1 00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:02,189 PRODUCER: This episode discusses practitioners' 2 00:00:02,190 --> 00:00:04,169 PRODUCER: experiences of working with adult 3 00:00:04,170 --> 00:00:07,169 PRODUCER: victim-survivors of child sexual abuse. 4 00:00:07,170 --> 00:00:09,599 PRODUCER: Whilst listening, please be mindful of your own 5 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,149 PRODUCER: wellbeing and prioritise taking a break if you 6 00:00:12,150 --> 00:00:13,150 PRODUCER: need to. 7 00:00:16,379 --> 00:00:19,349 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where 8 00:00:19,350 --> 00:00:21,599 INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child 9 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,089 INTRO: protection from inside and outside of the 10 00:00:24,090 --> 00:00:25,529 INTRO: organisation. 11 00:00:25,530 --> 00:00:28,469 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection 12 00:00:28,470 --> 00:00:30,899 INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work 13 00:00:30,900 --> 00:00:33,779 INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young 14 00:00:33,780 --> 00:00:34,780 INTRO: people safe. 15 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,699 PETER WANLESS: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. 16 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:43,309 PETER WANLESS: I am Peter Wanless, I'm the Chief 17 00:00:43,310 --> 00:00:46,279 PETER WANLESS: Executive of the NSPCC and also 18 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,081 PETER WANLESS: the Chair of the IICSA Changemakers, 19 00:00:50,660 --> 00:00:52,699 PETER WANLESS: IICSA being the Independent Inquiry into 20 00:00:52,700 --> 00:00:54,589 PETER WANLESS: Child Sexual Abuse. 21 00:00:54,590 --> 00:00:58,069 PETER WANLESS: Now, back in the autumn of 2022, 22 00:00:58,070 --> 00:01:00,049 PETER WANLESS: the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual 23 00:01:00,050 --> 00:01:02,419 PETER WANLESS: Abuse produced its final report and 24 00:01:02,420 --> 00:01:05,569 PETER WANLESS: recommendations. This was a culmination of 25 00:01:05,570 --> 00:01:08,719 PETER WANLESS: seven years of work 26 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,095 PETER WANLESS: at a cost of a quarter of a £1 billion, 27 00:01:12,096 --> 00:01:15,259 PETER WANLESS: and an exercise which took testimony from 28 00:01:15,260 --> 00:01:18,529 PETER WANLESS: over 7,000 victims and survivors 29 00:01:18,530 --> 00:01:19,849 PETER WANLESS: of child sexual abuse. 30 00:01:19,850 --> 00:01:22,069 PETER WANLESS: But the way these public inquiries work, 31 00:01:22,070 --> 00:01:25,609 PETER WANLESS: there isn't an automatic implementation 32 00:01:25,610 --> 00:01:27,679 PETER WANLESS: mechanism associated with the 33 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,019 PETER WANLESS: recommendations. The recommendations go to 34 00:01:30,020 --> 00:01:32,749 PETER WANLESS: the government and who knows what might 35 00:01:32,750 --> 00:01:34,099 PETER WANLESS: happen next. 36 00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:36,452 PETER WANLESS: So, the authors of the IICSA reports 37 00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:42,239 PETER WANLESS: convened a meeting of interested, 38 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,959 PETER WANLESS: like-minded individuals and organisations 39 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:49,739 PETER WANLESS: to reflect on what they had discovered, 40 00:01:49,740 --> 00:01:51,929 PETER WANLESS: just to pose the question 'what's going to 41 00:01:51,930 --> 00:01:55,109 PETER WANLESS: happen next?' I was one of the people 42 00:01:55,110 --> 00:01:58,499 PETER WANLESS: fortunate enough to be at that meeting 43 00:01:58,500 --> 00:02:01,439 PETER WANLESS: and we reflected on the 44 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,349 PETER WANLESS: huge scale of 45 00:02:04,350 --> 00:02:07,289 PETER WANLESS: change that was going to be required 46 00:02:07,290 --> 00:02:09,599 PETER WANLESS: if the recommendations that IICSA had come 47 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,429 PETER WANLESS: up with were going to be realised. 48 00:02:13,710 --> 00:02:15,479 PETER WANLESS: We all looked at one another and everyone 49 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,759 PETER WANLESS: looked at everyone else and thought, well, 50 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,589 PETER WANLESS: what are we going to do about this? 51 00:02:19,590 --> 00:02:22,799 PETER WANLESS: And I thought, if not 52 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,119 PETER WANLESS: us, then who? 53 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,489 PETER WANLESS: And if not now, then when? 54 00:02:26,490 --> 00:02:29,189 PETER WANLESS: And between us, we agreed that we should 55 00:02:29,190 --> 00:02:32,129 PETER WANLESS: convene a collective group of 56 00:02:32,130 --> 00:02:35,159 PETER WANLESS: organisations really to keep 57 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,789 PETER WANLESS: the IICSA recommendation flames 58 00:02:38,790 --> 00:02:41,639 PETER WANLESS: alive for three really important reasons. 59 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:44,129 PETER WANLESS: The first was that there really did need 60 00:02:44,130 --> 00:02:47,609 PETER WANLESS: to be a step change in the statutory 61 00:02:47,610 --> 00:02:50,459 PETER WANLESS: framework within which these 62 00:02:50,460 --> 00:02:52,079 PETER WANLESS: issues are considered. 63 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,299 PETER WANLESS: Secondly, there's all sorts of things 64 00:02:54,300 --> 00:02:56,609 PETER WANLESS: which organisations could be doing to 65 00:02:56,610 --> 00:02:58,889 PETER WANLESS: improve the consistency of their 66 00:02:58,890 --> 00:03:00,879 PETER WANLESS: safeguarding and protection of children 67 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,929 PETER WANLESS: and young people at risk of child sexual 68 00:03:03,930 --> 00:03:06,989 PETER WANLESS: abuse. And thirdly, we felt that in 69 00:03:06,990 --> 00:03:09,749 PETER WANLESS: particular the voices and perspectives of 70 00:03:09,750 --> 00:03:12,569 PETER WANLESS: all those victims and survivors who had 71 00:03:12,570 --> 00:03:15,719 PETER WANLESS: given that testimony deserved 72 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,959 PETER WANLESS: to be kept at the forefront of the debate 73 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,119 PETER WANLESS: and discussion in terms of what happened 74 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,999 PETER WANLESS: next. So out of that 75 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,909 PETER WANLESS: conference, the IICSA Changemakers 76 00:03:26,910 --> 00:03:30,449 PETER WANLESS: were born. I agreed to chair 77 00:03:30,450 --> 00:03:33,509 PETER WANLESS: this coalition of organisations — of which 78 00:03:33,510 --> 00:03:36,689 PETER WANLESS: there are now, I think from memory, 67 — 79 00:03:36,690 --> 00:03:40,949 PETER WANLESS: who share those high-level objectives. 80 00:03:40,950 --> 00:03:44,189 PETER WANLESS: As 67 organisations, we are 81 00:03:44,190 --> 00:03:47,459 PETER WANLESS: supported by Clare Kelly, 82 00:03:47,460 --> 00:03:50,639 PETER WANLESS: who has been pulling the work together 83 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,339 PETER WANLESS: and creating momentum and focus behind our 84 00:03:53,340 --> 00:03:56,729 PETER WANLESS: efforts and activities, and Denise Pringle 85 00:03:56,730 --> 00:03:59,279 PETER WANLESS: who, right from the beginning, we felt we 86 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,489 PETER WANLESS: needed to support the IICSA Changemakers, 87 00:04:02,490 --> 00:04:05,129 PETER WANLESS: someone with really authentic 88 00:04:05,130 --> 00:04:08,009 PETER WANLESS: understanding and expertise when it comes 89 00:04:08,010 --> 00:04:11,279 PETER WANLESS: to adult-survivor perspectives 90 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,949 PETER WANLESS: on child sexual abuse. 91 00:04:13,950 --> 00:04:17,278 PETER WANLESS: So there's the three of us supported by, 92 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,569 PETER WANLESS: as I say, these 67 organisations, 93 00:04:20,570 --> 00:04:23,159 PETER WANLESS: banging the drum for what happens next, 94 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,429 PETER WANLESS: post the inquiry. 95 00:04:26,430 --> 00:04:30,329 PETER WANLESS: I'd really like now to invite Denise to 96 00:04:30,330 --> 00:04:33,359 PETER WANLESS: tell us a little bit about her involvement 97 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,599 PETER WANLESS: with the Changemakers and in particular 98 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,209 PETER WANLESS: what she's been up to, leading to a really 99 00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:42,689 PETER WANLESS: powerful and important conference 100 00:04:42,690 --> 00:04:46,079 PETER WANLESS: that we had with victims and survivors 101 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,739 PETER WANLESS: of child sexual abuse front and centre. 102 00:04:49,740 --> 00:04:52,379 DENISE PRINGLE: So I am the adult-survivor participation 103 00:04:52,380 --> 00:04:54,419 DENISE PRINGLE: manager for IICSA Changemakers. 104 00:04:54,420 --> 00:04:57,489 DENISE PRINGLE: I joined the team almost a year ago 105 00:04:57,490 --> 00:05:01,229 DENISE PRINGLE: and I came on board really to help 106 00:05:01,230 --> 00:05:04,439 DENISE PRINGLE: make sure that survivor voice 107 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,729 DENISE PRINGLE: was prioritised and included 108 00:05:08,730 --> 00:05:11,639 DENISE PRINGLE: in a really rich and genuinely 109 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,679 DENISE PRINGLE: diverse way. It's not something that you 110 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,079 DENISE PRINGLE: can just tick off and say you've done. 111 00:05:17,850 --> 00:05:20,639 DENISE PRINGLE: We needed to be able to take all the 112 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,419 DENISE PRINGLE: learnings from the over 7,000 113 00:05:24,420 --> 00:05:26,669 DENISE PRINGLE: victims and survivors that engaged with 114 00:05:26,670 --> 00:05:28,739 DENISE PRINGLE: the original inquiry and then those that 115 00:05:28,740 --> 00:05:31,649 DENISE PRINGLE: were engaging with Changemakers 116 00:05:31,650 --> 00:05:35,069 DENISE PRINGLE: to make sure that we were creating 117 00:05:35,070 --> 00:05:38,219 DENISE PRINGLE: safe, meaningful participation, 118 00:05:38,220 --> 00:05:41,069 DENISE PRINGLE: which sounds very straightforward but 119 00:05:41,070 --> 00:05:42,859 DENISE PRINGLE: isn't always. 120 00:05:42,860 --> 00:05:45,419 DENISE PRINGLE: And that really culminated in the event 121 00:05:45,420 --> 00:05:48,569 DENISE PRINGLE: that we did in September where 122 00:05:48,570 --> 00:05:49,570 DENISE PRINGLE: we came together and 123 00:05:51,620 --> 00:05:54,139 DENISE PRINGLE: it was a survivor-led event, which was 124 00:05:54,140 --> 00:05:56,209 DENISE PRINGLE: something that we spent many months 125 00:05:56,210 --> 00:05:57,210 DENISE PRINGLE: planning. 126 00:05:58,010 --> 00:06:00,199 DENISE PRINGLE: It was a chance to use this two-year 127 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,259 DENISE PRINGLE: anniversary of IICSA finishing 128 00:06:03,260 --> 00:06:05,779 DENISE PRINGLE: to come together and say, 'this is why 129 00:06:05,780 --> 00:06:07,489 DENISE PRINGLE: all these issues, all these 130 00:06:07,490 --> 00:06:09,769 DENISE PRINGLE: recommendations are still as important 131 00:06:09,770 --> 00:06:12,349 DENISE PRINGLE: today as they were two years ago,' and 132 00:06:12,350 --> 00:06:16,089 DENISE PRINGLE: trying to get momentum... 133 00:06:16,090 --> 00:06:19,719 DENISE PRINGLE: to keep up the determination 134 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,429 DENISE PRINGLE: to get this work done. 135 00:06:21,430 --> 00:06:24,699 DENISE PRINGLE: Our event was purely 136 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:25,959 DENISE PRINGLE: survivor speaking. 137 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:27,939 DENISE PRINGLE: We didn't allow any CEOs — we didn't 138 00:06:27,940 --> 00:06:31,029 DENISE PRINGLE: allow Peter — to stand up and 139 00:06:31,030 --> 00:06:34,149 DENISE PRINGLE: we didn't allow any policy heads or civil 140 00:06:34,150 --> 00:06:36,219 DENISE PRINGLE: servants to stand up. We really wanted 141 00:06:36,220 --> 00:06:38,349 DENISE PRINGLE: this to be an exercise in witnessing, 142 00:06:38,350 --> 00:06:41,409 DENISE PRINGLE: listening and hearing survivors take 143 00:06:41,410 --> 00:06:44,349 DENISE PRINGLE: the lead and be able to 144 00:06:44,350 --> 00:06:47,589 DENISE PRINGLE: set a tone of trust and holding 145 00:06:47,590 --> 00:06:50,139 DENISE PRINGLE: survivors as experts in their own rights 146 00:06:50,140 --> 00:06:52,599 DENISE PRINGLE: around all of these policy points and 147 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,609 DENISE PRINGLE: their experiences. 148 00:06:54,610 --> 00:06:56,289 DENISE PRINGLE: So, Peter, Clare; do you have any 149 00:06:56,290 --> 00:06:57,939 DENISE PRINGLE: questions about the planning for the 150 00:06:57,940 --> 00:06:59,619 DENISE PRINGLE: event that you want me to particularly 151 00:06:59,620 --> 00:07:00,131 DENISE PRINGLE: focus on? 152 00:07:00,132 --> 00:07:03,189 CLARE KELLY: I think for me, Denise, it was 153 00:07:03,190 --> 00:07:05,229 CLARE KELLY: watching you do your thing as we built 154 00:07:05,230 --> 00:07:07,419 CLARE KELLY: towards that event. Every day there was a 155 00:07:07,420 --> 00:07:10,269 CLARE KELLY: new scheduled element that you knew 156 00:07:10,270 --> 00:07:13,089 CLARE KELLY: we needed to cover. And sometimes, you know, 157 00:07:13,090 --> 00:07:15,459 CLARE KELLY: from someone like myself, I was sat back 158 00:07:15,460 --> 00:07:17,529 CLARE KELLY: going, 'Why do I need to do that?' And you 159 00:07:17,530 --> 00:07:19,749 CLARE KELLY: question it and you don't really understand 160 00:07:19,750 --> 00:07:21,909 CLARE KELLY: it until you see it play out. 161 00:07:21,910 --> 00:07:24,489 CLARE KELLY: And I just wonder, in your experience, do 162 00:07:24,490 --> 00:07:27,339 CLARE KELLY: people really underestimate the amount of 163 00:07:27,340 --> 00:07:29,979 CLARE KELLY: time and energy it takes in the pre-planning 164 00:07:29,980 --> 00:07:32,409 CLARE KELLY: as well? Because you — although we had a few 165 00:07:32,410 --> 00:07:34,719 CLARE KELLY: months to do it — you were constant on it. 166 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,849 CLARE KELLY: I just wonder what your view was on it. 167 00:07:36,850 --> 00:07:39,099 DENISE PRINGLE: A lot of the things with safeguarding and 168 00:07:39,100 --> 00:07:41,769 DENISE PRINGLE: safety and risk management and 169 00:07:41,770 --> 00:07:44,139 DENISE PRINGLE: participation, you're planning for 170 00:07:44,140 --> 00:07:46,359 DENISE PRINGLE: situations and putting measures in place 171 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,119 DENISE PRINGLE: that hopefully you won't actually need or 172 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,159 DENISE PRINGLE: won't need to click into place, but you 173 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,069 DENISE PRINGLE: need to have them planned, prepped 174 00:07:54,070 --> 00:07:55,963 DENISE PRINGLE: and thoroughly explored. 175 00:07:58,210 --> 00:08:00,889 DENISE PRINGLE: Something that you often hear a lot with 176 00:08:02,470 --> 00:08:03,879 DENISE PRINGLE: best practice guidance around 177 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:05,259 DENISE PRINGLE: participation is it's got to be 178 00:08:05,260 --> 00:08:06,699 DENISE PRINGLE: meaningful, right. It's got to be 179 00:08:06,700 --> 00:08:08,739 DENISE PRINGLE: meaningful, it's got to be meaningful. 180 00:08:08,740 --> 00:08:11,679 DENISE PRINGLE: But it's not just meaningful for the 181 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,340 DENISE PRINGLE: organisation or the outcome or 182 00:08:15,910 --> 00:08:17,499 DENISE PRINGLE: the policy point we're trying to land. 183 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:20,559 DENISE PRINGLE: It needs to be meaningful for the lived 184 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,499 DENISE PRINGLE: experienced folks that are taking part in 185 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:25,359 DENISE PRINGLE: it. And the only way you're going to understand 186 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,509 DENISE PRINGLE: what meaningful means for them is by 187 00:08:28,510 --> 00:08:30,969 DENISE PRINGLE: exploring it and diving in and learning 188 00:08:30,970 --> 00:08:33,519 DENISE PRINGLE: more about them; finding out what things 189 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,918 DENISE PRINGLE: are difficult, what aligns with their 190 00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:37,178 DENISE PRINGLE: wants and ambitions. 191 00:08:37,179 --> 00:08:39,428 DENISE PRINGLE: And all of that takes a lot of time and 192 00:08:39,429 --> 00:08:42,699 DENISE PRINGLE: safety planning and transparency. 193 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:44,108 DENISE PRINGLE: Because trust doesn't come easy. 194 00:08:44,109 --> 00:08:46,509 CLARE KELLY: Something we were really keen to do was 195 00:08:46,510 --> 00:08:49,719 CLARE KELLY: involve voices from underrepresented areas, 196 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,629 CLARE KELLY: seldom heard voices in the room who 197 00:08:52,630 --> 00:08:55,089 CLARE KELLY: had not yet had the opportunities or hadn't 198 00:08:55,090 --> 00:08:57,609 CLARE KELLY: been heard during the original independent 199 00:08:57,610 --> 00:09:00,549 CLARE KELLY: inquiry, and still wanted to make sure that 200 00:09:00,550 --> 00:09:02,169 CLARE KELLY: they got space in the room with the right 201 00:09:02,170 --> 00:09:04,419 CLARE KELLY: people. That was something during the 202 00:09:04,420 --> 00:09:05,889 CLARE KELLY: planning phase as well, when we were 203 00:09:05,890 --> 00:09:08,739 CLARE KELLY: thinking about who our speakers were and 204 00:09:08,740 --> 00:09:11,319 CLARE KELLY: making sure that they were in a position to, 205 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,289 CLARE KELLY: yes, be safe and it be healthy for them, but 206 00:09:14,290 --> 00:09:17,379 CLARE KELLY: also making sure we had a really good spread 207 00:09:17,380 --> 00:09:19,809 CLARE KELLY: of voices because child sexual abuse affects 208 00:09:19,810 --> 00:09:21,879 CLARE KELLY: so many different areas, different 209 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:23,799 CLARE KELLY: communities and individuals as well. 210 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,069 PETER WANLESS: There was also the relationship 211 00:09:27,070 --> 00:09:30,399 PETER WANLESS: between the stories 212 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,559 PETER WANLESS: which people had to tell— it's a horrible 213 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:33,909 PETER WANLESS: word really, 'story', isn't it. I mean, 214 00:09:33,910 --> 00:09:36,189 PETER WANLESS: this is life experience. 215 00:09:36,190 --> 00:09:39,059 PETER WANLESS: Lived experience is a better phrase. 216 00:09:39,060 --> 00:09:40,882 PETER WANLESS: But how to relate... 217 00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:45,589 PETER WANLESS: It would have been quite straightforward 218 00:09:45,590 --> 00:09:47,689 PETER WANLESS: at one level to get some people to come 219 00:09:47,690 --> 00:09:50,330 PETER WANLESS: and tell us what has happened in your life 220 00:09:51,590 --> 00:09:54,122 PETER WANLESS: in order to shock or inspire, but 221 00:09:55,310 --> 00:09:58,069 PETER WANLESS: actually, there were some crunchy 222 00:09:58,070 --> 00:10:01,609 PETER WANLESS: recommendations and expectations 223 00:10:01,610 --> 00:10:03,439 PETER WANLESS: that have been raised as a consequence of 224 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:04,819 PETER WANLESS: the inquiry, weren't there? 225 00:10:04,820 --> 00:10:07,849 PETER WANLESS: So relating the stories to the 226 00:10:07,850 --> 00:10:10,309 PETER WANLESS: change we wanted to see, I think, was 227 00:10:10,310 --> 00:10:12,993 PETER WANLESS: another really important dimension to this 228 00:10:12,994 --> 00:10:15,559 PETER WANLESS: that you must have given an awful lot of 229 00:10:15,560 --> 00:10:16,759 PETER WANLESS: thought to. 230 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,339 DENISE PRINGLE: We did spend a lot of time on this and it 231 00:10:19,340 --> 00:10:21,070 DENISE PRINGLE: really fell onto 232 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,489 DENISE PRINGLE: survivor speakers to do 233 00:10:26,490 --> 00:10:28,319 DENISE PRINGLE: a lot of that labour with Clare and I 234 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,319 DENISE PRINGLE: supporting them. Because, in order 235 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,739 DENISE PRINGLE: to make sure you're not doing tokenistic 236 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,249 DENISE PRINGLE: participation, you need to make sure that 237 00:10:38,250 --> 00:10:40,979 DENISE PRINGLE: you're not just using people as props or 238 00:10:40,980 --> 00:10:43,409 DENISE PRINGLE: creating a sense of, like you said, just 239 00:10:43,410 --> 00:10:45,059 DENISE PRINGLE: trying to 'shock factor' people or 240 00:10:45,060 --> 00:10:46,769 DENISE PRINGLE: sensationalise someone's life 241 00:10:46,770 --> 00:10:50,099 DENISE PRINGLE: experiences; because apart from 242 00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:52,109 DENISE PRINGLE: these abuse experiences, these are also 243 00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:54,239 DENISE PRINGLE: human beings and folks that have whole 244 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:55,949 DENISE PRINGLE: complete lives outside of it and we 245 00:10:55,950 --> 00:10:58,589 DENISE PRINGLE: wanted them to bring their entire selves 246 00:10:58,590 --> 00:11:01,319 DENISE PRINGLE: to the event. So Clare and I worked with 247 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,889 DENISE PRINGLE: them to identify which recommendations 248 00:11:04,890 --> 00:11:07,469 DENISE PRINGLE: and policy areas they were interested in, 249 00:11:07,470 --> 00:11:10,109 DENISE PRINGLE: how it aligned with their experiences, 250 00:11:10,110 --> 00:11:12,239 DENISE PRINGLE: what particular points they wanted to 251 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,239 DENISE PRINGLE: make, and how that correlated with who 252 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,069 DENISE PRINGLE: was in the room. 253 00:11:17,070 --> 00:11:19,559 DENISE PRINGLE: Then we did a lot of work making sure 254 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:21,749 DENISE PRINGLE: that we were helping to manage the 255 00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:24,149 DENISE PRINGLE: emotional boundaries of it as well. 256 00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:26,939 DENISE PRINGLE: Because although we never wanted to 257 00:11:26,940 --> 00:11:29,339 DENISE PRINGLE: censor people, we had to be aware that we 258 00:11:29,340 --> 00:11:32,039 DENISE PRINGLE: have a large amount of survivors speaking 259 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:33,599 DENISE PRINGLE: in the same room, and there would 260 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,849 DENISE PRINGLE: definitely be undisclosed survivors in 261 00:11:35,850 --> 00:11:38,939 DENISE PRINGLE: the audience, and we didn't want it to be 262 00:11:38,940 --> 00:11:42,119 DENISE PRINGLE: an an event where everyone was 263 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,159 DENISE PRINGLE: becoming retraumatised and put in a 264 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:45,509 DENISE PRINGLE: really fragile state. 265 00:11:45,510 --> 00:11:47,819 DENISE PRINGLE: So that was something we had to carefully 266 00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:49,799 DENISE PRINGLE: work through individually with each 267 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:51,239 DENISE PRINGLE: speaker. It wasn't something that could 268 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,399 DENISE PRINGLE: just be done with a blanket approach. 269 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,999 PETER WANLESS: Another thing which struck me on the day 270 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,979 PETER WANLESS: was — and I'm interested in the extent to 271 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:02,459 PETER WANLESS: which this was planned or it just emerged 272 00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:05,489 PETER WANLESS: — was, you know, we heard 273 00:12:05,490 --> 00:12:08,909 PETER WANLESS: about some really devastating 274 00:12:08,910 --> 00:12:12,449 PETER WANLESS: consequences and shattered lives, 275 00:12:12,450 --> 00:12:15,779 PETER WANLESS: but we also heard aspects 276 00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:19,049 PETER WANLESS: of hope and success 277 00:12:19,050 --> 00:12:20,999 PETER WANLESS: within some of the stories. 278 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,510 PETER WANLESS: So the testimony felt 279 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,769 PETER WANLESS: authentically associated with a range of 280 00:12:28,770 --> 00:12:31,769 PETER WANLESS: different characters, but also 281 00:12:31,770 --> 00:12:34,919 PETER WANLESS: when one listened to the collection 282 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,549 PETER WANLESS: of speakers together, it wasn't 283 00:12:38,550 --> 00:12:41,459 PETER WANLESS: unadulterated misery and 284 00:12:41,460 --> 00:12:43,469 PETER WANLESS: everything is wrong and hopeless. 285 00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:46,829 PETER WANLESS: Actually, within the 286 00:12:46,830 --> 00:12:49,079 PETER WANLESS: testimony that was delivered on the day, 287 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,672 PETER WANLESS: there were clues and examples that left 288 00:12:53,980 --> 00:12:57,679 PETER WANLESS: people at the event thinking, 289 00:12:57,680 --> 00:12:58,969 PETER WANLESS: 'actually, it doesn't have to be like 290 00:12:58,970 --> 00:12:59,970 PETER WANLESS: this.' 291 00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:01,980 DENISE PRINGLE: It doesn't have to just be 292 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,359 DENISE PRINGLE: pity and sadness. 293 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,509 DENISE PRINGLE: They have their place, but what we wanted 294 00:13:08,510 --> 00:13:10,099 DENISE PRINGLE: to focus on — and we said this right at 295 00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:12,079 DENISE PRINGLE: the beginning of the event — is, you 296 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:13,639 DENISE PRINGLE: know, bring your whole self, bring all 297 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,958 DENISE PRINGLE: the feelings of anger and and shock, but 298 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:19,309 DENISE PRINGLE: we want to inspire people to move through 299 00:13:19,310 --> 00:13:20,989 DENISE PRINGLE: that to action because that's what 300 00:13:20,990 --> 00:13:23,059 DENISE PRINGLE: survivors are asking for. 301 00:13:23,060 --> 00:13:24,739 DENISE PRINGLE: That's what they need. That's what they 302 00:13:24,740 --> 00:13:25,740 DENISE PRINGLE: want. 303 00:13:26,810 --> 00:13:30,829 DENISE PRINGLE: So that we're not just stuck in this 304 00:13:30,830 --> 00:13:33,469 DENISE PRINGLE: frozen state of being overwhelmed, which 305 00:13:33,470 --> 00:13:34,470 DENISE PRINGLE: is easy to be. 306 00:13:37,010 --> 00:13:40,039 DENISE PRINGLE: Part of being able to prioritise that 307 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,909 DENISE PRINGLE: hope and wholeness 308 00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:46,699 DENISE PRINGLE: comes down to really prioritising a 309 00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:49,189 DENISE PRINGLE: trauma-informed approach and making sure 310 00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:51,619 DENISE PRINGLE: that you're prioritising people's 311 00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:53,719 DENISE PRINGLE: strengths and their skills and their 312 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,989 DENISE PRINGLE: humanity and their wholeness, 313 00:13:56,990 --> 00:13:58,909 DENISE PRINGLE: rather than just focusing on what's 314 00:13:58,910 --> 00:14:01,129 DENISE PRINGLE: happened to them. So that was definitely 315 00:14:01,130 --> 00:14:03,469 DENISE PRINGLE: a lens that we put all of the planning 316 00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:04,470 DENISE PRINGLE: through, including 317 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,589 DENISE PRINGLE: all the speeches as well. 318 00:14:08,590 --> 00:14:11,559 CLARE KELLY: The other big thing on the actual day itself 319 00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:14,019 CLARE KELLY: was the planning Denise had done around 320 00:14:14,020 --> 00:14:16,899 CLARE KELLY: specific advocacy; having a safety 321 00:14:16,900 --> 00:14:19,149 CLARE KELLY: plan for each individual and having enough 322 00:14:19,150 --> 00:14:20,499 CLARE KELLY: support. 323 00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:22,119 CLARE KELLY: I think, again, that is something that can 324 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:23,409 CLARE KELLY: be underestimated. 325 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,309 CLARE KELLY: Denise is fabulous, but she is not ten 326 00:14:27,310 --> 00:14:30,399 CLARE KELLY: people in ten different rooms in ten 327 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,869 CLARE KELLY: different scenarios. 328 00:14:31,870 --> 00:14:34,389 CLARE KELLY: And we knew — thinking about this amount of 329 00:14:34,390 --> 00:14:37,239 CLARE KELLY: people that would require, appropriately so, 330 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,639 CLARE KELLY: support on the day — we needed support. 331 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,219 CLARE KELLY: So we went out to IICSA Changemakers and we 332 00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:44,739 CLARE KELLY: knew who had the right qualifications, who 333 00:14:44,740 --> 00:14:46,689 CLARE KELLY: had the right characteristics and skillset, 334 00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:49,269 CLARE KELLY: and was experienced at supporting people 335 00:14:49,270 --> 00:14:51,279 CLARE KELLY: with lived experiences in similar 336 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:52,569 CLARE KELLY: situations. 337 00:14:52,570 --> 00:14:53,979 CLARE KELLY: We don't think anyone had done a very 338 00:14:53,980 --> 00:14:56,859 CLARE KELLY: specific one like this, but Denise, you 339 00:14:56,860 --> 00:14:58,839 CLARE KELLY: ran sessions with them and you spent as much 340 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,359 CLARE KELLY: time with the advocates as you did with the 341 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:02,799 CLARE KELLY: survivors. I just think it'd be great to 342 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,839 CLARE KELLY: talk about that a bit as well. 343 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,792 DENISE PRINGLE: Every survivor speaker had a safety plan 344 00:15:08,830 --> 00:15:11,349 DENISE PRINGLE: that was done with me and in 345 00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:13,089 DENISE PRINGLE: collaboration with them, so they had full 346 00:15:13,090 --> 00:15:14,200 DENISE PRINGLE: transparency of it. 347 00:15:15,290 --> 00:15:16,969 DENISE PRINGLE: Every survivor speaker then had an 348 00:15:16,970 --> 00:15:19,039 DENISE PRINGLE: assigned advocate. As Clare said, this 349 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,409 DENISE PRINGLE: was a dedicated professional that had 350 00:15:21,410 --> 00:15:23,359 DENISE PRINGLE: experience in safeguarding and had been 351 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,269 DENISE PRINGLE: matched and aligned with what 352 00:15:26,270 --> 00:15:27,739 DENISE PRINGLE: that individual speaker would feel 353 00:15:27,740 --> 00:15:29,239 DENISE PRINGLE: comfortable with. And they were really 354 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:30,859 DENISE PRINGLE: their point of contact for the day. 355 00:15:30,860 --> 00:15:33,079 DENISE PRINGLE: So imagine it like a miniature 356 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,989 DENISE PRINGLE: safeguarding triage; so 357 00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:37,999 DENISE PRINGLE: we had all of the advocates with their 358 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,519 DENISE PRINGLE: speaker and they could escalate up to me 359 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,309 DENISE PRINGLE: and Clare if necessary, but then they 360 00:15:43,310 --> 00:15:46,339 DENISE PRINGLE: also had their own levels of awareness on 361 00:15:46,340 --> 00:15:48,469 DENISE PRINGLE: their individual speaker safety plan so 362 00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:50,989 DENISE PRINGLE: they could respond in the moment if 363 00:15:50,990 --> 00:15:51,990 DENISE PRINGLE: needed and necessary. 364 00:15:52,910 --> 00:15:54,619 DENISE PRINGLE: But we absolutely couldn't have done the 365 00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:57,229 DENISE PRINGLE: day without them. I think it would have 366 00:15:57,230 --> 00:16:00,769 DENISE PRINGLE: severely impacted survivor's 367 00:16:00,770 --> 00:16:03,919 DENISE PRINGLE: wellbeing and safety — not just physical 368 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,718 DENISE PRINGLE: safety, but psychological safety as well 369 00:16:05,719 --> 00:16:08,119 DENISE PRINGLE: — if they hadn't had that singular point 370 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:09,949 DENISE PRINGLE: of contact that they could trust was 371 00:16:09,950 --> 00:16:11,083 DENISE PRINGLE: solely there for them. 372 00:16:11,084 --> 00:16:13,759 CLARE KELLY: I think the other thing on the day that we 373 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,249 CLARE KELLY: found incredibly important was environment. 374 00:16:17,330 --> 00:16:19,999 CLARE KELLY: We'd done quite a few recces of the 375 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,579 CLARE KELLY: location. We knew it, we knew what was going 376 00:16:22,580 --> 00:16:24,919 CLARE KELLY: to be... how the layout was, and we could 377 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,379 CLARE KELLY: describe that to people early on so that we 378 00:16:27,380 --> 00:16:29,839 CLARE KELLY: could have discussions around does anything 379 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,209 CLARE KELLY: not feel right about that environment? 380 00:16:32,210 --> 00:16:34,669 CLARE KELLY: What can we change? What can we do? 381 00:16:34,670 --> 00:16:37,039 CLARE KELLY: But something that we learned on the day was 382 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:38,509 CLARE KELLY: that you have to be flexible to that and 383 00:16:38,510 --> 00:16:40,009 CLARE KELLY: that things can change. 384 00:16:40,010 --> 00:16:42,919 CLARE KELLY: Denise and I had worked up this huge risk 385 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,199 CLARE KELLY: register. Denise had thought of nearly every 386 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:45,608 CLARE KELLY: situation— 387 00:16:45,609 --> 00:16:47,600 DENISE PRINGLE: [Laughter.] Literally every scenario you 388 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,000 DENISE PRINGLE: think possibly could happen. 389 00:16:50,590 --> 00:16:51,889 CLARE KELLY: —Every scenario; fire, flood the lot. Peter, 390 00:16:51,890 --> 00:16:53,689 CLARE KELLY: you kindly signed it off for us and we had 391 00:16:53,690 --> 00:16:55,789 CLARE KELLY: this big conversation about, okay, these are 392 00:16:55,790 --> 00:16:57,409 CLARE KELLY: the steps that we've gone through and these 393 00:16:57,410 --> 00:16:59,119 CLARE KELLY: are the plans that we've got. 394 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:00,799 CLARE KELLY: And then on the day, I think it's important 395 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,389 CLARE KELLY: to share that things can change. 396 00:17:02,390 --> 00:17:03,859 CLARE KELLY: In our venue, which was a 397 00:17:03,860 --> 00:17:06,078 CLARE KELLY: community/charity-based venue, they had 398 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:07,969 CLARE KELLY: rented out some rooms to the NHS who were 399 00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:10,608 CLARE KELLY: doing blood donation and the venue had not 400 00:17:10,609 --> 00:17:11,959 CLARE KELLY: shared that with us. 401 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,479 CLARE KELLY: We knew instantly that might be a 402 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,300 CLARE KELLY: significant consideration for our survivor 403 00:17:17,301 --> 00:17:19,459 CLARE KELLY: speakers, but also our guests — we don't 404 00:17:19,460 --> 00:17:22,399 CLARE KELLY: know who has had negative experiences before 405 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,459 CLARE KELLY: and that might be a problem. We had to have 406 00:17:25,460 --> 00:17:27,409 CLARE KELLY: enough flexibility on the day to move to 407 00:17:27,410 --> 00:17:30,049 CLARE KELLY: that, respond to it, and I think the biggest 408 00:17:30,050 --> 00:17:31,969 CLARE KELLY: thing we did that people responded to was 409 00:17:31,970 --> 00:17:33,919 CLARE KELLY: being transparent about it. 410 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,649 PETER WANLESS: You talked about the whole design of the 411 00:17:36,650 --> 00:17:37,958 PETER WANLESS: event being trauma-informed. 412 00:17:40,550 --> 00:17:43,309 PETER WANLESS: I have lost count of the number of times 413 00:17:43,310 --> 00:17:46,459 PETER WANLESS: that I've been to events where 414 00:17:46,460 --> 00:17:50,149 PETER WANLESS: someone stands up at the beginning — and 415 00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:51,949 PETER WANLESS: the content is going to be about child 416 00:17:51,950 --> 00:17:54,919 PETER WANLESS: sexual abuse — and someone says 'there 417 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,469 PETER WANLESS: could be some content here which is 418 00:17:57,470 --> 00:17:59,959 PETER WANLESS: relevant to child sexual abuse, so I'm 419 00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,049 PETER WANLESS: just giving you a warning.' Now, when 420 00:18:03,050 --> 00:18:06,019 PETER WANLESS: you say 'trauma-informed' it is so 421 00:18:06,020 --> 00:18:08,179 PETER WANLESS: much more than that. 422 00:18:08,180 --> 00:18:09,529 PETER WANLESS: I haven't given you notice, Denise, that 423 00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:12,319 PETER WANLESS: I'm going to ask you this question but the 424 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,469 PETER WANLESS: remarks which you gave at the start of the 425 00:18:15,470 --> 00:18:18,259 PETER WANLESS: conference — could you say a little bit 426 00:18:18,260 --> 00:18:19,849 PETER WANLESS: more about those? 427 00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:22,000 DENISE PRINGLE: This is the danger with the 428 00:18:23,390 --> 00:18:25,399 DENISE PRINGLE: phrase 'trauma-informed' is that as it 429 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,249 DENISE PRINGLE: gets more well-known, it can also then 430 00:18:28,250 --> 00:18:31,429 DENISE PRINGLE: become tokenised itself and be used 431 00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:32,959 DENISE PRINGLE: in situations that aren't actually 432 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:33,960 DENISE PRINGLE: trauma-informed. 433 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,979 DENISE PRINGLE: There isn't really one specific common 434 00:18:36,980 --> 00:18:38,719 DENISE PRINGLE: definition, people tend to 435 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:41,659 DENISE PRINGLE: slightly mould it depending on their 436 00:18:41,660 --> 00:18:43,639 DENISE PRINGLE: organisation and their needs, but there 437 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,129 DENISE PRINGLE: tends to be five or six cornerstones and 438 00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:48,319 DENISE PRINGLE: pillars of trauma-informed practice that 439 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:49,819 DENISE PRINGLE: people work with. 440 00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:51,769 DENISE PRINGLE: For Clare and I when we were planning the 441 00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:55,159 DENISE PRINGLE: event, it was: safety, choice, 442 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,609 DENISE PRINGLE: collaboration, trust and cultural equity. 443 00:18:58,610 --> 00:19:01,759 DENISE PRINGLE: So everything we were doing had 444 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,729 DENISE PRINGLE: to prioritise those principles, or I 445 00:19:04,730 --> 00:19:07,429 DENISE PRINGLE: had to look at what I was asking of 446 00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:09,349 DENISE PRINGLE: people or how I was talking to them and 447 00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:11,509 DENISE PRINGLE: say, how am I prioritising these things? 448 00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:13,219 DENISE PRINGLE: What are the power dynamics like? 449 00:19:13,220 --> 00:19:15,169 DENISE PRINGLE: Are we gatekeeping? Are we hoarding 450 00:19:15,170 --> 00:19:17,299 DENISE PRINGLE: information for no reason? 451 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:19,069 DENISE PRINGLE: And I really wanted to make sure that 452 00:19:19,070 --> 00:19:22,069 DENISE PRINGLE: came across in the opening of 453 00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:24,049 DENISE PRINGLE: the event, because we knew we had to have 454 00:19:24,050 --> 00:19:25,459 DENISE PRINGLE: a very boundaried event. 455 00:19:25,460 --> 00:19:27,259 DENISE PRINGLE: We knew that for the safety of the 456 00:19:27,260 --> 00:19:29,329 DENISE PRINGLE: delegates and the speakers. 457 00:19:29,330 --> 00:19:30,979 DENISE PRINGLE: But like you said, we didn't want to just 458 00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:32,599 DENISE PRINGLE: stand up and say, 'here's a trigger 459 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,189 DENISE PRINGLE: warning', because although they 460 00:19:34,190 --> 00:19:36,079 DENISE PRINGLE: definitely have their place and some 461 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,629 DENISE PRINGLE: people do find them very helpful, we 462 00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:41,839 DENISE PRINGLE: needed the understanding there as well 463 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,719 DENISE PRINGLE: so delegates could understand the 464 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,299 DENISE PRINGLE: intention and the space and what people 465 00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:49,549 DENISE PRINGLE: needed, so there wasn't this us versus 466 00:19:49,550 --> 00:19:52,459 DENISE PRINGLE: them dynamic; survivors [on] one side, 467 00:19:52,460 --> 00:19:53,839 DENISE PRINGLE: delegates [on] the other side. 468 00:19:55,090 --> 00:19:57,339 DENISE PRINGLE: Because as fantastic as practitioners 469 00:19:57,340 --> 00:19:59,469 DENISE PRINGLE: are, sometimes we distance ourselves from 470 00:19:59,470 --> 00:20:01,296 DENISE PRINGLE: the emotion of an event because 471 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,099 DENISE PRINGLE: it feels safer or because we don't want 472 00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:07,919 DENISE PRINGLE: to seem emotional in our professional 473 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:08,920 DENISE PRINGLE: lives. 474 00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:11,249 DENISE PRINGLE: I can't remember the exact words I said, 475 00:20:11,250 --> 00:20:13,439 DENISE PRINGLE: but I think I was trying to speak to that 476 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,359 DENISE PRINGLE: at the beginning and encourage people to 477 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:18,269 DENISE PRINGLE: be authentic and present, but also 478 00:20:18,270 --> 00:20:20,069 DENISE PRINGLE: to remember that we're not here just to 479 00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:21,839 DENISE PRINGLE: be garnering pity. 480 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,869 DENISE PRINGLE: Survivors don't need people to come 481 00:20:24,870 --> 00:20:26,989 DENISE PRINGLE: and tell them, 'I'm so sorry'. 482 00:20:26,990 --> 00:20:28,529 DENISE PRINGLE: They want to hear what you're going to do 483 00:20:28,530 --> 00:20:29,530 DENISE PRINGLE: about it. 484 00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:32,639 DENISE PRINGLE: And, by the way, these themes are going 485 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,709 DENISE PRINGLE: to come up, so take care of yourselves, 486 00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:37,379 DENISE PRINGLE: but, full transparency, this is what 487 00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:39,029 DENISE PRINGLE: we're talking about. 488 00:20:39,030 --> 00:20:42,029 PETER WANLESS: And I'm used to going to events and 489 00:20:42,030 --> 00:20:45,059 PETER WANLESS: going away saying, 'oh, my head's 490 00:20:45,060 --> 00:20:47,549 PETER WANLESS: buzzing with all these ideas and thoughts' 491 00:20:47,550 --> 00:20:50,039 PETER WANLESS: and I'm quite a kind of task-based person 492 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,709 PETER WANLESS: and can relate to the idea of, you know, I 493 00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:55,709 PETER WANLESS: need to go and lie down and have a think 494 00:20:55,710 --> 00:20:57,149 PETER WANLESS: or whatever, because there's so many thoughts 495 00:20:57,150 --> 00:20:59,939 PETER WANLESS: going on in my head. Whereas I came out of 496 00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:02,189 PETER WANLESS: this experience with so many things going 497 00:21:02,190 --> 00:21:04,259 PETER WANLESS: on in my heart and my soul. 498 00:21:04,260 --> 00:21:06,749 PETER WANLESS: And, you know, I've said that it's one of 499 00:21:06,750 --> 00:21:09,539 PETER WANLESS: the most memorable days of my time at the 500 00:21:09,540 --> 00:21:10,949 PETER WANLESS: NSPCC. 501 00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:13,259 PETER WANLESS: I left packed full of... 502 00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:14,939 PETER WANLESS: I've said I was concerned. 503 00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:16,349 PETER WANLESS: I was horrified. 504 00:21:16,350 --> 00:21:17,879 PETER WANLESS: I was inspired. 505 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,379 PETER WANLESS: I was angry. 506 00:21:19,380 --> 00:21:20,999 PETER WANLESS: I was impatient. 507 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,879 PETER WANLESS: I was in awe of the speakers. 508 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,122 PETER WANLESS: There were all these feelings going on, 509 00:21:25,123 --> 00:21:27,299 PETER WANLESS: and I had to— Rather than going straight 510 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:30,479 PETER WANLESS: on the tube, I took myself off for a 511 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,359 PETER WANLESS: walk and that really helped. 512 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:35,999 PETER WANLESS: But that was me. 513 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,029 PETER WANLESS: How was it for the 514 00:21:39,030 --> 00:21:41,969 PETER WANLESS: speakers in particular and 515 00:21:41,970 --> 00:21:43,656 PETER WANLESS: the advocates and for your selves 516 00:21:45,450 --> 00:21:47,669 PETER WANLESS: subsequent to the event? Because I think 517 00:21:47,670 --> 00:21:49,349 PETER WANLESS: you've got quite a lot to share there in 518 00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:52,059 PETER WANLESS: terms of what we learnt, what we expected 519 00:21:52,060 --> 00:21:53,549 PETER WANLESS: and maybe what we didn't expect. 520 00:21:54,710 --> 00:21:57,079 DENISE PRINGLE: You can never do any kind of 521 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,119 DENISE PRINGLE: participation or event like this without 522 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:00,679 DENISE PRINGLE: there being a cost. 523 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,709 DENISE PRINGLE: That's just the reality of this work. 524 00:22:03,710 --> 00:22:05,869 DENISE PRINGLE: But what's important is making sure that 525 00:22:05,870 --> 00:22:07,639 DENISE PRINGLE: you're transparent and giving enough 526 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,129 DENISE PRINGLE: information that survivors are making 527 00:22:10,130 --> 00:22:12,679 DENISE PRINGLE: informed consent so they can balance that 528 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,279 DENISE PRINGLE: cost, sacrifice versus outcome. 529 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,129 DENISE PRINGLE: So in the immediate aftermath of 530 00:22:19,130 --> 00:22:22,009 DENISE PRINGLE: the event, we had not only that being 531 00:22:22,010 --> 00:22:24,469 DENISE PRINGLE: explored by speakers, but then the 532 00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:26,793 DENISE PRINGLE: physical and emotional repercussions; 533 00:22:26,794 --> 00:22:29,779 DENISE PRINGLE: because being visible as 534 00:22:29,780 --> 00:22:31,189 DENISE PRINGLE: a survivor, talking about your 535 00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:34,039 DENISE PRINGLE: experiences, it affects you 536 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,809 DENISE PRINGLE: physically, it affects you emotionally, 537 00:22:35,810 --> 00:22:37,100 DENISE PRINGLE: for some people it affects you spiritually, 538 00:22:37,101 --> 00:22:39,499 DENISE PRINGLE: all in individual ways. 539 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:41,449 DENISE PRINGLE: And it's also not something— I think 540 00:22:41,450 --> 00:22:42,769 DENISE PRINGLE: actually someone said this in one of 541 00:22:42,770 --> 00:22:45,649 DENISE PRINGLE: their speeches, that it doesn't nice and 542 00:22:45,650 --> 00:22:48,499 DENISE PRINGLE: neatly fall into a nine-to-five work 543 00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:50,591 DENISE PRINGLE: pattern. You know, these are symptoms and 544 00:22:52,250 --> 00:22:55,459 DENISE PRINGLE: consequences that unfold over a series 545 00:22:55,460 --> 00:22:56,709 DENISE PRINGLE: of days and weeks. 546 00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:59,569 DENISE PRINGLE: So the period of time after the 547 00:22:59,570 --> 00:23:02,899 DENISE PRINGLE: event was as important as the prep. 548 00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:05,689 DENISE PRINGLE: We had debriefs, stabilisation time, a 549 00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:07,249 DENISE PRINGLE: lot of check-ins. 550 00:23:07,250 --> 00:23:10,249 DENISE PRINGLE: It was really time to help speakers 551 00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:12,109 DENISE PRINGLE: and survivors route back into their 552 00:23:12,110 --> 00:23:13,789 DENISE PRINGLE: lives, route back into 553 00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:17,629 DENISE PRINGLE: how they feel grounded and stable to make 554 00:23:17,630 --> 00:23:19,969 DENISE PRINGLE: sure that this didn't completely derail 555 00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:23,449 DENISE PRINGLE: them from their present life. 556 00:23:23,450 --> 00:23:26,539 DENISE PRINGLE: But we had no one regret taking 557 00:23:26,540 --> 00:23:27,829 DENISE PRINGLE: part in the event. 558 00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:30,169 DENISE PRINGLE: No survivor came back and said, 'I wish I 559 00:23:30,170 --> 00:23:32,449 DENISE PRINGLE: hadn't done that. The cost wasn't worth 560 00:23:32,450 --> 00:23:34,630 DENISE PRINGLE: it for me.' And that, 561 00:23:36,030 --> 00:23:38,069 DENISE PRINGLE: for me, is important; that feels worth 562 00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:38,549 DENISE PRINGLE: it. 563 00:23:38,550 --> 00:23:41,519 PETER WANLESS: And there's something special about the 564 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,189 PETER WANLESS: coalition that is the Changemakers in this 565 00:23:44,190 --> 00:23:46,009 PETER WANLESS: context as well, isn't there. 566 00:23:46,010 --> 00:23:47,819 PETER WANLESS: So this wasn't the conference which was 567 00:23:47,820 --> 00:23:50,879 PETER WANLESS: being put on to advance the interests 568 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,159 PETER WANLESS: of any individual or organisation. 569 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,649 PETER WANLESS: As you said earlier on, it was to create a 570 00:23:55,650 --> 00:23:58,439 PETER WANLESS: platform to amplify the insights and 571 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,399 PETER WANLESS: experiences of people who'd experienced 572 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,559 PETER WANLESS: child sexual abuse. And that was something 573 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,769 PETER WANLESS: which united the 67 organisations 574 00:24:07,770 --> 00:24:09,509 PETER WANLESS: in their determination for things to be 575 00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:12,929 PETER WANLESS: better. So, the collective endeavour feels 576 00:24:12,930 --> 00:24:15,839 PETER WANLESS: quite special actually in this way of 577 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,869 PETER WANLESS: working, which is another interesting 578 00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:20,879 PETER WANLESS: thing perhaps just to reflect on. 579 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,789 CLARE KELLY: I think it is. We always felt this 580 00:24:23,790 --> 00:24:26,099 CLARE KELLY: background of support from the Changemakers. 581 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:28,709 CLARE KELLY: We'd had to do some really careful pitching 582 00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:30,299 CLARE KELLY: in the early days when we were planning the 583 00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:32,339 CLARE KELLY: event of 'we want to do this, what do you 584 00:24:32,340 --> 00:24:33,809 CLARE KELLY: think' and taking in views. 585 00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:36,449 CLARE KELLY: But then another thing that we had was space 586 00:24:36,450 --> 00:24:38,009 CLARE KELLY: to create. 587 00:24:38,010 --> 00:24:39,419 CLARE KELLY: I remember the early days when we came to 588 00:24:39,420 --> 00:24:41,909 CLARE KELLY: you and we said, 'We've got this idea, it's 589 00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:44,369 CLARE KELLY: a little bit different, there's an awful lot 590 00:24:44,370 --> 00:24:46,997 CLARE KELLY: of risk, but will you trust us to do it?' 591 00:24:46,998 --> 00:24:48,359 CLARE KELLY: And you did. 592 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:50,369 CLARE KELLY: And I think that's an incredibly important 593 00:24:50,370 --> 00:24:52,769 CLARE KELLY: thing when you have got trust amongst a 594 00:24:52,770 --> 00:24:55,049 CLARE KELLY: group of people and can say, okay, it might 595 00:24:55,050 --> 00:24:57,089 CLARE KELLY: be risky, but it's going to be worth it as 596 00:24:57,090 --> 00:24:58,469 CLARE KELLY: long as you can show me the safety 597 00:24:58,470 --> 00:25:00,839 CLARE KELLY: mechanisms and that everything is being done 598 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,879 CLARE KELLY: well, it's worth doing. 599 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,369 CLARE KELLY: And I think that was always in our mind as 600 00:25:05,370 --> 00:25:06,159 CLARE KELLY: we worked through, wasn't it? 601 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,328 DENISE PRINGLE: Yeah, absolutely. 602 00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:14,289 DENISE PRINGLE: You need people at the top to be able 603 00:25:14,290 --> 00:25:17,139 DENISE PRINGLE: to trust and invest in your ideas for 604 00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:18,789 DENISE PRINGLE: it to come to life. 605 00:25:18,790 --> 00:25:21,849 DENISE PRINGLE: But then likewise, I think, Clare, we 606 00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:23,919 DENISE PRINGLE: needed the trust with each other as well 607 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,509 DENISE PRINGLE: because we were managing so much. 608 00:25:25,510 --> 00:25:28,269 DENISE PRINGLE: We needed to be able to feel the support 609 00:25:28,270 --> 00:25:29,979 DENISE PRINGLE: and trust together and then have all the 610 00:25:29,980 --> 00:25:32,409 DENISE PRINGLE: Changemakers as well. All of the 611 00:25:32,410 --> 00:25:34,089 DENISE PRINGLE: advocates who were Changemakers were 612 00:25:34,090 --> 00:25:36,969 DENISE PRINGLE: phenomenal and their support 613 00:25:36,970 --> 00:25:40,719 DENISE PRINGLE: was absolutely integral. 614 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,349 DENISE PRINGLE: But all of the work that we did is, 615 00:25:44,350 --> 00:25:47,469 DENISE PRINGLE: without minimising our own input, 616 00:25:47,470 --> 00:25:50,829 DENISE PRINGLE: it's nothing compared to the amount of 617 00:25:50,830 --> 00:25:53,709 DENISE PRINGLE: strength and labour that the survivors 618 00:25:53,710 --> 00:25:56,739 DENISE PRINGLE: put in to attend the event, to speak, 619 00:25:56,740 --> 00:25:58,359 DENISE PRINGLE: to deal with the aftermath. 620 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:01,209 DENISE PRINGLE: So, for me, even though it was a lot of 621 00:26:01,210 --> 00:26:03,999 DENISE PRINGLE: work, I just think it was all worth it to 622 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,419 DENISE PRINGLE: be able to facilitate that opportunity 623 00:26:07,420 --> 00:26:09,700 DENISE PRINGLE: for survivors and for Changemakers to be 624 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,579 DENISE PRINGLE: there with them and say, we're here with 625 00:26:12,580 --> 00:26:13,580 DENISE PRINGLE: you. 626 00:26:14,020 --> 00:26:15,339 DENISE PRINGLE: Absolutely worth it. 627 00:26:15,340 --> 00:26:17,192 PETER WANLESS: So, just to to conclude: if you 628 00:26:20,780 --> 00:26:23,659 PETER WANLESS: were to be giving advice 629 00:26:23,660 --> 00:26:26,659 PETER WANLESS: to listeners who are thinking 630 00:26:26,660 --> 00:26:29,007 PETER WANLESS: of doing work with victims and survivors, 631 00:26:29,008 --> 00:26:31,549 PETER WANLESS: what would you say? 632 00:26:31,550 --> 00:26:33,319 DENISE PRINGLE: I suppose I want to draw it back to what 633 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:34,879 DENISE PRINGLE: I said at the beginning, that with lived 634 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,769 DENISE PRINGLE: experience and working with victims and 635 00:26:36,770 --> 00:26:38,779 DENISE PRINGLE: survivors, it's never a tick box. 636 00:26:38,780 --> 00:26:40,309 DENISE PRINGLE: It's never going to be something that you 637 00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:42,259 DENISE PRINGLE: get absolutely right or you're going to 638 00:26:42,260 --> 00:26:43,699 DENISE PRINGLE: nail every time. 639 00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:45,259 DENISE PRINGLE: There's always going to be risk and 640 00:26:45,260 --> 00:26:48,349 DENISE PRINGLE: flexibility and nuance and intersection 641 00:26:48,350 --> 00:26:50,622 DENISE PRINGLE: with other issues and vulnerabilities, so 642 00:26:52,220 --> 00:26:53,839 DENISE PRINGLE: be alive to that. 643 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,179 DENISE PRINGLE: Don't strive for perfection. 644 00:26:56,180 --> 00:26:58,519 DENISE PRINGLE: Strive for safety, humanity, 645 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,489 DENISE PRINGLE: trauma-informed working; because that's 646 00:27:01,490 --> 00:27:04,039 DENISE PRINGLE: a more realistic outlook when you're 647 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,949 DENISE PRINGLE: approaching this work. 648 00:27:05,950 --> 00:27:06,653 DENISE PRINGLE: Clare, what about you? 649 00:27:06,654 --> 00:27:09,350 CLARE KELLY: I would ask yourself a question: is 650 00:27:10,730 --> 00:27:12,949 CLARE KELLY: what you're about to do actually going to 651 00:27:12,950 --> 00:27:15,709 CLARE KELLY: move things on for future survivors and 652 00:27:15,710 --> 00:27:18,589 CLARE KELLY: victims? And if it is, if you can 653 00:27:18,590 --> 00:27:20,719 CLARE KELLY: genuinely say to yourself, 'yes, it will,' 654 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,179 CLARE KELLY: then it is worth your commitment, time and 655 00:27:23,180 --> 00:27:25,549 CLARE KELLY: energy. And if you put that in, know that 656 00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:27,799 CLARE KELLY: the survivors are putting a hundred fold 657 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,649 CLARE KELLY: more in. Then go for it, embrace 658 00:27:30,650 --> 00:27:33,589 CLARE KELLY: it, because it has such significant 659 00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:36,439 CLARE KELLY: impact. You know, for the event, we had a 660 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,079 CLARE KELLY: booklet that we gave out at the end, which 661 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,439 CLARE KELLY: had my wording that we'd use from IICSA 662 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,449 CLARE KELLY: Changemakers, and then it was backed up by 663 00:27:44,450 --> 00:27:46,939 CLARE KELLY: survivor experience on every single point. 664 00:27:46,940 --> 00:27:49,099 CLARE KELLY: I think I'd given those speeches at events 665 00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:51,829 CLARE KELLY: on those points so many times and they'd 666 00:27:51,830 --> 00:27:54,139 CLARE KELLY: meant something; but back it up with 667 00:27:54,140 --> 00:27:56,059 CLARE KELLY: survivor experience and it lands. 668 00:27:56,060 --> 00:27:59,149 CLARE KELLY: The message is so much clearer and easier 669 00:27:59,150 --> 00:28:01,729 CLARE KELLY: for people to feel and experience, and like 670 00:28:01,730 --> 00:28:04,189 CLARE KELLY: you said, Peter, it hits differently when 671 00:28:04,190 --> 00:28:06,079 CLARE KELLY: you get it like that, so it will move 672 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,339 CLARE KELLY: positions on. 673 00:28:07,340 --> 00:28:09,379 CLARE KELLY: I think the other really important thing to 674 00:28:09,380 --> 00:28:12,259 CLARE KELLY: consider is that fear can creep up 675 00:28:12,260 --> 00:28:13,489 CLARE KELLY: in this area. 676 00:28:13,490 --> 00:28:16,489 CLARE KELLY: People can overthink and get 677 00:28:16,490 --> 00:28:19,339 CLARE KELLY: so caught up and be afraid of taking 678 00:28:19,340 --> 00:28:20,959 CLARE KELLY: this step to make sure that they are 679 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,329 CLARE KELLY: including survivor voice. 680 00:28:23,330 --> 00:28:25,939 CLARE KELLY: I would really urge people to put that fear 681 00:28:25,940 --> 00:28:28,879 CLARE KELLY: aside, and if anything turn into your risk 682 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,669 CLARE KELLY: management. You can lower your own fear and 683 00:28:31,670 --> 00:28:34,489 CLARE KELLY: anxiety by managing things properly, looking 684 00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:37,279 CLARE KELLY: for appropriate mitigations to those issues. 685 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,979 CLARE KELLY: So use the fear that you had but we would 686 00:28:39,980 --> 00:28:42,589 CLARE KELLY: urge please go for it, overcome that fear 687 00:28:42,590 --> 00:28:44,899 CLARE KELLY: and turn it into action, because that will 688 00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:46,279 CLARE KELLY: actually help people. 689 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,919 DENISE PRINGLE: Sometimes that fear can be part of how we 690 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:49,949 DENISE PRINGLE: 'other' survivors. It's sometimes 691 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,049 DENISE PRINGLE: referred to as 'othering' where you push 692 00:28:54,050 --> 00:28:55,970 DENISE PRINGLE: and separate a group of people. 693 00:28:57,140 --> 00:28:59,959 DENISE PRINGLE: When we are afraid to connect and afraid 694 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:02,869 DENISE PRINGLE: to work with, we can 'other'. 695 00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:06,199 DENISE PRINGLE: So think of it as 696 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,599 DENISE PRINGLE: a great piece of advocacy and activism as 697 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,209 DENISE PRINGLE: well. When you're embracing and doing 698 00:29:11,210 --> 00:29:12,228 DENISE PRINGLE: risk management properly, you're 699 00:29:13,340 --> 00:29:15,199 DENISE PRINGLE: connecting and you're making sure that 700 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,699 DENISE PRINGLE: you're breaking down that sense of 701 00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:18,709 DENISE PRINGLE: othering and really treating people and 702 00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:19,240 DENISE PRINGLE: including them. 703 00:29:19,241 --> 00:29:22,189 CLARE KELLY: Don't underestimate the importance of 704 00:29:22,190 --> 00:29:24,139 CLARE KELLY: skill in this area. 705 00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:25,399 CLARE KELLY: It is paramount. 706 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,679 CLARE KELLY: It is not safe to do it without it. 707 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,159 CLARE KELLY: You need that expertise. 708 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,669 CLARE KELLY: But even if you personally don't have that 709 00:29:31,670 --> 00:29:34,399 CLARE KELLY: expertise, be open to working with someone 710 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,859 CLARE KELLY: who does and they will share with you and 711 00:29:36,860 --> 00:29:38,509 CLARE KELLY: they will help you carry out things in a 712 00:29:38,510 --> 00:29:40,999 CLARE KELLY: safe and appropriate way and you will be all 713 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,349 CLARE KELLY: the better for it. 714 00:29:42,350 --> 00:29:45,409 PETER WANLESS: Denise, where do you go about learning 715 00:29:45,410 --> 00:29:47,239 PETER WANLESS: those skills then? 716 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,209 PETER WANLESS: So if I come out of this call and 717 00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:53,179 PETER WANLESS: I think, 'yeah, that's something I'd like 718 00:29:53,180 --> 00:29:54,320 PETER WANLESS: to get better at', 719 00:29:57,860 --> 00:29:59,209 PETER WANLESS: what would I need to do? 720 00:29:59,210 --> 00:30:01,219 DENISE PRINGLE: I mean, I had an advantage because most 721 00:30:01,220 --> 00:30:03,079 DENISE PRINGLE: of my career I've worked in the violence 722 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,409 DENISE PRINGLE: against women and girls sector. 723 00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:07,279 DENISE PRINGLE: So I've been frontline, I've 724 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,169 DENISE PRINGLE: worked in training, I've worked in 725 00:30:09,170 --> 00:30:11,629 DENISE PRINGLE: digital technologies, so I've had the 726 00:30:11,630 --> 00:30:13,109 DENISE PRINGLE: benefit of a lot of training 727 00:30:14,660 --> 00:30:16,519 DENISE PRINGLE: in my career. 728 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,019 DENISE PRINGLE: It's definitely not something that you 729 00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:20,479 DENISE PRINGLE: should bulldoze into and make assumptions 730 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,839 DENISE PRINGLE: of, but you can start learning 731 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,036 DENISE PRINGLE: about trauma-informed practice; I can't 732 00:30:28,580 --> 00:30:31,489 DENISE PRINGLE: emphasise that enough of how critical 733 00:30:31,490 --> 00:30:34,579 DENISE PRINGLE: it is to safe and meaningful work 734 00:30:34,580 --> 00:30:35,989 DENISE PRINGLE: across the board. 735 00:30:35,990 --> 00:30:39,889 DENISE PRINGLE: Also understanding intersectionality; 736 00:30:39,890 --> 00:30:41,749 DENISE PRINGLE: again, it's something that I think 737 00:30:43,670 --> 00:30:45,559 DENISE PRINGLE: more people are becoming aware of, quite 738 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,819 DENISE PRINGLE: rightly, but you need to have an in-depth 739 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,759 DENISE PRINGLE: courage and willingness to 740 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,409 DENISE PRINGLE: explore it because it's not something 741 00:30:54,410 --> 00:30:55,939 DENISE PRINGLE: that you can just tick off. 742 00:30:55,940 --> 00:30:58,219 DENISE PRINGLE: So those would be my two ports of call. 743 00:30:58,220 --> 00:31:00,019 DENISE PRINGLE: I would say dive into trauma-informed 744 00:31:00,020 --> 00:31:02,869 DENISE PRINGLE: working, dive into learning about 745 00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:04,729 DENISE PRINGLE: intersectionality and best practice with 746 00:31:04,730 --> 00:31:06,739 DENISE PRINGLE: that, and then that's your skillset that 747 00:31:06,740 --> 00:31:09,230 DENISE PRINGLE: then would help bolster the work. 748 00:31:11,420 --> 00:31:12,949 PETER WANLESS: Excellent. Very good. 749 00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:16,579 PETER WANLESS: Well, thank you very much to both of you 750 00:31:16,580 --> 00:31:20,059 PETER WANLESS: for working so carefully 751 00:31:20,060 --> 00:31:23,209 PETER WANLESS: with our lived experience speakers 752 00:31:23,210 --> 00:31:25,579 PETER WANLESS: and with the Changemakers to put on such a 753 00:31:25,580 --> 00:31:28,669 PETER WANLESS: memorable and important day. 754 00:31:28,670 --> 00:31:32,779 PETER WANLESS: And, as we have this conversation, 755 00:31:32,780 --> 00:31:35,779 PETER WANLESS: I have seen and 756 00:31:35,780 --> 00:31:38,629 PETER WANLESS: heard from at least one 757 00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:41,529 PETER WANLESS: government minister who has 758 00:31:41,530 --> 00:31:44,409 PETER WANLESS: reflected on what they have been told 759 00:31:44,410 --> 00:31:46,569 PETER WANLESS: happened on this day and how important it 760 00:31:46,570 --> 00:31:49,029 PETER WANLESS: is to their thinking. 761 00:31:49,030 --> 00:31:51,969 PETER WANLESS: And they're 762 00:31:51,970 --> 00:31:53,469 PETER WANLESS: not the only ones, so we need to follow 763 00:31:53,470 --> 00:31:56,199 PETER WANLESS: through and follow up on that. 764 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,139 PETER WANLESS: But there's definitely work to 765 00:31:59,140 --> 00:32:02,079 PETER WANLESS: be done that this 766 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,079 PETER WANLESS: day has created something of 767 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,869 PETER WANLESS: a reset on. 768 00:32:07,870 --> 00:32:11,009 PETER WANLESS: So, powerful and important work, 769 00:32:11,010 --> 00:32:13,889 PETER WANLESS: but it doesn't happen without a huge 770 00:32:13,890 --> 00:32:15,449 PETER WANLESS: amount of preparation, and as we've 771 00:32:15,450 --> 00:32:18,389 PETER WANLESS: reflected, a huge amount of aftercare, 772 00:32:18,390 --> 00:32:21,419 PETER WANLESS: never mind all the diligence 773 00:32:21,420 --> 00:32:23,279 PETER WANLESS: that was was applied on the day. 774 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,339 PETER WANLESS: So thanks for sharing all of that with 775 00:32:26,340 --> 00:32:29,759 PETER WANLESS: us on this podcast and 776 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:30,760 PETER WANLESS: on we go. 777 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:32,410 DENISE PRINGLE: Thanks, Peter. 778 00:32:32,411 --> 00:32:33,919 CLARE KELLY: Thank you, Peter. 779 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:34,920 CLARE KELLY: Thank you, Denise. 780 00:32:38,690 --> 00:32:41,059 INTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning 781 00:32:41,060 --> 00:32:42,349 INTRO: podcast. 782 00:32:42,350 --> 00:32:44,989 INTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content 783 00:32:44,990 --> 00:32:47,659 INTRO: was up to date but the world of safeguarding and 784 00:32:47,660 --> 00:32:48,782 INTRO: child protection is ever-changing. 785 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,069 INTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current 786 00:32:52,070 --> 00:32:54,769 INTRO: safeguarding and child protection training, 787 00:32:54,770 --> 00:32:57,769 INTRO: information or resources, please visit 788 00:32:57,770 --> 00:33:00,243 INTRO: our website for professionals at 789 00:33:00,244 --> 00:33:01,244 INTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.