INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection

INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work

INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young people

INTRO: safe.

PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.

PRODUCER: This episode features an interview with Anne

PRODUCER: Longfield, the Executive Chair of the Centre for

PRODUCER: Young Lives and Children's Commissioner for

PRODUCER: England from 2015 to 2021.

PRODUCER: Earlier this year Anne published 'Young Lives,

PRODUCER: Big Ambitions', a new book which examines the

PRODUCER: problems facing vulnerable young people in the

PRODUCER: UK. You can find out more about the book on

PRODUCER: the NSPCC Library online catalogue.

PRODUCER: In this interview, recorded in June 2024, Anne

PRODUCER: shares her thoughts on what needs to be done to

PRODUCER: improve the safeguarding support available to

PRODUCER: teenagers across the UK, including implementing

PRODUCER: a more joined-up approach to recognising the

PRODUCER: risks that teenagers face and providing better

PRODUCER: access to early intervention and youth work

PRODUCER: services.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: My name's Wesley Powley-Baker and I

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: work at the NSPCC as a Safeguarding

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Manager in the Safeguarding Unit, and

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: today we're really pleased to have

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Anne Longfield for today's podcast.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: In the main, we're going to be

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: talking about Anne's recent book that

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: she's just published called 'Young

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Lives, Big Ambitions'.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Just a bit of background on Anne:

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Anne was the Children's Commissioner

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: for England from 2015 to 2021

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: and is now chair of the Commission on

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Young Lives. She spent the last three

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: decades working to improve the lives

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: of the most vulnerable children and

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: earlier this year, as I've said, she's

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: published a book, 'Young Lives, Big

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Ambitions', which explores how

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: vulnerable children and teens are

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: being let down by the system that

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: exists to protect them, presenting

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: solutions to give every young person

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: the best chance to succeed in life.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: So, Anne, thank you for joining us.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Pleasure. Thank you so much.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: The first question I'd like to ask,

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: and I'm sure our audience would be

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: really interested in this, is what

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: was the journey that led to the

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: writing of this book for you?

ANNE LONGFIELD: Well, quite a long one.

ANNE LONGFIELD: You've just mentioned three decades there,

ANNE LONGFIELD: and there's even a little bit more than

ANNE LONGFIELD: that. But, essentially, over the years,

ANNE LONGFIELD: all of my work has been about improving

ANNE LONGFIELD: outcomes, improving the law, improving

ANNE LONGFIELD: our offerings, if you like, as a country,

ANNE LONGFIELD: as a society for children, but especially

ANNE LONGFIELD: vulnerable children.

ANNE LONGFIELD: From the early days of my work in

ANNE LONGFIELD: areas of London and then in other areas

ANNE LONGFIELD: around the country, it was very clear to

ANNE LONGFIELD: me that there was a significant number of

ANNE LONGFIELD: children who had a mountain to climb as

ANNE LONGFIELD: they grew up compared to other children,

ANNE LONGFIELD: and that so often they were

ANNE LONGFIELD: left without help.

ANNE LONGFIELD: They were marginalised

ANNE LONGFIELD: until the point where the problem became

ANNE LONGFIELD: a crisis and intervention was needed.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And so often their life chances and

ANNE LONGFIELD: expectations were massively diminished as

ANNE LONGFIELD: a result. And on the other side of it,

ANNE LONGFIELD: which feeds my optimistic elements

ANNE LONGFIELD: — which hopefully are in the main

ANNE LONGFIELD: — I was very aware that you could do

ANNE LONGFIELD: things about this. I worked in the very

ANNE LONGFIELD: early days with families and parents

ANNE LONGFIELD: in parts of south west London where

ANNE LONGFIELD: proper ongoing support was

ANNE LONGFIELD: available, and I was part of

ANNE LONGFIELD: of delivering that.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And with that kind of expectation that

ANNE LONGFIELD: support was there, families were really

ANNE LONGFIELD: able to achieve huge things and

ANNE LONGFIELD: plan for their future with their kids and

ANNE LONGFIELD: have that reliance or that

ANNE LONGFIELD: confidence that support was there when

ANNE LONGFIELD: they needed it. So I've always known

ANNE LONGFIELD: the power of having support

ANNE LONGFIELD: that you could turn to and you could rely

ANNE LONGFIELD: on and trusted people that could do that.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And I guess that has influenced me

ANNE LONGFIELD: throughout.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And to get to the point of the

ANNE LONGFIELD: specific topic of this book, all of my

ANNE LONGFIELD: work as Children's Commissioner built on

ANNE LONGFIELD: that. One of the things that you have as

ANNE LONGFIELD: your powers as Children's Commissioner is

ANNE LONGFIELD: that you're able to gather data from any

ANNE LONGFIELD: public body regarding children —not

ANNE LONGFIELD: personal data, but administrative data

ANNE LONGFIELD: that you can then analyse and you can go

ANNE LONGFIELD: behind the headlines, go behind the

ANNE LONGFIELD: findings and find out what's really going

ANNE LONGFIELD: on. And I spent those six years as

ANNE LONGFIELD: Children's Commissioner really

ANNE LONGFIELD: establishing the levels of vulnerability

ANNE LONGFIELD: in this country and also the nature of

ANNE LONGFIELD: that to really attempt to get the focus

ANNE LONGFIELD: on the root causes of this and getting

ANNE LONGFIELD: ahead of the game in terms of preventing

ANNE LONGFIELD: the crises that we can all see in front

ANNE LONGFIELD: of our eyes. It was very clear to me as

ANNE LONGFIELD: Children's Commissioner, but also at the

ANNE LONGFIELD: end of my term, that actually there

ANNE LONGFIELD: was a huge paucity of research and

ANNE LONGFIELD: knowledge about vulnerability for

ANNE LONGFIELD: teenagers.

ANNE LONGFIELD: There was a collective horror

ANNE LONGFIELD: at some of the headlines that we would all

ANNE LONGFIELD: see in the newspapers or in the serious

ANNE LONGFIELD: case reviews.

ANNE LONGFIELD: But actually there wasn't the machinery or

ANNE LONGFIELD: policy space or policy coordination within

ANNE LONGFIELD: government to spend

ANNE LONGFIELD: the time needed to understand why these

ANNE LONGFIELD: things happened and how they could be

ANNE LONGFIELD: prevented.

ANNE LONGFIELD: So I spent the

ANNE LONGFIELD: following two years, having founded

ANNE LONGFIELD: a Commission on Young Lives to look at

ANNE LONGFIELD: these things, understanding that and

ANNE LONGFIELD: bringing forward what I hoped

ANNE LONGFIELD: would be not only practical and doable

ANNE LONGFIELD: solutions, but also eye-catching solutions

ANNE LONGFIELD: that would really put forward

ANNE LONGFIELD: a plan nationally and locally and put a

ANNE LONGFIELD: policy emphasis and highlight onto that,

ANNE LONGFIELD: which I hope that has done.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And that work really led to a lot

ANNE LONGFIELD: of the thinking about the book and

ANNE LONGFIELD: bringing all that together into a

ANNE LONGFIELD: narrative about what goes wrong and

ANNE LONGFIELD: also what we could achieve as a country

ANNE LONGFIELD: if we were more ambitious for our

ANNE LONGFIELD: vulnerable children and our teens.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Thank you. That was a great

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: introduction and context.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Moving on a bit to that first

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: chapter, which I thought was really,

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: really powerful. You know, these are

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: young lives and particularly the

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: story around Jayden and Jacob

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: and I have a bit of a question around

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: that. So in the beginning of that

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: chapter in the book, you talk about

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: the failure to find "reachable

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: moments" when children could be

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: better supported, or in the worst

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: instances when children's lives could

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: have been saved. So what do you think

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: those... I mean, you've begun to talk

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: about that in that introduction, but

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: what do you think about what those

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: reachable moments look like?

ANNE LONGFIELD: I think what is very evident is that

ANNE LONGFIELD: we haven't recognised

ANNE LONGFIELD: the risks that face teenagers enough

ANNE LONGFIELD: in the past.

ANNE LONGFIELD: That recognition hasn't gained its place

ANNE LONGFIELD: in many of the statutory services that

ANNE LONGFIELD: need to be much more aware of this and

ANNE LONGFIELD: need to be both alert but also clear of

ANNE LONGFIELD: their role.

ANNE LONGFIELD: That's not to say there aren't brilliant

ANNE LONGFIELD: people doing good things, but whether you

ANNE LONGFIELD: look in children's social care, whether

ANNE LONGFIELD: you look in the police, whether you look

ANNE LONGFIELD: in some of the work around schools,

ANNE LONGFIELD: there hasn't been that joined-up approach

ANNE LONGFIELD: to being able to understand what the

ANNE LONGFIELD: symptoms of vulnerability are, nor indeed

ANNE LONGFIELD: when interventions are needed.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And, as a result, children have often

ANNE LONGFIELD: fallen through the gaps.

ANNE LONGFIELD: I mean, the serious cases reviews speak

ANNE LONGFIELD: for themselves in terms of the horror of

ANNE LONGFIELD: how some of those tragedies happen.

ANNE LONGFIELD: But also, I am told constantly

ANNE LONGFIELD: by professionals working with young people

ANNE LONGFIELD: that building relationships with young

ANNE LONGFIELD: people who are often living lives of huge

ANNE LONGFIELD: risk, there's not enough time spent on

ANNE LONGFIELD: those relationships.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And at the end of the day, it's the

ANNE LONGFIELD: relationships that matter.

ANNE LONGFIELD: It's the relationships that young people

ANNE LONGFIELD: need to be able to have that confidence

ANNE LONGFIELD: there's someone to turn to.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Be able to get advice, able to get

ANNE LONGFIELD: support. And so often

ANNE LONGFIELD: those young people have missed out and

ANNE LONGFIELD: faced huge escalating risks sometimes

ANNE LONGFIELD: as a result.

ANNE LONGFIELD: So those moments: well, you know, there

ANNE LONGFIELD: are some clear indicators.

ANNE LONGFIELD: You don't have to put it in professional

ANNE LONGFIELD: jargon; just when things are going wrong.

ANNE LONGFIELD: As a parent, you know when things aren't

ANNE LONGFIELD: going right in terms of your child's life.

ANNE LONGFIELD: When they're struggling at school, when

ANNE LONGFIELD: they don't want to go to school, when

ANNE LONGFIELD: there's behaviour problems at school, when

ANNE LONGFIELD: the school may be instituting

ANNE LONGFIELD: suspensions or exclusions, when children

ANNE LONGFIELD: are spending long periods of time with

ANNE LONGFIELD: groups of friends you don't know or

ANNE LONGFIELD: changing groups of friends.

ANNE LONGFIELD: All of those points are points that we

ANNE LONGFIELD: should be alert to young people's

ANNE LONGFIELD: welfare and wellbeing.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And as parents and as professionals, we

ANNE LONGFIELD: need to be alert to that. So if a school

ANNE LONGFIELD: has got a child who isn't

ANNE LONGFIELD: attending school often, a child who

ANNE LONGFIELD: is struggling with certain situations, a

ANNE LONGFIELD: child who is at risk of being excluded,

ANNE LONGFIELD: then that's a huge red flag for

ANNE LONGFIELD: 'something is going on'.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And what I think we need to see is,

ANNE LONGFIELD: at that point, a response that has —

ANNE LONGFIELD: be it a pastoral team or preventative

ANNE LONGFIELD: work with children at risk and families

ANNE LONGFIELD: from social care — to be able to start

ANNE LONGFIELD: wrapping around support and being able to

ANNE LONGFIELD: help get out of that situation.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And, of course, the most glaringly obvious

ANNE LONGFIELD: point where there is one of those moments

ANNE LONGFIELD: is when children end up in A&E.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Often with boys, they will end up in A&E

ANNE LONGFIELD: where there's been

ANNE LONGFIELD: some kind of serious violence or knife

ANNE LONGFIELD: attack and they've ended up injured.

ANNE LONGFIELD: For girls, less likely to be in that

ANNE LONGFIELD: situation, but equally they

ANNE LONGFIELD: may go into A&E and talk about mental

ANNE LONGFIELD: health or sexual health.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Those are very obvious points where no one

ANNE LONGFIELD: can ignore the fact something is going

ANNE LONGFIELD: very wrong here.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And one of the things that we've talked

ANNE LONGFIELD: about in the book is about, at that point,

ANNE LONGFIELD: to be able to have youth workers, girls

ANNE LONGFIELD: workers, others there who can

ANNE LONGFIELD: work intensively alongside those

ANNE LONGFIELD: young people to be able to help them

ANNE LONGFIELD: overcome whatever challenges, get out of

ANNE LONGFIELD: whatever situation they're in.

ANNE LONGFIELD: But it shouldn't take to the point where

ANNE LONGFIELD: you've got a child being brought into an

ANNE LONGFIELD: A&E covered in blood for us to know that

ANNE LONGFIELD: something isn't going right.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And it shouldn't be that the only point

ANNE LONGFIELD: our services can respond to the extent

ANNE LONGFIELD: needed is if it's actually a matter of

ANNE LONGFIELD: life or death. We need to come way

ANNE LONGFIELD: upstream in understanding where those

ANNE LONGFIELD: children have vulnerabilities at home —

ANNE LONGFIELD: before school, during primary, and as

ANNE LONGFIELD: they move inro secondary school — and also

ANNE LONGFIELD: be able to see the signs and respond to

ANNE LONGFIELD: those signs when things are going well.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And all of those moments where children

ANNE LONGFIELD: are showing the signs of vulnerability, be

ANNE LONGFIELD: that in school, be that not attending

ANNE LONGFIELD: school, all of those points are where

ANNE LONGFIELD: I would like to see there's enough

ANNE LONGFIELD: relationships there to be able to bring

ANNE LONGFIELD: that ring of protection around them.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Now, youth workers in particular

ANNE LONGFIELD: are often the ones who are able to

ANNE LONGFIELD: deliver on that magic.

ANNE LONGFIELD: You know, when children might not

ANNE LONGFIELD: feel able to, or that

ANNE LONGFIELD: they want to, confide in schools or

ANNE LONGFIELD: confide in parents or do any of the things

ANNE LONGFIELD: that those people want them to do,

ANNE LONGFIELD: actually, it's youth workers who will be

ANNE LONGFIELD: able to be the ones that find that

ANNE LONGFIELD: connection and work with them to be able

ANNE LONGFIELD: to develop their trust and relationship

ANNE LONGFIELD: and also support them and guide them to a

ANNE LONGFIELD: different place. Which is why in the book

ANNE LONGFIELD: I put such an emphasis on youth workers

ANNE LONGFIELD: being part of that solution.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Just picking up on that theme a bit

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: more about relationships, raising

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: awareness so we understand those

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: signs and of where to intervene.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: But also you talked about — which I

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: love — that idea of youth workers

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: delivering that magic.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: And the next question I was going to

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: ask was about support at the right

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: time and the right place to properly

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: prevent abuse.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: And I had a question about what that

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: meant to properly invest in early

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: years, but maybe I could widen that a

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: bit more to what does that properly

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: mean to invest...

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: maybe you want to say something about youth workers

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: there?

ANNE LONGFIELD: Yeah, I would say...

ANNE LONGFIELD: I mean, the book is essentially about

ANNE LONGFIELD: teenagers. It's about how we

ANNE LONGFIELD: provide better support for

ANNE LONGFIELD: teenagers who are struggling

ANNE LONGFIELD: and how we have high ambitions for their

ANNE LONGFIELD: lives for them.

ANNE LONGFIELD: But, you know, at the heart of that

ANNE LONGFIELD: is a recognition that actually we

ANNE LONGFIELD: need to start with that support from the

ANNE LONGFIELD: absolute earliest weeks of life.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Now, I spent a good slice

ANNE LONGFIELD: of my life in the past arguing for and

ANNE LONGFIELD: then helping develop and deliver Sure

ANNE LONGFIELD: Start children centres.

ANNE LONGFIELD: That for me was a vital

ANNE LONGFIELD: part of the infrastructure that would help

ANNE LONGFIELD: those families who needed a bit more help

ANNE LONGFIELD: to be able to have the back-up,

ANNE LONGFIELD: the advice, the relationships with support

ANNE LONGFIELD: near to home to be able to

ANNE LONGFIELD: bring up their children in the way they

ANNE LONGFIELD: wanted to.

ANNE LONGFIELD: My hopes and ambitions are that

ANNE LONGFIELD: we have a rebuilt infrastructure

ANNE LONGFIELD: for children and families from birth

ANNE LONGFIELD: onwards in any new government.

ANNE LONGFIELD: I don't care much about what it's called,

ANNE LONGFIELD: but it is about place-based support like

ANNE LONGFIELD: children centres. So helping kids

ANNE LONGFIELD: get to the point where they can go into

ANNE LONGFIELD: school with a bounce is really vital, and

ANNE LONGFIELD: we know that the kids I'm talking about in

ANNE LONGFIELD: this book are the ones that are largely

ANNE LONGFIELD: going to start school behind their peers

ANNE LONGFIELD: and stay behind their peers throughout.

ANNE LONGFIELD: So enabling that not to happen, ensuring

ANNE LONGFIELD: that they get the best support in terms of

ANNE LONGFIELD: speech and language, in terms of emotional

ANNE LONGFIELD: development, in terms of helping them

ANNE LONGFIELD: get ahead at that moment of starting

ANNE LONGFIELD: school is really important.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Primary schools that have a strong

ANNE LONGFIELD: focus on nurture, that work with families,

ANNE LONGFIELD: that offer family support, that work with

ANNE LONGFIELD: other services in the local community,

ANNE LONGFIELD: including public services, to be able to

ANNE LONGFIELD: offer a joined-up hub, if you like, of

ANNE LONGFIELD: support any children and family centres

ANNE LONGFIELD: or hubs of the future do need to work

ANNE LONGFIELD: throughout primary school years

ANNE LONGFIELD: and then into the teenage years too.

ANNE LONGFIELD: I think we underuse the great

ANNE LONGFIELD: assets that a school has in

ANNE LONGFIELD: terms of its resource within the community

ANNE LONGFIELD: after school, during school holidays.

ANNE LONGFIELD: We're at a moment in time where breakfast

ANNE LONGFIELD: clubs are back on the agenda and being

ANNE LONGFIELD: discussed. I think these are all

ANNE LONGFIELD: essential support platforms that can help

ANNE LONGFIELD: families and help children in terms of

ANNE LONGFIELD: reducing poverty, in terms of offering

ANNE LONGFIELD: additional support, in terms of delivering

ANNE LONGFIELD: really important things like nutritious

ANNE LONGFIELD: meals and access to activities;

ANNE LONGFIELD: and then following that through in terms

ANNE LONGFIELD: of secondary schools, and increasing these

ANNE LONGFIELD: children move into their secondary

ANNE LONGFIELD: school, that importance of youth workers

ANNE LONGFIELD: as one of those delivery agents to be

ANNE LONGFIELD: around children's lives.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Again, huge decline in the number of

ANNE LONGFIELD: places for young people to be in their

ANNE LONGFIELD: community over the last decade plus.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Huge decrease in number of youth centres

ANNE LONGFIELD: in the number of secondary schools who are

ANNE LONGFIELD: operating after school, during school

ANNE LONGFIELD: holidays and the like.

ANNE LONGFIELD: But if we want to reintroduce

ANNE LONGFIELD: a system of support that can be a system

ANNE LONGFIELD: that responds to need at the point needed,

ANNE LONGFIELD: then those are all elements that I think

ANNE LONGFIELD: are required as part of that build-back.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Just in terms of the strengthening of

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: the workforce and, you know,

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: particularly thinking from my

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: perspective as a qualified social

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: worker. What do you think we could do

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: to ensure that, in terms of

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: building that much more resilient

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: and purposeful support from birth to

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: adulthood, what do you think we could

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: do, what would help to strengthen

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: that workforce? Because they're often

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: doing the most critical work and

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: they're not very well paid, the tools

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: might not be... you know, I just

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: wondered what your thoughts might be

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: on that.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Absolutely. So I think at the moment, as

ANNE LONGFIELD: you say, we've got a lot of very skilled

ANNE LONGFIELD: people who would delivering really vital

ANNE LONGFIELD: work that can be make or break for

ANNE LONGFIELD: children and their families.

ANNE LONGFIELD: But often they're doing it

ANNE LONGFIELD: without the recognition of the system

ANNE LONGFIELD: properly or without the

ANNE LONGFIELD: professional kind of wrapping that you

ANNE LONGFIELD: might expect for something that important,

ANNE LONGFIELD: or indeed the salary within that.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And there isn't a clear pathway

ANNE LONGFIELD: in. There isn't a clear packaging,

ANNE LONGFIELD: if you like, of the range of workforce

ANNE LONGFIELD: roles that are working in this

ANNE LONGFIELD: area. That sounds a little bit convoluted,

ANNE LONGFIELD: but as an example: so when you look at

ANNE LONGFIELD: young people, when you've got some people

ANNE LONGFIELD: who are doing brilliant work in pastoral

ANNE LONGFIELD: care in schools, you've got some that are

ANNE LONGFIELD: working in the community as youth workers

ANNE LONGFIELD: or indeed in schools, and that's great.

ANNE LONGFIELD: You've got some people who are working as

ANNE LONGFIELD: part of youth offending teams, doing vital

ANNE LONGFIELD: work. You've got some people who are

ANNE LONGFIELD: doing the kind of supportive work around

ANNE LONGFIELD: families, again, that is really important.

ANNE LONGFIELD: What you don't have is any way

ANNE LONGFIELD: of bringing all of those interventions

ANNE LONGFIELD: together into a recognised

ANNE LONGFIELD: group of professions or professionals

ANNE LONGFIELD: that can have the

ANNE LONGFIELD: recognition and status needed about the

ANNE LONGFIELD: importance of that work.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Now, I think, if you went back 10 or

ANNE LONGFIELD: 15 years, there were pathways towards

ANNE LONGFIELD: that: a more coherent workforce strategy

ANNE LONGFIELD: for those working with children; a more

ANNE LONGFIELD: developed pathway and climbing frame

ANNE LONGFIELD: between different elements of the

ANNE LONGFIELD: professions; a more established

ANNE LONGFIELD: understanding that actually pastoral care

ANNE LONGFIELD: and support in a slightly less

ANNE LONGFIELD: formal way than maybe social work had

ANNE LONGFIELD: huge value and a connection into that.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Those, I think, have fallen away somewhat

ANNE LONGFIELD: in the stresses and strains and challenges

ANNE LONGFIELD: of those services being under huge

ANNE LONGFIELD: pressure themselves, and a rising

ANNE LONGFIELD: threshold for support often driven

ANNE LONGFIELD: by cost challenges and the like.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And those have obviously driven a lot of

ANNE LONGFIELD: those services towards the high end of

ANNE LONGFIELD: acute response and acute need and crisis.

ANNE LONGFIELD: I think it is established and everyone

ANNE LONGFIELD: knows that if we're really going to get to

ANNE LONGFIELD: the point where we're able to prevent some

ANNE LONGFIELD: of these things developing, we are going

ANNE LONGFIELD: to have to work earlier in the process.

ANNE LONGFIELD: We are going to have to provide that

ANNE LONGFIELD: broader early intervention preventative

ANNE LONGFIELD: work that gets alongside kids and gets

ANNE LONGFIELD: alongside families again.

ANNE LONGFIELD: That will need some more investment in

ANNE LONGFIELD: that area. But we all know that investment

ANNE LONGFIELD: in that area is just a fraction of the

ANNE LONGFIELD: cost of what crises costs in the end.

ANNE LONGFIELD: So there's work to be done there.

ANNE LONGFIELD: There's a job to be done there.

ANNE LONGFIELD: One of the things that I've been involved

ANNE LONGFIELD: in over recent months is discussions

ANNE LONGFIELD: about how we can build a pathway

ANNE LONGFIELD: to qualification for a group of youth

ANNE LONGFIELD: workers that potentially are working

ANNE LONGFIELD: alongside social workers in quite a

ANNE LONGFIELD: diagnostic way.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Bring in, of course, all the youth work

ANNE LONGFIELD: principles and approaches to that work

ANNE LONGFIELD: with young people, but also do it in a way

ANNE LONGFIELD: that can be part of and complement that

ANNE LONGFIELD: wider social care reach and approach.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And I think there's an area there

ANNE LONGFIELD: that we need to build and concentrate on

ANNE LONGFIELD: in coming months and years.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: I've picked up about intervening in,

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: you know, much earlier upstream and

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: strengthening the workforce.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: I was just curious — because it also

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: took me back to the book — you give

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: so many great examples of where

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: there is positive work going on.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: So I don't want to give the impression that

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: it's not.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: So I just wondered, was there

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: anything in particular that stood

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: out, a particular project or...?

ANNE LONGFIELD: Yeah, I guess my starting point in all

ANNE LONGFIELD: this is that it doesn't have to be like

ANNE LONGFIELD: this.

ANNE LONGFIELD: There are fantastic example where either

ANNE LONGFIELD: brilliant individuals or great projects

ANNE LONGFIELD: are managing to show that it is possible

ANNE LONGFIELD: to deliver things in a different way.

ANNE LONGFIELD: But often, especially with local

ANNE LONGFIELD: organisations, you know, they're living on

ANNE LONGFIELD: short-term funding, they're living on not

ANNE LONGFIELD: enough funding.

ANNE LONGFIELD: It's relying on a small team

ANNE LONGFIELD: or one individual that's making all that

ANNE LONGFIELD: difference, there's no way the capacity to

ANNE LONGFIELD: make this mainstream and make this normal.

ANNE LONGFIELD: So my hope is that in

ANNE LONGFIELD: the future we notice that sort of thing

ANNE LONGFIELD: when it's not happening, rather than we

ANNE LONGFIELD: notice it when it is happening, because

ANNE LONGFIELD: hopefully it becomes part of the way

ANNE LONGFIELD: we do things. But some of the inspiration,

ANNE LONGFIELD: well, I mean thinking about schools:

ANNE LONGFIELD: I talk in the book a lot about the

ANNE LONGFIELD: challenge to the education system to be

ANNE LONGFIELD: inclusive, to work very hard to

ANNE LONGFIELD: keep children in school, to support

ANNE LONGFIELD: young people when there are signs that

ANNE LONGFIELD: they might be at risk of exclusion.

ANNE LONGFIELD: There are some great examples of schools.

ANNE LONGFIELD: There's a school in South London

ANNE LONGFIELD: next to the Old Kent Road — it's is a primary

ANNE LONGFIELD: school actually — called Surrey Square,

ANNE LONGFIELD: that has food banks, that has

ANNE LONGFIELD: clothes banks, that has really developed

ANNE LONGFIELD: work with parents.

ANNE LONGFIELD: There's been a family worker there for a

ANNE LONGFIELD: long time. They do deep work

ANNE LONGFIELD: to understand the needs of children and

ANNE LONGFIELD: families in the area.

ANNE LONGFIELD: They even go along to the local council

ANNE LONGFIELD: and the housing department with families

ANNE LONGFIELD: to help them argue their case for

ANNE LONGFIELD: better housing or some housing

ANNE LONGFIELD: in some awful cases.

ANNE LONGFIELD: You walk into that school, you know it's

ANNE LONGFIELD: about the community. You know it's about

ANNE LONGFIELD: them sticking by that community and doing

ANNE LONGFIELD: everything they can as an anchor

ANNE LONGFIELD: organisation in the community.

ANNE LONGFIELD: A great example... Well, there's some

ANNE LONGFIELD: fantastic examples of work going on in

ANNE LONGFIELD: A&E, in some of the most awful

ANNE LONGFIELD: situations. Redthread's work with girls,

ANNE LONGFIELD: really inspiring work in some A&Es, again

ANNE LONGFIELD: where they build relationships with

ANNE LONGFIELD: young people over time and really

ANNE LONGFIELD: help support those young people to a

ANNE LONGFIELD: different place.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Football Beyond Borders, working with

ANNE LONGFIELD: children in schools — young people in

ANNE LONGFIELD: schools at risk of exclusion.

ANNE LONGFIELD: 97% success rate of keeping them in

ANNE LONGFIELD: schools when they do that.

ANNE LONGFIELD: You look around the country, all over

ANNE LONGFIELD: there are individual projects and schools

ANNE LONGFIELD: doing fantastic things.

ANNE LONGFIELD: But every one of those is working

ANNE LONGFIELD: probably against all odds because

ANNE LONGFIELD: they're working without the support or

ANNE LONGFIELD: recognition they need.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Imagine— I come away from every one of

ANNE LONGFIELD: those just saying, 'imagine if we have

ANNE LONGFIELD: this everywhere'. And it is within the

ANNE LONGFIELD: range of possibilities to have those kind

ANNE LONGFIELD: of approaches and those things everywhere.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Hence, the book makes the case for why we

ANNE LONGFIELD: should.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Thank you. I could see, I mean, the audience

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: won't see this, but I can see how much

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: that lit you up describing those

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: initiatives.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: That's such great work that does take

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: place under the most difficult and

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: pressing of circumstances.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Let me just move on a bit more.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: One of the things that that struck me

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: when reading the book was that a lot

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: about what you talk about refers to

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: boys, and particularly boys from

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: minoritised communities.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Just curious to know whether that was

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: a conscious decision or borne out by

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: the research process that you

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: undertook to write the book?

ANNE LONGFIELD: I think the answer to that is both.

ANNE LONGFIELD: We knew from the evidence that already

ANNE LONGFIELD: existed. You look at any of the evidence,

ANNE LONGFIELD: and the huge disproportionality

ANNE LONGFIELD: of involvement of especially

ANNE LONGFIELD: Black boys in so many of the aspects that

ANNE LONGFIELD: we were talking about is just very clear

ANNE LONGFIELD: to see. We'd also taken great attention of

ANNE LONGFIELD: David Lammy's work around

ANNE LONGFIELD: disproportionality in the criminal justice

ANNE LONGFIELD: system. So many messages there that we

ANNE LONGFIELD: were very, very aware of.

ANNE LONGFIELD: But again, you don't

ANNE LONGFIELD: have to look for long at the statistics

ANNE LONGFIELD: that you find out or the conversations you

ANNE LONGFIELD: have to know that

ANNE LONGFIELD: this is something which is in plain sight.

ANNE LONGFIELD: There is huge disproportionality here

ANNE LONGFIELD: which leads you to then ask, well, at what

ANNE LONGFIELD: point do we then recognise

ANNE LONGFIELD: and understand that the systems we have

ANNE LONGFIELD: aren't working for these kids?

ANNE LONGFIELD: Often they're working against them.

ANNE LONGFIELD: And why aren't the signs — whether you

ANNE LONGFIELD: wanted to call it racial bias

ANNE LONGFIELD: or whatever within the system — why aren't

ANNE LONGFIELD: we more alert to this and why aren't we

ANNE LONGFIELD: doing something about this?

ANNE LONGFIELD: So if you look at children in care,

ANNE LONGFIELD: if you look at children who are being

ANNE LONGFIELD: excluded from school, if you look at

ANNE LONGFIELD: children in YOIs (Young Offender Institutions), if

ANNE LONGFIELD: you look at young people who are

ANNE LONGFIELD: part of the wider justice system, you

ANNE LONGFIELD: can see there's an enormous

ANNE LONGFIELD: disproportionality of boys in

ANNE LONGFIELD: the system and Black boys as well.

ANNE LONGFIELD: So that's a major theme throughout

ANNE LONGFIELD: the book and one that we believe, and I

ANNE LONGFIELD: believe, needs huge attention.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: We're nearly at the end of our time.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: But just to conclude, if you could do

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: three things to improve the lot for

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: children, what would you do and why?

ANNE LONGFIELD: Well, I mean, the big thing

ANNE LONGFIELD: is really to

ANNE LONGFIELD: persuade our society, our government,

ANNE LONGFIELD: that actually, as a country,

ANNE LONGFIELD: we have choices that we can make

ANNE LONGFIELD: about how we value children.

ANNE LONGFIELD: If you look at some Scandinavian

ANNE LONGFIELD: countries, decades ago they decided that

ANNE LONGFIELD: children were an important part of our

ANNE LONGFIELD: population, that if we helped children

ANNE LONGFIELD: thrive, then actually we stand the chance

ANNE LONGFIELD: of helping our society thrive, which

ANNE LONGFIELD: has, of course, benefits not only for

ANNE LONGFIELD: those children, but in terms of social

ANNE LONGFIELD: issues and in terms of the economy,

ANNE LONGFIELD: because we all want an economy that's

ANNE LONGFIELD: going to be active and productive and all

ANNE LONGFIELD: the rest of it.

ANNE LONGFIELD: We haven't almost dared to go there.

ANNE LONGFIELD: That feels far too interventionist.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Well, I think, during

ANNE LONGFIELD: the pandemic, our support systems for

ANNE LONGFIELD: children were given a good test and I

ANNE LONGFIELD: don't think they fared very well.

ANNE LONGFIELD: So I think there's a moment

ANNE LONGFIELD: here where we can look to recommit

ANNE LONGFIELD: ourselves to kids in a way that says

ANNE LONGFIELD: as a nation, we think they're important.

ANNE LONGFIELD: We need to put them first. Next to that is

ANNE LONGFIELD: that when you do that, you think

ANNE LONGFIELD: about children when you're thinking about

ANNE LONGFIELD: your neighbourhood; the space that's

ANNE LONGFIELD: taken up for children or given to

ANNE LONGFIELD: children; the facilities that are there

ANNE LONGFIELD: that are safe for children; the way we

ANNE LONGFIELD: design our homes, especially social

ANNE LONGFIELD: housing; the way that we design our parks,

ANNE LONGFIELD: the way that we design our roads or

ANNE LONGFIELD: non-roads, our public space, essentially.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Imagine if we designed our area, our

ANNE LONGFIELD: planning for public space in a way that

ANNE LONGFIELD: was child-friendly.

ANNE LONGFIELD: I would love us to consider

ANNE LONGFIELD: and put high on the list — and require

ANNE LONGFIELD: even — children's needs to be built into

ANNE LONGFIELD: all of the way that we design our country

ANNE LONGFIELD: and the way it's established.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Let's put forward places where children

ANNE LONGFIELD: can safely play, be with each other,

ANNE LONGFIELD: be children, enjoy childhood safely.

ANNE LONGFIELD: The third is really to have

ANNE LONGFIELD: an overriding commitment with the engine

ANNE LONGFIELD: of government behind it to give all

ANNE LONGFIELD: our kids the best chance possible and be

ANNE LONGFIELD: ambitious for all our kids for

ANNE LONGFIELD: a positive childhood and a positive

ANNE LONGFIELD: scenario in terms of of our adult life.

ANNE LONGFIELD: We know that childhood and experience

ANNE LONGFIELD: of childhood sticks with you for life,

ANNE LONGFIELD: good or bad.

ANNE LONGFIELD: We have choices about the way we help

ANNE LONGFIELD: children thrive as children and help

ANNE LONGFIELD: them get that best start into life.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: That's fantastic. It's fantastic.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: And I just love that idea, that sense

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: of, in a way, quite revolutionary

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: perspective and ambition that we have

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: for children which has come through

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: there. And I love that idea about the

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: design and the lens; let's look at

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: the way we live through that

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: perspective.

ANNE LONGFIELD: It's about being ambitious.

ANNE LONGFIELD: It's about, you know, valuing young lives,

ANNE LONGFIELD: but also being ambitious for what we could

ANNE LONGFIELD: do for those children, but also for what

ANNE LONGFIELD: we want for our country. Why can't our

ANNE LONGFIELD: country be the best place to grow up?

ANNE LONGFIELD: We could make it so, and obviously, in my

ANNE LONGFIELD: view, we should.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: What a great place to stop.

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: I'd just like to thank you so much

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: for for talking about 'Young Lives,

WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Big Ambitions'.

ANNE LONGFIELD: Thanks very much.

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