'Brown Babies' in Britain is 49 00:03:20,734 --> 00:03:24,797 part of a bigger history of what happened socially when America 50 00:03:24,877 --> 00:03:26,538 enters the war in 1941. 51 00:03:26,538 --> 00:03:30,520 LUCY BLAND: So they start arriving in 1942. We're not sure 52 00:03:30,761 --> 00:03:36,384 quite the numbers of black GIs, but passing through those three 53 00:03:36,424 --> 00:03:40,027 years to the end of the war, probably at least 240,000. 54 00:03:40,027 --> 00:03:43,969 Significant numbers. And this is despite various directives from 55 00:03:43,969 --> 00:03:46,691 the government that they really didn't want these 56 00:03:46,811 --> 00:03:49,833 interrelationships. Didn't want actually to have black GIs. 57 00:03:49,893 --> 00:03:51,234 DAVID OLUSOGA: Because the American army was able to 58 00:03:51,274 --> 00:03:55,157 segregate its bases. It was able to run a segregated army, but 59 00:03:55,157 --> 00:03:59,320 they couldn't impose that sort of segregation on the people of 60 00:03:59,340 --> 00:04:03,303 Britain. And so you do have this moment when British populations 61 00:04:03,463 --> 00:04:06,686 suddenly encounter very large numbers of African Americans, 62 00:04:07,166 --> 00:04:08,867 which, for the most part, is very positive. 63 00:04:09,768 --> 00:04:12,810 LUCY BLAND: And they inevitably started to meet local women. 64 00:04:13,911 --> 00:04:17,093 It's thought to be a step too far. I'll accept them as my 65 00:04:17,193 --> 00:04:19,133 brothers, but not my brothers-in-law. 66 00:04:20,074 --> 00:04:21,635 DAVID OLUSOGA: Millions of women have been separated from their 67 00:04:22,035 --> 00:04:26,236 boyfriends, from their husbands, on an island in which millions 68 00:04:26,236 --> 00:04:30,078 of men from all over the world, with money, with dashing 69 00:04:30,178 --> 00:04:33,620 uniforms, suddenly arrive with people having very little money, 70 00:04:34,100 --> 00:04:38,281 the threat of losing partners in the war and living for now. 71 00:04:38,922 --> 00:04:41,403 LUCY BLAND: The women who went on and had children with black 72 00:04:41,463 --> 00:04:45,080 GIs were treated often very, very badly. Often they're quite 73 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,483 young, they're living at home. Their families often reject them 74 00:04:49,723 --> 00:04:52,125 and certainly say, get rid of this child. They're sent to 75 00:04:52,285 --> 00:04:53,206 mother and baby homes. 76 00:04:53,426 --> 00:04:56,748 There they're really pressurised to give the child up. And if 77 00:04:56,808 --> 00:05:00,330 they were married and the man comes back, he might pressurise 78 00:05:00,330 --> 00:05:05,417 her to give up the child. So it was incredibly hard, but I think 79 00:05:05,697 --> 00:05:08,719 just over half of the mothers, or possibly the grandmothers, 80 00:05:08,799 --> 00:05:10,940 did keep the child, despite all this. 81 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:14,702 DAVID OLUSOGA: Ideas around relationships and marriage and 82 00:05:14,762 --> 00:05:18,464 sex, under the incredible pressures of the Second World 83 00:05:18,484 --> 00:05:22,186 War, broke down in all sorts of ways. So it is not anything 84 00:05:22,246 --> 00:05:25,928 exceptional that people had affairs with black GIs. And so 85 00:05:26,068 --> 00:05:28,809 adding race into that just meant that the children who were the 86 00:05:28,829 --> 00:05:31,511 product of those relationships were visible. 87 00:05:32,375 --> 00:05:34,837 LUCY BLAND: That's right. I mean, there was a stigma of 88 00:05:34,937 --> 00:05:38,740 illegitimacy, but then the stigma of being mixed race on 89 00:05:38,740 --> 00:05:40,902 top of that was a huge stigma for them. 90 00:05:41,402 --> 00:05:44,105 DAVID OLUSOGA: This place, Holnicote House, it's part of a 91 00:05:44,145 --> 00:05:47,627 whole infrastructure that's there to facilitate these 92 00:05:47,647 --> 00:05:49,389 children being taken from their mothers. 93 00:05:50,630 --> 00:05:52,531 LUCY BLAND: Yeah, I think that's right. And there were various 94 00:05:52,571 --> 00:05:56,555 charities that obviously wanted to so-called help these 95 00:05:56,575 --> 00:06:00,238 children. So Honeycutt House is this absolutely beautiful House 96 00:06:00,518 --> 00:06:04,240 in Somerset. And. It was under the ownership of the Acklands. 97 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:11,444 And in 1942-43, it was requisitioned by Somerset County 98 00:06:11,484 --> 00:06:16,286 Council for evacuees. And so then they start filling it with 99 00:06:16,466 --> 00:06:20,568 children who are being born locally to black GIs. Since 100 00:06:20,608 --> 00:06:25,310 then, it's been a hotel for walking holidays. So it's kept 101 00:06:25,430 --> 00:06:27,051 going as this wonderful place to be. 102 00:06:30,547 --> 00:06:33,229 DAVID OLUSOGA: I'm here with Anne Evans and Carol Edwards, 103 00:06:33,529 --> 00:06:37,731 childhood friends, to revisit their story here at Holnicote 104 00:06:37,771 --> 00:06:42,073 House. And to shine a light on a hidden part of British history. 105 00:06:45,075 --> 00:06:46,616 Carol, you look very emotional. 106 00:06:46,616 --> 00:06:52,419 CAROL: Yes, I do. I've felt a lot of emotion coming back to my 107 00:06:52,439 --> 00:06:53,019 beginnings. 108 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:54,600 DAVID OLUSOGA: To your beginnings? 109 00:06:55,221 --> 00:06:58,963 CAROL: It's my third visit to the place in what? 110 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:04,403 70 odd years and it just brings back so many happy memories 111 00:07:05,403 --> 00:07:08,626 DAVID OLUSOGA: And where you two met a long time ago. And this 112 00:07:08,686 --> 00:07:12,869 room in particular this is the lounge now the house is a hotel. 113 00:07:12,869 --> 00:07:14,618 This was a place that you played? 114 00:07:14,618 --> 00:07:18,534 ANN: This is the playroom yes. And we had the doll and the crib 115 00:07:18,574 --> 00:07:23,058 and the other toys. It wouldn't be just us two maybe someone 116 00:07:23,118 --> 00:07:26,661 else would join in because all the toys there belonged to 117 00:07:26,701 --> 00:07:27,181 everyone 118 00:07:27,341 --> 00:07:32,996 CAROL: Yeah nothing was mine all yours it was ours. 119 00:07:32,996 --> 00:07:35,418 DAVID OLUSOGA: Seven decades later you both feel that you 120 00:07:35,438 --> 00:07:37,999 were you were shaped by your very early years 121 00:07:38,979 --> 00:07:39,740 CAROL: Absolutely 122 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,261 DAVID OLUSOGA: And how old were you when you arrived Ann? 123 00:07:43,261 --> 00:07:49,300 ANN: I was three days old when I got you and I was four and 124 00:07:50,221 --> 00:07:52,123 eleven months when I went from here. 125 00:07:52,123 --> 00:07:53,664 DAVID OLUSOGA: And how about you, Carol? 126 00:07:53,664 --> 00:07:57,728 CAROL: I arrived here when I was about two and a half weeks and I 127 00:07:57,768 --> 00:08:00,690 left probably about the same time as that. I think we all 128 00:08:01,271 --> 00:08:05,655 left almost all together, didn't we? You're five, yeah. Yeah. 129 00:08:05,655 --> 00:08:08,297 ANN: You moved on to a different place when you came to five, but 130 00:08:08,377 --> 00:08:09,578 I was adopted, so... 131 00:08:10,743 --> 00:08:11,704 DAVID OLUSOGA: How about you, Carol? 132 00:08:11,724 --> 00:08:13,747 CAROL: I went from here to Wellington. 133 00:08:14,668 --> 00:08:15,749 DAVID OLUSOGA: Which was another children's home. 134 00:08:16,069 --> 00:08:16,990 CAROL: Yeah, yeah. 135 00:08:16,990 --> 00:08:17,651 DAVID OLUSOGA: Again at Somerset? 136 00:08:17,891 --> 00:08:22,156 CAROL: Yeah, and I was there until I was about 12. Yeah, I 137 00:08:22,176 --> 00:08:23,598 liked it a lot. I was happy there. 138 00:08:25,300 --> 00:08:26,501 But there's no place like home. 139 00:08:28,203 --> 00:08:30,645 DAVID OLUSOGA: You describe the children here as a happy bunch. 140 00:08:31,306 --> 00:08:31,906 CAROL: We were happy. 141 00:08:32,147 --> 00:08:34,909 DAVID OLUSOGA: Here's a photograph. I think it's a 142 00:08:34,909 --> 00:08:39,193 testimony to that. When I look at this picture, I see children 143 00:08:39,793 --> 00:08:42,255 who look really close. You're all touching each other. You're 144 00:08:42,255 --> 00:08:45,538 hugging each other. There's hands on shoulders. Can you tell 145 00:08:45,558 --> 00:08:45,679 me? 146 00:08:46,059 --> 00:08:48,121 CAROL: That's Leon, my boyfriend. I was going to marry 147 00:08:48,141 --> 00:08:49,662 him at that age, I tell you. 148 00:08:49,742 --> 00:08:50,643 DAVID OLUSOGA: And where were you, Carol? 149 00:08:51,544 --> 00:08:54,626 CAROL: That one. That's me. That's Deborah. 150 00:08:55,507 --> 00:08:56,088 DAVID OLUSOGA: Where were you at? 151 00:08:57,008 --> 00:08:57,569 ANN: In the front. 152 00:08:57,809 --> 00:08:58,549 DAVID OLUSOGA: There you are. 153 00:08:58,569 --> 00:08:59,430 CAROL: She's always in the front. 154 00:09:00,911 --> 00:09:03,512 ANN: About three, I think, when I was taken. 155 00:09:03,512 --> 00:09:05,194 DAVID OLUSOGA: I thought that was you when I saw this picture. 156 00:09:06,134 --> 00:09:06,534 The gang. 157 00:09:07,055 --> 00:09:07,295 CAROL: Yeah. 158 00:09:09,236 --> 00:09:10,677 DAVID OLUSOGA: And the nurses, I mean, these are nursery nurses. 159 00:09:10,677 --> 00:09:12,999 Yeah, nursery nurses. I mean, they were probably teenagers. 160 00:09:12,999 --> 00:09:15,320 CHAMION CABALLERO: They were 17 and 18, that's all they were. 161 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:16,661 But no, they were lovely. 162 00:09:17,482 --> 00:09:20,420 DAVID OLUSOGA: Do you think you were insulated from the racism 163 00:09:20,620 --> 00:09:24,043 of Britain in the 40s and 50s by being here with these very kind 164 00:09:24,083 --> 00:09:24,563 young nurses. 165 00:09:24,583 --> 00:09:25,444 ANN: Yes, I think we were. 166 00:09:26,064 --> 00:09:28,306 DAVID OLUSOGA: And it does explain this happy little gang 167 00:09:28,506 --> 00:09:30,968 of kids on the lawn 70 years ago. 168 00:09:31,209 --> 00:09:34,071 CAROL: Yeah. Yeah, we were happy, we were healthy and we 169 00:09:34,131 --> 00:09:34,632 were loved. 170 00:09:37,254 --> 00:09:39,436 DAVID OLUSOGA: Should we have a look at some other rooms where 171 00:09:39,436 --> 00:09:40,276 you might have other memories? 172 00:09:40,396 --> 00:09:43,319 ANN: Yes, yes, by all means. Do you want to go to the potty 173 00:09:43,439 --> 00:09:44,160 room, Carol? 174 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:45,381 CAROL: I want to see the potty room. 175 00:09:46,722 --> 00:09:47,262 DAVID OLUSOGA: You lead the way. 176 00:09:50,955 --> 00:09:56,319 ANN: No it wasn't in there... it isn't that one 177 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:00,661 CAROL: We've lost the potty room 178 00:10:04,603 --> 00:10:06,483 See, I can remember all these brown doors. 179 00:10:11,385 --> 00:10:12,125 DAVID OLUSOGA: Shall we try down here? 180 00:10:12,125 --> 00:10:17,786 Do you remember these tiles, this pattern? 181 00:10:18,127 --> 00:10:22,048 ANN: I would think this is more or less where it was. 182 00:10:22,148 --> 00:10:22,988 DAVID OLUSOGA: And this was the potty room is that right? 183 00:10:23,008 --> 00:10:27,129 ANN: And that was it, yeah. And you'd take the pots out of 184 00:10:27,129 --> 00:10:29,090 there, and we'd all line up there. 185 00:10:29,390 --> 00:10:29,550 CAROL: Yeah. 186 00:10:30,290 --> 00:10:35,272 ANN: Bums on each pot. Yeah. And Leon then would be the leader. 187 00:10:35,312 --> 00:10:36,513 We're going to play trains. 188 00:10:38,994 --> 00:10:40,874 DAVID OLUSOGA: Should we go and look at some other rooms and see 189 00:10:41,034 --> 00:10:42,135 if they bring up other memories? 190 00:10:42,315 --> 00:10:43,135 CAROL: Yes. Okay. 191 00:10:45,656 --> 00:10:48,457 Ah, yes. Here we go. 192 00:10:49,878 --> 00:10:50,658 DAVID OLUSOGA: So what was this room? 193 00:10:51,218 --> 00:10:51,699 CAROL: Piano room. 194 00:10:52,139 --> 00:10:53,219 DAVID OLUSOGA: Piano room. Hence the piano. 195 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,702 CAROL: Let's give it a little tinkle. Look at the state of 196 00:10:58,702 --> 00:11:05,767 these keys. Yes. Do you remember that one? Do you know why that's 197 00:11:05,807 --> 00:11:08,089 white? It's been replaced because that's the one you broke 198 00:11:08,089 --> 00:11:08,689 your teeth on. 199 00:11:09,650 --> 00:11:10,330 DAVID OLUSOGA: This key in the piano? 200 00:11:10,330 --> 00:11:12,853 CAROL: It had to be replaced because you used to chew them. 201 00:11:13,033 --> 00:11:16,135 ANN: Yeah, I was chewing them, yeah. 202 00:11:16,135 --> 00:11:17,036 DAVID OLUSOGA: And this is a big room. 203 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:18,657 CAROL: It's lovely. 204 00:11:19,178 --> 00:11:21,540 DAVID OLUSOGA: I can imagine all the children in that photograph. 205 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:22,781 All of you running around. 206 00:11:22,801 --> 00:11:24,922 CAROL: And the noise bouncing off the walls. 207 00:11:25,283 --> 00:11:28,025 ANN: And one of the nurses would play the piano for us all to 208 00:11:28,065 --> 00:11:29,226 sing Christmas carols. 209 00:11:30,198 --> 00:11:31,960 DAVID OLUSOGA: So your first Christmas is... 210 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:32,961 ANN: Was spent here, yeah. 211 00:11:34,783 --> 00:11:36,665 DAVID OLUSOGA: And out there, it's a view into the front 212 00:11:36,705 --> 00:11:37,005 garden. 213 00:11:41,630 --> 00:11:44,673 So this is now out in the garden. It is absolutely 214 00:11:44,733 --> 00:11:45,113 beautiful. 215 00:11:46,174 --> 00:11:48,177 CAROL: Yeah. Same old trees. 216 00:11:49,458 --> 00:11:49,978 DAVID OLUSOGA: A lot bigger. 217 00:11:50,399 --> 00:11:51,220 CAROL: A lot bigger, yeah. 218 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:52,201 DAVID OLUSOGA: Shall we head down? 219 00:11:52,341 --> 00:11:52,841 CAROL: Yeah, yeah. 220 00:11:56,678 --> 00:12:00,441 Living here, it was like every day was a summer's day, wasn't 221 00:12:00,481 --> 00:12:03,884 it Ann? We'd get up, get dressed, wash, have our 222 00:12:03,904 --> 00:12:08,869 breakfast, to the potty room, outside, until the sun went 223 00:12:08,909 --> 00:12:09,149 down. 224 00:12:10,010 --> 00:12:10,750 ANN: Go for a walk then 225 00:12:10,750 --> 00:12:13,373 CAROL: Go for a walk, lots of walks, didn't we? 226 00:12:13,813 --> 00:12:17,016 That's why I'm so short. 227 00:12:17,016 --> 00:12:18,717 DAVID OLUSOGA: So you were taken out of here on walks in the 228 00:12:18,717 --> 00:12:19,198 countryside? 229 00:12:20,118 --> 00:12:21,079 ANN: Yeah, all over the place. 230 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:23,682 CAROL: Walked almost every day, didn't we? 231 00:12:25,634 --> 00:12:27,576 DAVID OLUSOGA: And so the reasons why you were brought 232 00:12:27,656 --> 00:12:31,299 here were to do with racial attitudes in society, but for 233 00:12:31,299 --> 00:12:33,901 the years you were here this was a sanctuary from those 234 00:12:33,941 --> 00:12:34,462 attitudes. 235 00:12:34,522 --> 00:12:35,183 CAROL: Absolutely. 236 00:12:35,903 --> 00:12:39,146 ANN: When I was in South Wales I was told on a regular basis to 237 00:12:39,186 --> 00:12:42,889 get back where I belonged, as they didn't want me in 238 00:12:42,949 --> 00:12:47,293 Cwmtillery, and I kept saying I'm not going anywhere, I live 239 00:12:47,293 --> 00:12:47,433 here. 240 00:12:49,582 --> 00:12:51,323 DAVID OLUSOGA: And up until that point, because you'd been here 241 00:12:51,323 --> 00:12:52,803 at Holnicote, you'd not experienced this? 242 00:12:52,783 --> 00:12:57,845 ANN: No, never. Didn't even know what they were on about. I'd got 243 00:12:57,905 --> 00:13:03,107 into the family well. I had four older brothers and I acquired a 244 00:13:03,187 --> 00:13:06,628 grandmother and a grandfather who were lovely. They were 245 00:13:06,688 --> 00:13:10,410 lovely people. And my grandmother, I got very close to 246 00:13:10,410 --> 00:13:15,359 my grandmother. And she would row with anyone who had a mind 247 00:13:15,359 --> 00:13:17,840 to say anything to me. She'd row with them. 248 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:19,060 DAVID OLUSOGA: You mean anything racist? 249 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:19,420 ANN: Yeah. 250 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,681 CAROL: Unlike Anne and some of the other children, I didn't get 251 00:13:23,741 --> 00:13:29,743 any sort of racial abuse. I was about maybe 15, 16. That's when 252 00:13:29,803 --> 00:13:33,924 I realised I was different. And the only reason I came to that 253 00:13:33,964 --> 00:13:35,725 conclusion was through music. 254 00:13:37,565 --> 00:13:39,726 I thought, right, I'm going to save up and get a record player. 255 00:13:40,506 --> 00:13:42,908 Meanwhile, I buy some records. The first one I got was Shirley 256 00:13:42,968 --> 00:13:46,831 Bassey. Still got it to this day. It's called In the Still Of 257 00:13:46,811 --> 00:13:50,074 The Night. It cost me 19 shillings and 11 pence, which is 258 00:13:50,074 --> 00:13:53,017 a penny short of a pound in today's money. Still got it, 259 00:13:53,057 --> 00:13:53,657 still play it. 260 00:13:54,718 --> 00:13:57,561 SPK_5: And I can remember hearing Shirley Bassey. I 261 00:13:57,561 --> 00:14:01,464 thought, wow, what a voice. And then I got into Sarah Vaughan 262 00:14:01,644 --> 00:14:06,408 and Billy Eckstein and Ella Fitzgerald. And I looked at the 263 00:14:06,448 --> 00:14:09,579 covers and I thought, hang on a minute. Because they were all 264 00:14:09,579 --> 00:14:14,382 black. And I'm thinking, they look like me. And from that day 265 00:14:14,483 --> 00:14:16,664 on, I've been black and proud. 266 00:14:22,009 --> 00:14:24,871 DAVID OLUSOGA: As you moved on through life, what did it make 267 00:14:24,891 --> 00:14:26,733 you think about your own childhood and how you'd been 268 00:14:26,753 --> 00:14:27,173 brought up? 269 00:14:28,394 --> 00:14:33,826 ANN: When I decided to look for my biological mother, I went 270 00:14:33,866 --> 00:14:37,189 around to my four brothers to pass it with them, because as 271 00:14:37,249 --> 00:14:39,992 long as mam and dad were still alive, I wouldn't have looked. 272 00:14:41,073 --> 00:14:42,234 DAVID OLUSOGA: And where did that search take you? 273 00:14:42,654 --> 00:14:47,018 ANN: Well, it took me to find my mother, eventually, who really 274 00:14:47,098 --> 00:14:50,661 didn't want to know anyway. It was just a mistake. I had too 275 00:14:50,701 --> 00:14:55,125 much to drink. And I said, well, look, all I want from you is the 276 00:14:55,165 --> 00:14:59,429 name of my father. And she gave me that, and I said, and from 277 00:14:59,469 --> 00:15:03,206 then on, I shan't bother you anymore. I got too much to lose. 278 00:15:04,507 --> 00:15:09,408 CAROL: My father was always in touch with me through his niece. 279 00:15:10,588 --> 00:15:14,209 At one point, he tried to get custody of me, going through the 280 00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:17,790 local authorities. And at that point, I was still at school. I 281 00:15:17,790 --> 00:15:22,712 was about 14, 15. And the authorities saying that Carol's 282 00:15:23,172 --> 00:15:26,473 happy where she is. Because he wanted me to go out there. 283 00:15:26,873 --> 00:15:27,993 DAVID OLUSOGA: To the United States. 284 00:15:28,173 --> 00:15:30,898 CAROL: To live, yeah. And they said, no, it wouldn't be... It 285 00:15:30,898 --> 00:15:33,940 wouldn't be fair to me to send me off to a different country, 286 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,302 into a different family where people are a lot blacker than 287 00:15:37,342 --> 00:15:40,344 me. So, no, he gave up in the end. 288 00:15:40,364 --> 00:15:43,646 DAVID OLUSOGA: Even though your father was trying to reunite 289 00:15:43,806 --> 00:15:46,287 with you, the authorities got in the way and felt that way. 290 00:15:46,267 --> 00:15:48,168 CAROL: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't think I would have 291 00:15:48,168 --> 00:15:49,849 gone anyway, David. No 292 00:15:50,810 --> 00:15:53,071 DAVID OLUSOGA: I just wanted to ask you about what happened 293 00:15:53,131 --> 00:15:57,814 after you became adults and went on to have families of your own. 294 00:15:58,622 --> 00:16:05,187 ANN: When I was very young when I met my husband, I was 15 and 295 00:16:05,227 --> 00:16:08,309 we'd only been going out about 12 months I think and he said, 296 00:16:09,790 --> 00:16:13,952 I'm going to marry you. He was white. And I said, I don't think 297 00:16:13,952 --> 00:16:16,734 your mother likes me. Don't matter what she likes, he said, 298 00:16:16,794 --> 00:16:20,197 I'm going to marry you. And three years later we got married 299 00:16:21,458 --> 00:16:26,161 and we lasted for 60, nearly 61 years which he passed six weeks 300 00:16:26,201 --> 00:16:31,786 ago. And we had four children, two boys and two girls. 301 00:16:33,729 --> 00:16:37,793 My children experienced a bit of racism, but of course I tried to 302 00:16:37,833 --> 00:16:41,878 explain to them I may have been overprotective, which, you know, 303 00:16:41,898 --> 00:16:44,401 as far as some people were concerned, but as far as I was 304 00:16:44,441 --> 00:16:48,085 concerned, that was my duty as a mother. I was to protect my 305 00:16:48,165 --> 00:16:48,566 children. 306 00:16:49,786 --> 00:16:51,847 DAVID OLUSOGA: Do you think there's anything that you guys 307 00:16:52,047 --> 00:16:54,928 had, because you're such a close-knit group of children, 308 00:16:55,348 --> 00:16:59,389 that is kind of special, sort of almost, that other children 309 00:16:59,449 --> 00:16:59,849 don't have? 310 00:17:00,309 --> 00:17:03,510 ANN: But I think and that's why. Because it was so special. It 311 00:17:04,210 --> 00:17:07,271 doesn't matter how old we are, we've still got that connection. 312 00:17:07,911 --> 00:17:09,332 DAVID OLUSOGA: And it must be special to look at that 313 00:17:09,372 --> 00:17:11,412 photograph of that little group of children. 314 00:17:11,652 --> 00:17:13,693 ANN: Well, it'll always remain special, I think. 315 00:17:13,993 --> 00:17:16,574 SPK_5: Just to say there wasn't more children in that photo. 316 00:17:17,638 --> 00:17:20,921 It's just a handful, isn't it? I counted the number of heads I 317 00:17:20,941 --> 00:17:25,084 saw in this Christmas photo and I counted at least 30 heads. 318 00:17:25,084 --> 00:17:26,785 There might have been a few more, I don't know. 319 00:17:27,105 --> 00:17:30,348 ANN: And I still try and keep in contact with Carol and Deborah 320 00:17:30,488 --> 00:17:34,511 and now we have found another two children that was in the 321 00:17:34,531 --> 00:17:39,715 home with us and in contact with them all. And I hope I'm able to 322 00:17:39,755 --> 00:17:42,998 keep that up until we all drop off our perch one by one. 323 00:17:48,018 --> 00:17:50,600 DAVID OLUSOGA: I've just left Anne and Carol and I've come to 324 00:17:50,620 --> 00:17:54,162 find out more about the modern legacy of this history with 325 00:17:54,442 --> 00:17:56,423 Chamion Caballero. Hi there 326 00:17:56,723 --> 00:17:57,203 CHAMION CABALLERO: Hi David. 327 00:17:57,884 --> 00:18:00,605 DAVID OLUSOGA: So this is a history that for all sorts of 328 00:18:00,645 --> 00:18:04,548 reasons was brushed under the carpet. But that's been 329 00:18:04,768 --> 00:18:07,569 changing, and it's been changing even faster because of modern 330 00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:08,310 technology. 331 00:18:08,890 --> 00:18:11,732 CHAMION CABALLERO: That's right. I'm the director of The Mixed 332 00:18:11,732 --> 00:18:15,534 Museum. We're an online museum and archive sharing and 333 00:18:15,554 --> 00:18:18,476 preserving the history of racial mixing in Britain. And one of 334 00:18:18,456 --> 00:18:22,339 the questions we get asked the most often is, can you help me 335 00:18:22,899 --> 00:18:28,663 find my black GI relatives? We usually pass those inquiries on 336 00:18:28,763 --> 00:18:32,466 to a wonderful organisation called GI Trace and they help 337 00:18:32,586 --> 00:18:37,189 the children of GIs find their families using DNA testing. 338 00:18:37,769 --> 00:18:42,412 What is possible now is through the science of DNA testing, 339 00:18:43,033 --> 00:18:46,971 answers can be found that were much more difficult to find 340 00:18:46,991 --> 00:18:50,513 before. When we receive inquiries, some of those come 341 00:18:50,533 --> 00:18:53,134 from what we call the original'Brown Babies', but 342 00:18:53,154 --> 00:18:56,136 increasingly we're getting inquiries from their children 343 00:18:56,676 --> 00:18:57,877 and their grandchildren. 344 00:18:58,798 --> 00:19:02,600 DAVID OLUSOGA: Those journeys to find lost fathers in this case, 345 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,942 irrespective of whether it's'Brown Babies' in the 1940s 346 00:19:06,982 --> 00:19:10,344 or any other form of family separation, they can be very 347 00:19:10,404 --> 00:19:13,405 challenging and the outcomes are not always what people want. How 348 00:19:13,405 --> 00:19:15,166 do you manage those realities? 349 00:19:16,086 --> 00:19:18,447 CHAMION CABALLERO: What we're finding is really helpful is the 350 00:19:18,487 --> 00:19:22,628 connecting of the people who have gone through this process 351 00:19:22,648 --> 00:19:24,229 to share their stories with each other. 352 00:19:24,289 --> 00:19:24,889 DAVID OLUSOGA: With one another. 353 00:19:24,949 --> 00:19:25,509 CHAMION CABALLERO: That's right. 354 00:19:25,509 --> 00:19:28,510 DAVID OLUSOGA: So even if it doesn't work out, even if the 355 00:19:28,530 --> 00:19:30,911 trace leads to a dead end or someone who doesn't want to 356 00:19:30,931 --> 00:19:32,471 speak, you've at least joined a community. 357 00:19:32,852 --> 00:19:36,173 CHAMION CABALLERO: Absolutely. Before we could get to talking 358 00:19:36,193 --> 00:19:39,454 about the science of DNA testing, we actually had to let 359 00:19:39,514 --> 00:19:43,356 people tell their stories. We really had to let people tell 360 00:19:43,396 --> 00:19:47,261 their stories because so many people grew up isolated, not 361 00:19:47,301 --> 00:19:52,067 meeting anybody else who looked like them. And so finding that 362 00:19:52,628 --> 00:19:56,695 they felt themselves outsiders. Even where they knew that they 363 00:19:56,815 --> 00:20:01,838 had black heritage, that heritage wasn't connected to the 364 00:20:01,898 --> 00:20:04,380 post-Windrush migration. 365 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,962 So people would assume that people were of African Caribbean 366 00:20:08,002 --> 00:20:10,964 descent, of African descent, but actually their heritage is 367 00:20:11,084 --> 00:20:15,766 African American, very different history, particularly the 368 00:20:16,647 --> 00:20:21,070 legislation against interracial marriage. So our current 369 00:20:21,090 --> 00:20:25,259 project, we currently have a group of around 30'Brown Babies' 370 00:20:25,379 --> 00:20:30,221 families members who have come together to explore the role of 371 00:20:30,241 --> 00:20:31,482 DNA testing in their lives. 372 00:20:32,222 --> 00:20:34,843 DAVID OLUSOGA: It is remarkable, isn't it, that eight decades 373 00:20:34,963 --> 00:20:37,384 after the end of the war, that there are still people 374 00:20:37,464 --> 00:20:41,706 contacting organisations like yours saying, I think, I think I 375 00:20:41,726 --> 00:20:43,287 might be descended from a black GI. 376 00:20:44,187 --> 00:20:48,949 CHAMION CABALLERO: Yes. One person told me that she's in her 377 00:20:49,369 --> 00:20:53,194 80s and people have said to her, you haven't found your dad. 378 00:20:53,374 --> 00:20:57,596 You've had a happy life. Does it matter? And she said, it 379 00:20:57,636 --> 00:21:02,657 matters. It will always matter. And I won't stop searching until 380 00:21:02,657 --> 00:21:03,077 the end. 381 00:21:03,257 --> 00:21:04,357 DAVID OLUSOGA: And it's a search for knowledge. 382 00:21:04,558 --> 00:21:05,878 CHAMION CABALLERO: It's a search for knowledge. 383 00:21:05,898 --> 00:21:06,478 DAVID OLUSOGA: And identity. 384 00:21:06,618 --> 00:21:09,279 CHAMION CABALLERO: And identity, very much so, of who you are. 385 00:21:10,159 --> 00:21:12,800 It's been really important actually that the children and 386 00:21:12,820 --> 00:21:16,181 grandchildren of the'Brown Babies' have started to become 387 00:21:16,221 --> 00:21:21,798 involved in this process. They are giving their mothers and 388 00:21:21,838 --> 00:21:25,899 fathers the confidence to speak out about subjects that have 389 00:21:25,939 --> 00:21:30,160 previously been shrouded in secrecy and shame. They're 390 00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:33,421 telling them that it's okay to talk about this. In fact, it's 391 00:21:33,641 --> 00:21:37,522 really important to talk about this. And by talking about it, 392 00:21:37,963 --> 00:21:41,283 you open up this history and you help preserve it for other 393 00:21:41,303 --> 00:21:41,804 people. 394 00:21:46,705 --> 00:21:50,706 DAVID OLUSOGA: So we are out in the garden, sat at a table in 395 00:21:50,726 --> 00:21:55,767 front of Holnicote House, Anne and Carol. You still feel, both 396 00:21:55,787 --> 00:21:59,468 of you, all these decades later, a sense of coming home? 397 00:21:59,468 --> 00:22:02,109 CAROL: Absolutely. 398 00:22:02,729 --> 00:22:05,770 DAVID OLUSOGA: You're here to keep alive the memory of a 399 00:22:05,790 --> 00:22:09,391 strange and remarkable chapter in the long history of this 400 00:22:09,431 --> 00:22:13,032 house. And when you walk around on this lawn and you walk 401 00:22:13,072 --> 00:22:13,932 between those rooms... 402 00:22:14,112 --> 00:22:16,533 CAROL: I can hear children laughing. And do you know what? 403 00:22:16,533 --> 00:22:19,134 I can never ever remember children crying. Can you? 404 00:22:19,154 --> 00:22:19,674 ANN: No, no. 405 00:22:21,182 --> 00:22:22,984 CAROL: Except when you hit them. Do you remember when you used to 406 00:22:22,984 --> 00:22:24,385 hit them? They used to cry then, didn't they? 407 00:22:25,966 --> 00:22:28,108 ANN: It was her it was, and she's blaming me. 408 00:22:31,010 --> 00:22:33,452 DAVID OLUSOGA: I think it's an untold chapter to this story 409 00:22:33,472 --> 00:22:34,493 about Ann's naughtiness. 410 00:22:46,243 --> 00:22:49,205 Thank you for listening to this episode of the National Trust 411 00:22:49,245 --> 00:22:52,968 Podcast. If you'd like to discover more about the story of 412 00:22:53,008 --> 00:22:55,750 Britain's'Brown Babies' and explore more first-hand 413 00:22:55,790 --> 00:22:58,712 interviews, you could start with Lucy Bland's book, 414 00:22:59,112 --> 00:23:03,355 Britain's'Brown Babies', or head to The Mixed Museum at 415 00:23:03,775 --> 00:23:05,897 mixedmuseum.org.uk. 416 00:23:07,198 --> 00:23:10,380 If this podcast has resonated with you and you'd like to 417 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,702 explore your family's connections to the GIs of the 418 00:23:13,762 --> 00:23:17,024 Second World War, you can connect with our experts and 419 00:23:17,064 --> 00:23:22,030 explore The Mixed Museum and GI Trace. And you can keep up with 420 00:23:22,171 --> 00:23:26,157 all episodes of the National Trust Podcast by following us on 421 00:23:26,177 --> 00:23:29,763 your favourite podcast app. That's all from me, David 422 00:23:29,944 --> 00:23:31,146 Olusoga. Goodbye.