Pastor Brian Aulick (00:02.538)
Well, welcome everybody. It is so good to be with you today. And I'm so glad you're on Made to Advance. Before we get started with our conversation, I want to ask you favor. If you have appreciated this podcast, please rate and review us. That helps us get the word out about Made to Advance, and it also helps us bring on incredible guests like the one we have today. John Burke is with us, and he is the former pastor, founding pastor, of an amazing, amazing church called Gateway Church in Austin, Texas.

John has researched over a thousand cases of near-death experiences or NDEs, which led him to become the bestseller, the author of a bestselling book called Imagine Heaven. And then he followed that book up with a book called Imagine the God of Heaven. John has traveled to over 30 countries training and equipping more than a hundred thousand people. And John, it is so good to have you on May to Advance.

John Burke (00:55.336)
Thanks, Brian. Great to be here.

Pastor Brian Aulick (00:57.952)
You know, it's funny, I was excited and eager and looking forward to this conversation. And I was at a funeral that a friend of mine that you also know, Scott Rubin was doing. He was leading a funeral for his father and he was doing such a great job. And then right in the midst of his comments, he starts talking about your book. And I thought, I thought this is perfect timing. And he just had so many great things. It was really fun to hear him say so many great things about.

about it at such an important time. Do you get that a lot where people say it comes up at funerals and those kinds of occasions where people are trying to speak hope in life?

John Burke (01:36.07)
Yeah, particularly Imagine Heaven. I think because it changes the perspective, right? I mean, even Christians, when we think about death, we think of something looming and horrible. Even Christians have a horrible view of heaven, quite honestly. An endless, I've heard, we'll be worshiping the Lord forever, just like an endless church service.

Pastor Brian Aulick (01:39.904)
Yeah, right

John Burke (02:04.454)
And I'm a pastor and I'm thinking, I don't wanna do that. We have a great worship team, you know, forever. You know, so I think it gives people hope because it's exactly what the Bible has been telling us all along. But for some reason, we don't really imagine it that way. Because if we did, we would live for it. You know, we would be like the heroes of...

Pastor Brian Aulick (02:25.684)
Yeah Totally Right on

John Burke (02:30.958)
Hebrews chapter 11 who weren't looking for a country of their own here on earth because they were looking for a heavenly country

Pastor Brian Aulick (02:39.024)
curious, and it's funny because I had thought about asking this question, but you're—and I thought, I'm not going to write it down, but you're hitting right on a question I was thinking about, which is, why do you think there is such a malformed, kind of anemic view of heaven in the church? Because I think you're right on. I've thought about that many times, but it just seems so weird to me that we have this incredible perspective in the Scripture, and then—

it doesn't seem like it's captivated the imagination of Christians.

John Burke (03:11.26)
Well, I think that is a big part of it. I mean, I think our imagination, you know, when we imagine, it doesn't mean everything we imagine is imaginary, right? Imagination is a gift from God that I think is tied somewhat to faith. I mean, if you think about it, you know, why would you live for something that's less than this? You won't, and many don't, by the way.

Pastor Brian Aulick (03:15.038)
you know,

Pastor Brian Aulick (03:23.144)
is a gift from God that I think is tied somewhat to faith. I mean, if you think about it, like, you know, why would you live for something that's less than this? You won't. And many don't, by the way. And that's a problem. It's all in the scriptures.

John Burke (03:40.742)
And that's a problem. It's all in the scriptures. And my book, Imagine Heaven, it's filled with scripture. Imagine the God of heaven as well, but it's filled with scripture showing how what these, you know, well over a thousand people that I've interviewed are commonly experiencing, saying they're seeing and hearing and experiencing is all right there in the scriptures. But when you hear it through their eyes, suddenly it's like putting color

Pastor Brian Aulick (03:46.742)
Mm-hmm

John Burke (04:11.08)
on a black and white painting, right? It brings it to life. It makes it more vivid. And I think in the scriptures, you know, unless you, I I studied systematic theology, unless you do a systematic study of the afterlife, the life to come in scripture, you wouldn't necessarily see that. And then you have to use your imagination even beyond that. So, know, Randy Alcorn did, he wrote an excellent book on heaven.

Pastor Brian Aulick (04:16.718)
in the scriptures, you know, unless you I mean, I studied systematic theology, unless you do a systematic study of the afterlife, the life to come in scripture, you wouldn't necessarily see that. And and then you have to use your imagination even beyond that. So, you know, Randy Alcorn did. He wrote he wrote an excellent book on heaven. Right. And it's it's you know, it's more of a theological treatise on it. But but he did do it.

John Burke (04:40.25)
Right? And it's, you know, it's more of a theological treatise on it, but he did do a full systematic study and used imagination to go, okay, if it's like this, then what might it be like? So what I was trying to do is a similar thing, but help people see through the eyes of these people having near-death experiences, which I have come to believe, I didn't admit initially, but I've come to believe are God's testimonies.

to our globally connected world, showing that heaven is real, hell is real, and he is the God of all nations. And he always has been, and he's calling all his children home. That's what he did to provide a way for him through Jesus.

Pastor Brian Aulick (05:13.593)
Mm-hmm.

Pastor Brian Aulick (05:24.833)
Well, I can't wait to unpack a little bit more about just when we talk about near-death experiences. What do those usually involve? What do they look like? But there was one question I just felt like I had to ask before we even got into the kind of the meat of the subject. You started out professionally as an engineer. You end up as a pastor.

John Burke (05:45.102)
Hahaha

Pastor Brian Aulick (05:45.137)
Not many people think of that as a natural career trajectory. I'm going to get my engineering training and then end up as a pastor and pastor of a great vibrant church. How in the world does that happen?

John Burke (05:58.204)
Well, ironically, it passes right through the whole topic of near-death experiences, which is, know, it sounds bizarre, but I was agnostic. I thought Jesus was a good teacher, know, made legend, not the son of God. I thought God, who knows? I mean, there's no evidence, so probably not. And that was because I had a lot of questions and I had...

Pastor Brian Aulick (06:04.982)
sounds bizarre but I was I was an agnostic I thought Jesus was a good teacher

You know, made legend, not the son of God. I thought God, who knows? I mean, there's no evidence. So probably not. And that was because I had a lot of questions and I had very few really know people take the time to be able to answer any of them or even direct me. so I came to that conclusion going along my partying merry way when my dad's dying of cancer and someone gave him the very first research that coined the term near death.

John Burke (06:25.062)
very few, really no people take the time to be able to answer any of them or even direct me. And so I came to that conclusion, was going along my partying merry way when my dad's dying of cancer and someone gave him the very first research that coined the term near-death experience. And I see it on his bedside table and I started reading it. And I think they gave it to him because he was dying and this is hope that there's life beyond.

Pastor Brian Aulick (06:42.562)
And I see it on his bedside table and I started reading it. And I think they gave it to him because he was dying and this is hope that there's life beyond. And so I'm like, whoa, what is this? And I didn't put it down. I read the whole thing in one night.

John Burke (06:54.44)
And so I'm like, whoa, what is this? And I didn't put it down. I read the whole thing in one night. And here I'm reading about people, if you don't know what a near-death experience is. And I don't even like the term near-death experience, because the ones I study are not nearly dead, they're dead-dead. They are clinically dead. Their heart stops beating, brain waves cease, and yet they are resuscitated, sometimes after minutes, but sometimes after hours.

Pastor Brian Aulick (07:01.194)
And here I'm reading about people, if you don't know what a near-death experience is. And I don't even like the term near-death experience, because the ones I study are not nearly dead, they're dead-dead. They're clinically dead. Their heart stops beating, brain waves cease, and yet they are resuscitated, sometimes after minutes, but sometimes after hours.

John Burke (07:25.116)
Sometimes I think it's modern medicine bringing them back, but sometimes quite honestly, it's just miracle. But they come back talking, and this is what I'm reading about this, that they were more alive than they've ever felt in a place more real than this has ever felt. And then many of them talking about in the presence of this God of light and love, who is personal, whose presence they never wanted to leave. And many of them also talked about seeing Jesus.

Pastor Brian Aulick (07:25.364)
Sometimes I think it's modern medicine bringing them back, sometimes quite honestly, it's just a miracle. But they come back talking, and this is what I'm reading about this, that they were more alive than they've ever felt in a place more real than this has ever felt. And then many of them talking about in the presence of this God of light and love, this personal who's.

John Burke (07:53.252)
And because of that, I was like, wow, okay, maybe this is the evidence I've been looking for. Maybe this God Jesus afterlife stuff could be real after all. That's what actually opened me up to start studying the Bible. And so then I start studying the Bible, and it wasn't near-death experiences that led me to faith in Christ. It was actually the historical verification of the things God said in the Old Testament.

Pastor Brian Aulick (08:06.428)
No kidding

Pastor Brian Aulick (08:18.432)
Yeah.

John Burke (08:22.088)
I'm the only one who knows the future. Here's what's going to happen. He foretold, you know, what would happen in 1948 with the reformation of Israel after 1900 years scattered. And it happened that that for a skeptical engineering mind. I was like, I can't explain that. Like he said, I'm going to tell you what's going to happen. That's how you'll know I'm really God. Here's what's going to happen. And then the same thing for for all the prophecies of the coming Messiah.

Pastor Brian Aulick (08:48.302)
prophecies of becoming Messiah, fulfilled in Jesus. So that's actually what led me to faith. took me 35 years and researching over a thousand near-death experiences before I wrote about it in 2015. I wrote Imagine Heaven.

John Burke (08:50.92)
fulfilled in Jesus. So that's actually what led me to faith. It took me 35 years and researching over a thousand near-death experiences before I wrote about it in 2015. And I wrote Imagine Heaven back then. And then I wrote Imagine God this year and actually passed the leadership of our church to speak on this.

And the reason is because I really do believe that this is God's new global apologetic. I think he's raising up these testimonies. In this new book, Imagine the God of Heaven, I have interviewed people, 70 people having near-death experiences after being clinically dead on every continent. And...

Pastor Brian Aulick (09:19.808)
And the reason is because I really do believe that this is God's new global apologetic. I think he's raising up these testimonies. In this new book, Imagine the God of Heaven, I have interviewed people, 70 people, having near-death experiences after being clinically dead on every continent. Wow. How do you meet all these people? That's when I hear you talk and write about all these different people. You'll go country after country that you're talking with people. And I keep thinking...

How are these connections happening?

John Burke (09:51.43)
Well, I know. I mean, you know, they happened over 35 years for the for the first book. Interestingly, you know, when when I felt like the Lord wanted me to write the second book, I said to him, because I kind of quit. I you know, you know how hard it is pastoring a church. Right. And I had written I'd actually written four books. And after I wrote Imagine Heaven.

Pastor Brian Aulick (09:55.553)
Mm-hmm.

Interestingly, you know, when I felt like the Lord wanted me to write the second book, I said to him, because I kind of quit. You know how hard it is pastoring a church, right? And I'd written, I'd actually written four books.

and after I wrote Imagine Heaven. And even though it became a New York Times bestseller and was still selling, I just, said to the Lord, I think I did what you wanted. You called me to be an author, you called me to be a pastor. So I'm gonna do that unless you tell me otherwise. Because it was just a lot. And so then he did. And it was, you know, was past the leadership, I want you to focus on this. And it is because I do think he's doing something

John Burke (10:18.088)
And even though it became a New York Times bestseller and was still selling, just, said to the Lord, I think I did what you wanted. You didn't call me to be an author. You called me to be a pastor. So I'm going to do that unless you tell me otherwise. because it was just a lot. And so then he did. And, and, and it was, you know, it was past the leadership. I want you to focus on this and

It is because I do think he's doing something. I think he's showing the nations. He is the God of all nations. And when else could it happen? So after when he when he asked me to write again, I said to him, I said, Well, I had 35 years to research. You got to help me. And I'm not kidding you, Brian. People started reaching out to me with people from all over the world because because you know,

Pastor Brian Aulick (10:45.81)
Wow.

John Burke (11:10.832)
can't imagine having been out like six years. You know, I was pretty well known. So yeah, I mean, a lot of them came to me. I was kind of blown away.

Pastor Brian Aulick (11:15.212)
you know, was pretty well known. So yeah, mean, a lot of to me, I was kind of blown away. When we think of near-death experiences, for lack of better terms, since, I hear what you're saying, that this is not near-death, they're dead. And yet there are, but there are some common, it seems like, themes or ideas you've heard from what people experienced. You already mentioned some of them.

Do you want to expand on that at all as far as what people typically experience as you've had these conversations and done the research?

John Burke (11:42.246)
Yeah.

John Burke (11:48.368)
Yeah, absolutely. And let me let me say first for the, you know, the person listening, Christian or not, that may be skeptical of near-death experiences. I get it. And it did take me 35 years to write because, you know, there's there's some things that people say that can be confusing. And I had to realize that what is what I'm looking at is what is reported again and again and again. And not necessarily how they interpret

Pastor Brian Aulick (12:00.2)
it did get me 35 years to write because there's some things that people say that can be confusing. And I had to realize that what I'm looking at is what is reported again and again and again. And not necessarily how they interpret what they're reporting, what any one person interprets. And that's an important differentiation. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. Well, I was going to say, and I appreciate also

John Burke (12:17.308)
what they're reporting, what any one person interprets. that's an important differentiation because, no, go ahead.

Pastor Brian Aulick (12:30.134)
you talk about near-death experiences, you acknowledge ultimately their testimony, their someone's interpretation of their experience, but you do such a great job, I think, of saying, hey, we're always going to hold the Bible's authority over any stories of NDEs that we might evaluate and recognize that just because a person had a certain experience doesn't mean we're going to hold it at the level of, okay, this is

perfect truth because that was their experience. We're going to hold the scripture over it and maybe even interpret their experience in light of scripture versus going the other way around more so. But what were you going to say?

John Burke (13:06.364)
Yeah.

No, and well, and that is why in Imagine the God of Heaven, I bring together the case for the God of History, that all the prophetic fulfillment in actual history that convinced me as a skeptical engineer of the Bible's validity and inspiration, as well as how all these people from every religious background,

Pastor Brian Aulick (13:16.3)
together the case for the God of history that all the prophetic fulfillment in actual history that convinced me as a skeptical engineer of the Bible's validity and inspiration.

as well as how all these people from every religious background, it doesn't matter their religious background or expectation, they're describing the God of scripture. And that's what I'm trying to bring together and show for that very reason that...

John Burke (13:35.716)
It doesn't matter their religious background or expectation, they're describing the God of Scripture. And that's what I'm trying to bring together and show so that for that very reason that near-death experiencers come back and they're still people. They're sinful people, they struggle, they can either seek this God they experience or they can go away from him. I like to say it's a testimony like any testimony. It's an otherworldly testimony, but it's still a testimony.

If you interviewed 100 people on the streets of Jerusalem after Jesus' 50 of them would say, yeah, I saw him raise the dead. How can you not believe he was raised from the dead? And the Messiah, of course he's a Messiah. And 50 more would say, I saw Lazarus raised from the dead, but he's doing it by the power of the demonic. He's a sorcerer. That's what our religious teachers say.

Pastor Brian Aulick (14:18.434)
Mm-hmm

Pastor Brian Aulick (14:31.978)
So they both report the same thing. Right. him from the dead. But their interpretation is vastly different. Right. So the same can happen with near-death experiences. But what they're commonly reporting aligns with scripture. So I'll go through, I'll do it this way. Because two things that really started to convince me with a near-death experience is first, that they can actually observe things while out of their body.

John Burke (14:32.476)
They both report the same thing. Jesus raised him from the dead, but their interpretation is vastly different. So the same can happen with near-death experiences, but what they're commonly reporting aligns with scripture. So I'll go through, I'll do it this way, because two things that really started to convince me with a near-death experience is first,

that they can actually observe things while out of their body they should not have been able to see. And those have been verified. So when a person first says they die, they leave their body, they talk about how they have a spiritual body, they're still themselves, in fact, more themselves than they've ever felt. In fact, I'm amazed at how many of them, I'll ask them, do you know you're dead? And they'll say, well, at this point, I guess not.

Pastor Brian Aulick (15:01.902)
Hmm.

John Burke (15:26.14)
because I was one moment alive and then I was more alive. And they talk about how alive not just with five senses, but it seems like sometimes 50 senses blended to other other senses. Now, interestingly, when they're in the spiritual body, many times they're still in the room of their resuscitation. And as a result, when they come back, even though they had maybe no heartbeat, no brain waves,

Pastor Brian Aulick (15:26.378)
Wow.

John Burke (15:55.752)
They're able to describe what was happening in the room, who said what, things that can be checked out and verified. So for instance, this one cardiologist I interviewed in the Netherlands, Dr. Pim van Lommel, a guy comes into the ER, he had been found dead in a park 30 minutes earlier, brings him into the ER, they go to shock his heart.

tried to vent, intubate him, but there were dentures in his mouth. The nurse takes the dentures, puts them in the lower drawer of the crash cart. They intubate him, they shock him, they get his heart going again. And then, but he is still unconscious in the ER. So he came in unconscious, left unconscious a week later in another room he comes to, and he's complaining that you lost my dentures. And then he sees the nurse and he says, that nurse, that nurse knows where my dentures are.

Pastor Brian Aulick (16:52.525)
Huh.

John Burke (16:53.978)
And then he explained that I was up above trying to get your attention and no one would listen to me and described who was in the room and that that nurse had taken his dentures and put them in the lower drawer that cart with all the bottles on it. And that's where they found it. And that Dr. Pim van Lommel, who studied these actually wrote that up in The Lancet, Europe's most prestigious medical journal. So

Pastor Brian Aulick (17:09.26)
And that Dr. Pimpin Lommel who studied these actually wrote that up in the Lancet, Europe's most prestigious medical journal. So there have been actual studies done showing that these observations are 92 % completely accurate, another 6 % mostly accurate. We each may make five or six observations. Only 2 % in the study were inaccurate. Wow. this grounds these experiences in our reality.

John Burke (17:18.792)
There have been actual studies done showing that these observations are 92 % completely accurate, another 6 % mostly accurate. Each may make five or six observations, only 2 % in the study were inaccurate. So this grounds these experiences in our reality.

The second thing though that really convinced me is that when people blind from birth have a near-death experience, they can see. And they report the same things as sighted people, and they report things about heaven they would not have ever heard on earth. So I'll tell you about some of the commonalities, and I'll tell you about some of the scripture connections through Vicki, who is a blind person that I write about.

Pastor Brian Aulick (17:41.184)
Hmm.

John Burke (18:09.058)
She dies in a car accident. She's again, she's up above her body. As they commonly say, it's like, I was trying to adjust to this new perception I was having that site. And she said, she said, I knew Jesus and I knew where I was going. It was a chaos in the, in the emergency room. And she takes off, she shoots up through the hospital and out and into this tunnel.

Pastor Brian Aulick (18:11.118)
Mm-hmm.

John Burke (18:38.556)
that takes her to this place of incredible light at the end, and she comes out into this beautiful garden-like setting. Okay, so those are all commonalities. Leaving your body, a new spiritual body, which by the way, Paul talks about all this, right? And Paul may have had a near-death experience. In Acts chapter 14, it says he was stoned to death in Lystra, drug out of the city,

Pastor Brian Aulick (18:41.058)
right

John Burke (19:08.486)
and left for dead. And the believers rallied around him. He gets up, right? He comes to, and he goes back into the city, which, you know, why would you do that after you'd been stoned to death? And something miraculous obviously happened, right? But in 2 Corinthians 12, he says, 14 years ago, whether in my body or out of my body, I don't know, only God knows, right? Why? Well, because we still have a spiritual body.

Pastor Brian Aulick (19:10.968)
Right

Why well because we saw the spiritual body so I was taken up to the third heaven and saw and heard things and expressed So maybe that 14 years earlier was that time and listen

John Burke (19:37.096)
He said, was taken up to the third heaven and saw and heard things inexpressible. So maybe that 14 years earlier was that time in Lystra. Don't know for sure, but he writes about in 1 Corinthians 15, our bodies are buried a natural body, they're raised a spiritual body. They're buried in weakness, they're raised in duname, power. Same word we use for dynamite, right? And these near-death experiencers talk about these new powers

Pastor Brian Aulick (19:47.456)
But he writes about in first Corinthians 15 our bodies are buried in natural body. They're raised a spiritual body They're buried in weakness. They're raised in dunameh power

John Burke (20:06.946)
of this spiritual body, like eyesight that is telescopic, can see for thousands of miles, as if you're right up close. Communication that's pure, that's thought to thought, heart to heart. Now these things, initially I thought, well, that's kind of new age weirdy, you know, and that's not in the Bible. And then the Lord showed me. Well, actually, you know,

Pastor Brian Aulick (20:17.44)
Wow.

John Burke (20:32.386)
in Revelation chapter 21, John, Jesus' disciple, is taken up into heaven and brought onto a very high mountain, he says, looking over the holy city of God, and he reads the names on the foundation stones. How? Unless he had like telescopic eyesight, right? We have the mind of Christ. I think the way the Holy Spirit speaks to us today is

Pastor Brian Aulick (20:47.34)
on the foundation stones. How? Unless he had like telescopic eyes. Yeah, right.

Pastor Brian Aulick (20:58.192)
I think the way the Holy Spirit speaks to us today is heart-to-heart thought-to-thought complete communication, but as Jesus many times said you have to have ears to hear

John Burke (21:02.418)
Heart to heart, thought to thought, complete communication, but as Jesus many times said, you have to have ears to hear. So we have to learn to have spiritual ears to hear. And I think that's the communication you get on the other side. So these are all commonalities. Traveling is a commonality and sometimes it's through a tunnel, but sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's with angels and they're just going. It's like out through our atmosphere and out into

Pastor Brian Aulick (21:21.228)
and it's sometimes it's through a tunnel, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's with angels and they're just going. It's like out through our atmosphere and out into the solar system and the universe. they come, which sounds weird and bizarre-o until you realize this. I think what's going on here is imagine if we're living this three-dimensional experience on a flat black and white painting.

John Burke (21:33.158)
the solar system in the universe. they come, which sounds weird and bizarre-o until you realize this. I think what's going on here is imagine if we're living this three-dimensional experience on a flat black and white painting in the wall of your house. Okay, so we only have up and down and side to side. We don't even have the dimension in or out.

Pastor Brian Aulick (21:57.841)
Mm-hmm.

John Burke (21:59.218)
So death means separation. when our soul separates from our body. So imagine your two dimensional soul separating from that two dimensional plane and suddenly coming out into a three dimensional world all around you, a world of color and new dimensions. You could see what's going on in your flat two dimensional world because it's contained within. So that describes how they can see what's going on. Then you're pressed back into it and you have to describe

Pastor Brian Aulick (22:21.242)
Right. Yeah.

John Burke (22:27.974)
you know, three dimensions of color in flat black and white two dimensional terms. And that's what I think near death experiences are doing. So when they, when they take off through our atmosphere and out through, you know, the universe, well, it's all contained within a greater reality. That is both the in the Hebrew mind, the first heaven was what we can see of the heavens, right? The second heaven

is the spiritual realm all around us. The third heaven was the kingdom of God, where the holy city, the New Jerusalem is. And I think near-death experiencers are experiencing that exactly.

Pastor Brian Aulick (23:08.322)
I wonder, you know, as you're talking, John, back to even the question of why we maybe don't talk about this as much at the church level, or people don't have kind of an imagination for it, I wonder if

we many times as pastors are trying to put things in such practical terms, we're trying to make it seem—you know, on the one hand, you're trying to help make a relationship with God accessible, normal-sounding, etc. And when we talk about eternal realities, they're so utterly fantastic. I mean, we just—there's no—we can't even begin to get our arms around them.

So then even when we look at the passages, know, you see Paul talking about, I'm caught up in the third heaven. You're like, you know what? That sounds weird. I'm not going to preach on that because people are just going to be, what are we going? Star Trek here? What are we doing? You know, this is just, it just sounds kind of weird. Yeah.

John Burke (23:58.011)
Exactly.

Exactly.

And I'll tell you, Brian, I didn't preach on it that much. And when I did, I took a whole series to do it or, I would really, because you do have to build a case. Because most people don't, they don't live there, they don't travel there. And I try to, you know, I try to remind myself of that often, because I'm like, man, I just, this is weird. It is weird. And but it's so

Pastor Brian Aulick (24:32.492)
It's so compelling. Yeah. When you see and that's why, you know, I didn't speak on it that much until I put it down in a book. I would occasionally. mean, I actually gave my first talk on this in 1989 at the University of California, Santa Barbara. And I did it. I did an outreach talk just to to students showing that these things that are starting to be discovered align with what the Bible has been saying. And that's when I first started, you

John Burke (24:33.672)
telling when you see and that's why, you know, I didn't speak on it that much until I put it down in a book. I would occasionally. I mean, I actually gave my first talk on this in 1989 at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and I did it. I did an outreach talk just to to students showing that these things that are starting to be discovered align with what the Bible has been saying. And that's when I first started, you know, seeing all this.

Pastor Brian Aulick (25:03.407)
Why do you think that... well, I'm guessing that you've found that both folks who are people of faith and Christians, and also probably folks I'm guessing that are not particularly people of faith, have found your book interesting reading. I'd be curious to hear the reactions from both sides. How do people hear and respond to what they read?

John Burke (25:27.784)
I mean, what's been so encouraging is how many people have told me they've come to faith as a result or believers sending it to non-believing family or friends and they're like, this is the first thing that's opened them up. And I think it's because it...

Pastor Brian Aulick (25:28.652)
mean, what's been so encouraging is how many people have told me they've come to faith as a result or believers sending it to non-believing family or friends and they're like, this is the first thing that's opened them up. And I think it's because it...

John Burke (25:48.942)
It reads kind of like science fiction a little bit. I mean, it does, it takes your imagination and you just get kind of like, my gosh, like, even if you don't believe it, you know, I don't believe this, but this is, this is wild, you know, and like all the data and then hearing it through their, through their eyes, you know, of what they're describing. And then I think for Christians, it's helped a lot of Christians see, my gosh, this does align.

Pastor Brian Aulick (25:49.099)
It reads kind of like science fiction. It does. It your imagination and you just get kind of like, my gosh, like even if you don't believe it, you I don't believe this, but this is wild. Like all the data and then hearing it through their eyes, you know, of what they're describing.

And then I think for Christians, it's helped a lot of Christians see, my gosh, this does align. It's gonna be way better than I ever imagined. Or God is way better than, why don't I trust him more? That's been the majority of reactions. That's really cool. negative ones, I have had friends and even.

John Burke (26:18.184)
And it's going to be way better than I ever imagined, you know, or God is way better than, you know, why don't I trust him more? That's been that's been the majority of reactions and the negative ones. You know, I have had friends and even pastor friends who have said, I got to be honest with you, man. When I first heard you wrote that book, I was like. OK, if I didn't know him, I would think he totally flipped what?

Pastor Brian Aulick (26:37.685)
I gotta be honest with you man, when I first heard you wrote that book I was like, okay, if I didn't know him I would think he totally flipped. Cause it's so different than what I had written on before.

John Burke (26:47.986)
in the world, because it's so different than what I had written on before. And he said, and then I read it. And I was like, my gosh, because you see, I mean, you know, and so it does take a while to see the whole case.

Pastor Brian Aulick (26:59.5)
Because you see, I mean, you know, and so it does take a while to see the whole case. You've talked a little bit about, in other places I've heard you share, that people have visions of heaven, but also sometimes have visions or glimpses of hell. And I would just be curious, sometimes both in the same near-death experience. Tell me about that, expand on that if you wouldn't.

John Burke (27:22.599)
Yeah.

John Burke (27:27.576)
Yeah, I mean, in the new book, and imagine the God of heaven, I was kind of shocked at how many that the Lord brought me from all over the world had visions of both. And I was kind of asking him like, what's that about? Like, I'll tell you, one of the ones I love the most, and he's such a dear man, Santosh Akarji, who grew up in India. His father was a Sanskrit scholar, the Hindu scriptures were all he knew.

Pastor Brian Aulick (27:32.428)
many that the Lord brought me from all over the world had visions of both. And I was kind of asking him like, what's that about? I'll tell you, one of the ones I love the most, and he's such a dear man, Santosh Akarji, who grew up in India. His father was a Sanskrit scholar. The Hindu scriptures were all he knew. He was a manufacturing engineer.

John Burke (27:55.48)
He was a manufacturing engineer. His heart coded when his gallbladder erupted into his pancreas. He thought, he told me, I thought when you die, there's just nothing. Or maybe I'd come back as another life form. But that's not what happened. This brilliant light brighter than the sun, and they say brighter than the sun, like a thousand times brighter.

Pastor Brian Aulick (28:16.16)
this brilliant light brighter than the sun. And they say brighter than the sun, like a thousand times brighter, but not hard to look at mesmerizing. He said, comes to me and then I could see my body down on the, on the table. and he said,

John Burke (28:22.94)
but not hard to look at mesmerizing. He said, comes to me, and then I could see my body down on the table. And he said, I knew that this was the ultimate authority. I knew this was a divine light, that this was God, there was no doubt. And I fell in love with this light, because I knew he was there to protect me and take me someplace safe.

Pastor Brian Aulick (28:35.308)
I knew that this was the ultimate authority. I knew this was a divine light, that this was God, there was no doubt. And I fell in love with this light, because I knew he was there to protect me and take me someplace safe. And so they travel and they go through a tunnel as well. I have a whole theory on what the tunnel is now. I've changed my mind, but it's another thing. They come to a place where,

John Burke (28:51.016)
And so they travel and they go through a tunnel as well. I have a whole theory on what the tunnel is now. I've changed my mind, but it's another thing. But they come to a place where he says the light stops over this giant compound. Now, if you've ever, we built a hospital in India. So I've been to India many times. They're compounds, these big walled gated

Pastor Brian Aulick (29:12.852)
Hmm

John Burke (29:20.956)
communities everywhere. So he called it a giant, enormous compound with these very high, very beautiful walls in the shape of a square. This is exactly what he said. In shape of a square and inside, and he told me, said, you know, there your eyesight is, like you can see for miles and miles. And he said, was thousands of miles long. And

Pastor Brian Aulick (29:42.788)
and miles and he said it was was thousands of miles long.

And he said inside these gorgeous grounds, just beautiful and mansions, big buildings of otherworldly building material. That's what he said. And he was a manufacturing engineer. that's how he's describing it. And he said, I long to go into this place. knew this is this is the place every human wants to be. And he looked for a way in and he said, I counted there were 12 gates, 12 entrances in.

John Burke (29:48.488)
He said inside these gorgeous grounds, just beautiful and mansions, big buildings of otherworldly building material. That's what he said. And he was a manufacturing engineer. So that's how he's describing it. And he said, and I long to go into this place. I knew this is the place every human wants to be. And he looked for a way in and he said, I counted there were 12 gates, 12 entrances in.

but they were all closed to me and I looked at the one closest to try to find a way in and I saw angels guarding the gate and then I knew I'm looking at the kingdom of heaven. Now think about this, he's never read the Bible, he's only read the Hebrew scriptures and he perfectly described what John describes in Revelation 21 of the holy city of God.

Pastor Brian Aulick (30:38.828)
You said Hebrew scriptures, I think you meant the religion the religion was he raised as a Christian or you said Hebrew scripture he's the

John Burke (30:41.809)
A revelation.

John Burke (30:46.256)
no, no, no, I'm sorry. He only knew the he he only knew the Hindu scriptures are not not Hebrew Hindu. Yes, very important. Yeah, he only knew the Hindu scriptures. And, and so so he has this vision of heaven, the holy city. And he's looking for way and he looks and he's like, Where am I and he's up on this very high platform and he looks

Pastor Brian Aulick (30:47.662)
It's great I think, what you.

Hindu scriptures, there we go, important differentiation. Yeah. And so he has this vision.

Pastor Brian Aulick (31:07.849)
right he's looking for way and he looks and he's like where am I and he's up on this very high platform and he looks to his left and he looks down and he described an abyss of darkness that drop forever it looked like into a pit of fire that's how he described that is amazing

John Burke (31:15.27)
to his left and he looks down and he described an abyss of darkness that dropped forever, it looked like, into a pit of fire.

That's how he described it. And he said, I knew if I fell in there, I could never get out. It was hopeless. And so he, so he describes a vision of hell and he doesn't want to go there. He wants to go in the city, but he doesn't know another way. And he turns and anyway, he has this vision or he sees who he now thinks was Jesus on a throne. But all he saw was this man who was giant.

Pastor Brian Aulick (31:36.074)
never get out, was hopeless.

And so he so he describes a vision of hell And he doesn't want to go there. He wants to go in the city But he doesn't know another way and he turns and anyway, he has this vision or he sees Who he now thinks was jesus on a throne But all he saw was this man who was giant in a robe And he looks up into his eyes And he said he had eyes of lightning Wow, so he's describing the risen

John Burke (31:59.184)
in a robe and he looks up into his eyes and he said he had eyes of lightning. So he's describing the risen Jesus, right? Not the human Jesus, the risen Jesus. And as soon as he looked into his eyes, he said, my whole life was flashed before me. I saw all my sins, even the ones I had forgotten. He hadn't forgotten. And he falls to his knees and says, Lord, forgive me, forgive me, forgive me. And he thought,

Pastor Brian Aulick (32:08.626)
Right

John Burke (32:27.558)
the Lord was gonna throw him into the pit because that's what he knew he deserved. And when the Lord speaks to him, what he says to him, Santosh, I'm sending you back to the earth. And when you go back, must love, love your family and especially your daughter, she needs your help right now. And he said there was such compassion and mercy and love and tenderness in the Lord's voice that

Pastor Brian Aulick (32:38.238)
to him, Santosh, I'm sending you back to the earth. When you go back, must love, love your family and especially your daughter. needs your help right now. And he said there was such compassion and mercy and love and tenderness in the Lord's voice that.

John Burke (32:56.782)
he started to like warm up a little bit and he sees, he said to the right side of this platform and this throne, what he called a very narrow gate. It was so narrow, it was strange to him how narrow it was, but it was open into the kingdom of heaven. It was open to him, the only gate open. And anyway, long story short, he comes back and he is seeking with all his heart.

Pastor Brian Aulick (33:20.584)
And anyway long story short he comes back and he is seeking with all his heart. So he's everyday praying He said, you know, who was this god of mercy and compassion and love? was not like the hindu gods I knew and he was praying to know him

John Burke (33:26.438)
So he's everyday praying. He said, you know, who was this God of mercy and compassion and love? He was not like the Hindu gods I knew. And he was praying to know him. And you know, the Lord says in Jeremiah, if you seek me with all your heart, you'll find me. And two years later, his daughter is invited to sing in a church choir. She was a choral major in college. Santosh goes to hear her.

Pastor Brian Aulick (33:39.62)
And you know, the Lord says in Jeremiah, if you seek me with all your heart, you'll find me. Right. And two years later, his daughter is invited to sing in a church choir. She was a choral major in college. Santosh goes to hear her. He feels the loving presence of that same God as he walks into the church. And the message was on Matthew seven about about the narrow, the narrow gate. You must take the narrow gate and then Matthew John.

John Burke (33:52.348)
He feels the loving presence of that same God as he walks into the church. And the message was on Matthew seven about the narrow gate. You must take the narrow gate. then John chapter 10 where Jesus says, truly I tell you I'm the gate for the sheep. All who come in through me will be saved. And he went home, read the Bible.

Pastor Brian Aulick (34:09.454)
Wow Wow

John Burke (34:19.76)
and said everything I experienced was in this book and became a follower of Jesus. So I have 70 interviews I did personally with people all over the globe like that, where God, and here's what's fascinating, Brian, God gives them, it's kind of like parables. So he doesn't tell them, and this tripped me up for a while.

Pastor Brian Aulick (34:37.612)
God gives them, it's kind of like parables. So he doesn't tell them, and this tripped me up for a while. He's like, okay, well, if this God of light and love is really the God of the Bible, why didn't you tell him I'm Jesus, you know, I'm the way, the truth and life, go follow me, here's the gospel, I died for your sins, pray this prayer, know. Right, yeah. And that was very confusing to me for many years.

John Burke (34:45.992)
He's like, okay, well, if this God of light and love is really the God of the Bible, why didn't he tell him I'm Jesus, you know, I'm the way, the truth and life, go follow me, here's the gospel, I died for your sins, pray this prayer, you know, but he doesn't do that. And that was very confusing to me for many years until I realized, wait a second, Paul was not a believer in Jesus, when on the Damascus, he was going to arrest and.

Pastor Brian Aulick (35:08.15)
Yeah

John Burke (35:14.258)
persecute and even kill Christians when the same God of light appears to him on the Damascus road, Acts chapter nine, right? And he says, who are you Lord? And when he asks, he says, I'm Jesus who you're persecuting, but he doesn't tell him the gospel. He doesn't tell him what to do. He later sends Ananias, a person, a man, because that's his method. And Ananias explains it to Paul and then Paul still had a decision to make. He had a lot to lose.

Pastor Brian Aulick (35:38.907)
And Ananias explains it to Paul and then Paul still had a decision to make. He had a lot to lose turning from Phariseeism. Will I be baptized for the remission of my sin and follow Jesus? So these near-death experiences are like that.

John Burke (35:44.168)
turning from Phariseeism. Will I be baptized for the remission of my sin and follow Jesus? So these near-death experiences are like that. They can see this God of light and love. They can see the reality of heaven and hell. But when they come back, they still have to decide, will I seek? And when they seek, they do find. I mean, almost all of them do find.

Pastor Brian Aulick (35:54.602)
They can see this God of light and love. They can see the reality of heaven and hell. But when they come back, they still have to decide, will I see? And when they seek, they do find. Yeah. mean, almost all of them do. So it's almost like any I know you use the word apologetic earlier. It's like a pre evangelism, God reaching out to people and helping prepare their hearts and minds for something more.

Also, they have to take, as you're saying, they have to seek, they have to take a step, and ultimately, it's even good what you're saying as far as reaffirming what we see throughout Scripture, which is the primary way people step into a relationship with God, is through hearing someone tell them about Jesus explicitly. I think sometimes people think, well, if God's going to get to them anyway in a country that's hard to reach through dreams and visions, why do we need to go? Why do we need to talk about Jesus? And what I hear you saying is,

God is indeed generously giving experiences out to help people examine their own hearts and their own spiritual journeys, but still so important that they end up encountering someone who can share Jesus with them.

John Burke (37:02.48)
He wants everyone to know, like I like to say, nobody has perfectly kept the five pillars of Islam, the eightfold path of Buddhism, they don't have perfect karma, we haven't kept the 10 commandments, you haven't even kept your own moral law.

Pastor Brian Aulick (37:24.94)
Right

John Burke (37:29.128)
You ever said, I'll never, and you did? So it's like, God wants everyone to know that though we have all sinned and fallen short of his standard, of his glory, he has made a way that every human heart that wants him can have him and can not walk in condemnation, which is what most walk in. If they don't know what God's done through Jesus, they walk in condemnation and guilt.

Pastor Brian Aulick (37:32.488)
It's like, God wants everyone to know that though we have all sinned and fallen short of his standard, of his glory, he has made a way that every human heart that wants him can have him and can not walk in condemnation, which is what most walk in. If they don't know what God's done through Jesus, they walk in condemnation and guilt. But to know that there is forgiveness and relationship with God available.

John Burke (37:56.86)
but to know that there is forgiveness and relationship with God available. So yeah, and he's doing this all, I think though these near-death experiences are not even so much for that person. Because the interesting thing is how many of them argue with God, like even Santosh, others, they argue with God, I don't wanna go back, let me stay. And he says, no, I'm sending you back.

Pastor Brian Aulick (38:02.574)
So yeah, and he's doing this I think though these near-death experiences are not even so much for that person Because the interesting thing is how many of them argue with God? Like even Santosh Others they argue with God. I don't want to go back. Let me stay huh?

John Burke (38:26.704)
for a purpose. So I think these are testimonies for us and for the nations. You know, like a couple other fascinating ones, Bibi in Tehran. So in the news right now, right? So she gave me this testimony in Farsi, in the Persian language, and it was translated. She codes

Pastor Brian Aulick (38:28.78)
So I think these are testimonies for us. Wow. know, a couple other fascinating ones, Bibi in Tehran. So in the news right now, right? So she gave me this testimony in Farsi, in the Persian language, and it was translated. She codes, she's thinking the prophet Ali is going to come and judge her.

John Burke (38:53.306)
she's thinking the prophet Ali is gonna come and judge her because her son, who was Hezbollah, actually became a Christian through a vision of Jesus. And he led his sister to faith in Jesus. And so she felt like a total failure to Allah and to Islam. And she has this vision like that she's gonna have a horrible judgment, but the prophet Ali did not come.

Pastor Brian Aulick (38:58.734)
because her son, who was Hezbollah, actually became a Christian. He had a vision of Jesus. And he led his sister to faith in Jesus. And so she felt like a total failure to Allah and to Islam. And she has this vision that she's gonna have a horrible judgment, but the prophet Ali did not come.

John Burke (39:23.176)
giant man like just like Santos described, know, a glorious robe and light emitting from him comes and she knows this is a divine presence and he says, I am he who is. That's how it was translated to me in English from her Farsi. I am he who is and boom, she's in her body again. But she said with a joy and a peace she had never felt. It starts her on a journey.

Pastor Brian Aulick (39:23.542)
Wow.

John Burke (39:52.934)
She didn't know who this was, but discovered, well, this is the same God of light that appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in the burning bush that didn't burn, right? And says, I am he who is, I am who I am, I'm the eternal one. And so I see the same thing happening where it's like God gives them, it's all, like I said, Jesus was a parable loving God.

Pastor Brian Aulick (40:06.945)
All right.

Pastor Brian Aulick (40:17.484)
It's all like I said, Jesus was a parable loving God. He still is. He wants to know will we seek him and when we seek him with all our heart we do find him and these people do. Bibi did. Some now, interestingly some just know. I Heidi was a 16 year old Jewish girl who grew up with an atheist abusive father who told her every night, his three daughters every night,

John Burke (40:22.418)
And he still is. He wants to know, will we seek him? And when we seek him with all our heart, we do find him. And these people do, Bibi did. Some now, interestingly, some just know. mean, Heidi was a 16 year old Jewish girl who grew up with an atheist abusive father who told her every night, told his three daughters every night.

There is no God, your life is worthless. Jesus Christ is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind. And yet she believed in God. He was very abusive. She grew up in a very abusive home. And so she always believed in God and prayed to God every night and felt his comfort, like he was there by her bedside comforting her, giving her peace, helping her go to sleep. So at 16, her horse, she's in a...

Pastor Brian Aulick (40:52.69)
Wow.

John Burke (41:16.302)
horseback accident on the side of a mountain and her horse lands on her and crushes her. She's up 30 feet above her body. She knows she's dead. She sees the light over her shoulder to her right turns and she said, there was Jesus. But he was shining brighter than the sun, but I knew he was Jesus. And she said, I wasn't thinking what's a good Jewish girl like me doing with Jesus? I'm not supposed to be with Jesus. She said, no, I knew him.

Pastor Brian Aulick (41:17.454)
Wow

John Burke (41:44.034)
I knew this was the God I had always prayed to. And she just intuitively knew, and then in her life review, she sees that he was the one sitting by her bed when she was a little girl at night, comforting her, putting her to sleep. She saw Jesus. And then ironically, Jesus, not ironically, but Jesus takes her to God the Father.

Pastor Brian Aulick (41:49.356)
and she just intuitively knew and then in her life review she sees that he was the one sitting by her bed when she was a little girl at night wow putting her to sleep she saw jesus and then ironically jesus not ironically but jesus takes her to god the father and she has an experience of god this infinite light that she goes into and then she's sitting

John Burke (42:13.02)
And she has an experience of God, this infinite light that she goes into and then she's sitting and being held, she said, by God, the Father, but also Jesus, but they were separate, but they were one and she can't explain how God can be a man and God can be light and God can be love. She said, I can't explain it, but that's what I experienced.

Pastor Brian Aulick (42:19.262)
and being held, she said, by God, the Father, but also Jesus, but they were separate, but they were one, and she can't explain how God can be a man, and God can be light, and God can be love. She says, I can't explain it, but that's what I experienced. That's amazing. You know what strikes me as you're reflecting on some of these different stories is for the person who is skeptical or says, I don't know about all that,

You know hear one or two sure but then when you hear similar themes repeatedly and and such remarkable reflections it really after a time you have to say I Mean if you're gonna be honestly a fair-minded person you have to say maybe there's something here. Maybe this isn't just a random one-off weird experience. I'm curious when it comes to Christians having these kinds of experiences. It would seem to me that the more

your view of heaven, the more your understanding of heaven is compelling. And so you've had, let's say, near-death experience, and all of sudden you've seen things in a way that you've never seen before. How does that, or how should that affect, then, how we live today? I think that, obviously, eternity should be a big motivator for Christians, but as we said earlier, maybe not as much as it ought to be these days.

But when somebody gets that clear picture, how do you see them live differently because of it?

John Burke (43:47.962)
man, I mean, I think so many ways, you know, you know, one, when you realize that when we get to the other side, we will be in the presence of God, we will know even as we are known, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13, and people say that. And I've interviewed people who have suffered tremendously.

Pastor Brian Aulick (43:57.964)
is when you realize that when we get to the other side, we will be in the presence of God. We will know even as we are known.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13. And people say that. And I've interviewed people who have suffered tremendously. And they've said, how could a good God let this happen to me as a child? There can't be a God who loves me. But they did believe, but they didn't it. And then they get into his presence and they said, just like Joe.

John Burke (44:17.352)
And they've said, you know, how could a good God let this happen to me as a child? You know, like, there can't be a God who loves me. But they did believe, but they didn't, but they did, but you know, and then they get into his presence and they said, just like Job, I didn't even ask my question. I knew. I knew, like it makes so much sense.

Pastor Brian Aulick (44:34.525)
I didn't even ask my question. I knew. I knew. like it makes so much sense.

John Burke (44:45.692)
But, and so I would say, so does it make sense now? He said, no, that actually is knowledge that was veiled when I came back. Which interestingly, Paul said as well, in 2 Corinthians 12, when he said, he's taken up to the third heaven, saw and heard things inexpressible and things no man is allowed to tell. So there's some things that near-death experiencers experienced there.

Pastor Brian Aulick (44:52.867)
Hmm

John Burke (45:11.932)
And when they come back, they knew they understood it there and it all made sense, but here it still doesn't. But that alone can help us realize, then realizing what life in the city of God, what life in paradise is gonna be like. the beauty of mountains and trees and forests and valleys, all of creation, but more.

Pastor Brian Aulick (45:16.134)
and it all made sense, but here it still doesn't. But that alone can help us realize, and then realizing what life in the city of God, what life in paradise is gonna be like. Like the beauty of mountains and trees and forests and valleys, all of creation.

But more. This creation is deteriorating. That creation is getting better. It's the love and the light and the light of God that is filling everything. So it's literally this life. The best way to think about it is when you step from this life into the next life. It's not this drastic change. It's it's like life to as as one spine surgeon I interviewed said it was like going from life

John Burke (45:40.87)
Because this creation is deteriorating, that creation's getting better. It's the love and the life and the light of God that is filling everything. So it's literally this life, the best way to think about it is when you step from this life into the next life, it's not this drastic change. It's like life to as one spine surgeon I interviewed said,

It was like going from life into more life, reality into more reality. So we're going to live this life even more. That's the best way to think about it. And Jesus said all these things, but there's gonna be work to do. There are gonna be responsibilities. There are houses, there are families, there are parties, there are...

Pastor Brian Aulick (46:11.225)
Hmm reality in the more reality

John Burke (46:36.156)
you know, wonderful adventures and experiences and incredible things to do and see. He said all this. Many people don't realize it because like I said, they haven't put it all together in a systematic theology of heaven, but it's all there. And when you start to see that, the best example I can have is that we save for retirement because we imagine playing golf and

Pastor Brian Aulick (46:45.374)
Many people don't realize it because like I said, they haven't put it all together in a systematic theology of heaven, you're all there. And when you start to see that, the best example I can have is that we save for retirement because we imagine...

playing golf and doing my favorite hobby or traveling the world or, you know, having these things and these great experiences and not the burden of work and all that. Well, we imagine retirement well, so we sacrifice for it. We labor for it. But it's not the thing to sacrifice and labor for because it's going to end. what is coming is worth sacrificing for, is worth

John Burke (47:04.69)
doing my favorite hobby or traveling the world or, you know, having these things and these great experiences and not the burden of work and all that. Well, we imagine retirement well, so we sacrifice for it. We labor for it. But it's not the thing to sacrifice and labor for because it's going to end. what is coming is worth sacrificing for, is worth laboring for.

And I do believe that the way we live our lives now, though heaven is a free gift, relationship with God is a free gift. That's what Jesus did on the cross. It's a heart turning to him for forgiveness and leadership. Jesus made that clear. But the way we live our lives does affect how we enter into the experience of eternity.

Pastor Brian Aulick (47:34.783)
And I do believe that the way we live our lives now Though heaven is a free gift Relationship with God is a free gift. That's what Jesus did on the cross It's a heart turning to him for forgiveness and leadership Jesus made that clear But the way we live our lives does affect how we enter into the experience

John Burke (48:00.986)
And Jesus also talked about this a lot. He talked about rewards in heaven. He talked about whoever can be faithful with things that don't last will be trusted with things that do last. Don't just save up treasures here on earth, save up treasures in heaven. We think he was lying? Was it just a metaphor or is it actually, we'll really experience that. And we dumb it down, we dumb it down too much. We think, well, treasures.

Pastor Brian Aulick (48:03.422)
Right. I feel like... Go ahead. I feel like...

I feel like the more your picture of heaven is robust and filled out and filled with joy, it lets you do two things at the same time that are very difficult to do at the same time. On the one hand, when I see and have a view of a more physical revelation in 21, 22, new heavens, new earth, kind of heaven, I can appreciate the joys that this life has to offer. I can say this is a foretaste of the good things that are to come.

they won't even compare to how great things are that will be to come, but I can enjoy things. That being said, I can also not be addicted to things, and when Jesus talks about sacrificing for the kingdom of God, I can realize what is in eternity is going to be so much better, so it's worth the costs that I'm paying now. And I just think it's tough because sometimes I think that when people think of heaven, they get into this nothing-in-this-world-matters kind of a mode, and

And then, you know, there are others who are everything in this world matters. And really, I don't think about heaven. I think when you really got a good balanced picture of heaven, maybe you can do both. You think that's true. Enjoy things of this world and at the same time have a detachment from this world that lets you to pursue the kingdom of God with a newfound freedom and passion.

John Burke (49:46.064)
Yeah, it's not an either or, it is a perspective. And that's what I think the right view of heaven and the right view of God, by the way, is that all of life is a gift from God. My favorite chapter in the new book, Imagine the God of Heaven, is doing life with the God of all joy.

And what I'm showing is that we don't really believe that God could laugh, that God could have a sense of humor, that God could understand us, that God could be relatable like a best friend. And by the way, if you don't believe this, He is your best friend because no one else has been through every high and every low with you and is still crazy enamored with you.

Pastor Brian Aulick (50:14.476)
And what I'm showing is that we don't really believe that God could laugh. That God could have a sense of humor. That could understand us. That God could be relatable like a best friend. And by the way, if you don't believe this, he is your best friend because no one else has been through...

That's good.

John Burke (50:43.334)
and gets you better than you get yourself, and even laughs at your bad jokes. And I think for a lot of Christians, we put God in a box and we think, well, no, I don't see anything in scripture where it says Jesus laughed. Well, okay, who do you think gave you laughter? The devil? I mean, it's your creator. Psychologists tell us laughter is a higher form of communication.

Pastor Brian Aulick (51:06.996)
I mean, it's your creator, right? Psychologists tell us laughter is a higher form of communication. It's a very higher type of communication. but near-death experiencers talk about experiencing the joy of God, experiencing this, the delights of heaven that God actually delights to delight us that he gives. I interviewed two commercial airline pilots who had near-death experiences. OK.

John Burke (51:13.2)
It's a very higher type of communication. But near-death experiencers talk about experiencing the joy of God, experiencing the delights of heaven, that God actually delights to delight us. I interviewed two commercial airline pilots who had near-death experiences, okay? Two different ones, didn't even know each other. Both of them describe God giving them

Pastor Brian Aulick (51:36.93)
Two different ones didn't even know each other. Both of them describe God giving them a fly over of the holy city. And both of them said, I guess because I was a pilot and he knew I would enjoy like a like I blown into, you know, hundreds of cities all over the world.

John Burke (51:42.874)
a flyover of the Holy City. And both of them said, I guess because I was a pilot and he knew I would enjoy like I'd flown into, you know, hundreds of cities all over the world. And, you know, God delights to give us joy. He is the God of all joy. And as C.S. Lewis says, joy is the serious business of heaven.

Pastor Brian Aulick (51:59.504)
and you know God delights to give us joy. He is the God of all joy and as C.S. Lewis says joy is the serious business of heaven. But I think Christians don't have that view and as a result back to earth.

John Burke (52:11.068)
But I think Christians don't have that view. And as a result, back to earth, we don't believe that God is the one who gives us pleasures. And so we don't thank him for it. We don't let him into it. You know, I have little granddaughters now, and you when I had little kids, it was the same thing. I love to give them good gifts and then watch them enjoy it and enjoy it with them. And you think I'm better than God?

Pastor Brian Aulick (52:39.248)
Right, right.

John Burke (52:39.804)
No, I was creating his image and you were too. just realizing that God is so much better than we've ever imagined. And what it does is it helps you realize that I can thank him and enjoy the things he's given me here more by seeking him than by turning away from him. And as I pay attention in the little moments and I thank him and I respond to his spirit,

Pastor Brian Aulick (52:44.748)
just realizing that God is so much better than we've ever imagined. And what it does is it helps you realize that I can thank him and enjoy the things he's given me here more by seeking him than by turning away from him. And as I pay attention in the little moments, and I thank him and I respond to his spirit, and I think about others.

John Burke (53:09.904)
And I think about others. You know what the life review shows us is that Matthew 25 is absolutely true. But the life review is Matthew 25, where they experience watching how every little act of kindness, the ripple effect it had through humanity, you know, or every little act of meanness, you know, or blow up, it an effect. And they come back saying God is love.

Pastor Brian Aulick (53:30.468)
You know, or every little act of meanness, you know, or blow up. has an effect. they come back saying God is love and how we love or treat one another is what God, what matters most to God. So I think what these do is it just takes the scriptures and it like lights them up with a neon light like, no, I meant it. Right.

John Burke (53:39.642)
and how we love or treat one another is what matters most to God. So I think what these do is it just takes the scriptures and it lights them up with a neon light like, no, I meant it.

Pastor Brian Aulick (53:57.28)
Well, that's what I when I think of the purpose of our podcast, Made to Advance, we really want to equip and inspire people to live into their best futures. And of course, you don't get much of a better future than heaven. And I hope that as people are listening today, that they're really able to use this vision of heaven and hopefully, you know, pick up your books and be compelled to take it further, because the more our imagination is captivated by what is to come,

I feel like the better prepared we are to live faithfully and the life forgiven in the present. And all of a sudden now investing in relationships looks different and more valuable. All of a sudden the money that maybe I want to clutch and cling to, I'm a little bit more willing to just freely give and invest in the kingdom because I realize there's so much more and so much better on the other side. So that's what I, part of for me being able to have this conversation with you today is

just to inspire people a little bit with the goodness of God and what he has in front of them. maybe this is last question. Well, no, two questions. First, I was going to ask you, between the two books, Imagine Heaven, Imagine the God of Heaven, where do you advise a person if they could pick one to read first? Which one would you say to read first?

John Burke (55:12.828)
No.

John Burke (55:16.7)
Well, that's really hard. mean, imagine heaven gives all the commonalities of the heavenly experience and a little about the God of heaven. Whereas imagine the God of heaven, it's going to help you just fall crazy in love with God if you're not already, but trust him more. You'll be blown away by that.

Pastor Brian Aulick (55:19.742)
Yeah

Pastor Brian Aulick (55:23.468)
all the commonalities of the heavenly experience and a little about the God of heaven.

Pastor Brian Aulick (55:34.732)
Imagine the God of heaven it's going to help you just Fall crazy in love with God if you're not already but trust him more mm-hmm You'll be blown away by that and I would say If you you know if you're a believer and you haven't read either probably start with imagine heaven okay, and if you're not a believer start with the first Well, or no excuse me imagine heaven is the first so you're saying if you're

John Burke (55:45.606)
And I would say.

If you're a believer and you haven't read either, probably start with Imagine Heaven.

John Burke (55:57.136)
Well, you mean, we're to imagine God?

Pastor Brian Aulick (56:01.066)
Yeah, you're saying, would you say, you're saying if you're a believer, start with Imagine Heaven? Yeah. Yeah.

John Burke (56:07.142)
Yeah, I mean, if you want to see the totality, you know, like I talk about things like rewards in heaven and what will we do forever and time and how it works on the other side and what our bodies will be like, what relationship will be like, you know, what explore.

Pastor Brian Aulick (56:22.444)
what our bodies will be like, what relationship will be like. If somebody's not a believer yet, John, which book would you say for them? If they're just asking questions, they're not sure what they think about Jesus, would you start with the same?

John Burke (56:37.126)
Well, you could accept that. I'm really making a case in the first six or seven chapters of Imagine the God of Heaven. I'm bringing together both near-death experience research. In chapter two, I go through the 10 points of evidence that convince me that these near-death experiences are worth listening to. But then in chapter three and four, I go through some of the historical prophetic fulfillment that this God of history

Pastor Brian Aulick (56:41.182)
in a case in the first six or seven.

Pastor Brian Aulick (56:51.553)
In chapter two, I go through the 10 points of evidence that convince me that these near-death experiences are worth listening to. But then in chapter three and four, I go through some of the historical prophetic fulfillment that this God of history is the same as the God revealing himself to all the nations. And then you get to hear it from all the nations. So a lot of people who are like, they're really put off by Christians, you know, you're...

John Burke (57:06.138)
is the same as the God revealing himself to all the nations, and then you get to hear it from all the nations. So a lot of people who are like, they're really put off by Christians, know, you're, you know, Jesus can't be the only way and you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, they'll hear, I think a big part of that is they misunderstand. Jesus being the only way makes the only way.

Pastor Brian Aulick (57:19.692)
you know, Jesus can't be the only way and, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, they'll hear. think I think a big part of that is they misunderstand Jesus being the only way makes the only way, but it makes a way for everyone. Otherwise, we're just left up to our, you know, try hard religion. Right. Right. Yeah, it's funny how that's well, that's that's helpful. And yeah, it is it is a funny

John Burke (57:34.29)
But it makes a way for everyone. Otherwise, we're just left up to our try-hard religions.

So yeah, that's.

Pastor Brian Aulick (57:49.805)
how on the one hand Christianity is rightly viewed very exclusive insofar as Jesus claims to be the only way, but He also says, you're willing to trust Me, anyone of any background can step into My path, so without having to check off all kinds of boxes of religious works and good deeds. So, it's weird because, you know, Christianity is on the one hand very exclusive,

And very welcoming to anybody who's just willing to give their hearts to him now i'm gonna i'm gonna end on after this significant Massive topic the goodness of god heaven eternity all of it i'm gonna end with what probably feels like a very small question But it's the number one question I get from people and I bet you do too when it comes to what is any kind of afterlife experience going to be like? And that is Are my pets going to be there? Yes

John Burke (58:42.568)
That's the number one question I get.

Pastor Brian Aulick (58:46.036)
Yeah, so for just for fun, it seems like a weird question to end on, but because I know it's the number one question, let's just tackle it. What do you think about pets? Yeah. It is harder, but it's more important. No. Yes, absolutely.

John Burke (58:54.874)
I know, I'm like, you guys need to learn to love people more. It is harder. It is harder, but it's more important. No, yes, absolutely. I mean, I interviewed Karina, this woman from Columbia, and she first has a hellish experience and is praying the Lord's Prayer, but fervently, and he pulls her out and brings her up and...

Pastor Brian Aulick (59:22.252)
He pulls her out and brings her up and she sees this blinding light and she says, send me back to hell, I'm not worthy. I know I'm filthy, I'm not worthy. And he says, no, you are. Come, I love you. And she's still skeptical. And she said, then Lord, show me some of my, show me some of the people I love who have gone on before me. And he said, look to your right.

John Burke (59:24.248)
She sees this blinding light and she says, send me back to hell. I'm not worthy. I know I'm filthy. I'm not worthy. And he says, no, you are come. I love you. And she's still skeptical. And she said, then Lord, show me some of my show me some of the people I love who have gone on before me. And he said, look to your right. And there is Max, her little dog who had died earlier that year, and then her other dog who had died years later.

Pastor Brian Aulick (59:46.772)
And there is Max, her little dog who had died earlier that year, and her other dog who had died years later. And in she goes. Randy K, who's a CEO. He dies of a pulmonary embolism, 30 minutes dead. He's there with Jesus holding him and then they're walking. And at one point.

John Burke (59:54.408)
And, and in she goes. Randy K, who is a CEO, he dies of a pulmonary embolism, 30 minutes dead. He's there with Jesus holding him and then they're walking. And at one point, Jesus, Jesus said, Look, and he looks across the field. And here comes

who, he didn't have any friends when he was a kid, the child growing up, because he was bullied, but he had this one little dog, Casey, who would jump up on him and just lick him like a lollipop every day when he came home from school. Across this field comes Casey, the dog who had died, jumps up on him and licks him like a lollipop. And Jesus said to him, see, beloved, I give you the desires of your heart.

Pastor Brian Aulick (01:00:43.882)
See beloved, I give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37, four, they'll yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart. So yes, and some Christians, I don't understand why, but if no, animals don't have souls, they're not gonna be there in heaven, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you didn't read the Bible.

John Burke (01:00:49.544)
That's Psalm 37, four, delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart. So yes, and you know, and some Christians, I don't understand why, but they say, no, animals don't have souls, they're not gonna be there in heaven, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you didn't read the Bible. There are definitely gonna be lions and lambs and eagles, and Jesus is gonna be riding a horse, I guess, without a soul, but it's all there in the Bible.

Pastor Brian Aulick (01:01:06.57)
Yeah.

Well, that is the funny thing. And it's back to your point. This is where I think spending some time in your books and you mentioned Randy Alcorn does a great job talking, tackling some of these same subjects. We don't we have these little isolated verses, and sometimes you don't realize how big of a theme animals are in the Bible when describing eternity. really is. I mean, some of those primary images, the lying laying down with the lamb, this idea that animals that have historically been in conflict, operating in peace.

your option. Now, maybe some say, well, it's all figurative. Man, I mean, you really have to put a lot in the figurative category if you're going to do that, because it sure doesn't sound like it's all figurative when you read it in the text. So, I think that we've just got to sit with some of these verses, and that's why I really want to encourage anyone who's listening or watching to pick up your books and take a good read, because the more we can soak our souls in the Scriptures and

other people's experiences that speak to those or testify to those same scriptures, the more we can have this robust imagination when it comes to the goodness of God and the goodness of the plan He has for us. So, I just thank you so much, John, for your work in this area, and I know that stepping away from the church that you founded and led for so many years is just really an incredible church, and I've respected your work in Austin for so long.

And I really appreciate in some ways your example of your hope in the God of heaven and being willing to step away from such a great ministry and a great leadership position to go full time in this kind of ministry. What you're doing is really a great example of everything we just talked about. You've got a vision of the God of heaven and you're going to pursue Him even if there could have been some rewards of different kinds from staying put. So thank you so much for your ministry.

John Burke (01:03:02.098)
Well, thank you, Brian. I appreciate it.

Pastor Brian Aulick (01:03:04.448)
Well, I hope we get the time to talk sometime in the future, but I know this is going to be an encouragement to many again. Pick up John's books. You can find them online. He's on social, all those good things. John, anything you want to say about how people can look you up?

John Burke (01:03:16.344)
ImagineHeaven.net is the website you can go to. ImagineHeaven.net.

Pastor Brian Aulick (01:03:20.628)
Okay. All right, great. Well, thanks so much for this conversation and we'll cross paths soon.

John Burke (01:03:29.36)
All right, thanks, Brian.

Pastor Brian Aulick (01:03:32.768)
Good, good. That's fantastic. Well, thank you. I really appreciate you spending time with me, John. And it's so fun how paths cross with literally the...

John Burke (01:03:43.173)
It really is.