INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection
INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection
INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work
INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young people
INTRO: safe.
PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.
PRODUCER: Being exposed to domestic abuse is a form of
PRODUCER: child abuse. Children don't need to be directly
PRODUCER: involved for this to be the case.
PRODUCER: They may have seen or heard or experienced the
PRODUCER: effects of domestic abuse in the family.
PRODUCER: This can have a big impact on a child's
PRODUCER: behaviour, brain development, education outcomes
PRODUCER: and overall wellbeing.
PRODUCER: In 2023-24, Childline counsellors
PRODUCER: delivered over 1,000 counselling sessions to
PRODUCER: children and young people whose main concern was
PRODUCER: domestic abuse.
PRODUCER: They discussed feeling scared, worried, unhappy,
PRODUCER: angry and helpless. In the same time
PRODUCER: period, the NSPCC helpline received over 6,800
PRODUCER: child welfare contacts where the main concern
PRODUCER: was domestic abuse.
PRODUCER: This episode of the podcast, recorded in
PRODUCER: September 2024, brings together representatives
PRODUCER: from the NSPCC Helpline and Childline
PRODUCER: to talk about the different ways domestic abuse
PRODUCER: affects babies, children and young people, and
PRODUCER: how you can spot the signs and support children
PRODUCER: who are affected.
PRODUCER: Here's Paddi Vint to introduce the discussion.
PADDI VINT: Hello there, my name is Paddi Vint and I'm
PADDI VINT: Development and Quality Manager within the
PADDI VINT: NSPCC Helpline.
PADDI VINT: I oversee a domestic abuse project.
PADDI VINT: I've got Cormac Nolan with me today.
CORMAC NOLAN: Hello, I'm Cormac Nolan and I'm one of the
CORMAC NOLAN: service heads in Childline, the 24 hour,
CORMAC NOLAN: seven day a week, 365 day a year
CORMAC NOLAN: helpline for children and young people.
PADDI VINT: I also have Joanne McKenna,
PADDI VINT: one of our domestic abuse practice advisors —
PADDI VINT: or DAPAs as we refer to them on the Helpline —
PADDI VINT: with me.
JOANNE MCKENNA: Hi Paddi. As you said, I'm Joanne McKenna
JOANNE MCKENNA: or Jo McKenna, and I'm one of the DAPAs —
JOANNE MCKENNA: domestic abuse practice advisors — on the
JOANNE MCKENNA: Helpline. And my role on the Helpline is
JOANNE MCKENNA: we offer support to the Helpline
JOANNE MCKENNA: practitioners in terms of domestic abuse
JOANNE MCKENNA: calls. We have small caseloads
JOANNE MCKENNA: of high-risk domestic abuse cases, and we
JOANNE MCKENNA: also deliver training around domestic
JOANNE MCKENNA: abuse across the Helpline.
PADDI VINT: Sometimes it can be really helpful for
PADDI VINT: professionals to marry up what children
PADDI VINT: are telling us alongside their behaviour, and
PADDI VINT: that's why I felt it was really important to
PADDI VINT: try and do a joint podcast with Childline,
PADDI VINT: who are clearly best-placed to be able to shed
PADDI VINT: some light on the feelings and emotions that
PADDI VINT: children are telling their Childline
PADDI VINT: counsellors. And to marry that alongside what
PADDI VINT: adults are telling us from Jo in her DA work
PADDI VINT: on the Helpline.
PADDI VINT: But I'm also really conscious that some people
PADDI VINT: listening to the podcast might not actually
PADDI VINT: know who even calls the Helpline or what
PADDI VINT: the Helpline's about.
PADDI VINT: Jo, would you mind giving us a bit of an
PADDI VINT: overview of who contacts the helpline?
JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, course. Anybody that has worries or
JOANNE MCKENNA: concerns about a child — so it could be
JOANNE MCKENNA: parents and victims directly; it could be
JOANNE MCKENNA: teachers and safeguarding leads that want
JOANNE MCKENNA: to share some concerns; we get calls from
JOANNE MCKENNA: sports coaches, employers of the
JOANNE MCKENNA: staff, neighbours; family members,
JOANNE MCKENNA: including grandparents, older siblings,
JOANNE MCKENNA: aunties and uncles; to churches
JOANNE MCKENNA: and faith leaders and support workers.
JOANNE MCKENNA: So, any adult really that has worries and
JOANNE MCKENNA: concerns for children in terms of
JOANNE MCKENNA: neglect, physical abuse, emotional harm,
JOANNE MCKENNA: sexual abuse and online safety.
JOANNE MCKENNA: What we're seeing more and more and more
JOANNE MCKENNA: is domestic abuse within the Helpline, and
JOANNE MCKENNA: that's coming through daily; we get loads
JOANNE MCKENNA: and loads of calls around domestic abuse.
PADDI VINT: And I'm right in thinking the Helpline's there
PADDI VINT: for those small queries and those small
PADDI VINT: worries right through, as you mentioned there,
PADDI VINT: to some of the bigger things as well?
JOANNE MCKENNA: Yes. So we often get parents
JOANNE MCKENNA: that can ring in around boundaries for the
JOANNE MCKENNA: children — if the children are acting up
JOANNE MCKENNA: within the home — looking for parenting
JOANNE MCKENNA: strategies.
JOANNE MCKENNA: And then once we speak to the
JOANNE MCKENNA: parents or the adults that are ringing in
JOANNE MCKENNA: and we do a little bit of unpicking, we
JOANNE MCKENNA: tend to find that domestic abuse is one of
JOANNE MCKENNA: the main factors within that family home.
PADDI VINT: That's right, Jo, thank you so much.
PADDI VINT: And Cormac, in terms of
PADDI VINT: Childline, what are those children and young
PADDI VINT: people telling Childline about their
PADDI VINT: experience of domestic abuse?
CORMAC NOLAN: We do hear from a very high number of
CORMAC NOLAN: children and young people in Childline.
CORMAC NOLAN: And what we hear from those children and
CORMAC NOLAN: young people are concerns about arguments
CORMAC NOLAN: in the home, arguments that are
CORMAC NOLAN: often not one-off arguments.
CORMAC NOLAN: More than bickering, and that's quoting a
CORMAC NOLAN: young person, actually saying that.
CORMAC NOLAN: They talk to us about aggressive behaviour
CORMAC NOLAN: in the home, they talk about threats being
CORMAC NOLAN: made, they talk about coercive and
CORMAC NOLAN: controlling behaviour, often around
CORMAC NOLAN: access to money and resources within the
CORMAC NOLAN: home and sometimes leaving the home or being
CORMAC NOLAN: able to leave the home. That goes right on
CORMAC NOLAN: through to physical violence.
CORMAC NOLAN: We hear a lot, on Childline, I've seen a
CORMAC NOLAN: lot, children and young people talking about
CORMAC NOLAN: things being thrown to physically hurt
CORMAC NOLAN: people in the relationships.
CORMAC NOLAN: The children and young people talk to us
CORMAC NOLAN: about domestic abuse, but not in the
CORMAC NOLAN: conventional framework of domestic abuse,
CORMAC NOLAN: because they often don't use that term
CORMAC NOLAN: 'domestic abuse'. And often what they're
CORMAC NOLAN: doing is checking out what is happening, But
CORMAC NOLAN: through our conversation, we can piece
CORMAC NOLAN: together that what has happened to them is
CORMAC NOLAN: domestic abuse and while that's a difficult
CORMAC NOLAN: conversation, it's an important one because
CORMAC NOLAN: it frames what's going on for a young
CORMAC NOLAN: person.
PADDI VINT: Cormac, that's really important, that you've
PADDI VINT: mentioned there about a child's use of
PADDI VINT: language. What adults may see as domestic
PADDI VINT: abuse, for a child's frame of mind at that
PADDI VINT: stage, they're still thinking of arguments
PADDI VINT: and aggressive behaviour.
PADDI VINT: It's not always that language of domestic
PADDI VINT: abuse is there.
CORMAC NOLAN: That's true in so many issues that children
CORMAC NOLAN: and young people bring to us.
CORMAC NOLAN: And one of the rules we offer in Childline
CORMAC NOLAN: in terms of the support is to help a
CORMAC NOLAN: child or young person to understand better
CORMAC NOLAN: what is going on around them and what is
CORMAC NOLAN: going on for them.
CORMAC NOLAN: We want to move that on, of course, to ways
CORMAC NOLAN: to cope and ways to get things to stop.
CORMAC NOLAN: And for some young people that can be
CORMAC NOLAN: relatively quick and relatively
CORMAC NOLAN: straightforward. But, as we all know, no two
CORMAC NOLAN: cases are the same.
CORMAC NOLAN: So there is complexity.
CORMAC NOLAN: We do need to take time to understand the
CORMAC NOLAN: young person's safety arrangements, exactly
CORMAC NOLAN: what's going on at home, the young person's
CORMAC NOLAN: own understanding of what's going on for
CORMAC NOLAN: them, potential risk to other children and
CORMAC NOLAN: young people as well.
CORMAC NOLAN: So it does build up from an alarming
CORMAC NOLAN: picture to quite a complex picture and we
CORMAC NOLAN: need to take time to understand from a young
CORMAC NOLAN: person what's going on for them in a very
CORMAC NOLAN: child-centred way. And as you said, Paddi,
CORMAC NOLAN: using language that is not technical
CORMAC NOLAN: language, clinical language, but language
CORMAC NOLAN: that is suitable for the age group that
CORMAC NOLAN: we're dealing with. And that can vary, too.
PADDI VINT: Thank you, Cormac. And Jo, I'm conscious as
PADDI VINT: well that we sometimes have contacts on the
PADDI VINT: Helpline as well, where non-abusive parents
PADDI VINT: are contacting us, sounding out if something
PADDI VINT: is abusive or not.
PADDI VINT: So even for adults, that term 'domestic abuse'
PADDI VINT: can sometimes not necessarily really
PADDI VINT: reflect or resonate with them until they talk
PADDI VINT: to a child protection expert or a domestic
PADDI VINT: abuse practice adviser on the Helpline.
JOANNE MCKENNA: The term domestic abuse is such a formal
JOANNE MCKENNA: term and some people, they don't want to
JOANNE MCKENNA: be associated with domestic abuse.
JOANNE MCKENNA: And as you say, a lot of victims don't
JOANNE MCKENNA: know they're in an abusive relationship,
JOANNE MCKENNA: as do the children. And it's only when
JOANNE MCKENNA: they'll share things, for example, getting
JOANNE MCKENNA: my phone checked all the time.
JOANNE MCKENNA: I can't move anywhere. I can't go
JOANNE MCKENNA: anywhere. I've got no access to money.
JOANNE MCKENNA: I'm getting undermined with the children.
JOANNE MCKENNA: The other parent's getting the children to
JOANNE MCKENNA: call me names. To when we read that back
JOANNE MCKENNA: to them and say, "do you know, do you think this
JOANNE MCKENNA: is abuse? This looks to me like domestic
JOANNE MCKENNA: abuse." And it's only when we go through
JOANNE MCKENNA: the different tactics of abuse, the victim
JOANNE MCKENNA: will say, "you know what, yeah that's me.
JOANNE MCKENNA: That's what's exactly what's happening to
JOANNE MCKENNA: me." And then that tends to open the doors
JOANNE MCKENNA: to getting that support in place.
JOANNE MCKENNA: In terms of some of the professionals,
JOANNE MCKENNA: they'll ring up not just because of
JOANNE MCKENNA: domestic abuse, but they will say this
JOANNE MCKENNA: child's coming into school late all the
JOANNE MCKENNA: time. They're off all the time, they're
JOANNE MCKENNA: not ready to learn when they get here.
JOANNE MCKENNA: They can't concentrate.
JOANNE MCKENNA: I'm seeing things withing their artwork.
JOANNE MCKENNA: They're presenting angry or they're
JOANNE MCKENNA: withdrawn. And it's when we can turn round
JOANNE MCKENNA: and we can say to them, have you asked
JOANNE MCKENNA: about the lived experience, do we know
JOANNE MCKENNA: what's going on? Are the parents saying
JOANNE MCKENNA: things within the playground? And it's
JOANNE MCKENNA: about putting those jigsaw pieces together
JOANNE MCKENNA: with the child and getting that child's
JOANNE MCKENNA: voice and learning more about what's going
JOANNE MCKENNA: on within that home.
PADDI VINT: Thanks, Jo. So, you know, obviously we were
PADDI VINT: chatting there about some of the way it
PADDI VINT: presents and the Helpline has received over
PADDI VINT: 6,500 contacts in relation
PADDI VINT: to domestic abuse from adults.
PADDI VINT: And as you quite rightly say, it's not just
PADDI VINT: the non-abusive parents who are contacting us,
PADDI VINT: it's those neighbours and parents
PADDI VINT: and professionals.
PADDI VINT: And it does seem to differ slightly from what
PADDI VINT: Cormac is telling us, what children are
PADDI VINT: telling us, and how it's being presented.
PADDI VINT: Tell me a little bit more about how maybe,
PADDI VINT: when professionals phone us, what are they
PADDI VINT: saying? What are they telling us that
PADDI VINT: children's behaviours are like?
JOANNE MCKENNA: So it could be... A child could be
JOANNE MCKENNA: particularly very, very angry all the
JOANNE MCKENNA: time; argumentative, smashing things up,
JOANNE MCKENNA: getting involved with criminality. Bunking
JOANNE MCKENNA: off school and skipping school.
JOANNE MCKENNA: So it could be a range of things.
JOANNE MCKENNA: In terms of babies, it's
JOANNE MCKENNA: how that child's presenting.
JOANNE MCKENNA: Is it presenting as neglected, is it
JOANNE MCKENNA: crying all the time?
JOANNE MCKENNA: Is it reluctant to go to a certain adult
JOANNE MCKENNA: because it can't use its voice?
JOANNE MCKENNA: So it's about using their observational
JOANNE MCKENNA: skills and saying this child, this baby is
JOANNE MCKENNA: not presenting normally and reaching the
JOANNE MCKENNA: milestones that they should be reaching.
PADDI VINT: Because often things like that could get
PADDI VINT: overlooked as 101 other reasons
PADDI VINT: other than domestic abuse.
PADDI VINT: So as you say, it's really important that we
PADDI VINT: have those conversations.
PADDI VINT: Cormac, in terms of, you know, Jo had
PADDI VINT: mentioned there and yourself had mentioned
PADDI VINT: about coercive control within those kind of
PADDI VINT: behaviours and relationships.
PADDI VINT: Is that something that Childline are seeing
PADDI VINT: more and more within the relationships?
CORMAC NOLAN: Yeah, we are definitely seeing more of that
CORMAC NOLAN: in relationships and we are seeing it
CORMAC NOLAN: in relationships between young people as
CORMAC NOLAN: well. And I think one of the big
CORMAC NOLAN: misunderstandings that young people still
CORMAC NOLAN: bring to us is that domastic abuse can only
CORMAC NOLAN: happen in the home between a married couple.
CORMAC NOLAN: And I think that's something we try and
CORMAC NOLAN: explain to them, that it's within a
CORMAC NOLAN: relationship setting and it doesn't have to
CORMAC NOLAN: be someone who lives in the home on a
CORMAC NOLAN: regular basis or who is directly connected
CORMAC NOLAN: to the family. Yeah, we definitely do see
CORMAC NOLAN: more about coercive control in
CORMAC NOLAN: relationships, as we said earlier, around
CORMAC NOLAN: money, around access to other people, about
CORMAC NOLAN: seeing and visiting family or about family
CORMAC NOLAN: coming over. And children and young people
CORMAC NOLAN: often know that that's not normal.
CORMAC NOLAN: They know that that's not right, but they
CORMAC NOLAN: just can't piece it together.
CORMAC NOLAN: They don't have the opportunity or the space
CORMAC NOLAN: to think about it. And that's one of the
CORMAC NOLAN: things Childline tries to offer them is the
CORMAC NOLAN: space to think about it.
CORMAC NOLAN: Can I just say, Paddi, as well, it was
CORMAC NOLAN: interesting listening to Jo there when she
CORMAC NOLAN: was talking about the acting out behaviours
CORMAC NOLAN: that they see in children and young people.
CORMAC NOLAN: Often we hear from children and young people
CORMAC NOLAN: about hidden behaviours. Things like self
CORMAC NOLAN: harm, about poor mental health and
CORMAC NOLAN: addictions, eating disorders, things like
CORMAC NOLAN: that; that the young person struggles with
CORMAC NOLAN: and struggles with on their own, but is as a
CORMAC NOLAN: result of the emotional disturbance and the
CORMAC NOLAN: emotional feelings that are created for them
CORMAC NOLAN: and the lack of support, often that is there
CORMAC NOLAN: for the young person, when they see this
CORMAC NOLAN: thing going on in the home setting or in a
CORMAC NOLAN: parent's relationship.
PADDI VINT: Cormac, would it be fair to say that sometimes
PADDI VINT: these behaviours that are outwardly presenting
PADDI VINT: to the NSPCC Helpline are
PADDI VINT: driven from a place of fear for some of the
PADDI VINT: young people?
CORMAC NOLAN: Absolutely. It's a fear of the physical
CORMAC NOLAN: circumstances. It's a fear of the emotional
CORMAC NOLAN: circumstances. But there's also a fear for
CORMAC NOLAN: children and young people of what is going
CORMAC NOLAN: to happen. What's going to happen next?
CORMAC NOLAN: Am I at risk of physical harm?
CORMAC NOLAN: Are my siblings at risk of physical harm?
CORMAC NOLAN: If, following a conversation with Childline,
CORMAC NOLAN: if this ends up being reported — which
CORMAC NOLAN: could be an option, we wouldn't force a
CORMAC NOLAN: young person into anything unless we had
CORMAC NOLAN: major concerns, unless Childline had major
CORMAC NOLAN: concerns — what will happen next?
CORMAC NOLAN: Will we be separated as a family?
CORMAC NOLAN: Will things go on as they were.
CORMAC NOLAN: There is fear but that fear is fed by a
CORMAC NOLAN: number of concerns for the young person.
PADDI VINT: It's interesting to see that young people are
PADDI VINT: now recognising this coercive controlling
PADDI VINT: behaviour, which could be a fairly new term
PADDI VINT: for a lot of people.
PADDI VINT: But it's really important that we reflect that
PADDI VINT: it's a term now that's used in legislation,
PADDI VINT: which is incredible, and it gives that power
PADDI VINT: and ownership back to the non-abusive parent,
PADDI VINT: to the victim themselves and to the children
PADDI VINT: that are affected. And it's also really
PADDI VINT: important that we also reflect now that in
PADDI VINT: legislation, we're seeing children as very
PADDI VINT: much co-victims and not the kind of
PADDI VINT: 'seen-and-not-heard' version where children
PADDI VINT: are just merely in the periphery of these
PADDI VINT: situations that are playing out.
PADDI VINT: That we're actually recognising these children
PADDI VINT: are direct victims themselves.
PADDI VINT: Is that something that is reflected when
PADDI VINT: people contact Helpline, Jo?
JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad that
JOANNE MCKENNA: we're moving away from a child witnessing
JOANNE MCKENNA: domestic abuse to being a victim in their
JOANNE MCKENNA: own right. A lot of the children that
JOANNE MCKENNA: are coming through within the families
JOANNE MCKENNA: that we're dealing with, they're often
JOANNE MCKENNA: caretakers or protective of being
JOANNE MCKENNA: the in-between with the parents.
JOANNE MCKENNA: You know, the go-between.
JOANNE MCKENNA: We're finding that young people and
JOANNE MCKENNA: children are getting tags put on them so
JOANNE MCKENNA: the abusive parent can follow where
JOANNE MCKENNA: they are, where they can spy on them.
JOANNE MCKENNA: They're getting asked questions about the
JOANNE MCKENNA: other parent. Who are their parent's with,
JOANNE MCKENNA: what they're doing, what they're spending
JOANNE MCKENNA: time with, withholding maintenance
JOANNE MCKENNA: payments. Those kind of things stop that
JOANNE MCKENNA: child from being able to experience good,
JOANNE MCKENNA: nice things and get the care that they
JOANNE MCKENNA: need. Name-calling the other parent,
JOANNE MCKENNA: undermining. And it's the child who's
JOANNE MCKENNA: in the centre of all this, and it's the
JOANNE MCKENNA: child that's impacted the most.
PADDI VINT: So that post-separation abuse very much being
PADDI VINT: a key feature in the ongoing abuse between
PADDI VINT: the parents, but with the child being a direct
PADDI VINT: victim within that.
JOANNE MCKENNA: Absolutely Paddi, yeah. And it's the
JOANNE MCKENNA: impact on the child's mental health and
JOANNE MCKENNA: who that child should side with.
JOANNE MCKENNA: Should that child be telling one parent
JOANNE MCKENNA: what the parent's doing and that
JOANNE MCKENNA: questioning. And they're not allowed to be
JOANNE MCKENNA: children. They're that go-between and that
JOANNE MCKENNA: caretaker of the two adults.
PADDI VINT: Jo mentions their how some children
PADDI VINT: take on those protective roles and they're the
PADDI VINT: kind of caretaker roles that we sometimes see.
PADDI VINT: And there is a level of responsibility that
PADDI VINT: some young people potentially take on board
PADDI VINT: when they're in that situation, particularly
PADDI VINT: in the home environment.
PADDI VINT: Cormac, what would you— what would your advice
PADDI VINT: to those young people be around their
PADDI VINT: responsibility or what shouldn't be their
PADDI VINT: responsibility?
CORMAC NOLAN: It's very clear to Childline that it's not
CORMAC NOLAN: a child's responsibility to fix
CORMAC NOLAN: what is going on at home, and it is not a
CORMAC NOLAN: child's responsibility to long-term look
CORMAC NOLAN: after all the needs of siblings.
CORMAC NOLAN: A term we often use in Childline when we're
CORMAC NOLAN: talking to them because of what they say to
CORMAC NOLAN: us is it's not a child's fault either.
CORMAC NOLAN: Some children can feel that they are
CORMAC NOLAN: responsible for what is happening in terms
CORMAC NOLAN: of having caused it. That's nonsense.
CORMAC NOLAN: Of course not.
CORMAC NOLAN: But it's also not a child's responsibility
CORMAC NOLAN: to fix it. What we want to do is take that
CORMAC NOLAN: responsibility in Childline.
CORMAC NOLAN: To take the responsibility off the child or
CORMAC NOLAN: young person, to help them understand what
CORMAC NOLAN: is going and collaborate with them to
CORMAC NOLAN: get help and support; how to cope
CORMAC NOLAN: with what is going on, how to live an
CORMAC NOLAN: ordinary childhood and how to get help to
CORMAC NOLAN: make things stop so it is not a child's
CORMAC NOLAN: responsibility to fix things or make things
CORMAC NOLAN: better. They may well feel that, and part of
CORMAC NOLAN: the conversation with Childline can be about
CORMAC NOLAN: teasing that out and helping a young person
CORMAC NOLAN: to understand the complexity that is there
CORMAC NOLAN: and that blame or responsibility does not
CORMAC NOLAN: begin or end with them.
PADDI VINT: I certainly remember as a Helpline
PADDI VINT: practitioner, taking a call from an adult
PADDI VINT: sibling who had left university, and it's
PADDI VINT: quite poignant at the time now — that this is
PADDI VINT: the time for older siblings leaving to start
PADDI VINT: their university journey.
PADDI VINT: And I always remember a contact we received
PADDI VINT: from a young student who had just started
PADDI VINT: their first year, worried about leaving
PADDI VINT: the home environment because they were the one
PADDI VINT: who were that kind of protective factor.
PADDI VINT: That when there had been an incident the night
PADDI VINT: before, they got their brother and sister up
PADDI VINT: and dressed for school, they gave them their
PADDI VINT: breakfast, they made sure they got picked up
PADDI VINT: from school on time.
PADDI VINT: And her concern was she needed to be out
PADDI VINT: of that environment. And she knew that.
PADDI VINT: But her biggest worry was that she was leaving
PADDI VINT: behind those two younger siblings in the home.
PADDI VINT: Jo, I'm just wondering, is that something that
PADDI VINT: you see frequently as well?
JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, we do. Sadly, we do get lots of
JOANNE MCKENNA: siblings calling up.
JOANNE MCKENNA: Young people are worried about their
JOANNE MCKENNA: siblings and the parent that's being abuse
JOANNE MCKENNA: and they do feel that responsibility.
JOANNE MCKENNA: We can reassure them, validate them and
JOANNE MCKENNA: say, you know, you're not responsible.
JOANNE MCKENNA: As Cormac said, you're not responsible for
JOANNE MCKENNA: this. This is the responsibility of the
JOANNE MCKENNA: abusive parents and we can get you the
JOANNE MCKENNA: help and we can get you that support.
JOANNE MCKENNA: So, yeah, we do see a lot.
PADDI VINT: What safeguarding actions should be taken
PADDI VINT: by professionals if they do have concerns?
PADDI VINT: That they're seeing behaviours played out by
PADDI VINT: children. They may or may not have a direct
PADDI VINT: disclosure of what's happening in the home.
PADDI VINT: What can professionals working with those
PADDI VINT: children and young people do to safeguard
PADDI VINT: them, Jo?
JOANNE MCKENNA: They can start by actually speaking to the
JOANNE MCKENNA: child and listening to the child.
JOANNE MCKENNA: Learning about their experiences of what's
JOANNE MCKENNA: going on within the home.
JOANNE MCKENNA: You know, being interested in that child.
JOANNE MCKENNA: Following their safeguarding policy for
JOANNE MCKENNA: one, especially if it's in a school or
JOANNE MCKENNA: sports coaching. Every agency
JOANNE MCKENNA: or every organisation should have some
JOANNE MCKENNA: kinds of safeguarding policy if they're
JOANNE MCKENNA: working directly with children.
JOANNE MCKENNA: And getting advice, further advice,
JOANNE MCKENNA: calling the helpline and saying, you know,
JOANNE MCKENNA: things aren't sitting right with me.
JOANNE MCKENNA: I've got this child displaying these kinds
JOANNE MCKENNA: of behaviours.
JOANNE MCKENNA: We can help with those referrals to
JOANNE MCKENNA: safeguarding agencies such as children's
JOANNE MCKENNA: social care and the police.
JOANNE MCKENNA: So it's about multi-agency working, Paddi.
JOANNE MCKENNA: It's not just about sitting on these
JOANNE MCKENNA: worries and concerns. If an agency's got
JOANNE MCKENNA: any concerns, we need to act on it and
JOANNE MCKENNA: safeguard that child.
PADDI VINT: I also think that sometimes those small — what
PADDI VINT: could maybe be insignificant — things that
PADDI VINT: professionals are maybe seeing— so little
PADDI VINT: things, they're late one day, maybe it's a
PADDI VINT: Friday after pick-up or drop-off.
PADDI VINT: Then the following week it's the same.
PADDI VINT: Then they've come in and they've forgotten
PADDI VINT: kit, or they're a little bit upset and they're
PADDI VINT: acting out. In isolation, those things may
PADDI VINT: seem quite small, but it's when you start to
PADDI VINT: record them and create a timeline and a
PADDI VINT: chronology of those behaviours
PADDI VINT: that you're seeing, how the child's appearing,
PADDI VINT: going home or coming back, those are sometimes
PADDI VINT: key things that can really support
PADDI VINT: your sense that something's not right.
PADDI VINT: When you actually look back those could what
PADDI VINT: be small, insignificant things can actually
PADDI VINT: appear to have a much bigger part to play.
JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, and we do promote that with the
JOANNE MCKENNA: victims that we work with when there's
JOANNE MCKENNA: children in post-separation abuse.
JOANNE MCKENNA: It's about can you see a difference in
JOANNE MCKENNA: your child when they come back from being
JOANNE MCKENNA: with that parent. What are they like
JOANNE MCKENNA: before they go? Is there any change in the
JOANNE MCKENNA: behaviour, are they acting up when they
JOANNE MCKENNA: come back? And we do advise to keep a log
JOANNE MCKENNA: of that because, further on the line,
JOANNE MCKENNA: should the family court have to get
JOANNE MCKENNA: involved, that can be used to demonstrate
JOANNE MCKENNA: the child's voice of how they feel about
JOANNE MCKENNA: that other parent.
PADDI VINT: For me as well, I don't think there's ever too
PADDI VINT: early a time to start introducing healthy
PADDI VINT: and unhealthy relationships.
PADDI VINT: I think it's something that we need to become
PADDI VINT: really good at as professionals, about calling
PADDI VINT: out behaviours that we see as maybe
PADDI VINT: being unhelpful or unhealthy.
PADDI VINT: Would that be fair and true from a Childline
PADDI VINT: point of view as well?
CORMAC NOLAN: Absolutely.
CORMAC NOLAN: We also have content on the Childline
CORMAC NOLAN: website around healthy and unhealthy
CORMAC NOLAN: relationships, and that has stemmed from the
CORMAC NOLAN: number of contacts that we have that we
CORMAC NOLAN: talked about earlier around coercive
CORMAC NOLAN: behaviour. Children and young people feeling
CORMAC NOLAN: that something's not right, but not knowing
CORMAC NOLAN: exactly what that is or understanding the
CORMAC NOLAN: extent of it.
PADDI VINT: We understand for anybody talking about
PADDI VINT: domestic abuse, it isn't easy for adults
PADDI VINT: and absolutely true it's the same that it's
PADDI VINT: not always easy for children and young people.
PADDI VINT: And I remember we had a parent contact us
PADDI VINT: to tell us that her son, he'd been quite
PADDI VINT: uncomfortable with his father and stepmother.
PADDI VINT: They were shouting and, as you said, arguing
PADDI VINT: was the terminology that he had used, but it
PADDI VINT: had been dismissed by the father when mum
PADDI VINT: spoke to him. But a few weeks later,
PADDI VINT: children's services contacted mum and said
PADDI VINT: that there had actually been a domestic abuse
PADDI VINT: incident in the home with the father and the
PADDI VINT: stepmom and that her son wouldn't be able to
PADDI VINT: stay there any further.
PADDI VINT: And again, mum really struggled with just
PADDI VINT: chatting to her son about what happened
PADDI VINT: or even to get any information.
PADDI VINT: It was as if he was kind of shutting down.
PADDI VINT: What do children and young people tell
PADDI VINT: Childline about how they want to be supported?
PADDI VINT: Because I'm conscious that sometimes as adults
PADDI VINT: we can be really well-meaning, but we
PADDI VINT: don't always get it right.
PADDI VINT: And we come from a place of what would help
PADDI VINT: us, but that's maybe not how children want to
PADDI VINT: be supported.
CORMAC NOLAN: I think that's a really important question
CORMAC NOLAN: because the focus has to be on a child
CORMAC NOLAN: or young person and it's a dangerous
CORMAC NOLAN: assumption to make that the child or young
CORMAC NOLAN: person doesn't know what they want or
CORMAC NOLAN: doesn't know what's best for them.
CORMAC NOLAN: So we spend time at Childline trying to
CORMAC NOLAN: figure out what a child wants to happen.
CORMAC NOLAN: I think ultimately the obvious answer to
CORMAC NOLAN: that question is they want what's happening
CORMAC NOLAN: to stop. But we all know that that's not a
CORMAC NOLAN: straightforward process.
CORMAC NOLAN: So we can break that process
CORMAC NOLAN: up into little pieces with a young person.
CORMAC NOLAN: What can they do to protect themselves?
CORMAC NOLAN: What can they do to distract themselves?
CORMAC NOLAN: How can they cope with the arguing when it's
CORMAC NOLAN: happening? How can they find a space and a
CORMAC NOLAN: time for themselves?
CORMAC NOLAN: Ultimately, they want things to go back to
CORMAC NOLAN: how they were before this happened to a
CORMAC NOLAN: happier time. Often they'll say they want to
CORMAC NOLAN: be like other families, because when they're
CORMAC NOLAN: going to school, they're not hearing their
CORMAC NOLAN: peers talking about abuse necessarily, or
CORMAC NOLAN: domestic abuse taking place in the home.
CORMAC NOLAN: So they want things to stop.
CORMAC NOLAN: They want to feel normal.
CORMAC NOLAN: They want things to be normal for them and
CORMAC NOLAN: they want them and their siblings to be
CORMAC NOLAN: safe. And sometimes children and young
CORMAC NOLAN: people who speak to Childline have got some
CORMAC NOLAN: of their own ideas and have already got some
CORMAC NOLAN: strategies in place. And sometimes it can be
CORMAC NOLAN: just about confirming and affirming that for
CORMAC NOLAN: the young person. On a more basic level —
CORMAC NOLAN: and this is true of any topic — children and
CORMAC NOLAN: young people also just want a space where
CORMAC NOLAN: they can express what's going on.
CORMAC NOLAN: They want somewhere where someone who is
CORMAC NOLAN: impartial and supportive will listen to what
CORMAC NOLAN: they have to say, will help them to
CORMAC NOLAN: understand, piece things together, be
CORMAC NOLAN: accepting of what's going on.
CORMAC NOLAN: Yes, non-judgemental, and will give them
CORMAC NOLAN: time and space and, I think really crucially
CORMAC NOLAN: for Childline, Paddi, be available when they
CORMAC NOLAN: need them to be available because Childline
CORMAC NOLAN: is a 24 hour a day, seven day a week service
CORMAC NOLAN: with a number of ways which children and
CORMAC NOLAN: young people can contact them. And for a lot
CORMAC NOLAN: of children and young people we know sometimes
CORMAC NOLAN: late at night is maybe the only time that
CORMAC NOLAN: they can contact or in the morning on the
CORMAC NOLAN: way to school. So I think all of those
CORMAC NOLAN: things are what children and young people
CORMAC NOLAN: want from us as an organisation.
PADDI VINT: And certainly those are all the skills there
PADDI VINT: you said — you know, being that impartial,
PADDI VINT: accepting, non-judgemental — those can
PADDI VINT: all be things that other professionals who are
PADDI VINT: supporting that young person can bring.
PADDI VINT: Certainly a teacher, a sports coach...
PADDI VINT: As you say, creating that space to have
PADDI VINT: those conversations and to work through
PADDI VINT: those issues with the child can be really
PADDI VINT: important and powerful for that child because
PADDI VINT: it's not always the parent that's going to
PADDI VINT: be able to offer that support.
PADDI VINT: We do need to look to our counsellors like
PADDI VINT: yourselves and Childline and those other
PADDI VINT: special adults in that child's life to be able
PADDI VINT: to support that.
PADDI VINT: Thank you, Jo and Cormac, it's been great to
PADDI VINT: be able to bring together two sides of
PADDI VINT: a story from the NSPCC, one from the Helpline
PADDI VINT: and one from Childline, and seeing how
PADDI VINT: actually, while there may be differences, they
PADDI VINT: certainly do cross over.
PADDI VINT: I think that's been hopefully really useful
PADDI VINT: for some professionals listening to the
PADDI VINT: podcast. Thank you very much for your time.
JOANNE MCKENNA: Thanks very much. It's been great speaking
JOANNE MCKENNA: to you both.
CORMAC NOLAN: Thank you very much Paddi. Thank you,
CORMAC NOLAN: Joanne.
PADDI VINT: If anybody would like further information or
PADDI VINT: has concerns for a child, they're very welcome
PADDI VINT: to contact the NSPCC Helpline on
PADDI VINT: 0808 800 5000, or
PADDI VINT: drop us an email to help@NSPCC.org.uk.
OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning
OUTRO: Podcast.
OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content
OUTRO: was up-to-date, but the world of safeguarding and
OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing.
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OUTRO: information or resources, please visit
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