The Problem with Partnerships episode 6 – What is a decolonised partnership - transcript Chernor: It's based on The African principle of Ubuntu, I am, because you are, you are, because I am. # [jingle] # Raaval: Welcome to the final episode of the Problem with Partnerships, a Building Peace podcast series from Peace Direct. I’m Raaval Singh Bains, your host for this series, which has been exploring how to decolonise the system of international cooperation – that’s the humanitarian, development and peacebuilding sector. We’ve been discussing how we can all build more decolonised, equitable partnerships between local activists and international NGOs and funders in the sector, by addressing the problems holding us back – systemic racism, White Supremacy, and racialised power imbalances. Today, we’re wrapping up this series with the ultimate question: what does a decolonised partnership really look like? The individuals you’ve heard from across the series are going to share their perspective on what a decolonised partnership means to them. And you’ll hear from someone new – one of Peace Direct’s International Programmes Managers, who I’ll speak to about the lessons we’ve learned about how Peace Direct can do better, and how we’re putting those lessons into practice. We also want to hear from you – get in touch with us on social media or in the reviews and comments – tell us what a decolonised partnership means to you, using the hashtag #TransformPartnerships. Now, let’s dive in and hear from our speakers. First, I’m actually going to start with two contradictions, which capture how complex this topic is. Let’s start with Dr Véronique Barbelet, who is an independent humanitarian policy researcher and a Research Associate with the Overseas Development Institute’s Humanitarian Policy Group. Veronique: that's a difficult question. In one of the research work I'm doing at the moment, one person we interviewed, said, diversity is being invited to the party, and inclusion is feeling that you're allowed to dance. That analogy came from somebody from the Global South. And so I'm going to continue that analogy. And for me, decolonised partnerships, is when all people involved feel that they can set the date for the party, they can set the theme of the party, they can decide to come and not to come to the party, they can decide to dance and not to dance, they can decide to change your music, and they can propose new dance steps. And so for me, this is really when all people involved, feel free to propose, argue, contradict and set the agenda. And that to me, that's decolonized partnerships. Raaval: But for Jamie Hagen, founding co-director of the Centre for Gender in Politics, that feels unattainable, because there’s been so little change so far. Jamie : This is a brilliant question. And I can't wait to hear what everyone says in response to this. And I have to say, honestly, I don't know. But I do know the community of people that I want to be with as part of imagining it. And I will also say I don't think it's possible to have a decolonized partnership within UK academia. As I I'm sitting here right now, I'm not I don't think it's possible. And that's something that has been hard to have conversations about. To say, I mean, just to think about it, yes. But even to find people taking seriously, like we mentioned earlier, where do you get your funding from? And what are you doing this work for? So to me, I know, people that I can work with and have those conversations with and I think that I think it takes time, I think it takes accountability and transparency and really difficult, uncomfortable conversations. But from where I'm sitting, I have a very hard time imagining how that what how that involves an institution. And I have not seen it. And I'll just be on the record saying that because that is something that's deeply unsettling, and I feel like should be deeply unsettling to many more people. Raaval: That discomfort is really important. The fact that we’re still having this conversation after years of activism around not just decolonisation, but racism itself, is really disheartening, or unsettling as Jamie puts it. In the Transforming Partnerships guide, we identified that one of the challenges slowing the pace of change is the lack of definitions and shared understanding across the sector about what decolonisation, particularly in partnerships, actually means. Here’s Ishani Ida Cordeiro, the Advocacy & Accountability Manager at Women Enabled International, digging into that issue. Ishani: I want to start by saying one thing, which is especially important for us as Global South activists is that we need to be extremely careful of how the term decolonization is being understood. You know, because there is a lot of talk about it right now. And the problem is that, it's assumed that everybody understands it. You know, it's very much like what the term intersectional was, you know, where there was this assumption that everybody understood what it actually meant. But the deeper you dig, you realise that a lot of people don't understand it. So I think one of the first things is that we need to be careful that the term decolonization is not sort of repackaged and thrown to us, you know, and it sort of just looks pretty from the outside. But once you dig deeper, it's sort of still a very colonial language that is just used in the proper way. So just to sort of before getting into what decolonized partnerships could look like, I think it's extremely important to sort of be able to articulate what decolonisation is, and what like what decolonial partnerships would actually mean. Sort of having said that, I think, even if we choose not to use the term decolonial, even if we just say, just use the term partnerships, you know, and so I think it's irrespective of whether somebody is comfortable or not comfortable using the term decolonial, for whatever reason, you know, like, not getting into why they might not be comfortable using it or anything, any partnership needs to first and foremost, acknowledge power, and then move from there. Irrespective of the partnership, there will always be a power imbalance or a power balance, however you want to look at it, but that sort of is always going to be there. Because there's always going to be somebody who comes in with the money or somebody who comes in with certain caste and class politics, somebody who comes in with certain race politics, you know, like, all of these things are always going to be there in any partnerships. So sort of recognising that and then working from there would be the primary sort of thing to ensure a safe and sustainable partnership. You know, I think those are, if one chooses not to use decolonial, for whatever reason, I would say, at least a safe and sustainable partnership. Safe if I say to ensure that it's the partnership is also a space where one is not sort of, it's not like a top heavy agenda setting partnership. It's a partnership of equals, and sustainable because I mean, we need communities, we need partnerships, we need movements to be sustainable in the Global South, because that's where the work is happening. So I think in sort of acknowledging, recognising that power, and then moving from there and recognising that when you need to take that step forward, and when you need to take that step back, is, for me a partnership that is going to be a partnership of value, you know. And I don't mean value in, in a capitalist commodified sort of sense, but like, you know, it's going to be one wherein we can ensure that the work that we want to collectively do, you know, is happening. Raaval: I want to turn to Nicoline Nwenushi Wazeh, an activist from Cameroon and founder of Pathways for Women’s Empowerment and Development. In episode 3, Nicoline highlighted some of the key values at the heart of more equitable partnerships. Nicoline: We have seen trust, mutual understanding, respect. I think we look at it in terms of flexibility too and then we look at it in terms of a win win situation, it is a give and take. I think decolonizing the development also looks, it should also be about sharing experiences. Nobody is a teacher on this space. It's about sharing experience, sharing lived experiences. Partnerships should be horizontal. It shouldn't be like the person who is giving money is the alpha and then the person who is giving resources is the omega or the whatever. Giving in this context is not just giving money, but also giving knowledge which is also an asset. Raaval: So Nicoline reminds us that we cannot have equitable relationships without mutual understanding, trust and respect. The expertise of local experts should be valued by their partners, and those experts should also recognise their own expertise and power. Raaval: Let’s hear from Chernor Bah. Chernor recently became the Minister of Information and Civic Education in Sierra Leone. He’s also the Co-founder of Purposeful, a feminist hub for girls’ activism, rooted in Africa and working all around the world. Chernor: A decolonized partnership is not based on money. It's not based on power, resources or anything. It's based on The African principle of Ubuntu, I am, because you are, you are, because I am. So you might have the money, but you understand that this work that I have to do here to have access to water and food and to feed my kids is the work, and it's the work I'm doing for your liberation. The money that you have is money that I use, or you let me use because you understand that that money is required for your liberation as much as it is required for my liberation, and that we hold ourselves mutually in respect, and dignity. And that's is, is radical, is really wild. Because when you know of that history of plunder, of extraction at my expense and to your advantage, that this relationship that we're having frees you up just as much as he frees me. It saves you just as much as he saves me. And it makes the world better for all of us. Raaval: I really like that. Essentially, it’s a partnership of equals based on mutual liberation. Raaval: I think this leads quite nicely to a provocation, from Gunjan Veda, Executive Director at the Movement for Community Led Development. She issues a challenge to those of us in the Global North… Gunjan: Coming from India, where we don't have this Do It Yourself culture that you have here. When you need a room painted your house you call a painter, you give them a bucket of paint, and you tell them this is the amount of time you need to do this and you negotiate the arrangement. You even buy that bucket of paint because you don't trust the person. You think that if I gave him money, you either get something substandard. And it's always a he, you don't hire women. So you get something substandard, he’ll miss something, he won't get the right paint, he won't get the right shade. So you buy that and you literally put them there and say do it and if the person says, This is not right for this wall, you would be like, I know what is right, just do what you're supposed to do. If they say we're not available today, you would be like, okay, too bad. Somebody else can do it. We don't need you to do it, you’re dispensable, you are just a body that is doing that work. You have no value, your knowledge and skills don't matter. Right? Now, contrast that with an architect when you want to create your dream home, and you want the best architect in the world to do it. Right. And you go to them and you and they'll be like, sorry, we're busy. We don't have any openings for the next month and you will go like, you know what, that's how popular this person has. Everybody wants them. We will wait a year but our dream house has to be designed by them. Right? You like a bathtub and the person says no, that's not good. Do this. You will be like, they know. Why? Because you respect the knowledge. They're not indispensable. You're not gonna be like meh, we'll just get somebody else, one architect is as good as the other. No, because you recognise the value they bring to the partnership. You recognise and respect their knowledge. That is what a decolonized partnership is, right? If you truly want to be better partners, if you truly want to decolonize as an organisation, you have to recognize, truly recognise the value of a local partner, you do not treat them as interchangeable, dispensable, you know organisations or commodities. You treat them as somebody who brings an immense value and knowledge to the partnership. And then you show them that respect. If you start with that mental model, there is no way that you will be in a discriminatory relationship, but we never start from there and who benefits that bill? I think my starting point is, well, the question that you're asking me, how about you go and ask your partners that? How about you go and speak to local organisations and ask them? What do you need for us to be better partners? What can we do? You know, how can we actually truly respect you? Respect your knowledge, respect what you bring in? Right? What's stopping us from asking that question is something I never understand. True humility is to go to your partners and acknowledge we know that we haven't been fair in our partnership. We know we haven't treated you equally. And we want to change that. Raaval: …humility also in knowing where we’ve come from, the history of our sector, and how loaded our choices are. # jingle # Raaval: So what does a decolonised partnership mean for Peace Direct? Well, it is a question that we have and we continue to ask ourselves on a regular basis. Ultimately, and this is something we see as an end goal, it is a partnership that is based on values such as trust, humility, respect and importantly reciprocity. And in this kind of partnership, it is important that it actively works to dismantle the racialised power imbalances within the sector and create something that is fair and equitable for us all. To get there is a journey and it requires us to challenge and change the current attitudes and mindsets that we currently approach partnerships with. For us at Peace Direct, it’s not just an abstract idea. It’s something we’re actively trying to put into practice. To talk about this further, I’m joined by Jennifer Pobi-Browne, International Programmes Manager at Peace Direct, who over the last year or so has been instrumental in rethinking and reshaping our existing partnerships. Jennifer, welcome to the podcast. And I am interested to know, what are your reflections on what a decolonised partnership means to Peace Direct? Jennifer PB: Hi Ravaal, thank you. I think it's about really looking hard at the way that we work in partnership, and reassessing which practices are reciprocal and based in respect, trust and humility, and which are actually just the result of neocolonial attitudes towards organisations in the Global South. And then making changes based on that, and continuing throughout that to question why it is that we do what we do in the way that we do it. And keeping on making those changes. So it's an ongoing assessment and thinking of how to approach certain ways of working and unlearning the old ways of doing things. And I think at the heart of those changes are the human relationships that we have with our partners, and that is what all of our partnerships are and should be based on. Raaval: I would completely agree with this as well. And I know we've held at Peace Direct, a series of partner surveys where we ask our partners and we invite our partners to share what they think about the current state of the partnership. And I know this is largely these surveys have been largely instigated by yourself. Would you mind telling us a little bit about those surveys and how they've helped and supported Peace Direct. Jennifer PB: So I think the aim behind those surveys is to get our partners feedback on on those practices as well, and what they really think of those practices. So it's one thing us doing that assessment ourselves and being in that process of understanding the how the ways in which we work are rooted in those core values, the values of respect, trust, humility and reciprocity. But it's another thing, seeing that from the perception of our partners, and making sure that we're not seeing something differently to the way that our partners see it, because what's really important actually is how our partners perceive those practices. Raaval: These partnership surveys have not only helped us, as Peace Direct, and our partners to work and come together on a values level, but also on a practical level as well. These surveys have encouraged us to think about our own practices, and I'm aware that some of the funding that we give as well. So for example, the survey has invited us to question our method of funding. And there could be aspects in which we are giving restricted funding and which could be turned into something that's more unrestricted for some partners and with some in some funding mechanisms, and that's something that essentially has come out of a the partnership survey. So I think just building on what you say, it's helped us on a practical level, as well as a values-based level, and combining those two, the practice and the values they provide a good match to develop a moredecolonised approach to our partnerships. Jen PB: Yes, definitely. And one of the things that really came out so after our most recent survey, we also had a couple of conversations with our partners to really dig into some of the themes that had come up and invite further discussion. One of the things that came out of those conversations was this idea that partners really value, that we give them space to try new things and to be safe to fail. And I think that flexibility in funding comes into a lot of that. I mean, it's partly that human relationship of building that trust and being willing to try new things, but practically flexible funding is a huge element of that. So you know, seed funding new ideas or organizations that others aren't willing to support. Testing those innovative approaches, testing approaches to sending funds to countries where there are problems with bank de risking and sanctions where it's difficult to get money in. Giving, you know, solidarity grants, giving rapid emergency grants so that they can respond to changing events, and really rooting that funding as much as possible in trust that our partner is the one that knows best what is best for their organization and what is best for the work that they're doing. And I think that that is also the benefit of this partnerships approach that we have, where we're looking, we're looking for long term partnerships, right, with organizations whose values are aligned with ours, and whose strategies are aligned with ours, who are organizations that are looking to support local actors to build sustainable peace in their communities. And that long term partnership approach, rather than short term projectized funding means that we have that trust with our partners. We have that trust so that we know that when something is happening in their communities, they are the best place to respond to it, and they're the best placed to use that funding in the way that they know how. Raaval: Trust isn't something that's easy to build. It takes time. Jen PB: What you are just making me think is that, it takes time to build that trust and that trust itself also needs to be reciprocated, right? So it's not only that we're developing that trust in our partners, but that our partners are developing that trust in us. And that is crucially important to the way that we work, because if a partner doesn't trust us to listen to them, to respond to value what they're telling us, then we're not going to have that two way relationship that really is a partnership. If the partner doesn't trust us to value their expertise, to value their knowledge of the context, then the relationship isn't going to work. It's not going to be a decolonised and equitable partnership. So there has to be that two way approach, and that is what we try to build through so many of the processes that we have. And I'm thinking, for example, about due diligence. You know, for lots of organizations, there's this huge due diligence checklist that they have to fulfill when they're starting to work with a local partner and INGOs and donors aren't expecting those local partners to do due diligence on them, and why is that? Why is it that we're starting from that basis of needing to do all this due diligence on local organizations that we want to partner with. And so our approach, which isn't perfect, don't get me wrong, but I think is getting better, is improving is to start off as curiosity, you know, understanding where a partner is in their kind of financial processes, and offering that information back to them about us as well, so they have all the understanding about where we are, our accounts, our financial status, our financial processes. So it's a two way process, and I think starting from the beginning of the relationship by setting up this two way approach is one of the key ways to build this trust and show our partners, many of whom have been burned by relationships that they've had with other INGOs, that we're doing our best to come at this as equals, and we really want to be in an equal partnership with you. Raaval: You bring up really intriguing points here, highlighting the importance of reciprocity and the two way nature of the relationship, kind of underlining that it's a partnership, and essentially it's a relationship between either two or multiple parties on an equal footing. And you also mentioned the fact that we certainly as Peace Direct, we're trying. We're not necessarily getting everything perfect. And this is where the surveys come in to help as well, to kind of support our own understanding and our own approach, so we can keep adapting and keep evolving for the future as the conversation develops. I'm intrigued to know a little bit about where you see our partnerships moving in the future and how we can still do better? Jen PB: It's a that's a really good question, Raaval, and you know, we don't have all of the answers. No one does. If we had all of the answers, all of this would not be something that we're spending time discussing now. The system would have been fixed long ago. But I think for us, one of the key things is continuing to learn, and us learning from our partners as well as our partners learning from each other. I think one of the key roles that we can play is recognizing the wealth of knowledge and expertise and experience that exists in all of our partner organizations who work, you know, we have partners in multiple countries across the world and their contexts that are very different. Even partners within the same country can have really different contexts and at the same time, there are often commonalities, and they're often facing similar challenges. Or they might be experiencing similar successes in the way that they're working. And I think one of the key roles that we can have is bringing them together, to exchange on that, to learn from each other, and not seeing ourselves as in the centre of that. I think for too long INGOs have seen themselves as the bearer of all expertise, the people who can share their expertise with the rest of the world. And we want to take ourselves out of the centre of that. We have a lot to learn. We have so much to learn from our partners, so we are part of that learning circle. And that, I think is a key way for us to support local peacebuilders, to strengthen each other, rather than thinking that we are the ones that can strengthen them, which has so often been the discourse. I think another thing that we are trying to do is be a critical friend and ask our partners to be a critical friend to us. So I don't want to sound like a broken record, but all of these things are reciprocal, right? So we want to be that person who can ask our partners the difficult questions, challenge them to continue to grow, bring them different perspectives, give them some space to reflect on what they're doing and how they can improve. And we need that from them as well, so that we can continue to learn and grow and improve. It's important to note that, of course, when we're doing these surveys and when we're seeking this, this feedback from partners. While it's great to receive the positive feedback, what's actually helps us to grow is that constructive feedback. And one of the comments that we had in our latest partner survey, it was a partner noting that the hand that gives is always above the hand that receives. I think that's a really important comment for us to keep in mind, because we are still in a system where we're funding our partners and we're trying to encourage funders to resource local organizations and local partners directly. But progress on that is still slow. So at the moment, there is still an inherent imbalance of power between us and our partners, and we have to be aware of that. We have to be aware that we may have a different perception of our communications with them, of our practices, than our partners do, just because of the existence of this power imbalance. So when we are, for example, trying to be a critical friend by asking questions, we have to be sure that our partners don't see that as trying to impose decisions or reflections about their work, and so it's a very delicate balance, and I think it shouldn't stop us from challenging each other and asking those difficult questions and creating those spaces for learning. And at the same time, it is important that we bear it in mind that we're constantly sitting with that discomfort of this power imbalance, and that we're continuing to build that trust and those strong relationships that can mitigate the risks of that and ensuring that as far as possible, our communications are clear, that they're culturally relevant, that we're communicating where we can in the language of our partners, in a language that they are more comfortable in than us, if possible. Raaval: It's really important that you're speaking about the power imbalance and the power dynamic within the sector, and the power imbalance that is inherent with our partnerships and with our partners. And I completely agree. I think it's important that we reflect on the power dynamic within the sector and with our partners. They're two very different types of power dynamics, and we can be able to use our power and privilege in some areas and relinquish it in other areas. And I think finding the balance between the two is something that we as an organization and we as a sector can learn to do in an effective way that's more sustainable for the long term. Jen PB: We're doing what we can to balance out as much as possible that inherent power imbalance, while we're still working at the same time to change the system so that eventually that power imbalance is no longer there. So it's all of us feeding in together to challenge each other to continue to improve. Raaval: Thank you very much, Jen. I mean, just listening to you speak today, I'm kind of noticing the interdependency between the four values of humility, trust, reciprocity and respect. Their interdependence as values, and then the interdependence of the practice follows on from these values, and it really highlights the importance of kind of unity, solidarity and moving forwards and learning and growing together as one. [brief jingle interlude] Raaval Bains: Thank you for tuning in to the last episode of the series. But don’t forget – this part of our journey might be ending, but the journey itself continues. Decolonisation, and the rebuilding of this sector, is long-term, ongoing work that demands a deep commitment from all of us to do better. We all have a responsibility – whether in the Global North or the Global South – to do this work. So keep listening to activists who are challenging us all to change. But don’t just listen – take action. Keep using the tools that have been created, like the Transforming Partnerships guide, to radically reinvent your work. Keep challenging power imbalances and racist practices. Commit to building better partnerships, and shifting power. Finally, don’t be a stranger. Decolonising our own corner of the world alone is a lot harder than working together. Connect with your peers, talk about it with your friends, and get in touch – we want to hear about the changes you’re making, the challenges you’re encountering, and the hopes you have for our sector’s future. Don’t forget to share your perspective on decolonised partnerships on social media or via the comments and reviews, using the hashtag #TransformPartnerships. For now, it's been a pleasure to host you on The Problem with Partnerships. Take care.