PRODUCER: This episode discusses practitioners'
PRODUCER: experiences of working with adult
PRODUCER: victim-survivors of child sexual abuse.
PRODUCER: Whilst listening, please be mindful of your own
PRODUCER: wellbeing and prioritise taking a break if you
PRODUCER: need to.
INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child
INTRO: protection from inside and outside of the
INTRO: organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection
INTRO: and share good practice on how we can all work
INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young
INTRO: people safe.
PETER WANLESS: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.
PETER WANLESS: I am Peter Wanless, I'm the Chief
PETER WANLESS: Executive of the NSPCC and also
PETER WANLESS: the Chair of the IICSA Changemakers,
PETER WANLESS: IICSA being the Independent Inquiry into
PETER WANLESS: Child Sexual Abuse.
PETER WANLESS: Now, back in the autumn of 2022,
PETER WANLESS: the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual
PETER WANLESS: Abuse produced its final report and
PETER WANLESS: recommendations. This was a culmination of
PETER WANLESS: seven years of work
PETER WANLESS: at a cost of a quarter of a £1 billion,
PETER WANLESS: and an exercise which took testimony from
PETER WANLESS: over 7,000 victims and survivors
PETER WANLESS: of child sexual abuse.
PETER WANLESS: But the way these public inquiries work,
PETER WANLESS: there isn't an automatic implementation
PETER WANLESS: mechanism associated with the
PETER WANLESS: recommendations. The recommendations go to
PETER WANLESS: the government and who knows what might
PETER WANLESS: happen next.
PETER WANLESS: So, the authors of the IICSA reports
PETER WANLESS: convened a meeting of interested,
PETER WANLESS: like-minded individuals and organisations
PETER WANLESS: to reflect on what they had discovered,
PETER WANLESS: just to pose the question 'what's going to
PETER WANLESS: happen next?' I was one of the people
PETER WANLESS: fortunate enough to be at that meeting
PETER WANLESS: and we reflected on the
PETER WANLESS: huge scale of
PETER WANLESS: change that was going to be required
PETER WANLESS: if the recommendations that IICSA had come
PETER WANLESS: up with were going to be realised.
PETER WANLESS: We all looked at one another and everyone
PETER WANLESS: looked at everyone else and thought, well,
PETER WANLESS: what are we going to do about this?
PETER WANLESS: And I thought, if not
PETER WANLESS: us, then who?
PETER WANLESS: And if not now, then when?
PETER WANLESS: And between us, we agreed that we should
PETER WANLESS: convene a collective group of
PETER WANLESS: organisations really to keep
PETER WANLESS: the IICSA recommendation flames
PETER WANLESS: alive for three really important reasons.
PETER WANLESS: The first was that there really did need
PETER WANLESS: to be a step change in the statutory
PETER WANLESS: framework within which these
PETER WANLESS: issues are considered.
PETER WANLESS: Secondly, there's all sorts of things
PETER WANLESS: which organisations could be doing to
PETER WANLESS: improve the consistency of their
PETER WANLESS: safeguarding and protection of children
PETER WANLESS: and young people at risk of child sexual
PETER WANLESS: abuse. And thirdly, we felt that in
PETER WANLESS: particular the voices and perspectives of
PETER WANLESS: all those victims and survivors who had
PETER WANLESS: given that testimony deserved
PETER WANLESS: to be kept at the forefront of the debate
PETER WANLESS: and discussion in terms of what happened
PETER WANLESS: next. So out of that
PETER WANLESS: conference, the IICSA Changemakers
PETER WANLESS: were born. I agreed to chair
PETER WANLESS: this coalition of organisations — of which
PETER WANLESS: there are now, I think from memory, 67 —
PETER WANLESS: who share those high-level objectives.
PETER WANLESS: As 67 organisations, we are
PETER WANLESS: supported by Clare Kelly,
PETER WANLESS: who has been pulling the work together
PETER WANLESS: and creating momentum and focus behind our
PETER WANLESS: efforts and activities, and Denise Pringle
PETER WANLESS: who, right from the beginning, we felt we
PETER WANLESS: needed to support the IICSA Changemakers,
PETER WANLESS: someone with really authentic
PETER WANLESS: understanding and expertise when it comes
PETER WANLESS: to adult-survivor perspectives
PETER WANLESS: on child sexual abuse.
PETER WANLESS: So there's the three of us supported by,
PETER WANLESS: as I say, these 67 organisations,
PETER WANLESS: banging the drum for what happens next,
PETER WANLESS: post the inquiry.
PETER WANLESS: I'd really like now to invite Denise to
PETER WANLESS: tell us a little bit about her involvement
PETER WANLESS: with the Changemakers and in particular
PETER WANLESS: what she's been up to, leading to a really
PETER WANLESS: powerful and important conference
PETER WANLESS: that we had with victims and survivors
PETER WANLESS: of child sexual abuse front and centre.
DENISE PRINGLE: So I am the adult-survivor participation
DENISE PRINGLE: manager for IICSA Changemakers.
DENISE PRINGLE: I joined the team almost a year ago
DENISE PRINGLE: and I came on board really to help
DENISE PRINGLE: make sure that survivor voice
DENISE PRINGLE: was prioritised and included
DENISE PRINGLE: in a really rich and genuinely
DENISE PRINGLE: diverse way. It's not something that you
DENISE PRINGLE: can just tick off and say you've done.
DENISE PRINGLE: We needed to be able to take all the
DENISE PRINGLE: learnings from the over 7,000
DENISE PRINGLE: victims and survivors that engaged with
DENISE PRINGLE: the original inquiry and then those that
DENISE PRINGLE: were engaging with Changemakers
DENISE PRINGLE: to make sure that we were creating
DENISE PRINGLE: safe, meaningful participation,
DENISE PRINGLE: which sounds very straightforward but
DENISE PRINGLE: isn't always.
DENISE PRINGLE: And that really culminated in the event
DENISE PRINGLE: that we did in September where
DENISE PRINGLE: we came together and
DENISE PRINGLE: it was a survivor-led event, which was
DENISE PRINGLE: something that we spent many months
DENISE PRINGLE: planning.
DENISE PRINGLE: It was a chance to use this two-year
DENISE PRINGLE: anniversary of IICSA finishing
DENISE PRINGLE: to come together and say, 'this is why
DENISE PRINGLE: all these issues, all these
DENISE PRINGLE: recommendations are still as important
DENISE PRINGLE: today as they were two years ago,' and
DENISE PRINGLE: trying to get momentum...
DENISE PRINGLE: to keep up the determination
DENISE PRINGLE: to get this work done.
DENISE PRINGLE: Our event was purely
DENISE PRINGLE: survivor speaking.
DENISE PRINGLE: We didn't allow any CEOs — we didn't
DENISE PRINGLE: allow Peter — to stand up and
DENISE PRINGLE: we didn't allow any policy heads or civil
DENISE PRINGLE: servants to stand up. We really wanted
DENISE PRINGLE: this to be an exercise in witnessing,
DENISE PRINGLE: listening and hearing survivors take
DENISE PRINGLE: the lead and be able to
DENISE PRINGLE: set a tone of trust and holding
DENISE PRINGLE: survivors as experts in their own rights
DENISE PRINGLE: around all of these policy points and
DENISE PRINGLE: their experiences.
DENISE PRINGLE: So, Peter, Clare; do you have any
DENISE PRINGLE: questions about the planning for the
DENISE PRINGLE: event that you want me to particularly
DENISE PRINGLE: focus on?
CLARE KELLY: I think for me, Denise, it was
CLARE KELLY: watching you do your thing as we built
CLARE KELLY: towards that event. Every day there was a
CLARE KELLY: new scheduled element that you knew
CLARE KELLY: we needed to cover. And sometimes, you know,
CLARE KELLY: from someone like myself, I was sat back
CLARE KELLY: going, 'Why do I need to do that?' And you
CLARE KELLY: question it and you don't really understand
CLARE KELLY: it until you see it play out.
CLARE KELLY: And I just wonder, in your experience, do
CLARE KELLY: people really underestimate the amount of
CLARE KELLY: time and energy it takes in the pre-planning
CLARE KELLY: as well? Because you — although we had a few
CLARE KELLY: months to do it — you were constant on it.
CLARE KELLY: I just wonder what your view was on it.
DENISE PRINGLE: A lot of the things with safeguarding and
DENISE PRINGLE: safety and risk management and
DENISE PRINGLE: participation, you're planning for
DENISE PRINGLE: situations and putting measures in place
DENISE PRINGLE: that hopefully you won't actually need or
DENISE PRINGLE: won't need to click into place, but you
DENISE PRINGLE: need to have them planned, prepped
DENISE PRINGLE: and thoroughly explored.
DENISE PRINGLE: Something that you often hear a lot with
DENISE PRINGLE: best practice guidance around
DENISE PRINGLE: participation is it's got to be
DENISE PRINGLE: meaningful, right. It's got to be
DENISE PRINGLE: meaningful, it's got to be meaningful.
DENISE PRINGLE: But it's not just meaningful for the
DENISE PRINGLE: organisation or the outcome or
DENISE PRINGLE: the policy point we're trying to land.
DENISE PRINGLE: It needs to be meaningful for the lived
DENISE PRINGLE: experienced folks that are taking part in
DENISE PRINGLE: it. And the only way you're going to understand
DENISE PRINGLE: what meaningful means for them is by
DENISE PRINGLE: exploring it and diving in and learning
DENISE PRINGLE: more about them; finding out what things
DENISE PRINGLE: are difficult, what aligns with their
DENISE PRINGLE: wants and ambitions.
DENISE PRINGLE: And all of that takes a lot of time and
DENISE PRINGLE: safety planning and transparency.
DENISE PRINGLE: Because trust doesn't come easy.
CLARE KELLY: Something we were really keen to do was
CLARE KELLY: involve voices from underrepresented areas,
CLARE KELLY: seldom heard voices in the room who
CLARE KELLY: had not yet had the opportunities or hadn't
CLARE KELLY: been heard during the original independent
CLARE KELLY: inquiry, and still wanted to make sure that
CLARE KELLY: they got space in the room with the right
CLARE KELLY: people. That was something during the
CLARE KELLY: planning phase as well, when we were
CLARE KELLY: thinking about who our speakers were and
CLARE KELLY: making sure that they were in a position to,
CLARE KELLY: yes, be safe and it be healthy for them, but
CLARE KELLY: also making sure we had a really good spread
CLARE KELLY: of voices because child sexual abuse affects
CLARE KELLY: so many different areas, different
CLARE KELLY: communities and individuals as well.
PETER WANLESS: There was also the relationship
PETER WANLESS: between the stories
PETER WANLESS: which people had to tell— it's a horrible
PETER WANLESS: word really, 'story', isn't it. I mean,
PETER WANLESS: this is life experience.
PETER WANLESS: Lived experience is a better phrase.
PETER WANLESS: But how to relate...
PETER WANLESS: It would have been quite straightforward
PETER WANLESS: at one level to get some people to come
PETER WANLESS: and tell us what has happened in your life
PETER WANLESS: in order to shock or inspire, but
PETER WANLESS: actually, there were some crunchy
PETER WANLESS: recommendations and expectations
PETER WANLESS: that have been raised as a consequence of
PETER WANLESS: the inquiry, weren't there?
PETER WANLESS: So relating the stories to the
PETER WANLESS: change we wanted to see, I think, was
PETER WANLESS: another really important dimension to this
PETER WANLESS: that you must have given an awful lot of
PETER WANLESS: thought to.
DENISE PRINGLE: We did spend a lot of time on this and it
DENISE PRINGLE: really fell onto
DENISE PRINGLE: survivor speakers to do
DENISE PRINGLE: a lot of that labour with Clare and I
DENISE PRINGLE: supporting them. Because, in order
DENISE PRINGLE: to make sure you're not doing tokenistic
DENISE PRINGLE: participation, you need to make sure that
DENISE PRINGLE: you're not just using people as props or
DENISE PRINGLE: creating a sense of, like you said, just
DENISE PRINGLE: trying to 'shock factor' people or
DENISE PRINGLE: sensationalise someone's life
DENISE PRINGLE: experiences; because apart from
DENISE PRINGLE: these abuse experiences, these are also
DENISE PRINGLE: human beings and folks that have whole
DENISE PRINGLE: complete lives outside of it and we
DENISE PRINGLE: wanted them to bring their entire selves
DENISE PRINGLE: to the event. So Clare and I worked with
DENISE PRINGLE: them to identify which recommendations
DENISE PRINGLE: and policy areas they were interested in,
DENISE PRINGLE: how it aligned with their experiences,
DENISE PRINGLE: what particular points they wanted to
DENISE PRINGLE: make, and how that correlated with who
DENISE PRINGLE: was in the room.
DENISE PRINGLE: Then we did a lot of work making sure
DENISE PRINGLE: that we were helping to manage the
DENISE PRINGLE: emotional boundaries of it as well.
DENISE PRINGLE: Because although we never wanted to
DENISE PRINGLE: censor people, we had to be aware that we
DENISE PRINGLE: have a large amount of survivors speaking
DENISE PRINGLE: in the same room, and there would
DENISE PRINGLE: definitely be undisclosed survivors in
DENISE PRINGLE: the audience, and we didn't want it to be
DENISE PRINGLE: an an event where everyone was
DENISE PRINGLE: becoming retraumatised and put in a
DENISE PRINGLE: really fragile state.
DENISE PRINGLE: So that was something we had to carefully
DENISE PRINGLE: work through individually with each
DENISE PRINGLE: speaker. It wasn't something that could
DENISE PRINGLE: just be done with a blanket approach.
PETER WANLESS: Another thing which struck me on the day
PETER WANLESS: was — and I'm interested in the extent to
PETER WANLESS: which this was planned or it just emerged
PETER WANLESS: — was, you know, we heard
PETER WANLESS: about some really devastating
PETER WANLESS: consequences and shattered lives,
PETER WANLESS: but we also heard aspects
PETER WANLESS: of hope and success
PETER WANLESS: within some of the stories.
PETER WANLESS: So the testimony felt
PETER WANLESS: authentically associated with a range of
PETER WANLESS: different characters, but also
PETER WANLESS: when one listened to the collection
PETER WANLESS: of speakers together, it wasn't
PETER WANLESS: unadulterated misery and
PETER WANLESS: everything is wrong and hopeless.
PETER WANLESS: Actually, within the
PETER WANLESS: testimony that was delivered on the day,
PETER WANLESS: there were clues and examples that left
PETER WANLESS: people at the event thinking,
PETER WANLESS: 'actually, it doesn't have to be like
PETER WANLESS: this.'
DENISE PRINGLE: It doesn't have to just be
DENISE PRINGLE: pity and sadness.
DENISE PRINGLE: They have their place, but what we wanted
DENISE PRINGLE: to focus on — and we said this right at
DENISE PRINGLE: the beginning of the event — is, you
DENISE PRINGLE: know, bring your whole self, bring all
DENISE PRINGLE: the feelings of anger and and shock, but
DENISE PRINGLE: we want to inspire people to move through
DENISE PRINGLE: that to action because that's what
DENISE PRINGLE: survivors are asking for.
DENISE PRINGLE: That's what they need. That's what they
DENISE PRINGLE: want.
DENISE PRINGLE: So that we're not just stuck in this
DENISE PRINGLE: frozen state of being overwhelmed, which
DENISE PRINGLE: is easy to be.
DENISE PRINGLE: Part of being able to prioritise that
DENISE PRINGLE: hope and wholeness
DENISE PRINGLE: comes down to really prioritising a
DENISE PRINGLE: trauma-informed approach and making sure
DENISE PRINGLE: that you're prioritising people's
DENISE PRINGLE: strengths and their skills and their
DENISE PRINGLE: humanity and their wholeness,
DENISE PRINGLE: rather than just focusing on what's
DENISE PRINGLE: happened to them. So that was definitely
DENISE PRINGLE: a lens that we put all of the planning
DENISE PRINGLE: through, including
DENISE PRINGLE: all the speeches as well.
CLARE KELLY: The other big thing on the actual day itself
CLARE KELLY: was the planning Denise had done around
CLARE KELLY: specific advocacy; having a safety
CLARE KELLY: plan for each individual and having enough
CLARE KELLY: support.
CLARE KELLY: I think, again, that is something that can
CLARE KELLY: be underestimated.
CLARE KELLY: Denise is fabulous, but she is not ten
CLARE KELLY: people in ten different rooms in ten
CLARE KELLY: different scenarios.
CLARE KELLY: And we knew — thinking about this amount of
CLARE KELLY: people that would require, appropriately so,
CLARE KELLY: support on the day — we needed support.
CLARE KELLY: So we went out to IICSA Changemakers and we
CLARE KELLY: knew who had the right qualifications, who
CLARE KELLY: had the right characteristics and skillset,
CLARE KELLY: and was experienced at supporting people
CLARE KELLY: with lived experiences in similar
CLARE KELLY: situations.
CLARE KELLY: We don't think anyone had done a very
CLARE KELLY: specific one like this, but Denise, you
CLARE KELLY: ran sessions with them and you spent as much
CLARE KELLY: time with the advocates as you did with the
CLARE KELLY: survivors. I just think it'd be great to
CLARE KELLY: talk about that a bit as well.
DENISE PRINGLE: Every survivor speaker had a safety plan
DENISE PRINGLE: that was done with me and in
DENISE PRINGLE: collaboration with them, so they had full
DENISE PRINGLE: transparency of it.
DENISE PRINGLE: Every survivor speaker then had an
DENISE PRINGLE: assigned advocate. As Clare said, this
DENISE PRINGLE: was a dedicated professional that had
DENISE PRINGLE: experience in safeguarding and had been
DENISE PRINGLE: matched and aligned with what
DENISE PRINGLE: that individual speaker would feel
DENISE PRINGLE: comfortable with. And they were really
DENISE PRINGLE: their point of contact for the day.
DENISE PRINGLE: So imagine it like a miniature
DENISE PRINGLE: safeguarding triage; so
DENISE PRINGLE: we had all of the advocates with their
DENISE PRINGLE: speaker and they could escalate up to me
DENISE PRINGLE: and Clare if necessary, but then they
DENISE PRINGLE: also had their own levels of awareness on
DENISE PRINGLE: their individual speaker safety plan so
DENISE PRINGLE: they could respond in the moment if
DENISE PRINGLE: needed and necessary.
DENISE PRINGLE: But we absolutely couldn't have done the
DENISE PRINGLE: day without them. I think it would have
DENISE PRINGLE: severely impacted survivor's
DENISE PRINGLE: wellbeing and safety — not just physical
DENISE PRINGLE: safety, but psychological safety as well
DENISE PRINGLE: — if they hadn't had that singular point
DENISE PRINGLE: of contact that they could trust was
DENISE PRINGLE: solely there for them.
CLARE KELLY: I think the other thing on the day that we
CLARE KELLY: found incredibly important was environment.
CLARE KELLY: We'd done quite a few recces of the
CLARE KELLY: location. We knew it, we knew what was going
CLARE KELLY: to be... how the layout was, and we could
CLARE KELLY: describe that to people early on so that we
CLARE KELLY: could have discussions around does anything
CLARE KELLY: not feel right about that environment?
CLARE KELLY: What can we change? What can we do?
CLARE KELLY: But something that we learned on the day was
CLARE KELLY: that you have to be flexible to that and
CLARE KELLY: that things can change.
CLARE KELLY: Denise and I had worked up this huge risk
CLARE KELLY: register. Denise had thought of nearly every
CLARE KELLY: situation—
DENISE PRINGLE: [Laughter.] Literally every scenario you
DENISE PRINGLE: think possibly could happen.
CLARE KELLY: —Every scenario; fire, flood the lot. Peter,
CLARE KELLY: you kindly signed it off for us and we had
CLARE KELLY: this big conversation about, okay, these are
CLARE KELLY: the steps that we've gone through and these
CLARE KELLY: are the plans that we've got.
CLARE KELLY: And then on the day, I think it's important
CLARE KELLY: to share that things can change.
CLARE KELLY: In our venue, which was a
CLARE KELLY: community/charity-based venue, they had
CLARE KELLY: rented out some rooms to the NHS who were
CLARE KELLY: doing blood donation and the venue had not
CLARE KELLY: shared that with us.
CLARE KELLY: We knew instantly that might be a
CLARE KELLY: significant consideration for our survivor
CLARE KELLY: speakers, but also our guests — we don't
CLARE KELLY: know who has had negative experiences before
CLARE KELLY: and that might be a problem. We had to have
CLARE KELLY: enough flexibility on the day to move to
CLARE KELLY: that, respond to it, and I think the biggest
CLARE KELLY: thing we did that people responded to was
CLARE KELLY: being transparent about it.
PETER WANLESS: You talked about the whole design of the
PETER WANLESS: event being trauma-informed.
PETER WANLESS: I have lost count of the number of times
PETER WANLESS: that I've been to events where
PETER WANLESS: someone stands up at the beginning — and
PETER WANLESS: the content is going to be about child
PETER WANLESS: sexual abuse — and someone says 'there
PETER WANLESS: could be some content here which is
PETER WANLESS: relevant to child sexual abuse, so I'm
PETER WANLESS: just giving you a warning.' Now, when
PETER WANLESS: you say 'trauma-informed' it is so
PETER WANLESS: much more than that.
PETER WANLESS: I haven't given you notice, Denise, that
PETER WANLESS: I'm going to ask you this question but the
PETER WANLESS: remarks which you gave at the start of the
PETER WANLESS: conference — could you say a little bit
PETER WANLESS: more about those?
DENISE PRINGLE: This is the danger with the
DENISE PRINGLE: phrase 'trauma-informed' is that as it
DENISE PRINGLE: gets more well-known, it can also then
DENISE PRINGLE: become tokenised itself and be used
DENISE PRINGLE: in situations that aren't actually
DENISE PRINGLE: trauma-informed.
DENISE PRINGLE: There isn't really one specific common
DENISE PRINGLE: definition, people tend to
DENISE PRINGLE: slightly mould it depending on their
DENISE PRINGLE: organisation and their needs, but there
DENISE PRINGLE: tends to be five or six cornerstones and
DENISE PRINGLE: pillars of trauma-informed practice that
DENISE PRINGLE: people work with.
DENISE PRINGLE: For Clare and I when we were planning the
DENISE PRINGLE: event, it was: safety, choice,
DENISE PRINGLE: collaboration, trust and cultural equity.
DENISE PRINGLE: So everything we were doing had
DENISE PRINGLE: to prioritise those principles, or I
DENISE PRINGLE: had to look at what I was asking of
DENISE PRINGLE: people or how I was talking to them and
DENISE PRINGLE: say, how am I prioritising these things?
DENISE PRINGLE: What are the power dynamics like?
DENISE PRINGLE: Are we gatekeeping? Are we hoarding
DENISE PRINGLE: information for no reason?
DENISE PRINGLE: And I really wanted to make sure that
DENISE PRINGLE: came across in the opening of
DENISE PRINGLE: the event, because we knew we had to have
DENISE PRINGLE: a very boundaried event.
DENISE PRINGLE: We knew that for the safety of the
DENISE PRINGLE: delegates and the speakers.
DENISE PRINGLE: But like you said, we didn't want to just
DENISE PRINGLE: stand up and say, 'here's a trigger
DENISE PRINGLE: warning', because although they
DENISE PRINGLE: definitely have their place and some
DENISE PRINGLE: people do find them very helpful, we
DENISE PRINGLE: needed the understanding there as well
DENISE PRINGLE: so delegates could understand the
DENISE PRINGLE: intention and the space and what people
DENISE PRINGLE: needed, so there wasn't this us versus
DENISE PRINGLE: them dynamic; survivors [on] one side,
DENISE PRINGLE: delegates [on] the other side.
DENISE PRINGLE: Because as fantastic as practitioners
DENISE PRINGLE: are, sometimes we distance ourselves from
DENISE PRINGLE: the emotion of an event because
DENISE PRINGLE: it feels safer or because we don't want
DENISE PRINGLE: to seem emotional in our professional
DENISE PRINGLE: lives.
DENISE PRINGLE: I can't remember the exact words I said,
DENISE PRINGLE: but I think I was trying to speak to that
DENISE PRINGLE: at the beginning and encourage people to
DENISE PRINGLE: be authentic and present, but also
DENISE PRINGLE: to remember that we're not here just to
DENISE PRINGLE: be garnering pity.
DENISE PRINGLE: Survivors don't need people to come
DENISE PRINGLE: and tell them, 'I'm so sorry'.
DENISE PRINGLE: They want to hear what you're going to do
DENISE PRINGLE: about it.
DENISE PRINGLE: And, by the way, these themes are going
DENISE PRINGLE: to come up, so take care of yourselves,
DENISE PRINGLE: but, full transparency, this is what
DENISE PRINGLE: we're talking about.
PETER WANLESS: And I'm used to going to events and
PETER WANLESS: going away saying, 'oh, my head's
PETER WANLESS: buzzing with all these ideas and thoughts'
PETER WANLESS: and I'm quite a kind of task-based person
PETER WANLESS: and can relate to the idea of, you know, I
PETER WANLESS: need to go and lie down and have a think
PETER WANLESS: or whatever, because there's so many thoughts
PETER WANLESS: going on in my head. Whereas I came out of
PETER WANLESS: this experience with so many things going
PETER WANLESS: on in my heart and my soul.
PETER WANLESS: And, you know, I've said that it's one of
PETER WANLESS: the most memorable days of my time at the
PETER WANLESS: NSPCC.
PETER WANLESS: I left packed full of...
PETER WANLESS: I've said I was concerned.
PETER WANLESS: I was horrified.
PETER WANLESS: I was inspired.
PETER WANLESS: I was angry.
PETER WANLESS: I was impatient.
PETER WANLESS: I was in awe of the speakers.
PETER WANLESS: There were all these feelings going on,
PETER WANLESS: and I had to— Rather than going straight
PETER WANLESS: on the tube, I took myself off for a
PETER WANLESS: walk and that really helped.
PETER WANLESS: But that was me.
PETER WANLESS: How was it for the
PETER WANLESS: speakers in particular and
PETER WANLESS: the advocates and for your selves
PETER WANLESS: subsequent to the event? Because I think
PETER WANLESS: you've got quite a lot to share there in
PETER WANLESS: terms of what we learnt, what we expected
PETER WANLESS: and maybe what we didn't expect.
DENISE PRINGLE: You can never do any kind of
DENISE PRINGLE: participation or event like this without
DENISE PRINGLE: there being a cost.
DENISE PRINGLE: That's just the reality of this work.
DENISE PRINGLE: But what's important is making sure that
DENISE PRINGLE: you're transparent and giving enough
DENISE PRINGLE: information that survivors are making
DENISE PRINGLE: informed consent so they can balance that
DENISE PRINGLE: cost, sacrifice versus outcome.
DENISE PRINGLE: So in the immediate aftermath of
DENISE PRINGLE: the event, we had not only that being
DENISE PRINGLE: explored by speakers, but then the
DENISE PRINGLE: physical and emotional repercussions;
DENISE PRINGLE: because being visible as
DENISE PRINGLE: a survivor, talking about your
DENISE PRINGLE: experiences, it affects you
DENISE PRINGLE: physically, it affects you emotionally,
DENISE PRINGLE: for some people it affects you spiritually,
DENISE PRINGLE: all in individual ways.
DENISE PRINGLE: And it's also not something— I think
DENISE PRINGLE: actually someone said this in one of
DENISE PRINGLE: their speeches, that it doesn't nice and
DENISE PRINGLE: neatly fall into a nine-to-five work
DENISE PRINGLE: pattern. You know, these are symptoms and
DENISE PRINGLE: consequences that unfold over a series
DENISE PRINGLE: of days and weeks.
DENISE PRINGLE: So the period of time after the
DENISE PRINGLE: event was as important as the prep.
DENISE PRINGLE: We had debriefs, stabilisation time, a
DENISE PRINGLE: lot of check-ins.
DENISE PRINGLE: It was really time to help speakers
DENISE PRINGLE: and survivors route back into their
DENISE PRINGLE: lives, route back into
DENISE PRINGLE: how they feel grounded and stable to make
DENISE PRINGLE: sure that this didn't completely derail
DENISE PRINGLE: them from their present life.
DENISE PRINGLE: But we had no one regret taking
DENISE PRINGLE: part in the event.
DENISE PRINGLE: No survivor came back and said, 'I wish I
DENISE PRINGLE: hadn't done that. The cost wasn't worth
DENISE PRINGLE: it for me.' And that,
DENISE PRINGLE: for me, is important; that feels worth
DENISE PRINGLE: it.
PETER WANLESS: And there's something special about the
PETER WANLESS: coalition that is the Changemakers in this
PETER WANLESS: context as well, isn't there.
PETER WANLESS: So this wasn't the conference which was
PETER WANLESS: being put on to advance the interests
PETER WANLESS: of any individual or organisation.
PETER WANLESS: As you said earlier on, it was to create a
PETER WANLESS: platform to amplify the insights and
PETER WANLESS: experiences of people who'd experienced
PETER WANLESS: child sexual abuse. And that was something
PETER WANLESS: which united the 67 organisations
PETER WANLESS: in their determination for things to be
PETER WANLESS: better. So, the collective endeavour feels
PETER WANLESS: quite special actually in this way of
PETER WANLESS: working, which is another interesting
PETER WANLESS: thing perhaps just to reflect on.
CLARE KELLY: I think it is. We always felt this
CLARE KELLY: background of support from the Changemakers.
CLARE KELLY: We'd had to do some really careful pitching
CLARE KELLY: in the early days when we were planning the
CLARE KELLY: event of 'we want to do this, what do you
CLARE KELLY: think' and taking in views.
CLARE KELLY: But then another thing that we had was space
CLARE KELLY: to create.
CLARE KELLY: I remember the early days when we came to
CLARE KELLY: you and we said, 'We've got this idea, it's
CLARE KELLY: a little bit different, there's an awful lot
CLARE KELLY: of risk, but will you trust us to do it?'
CLARE KELLY: And you did.
CLARE KELLY: And I think that's an incredibly important
CLARE KELLY: thing when you have got trust amongst a
CLARE KELLY: group of people and can say, okay, it might
CLARE KELLY: be risky, but it's going to be worth it as
CLARE KELLY: long as you can show me the safety
CLARE KELLY: mechanisms and that everything is being done
CLARE KELLY: well, it's worth doing.
CLARE KELLY: And I think that was always in our mind as
CLARE KELLY: we worked through, wasn't it?
DENISE PRINGLE: Yeah, absolutely.
DENISE PRINGLE: You need people at the top to be able
DENISE PRINGLE: to trust and invest in your ideas for
DENISE PRINGLE: it to come to life.
DENISE PRINGLE: But then likewise, I think, Clare, we
DENISE PRINGLE: needed the trust with each other as well
DENISE PRINGLE: because we were managing so much.
DENISE PRINGLE: We needed to be able to feel the support
DENISE PRINGLE: and trust together and then have all the
DENISE PRINGLE: Changemakers as well. All of the
DENISE PRINGLE: advocates who were Changemakers were
DENISE PRINGLE: phenomenal and their support
DENISE PRINGLE: was absolutely integral.
DENISE PRINGLE: But all of the work that we did is,
DENISE PRINGLE: without minimising our own input,
DENISE PRINGLE: it's nothing compared to the amount of
DENISE PRINGLE: strength and labour that the survivors
DENISE PRINGLE: put in to attend the event, to speak,
DENISE PRINGLE: to deal with the aftermath.
DENISE PRINGLE: So, for me, even though it was a lot of
DENISE PRINGLE: work, I just think it was all worth it to
DENISE PRINGLE: be able to facilitate that opportunity
DENISE PRINGLE: for survivors and for Changemakers to be
DENISE PRINGLE: there with them and say, we're here with
DENISE PRINGLE: you.
DENISE PRINGLE: Absolutely worth it.
PETER WANLESS: So, just to to conclude: if you
PETER WANLESS: were to be giving advice
PETER WANLESS: to listeners who are thinking
PETER WANLESS: of doing work with victims and survivors,
PETER WANLESS: what would you say?
DENISE PRINGLE: I suppose I want to draw it back to what
DENISE PRINGLE: I said at the beginning, that with lived
DENISE PRINGLE: experience and working with victims and
DENISE PRINGLE: survivors, it's never a tick box.
DENISE PRINGLE: It's never going to be something that you
DENISE PRINGLE: get absolutely right or you're going to
DENISE PRINGLE: nail every time.
DENISE PRINGLE: There's always going to be risk and
DENISE PRINGLE: flexibility and nuance and intersection
DENISE PRINGLE: with other issues and vulnerabilities, so
DENISE PRINGLE: be alive to that.
DENISE PRINGLE: Don't strive for perfection.
DENISE PRINGLE: Strive for safety, humanity,
DENISE PRINGLE: trauma-informed working; because that's
DENISE PRINGLE: a more realistic outlook when you're
DENISE PRINGLE: approaching this work.
DENISE PRINGLE: Clare, what about you?
CLARE KELLY: I would ask yourself a question: is
CLARE KELLY: what you're about to do actually going to
CLARE KELLY: move things on for future survivors and
CLARE KELLY: victims? And if it is, if you can
CLARE KELLY: genuinely say to yourself, 'yes, it will,'
CLARE KELLY: then it is worth your commitment, time and
CLARE KELLY: energy. And if you put that in, know that
CLARE KELLY: the survivors are putting a hundred fold
CLARE KELLY: more in. Then go for it, embrace
CLARE KELLY: it, because it has such significant
CLARE KELLY: impact. You know, for the event, we had a
CLARE KELLY: booklet that we gave out at the end, which
CLARE KELLY: had my wording that we'd use from IICSA
CLARE KELLY: Changemakers, and then it was backed up by
CLARE KELLY: survivor experience on every single point.
CLARE KELLY: I think I'd given those speeches at events
CLARE KELLY: on those points so many times and they'd
CLARE KELLY: meant something; but back it up with
CLARE KELLY: survivor experience and it lands.
CLARE KELLY: The message is so much clearer and easier
CLARE KELLY: for people to feel and experience, and like
CLARE KELLY: you said, Peter, it hits differently when
CLARE KELLY: you get it like that, so it will move
CLARE KELLY: positions on.
CLARE KELLY: I think the other really important thing to
CLARE KELLY: consider is that fear can creep up
CLARE KELLY: in this area.
CLARE KELLY: People can overthink and get
CLARE KELLY: so caught up and be afraid of taking
CLARE KELLY: this step to make sure that they are
CLARE KELLY: including survivor voice.
CLARE KELLY: I would really urge people to put that fear
CLARE KELLY: aside, and if anything turn into your risk
CLARE KELLY: management. You can lower your own fear and
CLARE KELLY: anxiety by managing things properly, looking
CLARE KELLY: for appropriate mitigations to those issues.
CLARE KELLY: So use the fear that you had but we would
CLARE KELLY: urge please go for it, overcome that fear
CLARE KELLY: and turn it into action, because that will
CLARE KELLY: actually help people.
DENISE PRINGLE: Sometimes that fear can be part of how we
DENISE PRINGLE: 'other' survivors. It's sometimes
DENISE PRINGLE: referred to as 'othering' where you push
DENISE PRINGLE: and separate a group of people.
DENISE PRINGLE: When we are afraid to connect and afraid
DENISE PRINGLE: to work with, we can 'other'.
DENISE PRINGLE: So think of it as
DENISE PRINGLE: a great piece of advocacy and activism as
DENISE PRINGLE: well. When you're embracing and doing
DENISE PRINGLE: risk management properly, you're
DENISE PRINGLE: connecting and you're making sure that
DENISE PRINGLE: you're breaking down that sense of
DENISE PRINGLE: othering and really treating people and
DENISE PRINGLE: including them.
CLARE KELLY: Don't underestimate the importance of
CLARE KELLY: skill in this area.
CLARE KELLY: It is paramount.
CLARE KELLY: It is not safe to do it without it.
CLARE KELLY: You need that expertise.
CLARE KELLY: But even if you personally don't have that
CLARE KELLY: expertise, be open to working with someone
CLARE KELLY: who does and they will share with you and
CLARE KELLY: they will help you carry out things in a
CLARE KELLY: safe and appropriate way and you will be all
CLARE KELLY: the better for it.
PETER WANLESS: Denise, where do you go about learning
PETER WANLESS: those skills then?
PETER WANLESS: So if I come out of this call and
PETER WANLESS: I think, 'yeah, that's something I'd like
PETER WANLESS: to get better at',
PETER WANLESS: what would I need to do?
DENISE PRINGLE: I mean, I had an advantage because most
DENISE PRINGLE: of my career I've worked in the violence
DENISE PRINGLE: against women and girls sector.
DENISE PRINGLE: So I've been frontline, I've
DENISE PRINGLE: worked in training, I've worked in
DENISE PRINGLE: digital technologies, so I've had the
DENISE PRINGLE: benefit of a lot of training
DENISE PRINGLE: in my career.
DENISE PRINGLE: It's definitely not something that you
DENISE PRINGLE: should bulldoze into and make assumptions
DENISE PRINGLE: of, but you can start learning
DENISE PRINGLE: about trauma-informed practice; I can't
DENISE PRINGLE: emphasise that enough of how critical
DENISE PRINGLE: it is to safe and meaningful work
DENISE PRINGLE: across the board.
DENISE PRINGLE: Also understanding intersectionality;
DENISE PRINGLE: again, it's something that I think
DENISE PRINGLE: more people are becoming aware of, quite
DENISE PRINGLE: rightly, but you need to have an in-depth
DENISE PRINGLE: courage and willingness to
DENISE PRINGLE: explore it because it's not something
DENISE PRINGLE: that you can just tick off.
DENISE PRINGLE: So those would be my two ports of call.
DENISE PRINGLE: I would say dive into trauma-informed
DENISE PRINGLE: working, dive into learning about
DENISE PRINGLE: intersectionality and best practice with
DENISE PRINGLE: that, and then that's your skillset that
DENISE PRINGLE: then would help bolster the work.
PETER WANLESS: Excellent. Very good.
PETER WANLESS: Well, thank you very much to both of you
PETER WANLESS: for working so carefully
PETER WANLESS: with our lived experience speakers
PETER WANLESS: and with the Changemakers to put on such a
PETER WANLESS: memorable and important day.
PETER WANLESS: And, as we have this conversation,
PETER WANLESS: I have seen and
PETER WANLESS: heard from at least one
PETER WANLESS: government minister who has
PETER WANLESS: reflected on what they have been told
PETER WANLESS: happened on this day and how important it
PETER WANLESS: is to their thinking.
PETER WANLESS: And they're
PETER WANLESS: not the only ones, so we need to follow
PETER WANLESS: through and follow up on that.
PETER WANLESS: But there's definitely work to
PETER WANLESS: be done that this
PETER WANLESS: day has created something of
PETER WANLESS: a reset on.
PETER WANLESS: So, powerful and important work,
PETER WANLESS: but it doesn't happen without a huge
PETER WANLESS: amount of preparation, and as we've
PETER WANLESS: reflected, a huge amount of aftercare,
PETER WANLESS: never mind all the diligence
PETER WANLESS: that was was applied on the day.
PETER WANLESS: So thanks for sharing all of that with
PETER WANLESS: us on this podcast and
PETER WANLESS: on we go.
DENISE PRINGLE: Thanks, Peter.
CLARE KELLY: Thank you, Peter.
CLARE KELLY: Thank you, Denise.
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