INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection
INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection
INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work
INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young people
INTRO: safe.
PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.
PRODUCER: This episode features an interview with Anne
PRODUCER: Longfield, the Executive Chair of the Centre for
PRODUCER: Young Lives and Children's Commissioner for
PRODUCER: England from 2015 to 2021.
PRODUCER: Earlier this year Anne published 'Young Lives,
PRODUCER: Big Ambitions', a new book which examines the
PRODUCER: problems facing vulnerable young people in the
PRODUCER: UK. You can find out more about the book on
PRODUCER: the NSPCC Library online catalogue.
PRODUCER: In this interview, recorded in June 2024, Anne
PRODUCER: shares her thoughts on what needs to be done to
PRODUCER: improve the safeguarding support available to
PRODUCER: teenagers across the UK, including implementing
PRODUCER: a more joined-up approach to recognising the
PRODUCER: risks that teenagers face and providing better
PRODUCER: access to early intervention and youth work
PRODUCER: services.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: My name's Wesley Powley-Baker and I
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: work at the NSPCC as a Safeguarding
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Manager in the Safeguarding Unit, and
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: today we're really pleased to have
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Anne Longfield for today's podcast.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: In the main, we're going to be
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: talking about Anne's recent book that
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: she's just published called 'Young
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Lives, Big Ambitions'.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Just a bit of background on Anne:
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Anne was the Children's Commissioner
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: for England from 2015 to 2021
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: and is now chair of the Commission on
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Young Lives. She spent the last three
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: decades working to improve the lives
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: of the most vulnerable children and
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: earlier this year, as I've said, she's
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: published a book, 'Young Lives, Big
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Ambitions', which explores how
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: vulnerable children and teens are
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: being let down by the system that
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: exists to protect them, presenting
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: solutions to give every young person
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: the best chance to succeed in life.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: So, Anne, thank you for joining us.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Pleasure. Thank you so much.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: The first question I'd like to ask,
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: and I'm sure our audience would be
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: really interested in this, is what
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: was the journey that led to the
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: writing of this book for you?
ANNE LONGFIELD: Well, quite a long one.
ANNE LONGFIELD: You've just mentioned three decades there,
ANNE LONGFIELD: and there's even a little bit more than
ANNE LONGFIELD: that. But, essentially, over the years,
ANNE LONGFIELD: all of my work has been about improving
ANNE LONGFIELD: outcomes, improving the law, improving
ANNE LONGFIELD: our offerings, if you like, as a country,
ANNE LONGFIELD: as a society for children, but especially
ANNE LONGFIELD: vulnerable children.
ANNE LONGFIELD: From the early days of my work in
ANNE LONGFIELD: areas of London and then in other areas
ANNE LONGFIELD: around the country, it was very clear to
ANNE LONGFIELD: me that there was a significant number of
ANNE LONGFIELD: children who had a mountain to climb as
ANNE LONGFIELD: they grew up compared to other children,
ANNE LONGFIELD: and that so often they were
ANNE LONGFIELD: left without help.
ANNE LONGFIELD: They were marginalised
ANNE LONGFIELD: until the point where the problem became
ANNE LONGFIELD: a crisis and intervention was needed.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And so often their life chances and
ANNE LONGFIELD: expectations were massively diminished as
ANNE LONGFIELD: a result. And on the other side of it,
ANNE LONGFIELD: which feeds my optimistic elements
ANNE LONGFIELD: — which hopefully are in the main
ANNE LONGFIELD: — I was very aware that you could do
ANNE LONGFIELD: things about this. I worked in the very
ANNE LONGFIELD: early days with families and parents
ANNE LONGFIELD: in parts of south west London where
ANNE LONGFIELD: proper ongoing support was
ANNE LONGFIELD: available, and I was part of
ANNE LONGFIELD: of delivering that.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And with that kind of expectation that
ANNE LONGFIELD: support was there, families were really
ANNE LONGFIELD: able to achieve huge things and
ANNE LONGFIELD: plan for their future with their kids and
ANNE LONGFIELD: have that reliance or that
ANNE LONGFIELD: confidence that support was there when
ANNE LONGFIELD: they needed it. So I've always known
ANNE LONGFIELD: the power of having support
ANNE LONGFIELD: that you could turn to and you could rely
ANNE LONGFIELD: on and trusted people that could do that.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And I guess that has influenced me
ANNE LONGFIELD: throughout.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And to get to the point of the
ANNE LONGFIELD: specific topic of this book, all of my
ANNE LONGFIELD: work as Children's Commissioner built on
ANNE LONGFIELD: that. One of the things that you have as
ANNE LONGFIELD: your powers as Children's Commissioner is
ANNE LONGFIELD: that you're able to gather data from any
ANNE LONGFIELD: public body regarding children —not
ANNE LONGFIELD: personal data, but administrative data
ANNE LONGFIELD: that you can then analyse and you can go
ANNE LONGFIELD: behind the headlines, go behind the
ANNE LONGFIELD: findings and find out what's really going
ANNE LONGFIELD: on. And I spent those six years as
ANNE LONGFIELD: Children's Commissioner really
ANNE LONGFIELD: establishing the levels of vulnerability
ANNE LONGFIELD: in this country and also the nature of
ANNE LONGFIELD: that to really attempt to get the focus
ANNE LONGFIELD: on the root causes of this and getting
ANNE LONGFIELD: ahead of the game in terms of preventing
ANNE LONGFIELD: the crises that we can all see in front
ANNE LONGFIELD: of our eyes. It was very clear to me as
ANNE LONGFIELD: Children's Commissioner, but also at the
ANNE LONGFIELD: end of my term, that actually there
ANNE LONGFIELD: was a huge paucity of research and
ANNE LONGFIELD: knowledge about vulnerability for
ANNE LONGFIELD: teenagers.
ANNE LONGFIELD: There was a collective horror
ANNE LONGFIELD: at some of the headlines that we would all
ANNE LONGFIELD: see in the newspapers or in the serious
ANNE LONGFIELD: case reviews.
ANNE LONGFIELD: But actually there wasn't the machinery or
ANNE LONGFIELD: policy space or policy coordination within
ANNE LONGFIELD: government to spend
ANNE LONGFIELD: the time needed to understand why these
ANNE LONGFIELD: things happened and how they could be
ANNE LONGFIELD: prevented.
ANNE LONGFIELD: So I spent the
ANNE LONGFIELD: following two years, having founded
ANNE LONGFIELD: a Commission on Young Lives to look at
ANNE LONGFIELD: these things, understanding that and
ANNE LONGFIELD: bringing forward what I hoped
ANNE LONGFIELD: would be not only practical and doable
ANNE LONGFIELD: solutions, but also eye-catching solutions
ANNE LONGFIELD: that would really put forward
ANNE LONGFIELD: a plan nationally and locally and put a
ANNE LONGFIELD: policy emphasis and highlight onto that,
ANNE LONGFIELD: which I hope that has done.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And that work really led to a lot
ANNE LONGFIELD: of the thinking about the book and
ANNE LONGFIELD: bringing all that together into a
ANNE LONGFIELD: narrative about what goes wrong and
ANNE LONGFIELD: also what we could achieve as a country
ANNE LONGFIELD: if we were more ambitious for our
ANNE LONGFIELD: vulnerable children and our teens.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Thank you. That was a great
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: introduction and context.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Moving on a bit to that first
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: chapter, which I thought was really,
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: really powerful. You know, these are
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: young lives and particularly the
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: story around Jayden and Jacob
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: and I have a bit of a question around
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: that. So in the beginning of that
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: chapter in the book, you talk about
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: the failure to find "reachable
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: moments" when children could be
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: better supported, or in the worst
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: instances when children's lives could
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: have been saved. So what do you think
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: those... I mean, you've begun to talk
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: about that in that introduction, but
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: what do you think about what those
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: reachable moments look like?
ANNE LONGFIELD: I think what is very evident is that
ANNE LONGFIELD: we haven't recognised
ANNE LONGFIELD: the risks that face teenagers enough
ANNE LONGFIELD: in the past.
ANNE LONGFIELD: That recognition hasn't gained its place
ANNE LONGFIELD: in many of the statutory services that
ANNE LONGFIELD: need to be much more aware of this and
ANNE LONGFIELD: need to be both alert but also clear of
ANNE LONGFIELD: their role.
ANNE LONGFIELD: That's not to say there aren't brilliant
ANNE LONGFIELD: people doing good things, but whether you
ANNE LONGFIELD: look in children's social care, whether
ANNE LONGFIELD: you look in the police, whether you look
ANNE LONGFIELD: in some of the work around schools,
ANNE LONGFIELD: there hasn't been that joined-up approach
ANNE LONGFIELD: to being able to understand what the
ANNE LONGFIELD: symptoms of vulnerability are, nor indeed
ANNE LONGFIELD: when interventions are needed.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And, as a result, children have often
ANNE LONGFIELD: fallen through the gaps.
ANNE LONGFIELD: I mean, the serious cases reviews speak
ANNE LONGFIELD: for themselves in terms of the horror of
ANNE LONGFIELD: how some of those tragedies happen.
ANNE LONGFIELD: But also, I am told constantly
ANNE LONGFIELD: by professionals working with young people
ANNE LONGFIELD: that building relationships with young
ANNE LONGFIELD: people who are often living lives of huge
ANNE LONGFIELD: risk, there's not enough time spent on
ANNE LONGFIELD: those relationships.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And at the end of the day, it's the
ANNE LONGFIELD: relationships that matter.
ANNE LONGFIELD: It's the relationships that young people
ANNE LONGFIELD: need to be able to have that confidence
ANNE LONGFIELD: there's someone to turn to.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Be able to get advice, able to get
ANNE LONGFIELD: support. And so often
ANNE LONGFIELD: those young people have missed out and
ANNE LONGFIELD: faced huge escalating risks sometimes
ANNE LONGFIELD: as a result.
ANNE LONGFIELD: So those moments: well, you know, there
ANNE LONGFIELD: are some clear indicators.
ANNE LONGFIELD: You don't have to put it in professional
ANNE LONGFIELD: jargon; just when things are going wrong.
ANNE LONGFIELD: As a parent, you know when things aren't
ANNE LONGFIELD: going right in terms of your child's life.
ANNE LONGFIELD: When they're struggling at school, when
ANNE LONGFIELD: they don't want to go to school, when
ANNE LONGFIELD: there's behaviour problems at school, when
ANNE LONGFIELD: the school may be instituting
ANNE LONGFIELD: suspensions or exclusions, when children
ANNE LONGFIELD: are spending long periods of time with
ANNE LONGFIELD: groups of friends you don't know or
ANNE LONGFIELD: changing groups of friends.
ANNE LONGFIELD: All of those points are points that we
ANNE LONGFIELD: should be alert to young people's
ANNE LONGFIELD: welfare and wellbeing.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And as parents and as professionals, we
ANNE LONGFIELD: need to be alert to that. So if a school
ANNE LONGFIELD: has got a child who isn't
ANNE LONGFIELD: attending school often, a child who
ANNE LONGFIELD: is struggling with certain situations, a
ANNE LONGFIELD: child who is at risk of being excluded,
ANNE LONGFIELD: then that's a huge red flag for
ANNE LONGFIELD: 'something is going on'.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And what I think we need to see is,
ANNE LONGFIELD: at that point, a response that has —
ANNE LONGFIELD: be it a pastoral team or preventative
ANNE LONGFIELD: work with children at risk and families
ANNE LONGFIELD: from social care — to be able to start
ANNE LONGFIELD: wrapping around support and being able to
ANNE LONGFIELD: help get out of that situation.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And, of course, the most glaringly obvious
ANNE LONGFIELD: point where there is one of those moments
ANNE LONGFIELD: is when children end up in A&E.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Often with boys, they will end up in A&E
ANNE LONGFIELD: where there's been
ANNE LONGFIELD: some kind of serious violence or knife
ANNE LONGFIELD: attack and they've ended up injured.
ANNE LONGFIELD: For girls, less likely to be in that
ANNE LONGFIELD: situation, but equally they
ANNE LONGFIELD: may go into A&E and talk about mental
ANNE LONGFIELD: health or sexual health.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Those are very obvious points where no one
ANNE LONGFIELD: can ignore the fact something is going
ANNE LONGFIELD: very wrong here.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And one of the things that we've talked
ANNE LONGFIELD: about in the book is about, at that point,
ANNE LONGFIELD: to be able to have youth workers, girls
ANNE LONGFIELD: workers, others there who can
ANNE LONGFIELD: work intensively alongside those
ANNE LONGFIELD: young people to be able to help them
ANNE LONGFIELD: overcome whatever challenges, get out of
ANNE LONGFIELD: whatever situation they're in.
ANNE LONGFIELD: But it shouldn't take to the point where
ANNE LONGFIELD: you've got a child being brought into an
ANNE LONGFIELD: A&E covered in blood for us to know that
ANNE LONGFIELD: something isn't going right.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And it shouldn't be that the only point
ANNE LONGFIELD: our services can respond to the extent
ANNE LONGFIELD: needed is if it's actually a matter of
ANNE LONGFIELD: life or death. We need to come way
ANNE LONGFIELD: upstream in understanding where those
ANNE LONGFIELD: children have vulnerabilities at home —
ANNE LONGFIELD: before school, during primary, and as
ANNE LONGFIELD: they move inro secondary school — and also
ANNE LONGFIELD: be able to see the signs and respond to
ANNE LONGFIELD: those signs when things are going well.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And all of those moments where children
ANNE LONGFIELD: are showing the signs of vulnerability, be
ANNE LONGFIELD: that in school, be that not attending
ANNE LONGFIELD: school, all of those points are where
ANNE LONGFIELD: I would like to see there's enough
ANNE LONGFIELD: relationships there to be able to bring
ANNE LONGFIELD: that ring of protection around them.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Now, youth workers in particular
ANNE LONGFIELD: are often the ones who are able to
ANNE LONGFIELD: deliver on that magic.
ANNE LONGFIELD: You know, when children might not
ANNE LONGFIELD: feel able to, or that
ANNE LONGFIELD: they want to, confide in schools or
ANNE LONGFIELD: confide in parents or do any of the things
ANNE LONGFIELD: that those people want them to do,
ANNE LONGFIELD: actually, it's youth workers who will be
ANNE LONGFIELD: able to be the ones that find that
ANNE LONGFIELD: connection and work with them to be able
ANNE LONGFIELD: to develop their trust and relationship
ANNE LONGFIELD: and also support them and guide them to a
ANNE LONGFIELD: different place. Which is why in the book
ANNE LONGFIELD: I put such an emphasis on youth workers
ANNE LONGFIELD: being part of that solution.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Just picking up on that theme a bit
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: more about relationships, raising
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: awareness so we understand those
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: signs and of where to intervene.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: But also you talked about — which I
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: love — that idea of youth workers
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: delivering that magic.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: And the next question I was going to
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: ask was about support at the right
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: time and the right place to properly
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: prevent abuse.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: And I had a question about what that
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: meant to properly invest in early
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: years, but maybe I could widen that a
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: bit more to what does that properly
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: mean to invest...
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: maybe you want to say something about youth workers
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: there?
ANNE LONGFIELD: Yeah, I would say...
ANNE LONGFIELD: I mean, the book is essentially about
ANNE LONGFIELD: teenagers. It's about how we
ANNE LONGFIELD: provide better support for
ANNE LONGFIELD: teenagers who are struggling
ANNE LONGFIELD: and how we have high ambitions for their
ANNE LONGFIELD: lives for them.
ANNE LONGFIELD: But, you know, at the heart of that
ANNE LONGFIELD: is a recognition that actually we
ANNE LONGFIELD: need to start with that support from the
ANNE LONGFIELD: absolute earliest weeks of life.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Now, I spent a good slice
ANNE LONGFIELD: of my life in the past arguing for and
ANNE LONGFIELD: then helping develop and deliver Sure
ANNE LONGFIELD: Start children centres.
ANNE LONGFIELD: That for me was a vital
ANNE LONGFIELD: part of the infrastructure that would help
ANNE LONGFIELD: those families who needed a bit more help
ANNE LONGFIELD: to be able to have the back-up,
ANNE LONGFIELD: the advice, the relationships with support
ANNE LONGFIELD: near to home to be able to
ANNE LONGFIELD: bring up their children in the way they
ANNE LONGFIELD: wanted to.
ANNE LONGFIELD: My hopes and ambitions are that
ANNE LONGFIELD: we have a rebuilt infrastructure
ANNE LONGFIELD: for children and families from birth
ANNE LONGFIELD: onwards in any new government.
ANNE LONGFIELD: I don't care much about what it's called,
ANNE LONGFIELD: but it is about place-based support like
ANNE LONGFIELD: children centres. So helping kids
ANNE LONGFIELD: get to the point where they can go into
ANNE LONGFIELD: school with a bounce is really vital, and
ANNE LONGFIELD: we know that the kids I'm talking about in
ANNE LONGFIELD: this book are the ones that are largely
ANNE LONGFIELD: going to start school behind their peers
ANNE LONGFIELD: and stay behind their peers throughout.
ANNE LONGFIELD: So enabling that not to happen, ensuring
ANNE LONGFIELD: that they get the best support in terms of
ANNE LONGFIELD: speech and language, in terms of emotional
ANNE LONGFIELD: development, in terms of helping them
ANNE LONGFIELD: get ahead at that moment of starting
ANNE LONGFIELD: school is really important.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Primary schools that have a strong
ANNE LONGFIELD: focus on nurture, that work with families,
ANNE LONGFIELD: that offer family support, that work with
ANNE LONGFIELD: other services in the local community,
ANNE LONGFIELD: including public services, to be able to
ANNE LONGFIELD: offer a joined-up hub, if you like, of
ANNE LONGFIELD: support any children and family centres
ANNE LONGFIELD: or hubs of the future do need to work
ANNE LONGFIELD: throughout primary school years
ANNE LONGFIELD: and then into the teenage years too.
ANNE LONGFIELD: I think we underuse the great
ANNE LONGFIELD: assets that a school has in
ANNE LONGFIELD: terms of its resource within the community
ANNE LONGFIELD: after school, during school holidays.
ANNE LONGFIELD: We're at a moment in time where breakfast
ANNE LONGFIELD: clubs are back on the agenda and being
ANNE LONGFIELD: discussed. I think these are all
ANNE LONGFIELD: essential support platforms that can help
ANNE LONGFIELD: families and help children in terms of
ANNE LONGFIELD: reducing poverty, in terms of offering
ANNE LONGFIELD: additional support, in terms of delivering
ANNE LONGFIELD: really important things like nutritious
ANNE LONGFIELD: meals and access to activities;
ANNE LONGFIELD: and then following that through in terms
ANNE LONGFIELD: of secondary schools, and increasing these
ANNE LONGFIELD: children move into their secondary
ANNE LONGFIELD: school, that importance of youth workers
ANNE LONGFIELD: as one of those delivery agents to be
ANNE LONGFIELD: around children's lives.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Again, huge decline in the number of
ANNE LONGFIELD: places for young people to be in their
ANNE LONGFIELD: community over the last decade plus.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Huge decrease in number of youth centres
ANNE LONGFIELD: in the number of secondary schools who are
ANNE LONGFIELD: operating after school, during school
ANNE LONGFIELD: holidays and the like.
ANNE LONGFIELD: But if we want to reintroduce
ANNE LONGFIELD: a system of support that can be a system
ANNE LONGFIELD: that responds to need at the point needed,
ANNE LONGFIELD: then those are all elements that I think
ANNE LONGFIELD: are required as part of that build-back.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Just in terms of the strengthening of
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: the workforce and, you know,
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: particularly thinking from my
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: perspective as a qualified social
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: worker. What do you think we could do
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: to ensure that, in terms of
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: building that much more resilient
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: and purposeful support from birth to
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: adulthood, what do you think we could
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: do, what would help to strengthen
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: that workforce? Because they're often
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: doing the most critical work and
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: they're not very well paid, the tools
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: might not be... you know, I just
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: wondered what your thoughts might be
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: on that.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Absolutely. So I think at the moment, as
ANNE LONGFIELD: you say, we've got a lot of very skilled
ANNE LONGFIELD: people who would delivering really vital
ANNE LONGFIELD: work that can be make or break for
ANNE LONGFIELD: children and their families.
ANNE LONGFIELD: But often they're doing it
ANNE LONGFIELD: without the recognition of the system
ANNE LONGFIELD: properly or without the
ANNE LONGFIELD: professional kind of wrapping that you
ANNE LONGFIELD: might expect for something that important,
ANNE LONGFIELD: or indeed the salary within that.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And there isn't a clear pathway
ANNE LONGFIELD: in. There isn't a clear packaging,
ANNE LONGFIELD: if you like, of the range of workforce
ANNE LONGFIELD: roles that are working in this
ANNE LONGFIELD: area. That sounds a little bit convoluted,
ANNE LONGFIELD: but as an example: so when you look at
ANNE LONGFIELD: young people, when you've got some people
ANNE LONGFIELD: who are doing brilliant work in pastoral
ANNE LONGFIELD: care in schools, you've got some that are
ANNE LONGFIELD: working in the community as youth workers
ANNE LONGFIELD: or indeed in schools, and that's great.
ANNE LONGFIELD: You've got some people who are working as
ANNE LONGFIELD: part of youth offending teams, doing vital
ANNE LONGFIELD: work. You've got some people who are
ANNE LONGFIELD: doing the kind of supportive work around
ANNE LONGFIELD: families, again, that is really important.
ANNE LONGFIELD: What you don't have is any way
ANNE LONGFIELD: of bringing all of those interventions
ANNE LONGFIELD: together into a recognised
ANNE LONGFIELD: group of professions or professionals
ANNE LONGFIELD: that can have the
ANNE LONGFIELD: recognition and status needed about the
ANNE LONGFIELD: importance of that work.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Now, I think, if you went back 10 or
ANNE LONGFIELD: 15 years, there were pathways towards
ANNE LONGFIELD: that: a more coherent workforce strategy
ANNE LONGFIELD: for those working with children; a more
ANNE LONGFIELD: developed pathway and climbing frame
ANNE LONGFIELD: between different elements of the
ANNE LONGFIELD: professions; a more established
ANNE LONGFIELD: understanding that actually pastoral care
ANNE LONGFIELD: and support in a slightly less
ANNE LONGFIELD: formal way than maybe social work had
ANNE LONGFIELD: huge value and a connection into that.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Those, I think, have fallen away somewhat
ANNE LONGFIELD: in the stresses and strains and challenges
ANNE LONGFIELD: of those services being under huge
ANNE LONGFIELD: pressure themselves, and a rising
ANNE LONGFIELD: threshold for support often driven
ANNE LONGFIELD: by cost challenges and the like.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And those have obviously driven a lot of
ANNE LONGFIELD: those services towards the high end of
ANNE LONGFIELD: acute response and acute need and crisis.
ANNE LONGFIELD: I think it is established and everyone
ANNE LONGFIELD: knows that if we're really going to get to
ANNE LONGFIELD: the point where we're able to prevent some
ANNE LONGFIELD: of these things developing, we are going
ANNE LONGFIELD: to have to work earlier in the process.
ANNE LONGFIELD: We are going to have to provide that
ANNE LONGFIELD: broader early intervention preventative
ANNE LONGFIELD: work that gets alongside kids and gets
ANNE LONGFIELD: alongside families again.
ANNE LONGFIELD: That will need some more investment in
ANNE LONGFIELD: that area. But we all know that investment
ANNE LONGFIELD: in that area is just a fraction of the
ANNE LONGFIELD: cost of what crises costs in the end.
ANNE LONGFIELD: So there's work to be done there.
ANNE LONGFIELD: There's a job to be done there.
ANNE LONGFIELD: One of the things that I've been involved
ANNE LONGFIELD: in over recent months is discussions
ANNE LONGFIELD: about how we can build a pathway
ANNE LONGFIELD: to qualification for a group of youth
ANNE LONGFIELD: workers that potentially are working
ANNE LONGFIELD: alongside social workers in quite a
ANNE LONGFIELD: diagnostic way.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Bring in, of course, all the youth work
ANNE LONGFIELD: principles and approaches to that work
ANNE LONGFIELD: with young people, but also do it in a way
ANNE LONGFIELD: that can be part of and complement that
ANNE LONGFIELD: wider social care reach and approach.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And I think there's an area there
ANNE LONGFIELD: that we need to build and concentrate on
ANNE LONGFIELD: in coming months and years.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: I've picked up about intervening in,
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: you know, much earlier upstream and
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: strengthening the workforce.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: I was just curious — because it also
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: took me back to the book — you give
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: so many great examples of where
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: there is positive work going on.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: So I don't want to give the impression that
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: it's not.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: So I just wondered, was there
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: anything in particular that stood
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: out, a particular project or...?
ANNE LONGFIELD: Yeah, I guess my starting point in all
ANNE LONGFIELD: this is that it doesn't have to be like
ANNE LONGFIELD: this.
ANNE LONGFIELD: There are fantastic example where either
ANNE LONGFIELD: brilliant individuals or great projects
ANNE LONGFIELD: are managing to show that it is possible
ANNE LONGFIELD: to deliver things in a different way.
ANNE LONGFIELD: But often, especially with local
ANNE LONGFIELD: organisations, you know, they're living on
ANNE LONGFIELD: short-term funding, they're living on not
ANNE LONGFIELD: enough funding.
ANNE LONGFIELD: It's relying on a small team
ANNE LONGFIELD: or one individual that's making all that
ANNE LONGFIELD: difference, there's no way the capacity to
ANNE LONGFIELD: make this mainstream and make this normal.
ANNE LONGFIELD: So my hope is that in
ANNE LONGFIELD: the future we notice that sort of thing
ANNE LONGFIELD: when it's not happening, rather than we
ANNE LONGFIELD: notice it when it is happening, because
ANNE LONGFIELD: hopefully it becomes part of the way
ANNE LONGFIELD: we do things. But some of the inspiration,
ANNE LONGFIELD: well, I mean thinking about schools:
ANNE LONGFIELD: I talk in the book a lot about the
ANNE LONGFIELD: challenge to the education system to be
ANNE LONGFIELD: inclusive, to work very hard to
ANNE LONGFIELD: keep children in school, to support
ANNE LONGFIELD: young people when there are signs that
ANNE LONGFIELD: they might be at risk of exclusion.
ANNE LONGFIELD: There are some great examples of schools.
ANNE LONGFIELD: There's a school in South London
ANNE LONGFIELD: next to the Old Kent Road — it's is a primary
ANNE LONGFIELD: school actually — called Surrey Square,
ANNE LONGFIELD: that has food banks, that has
ANNE LONGFIELD: clothes banks, that has really developed
ANNE LONGFIELD: work with parents.
ANNE LONGFIELD: There's been a family worker there for a
ANNE LONGFIELD: long time. They do deep work
ANNE LONGFIELD: to understand the needs of children and
ANNE LONGFIELD: families in the area.
ANNE LONGFIELD: They even go along to the local council
ANNE LONGFIELD: and the housing department with families
ANNE LONGFIELD: to help them argue their case for
ANNE LONGFIELD: better housing or some housing
ANNE LONGFIELD: in some awful cases.
ANNE LONGFIELD: You walk into that school, you know it's
ANNE LONGFIELD: about the community. You know it's about
ANNE LONGFIELD: them sticking by that community and doing
ANNE LONGFIELD: everything they can as an anchor
ANNE LONGFIELD: organisation in the community.
ANNE LONGFIELD: A great example... Well, there's some
ANNE LONGFIELD: fantastic examples of work going on in
ANNE LONGFIELD: A&E, in some of the most awful
ANNE LONGFIELD: situations. Redthread's work with girls,
ANNE LONGFIELD: really inspiring work in some A&Es, again
ANNE LONGFIELD: where they build relationships with
ANNE LONGFIELD: young people over time and really
ANNE LONGFIELD: help support those young people to a
ANNE LONGFIELD: different place.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Football Beyond Borders, working with
ANNE LONGFIELD: children in schools — young people in
ANNE LONGFIELD: schools at risk of exclusion.
ANNE LONGFIELD: 97% success rate of keeping them in
ANNE LONGFIELD: schools when they do that.
ANNE LONGFIELD: You look around the country, all over
ANNE LONGFIELD: there are individual projects and schools
ANNE LONGFIELD: doing fantastic things.
ANNE LONGFIELD: But every one of those is working
ANNE LONGFIELD: probably against all odds because
ANNE LONGFIELD: they're working without the support or
ANNE LONGFIELD: recognition they need.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Imagine— I come away from every one of
ANNE LONGFIELD: those just saying, 'imagine if we have
ANNE LONGFIELD: this everywhere'. And it is within the
ANNE LONGFIELD: range of possibilities to have those kind
ANNE LONGFIELD: of approaches and those things everywhere.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Hence, the book makes the case for why we
ANNE LONGFIELD: should.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Thank you. I could see, I mean, the audience
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: won't see this, but I can see how much
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: that lit you up describing those
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: initiatives.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: That's such great work that does take
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: place under the most difficult and
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: pressing of circumstances.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Let me just move on a bit more.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: One of the things that that struck me
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: when reading the book was that a lot
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: about what you talk about refers to
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: boys, and particularly boys from
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: minoritised communities.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Just curious to know whether that was
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: a conscious decision or borne out by
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: the research process that you
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: undertook to write the book?
ANNE LONGFIELD: I think the answer to that is both.
ANNE LONGFIELD: We knew from the evidence that already
ANNE LONGFIELD: existed. You look at any of the evidence,
ANNE LONGFIELD: and the huge disproportionality
ANNE LONGFIELD: of involvement of especially
ANNE LONGFIELD: Black boys in so many of the aspects that
ANNE LONGFIELD: we were talking about is just very clear
ANNE LONGFIELD: to see. We'd also taken great attention of
ANNE LONGFIELD: David Lammy's work around
ANNE LONGFIELD: disproportionality in the criminal justice
ANNE LONGFIELD: system. So many messages there that we
ANNE LONGFIELD: were very, very aware of.
ANNE LONGFIELD: But again, you don't
ANNE LONGFIELD: have to look for long at the statistics
ANNE LONGFIELD: that you find out or the conversations you
ANNE LONGFIELD: have to know that
ANNE LONGFIELD: this is something which is in plain sight.
ANNE LONGFIELD: There is huge disproportionality here
ANNE LONGFIELD: which leads you to then ask, well, at what
ANNE LONGFIELD: point do we then recognise
ANNE LONGFIELD: and understand that the systems we have
ANNE LONGFIELD: aren't working for these kids?
ANNE LONGFIELD: Often they're working against them.
ANNE LONGFIELD: And why aren't the signs — whether you
ANNE LONGFIELD: wanted to call it racial bias
ANNE LONGFIELD: or whatever within the system — why aren't
ANNE LONGFIELD: we more alert to this and why aren't we
ANNE LONGFIELD: doing something about this?
ANNE LONGFIELD: So if you look at children in care,
ANNE LONGFIELD: if you look at children who are being
ANNE LONGFIELD: excluded from school, if you look at
ANNE LONGFIELD: children in YOIs (Young Offender Institutions), if
ANNE LONGFIELD: you look at young people who are
ANNE LONGFIELD: part of the wider justice system, you
ANNE LONGFIELD: can see there's an enormous
ANNE LONGFIELD: disproportionality of boys in
ANNE LONGFIELD: the system and Black boys as well.
ANNE LONGFIELD: So that's a major theme throughout
ANNE LONGFIELD: the book and one that we believe, and I
ANNE LONGFIELD: believe, needs huge attention.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: We're nearly at the end of our time.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: But just to conclude, if you could do
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: three things to improve the lot for
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: children, what would you do and why?
ANNE LONGFIELD: Well, I mean, the big thing
ANNE LONGFIELD: is really to
ANNE LONGFIELD: persuade our society, our government,
ANNE LONGFIELD: that actually, as a country,
ANNE LONGFIELD: we have choices that we can make
ANNE LONGFIELD: about how we value children.
ANNE LONGFIELD: If you look at some Scandinavian
ANNE LONGFIELD: countries, decades ago they decided that
ANNE LONGFIELD: children were an important part of our
ANNE LONGFIELD: population, that if we helped children
ANNE LONGFIELD: thrive, then actually we stand the chance
ANNE LONGFIELD: of helping our society thrive, which
ANNE LONGFIELD: has, of course, benefits not only for
ANNE LONGFIELD: those children, but in terms of social
ANNE LONGFIELD: issues and in terms of the economy,
ANNE LONGFIELD: because we all want an economy that's
ANNE LONGFIELD: going to be active and productive and all
ANNE LONGFIELD: the rest of it.
ANNE LONGFIELD: We haven't almost dared to go there.
ANNE LONGFIELD: That feels far too interventionist.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Well, I think, during
ANNE LONGFIELD: the pandemic, our support systems for
ANNE LONGFIELD: children were given a good test and I
ANNE LONGFIELD: don't think they fared very well.
ANNE LONGFIELD: So I think there's a moment
ANNE LONGFIELD: here where we can look to recommit
ANNE LONGFIELD: ourselves to kids in a way that says
ANNE LONGFIELD: as a nation, we think they're important.
ANNE LONGFIELD: We need to put them first. Next to that is
ANNE LONGFIELD: that when you do that, you think
ANNE LONGFIELD: about children when you're thinking about
ANNE LONGFIELD: your neighbourhood; the space that's
ANNE LONGFIELD: taken up for children or given to
ANNE LONGFIELD: children; the facilities that are there
ANNE LONGFIELD: that are safe for children; the way we
ANNE LONGFIELD: design our homes, especially social
ANNE LONGFIELD: housing; the way that we design our parks,
ANNE LONGFIELD: the way that we design our roads or
ANNE LONGFIELD: non-roads, our public space, essentially.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Imagine if we designed our area, our
ANNE LONGFIELD: planning for public space in a way that
ANNE LONGFIELD: was child-friendly.
ANNE LONGFIELD: I would love us to consider
ANNE LONGFIELD: and put high on the list — and require
ANNE LONGFIELD: even — children's needs to be built into
ANNE LONGFIELD: all of the way that we design our country
ANNE LONGFIELD: and the way it's established.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Let's put forward places where children
ANNE LONGFIELD: can safely play, be with each other,
ANNE LONGFIELD: be children, enjoy childhood safely.
ANNE LONGFIELD: The third is really to have
ANNE LONGFIELD: an overriding commitment with the engine
ANNE LONGFIELD: of government behind it to give all
ANNE LONGFIELD: our kids the best chance possible and be
ANNE LONGFIELD: ambitious for all our kids for
ANNE LONGFIELD: a positive childhood and a positive
ANNE LONGFIELD: scenario in terms of of our adult life.
ANNE LONGFIELD: We know that childhood and experience
ANNE LONGFIELD: of childhood sticks with you for life,
ANNE LONGFIELD: good or bad.
ANNE LONGFIELD: We have choices about the way we help
ANNE LONGFIELD: children thrive as children and help
ANNE LONGFIELD: them get that best start into life.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: That's fantastic. It's fantastic.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: And I just love that idea, that sense
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: of, in a way, quite revolutionary
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: perspective and ambition that we have
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: for children which has come through
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: there. And I love that idea about the
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: design and the lens; let's look at
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: the way we live through that
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: perspective.
ANNE LONGFIELD: It's about being ambitious.
ANNE LONGFIELD: It's about, you know, valuing young lives,
ANNE LONGFIELD: but also being ambitious for what we could
ANNE LONGFIELD: do for those children, but also for what
ANNE LONGFIELD: we want for our country. Why can't our
ANNE LONGFIELD: country be the best place to grow up?
ANNE LONGFIELD: We could make it so, and obviously, in my
ANNE LONGFIELD: view, we should.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: What a great place to stop.
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: I'd just like to thank you so much
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: for for talking about 'Young Lives,
WESLEY POWLEY-BAKER: Big Ambitions'.
ANNE LONGFIELD: Thanks very much.
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