PRODUCER: This episode discusses practitioners'

PRODUCER: experiences of working with adult

PRODUCER: victim-survivors of child sexual abuse.

PRODUCER: Whilst listening, please be mindful of your own

PRODUCER: wellbeing and prioritise taking a break if you

PRODUCER: need to.

INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child

INTRO: protection from inside and outside of the

INTRO: organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection

INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work

INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young

INTRO: people safe.

PETER WANLESS: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.

PETER WANLESS: I am Peter Wanless, I'm the Chief

PETER WANLESS: Executive of the NSPCC and also

PETER WANLESS: the Chair of the IICSA Changemakers,

PETER WANLESS: IICSA being the Independent Inquiry into

PETER WANLESS: Child Sexual Abuse.

PETER WANLESS: Now, back in the autumn of 2022,

PETER WANLESS: the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual

PETER WANLESS: Abuse produced its final report and

PETER WANLESS: recommendations. This was a culmination of

PETER WANLESS: seven years of work

PETER WANLESS: at a cost of a quarter of a £1 billion,

PETER WANLESS: and an exercise which took testimony from

PETER WANLESS: over 7,000 victims and survivors

PETER WANLESS: of child sexual abuse.

PETER WANLESS: But the way these public inquiries work,

PETER WANLESS: there isn't an automatic implementation

PETER WANLESS: mechanism associated with the

PETER WANLESS: recommendations. The recommendations go to

PETER WANLESS: the government and who knows what might

PETER WANLESS: happen next.

PETER WANLESS: So, the authors of the IICSA reports

PETER WANLESS: convened a meeting of interested,

PETER WANLESS: like-minded individuals and organisations

PETER WANLESS: to reflect on what they had discovered,

PETER WANLESS: just to pose the question 'what's going to

PETER WANLESS: happen next?' I was one of the people

PETER WANLESS: fortunate enough to be at that meeting

PETER WANLESS: and we reflected on the

PETER WANLESS: huge scale of

PETER WANLESS: change that was going to be required

PETER WANLESS: if the recommendations that IICSA had come

PETER WANLESS: up with were going to be realised.

PETER WANLESS: We all looked at one another and everyone

PETER WANLESS: looked at everyone else and thought, well,

PETER WANLESS: what are we going to do about this?

PETER WANLESS: And I thought, if not

PETER WANLESS: us, then who?

PETER WANLESS: And if not now, then when?

PETER WANLESS: And between us, we agreed that we should

PETER WANLESS: convene a collective group of

PETER WANLESS: organisations really to keep

PETER WANLESS: the IICSA recommendation flames

PETER WANLESS: alive for three really important reasons.

PETER WANLESS: The first was that there really did need

PETER WANLESS: to be a step change in the statutory

PETER WANLESS: framework within which these

PETER WANLESS: issues are considered.

PETER WANLESS: Secondly, there's all sorts of things

PETER WANLESS: which organisations could be doing to

PETER WANLESS: improve the consistency of their

PETER WANLESS: safeguarding and protection of children

PETER WANLESS: and young people at risk of child sexual

PETER WANLESS: abuse. And thirdly, we felt that in

PETER WANLESS: particular the voices and perspectives of

PETER WANLESS: all those victims and survivors who had

PETER WANLESS: given that testimony deserved

PETER WANLESS: to be kept at the forefront of the debate

PETER WANLESS: and discussion in terms of what happened

PETER WANLESS: next. So out of that

PETER WANLESS: conference, the IICSA Changemakers

PETER WANLESS: were born. I agreed to chair

PETER WANLESS: this coalition of organisations — of which

PETER WANLESS: there are now, I think from memory, 67 —

PETER WANLESS: who share those high-level objectives.

PETER WANLESS: As 67 organisations, we are

PETER WANLESS: supported by Clare Kelly,

PETER WANLESS: who has been pulling the work together

PETER WANLESS: and creating momentum and focus behind our

PETER WANLESS: efforts and activities, and Denise Pringle

PETER WANLESS: who, right from the beginning, we felt we

PETER WANLESS: needed to support the IICSA Changemakers,

PETER WANLESS: someone with really authentic

PETER WANLESS: understanding and expertise when it comes

PETER WANLESS: to adult-survivor perspectives

PETER WANLESS: on child sexual abuse.

PETER WANLESS: So there's the three of us supported by,

PETER WANLESS: as I say, these 67 organisations,

PETER WANLESS: banging the drum for what happens next,

PETER WANLESS: post the inquiry.

PETER WANLESS: I'd really like now to invite Denise to

PETER WANLESS: tell us a little bit about her involvement

PETER WANLESS: with the Changemakers and in particular

PETER WANLESS: what she's been up to, leading to a really

PETER WANLESS: powerful and important conference

PETER WANLESS: that we had with victims and survivors

PETER WANLESS: of child sexual abuse front and centre.

DENISE PRINGLE: So I am the adult-survivor participation

DENISE PRINGLE: manager for IICSA Changemakers.

DENISE PRINGLE: I joined the team almost a year ago

DENISE PRINGLE: and I came on board really to help

DENISE PRINGLE: make sure that survivor voice

DENISE PRINGLE: was prioritised and included

DENISE PRINGLE: in a really rich and genuinely

DENISE PRINGLE: diverse way. It's not something that you

DENISE PRINGLE: can just tick off and say you've done.

DENISE PRINGLE: We needed to be able to take all the

DENISE PRINGLE: learnings from the over 7,000

DENISE PRINGLE: victims and survivors that engaged with

DENISE PRINGLE: the original inquiry and then those that

DENISE PRINGLE: were engaging with Changemakers

DENISE PRINGLE: to make sure that we were creating

DENISE PRINGLE: safe, meaningful participation,

DENISE PRINGLE: which sounds very straightforward but

DENISE PRINGLE: isn't always.

DENISE PRINGLE: And that really culminated in the event

DENISE PRINGLE: that we did in September where

DENISE PRINGLE: we came together and

DENISE PRINGLE: it was a survivor-led event, which was

DENISE PRINGLE: something that we spent many months

DENISE PRINGLE: planning.

DENISE PRINGLE: It was a chance to use this two-year

DENISE PRINGLE: anniversary of IICSA finishing

DENISE PRINGLE: to come together and say, 'this is why

DENISE PRINGLE: all these issues, all these

DENISE PRINGLE: recommendations are still as important

DENISE PRINGLE: today as they were two years ago,' and

DENISE PRINGLE: trying to get momentum...

DENISE PRINGLE: to keep up the determination

DENISE PRINGLE: to get this work done.

DENISE PRINGLE: Our event was purely

DENISE PRINGLE: survivor speaking.

DENISE PRINGLE: We didn't allow any CEOs — we didn't

DENISE PRINGLE: allow Peter — to stand up and

DENISE PRINGLE: we didn't allow any policy heads or civil

DENISE PRINGLE: servants to stand up. We really wanted

DENISE PRINGLE: this to be an exercise in witnessing,

DENISE PRINGLE: listening and hearing survivors take

DENISE PRINGLE: the lead and be able to

DENISE PRINGLE: set a tone of trust and holding

DENISE PRINGLE: survivors as experts in their own rights

DENISE PRINGLE: around all of these policy points and

DENISE PRINGLE: their experiences.

DENISE PRINGLE: So, Peter, Clare; do you have any

DENISE PRINGLE: questions about the planning for the

DENISE PRINGLE: event that you want me to particularly

DENISE PRINGLE: focus on?

CLARE KELLY: I think for me, Denise, it was

CLARE KELLY: watching you do your thing as we built

CLARE KELLY: towards that event. Every day there was a

CLARE KELLY: new scheduled element that you knew

CLARE KELLY: we needed to cover. And sometimes, you know,

CLARE KELLY: from someone like myself, I was sat back

CLARE KELLY: going, 'Why do I need to do that?' And you

CLARE KELLY: question it and you don't really understand

CLARE KELLY: it until you see it play out.

CLARE KELLY: And I just wonder, in your experience, do

CLARE KELLY: people really underestimate the amount of

CLARE KELLY: time and energy it takes in the pre-planning

CLARE KELLY: as well? Because you — although we had a few

CLARE KELLY: months to do it — you were constant on it.

CLARE KELLY: I just wonder what your view was on it.

DENISE PRINGLE: A lot of the things with safeguarding and

DENISE PRINGLE: safety and risk management and

DENISE PRINGLE: participation, you're planning for

DENISE PRINGLE: situations and putting measures in place

DENISE PRINGLE: that hopefully you won't actually need or

DENISE PRINGLE: won't need to click into place, but you

DENISE PRINGLE: need to have them planned, prepped

DENISE PRINGLE: and thoroughly explored.

DENISE PRINGLE: Something that you often hear a lot with

DENISE PRINGLE: best practice guidance around

DENISE PRINGLE: participation is it's got to be

DENISE PRINGLE: meaningful, right. It's got to be

DENISE PRINGLE: meaningful, it's got to be meaningful.

DENISE PRINGLE: But it's not just meaningful for the

DENISE PRINGLE: organisation or the outcome or

DENISE PRINGLE: the policy point we're trying to land.

DENISE PRINGLE: It needs to be meaningful for the lived

DENISE PRINGLE: experienced folks that are taking part in

DENISE PRINGLE: it. And the only way you're going to understand

DENISE PRINGLE: what meaningful means for them is by

DENISE PRINGLE: exploring it and diving in and learning

DENISE PRINGLE: more about them; finding out what things

DENISE PRINGLE: are difficult, what aligns with their

DENISE PRINGLE: wants and ambitions.

DENISE PRINGLE: And all of that takes a lot of time and

DENISE PRINGLE: safety planning and transparency.

DENISE PRINGLE: Because trust doesn't come easy.

CLARE KELLY: Something we were really keen to do was

CLARE KELLY: involve voices from underrepresented areas,

CLARE KELLY: seldom heard voices in the room who

CLARE KELLY: had not yet had the opportunities or hadn't

CLARE KELLY: been heard during the original independent

CLARE KELLY: inquiry, and still wanted to make sure that

CLARE KELLY: they got space in the room with the right

CLARE KELLY: people. That was something during the

CLARE KELLY: planning phase as well, when we were

CLARE KELLY: thinking about who our speakers were and

CLARE KELLY: making sure that they were in a position to,

CLARE KELLY: yes, be safe and it be healthy for them, but

CLARE KELLY: also making sure we had a really good spread

CLARE KELLY: of voices because child sexual abuse affects

CLARE KELLY: so many different areas, different

CLARE KELLY: communities and individuals as well.

PETER WANLESS: There was also the relationship

PETER WANLESS: between the stories

PETER WANLESS: which people had to tell— it's a horrible

PETER WANLESS: word really, 'story', isn't it. I mean,

PETER WANLESS: this is life experience.

PETER WANLESS: Lived experience is a better phrase.

PETER WANLESS: But how to relate...

PETER WANLESS: It would have been quite straightforward

PETER WANLESS: at one level to get some people to come

PETER WANLESS: and tell us what has happened in your life

PETER WANLESS: in order to shock or inspire, but

PETER WANLESS: actually, there were some crunchy

PETER WANLESS: recommendations and expectations

PETER WANLESS: that have been raised as a consequence of

PETER WANLESS: the inquiry, weren't there?

PETER WANLESS: So relating the stories to the

PETER WANLESS: change we wanted to see, I think, was

PETER WANLESS: another really important dimension to this

PETER WANLESS: that you must have given an awful lot of

PETER WANLESS: thought to.

DENISE PRINGLE: We did spend a lot of time on this and it

DENISE PRINGLE: really fell onto

DENISE PRINGLE: survivor speakers to do

DENISE PRINGLE: a lot of that labour with Clare and I

DENISE PRINGLE: supporting them. Because, in order

DENISE PRINGLE: to make sure you're not doing tokenistic

DENISE PRINGLE: participation, you need to make sure that

DENISE PRINGLE: you're not just using people as props or

DENISE PRINGLE: creating a sense of, like you said, just

DENISE PRINGLE: trying to 'shock factor' people or

DENISE PRINGLE: sensationalise someone's life

DENISE PRINGLE: experiences; because apart from

DENISE PRINGLE: these abuse experiences, these are also

DENISE PRINGLE: human beings and folks that have whole

DENISE PRINGLE: complete lives outside of it and we

DENISE PRINGLE: wanted them to bring their entire selves

DENISE PRINGLE: to the event. So Clare and I worked with

DENISE PRINGLE: them to identify which recommendations

DENISE PRINGLE: and policy areas they were interested in,

DENISE PRINGLE: how it aligned with their experiences,

DENISE PRINGLE: what particular points they wanted to

DENISE PRINGLE: make, and how that correlated with who

DENISE PRINGLE: was in the room.

DENISE PRINGLE: Then we did a lot of work making sure

DENISE PRINGLE: that we were helping to manage the

DENISE PRINGLE: emotional boundaries of it as well.

DENISE PRINGLE: Because although we never wanted to

DENISE PRINGLE: censor people, we had to be aware that we

DENISE PRINGLE: have a large amount of survivors speaking

DENISE PRINGLE: in the same room, and there would

DENISE PRINGLE: definitely be undisclosed survivors in

DENISE PRINGLE: the audience, and we didn't want it to be

DENISE PRINGLE: an an event where everyone was

DENISE PRINGLE: becoming retraumatised and put in a

DENISE PRINGLE: really fragile state.

DENISE PRINGLE: So that was something we had to carefully

DENISE PRINGLE: work through individually with each

DENISE PRINGLE: speaker. It wasn't something that could

DENISE PRINGLE: just be done with a blanket approach.

PETER WANLESS: Another thing which struck me on the day

PETER WANLESS: was — and I'm interested in the extent to

PETER WANLESS: which this was planned or it just emerged

PETER WANLESS: — was, you know, we heard

PETER WANLESS: about some really devastating

PETER WANLESS: consequences and shattered lives,

PETER WANLESS: but we also heard aspects

PETER WANLESS: of hope and success

PETER WANLESS: within some of the stories.

PETER WANLESS: So the testimony felt

PETER WANLESS: authentically associated with a range of

PETER WANLESS: different characters, but also

PETER WANLESS: when one listened to the collection

PETER WANLESS: of speakers together, it wasn't

PETER WANLESS: unadulterated misery and

PETER WANLESS: everything is wrong and hopeless.

PETER WANLESS: Actually, within the

PETER WANLESS: testimony that was delivered on the day,

PETER WANLESS: there were clues and examples that left

PETER WANLESS: people at the event thinking,

PETER WANLESS: 'actually, it doesn't have to be like

PETER WANLESS: this.'

DENISE PRINGLE: It doesn't have to just be

DENISE PRINGLE: pity and sadness.

DENISE PRINGLE: They have their place, but what we wanted

DENISE PRINGLE: to focus on — and we said this right at

DENISE PRINGLE: the beginning of the event — is, you

DENISE PRINGLE: know, bring your whole self, bring all

DENISE PRINGLE: the feelings of anger and and shock, but

DENISE PRINGLE: we want to inspire people to move through

DENISE PRINGLE: that to action because that's what

DENISE PRINGLE: survivors are asking for.

DENISE PRINGLE: That's what they need. That's what they

DENISE PRINGLE: want.

DENISE PRINGLE: So that we're not just stuck in this

DENISE PRINGLE: frozen state of being overwhelmed, which

DENISE PRINGLE: is easy to be.

DENISE PRINGLE: Part of being able to prioritise that

DENISE PRINGLE: hope and wholeness

DENISE PRINGLE: comes down to really prioritising a

DENISE PRINGLE: trauma-informed approach and making sure

DENISE PRINGLE: that you're prioritising people's

DENISE PRINGLE: strengths and their skills and their

DENISE PRINGLE: humanity and their wholeness,

DENISE PRINGLE: rather than just focusing on what's

DENISE PRINGLE: happened to them. So that was definitely

DENISE PRINGLE: a lens that we put all of the planning

DENISE PRINGLE: through, including

DENISE PRINGLE: all the speeches as well.

CLARE KELLY: The other big thing on the actual day itself

CLARE KELLY: was the planning Denise had done around

CLARE KELLY: specific advocacy; having a safety

CLARE KELLY: plan for each individual and having enough

CLARE KELLY: support.

CLARE KELLY: I think, again, that is something that can

CLARE KELLY: be underestimated.

CLARE KELLY: Denise is fabulous, but she is not ten

CLARE KELLY: people in ten different rooms in ten

CLARE KELLY: different scenarios.

CLARE KELLY: And we knew — thinking about this amount of

CLARE KELLY: people that would require, appropriately so,

CLARE KELLY: support on the day — we needed support.

CLARE KELLY: So we went out to IICSA Changemakers and we

CLARE KELLY: knew who had the right qualifications, who

CLARE KELLY: had the right characteristics and skillset,

CLARE KELLY: and was experienced at supporting people

CLARE KELLY: with lived experiences in similar

CLARE KELLY: situations.

CLARE KELLY: We don't think anyone had done a very

CLARE KELLY: specific one like this, but Denise, you

CLARE KELLY: ran sessions with them and you spent as much

CLARE KELLY: time with the advocates as you did with the

CLARE KELLY: survivors. I just think it'd be great to

CLARE KELLY: talk about that a bit as well.

DENISE PRINGLE: Every survivor speaker had a safety plan

DENISE PRINGLE: that was done with me and in

DENISE PRINGLE: collaboration with them, so they had full

DENISE PRINGLE: transparency of it.

DENISE PRINGLE: Every survivor speaker then had an

DENISE PRINGLE: assigned advocate. As Clare said, this

DENISE PRINGLE: was a dedicated professional that had

DENISE PRINGLE: experience in safeguarding and had been

DENISE PRINGLE: matched and aligned with what

DENISE PRINGLE: that individual speaker would feel

DENISE PRINGLE: comfortable with. And they were really

DENISE PRINGLE: their point of contact for the day.

DENISE PRINGLE: So imagine it like a miniature

DENISE PRINGLE: safeguarding triage; so

DENISE PRINGLE: we had all of the advocates with their

DENISE PRINGLE: speaker and they could escalate up to me

DENISE PRINGLE: and Clare if necessary, but then they

DENISE PRINGLE: also had their own levels of awareness on

DENISE PRINGLE: their individual speaker safety plan so

DENISE PRINGLE: they could respond in the moment if

DENISE PRINGLE: needed and necessary.

DENISE PRINGLE: But we absolutely couldn't have done the

DENISE PRINGLE: day without them. I think it would have

DENISE PRINGLE: severely impacted survivor's

DENISE PRINGLE: wellbeing and safety — not just physical

DENISE PRINGLE: safety, but psychological safety as well

DENISE PRINGLE: — if they hadn't had that singular point

DENISE PRINGLE: of contact that they could trust was

DENISE PRINGLE: solely there for them.

CLARE KELLY: I think the other thing on the day that we

CLARE KELLY: found incredibly important was environment.

CLARE KELLY: We'd done quite a few recces of the

CLARE KELLY: location. We knew it, we knew what was going

CLARE KELLY: to be... how the layout was, and we could

CLARE KELLY: describe that to people early on so that we

CLARE KELLY: could have discussions around does anything

CLARE KELLY: not feel right about that environment?

CLARE KELLY: What can we change? What can we do?

CLARE KELLY: But something that we learned on the day was

CLARE KELLY: that you have to be flexible to that and

CLARE KELLY: that things can change.

CLARE KELLY: Denise and I had worked up this huge risk

CLARE KELLY: register. Denise had thought of nearly every

CLARE KELLY: situation—

DENISE PRINGLE: [Laughter.] Literally every scenario you

DENISE PRINGLE: think possibly could happen.

CLARE KELLY: —Every scenario; fire, flood the lot. Peter,

CLARE KELLY: you kindly signed it off for us and we had

CLARE KELLY: this big conversation about, okay, these are

CLARE KELLY: the steps that we've gone through and these

CLARE KELLY: are the plans that we've got.

CLARE KELLY: And then on the day, I think it's important

CLARE KELLY: to share that things can change.

CLARE KELLY: In our venue, which was a

CLARE KELLY: community/charity-based venue, they had

CLARE KELLY: rented out some rooms to the NHS who were

CLARE KELLY: doing blood donation and the venue had not

CLARE KELLY: shared that with us.

CLARE KELLY: We knew instantly that might be a

CLARE KELLY: significant consideration for our survivor

CLARE KELLY: speakers, but also our guests — we don't

CLARE KELLY: know who has had negative experiences before

CLARE KELLY: and that might be a problem. We had to have

CLARE KELLY: enough flexibility on the day to move to

CLARE KELLY: that, respond to it, and I think the biggest

CLARE KELLY: thing we did that people responded to was

CLARE KELLY: being transparent about it.

PETER WANLESS: You talked about the whole design of the

PETER WANLESS: event being trauma-informed.

PETER WANLESS: I have lost count of the number of times

PETER WANLESS: that I've been to events where

PETER WANLESS: someone stands up at the beginning — and

PETER WANLESS: the content is going to be about child

PETER WANLESS: sexual abuse — and someone says 'there

PETER WANLESS: could be some content here which is

PETER WANLESS: relevant to child sexual abuse, so I'm

PETER WANLESS: just giving you a warning.' Now, when

PETER WANLESS: you say 'trauma-informed' it is so

PETER WANLESS: much more than that.

PETER WANLESS: I haven't given you notice, Denise, that

PETER WANLESS: I'm going to ask you this question but the

PETER WANLESS: remarks which you gave at the start of the

PETER WANLESS: conference — could you say a little bit

PETER WANLESS: more about those?

DENISE PRINGLE: This is the danger with the

DENISE PRINGLE: phrase 'trauma-informed' is that as it

DENISE PRINGLE: gets more well-known, it can also then

DENISE PRINGLE: become tokenised itself and be used

DENISE PRINGLE: in situations that aren't actually

DENISE PRINGLE: trauma-informed.

DENISE PRINGLE: There isn't really one specific common

DENISE PRINGLE: definition, people tend to

DENISE PRINGLE: slightly mould it depending on their

DENISE PRINGLE: organisation and their needs, but there

DENISE PRINGLE: tends to be five or six cornerstones and

DENISE PRINGLE: pillars of trauma-informed practice that

DENISE PRINGLE: people work with.

DENISE PRINGLE: For Clare and I when we were planning the

DENISE PRINGLE: event, it was: safety, choice,

DENISE PRINGLE: collaboration, trust and cultural equity.

DENISE PRINGLE: So everything we were doing had

DENISE PRINGLE: to prioritise those principles, or I

DENISE PRINGLE: had to look at what I was asking of

DENISE PRINGLE: people or how I was talking to them and

DENISE PRINGLE: say, how am I prioritising these things?

DENISE PRINGLE: What are the power dynamics like?

DENISE PRINGLE: Are we gatekeeping? Are we hoarding

DENISE PRINGLE: information for no reason?

DENISE PRINGLE: And I really wanted to make sure that

DENISE PRINGLE: came across in the opening of

DENISE PRINGLE: the event, because we knew we had to have

DENISE PRINGLE: a very boundaried event.

DENISE PRINGLE: We knew that for the safety of the

DENISE PRINGLE: delegates and the speakers.

DENISE PRINGLE: But like you said, we didn't want to just

DENISE PRINGLE: stand up and say, 'here's a trigger

DENISE PRINGLE: warning', because although they

DENISE PRINGLE: definitely have their place and some

DENISE PRINGLE: people do find them very helpful, we

DENISE PRINGLE: needed the understanding there as well

DENISE PRINGLE: so delegates could understand the

DENISE PRINGLE: intention and the space and what people

DENISE PRINGLE: needed, so there wasn't this us versus

DENISE PRINGLE: them dynamic; survivors [on] one side,

DENISE PRINGLE: delegates [on] the other side.

DENISE PRINGLE: Because as fantastic as practitioners

DENISE PRINGLE: are, sometimes we distance ourselves from

DENISE PRINGLE: the emotion of an event because

DENISE PRINGLE: it feels safer or because we don't want

DENISE PRINGLE: to seem emotional in our professional

DENISE PRINGLE: lives.

DENISE PRINGLE: I can't remember the exact words I said,

DENISE PRINGLE: but I think I was trying to speak to that

DENISE PRINGLE: at the beginning and encourage people to

DENISE PRINGLE: be authentic and present, but also

DENISE PRINGLE: to remember that we're not here just to

DENISE PRINGLE: be garnering pity.

DENISE PRINGLE: Survivors don't need people to come

DENISE PRINGLE: and tell them, 'I'm so sorry'.

DENISE PRINGLE: They want to hear what you're going to do

DENISE PRINGLE: about it.

DENISE PRINGLE: And, by the way, these themes are going

DENISE PRINGLE: to come up, so take care of yourselves,

DENISE PRINGLE: but, full transparency, this is what

DENISE PRINGLE: we're talking about.

PETER WANLESS: And I'm used to going to events and

PETER WANLESS: going away saying, 'oh, my head's

PETER WANLESS: buzzing with all these ideas and thoughts'

PETER WANLESS: and I'm quite a kind of task-based person

PETER WANLESS: and can relate to the idea of, you know, I

PETER WANLESS: need to go and lie down and have a think

PETER WANLESS: or whatever, because there's so many thoughts

PETER WANLESS: going on in my head. Whereas I came out of

PETER WANLESS: this experience with so many things going

PETER WANLESS: on in my heart and my soul.

PETER WANLESS: And, you know, I've said that it's one of

PETER WANLESS: the most memorable days of my time at the

PETER WANLESS: NSPCC.

PETER WANLESS: I left packed full of...

PETER WANLESS: I've said I was concerned.

PETER WANLESS: I was horrified.

PETER WANLESS: I was inspired.

PETER WANLESS: I was angry.

PETER WANLESS: I was impatient.

PETER WANLESS: I was in awe of the speakers.

PETER WANLESS: There were all these feelings going on,

PETER WANLESS: and I had to— Rather than going straight

PETER WANLESS: on the tube, I took myself off for a

PETER WANLESS: walk and that really helped.

PETER WANLESS: But that was me.

PETER WANLESS: How was it for the

PETER WANLESS: speakers in particular and

PETER WANLESS: the advocates and for your selves

PETER WANLESS: subsequent to the event? Because I think

PETER WANLESS: you've got quite a lot to share there in

PETER WANLESS: terms of what we learnt, what we expected

PETER WANLESS: and maybe what we didn't expect.

DENISE PRINGLE: You can never do any kind of

DENISE PRINGLE: participation or event like this without

DENISE PRINGLE: there being a cost.

DENISE PRINGLE: That's just the reality of this work.

DENISE PRINGLE: But what's important is making sure that

DENISE PRINGLE: you're transparent and giving enough

DENISE PRINGLE: information that survivors are making

DENISE PRINGLE: informed consent so they can balance that

DENISE PRINGLE: cost, sacrifice versus outcome.

DENISE PRINGLE: So in the immediate aftermath of

DENISE PRINGLE: the event, we had not only that being

DENISE PRINGLE: explored by speakers, but then the

DENISE PRINGLE: physical and emotional repercussions;

DENISE PRINGLE: because being visible as

DENISE PRINGLE: a survivor, talking about your

DENISE PRINGLE: experiences, it affects you

DENISE PRINGLE: physically, it affects you emotionally,

DENISE PRINGLE: for some people it affects you spiritually,

DENISE PRINGLE: all in individual ways.

DENISE PRINGLE: And it's also not something— I think

DENISE PRINGLE: actually someone said this in one of

DENISE PRINGLE: their speeches, that it doesn't nice and

DENISE PRINGLE: neatly fall into a nine-to-five work

DENISE PRINGLE: pattern. You know, these are symptoms and

DENISE PRINGLE: consequences that unfold over a series

DENISE PRINGLE: of days and weeks.

DENISE PRINGLE: So the period of time after the

DENISE PRINGLE: event was as important as the prep.

DENISE PRINGLE: We had debriefs, stabilisation time, a

DENISE PRINGLE: lot of check-ins.

DENISE PRINGLE: It was really time to help speakers

DENISE PRINGLE: and survivors route back into their

DENISE PRINGLE: lives, route back into

DENISE PRINGLE: how they feel grounded and stable to make

DENISE PRINGLE: sure that this didn't completely derail

DENISE PRINGLE: them from their present life.

DENISE PRINGLE: But we had no one regret taking

DENISE PRINGLE: part in the event.

DENISE PRINGLE: No survivor came back and said, 'I wish I

DENISE PRINGLE: hadn't done that. The cost wasn't worth

DENISE PRINGLE: it for me.' And that,

DENISE PRINGLE: for me, is important; that feels worth

DENISE PRINGLE: it.

PETER WANLESS: And there's something special about the

PETER WANLESS: coalition that is the Changemakers in this

PETER WANLESS: context as well, isn't there.

PETER WANLESS: So this wasn't the conference which was

PETER WANLESS: being put on to advance the interests

PETER WANLESS: of any individual or organisation.

PETER WANLESS: As you said earlier on, it was to create a

PETER WANLESS: platform to amplify the insights and

PETER WANLESS: experiences of people who'd experienced

PETER WANLESS: child sexual abuse. And that was something

PETER WANLESS: which united the 67 organisations

PETER WANLESS: in their determination for things to be

PETER WANLESS: better. So, the collective endeavour feels

PETER WANLESS: quite special actually in this way of

PETER WANLESS: working, which is another interesting

PETER WANLESS: thing perhaps just to reflect on.

CLARE KELLY: I think it is. We always felt this

CLARE KELLY: background of support from the Changemakers.

CLARE KELLY: We'd had to do some really careful pitching

CLARE KELLY: in the early days when we were planning the

CLARE KELLY: event of 'we want to do this, what do you

CLARE KELLY: think' and taking in views.

CLARE KELLY: But then another thing that we had was space

CLARE KELLY: to create.

CLARE KELLY: I remember the early days when we came to

CLARE KELLY: you and we said, 'We've got this idea, it's

CLARE KELLY: a little bit different, there's an awful lot

CLARE KELLY: of risk, but will you trust us to do it?'

CLARE KELLY: And you did.

CLARE KELLY: And I think that's an incredibly important

CLARE KELLY: thing when you have got trust amongst a

CLARE KELLY: group of people and can say, okay, it might

CLARE KELLY: be risky, but it's going to be worth it as

CLARE KELLY: long as you can show me the safety

CLARE KELLY: mechanisms and that everything is being done

CLARE KELLY: well, it's worth doing.

CLARE KELLY: And I think that was always in our mind as

CLARE KELLY: we worked through, wasn't it?

DENISE PRINGLE: Yeah, absolutely.

DENISE PRINGLE: You need people at the top to be able

DENISE PRINGLE: to trust and invest in your ideas for

DENISE PRINGLE: it to come to life.

DENISE PRINGLE: But then likewise, I think, Clare, we

DENISE PRINGLE: needed the trust with each other as well

DENISE PRINGLE: because we were managing so much.

DENISE PRINGLE: We needed to be able to feel the support

DENISE PRINGLE: and trust together and then have all the

DENISE PRINGLE: Changemakers as well. All of the

DENISE PRINGLE: advocates who were Changemakers were

DENISE PRINGLE: phenomenal and their support

DENISE PRINGLE: was absolutely integral.

DENISE PRINGLE: But all of the work that we did is,

DENISE PRINGLE: without minimising our own input,

DENISE PRINGLE: it's nothing compared to the amount of

DENISE PRINGLE: strength and labour that the survivors

DENISE PRINGLE: put in to attend the event, to speak,

DENISE PRINGLE: to deal with the aftermath.

DENISE PRINGLE: So, for me, even though it was a lot of

DENISE PRINGLE: work, I just think it was all worth it to

DENISE PRINGLE: be able to facilitate that opportunity

DENISE PRINGLE: for survivors and for Changemakers to be

DENISE PRINGLE: there with them and say, we're here with

DENISE PRINGLE: you.

DENISE PRINGLE: Absolutely worth it.

PETER WANLESS: So, just to to conclude: if you

PETER WANLESS: were to be giving advice

PETER WANLESS: to listeners who are thinking

PETER WANLESS: of doing work with victims and survivors,

PETER WANLESS: what would you say?

DENISE PRINGLE: I suppose I want to draw it back to what

DENISE PRINGLE: I said at the beginning, that with lived

DENISE PRINGLE: experience and working with victims and

DENISE PRINGLE: survivors, it's never a tick box.

DENISE PRINGLE: It's never going to be something that you

DENISE PRINGLE: get absolutely right or you're going to

DENISE PRINGLE: nail every time.

DENISE PRINGLE: There's always going to be risk and

DENISE PRINGLE: flexibility and nuance and intersection

DENISE PRINGLE: with other issues and vulnerabilities, so

DENISE PRINGLE: be alive to that.

DENISE PRINGLE: Don't strive for perfection.

DENISE PRINGLE: Strive for safety, humanity,

DENISE PRINGLE: trauma-informed working; because that's

DENISE PRINGLE: a more realistic outlook when you're

DENISE PRINGLE: approaching this work.

DENISE PRINGLE: Clare, what about you?

CLARE KELLY: I would ask yourself a question: is

CLARE KELLY: what you're about to do actually going to

CLARE KELLY: move things on for future survivors and

CLARE KELLY: victims? And if it is, if you can

CLARE KELLY: genuinely say to yourself, 'yes, it will,'

CLARE KELLY: then it is worth your commitment, time and

CLARE KELLY: energy. And if you put that in, know that

CLARE KELLY: the survivors are putting a hundred fold

CLARE KELLY: more in. Then go for it, embrace

CLARE KELLY: it, because it has such significant

CLARE KELLY: impact. You know, for the event, we had a

CLARE KELLY: booklet that we gave out at the end, which

CLARE KELLY: had my wording that we'd use from IICSA

CLARE KELLY: Changemakers, and then it was backed up by

CLARE KELLY: survivor experience on every single point.

CLARE KELLY: I think I'd given those speeches at events

CLARE KELLY: on those points so many times and they'd

CLARE KELLY: meant something; but back it up with

CLARE KELLY: survivor experience and it lands.

CLARE KELLY: The message is so much clearer and easier

CLARE KELLY: for people to feel and experience, and like

CLARE KELLY: you said, Peter, it hits differently when

CLARE KELLY: you get it like that, so it will move

CLARE KELLY: positions on.

CLARE KELLY: I think the other really important thing to

CLARE KELLY: consider is that fear can creep up

CLARE KELLY: in this area.

CLARE KELLY: People can overthink and get

CLARE KELLY: so caught up and be afraid of taking

CLARE KELLY: this step to make sure that they are

CLARE KELLY: including survivor voice.

CLARE KELLY: I would really urge people to put that fear

CLARE KELLY: aside, and if anything turn into your risk

CLARE KELLY: management. You can lower your own fear and

CLARE KELLY: anxiety by managing things properly, looking

CLARE KELLY: for appropriate mitigations to those issues.

CLARE KELLY: So use the fear that you had but we would

CLARE KELLY: urge please go for it, overcome that fear

CLARE KELLY: and turn it into action, because that will

CLARE KELLY: actually help people.

DENISE PRINGLE: Sometimes that fear can be part of how we

DENISE PRINGLE: 'other' survivors. It's sometimes

DENISE PRINGLE: referred to as 'othering' where you push

DENISE PRINGLE: and separate a group of people.

DENISE PRINGLE: When we are afraid to connect and afraid

DENISE PRINGLE: to work with, we can 'other'.

DENISE PRINGLE: So think of it as

DENISE PRINGLE: a great piece of advocacy and activism as

DENISE PRINGLE: well. When you're embracing and doing

DENISE PRINGLE: risk management properly, you're

DENISE PRINGLE: connecting and you're making sure that

DENISE PRINGLE: you're breaking down that sense of

DENISE PRINGLE: othering and really treating people and

DENISE PRINGLE: including them.

CLARE KELLY: Don't underestimate the importance of

CLARE KELLY: skill in this area.

CLARE KELLY: It is paramount.

CLARE KELLY: It is not safe to do it without it.

CLARE KELLY: You need that expertise.

CLARE KELLY: But even if you personally don't have that

CLARE KELLY: expertise, be open to working with someone

CLARE KELLY: who does and they will share with you and

CLARE KELLY: they will help you carry out things in a

CLARE KELLY: safe and appropriate way and you will be all

CLARE KELLY: the better for it.

PETER WANLESS: Denise, where do you go about learning

PETER WANLESS: those skills then?

PETER WANLESS: So if I come out of this call and

PETER WANLESS: I think, 'yeah, that's something I'd like

PETER WANLESS: to get better at',

PETER WANLESS: what would I need to do?

DENISE PRINGLE: I mean, I had an advantage because most

DENISE PRINGLE: of my career I've worked in the violence

DENISE PRINGLE: against women and girls sector.

DENISE PRINGLE: So I've been frontline, I've

DENISE PRINGLE: worked in training, I've worked in

DENISE PRINGLE: digital technologies, so I've had the

DENISE PRINGLE: benefit of a lot of training

DENISE PRINGLE: in my career.

DENISE PRINGLE: It's definitely not something that you

DENISE PRINGLE: should bulldoze into and make assumptions

DENISE PRINGLE: of, but you can start learning

DENISE PRINGLE: about trauma-informed practice; I can't

DENISE PRINGLE: emphasise that enough of how critical

DENISE PRINGLE: it is to safe and meaningful work

DENISE PRINGLE: across the board.

DENISE PRINGLE: Also understanding intersectionality;

DENISE PRINGLE: again, it's something that I think

DENISE PRINGLE: more people are becoming aware of, quite

DENISE PRINGLE: rightly, but you need to have an in-depth

DENISE PRINGLE: courage and willingness to

DENISE PRINGLE: explore it because it's not something

DENISE PRINGLE: that you can just tick off.

DENISE PRINGLE: So those would be my two ports of call.

DENISE PRINGLE: I would say dive into trauma-informed

DENISE PRINGLE: working, dive into learning about

DENISE PRINGLE: intersectionality and best practice with

DENISE PRINGLE: that, and then that's your skillset that

DENISE PRINGLE: then would help bolster the work.

PETER WANLESS: Excellent. Very good.

PETER WANLESS: Well, thank you very much to both of you

PETER WANLESS: for working so carefully

PETER WANLESS: with our lived experience speakers

PETER WANLESS: and with the Changemakers to put on such a

PETER WANLESS: memorable and important day.

PETER WANLESS: And, as we have this conversation,

PETER WANLESS: I have seen and

PETER WANLESS: heard from at least one

PETER WANLESS: government minister who has

PETER WANLESS: reflected on what they have been told

PETER WANLESS: happened on this day and how important it

PETER WANLESS: is to their thinking.

PETER WANLESS: And they're

PETER WANLESS: not the only ones, so we need to follow

PETER WANLESS: through and follow up on that.

PETER WANLESS: But there's definitely work to

PETER WANLESS: be done that this

PETER WANLESS: day has created something of

PETER WANLESS: a reset on.

PETER WANLESS: So, powerful and important work,

PETER WANLESS: but it doesn't happen without a huge

PETER WANLESS: amount of preparation, and as we've

PETER WANLESS: reflected, a huge amount of aftercare,

PETER WANLESS: never mind all the diligence

PETER WANLESS: that was was applied on the day.

PETER WANLESS: So thanks for sharing all of that with

PETER WANLESS: us on this podcast and

PETER WANLESS: on we go.

DENISE PRINGLE: Thanks, Peter.

CLARE KELLY: Thank you, Peter.

CLARE KELLY: Thank you, Denise.

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