[00:00:00] Narrator: This podcast is intended to support UK healthcare professionals with education. The information provided in this podcast is not a substitute for professional medical advice or treatment, and patients are encouraged to consult healthcare providers, including nurses, for any medical questions they may have.

or concerns.

[00:00:23] Hannah: Welcome to stoma and continence conversations from coloplast professional where health care professionals and experts by experience discuss the latest hot topics in the worlds of stoma, continence care and specialist practice. I'm Hannah Patterson, I've worked in specialist care and I'm currently the ostomy care associate education manager at coloplast.

This time we're catching up on WCET and ASCN 2024.

[00:00:51] Sam: I think there's been a real shift in society towards kind of the destigmatization of chronic conditions and disabilities of all kinds and I think that's affecting the stoma care world as well. Although they are skin and leakage experts, what I actually see them as is holistic stoma patient support.

[00:01:06] Hannah: Hello and welcome to the podcast. Uh, as the title said, we are catching up on all things WCET and ASCN, which was a fantastic event held in Glasgow. It was last month now, I keep forgetting it was back in September. It was a busy weekend. Long weekend, but absolutely fantastic. So many nurses there. I think we had over a thousand nurses from 50 different countries, which was amazing.

So lots of different people to talk to, lots of different interaction. And also during that time, we had the Colour Plus Symposium and my guest today, Sam, we were lucky enough to have Sam present to our symposium on the Sunday late afternoon, early evening. So I'm going to bring Sam in now. So hi, Sam.

Thank you for joining me. Hi, Hannah. Great to be with you. So, as I said, you presented at our symposium on the Sunday, and what a fantastic turnout we had. I would say I really enjoyed the symposium, but I was actually one of the unlucky ones that had to get removed because the symposium was that busy. I was actually having to sit outside the room, but I heard the buzz afterwards when people were coming out and really, really good to hear that.

So I'm really hoping that today you'll be able to have a little catch up with me and the listeners that weren't there about what happened at the symposium. But I suppose first of all, we should actually get you to introduce yourself if you could.

[00:02:34] Sam: Sure. Yeah, so I'm Sam, Sam Dunne. I am a independent research consultant.

I've got a company called Cohere, based in Edinburgh in Scotland, and I am a, what's known as a user researcher and a user centered designer. So it's my job to help companies in the private and public sector to understand their users more deeply, so the people who use their products or their services.

And then help, help these organizations use that knowledge to essentially create better products and services that hopefully improve people's lives.

[00:03:08] Hannah: Fantastic. So is this the first time you've worked within the Stoma Care aspect of things or have you had any contact with Stoma Care previously?

[00:03:15] Sam: Yes. So actually I've been kind of quietly working in the world of Stoma Care for about 10 years now.

I'm working a lot with, with Coloplast over the years, doing a lot of user research with people with, living with stomas all around the world, having lots of kind of. Deep, intimate conversations with people and observing them in their change routines and their daily lives and having conversations with a lot of, um, healthcare professionals working in stoma care as well.

Um, and then kind of bringing all that knowledge to together to try to find, find new ways to create innovations basically for, for patients and for stoma care professionals.

[00:03:48] Hannah: Amazing. I love the way you say quietly, because it doesn't sound like anything you've done. It's so amazing, everything that you've done.

And I'm really looking forward to hearing a bit more about the symposium myself, because I feel like I've missed out a little bit. I mean, I said the room was full. I believe there was over 160 nurses in the room, wasn't there? You, you know, more than me, you were standing up there.

[00:04:12] Sam: Yeah, it was, it was all a bit of a blur to me, but it was, yeah, it was really, really busy, a really good, really good vibe.

And it was, it was quite an interesting experience for me because like I said, yeah, I have been working quietly in the world of stoma care because that's not my usual day job. You know, my usual day job is going out, having conversations, kind of analyzing that data, trying to make, make sense of, of all these insights.

And it was actually my first time talking to a healthcare professional audience like that, which was, which was a real, real privilege. It was really nice to do and to kind of share some of these, these insights. Thanks. And obviously a lot of the stuff wasn't, um, you know, I made a bit of a joke at the start saying, you know, it's, it's weird for me to kind of talk to people who are experts in the world of stoma care and tell them, tell them what, what I'm, what I'm hearing.

Cause of course they're the experts, not, not me, but I think hopefully it was, it was useful for them to kind of get that outside perspective as well to see what, what I've kind of made of the state of kind of stoma care in a way and the work that they do.

[00:05:00] Hannah: I think sometimes it is nice to have From the outside looking in and actually putting more of a almost like a different slant on things because I think when you're working within it It's like most jobs when you're working within it You can be a little bit tunnel vision, you know what you've got to do.

And actually to have almost like that bit of peripheral vision can really be helpful to have somebody to give you that peripheral vision, actually go, Oh, and from what I heard from some of these nurses, there was almost light bulb moments throughout the room, I think.

[00:05:29] Sam: Oh, yeah. Well, hopefully, yeah, I think we've got a lot of good feedback.

I think, yeah, I think a lot of the work that I do is kind of helping people zoom out and see the bigger picture and kind of make sense of things. Now, you know, that was the title of the talk as I was making sense of, of the mental burden, trying to, um, trying to make sense of, of what patients are experiencing, but also make sense of what nurses are actually doing themselves as well and giving them a, a different, a different view on what they're doing to, to help them.

Oh, yeah, that is what we're doing. Maybe think about the work in a different way, hopefully, that's maybe useful.

[00:05:58] Hannah: Yeah, absolutely brilliant. So have a little, I know it's probably really hard because, obviously we've got only, we're only speaking now, but can you give us a little flavour about what you spoke about during the symposium?

[00:06:11] Sam: Yeah, that the main, the main thrust. It was, there was two parts. One part was about the, the role of healthcare professionals in supporting people through the kind of the emotional journey of having a stoma and the vital and really valuable role that the stoma illnesses play. And that, that was with a, a bit of a model that I've kind of been working on to help try and articulate what it is I think that nurses are doing to support patients so, so well.

And then the other part was about trying to understand what is the mental burden of living the stoma. This, this kind of word, this kind of term, the mental burden is something that I and colleagues at Coloplast have been talking about to kind of think about what, why is it that although, you know, stoma care has improved so much over, over recent decades and the, the, life of living with stoma has got easier in many ways.

It's still, of course, very challenging in many ways, and many people I talk with have, uh, report kind of living with what we call a mental burden, this kind of like, you know, fullness of the mind and a sense of being overwhelmed. Um, that can be, can be really challenging. So what I've tried to do is try to unpick that and be like, okay, what, what is, what is this big thing in the mind?

What is taking up so much space? Can we make sense of it? Can we break it down into smaller parts so that we can then address them? I'd hope, and I'm helping, helping a company like Coloplast kind of create products to address those different parts. But also what I was excited to do is share that with stoma care nurses to say, oh, these are the parts that I think you are already helping with.

But also if you think about it, In this way, maybe you can, it may be as useful for your, for your, for your care of your patients. So, so those really two parts.

[00:07:45] Hannah: Coloplast Professional offers a lot of educational material for specialists, nurses, and healthcare professionals. Visit Coloplastprofessional. co.

uk to find out more. One thing we constantly talk about within Coloplast Professional is that nurses don't always appreciate their own worth and what they do. They go, Oh, I was just doing my job. And you know, no nurses ever just doing their job and specialist nurses are very much not doing their job.

They're dealing with almost unique scenarios every single day. So you're never just doing your job. And the other one for me, of course, is the mental burden. Like you say, Coloplast at the moment, we've got a big focus on mental burden, especially mental burden when it comes to leakage. Obviously we've got Halo out now and it really is, again, those two points really resonate with me.

with me as a previous health care professional and also in the role I do now and having been an ostomate previously, there's such resonation with me on both of those points. So, looking towards the role, so what sorts of things were discussed when it came to the role of the nurse?

[00:08:52] Sam: We had a bit of a game during the symposium where I was kind of asking questions, I was putting questions or putting statements, sorry, on the, on the screen and asking nurses to raise a green card or red card if they agreed to them or disagreed with them.

And so I was kind of starting off by saying something a bit provocative, like as a stoma care professional, I treat stomas and skin, not emotions and worries. And of course I had a, a sea of red cards in there because obviously, you know, stoma care nurses are very involved in patients emotions and worries, but like you say, Maybe they don't always reflect on that.

They think, you know, Oh, yeah, I care for stonemasons, but actually they're doing a huge amount of the work is. Um, about emotions and worries and what I've heard in my, in my research is from, from speaking with stoma care nurses is that that can actually be a large percentage of the work that the stoma care nurses are doing.

Sometimes at some stages of the, of the patient journey and with some patients, it can be, you know, well over 50 percent of the work. You know, because some, some nurses are telling me that, you know, actually choosing the product and getting the product on that can sometimes be the easy bit, especially, you know, when you're, you're, you're very experienced, you, you know, these things back to front, but the psychological and the emotional side can be more, can be more challenging.

And so, you know, I was kind of discussing that actually this, this, this psychological side can be a bit of a, the challenging part of being a stoma care nurse, actually. And then another question I put up was that another statement, sorry, was that some days it feels like I'm a therapist, but I'm not actually trained as one, which obviously got a lot of green cards.

There was a couple of red cards, but I think maybe some people are trained as a therapist as well, which is, which is fantastic. But yeah, what, what I was sharing is that in my conversations with stoma care nurses, I often hear. I hear nurses say something when I bring up the, the, the world of, you know, the emotional side of this, the psychological side of care, nurses will often say something like, I'm not a therapist, but, and then they'll go on to tell me all these things that actually that they do this, that actually, to me, sound a lot like therapy.

And because, you know, they, they do recognize that they actually are really engaged in the, the emotional and psychological side of their patients lives. But there's also on the other side of this recognition that of course stoma care nurses are not psychologists. You're not kind of specialists. And sometimes it feels like you're kind of maybe being dragged into things that you don't really want to be involved in.

Like, you know, sometimes I heard some nurses say things like, oh, you know, it feels like I'm a social worker sometimes on top of my stoma care job. And sometimes, you know, patients can, one, the chances that they can get a bit reliant on that kind of therapeutic care and want to kind of talk for hours.

And actually, you know, stoma care nurses are very busy, short on time, and they don't have the space that a therapist or psychologist might have to talk about these things sometimes, which can be really frustrating. frustrating. That's, you know, that I, you know, we talked about how this, you know, always more and more pressure on nurses to, to deliver more in less time.

And that, that's kind of counter to the, this, this desire that they have to support patients emotionally.

[00:11:48] Hannah: Absolutely. I think getting that, just you saying nurse are being expected to, and I think this is across the board, across all specialities, ward nurses, everyone's being expected to do more, not being given any more time to do it.

And yeah, there's only so many hours in a day, so many hours in a shift and you've all of a sudden trying to squeeze more and more. It almost makes you sound like magicians, doesn't it? You've got to try a bit more into less, square peg round hole.

[00:12:18] Sam: Yeah, and where I kind of went with this in the presentation was that actually I think that the system maybe doesn't actually appreciate what stoma care nurses are doing.

Maybe because stoma care nurses almost maybe don't even appreciate the value they're doing, as you mentioned earlier, that sometimes that, you know, oh, that's just part of my job, but actually this is amazingly valuable work. And one quite provocative statement I put up was sometimes it feels like others see us as bag changers.

Of course, if you thought very quickly, a lot of, a lot of green cards all over the room. You know, because I've heard a lot of nurses share frustration with me that, you know, their healthcare colleagues can sometimes see them as a bag changer. They think all they do is go around changing stoma stoma bags all day because they don't often see the other dimensions to their work.

But actually, you know, it's a very. Very kind of multidimensional work, you know, there's this, there's training the patients, there's giving them consolation, helping them, you know, feel better having these conversations, there's the practical part of solving issues, not just changing the bag, but trying to figure out what's what's going on with the skin.

So many different things that other other healthcare professionals aren't necessarily appreciating. And even sometimes there's even more, there's sometimes more flattering training. perceptions from healthcare colleagues that, oh, you know, you're, you're the skin and leakage experts. And that's, that's nice.

Of course. Yes. That is nice. Skin, skin and leakage. That's true. But nurses are doing so much more than that. So what I, what I was kind of proposing to the nurses actually is although they are skin and leakage experts, what I actually see them as is holistic stoma patient support. And that, that's kind of something that I've created a bit of a model around to, um, to, to help explain what, what I think is nurses are doing and we're for nurses, but maybe also for, for, uh, their other colleagues as well.

[00:14:03] Hannah: I love that. I love that holistic word. And cause I think that's what care is. It is holistic. You're not just treating the skin, you're not just treating the leakage, you're not just changing the bag. You're doing all of it in a holistic way to patient centered, holistic. Oh, I absolutely love that.

[00:14:21] Sam: Yeah, and it jump, it jumps around.

I see nurses kind of, you know, I've, I've had the pleasure of, um, observing nurses, um, doing their work in, in wards on, on the ward and in in clinics as well. Just, you know, just sitting there like a bit of a fly on the wall. And I, I've obviously in recent years, I've been looking at what, what is the emotional side of care that they're doing?

What, how, how is that, how is that working? What's, what kind of percentage of work is that? And it's amazing how, how much of the role that is involved in that kind of, that kind of side of things. I don't know how much they can jump seamlessly between the practical sides and the emotional sides.

[00:14:53] Hannah: They're quite athletic these stoma nurses are.

[00:14:56] Sam: Oh yeah.

[00:14:57] Hannah: So now looking on to the second aspect of it. So where you looked on the mental burden side thing. So how did that fit in then alongside the first aspect?

[00:15:07] Sam: Well, yeah, maybe I should just take a moment just to kind of explain a little bit more about the, the holistic stoma patient support model, because then I can tell you how that fits in.

The, what I proposed to the nurses was that the holistic stoma patient support has these three parts, the clinical part, the practical and the educational part, and the emotional part. And it's these, these kind of like a three bubble Venn diagram there, where they're all kind of these complimentary overlapping parts.

And what I was proposing was that the practical side and the emotional side that nurses have. give them this unique role as what I like to call not a life coach, but a life with a stoma coach. So nurses can kind of like become these coaches to, to patients and kind of help them then tackle the challenges that are also going to present to them when they have, when they adjusting to life with a stoma.

And some of the nurses I spoke with indeed talked about themselves as a coach and said, you know, I need to provoke my patients. I need to push them to do things, to get back to living their, their life. And I talked about some, you know, some people were talking about the coaching techniques that they were using.

What the mental burden parts of the presentation was trying to do is kind of break down what is it that's in stoma patients minds that's taking up so much of their headspace. And can we, can we break that down into different, different parts to try to understand that?

[00:16:21] Hannah: Ah.

[00:16:22] Sam: The starting point for that is that what I, what I observed from talking to patients is that, you know, they're adjusting to so much when they're adjusting to life with a stoma.

There's, there's the, there's the fundamentals of adjusting to a stoma, you know, trying to, trying to get to grips with, you know, The bags, the ordering, the disposing, the changing, the cleaning, all, all, all these, the measuring, you know, the cutting, all these, all these little things that you have to kind of get used to.

But then actually what I find from talking to lots of patients, what I'm hearing is that, that actually the, the, what is really taking up so much of their headspace beyond just those basics is that their, where their, their stoma overlaps with their. Their health and kind of maintaining their health and the other health care challenges that they might have and also their life How did how do they fit this stoma into their life?

And how did they and what new challenges present themselves as they try to kind of get back to their their life? And that's the that's again this is another kind of three bubble then diagram on where those where the stoma overlaps with the health and the the patient's life And by their life, I mean their relationships, their responsibilities, be that work or parenting or grandparenting, whatever it might be.

And also their activities, like what, what do they do that make them, you The things that they do that make themselves themselves, where those, where those three things overlap is, is where all these questions and anxieties and problems and new challenges come from. And each of those, uh, areas I have, I've given a little name.

Should I, should I take you through those? Yes, please. So essentially where the, the stoma bag and the, the health overlaps, like I say this often, often some patients have got a lot of other health concerns coming from. Usually, you know, the, the stoma has, has. For, for some people, of course, the stoma can be a huge relief health wise that it can, it can solve a lot of problems.

But for some, it's also, it's a part of a longer journey with difficult health challenges and discomfort and pain and other things that they're worried about. And the stoma brings new challenges in terms of health. And that what I noticed from, from speaking to stoma care patients is that a lot of stoma patients have this new category in their mind, which I've called keeping my stoma area healthy.

That becomes a new, a new concern, a new worry. And you know, and that's about the often maintaining the health of the skin, right? Because as we know, that's so essential to keeping, keeping the bag stuck to your, to your body, having that healthy skin.

[00:18:48] Hannah: I'm thinking back to when I had my stoma. Absolutely. My skin health was something I never really considered.

And then all of a sudden it becomes a forefront of your mind. You feel that all stoma patients will know you get that, the itch as we call it, and you think something's going on under there and that becomes a part of your life. Not necessarily, I mean, obviously I was worried about leaking, but it was the detriment of the leakage as well.

What the leakage could do moving forward as well. It's not just. The embarrassment of having a leak, but what can the leak cause long term with your skin and things like that? And yet all of a sudden you become almost vaguely obsessed about this little patch of skin on your tummy being the most healthy patch of skin on your whole entire body.

[00:19:32] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. And so no, no wonder it's taking up so much of people's minds. And I think that, I think it can be quite baffling sometimes that some of the, you know, one of the, one of the quotes I shared in the symposium was from a woman who's saying that her, her, You know, she was quite baffled by the skin.

She just wanted to cry because it was so, she was so confused. And so it was so sore and, and, and she didn't know how to, how to help it. She was finding it really emotional, trying to kind of keep this, it was such a daily struggle trying to keep the skin healthy. And like you say, this, especially, you know, there's, there's, There, of course, there's a huge worry about the leakage and having, having a, having a blowout, but there's even that worry about, oh, what's a little bit of seepage under the base plate doing to my skin and having that, having that in your mind all the time, 24 seven is, is really, really draining.

So that's one category where the, where the kind of stoma bag and health create a new, a new health challenge in your life. And then of course, where your stoma and your, your life overlap, where you have this, you know, your, your relationships, your responsibilities and your activities. You have this new area of trying to like live the life that I want to and need to with my stoma.

Which, of course, nurses will fully know the challenges of that, there's all sorts of new challenges that can become quite, quite big parts of people's, take up a big part of people's headspace. So, you know, can I do the activities I'm used to? Can I go swimming? What do I have to think about when I go swimming?

How does, how does, what new challenges have I got when I do that? How, how do I get myself dressed? Can I, what can I wear the clothes I was wearing before? Can I get away with this kind of color? Can I get away with this kind of cuts? This kind of, can I wear the jeans I used to wear? Can I wear sports leggings?

All these, all these new questions and new challenges. And of course, intimacy is a huge one in this, this area as well as like, you know, how do, how do I maintain an intimate relationship with my, my partner? Or how do I, how do I date? How do, how do I go about these, these things? All these new challenges can, um, can just have all these questions and new challenges can just be floating around patient's mind, just sapping their energy all day.

And obviously, this is what nurses often do a fantastic job of helping patients deal with of processing these things and, you know, coaching them through these things saying like, okay, yeah, it might be might be difficult going on a date, but maybe you could try this and, and they may and sharing what I see nurses do a part of when I was explaining the life of the stoma coaching.

What I see nurses often do is kind of, you know, sharing stories from other patients that they've had and you know, confidentially, of course, but like kind of sharing that. Um, although, you know, some, some nurses have lived experience, but many don't. So they often share the lived experience of their other patients lives with living with the stoma.

And that could be so helpful having that perspective and that, um, um,

having

that information from people who've been there before.

[00:22:12] Hannah: Again, I'm laughing, just thinking back to my own experiences. I know I'm a keen horse rider. I was, I was pretty sure I was never going to get back on a horse. I did. I even fell off whilst having my stoma.

My main concern was lying on the floor, making sure I'd not had a leak whilst lying on the floor, then get back up. But it's amazing how I wasn't so much worried about the fact that I'd fallen off, had I broken anything. It was more like, okay, stoma bag, all right, yeah, we're okay. Nothing else is going on.

That's absolutely fine. And, Relationships again, and it comes back to very much that body image type of thing. And again, looking to what Colpast is doing, obviously we've just launched the black bag. So again, it's looking towards those, those different perceptions of body image. And I think body image, and you've probably found again, perceptions are different from person to person.

Somebody's perception of body image might be to make their bag as invisible as possible. Some people, it might be body image to embrace that. Some people might be just to match with what they're wearing. These different perceptions of body image. And again, that's almost. different prongs again for the nurses.

So they're having to almost find out what these individuals concerns are with body image. What is their aim? And it's, we've got all these areas and then you've almost got different patient types within the areas, haven't you?

[00:23:33] Sam: Yeah, what I find fascinating, I shared a bit of this in the symposium as well, is that I think there's been a real shift in society towards kind of the destigmatization of chronic conditions and disabilities of all kinds, and I think that's affecting the stoma care world as well.

And I think that all, you know, and I shared a picture of a great guy who's got his stoma bag hanging out at a kind of a street party somewhere. And yeah. You know, of course, not everyone's going to be that loud and proud about their stoma, but I'm seeing a shift over, you know, for 10 years working in stoma care, I've seen a shift of people being that little bit less concerned with hiding their stoma away and more, more interested in kind of integrating it into their sense of self and their sense of style as well.

So, so it's less about like trying to hide it from sight, but more about just trying to maybe not make it quite so prominent. But if somebody sees it, it's maybe not such a big deal. And I think that's where the, The black bag is doing such a great job is that, you know, people wear a lot of dark clothes.

They can kind of have it just, you know, maybe they've got some dark jeans on. Maybe the top of it's showing over their dark jeans, but that's maybe not a big issue to some people. And I think that's, that's interesting. I think people can, it's often, I see that people can live more of their full life when they're not so worried about hiding it away and more just about, you know, keeping it on the, on the down a little bit.

Exactly. Embracing it. You don't have to shout about it, but it's, if it's just kind of part of your, part of your style, part of your, your body, that's, that's, um, I could be quite freeing for some people.

[00:24:55] Hannah: Absolutely. And I think you're right over the last 10 years, especially, I think there has been a massive shift in patient perception, but also public perception as well.

I think a lot more is out there now. I mean, we're lucky enough that we've got celebrities, you know, the likes of, you know, Molly that was on the traitors. We've got Adele Roberts. We've got Louise Thompson that are embracing and Actively showing life with a stoma, there's soaps that are now in, we can't believe that a couple of months ago there was no mention of stomas at all on soaps.

Now two of the biggest soaps on TV in Coronation Street and Hollyoaks both now have characters with stoma. Yeah, yeah,

[00:25:34] Sam: it's fantastic.

[00:25:35] Hannah: And of course, then we have our wonderful ambassadors that work with Coloplast as well. And they're always doing their bit for creating that awareness of life with a stoma out there.

And this is where I think I'm on the fence sometimes when it comes to social media, but I actually think in some way, social media has created a real positive awareness for stomas. Absolutely. And I think that's been the real difference over the last 10 years that 10 years ago, social media was still really quite in its infancy, almost in a lot of ways.

Now there's the, you know, bigger platforms like Instagram, especially, I think, for things like that, where it's more protected. And I think it's amazing to see these people, I say, not just showing that, showing it out and about, but actually showing normal life with a stoma as well.

[00:26:21] Sam: Yeah. And what I've seen in my research observing nurses is that nurses are adapting to this growth in social media and the growth of the influencers.

And that's really fascinating to see as well because I see that that's where nurses play this really vital role as a life of the stoma coach because You know, you can't necessarily trust everything you see on, on, um, on Instagram. You can't trust everything you see on, online and nurses are really helping people kind of, they're, they're sometimes suggesting they go and look at these things.

They're like, Oh, you know, maybe you should look at this person. Cause they've got a similar challenge to you or a similar lifestyle to you or whatever it is. So sometimes the nurses are kind of pushing people towards these things, but they're also, giving this great balance to things as well. I'm saying like, oh, you know what they're showing that's, that's just social media.

It's not comp, it's not the whole truth maybe. And, and maybe you don't need to be quite like this person or you don't need to hold yourself to this particular standard or whatever it might be. So nurses are helping people navigate this kind of, this new world in some ways, which I think is such a important, important role.

[00:27:18] Hannah: See, they've also become social media experts on top of everything else. Exactly, exactly.

[00:27:21] Sam: They've had to, yeah.

[00:27:25] Hannah: But that's absolutely amazing. I mean, I'm so disappointed I missed it, but fortunately for myself and others that missed it, the symposium is now actually available on the website. Yes. So thank goodness for that.

So I will now be watching, but I feel like I've had a sneaky peek now. So thank you so much, Sam. But before we go, um, I was also lucky enough during the time at WCT ASCN, I caught up with the president of the WCET and he had this message for all the nurses.

[00:27:58] WCET President: Hello. Welcome. It's so fantastic to have you here.

I hope you enjoyed this Congress. We are so thrilled to have you there. To get more knowledge, to be able to share, to be able to learn from each other. So on behalf of WCT, I'm Laurent Chabal, the WCT president, and kiss and hugs.

[00:28:18] Hannah: So how fantastic is that and feel so privileged that he spent a bit of time out at the conference to have a word with little old me in the corner.

So thank you so much and thank you to all the nurses that attended. It was great to see so many of you there. So don't forget to catch up on our symposium on www. coloplastprofessional. co. uk. It is on there now. And once again, thank you so much, Sam, for joining me. And I look forward to really hearing how this model progresses.

Because to me, it's so important, so great what you're doing. And it's empowering for both nurses and patients, I feel.

[00:28:58] Sam: Yeah, hopefully that's, that's the idea. The nurses and, and everyone, everyone who's working with them as well to kind of understand the value that nurses are having and understanding the experience of patients.

[00:29:09] Hannah: Brilliant. So to everybody listening, thank you so much and we look forward to you joining us next time. Thank you for listening. To see more of the wide variety of education we offer, please visit collaplusprofessional. co. uk. See you next time.

[00:29:28] Narrator: Stoma and Continence Conversations is a Vibrant Sound Media production for Coloplast.