1 00:00:03,070 --> 00:00:06,039 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,979 INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection 3 00:00:08,980 --> 00:00:12,249 INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation. 4 00:00:12,250 --> 00:00:15,159 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:17,589 INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work 6 00:00:17,590 --> 00:00:20,859 INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young people 7 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:21,860 INTRO: safe. 8 00:00:24,380 --> 00:00:27,499 PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. 9 00:00:27,500 --> 00:00:30,229 PRODUCER: Being exposed to domestic abuse is a form of 10 00:00:30,230 --> 00:00:32,989 PRODUCER: child abuse. Children don't need to be directly 11 00:00:32,990 --> 00:00:35,089 PRODUCER: involved for this to be the case. 12 00:00:35,090 --> 00:00:37,339 PRODUCER: They may have seen or heard or experienced the 13 00:00:37,340 --> 00:00:40,009 PRODUCER: effects of domestic abuse in the family. 14 00:00:40,010 --> 00:00:41,869 PRODUCER: This can have a big impact on a child's 15 00:00:41,870 --> 00:00:45,049 PRODUCER: behaviour, brain development, education outcomes 16 00:00:45,050 --> 00:00:46,969 PRODUCER: and overall wellbeing. 17 00:00:46,970 --> 00:00:50,509 PRODUCER: In 2023-24, Childline counsellors 18 00:00:50,510 --> 00:00:53,539 PRODUCER: delivered over 1,000 counselling sessions to 19 00:00:53,540 --> 00:00:56,209 PRODUCER: children and young people whose main concern was 20 00:00:56,210 --> 00:00:58,009 PRODUCER: domestic abuse. 21 00:00:58,010 --> 00:01:01,459 PRODUCER: They discussed feeling scared, worried, unhappy, 22 00:01:01,460 --> 00:01:04,429 PRODUCER: angry and helpless. In the same time 23 00:01:04,430 --> 00:01:07,148 PRODUCER: period, the NSPCC helpline received over 6,800 24 00:01:09,020 --> 00:01:11,719 PRODUCER: child welfare contacts where the main concern 25 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:13,399 PRODUCER: was domestic abuse. 26 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,090 PRODUCER: This episode of the podcast, recorded in 27 00:01:15,091 --> 00:01:16,999 PRODUCER: September 2024, brings together representatives 28 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,939 PRODUCER: from the NSPCC Helpline and Childline 29 00:01:19,940 --> 00:01:22,039 PRODUCER: to talk about the different ways domestic abuse 30 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,159 PRODUCER: affects babies, children and young people, and 31 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,559 PRODUCER: how you can spot the signs and support children 32 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,239 PRODUCER: who are affected. 33 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,459 PRODUCER: Here's Paddi Vint to introduce the discussion. 34 00:01:37,090 --> 00:01:39,884 PADDI VINT: Hello there, my name is Paddi Vint and I'm 35 00:01:39,885 --> 00:01:42,339 PADDI VINT: Development and Quality Manager within the 36 00:01:42,340 --> 00:01:44,679 PADDI VINT: NSPCC Helpline. 37 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,079 PADDI VINT: I oversee a domestic abuse project. 38 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,289 PADDI VINT: I've got Cormac Nolan with me today. 39 00:01:50,290 --> 00:01:52,779 CORMAC NOLAN: Hello, I'm Cormac Nolan and I'm one of the 40 00:01:52,780 --> 00:01:56,049 CORMAC NOLAN: service heads in Childline, the 24 hour, 41 00:01:56,050 --> 00:01:59,289 CORMAC NOLAN: seven day a week, 365 day a year 42 00:01:59,290 --> 00:02:01,389 CORMAC NOLAN: helpline for children and young people. 43 00:02:01,390 --> 00:02:04,299 PADDI VINT: I also have Joanne McKenna, 44 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:06,750 PADDI VINT: one of our domestic abuse practice advisors — 45 00:02:06,751 --> 00:02:09,129 PADDI VINT: or DAPAs as we refer to them on the Helpline — 46 00:02:09,130 --> 00:02:09,769 PADDI VINT: with me. 47 00:02:09,770 --> 00:02:12,489 JOANNE MCKENNA: Hi Paddi. As you said, I'm Joanne McKenna 48 00:02:12,490 --> 00:02:14,949 JOANNE MCKENNA: or Jo McKenna, and I'm one of the DAPAs — 49 00:02:14,950 --> 00:02:16,659 JOANNE MCKENNA: domestic abuse practice advisors — on the 50 00:02:16,660 --> 00:02:19,509 JOANNE MCKENNA: Helpline. And my role on the Helpline is 51 00:02:19,510 --> 00:02:22,299 JOANNE MCKENNA: we offer support to the Helpline 52 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:24,879 JOANNE MCKENNA: practitioners in terms of domestic abuse 53 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,789 JOANNE MCKENNA: calls. We have small caseloads 54 00:02:27,790 --> 00:02:30,609 JOANNE MCKENNA: of high-risk domestic abuse cases, and we 55 00:02:30,610 --> 00:02:32,679 JOANNE MCKENNA: also deliver training around domestic 56 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,419 JOANNE MCKENNA: abuse across the Helpline. 57 00:02:34,420 --> 00:02:36,909 PADDI VINT: Sometimes it can be really helpful for 58 00:02:36,910 --> 00:02:39,879 PADDI VINT: professionals to marry up what children 59 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,609 PADDI VINT: are telling us alongside their behaviour, and 60 00:02:42,610 --> 00:02:44,199 PADDI VINT: that's why I felt it was really important to 61 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,259 PADDI VINT: try and do a joint podcast with Childline, 62 00:02:47,260 --> 00:02:50,109 PADDI VINT: who are clearly best-placed to be able to shed 63 00:02:50,110 --> 00:02:53,019 PADDI VINT: some light on the feelings and emotions that 64 00:02:53,020 --> 00:02:54,729 PADDI VINT: children are telling their Childline 65 00:02:54,730 --> 00:02:57,849 PADDI VINT: counsellors. And to marry that alongside what 66 00:02:57,850 --> 00:03:01,149 PADDI VINT: adults are telling us from Jo in her DA work 67 00:03:01,150 --> 00:03:02,469 PADDI VINT: on the Helpline. 68 00:03:02,470 --> 00:03:05,199 PADDI VINT: But I'm also really conscious that some people 69 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,869 PADDI VINT: listening to the podcast might not actually 70 00:03:07,870 --> 00:03:10,899 PADDI VINT: know who even calls the Helpline or what 71 00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:12,309 PADDI VINT: the Helpline's about. 72 00:03:12,310 --> 00:03:14,379 PADDI VINT: Jo, would you mind giving us a bit of an 73 00:03:14,380 --> 00:03:17,529 PADDI VINT: overview of who contacts the helpline? 74 00:03:17,530 --> 00:03:20,049 JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, course. Anybody that has worries or 75 00:03:20,050 --> 00:03:22,119 JOANNE MCKENNA: concerns about a child — so it could be 76 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,819 JOANNE MCKENNA: parents and victims directly; it could be 77 00:03:24,820 --> 00:03:27,009 JOANNE MCKENNA: teachers and safeguarding leads that want 78 00:03:27,010 --> 00:03:29,919 JOANNE MCKENNA: to share some concerns; we get calls from 79 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:31,700 JOANNE MCKENNA: sports coaches, employers of the 80 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:35,589 JOANNE MCKENNA: staff, neighbours; family members, 81 00:03:35,590 --> 00:03:38,589 JOANNE MCKENNA: including grandparents, older siblings, 82 00:03:38,590 --> 00:03:41,679 JOANNE MCKENNA: aunties and uncles; to churches 83 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,569 JOANNE MCKENNA: and faith leaders and support workers. 84 00:03:43,570 --> 00:03:46,030 JOANNE MCKENNA: So, any adult really that has worries and 85 00:03:46,031 --> 00:03:48,969 JOANNE MCKENNA: concerns for children in terms of 86 00:03:48,970 --> 00:03:51,549 JOANNE MCKENNA: neglect, physical abuse, emotional harm, 87 00:03:51,550 --> 00:03:53,799 JOANNE MCKENNA: sexual abuse and online safety. 88 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,109 JOANNE MCKENNA: What we're seeing more and more and more 89 00:03:56,110 --> 00:03:58,869 JOANNE MCKENNA: is domestic abuse within the Helpline, and 90 00:03:58,870 --> 00:04:01,329 JOANNE MCKENNA: that's coming through daily; we get loads 91 00:04:01,330 --> 00:04:04,209 JOANNE MCKENNA: and loads of calls around domestic abuse. 92 00:04:04,210 --> 00:04:06,549 PADDI VINT: And I'm right in thinking the Helpline's there 93 00:04:06,550 --> 00:04:09,519 PADDI VINT: for those small queries and those small 94 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,559 PADDI VINT: worries right through, as you mentioned there, 95 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,149 PADDI VINT: to some of the bigger things as well? 96 00:04:13,150 --> 00:04:14,940 JOANNE MCKENNA: Yes. So we often get parents 97 00:04:16,060 --> 00:04:18,219 JOANNE MCKENNA: that can ring in around boundaries for the 98 00:04:18,220 --> 00:04:20,648 JOANNE MCKENNA: children — if the children are acting up 99 00:04:20,649 --> 00:04:21,804 JOANNE MCKENNA: within the home — looking for parenting 100 00:04:23,140 --> 00:04:24,459 JOANNE MCKENNA: strategies. 101 00:04:24,460 --> 00:04:27,459 JOANNE MCKENNA: And then once we speak to the 102 00:04:27,460 --> 00:04:30,279 JOANNE MCKENNA: parents or the adults that are ringing in 103 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:32,529 JOANNE MCKENNA: and we do a little bit of unpicking, we 104 00:04:32,530 --> 00:04:35,229 JOANNE MCKENNA: tend to find that domestic abuse is one of 105 00:04:35,230 --> 00:04:37,359 JOANNE MCKENNA: the main factors within that family home. 106 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:38,869 PADDI VINT: That's right, Jo, thank you so much. 107 00:04:38,870 --> 00:04:41,919 PADDI VINT: And Cormac, in terms of 108 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,499 PADDI VINT: Childline, what are those children and young 109 00:04:44,500 --> 00:04:46,689 PADDI VINT: people telling Childline about their 110 00:04:46,690 --> 00:04:48,789 PADDI VINT: experience of domestic abuse? 111 00:04:48,790 --> 00:04:50,979 CORMAC NOLAN: We do hear from a very high number of 112 00:04:50,980 --> 00:04:52,869 CORMAC NOLAN: children and young people in Childline. 113 00:04:52,870 --> 00:04:55,119 CORMAC NOLAN: And what we hear from those children and 114 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,569 CORMAC NOLAN: young people are concerns about arguments 115 00:04:58,570 --> 00:05:01,539 CORMAC NOLAN: in the home, arguments that are 116 00:05:01,540 --> 00:05:03,759 CORMAC NOLAN: often not one-off arguments. 117 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:04,915 CORMAC NOLAN: More than bickering, and that's quoting a 118 00:05:05,710 --> 00:05:07,539 CORMAC NOLAN: young person, actually saying that. 119 00:05:07,540 --> 00:05:09,939 CORMAC NOLAN: They talk to us about aggressive behaviour 120 00:05:09,940 --> 00:05:12,279 CORMAC NOLAN: in the home, they talk about threats being 121 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:14,469 CORMAC NOLAN: made, they talk about coercive and 122 00:05:14,470 --> 00:05:17,529 CORMAC NOLAN: controlling behaviour, often around 123 00:05:17,530 --> 00:05:20,199 CORMAC NOLAN: access to money and resources within the 124 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,109 CORMAC NOLAN: home and sometimes leaving the home or being 125 00:05:23,110 --> 00:05:25,059 CORMAC NOLAN: able to leave the home. That goes right on 126 00:05:25,060 --> 00:05:27,459 CORMAC NOLAN: through to physical violence. 127 00:05:27,460 --> 00:05:29,439 CORMAC NOLAN: We hear a lot, on Childline, I've seen a 128 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,269 CORMAC NOLAN: lot, children and young people talking about 129 00:05:31,270 --> 00:05:33,759 CORMAC NOLAN: things being thrown to physically hurt 130 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,589 CORMAC NOLAN: people in the relationships. 131 00:05:35,590 --> 00:05:38,499 CORMAC NOLAN: The children and young people talk to us 132 00:05:38,500 --> 00:05:41,649 CORMAC NOLAN: about domestic abuse, but not in the 133 00:05:41,650 --> 00:05:43,381 CORMAC NOLAN: conventional framework of domestic abuse, 134 00:05:43,382 --> 00:05:45,759 CORMAC NOLAN: because they often don't use that term 135 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:47,379 CORMAC NOLAN: 'domestic abuse'. And often what they're 136 00:05:47,380 --> 00:05:50,439 CORMAC NOLAN: doing is checking out what is happening, But 137 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:51,939 CORMAC NOLAN: through our conversation, we can piece 138 00:05:51,940 --> 00:05:53,319 CORMAC NOLAN: together that what has happened to them is 139 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:54,939 CORMAC NOLAN: domestic abuse and while that's a difficult 140 00:05:54,940 --> 00:05:56,799 CORMAC NOLAN: conversation, it's an important one because 141 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,659 CORMAC NOLAN: it frames what's going on for a young 142 00:05:58,660 --> 00:05:59,619 CORMAC NOLAN: person. 143 00:05:59,620 --> 00:06:01,269 PADDI VINT: Cormac, that's really important, that you've 144 00:06:01,270 --> 00:06:03,729 PADDI VINT: mentioned there about a child's use of 145 00:06:03,730 --> 00:06:06,849 PADDI VINT: language. What adults may see as domestic 146 00:06:06,850 --> 00:06:09,699 PADDI VINT: abuse, for a child's frame of mind at that 147 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:12,639 PADDI VINT: stage, they're still thinking of arguments 148 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,259 PADDI VINT: and aggressive behaviour. 149 00:06:14,260 --> 00:06:16,899 PADDI VINT: It's not always that language of domestic 150 00:06:16,900 --> 00:06:18,639 PADDI VINT: abuse is there. 151 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,489 CORMAC NOLAN: That's true in so many issues that children 152 00:06:21,490 --> 00:06:23,079 CORMAC NOLAN: and young people bring to us. 153 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,720 CORMAC NOLAN: And one of the rules we offer in Childline 154 00:06:25,721 --> 00:06:28,629 CORMAC NOLAN: in terms of the support is to help a 155 00:06:28,630 --> 00:06:31,119 CORMAC NOLAN: child or young person to understand better 156 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,099 CORMAC NOLAN: what is going on around them and what is 157 00:06:33,100 --> 00:06:34,459 CORMAC NOLAN: going on for them. 158 00:06:34,460 --> 00:06:37,009 CORMAC NOLAN: We want to move that on, of course, to ways 159 00:06:37,010 --> 00:06:39,049 CORMAC NOLAN: to cope and ways to get things to stop. 160 00:06:39,050 --> 00:06:41,419 CORMAC NOLAN: And for some young people that can be 161 00:06:41,420 --> 00:06:42,889 CORMAC NOLAN: relatively quick and relatively 162 00:06:42,890 --> 00:06:44,989 CORMAC NOLAN: straightforward. But, as we all know, no two 163 00:06:44,990 --> 00:06:46,429 CORMAC NOLAN: cases are the same. 164 00:06:46,430 --> 00:06:48,559 CORMAC NOLAN: So there is complexity. 165 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,809 CORMAC NOLAN: We do need to take time to understand the 166 00:06:50,810 --> 00:06:53,119 CORMAC NOLAN: young person's safety arrangements, exactly 167 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:54,709 CORMAC NOLAN: what's going on at home, the young person's 168 00:06:54,710 --> 00:06:56,899 CORMAC NOLAN: own understanding of what's going on for 169 00:06:56,900 --> 00:06:58,999 CORMAC NOLAN: them, potential risk to other children and 170 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:00,259 CORMAC NOLAN: young people as well. 171 00:07:00,260 --> 00:07:03,349 CORMAC NOLAN: So it does build up from an alarming 172 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:05,329 CORMAC NOLAN: picture to quite a complex picture and we 173 00:07:05,330 --> 00:07:07,729 CORMAC NOLAN: need to take time to understand from a young 174 00:07:07,730 --> 00:07:10,579 CORMAC NOLAN: person what's going on for them in a very 175 00:07:10,580 --> 00:07:12,469 CORMAC NOLAN: child-centred way. And as you said, Paddi, 176 00:07:12,470 --> 00:07:14,929 CORMAC NOLAN: using language that is not technical 177 00:07:14,930 --> 00:07:16,699 CORMAC NOLAN: language, clinical language, but language 178 00:07:16,700 --> 00:07:18,649 CORMAC NOLAN: that is suitable for the age group that 179 00:07:18,650 --> 00:07:20,599 CORMAC NOLAN: we're dealing with. And that can vary, too. 180 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,059 PADDI VINT: Thank you, Cormac. And Jo, I'm conscious as 181 00:07:23,060 --> 00:07:25,309 PADDI VINT: well that we sometimes have contacts on the 182 00:07:25,310 --> 00:07:28,819 PADDI VINT: Helpline as well, where non-abusive parents 183 00:07:28,820 --> 00:07:32,299 PADDI VINT: are contacting us, sounding out if something 184 00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:34,549 PADDI VINT: is abusive or not. 185 00:07:34,550 --> 00:07:38,089 PADDI VINT: So even for adults, that term 'domestic abuse' 186 00:07:38,090 --> 00:07:41,599 PADDI VINT: can sometimes not necessarily really 187 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,479 PADDI VINT: reflect or resonate with them until they talk 188 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,059 PADDI VINT: to a child protection expert or a domestic 189 00:07:47,060 --> 00:07:49,609 PADDI VINT: abuse practice adviser on the Helpline. 190 00:07:49,610 --> 00:07:51,529 JOANNE MCKENNA: The term domestic abuse is such a formal 191 00:07:51,530 --> 00:07:54,439 JOANNE MCKENNA: term and some people, they don't want to 192 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,179 JOANNE MCKENNA: be associated with domestic abuse. 193 00:07:56,180 --> 00:07:58,069 JOANNE MCKENNA: And as you say, a lot of victims don't 194 00:07:58,070 --> 00:07:59,959 JOANNE MCKENNA: know they're in an abusive relationship, 195 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:02,449 JOANNE MCKENNA: as do the children. And it's only when 196 00:08:02,450 --> 00:08:05,599 JOANNE MCKENNA: they'll share things, for example, getting 197 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,549 JOANNE MCKENNA: my phone checked all the time. 198 00:08:07,550 --> 00:08:09,379 JOANNE MCKENNA: I can't move anywhere. I can't go 199 00:08:09,380 --> 00:08:11,929 JOANNE MCKENNA: anywhere. I've got no access to money. 200 00:08:11,930 --> 00:08:14,179 JOANNE MCKENNA: I'm getting undermined with the children. 201 00:08:14,180 --> 00:08:15,829 JOANNE MCKENNA: The other parent's getting the children to 202 00:08:15,830 --> 00:08:18,409 JOANNE MCKENNA: call me names. To when we read that back 203 00:08:18,410 --> 00:08:19,759 JOANNE MCKENNA: to them and say, "do you know, do you think this 204 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,919 JOANNE MCKENNA: is abuse? This looks to me like domestic 205 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,049 JOANNE MCKENNA: abuse." And it's only when we go through 206 00:08:24,050 --> 00:08:26,599 JOANNE MCKENNA: the different tactics of abuse, the victim 207 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,699 JOANNE MCKENNA: will say, "you know what, yeah that's me. 208 00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:30,289 JOANNE MCKENNA: That's what's exactly what's happening to 209 00:08:30,290 --> 00:08:32,869 JOANNE MCKENNA: me." And then that tends to open the doors 210 00:08:32,870 --> 00:08:35,538 JOANNE MCKENNA: to getting that support in place. 211 00:08:35,539 --> 00:08:36,848 JOANNE MCKENNA: In terms of some of the professionals, 212 00:08:36,849 --> 00:08:39,529 JOANNE MCKENNA: they'll ring up not just because of 213 00:08:39,530 --> 00:08:41,779 JOANNE MCKENNA: domestic abuse, but they will say this 214 00:08:41,780 --> 00:08:43,459 JOANNE MCKENNA: child's coming into school late all the 215 00:08:43,460 --> 00:08:45,589 JOANNE MCKENNA: time. They're off all the time, they're 216 00:08:45,590 --> 00:08:47,149 JOANNE MCKENNA: not ready to learn when they get here. 217 00:08:47,150 --> 00:08:49,369 JOANNE MCKENNA: They can't concentrate. 218 00:08:49,370 --> 00:08:50,869 JOANNE MCKENNA: I'm seeing things withing their artwork. 219 00:08:50,870 --> 00:08:52,129 JOANNE MCKENNA: They're presenting angry or they're 220 00:08:52,130 --> 00:08:54,451 JOANNE MCKENNA: withdrawn. And it's when we can turn round 221 00:08:54,452 --> 00:08:57,079 JOANNE MCKENNA: and we can say to them, have you asked 222 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,269 JOANNE MCKENNA: about the lived experience, do we know 223 00:08:59,270 --> 00:09:01,039 JOANNE MCKENNA: what's going on? Are the parents saying 224 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,499 JOANNE MCKENNA: things within the playground? And it's 225 00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:06,169 JOANNE MCKENNA: about putting those jigsaw pieces together 226 00:09:06,170 --> 00:09:07,789 JOANNE MCKENNA: with the child and getting that child's 227 00:09:07,790 --> 00:09:09,919 JOANNE MCKENNA: voice and learning more about what's going 228 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:11,089 JOANNE MCKENNA: on within that home. 229 00:09:11,090 --> 00:09:13,309 PADDI VINT: Thanks, Jo. So, you know, obviously we were 230 00:09:13,310 --> 00:09:15,739 PADDI VINT: chatting there about some of the way it 231 00:09:15,740 --> 00:09:18,649 PADDI VINT: presents and the Helpline has received over 232 00:09:18,650 --> 00:09:21,979 PADDI VINT: 6,500 contacts in relation 233 00:09:21,980 --> 00:09:23,899 PADDI VINT: to domestic abuse from adults. 234 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:26,089 PADDI VINT: And as you quite rightly say, it's not just 235 00:09:26,090 --> 00:09:28,100 PADDI VINT: the non-abusive parents who are contacting us, 236 00:09:28,101 --> 00:09:31,219 PADDI VINT: it's those neighbours and parents 237 00:09:31,220 --> 00:09:32,809 PADDI VINT: and professionals. 238 00:09:32,810 --> 00:09:35,329 PADDI VINT: And it does seem to differ slightly from what 239 00:09:35,330 --> 00:09:37,189 PADDI VINT: Cormac is telling us, what children are 240 00:09:37,190 --> 00:09:39,469 PADDI VINT: telling us, and how it's being presented. 241 00:09:39,470 --> 00:09:42,019 PADDI VINT: Tell me a little bit more about how maybe, 242 00:09:42,020 --> 00:09:44,239 PADDI VINT: when professionals phone us, what are they 243 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:45,859 PADDI VINT: saying? What are they telling us that 244 00:09:45,860 --> 00:09:48,079 PADDI VINT: children's behaviours are like? 245 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,359 JOANNE MCKENNA: So it could be... A child could be 246 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,219 JOANNE MCKENNA: particularly very, very angry all the 247 00:09:52,220 --> 00:09:55,819 JOANNE MCKENNA: time; argumentative, smashing things up, 248 00:09:55,820 --> 00:09:57,038 JOANNE MCKENNA: getting involved with criminality. Bunking 249 00:09:58,130 --> 00:10:00,409 JOANNE MCKENNA: off school and skipping school. 250 00:10:00,410 --> 00:10:02,691 JOANNE MCKENNA: So it could be a range of things. 251 00:10:02,692 --> 00:10:05,659 JOANNE MCKENNA: In terms of babies, it's 252 00:10:05,660 --> 00:10:06,919 JOANNE MCKENNA: how that child's presenting. 253 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:08,839 JOANNE MCKENNA: Is it presenting as neglected, is it 254 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,309 JOANNE MCKENNA: crying all the time? 255 00:10:10,310 --> 00:10:12,289 JOANNE MCKENNA: Is it reluctant to go to a certain adult 256 00:10:12,290 --> 00:10:14,269 JOANNE MCKENNA: because it can't use its voice? 257 00:10:14,270 --> 00:10:16,609 JOANNE MCKENNA: So it's about using their observational 258 00:10:16,610 --> 00:10:18,499 JOANNE MCKENNA: skills and saying this child, this baby is 259 00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:20,959 JOANNE MCKENNA: not presenting normally and reaching the 260 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,879 JOANNE MCKENNA: milestones that they should be reaching. 261 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,469 PADDI VINT: Because often things like that could get 262 00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:27,679 PADDI VINT: overlooked as 101 other reasons 263 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:29,719 PADDI VINT: other than domestic abuse. 264 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,179 PADDI VINT: So as you say, it's really important that we 265 00:10:32,180 --> 00:10:34,039 PADDI VINT: have those conversations. 266 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,229 PADDI VINT: Cormac, in terms of, you know, Jo had 267 00:10:36,230 --> 00:10:38,149 PADDI VINT: mentioned there and yourself had mentioned 268 00:10:38,150 --> 00:10:41,239 PADDI VINT: about coercive control within those kind of 269 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,249 PADDI VINT: behaviours and relationships. 270 00:10:43,250 --> 00:10:45,559 PADDI VINT: Is that something that Childline are seeing 271 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:48,589 PADDI VINT: more and more within the relationships? 272 00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:50,929 CORMAC NOLAN: Yeah, we are definitely seeing more of that 273 00:10:50,930 --> 00:10:53,839 CORMAC NOLAN: in relationships and we are seeing it 274 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,719 CORMAC NOLAN: in relationships between young people as 275 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,299 CORMAC NOLAN: well. And I think one of the big 276 00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:01,189 CORMAC NOLAN: misunderstandings that young people still 277 00:11:01,190 --> 00:11:03,019 CORMAC NOLAN: bring to us is that domastic abuse can only 278 00:11:03,020 --> 00:11:05,749 CORMAC NOLAN: happen in the home between a married couple. 279 00:11:05,750 --> 00:11:07,399 CORMAC NOLAN: And I think that's something we try and 280 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,619 CORMAC NOLAN: explain to them, that it's within a 281 00:11:09,620 --> 00:11:11,959 CORMAC NOLAN: relationship setting and it doesn't have to 282 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,309 CORMAC NOLAN: be someone who lives in the home on a 283 00:11:13,310 --> 00:11:15,829 CORMAC NOLAN: regular basis or who is directly connected 284 00:11:15,830 --> 00:11:18,289 CORMAC NOLAN: to the family. Yeah, we definitely do see 285 00:11:18,290 --> 00:11:20,479 CORMAC NOLAN: more about coercive control in 286 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,089 CORMAC NOLAN: relationships, as we said earlier, around 287 00:11:23,090 --> 00:11:25,759 CORMAC NOLAN: money, around access to other people, about 288 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:27,859 CORMAC NOLAN: seeing and visiting family or about family 289 00:11:27,860 --> 00:11:30,469 CORMAC NOLAN: coming over. And children and young people 290 00:11:30,470 --> 00:11:32,629 CORMAC NOLAN: often know that that's not normal. 291 00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:34,549 CORMAC NOLAN: They know that that's not right, but they 292 00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:36,229 CORMAC NOLAN: just can't piece it together. 293 00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:39,439 CORMAC NOLAN: They don't have the opportunity or the space 294 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:40,759 CORMAC NOLAN: to think about it. And that's one of the 295 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,709 CORMAC NOLAN: things Childline tries to offer them is the 296 00:11:42,710 --> 00:11:44,179 CORMAC NOLAN: space to think about it. 297 00:11:44,180 --> 00:11:45,709 CORMAC NOLAN: Can I just say, Paddi, as well, it was 298 00:11:45,710 --> 00:11:47,959 CORMAC NOLAN: interesting listening to Jo there when she 299 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,119 CORMAC NOLAN: was talking about the acting out behaviours 300 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:51,445 CORMAC NOLAN: that they see in children and young people. 301 00:11:51,446 --> 00:11:54,619 CORMAC NOLAN: Often we hear from children and young people 302 00:11:54,620 --> 00:11:56,989 CORMAC NOLAN: about hidden behaviours. Things like self 303 00:11:56,990 --> 00:12:00,319 CORMAC NOLAN: harm, about poor mental health and 304 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,599 CORMAC NOLAN: addictions, eating disorders, things like 305 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,699 CORMAC NOLAN: that; that the young person struggles with 306 00:12:04,700 --> 00:12:07,549 CORMAC NOLAN: and struggles with on their own, but is as a 307 00:12:07,550 --> 00:12:10,129 CORMAC NOLAN: result of the emotional disturbance and the 308 00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:12,439 CORMAC NOLAN: emotional feelings that are created for them 309 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,089 CORMAC NOLAN: and the lack of support, often that is there 310 00:12:14,090 --> 00:12:16,579 CORMAC NOLAN: for the young person, when they see this 311 00:12:16,580 --> 00:12:19,245 CORMAC NOLAN: thing going on in the home setting or in a 312 00:12:19,246 --> 00:12:21,169 CORMAC NOLAN: parent's relationship. 313 00:12:21,170 --> 00:12:24,319 PADDI VINT: Cormac, would it be fair to say that sometimes 314 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,169 PADDI VINT: these behaviours that are outwardly presenting 315 00:12:27,170 --> 00:12:30,229 PADDI VINT: to the NSPCC Helpline are 316 00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:32,989 PADDI VINT: driven from a place of fear for some of the 317 00:12:32,990 --> 00:12:34,099 PADDI VINT: young people? 318 00:12:34,100 --> 00:12:37,039 CORMAC NOLAN: Absolutely. It's a fear of the physical 319 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,079 CORMAC NOLAN: circumstances. It's a fear of the emotional 320 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,719 CORMAC NOLAN: circumstances. But there's also a fear for 321 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,729 CORMAC NOLAN: children and young people of what is going 322 00:12:43,730 --> 00:12:46,309 CORMAC NOLAN: to happen. What's going to happen next? 323 00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:48,649 CORMAC NOLAN: Am I at risk of physical harm? 324 00:12:48,650 --> 00:12:51,299 CORMAC NOLAN: Are my siblings at risk of physical harm? 325 00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:54,499 CORMAC NOLAN: If, following a conversation with Childline, 326 00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:56,469 CORMAC NOLAN: if this ends up being reported — which 327 00:12:57,620 --> 00:12:59,509 CORMAC NOLAN: could be an option, we wouldn't force a 328 00:12:59,510 --> 00:13:01,069 CORMAC NOLAN: young person into anything unless we had 329 00:13:01,070 --> 00:13:03,109 CORMAC NOLAN: major concerns, unless Childline had major 330 00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:05,299 CORMAC NOLAN: concerns — what will happen next? 331 00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:07,849 CORMAC NOLAN: Will we be separated as a family? 332 00:13:07,850 --> 00:13:10,069 CORMAC NOLAN: Will things go on as they were. 333 00:13:10,070 --> 00:13:12,709 CORMAC NOLAN: There is fear but that fear is fed by a 334 00:13:12,710 --> 00:13:15,889 CORMAC NOLAN: number of concerns for the young person. 335 00:13:15,890 --> 00:13:18,559 PADDI VINT: It's interesting to see that young people are 336 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,229 PADDI VINT: now recognising this coercive controlling 337 00:13:21,230 --> 00:13:23,539 PADDI VINT: behaviour, which could be a fairly new term 338 00:13:23,540 --> 00:13:25,009 PADDI VINT: for a lot of people. 339 00:13:25,010 --> 00:13:27,859 PADDI VINT: But it's really important that we reflect that 340 00:13:27,860 --> 00:13:30,199 PADDI VINT: it's a term now that's used in legislation, 341 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,809 PADDI VINT: which is incredible, and it gives that power 342 00:13:32,810 --> 00:13:35,989 PADDI VINT: and ownership back to the non-abusive parent, 343 00:13:35,990 --> 00:13:37,819 PADDI VINT: to the victim themselves and to the children 344 00:13:37,820 --> 00:13:39,829 PADDI VINT: that are affected. And it's also really 345 00:13:39,830 --> 00:13:42,709 PADDI VINT: important that we also reflect now that in 346 00:13:42,710 --> 00:13:44,959 PADDI VINT: legislation, we're seeing children as very 347 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,839 PADDI VINT: much co-victims and not the kind of 348 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,719 PADDI VINT: 'seen-and-not-heard' version where children 349 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,329 PADDI VINT: are just merely in the periphery of these 350 00:13:53,330 --> 00:13:54,949 PADDI VINT: situations that are playing out. 351 00:13:54,950 --> 00:13:57,679 PADDI VINT: That we're actually recognising these children 352 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:00,829 PADDI VINT: are direct victims themselves. 353 00:14:00,830 --> 00:14:03,589 PADDI VINT: Is that something that is reflected when 354 00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:05,479 PADDI VINT: people contact Helpline, Jo? 355 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,429 JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad that 356 00:14:07,430 --> 00:14:09,589 JOANNE MCKENNA: we're moving away from a child witnessing 357 00:14:09,590 --> 00:14:11,359 JOANNE MCKENNA: domestic abuse to being a victim in their 358 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,299 JOANNE MCKENNA: own right. A lot of the children that 359 00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:16,669 JOANNE MCKENNA: are coming through within the families 360 00:14:16,670 --> 00:14:18,289 JOANNE MCKENNA: that we're dealing with, they're often 361 00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:21,409 JOANNE MCKENNA: caretakers or protective of being 362 00:14:21,410 --> 00:14:23,239 JOANNE MCKENNA: the in-between with the parents. 363 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:24,240 JOANNE MCKENNA: You know, the go-between. 364 00:14:24,740 --> 00:14:26,769 JOANNE MCKENNA: We're finding that young people and 365 00:14:26,770 --> 00:14:29,779 JOANNE MCKENNA: children are getting tags put on them so 366 00:14:29,780 --> 00:14:32,759 JOANNE MCKENNA: the abusive parent can follow where 367 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,399 JOANNE MCKENNA: they are, where they can spy on them. 368 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:35,732 JOANNE MCKENNA: They're getting asked questions about the 369 00:14:35,733 --> 00:14:37,879 JOANNE MCKENNA: other parent. Who are their parent's with, 370 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,229 JOANNE MCKENNA: what they're doing, what they're spending 371 00:14:39,230 --> 00:14:41,659 JOANNE MCKENNA: time with, withholding maintenance 372 00:14:41,660 --> 00:14:43,669 JOANNE MCKENNA: payments. Those kind of things stop that 373 00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:46,699 JOANNE MCKENNA: child from being able to experience good, 374 00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:48,919 JOANNE MCKENNA: nice things and get the care that they 375 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,409 JOANNE MCKENNA: need. Name-calling the other parent, 376 00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:54,469 JOANNE MCKENNA: undermining. And it's the child who's 377 00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:55,879 JOANNE MCKENNA: in the centre of all this, and it's the 378 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,769 JOANNE MCKENNA: child that's impacted the most. 379 00:14:57,770 --> 00:15:00,949 PADDI VINT: So that post-separation abuse very much being 380 00:15:00,950 --> 00:15:04,249 PADDI VINT: a key feature in the ongoing abuse between 381 00:15:04,250 --> 00:15:06,679 PADDI VINT: the parents, but with the child being a direct 382 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,449 PADDI VINT: victim within that. 383 00:15:08,450 --> 00:15:10,404 JOANNE MCKENNA: Absolutely Paddi, yeah. And it's the 384 00:15:11,540 --> 00:15:13,519 JOANNE MCKENNA: impact on the child's mental health and 385 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,349 JOANNE MCKENNA: who that child should side with. 386 00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:17,269 JOANNE MCKENNA: Should that child be telling one parent 387 00:15:17,270 --> 00:15:18,979 JOANNE MCKENNA: what the parent's doing and that 388 00:15:18,980 --> 00:15:21,049 JOANNE MCKENNA: questioning. And they're not allowed to be 389 00:15:21,050 --> 00:15:23,239 JOANNE MCKENNA: children. They're that go-between and that 390 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,849 JOANNE MCKENNA: caretaker of the two adults. 391 00:15:25,850 --> 00:15:28,879 PADDI VINT: Jo mentions their how some children 392 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,579 PADDI VINT: take on those protective roles and they're the 393 00:15:31,580 --> 00:15:34,759 PADDI VINT: kind of caretaker roles that we sometimes see. 394 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,189 PADDI VINT: And there is a level of responsibility that 395 00:15:37,190 --> 00:15:40,549 PADDI VINT: some young people potentially take on board 396 00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:42,829 PADDI VINT: when they're in that situation, particularly 397 00:15:42,830 --> 00:15:44,299 PADDI VINT: in the home environment. 398 00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:46,909 PADDI VINT: Cormac, what would you— what would your advice 399 00:15:46,910 --> 00:15:49,759 PADDI VINT: to those young people be around their 400 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,919 PADDI VINT: responsibility or what shouldn't be their 401 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,329 PADDI VINT: responsibility? 402 00:15:53,330 --> 00:15:56,419 CORMAC NOLAN: It's very clear to Childline that it's not 403 00:15:56,420 --> 00:15:59,449 CORMAC NOLAN: a child's responsibility to fix 404 00:15:59,450 --> 00:16:02,029 CORMAC NOLAN: what is going on at home, and it is not a 405 00:16:02,030 --> 00:16:05,839 CORMAC NOLAN: child's responsibility to long-term look 406 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,569 CORMAC NOLAN: after all the needs of siblings. 407 00:16:08,570 --> 00:16:10,339 CORMAC NOLAN: A term we often use in Childline when we're 408 00:16:10,340 --> 00:16:12,559 CORMAC NOLAN: talking to them because of what they say to 409 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,019 CORMAC NOLAN: us is it's not a child's fault either. 410 00:16:15,020 --> 00:16:16,759 CORMAC NOLAN: Some children can feel that they are 411 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,949 CORMAC NOLAN: responsible for what is happening in terms 412 00:16:18,950 --> 00:16:20,839 CORMAC NOLAN: of having caused it. That's nonsense. 413 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,339 CORMAC NOLAN: Of course not. 414 00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:24,109 CORMAC NOLAN: But it's also not a child's responsibility 415 00:16:24,110 --> 00:16:26,569 CORMAC NOLAN: to fix it. What we want to do is take that 416 00:16:26,570 --> 00:16:28,459 CORMAC NOLAN: responsibility in Childline. 417 00:16:28,460 --> 00:16:30,919 CORMAC NOLAN: To take the responsibility off the child or 418 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,349 CORMAC NOLAN: young person, to help them understand what 419 00:16:33,350 --> 00:16:36,259 CORMAC NOLAN: is going and collaborate with them to 420 00:16:36,260 --> 00:16:39,289 CORMAC NOLAN: get help and support; how to cope 421 00:16:39,290 --> 00:16:42,259 CORMAC NOLAN: with what is going on, how to live an 422 00:16:42,260 --> 00:16:44,899 CORMAC NOLAN: ordinary childhood and how to get help to 423 00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:47,209 CORMAC NOLAN: make things stop so it is not a child's 424 00:16:47,210 --> 00:16:49,879 CORMAC NOLAN: responsibility to fix things or make things 425 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,549 CORMAC NOLAN: better. They may well feel that, and part of 426 00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:54,690 CORMAC NOLAN: the conversation with Childline can be about 427 00:16:54,691 --> 00:16:56,719 CORMAC NOLAN: teasing that out and helping a young person 428 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,049 CORMAC NOLAN: to understand the complexity that is there 429 00:17:00,050 --> 00:17:02,749 CORMAC NOLAN: and that blame or responsibility does not 430 00:17:02,750 --> 00:17:04,309 CORMAC NOLAN: begin or end with them. 431 00:17:04,310 --> 00:17:06,709 PADDI VINT: I certainly remember as a Helpline 432 00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:09,169 PADDI VINT: practitioner, taking a call from an adult 433 00:17:09,170 --> 00:17:12,049 PADDI VINT: sibling who had left university, and it's 434 00:17:12,050 --> 00:17:14,179 PADDI VINT: quite poignant at the time now — that this is 435 00:17:14,180 --> 00:17:17,059 PADDI VINT: the time for older siblings leaving to start 436 00:17:17,060 --> 00:17:19,459 PADDI VINT: their university journey. 437 00:17:19,460 --> 00:17:21,679 PADDI VINT: And I always remember a contact we received 438 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,499 PADDI VINT: from a young student who had just started 439 00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:27,739 PADDI VINT: their first year, worried about leaving 440 00:17:27,740 --> 00:17:30,229 PADDI VINT: the home environment because they were the one 441 00:17:30,230 --> 00:17:32,419 PADDI VINT: who were that kind of protective factor. 442 00:17:32,420 --> 00:17:34,489 PADDI VINT: That when there had been an incident the night 443 00:17:34,490 --> 00:17:36,729 PADDI VINT: before, they got their brother and sister up 444 00:17:36,730 --> 00:17:38,719 PADDI VINT: and dressed for school, they gave them their 445 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,789 PADDI VINT: breakfast, they made sure they got picked up 446 00:17:40,790 --> 00:17:42,739 PADDI VINT: from school on time. 447 00:17:42,740 --> 00:17:45,679 PADDI VINT: And her concern was she needed to be out 448 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,469 PADDI VINT: of that environment. And she knew that. 449 00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:50,839 PADDI VINT: But her biggest worry was that she was leaving 450 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,289 PADDI VINT: behind those two younger siblings in the home. 451 00:17:54,290 --> 00:17:56,359 PADDI VINT: Jo, I'm just wondering, is that something that 452 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:58,519 PADDI VINT: you see frequently as well? 453 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,739 JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, we do. Sadly, we do get lots of 454 00:18:00,740 --> 00:18:02,599 JOANNE MCKENNA: siblings calling up. 455 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,549 JOANNE MCKENNA: Young people are worried about their 456 00:18:04,550 --> 00:18:07,129 JOANNE MCKENNA: siblings and the parent that's being abuse 457 00:18:07,130 --> 00:18:09,499 JOANNE MCKENNA: and they do feel that responsibility. 458 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:11,539 JOANNE MCKENNA: We can reassure them, validate them and 459 00:18:11,540 --> 00:18:13,219 JOANNE MCKENNA: say, you know, you're not responsible. 460 00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:15,619 JOANNE MCKENNA: As Cormac said, you're not responsible for 461 00:18:15,620 --> 00:18:18,019 JOANNE MCKENNA: this. This is the responsibility of the 462 00:18:18,020 --> 00:18:20,239 JOANNE MCKENNA: abusive parents and we can get you the 463 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:21,574 JOANNE MCKENNA: help and we can get you that support. 464 00:18:21,575 --> 00:18:23,775 JOANNE MCKENNA: So, yeah, we do see a lot. 465 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,279 PADDI VINT: What safeguarding actions should be taken 466 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,159 PADDI VINT: by professionals if they do have concerns? 467 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,039 PADDI VINT: That they're seeing behaviours played out by 468 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,769 PADDI VINT: children. They may or may not have a direct 469 00:18:36,770 --> 00:18:39,109 PADDI VINT: disclosure of what's happening in the home. 470 00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:41,719 PADDI VINT: What can professionals working with those 471 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,569 PADDI VINT: children and young people do to safeguard 472 00:18:44,570 --> 00:18:45,570 PADDI VINT: them, Jo? 473 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,149 JOANNE MCKENNA: They can start by actually speaking to the 474 00:18:47,150 --> 00:18:49,189 JOANNE MCKENNA: child and listening to the child. 475 00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:51,289 JOANNE MCKENNA: Learning about their experiences of what's 476 00:18:51,290 --> 00:18:52,789 JOANNE MCKENNA: going on within the home. 477 00:18:52,790 --> 00:18:55,309 JOANNE MCKENNA: You know, being interested in that child. 478 00:18:55,310 --> 00:18:57,709 JOANNE MCKENNA: Following their safeguarding policy for 479 00:18:57,710 --> 00:18:59,299 JOANNE MCKENNA: one, especially if it's in a school or 480 00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:02,269 JOANNE MCKENNA: sports coaching. Every agency 481 00:19:02,270 --> 00:19:03,889 JOANNE MCKENNA: or every organisation should have some 482 00:19:03,890 --> 00:19:06,112 JOANNE MCKENNA: kinds of safeguarding policy if they're 483 00:19:06,113 --> 00:19:08,209 JOANNE MCKENNA: working directly with children. 484 00:19:08,210 --> 00:19:09,281 JOANNE MCKENNA: And getting advice, further advice, 485 00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:12,769 JOANNE MCKENNA: calling the helpline and saying, you know, 486 00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:14,899 JOANNE MCKENNA: things aren't sitting right with me. 487 00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:16,879 JOANNE MCKENNA: I've got this child displaying these kinds 488 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,169 JOANNE MCKENNA: of behaviours. 489 00:19:18,170 --> 00:19:19,669 JOANNE MCKENNA: We can help with those referrals to 490 00:19:19,670 --> 00:19:21,649 JOANNE MCKENNA: safeguarding agencies such as children's 491 00:19:21,650 --> 00:19:24,229 JOANNE MCKENNA: social care and the police. 492 00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:26,689 JOANNE MCKENNA: So it's about multi-agency working, Paddi. 493 00:19:26,690 --> 00:19:29,089 JOANNE MCKENNA: It's not just about sitting on these 494 00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:31,279 JOANNE MCKENNA: worries and concerns. If an agency's got 495 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,519 JOANNE MCKENNA: any concerns, we need to act on it and 496 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,059 JOANNE MCKENNA: safeguard that child. 497 00:19:35,060 --> 00:19:38,599 PADDI VINT: I also think that sometimes those small — what 498 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,449 PADDI VINT: could maybe be insignificant — things that 499 00:19:41,450 --> 00:19:44,479 PADDI VINT: professionals are maybe seeing— so little 500 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,639 PADDI VINT: things, they're late one day, maybe it's a 501 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,919 PADDI VINT: Friday after pick-up or drop-off. 502 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,319 PADDI VINT: Then the following week it's the same. 503 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:52,899 PADDI VINT: Then they've come in and they've forgotten 504 00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:55,609 PADDI VINT: kit, or they're a little bit upset and they're 505 00:19:55,610 --> 00:19:58,669 PADDI VINT: acting out. In isolation, those things may 506 00:19:58,670 --> 00:20:01,879 PADDI VINT: seem quite small, but it's when you start to 507 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,339 PADDI VINT: record them and create a timeline and a 508 00:20:04,340 --> 00:20:07,579 PADDI VINT: chronology of those behaviours 509 00:20:07,580 --> 00:20:10,429 PADDI VINT: that you're seeing, how the child's appearing, 510 00:20:10,430 --> 00:20:13,549 PADDI VINT: going home or coming back, those are sometimes 511 00:20:13,550 --> 00:20:16,819 PADDI VINT: key things that can really support 512 00:20:16,820 --> 00:20:19,939 PADDI VINT: your sense that something's not right. 513 00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:22,189 PADDI VINT: When you actually look back those could what 514 00:20:22,190 --> 00:20:24,439 PADDI VINT: be small, insignificant things can actually 515 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,929 PADDI VINT: appear to have a much bigger part to play. 516 00:20:26,930 --> 00:20:29,119 JOANNE MCKENNA: Yeah, and we do promote that with the 517 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:30,919 JOANNE MCKENNA: victims that we work with when there's 518 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,529 JOANNE MCKENNA: children in post-separation abuse. 519 00:20:33,530 --> 00:20:35,179 JOANNE MCKENNA: It's about can you see a difference in 520 00:20:35,180 --> 00:20:36,619 JOANNE MCKENNA: your child when they come back from being 521 00:20:36,620 --> 00:20:37,909 JOANNE MCKENNA: with that parent. What are they like 522 00:20:37,910 --> 00:20:40,279 JOANNE MCKENNA: before they go? Is there any change in the 523 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,079 JOANNE MCKENNA: behaviour, are they acting up when they 524 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,929 JOANNE MCKENNA: come back? And we do advise to keep a log 525 00:20:44,930 --> 00:20:46,608 JOANNE MCKENNA: of that because, further on the line, 526 00:20:46,609 --> 00:20:49,279 JOANNE MCKENNA: should the family court have to get 527 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,739 JOANNE MCKENNA: involved, that can be used to demonstrate 528 00:20:51,740 --> 00:20:53,299 JOANNE MCKENNA: the child's voice of how they feel about 529 00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:54,529 JOANNE MCKENNA: that other parent. 530 00:20:54,530 --> 00:20:57,259 PADDI VINT: For me as well, I don't think there's ever too 531 00:20:57,260 --> 00:21:00,679 PADDI VINT: early a time to start introducing healthy 532 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,839 PADDI VINT: and unhealthy relationships. 533 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,389 PADDI VINT: I think it's something that we need to become 534 00:21:05,390 --> 00:21:07,879 PADDI VINT: really good at as professionals, about calling 535 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,999 PADDI VINT: out behaviours that we see as maybe 536 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,489 PADDI VINT: being unhelpful or unhealthy. 537 00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:16,369 PADDI VINT: Would that be fair and true from a Childline 538 00:21:16,370 --> 00:21:18,139 PADDI VINT: point of view as well? 539 00:21:18,140 --> 00:21:19,519 CORMAC NOLAN: Absolutely. 540 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,529 CORMAC NOLAN: We also have content on the Childline 541 00:21:21,530 --> 00:21:23,449 CORMAC NOLAN: website around healthy and unhealthy 542 00:21:23,450 --> 00:21:25,729 CORMAC NOLAN: relationships, and that has stemmed from the 543 00:21:25,730 --> 00:21:27,179 CORMAC NOLAN: number of contacts that we have that we 544 00:21:27,180 --> 00:21:28,759 CORMAC NOLAN: talked about earlier around coercive 545 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,429 CORMAC NOLAN: behaviour. Children and young people feeling 546 00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:34,019 CORMAC NOLAN: that something's not right, but not knowing 547 00:21:34,020 --> 00:21:36,809 CORMAC NOLAN: exactly what that is or understanding the 548 00:21:36,810 --> 00:21:37,979 CORMAC NOLAN: extent of it. 549 00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:40,469 PADDI VINT: We understand for anybody talking about 550 00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:44,069 PADDI VINT: domestic abuse, it isn't easy for adults 551 00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:46,649 PADDI VINT: and absolutely true it's the same that it's 552 00:21:46,650 --> 00:21:48,659 PADDI VINT: not always easy for children and young people. 553 00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:52,019 PADDI VINT: And I remember we had a parent contact us 554 00:21:52,020 --> 00:21:54,989 PADDI VINT: to tell us that her son, he'd been quite 555 00:21:54,990 --> 00:21:57,959 PADDI VINT: uncomfortable with his father and stepmother. 556 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,629 PADDI VINT: They were shouting and, as you said, arguing 557 00:22:00,630 --> 00:22:03,419 PADDI VINT: was the terminology that he had used, but it 558 00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:05,339 PADDI VINT: had been dismissed by the father when mum 559 00:22:05,340 --> 00:22:07,469 PADDI VINT: spoke to him. But a few weeks later, 560 00:22:07,470 --> 00:22:09,599 PADDI VINT: children's services contacted mum and said 561 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,579 PADDI VINT: that there had actually been a domestic abuse 562 00:22:11,580 --> 00:22:13,649 PADDI VINT: incident in the home with the father and the 563 00:22:13,650 --> 00:22:15,659 PADDI VINT: stepmom and that her son wouldn't be able to 564 00:22:15,660 --> 00:22:17,879 PADDI VINT: stay there any further. 565 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,219 PADDI VINT: And again, mum really struggled with just 566 00:22:20,220 --> 00:22:23,249 PADDI VINT: chatting to her son about what happened 567 00:22:23,250 --> 00:22:25,089 PADDI VINT: or even to get any information. 568 00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:27,809 PADDI VINT: It was as if he was kind of shutting down. 569 00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:30,899 PADDI VINT: What do children and young people tell 570 00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:33,599 PADDI VINT: Childline about how they want to be supported? 571 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,209 PADDI VINT: Because I'm conscious that sometimes as adults 572 00:22:36,210 --> 00:22:39,149 PADDI VINT: we can be really well-meaning, but we 573 00:22:39,150 --> 00:22:40,529 PADDI VINT: don't always get it right. 574 00:22:40,530 --> 00:22:42,629 PADDI VINT: And we come from a place of what would help 575 00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:45,389 PADDI VINT: us, but that's maybe not how children want to 576 00:22:45,390 --> 00:22:46,669 PADDI VINT: be supported. 577 00:22:46,670 --> 00:22:48,179 CORMAC NOLAN: I think that's a really important question 578 00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:51,089 CORMAC NOLAN: because the focus has to be on a child 579 00:22:51,090 --> 00:22:54,299 CORMAC NOLAN: or young person and it's a dangerous 580 00:22:54,300 --> 00:22:55,979 CORMAC NOLAN: assumption to make that the child or young 581 00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:58,529 CORMAC NOLAN: person doesn't know what they want or 582 00:22:58,530 --> 00:23:00,719 CORMAC NOLAN: doesn't know what's best for them. 583 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,299 CORMAC NOLAN: So we spend time at Childline trying to 584 00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:06,149 CORMAC NOLAN: figure out what a child wants to happen. 585 00:23:06,150 --> 00:23:08,129 CORMAC NOLAN: I think ultimately the obvious answer to 586 00:23:08,130 --> 00:23:09,959 CORMAC NOLAN: that question is they want what's happening 587 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,299 CORMAC NOLAN: to stop. But we all know that that's not a 588 00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:14,189 CORMAC NOLAN: straightforward process. 589 00:23:14,190 --> 00:23:17,339 CORMAC NOLAN: So we can break that process 590 00:23:17,340 --> 00:23:20,099 CORMAC NOLAN: up into little pieces with a young person. 591 00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:21,869 CORMAC NOLAN: What can they do to protect themselves? 592 00:23:21,870 --> 00:23:24,059 CORMAC NOLAN: What can they do to distract themselves? 593 00:23:24,060 --> 00:23:26,189 CORMAC NOLAN: How can they cope with the arguing when it's 594 00:23:26,190 --> 00:23:28,799 CORMAC NOLAN: happening? How can they find a space and a 595 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,149 CORMAC NOLAN: time for themselves? 596 00:23:30,150 --> 00:23:33,089 CORMAC NOLAN: Ultimately, they want things to go back to 597 00:23:33,090 --> 00:23:35,519 CORMAC NOLAN: how they were before this happened to a 598 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,199 CORMAC NOLAN: happier time. Often they'll say they want to 599 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,389 CORMAC NOLAN: be like other families, because when they're 600 00:23:39,390 --> 00:23:41,759 CORMAC NOLAN: going to school, they're not hearing their 601 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,189 CORMAC NOLAN: peers talking about abuse necessarily, or 602 00:23:44,190 --> 00:23:46,319 CORMAC NOLAN: domestic abuse taking place in the home. 603 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,809 CORMAC NOLAN: So they want things to stop. 604 00:23:48,810 --> 00:23:50,129 CORMAC NOLAN: They want to feel normal. 605 00:23:50,130 --> 00:23:51,839 CORMAC NOLAN: They want things to be normal for them and 606 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,549 CORMAC NOLAN: they want them and their siblings to be 607 00:23:53,550 --> 00:23:56,039 CORMAC NOLAN: safe. And sometimes children and young 608 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,649 CORMAC NOLAN: people who speak to Childline have got some 609 00:23:58,650 --> 00:24:00,719 CORMAC NOLAN: of their own ideas and have already got some 610 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,759 CORMAC NOLAN: strategies in place. And sometimes it can be 611 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,639 CORMAC NOLAN: just about confirming and affirming that for 612 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,159 CORMAC NOLAN: the young person. On a more basic level — 613 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,809 CORMAC NOLAN: and this is true of any topic — children and 614 00:24:10,810 --> 00:24:12,629 CORMAC NOLAN: young people also just want a space where 615 00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:14,279 CORMAC NOLAN: they can express what's going on. 616 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,529 CORMAC NOLAN: They want somewhere where someone who is 617 00:24:16,530 --> 00:24:19,199 CORMAC NOLAN: impartial and supportive will listen to what 618 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,329 CORMAC NOLAN: they have to say, will help them to 619 00:24:21,330 --> 00:24:23,669 CORMAC NOLAN: understand, piece things together, be 620 00:24:23,670 --> 00:24:25,529 CORMAC NOLAN: accepting of what's going on. 621 00:24:25,530 --> 00:24:27,989 CORMAC NOLAN: Yes, non-judgemental, and will give them 622 00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:30,389 CORMAC NOLAN: time and space and, I think really crucially 623 00:24:30,390 --> 00:24:32,849 CORMAC NOLAN: for Childline, Paddi, be available when they 624 00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:34,889 CORMAC NOLAN: need them to be available because Childline 625 00:24:34,890 --> 00:24:37,709 CORMAC NOLAN: is a 24 hour a day, seven day a week service 626 00:24:37,710 --> 00:24:39,479 CORMAC NOLAN: with a number of ways which children and 627 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,429 CORMAC NOLAN: young people can contact them. And for a lot 628 00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:42,869 CORMAC NOLAN: of children and young people we know sometimes 629 00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:44,489 CORMAC NOLAN: late at night is maybe the only time that 630 00:24:44,490 --> 00:24:46,499 CORMAC NOLAN: they can contact or in the morning on the 631 00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:49,409 CORMAC NOLAN: way to school. So I think all of those 632 00:24:49,410 --> 00:24:51,059 CORMAC NOLAN: things are what children and young people 633 00:24:51,060 --> 00:24:53,219 CORMAC NOLAN: want from us as an organisation. 634 00:24:53,220 --> 00:24:56,159 PADDI VINT: And certainly those are all the skills there 635 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,079 PADDI VINT: you said — you know, being that impartial, 636 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,109 PADDI VINT: accepting, non-judgemental — those can 637 00:25:01,110 --> 00:25:04,229 PADDI VINT: all be things that other professionals who are 638 00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:06,389 PADDI VINT: supporting that young person can bring. 639 00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:08,738 PADDI VINT: Certainly a teacher, a sports coach... 640 00:25:08,739 --> 00:25:11,849 PADDI VINT: As you say, creating that space to have 641 00:25:11,850 --> 00:25:14,759 PADDI VINT: those conversations and to work through 642 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,739 PADDI VINT: those issues with the child can be really 643 00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:19,349 PADDI VINT: important and powerful for that child because 644 00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:22,289 PADDI VINT: it's not always the parent that's going to 645 00:25:22,290 --> 00:25:23,999 PADDI VINT: be able to offer that support. 646 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,699 PADDI VINT: We do need to look to our counsellors like 647 00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:28,949 PADDI VINT: yourselves and Childline and those other 648 00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:31,019 PADDI VINT: special adults in that child's life to be able 649 00:25:31,020 --> 00:25:32,699 PADDI VINT: to support that. 650 00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:35,729 PADDI VINT: Thank you, Jo and Cormac, it's been great to 651 00:25:35,730 --> 00:25:38,699 PADDI VINT: be able to bring together two sides of 652 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:41,759 PADDI VINT: a story from the NSPCC, one from the Helpline 653 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,559 PADDI VINT: and one from Childline, and seeing how 654 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,779 PADDI VINT: actually, while there may be differences, they 655 00:25:45,780 --> 00:25:48,149 PADDI VINT: certainly do cross over. 656 00:25:48,150 --> 00:25:50,639 PADDI VINT: I think that's been hopefully really useful 657 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,649 PADDI VINT: for some professionals listening to the 658 00:25:52,650 --> 00:25:55,349 PADDI VINT: podcast. Thank you very much for your time. 659 00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:57,359 JOANNE MCKENNA: Thanks very much. It's been great speaking 660 00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:58,439 JOANNE MCKENNA: to you both. 661 00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:59,999 CORMAC NOLAN: Thank you very much Paddi. Thank you, 662 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:00,899 CORMAC NOLAN: Joanne. 663 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:03,449 PADDI VINT: If anybody would like further information or 664 00:26:03,450 --> 00:26:06,029 PADDI VINT: has concerns for a child, they're very welcome 665 00:26:06,030 --> 00:26:08,969 PADDI VINT: to contact the NSPCC Helpline on 666 00:26:08,970 --> 00:26:09,970 PADDI VINT: 0808 800 5000, or 667 00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:13,854 PADDI VINT: drop us an email to help@NSPCC.org.uk. 668 00:26:21,010 --> 00:26:23,379 OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning 669 00:26:23,380 --> 00:26:24,669 OUTRO: Podcast. 670 00:26:24,670 --> 00:26:27,309 OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content 671 00:26:27,310 --> 00:26:29,949 OUTRO: was up-to-date, but the world of safeguarding and 672 00:26:29,950 --> 00:26:31,102 OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing. 673 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,389 OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current 674 00:26:34,390 --> 00:26:37,089 OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training, 675 00:26:37,090 --> 00:26:40,089 OUTRO: information or resources, please visit 676 00:26:40,090 --> 00:26:42,407 OUTRO: our website for professionals at 677 00:26:42,408 --> 00:26:43,408 OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.