1 00:00:37,113 --> 00:00:39,594 JAMES GRASBY : Hello and welcome to the National Trust Podcast. 2 00:00:39,894 --> 00:00:43,575 I'm James Grasby. Before we start our story, I wanted to let 3 00:00:43,635 --> 00:00:46,336 you know that from March, the National Trust Podcast is 4 00:00:46,396 --> 00:00:49,658 changing so we can bring you more award-winning stories in 5 00:00:49,718 --> 00:00:51,258 nature, history and adventure. 6 00:00:51,818 --> 00:00:55,400 Stay on this stream for our new immersive nature podcast, Wild 7 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,781 World Of... or if gripping history is your thing, look out 8 00:00:58,881 --> 00:01:00,522 for our podcast, Back When. 9 00:01:01,222 --> 00:01:04,564 Remember to follow either show in your favourite podcast app so 10 00:01:04,624 --> 00:01:07,425 you're the first to hear new stories as they arrive. 11 00:01:08,785 --> 00:01:11,647 In today's classic episode, we're travelling to the East 12 00:01:11,747 --> 00:01:14,748 Anglian town of Oxburgh. We're visiting a property which, with 13 00:01:14,748 --> 00:01:18,249 the help of some unusual archaeologists, has been home to 14 00:01:18,289 --> 00:01:20,310 some incredible chance findings. 15 00:01:22,851 --> 00:01:25,713 The acres of verdant woodland that surrounds Oxburgh Hall is 16 00:01:25,973 --> 00:01:28,674 full of a variety of ancient trees, oak and ash. 17 00:01:29,454 --> 00:01:32,756 Among the sweet summer birdsong and the chirp of insects is the 18 00:01:32,756 --> 00:01:35,977 occasional rumble of an aircraft flying to and from the nearby 19 00:01:36,037 --> 00:01:36,797 military base. 20 00:01:37,558 --> 00:01:39,979 But when you stop and take some time to look at your 21 00:01:40,019 --> 00:01:43,480 surroundings here, as with any woodland, you'll find a treasure 22 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,901 trove of activity left behind by the people who used to frequent 23 00:01:46,961 --> 00:01:48,522 these spaces for work and leisure. 24 00:01:49,402 --> 00:01:51,803 But to give me a better idea of the archaeology that can be 25 00:01:51,843 --> 00:01:55,445 found in this woodland and what it tells us, I'm hoping to bump 26 00:01:55,505 --> 00:01:58,406 into Angus Wainwright, a National Trust archaeologist, 27 00:01:59,046 --> 00:02:01,888 who'll be able to shed some light on Oxburgh's woodland 28 00:02:02,128 --> 00:02:02,568 secrets. 29 00:02:07,188 --> 00:02:09,330 I hope I'm heading in the right direction. I've come through a 30 00:02:09,370 --> 00:02:12,874 narrow footpath and the canopy is surrounding me. 31 00:02:13,995 --> 00:02:16,977 Where is Angus? I think probably rather like looking for 32 00:02:17,037 --> 00:02:21,241 wildlife. This ancient landscape is probably precisely the sort 33 00:02:21,241 --> 00:02:23,143 of place where you would find an archaeologist. 34 00:02:24,224 --> 00:02:28,629 But look, there within it, as you would expect, a questing 35 00:02:28,709 --> 00:02:31,772 archaeologist. That is my friend, Angus, I'm sure of it. 36 00:02:34,772 --> 00:02:35,632 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Hello James. 37 00:02:35,692 --> 00:02:40,354 JAMES GRASBY : Hello Angus. I thought I might find you here. 38 00:02:40,354 --> 00:02:41,955 What a sensational place. 39 00:02:42,195 --> 00:02:43,176 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yes, beautiful isn't it? 40 00:02:43,196 --> 00:02:43,716 JAMES GRASBY : Magical. 41 00:02:43,976 --> 00:02:45,857 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, I've got to show you something that 42 00:02:45,917 --> 00:02:47,377 excites an archaeologist. 43 00:02:49,658 --> 00:02:51,099 JAMES GRASBY : Angus, we're standing on the edge of a little 44 00:02:51,159 --> 00:02:55,461 clearing in Scots Pine Woodland and in front of us is a mound 45 00:02:55,521 --> 00:02:59,082 that looks like a very large molehill and to my untutored eye 46 00:02:59,462 --> 00:03:02,164 it looks a bit like a round barrow. 47 00:03:02,644 --> 00:03:05,257 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, that's what we thought it might be. I 48 00:03:05,277 --> 00:03:08,099 mean, round barrows are prehistoric burial mounds, as 49 00:03:08,099 --> 00:03:11,121 you know. We do get them in this part of the world. We cleared 50 00:03:11,161 --> 00:03:14,143 the trees off it and had a closer look. 51 00:03:14,243 --> 00:03:16,445 JAMES GRASBY : So we're just rising up a low bank and looking 52 00:03:16,465 --> 00:03:18,426 on the top, it is hollow. What is that? 53 00:03:20,567 --> 00:03:22,989 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: What we found when we kicked about on the top 54 00:03:23,029 --> 00:03:25,871 of our supposed round barrow was a lot of bricks. 55 00:03:25,951 --> 00:03:26,091 JAMES GRASBY : No! 56 00:03:26,651 --> 00:03:27,632 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yeah, if you have a look at that. 57 00:03:28,393 --> 00:03:29,113 JAMES GRASBY : My goodness. 58 00:03:29,674 --> 00:03:32,235 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: What we thought we might have was a 17th 59 00:03:32,275 --> 00:03:36,518 century kind of park building, an ornamental building. 60 00:03:36,618 --> 00:03:39,800 And then what we found was that, no, the bricks we found on the 61 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,061 inside had been very heavily burnt. 62 00:03:42,402 --> 00:03:45,724 And then we started wandering further out into the woods and 63 00:03:45,724 --> 00:03:49,326 we found at least two other of these mounds. 64 00:03:50,007 --> 00:03:52,948 You know, what we've got here is a little local brickmaking 65 00:03:53,008 --> 00:03:57,691 industry, probably making bricks for cottages and walls and the 66 00:03:57,711 --> 00:04:01,241 stoke hole at the other end where people were operating the 67 00:04:01,261 --> 00:04:04,001 kiln were putting the wood in to keep it burning. 68 00:04:04,682 --> 00:04:08,323 We found some clay pipes and one piece of pottery down in the 69 00:04:08,363 --> 00:04:11,063 stoke hole. So you can imagine that being a nice little warm 70 00:04:11,184 --> 00:04:13,944 spot. They are down there having a bit of a smoke and maybe 71 00:04:14,024 --> 00:04:17,385 something to drink and broke one of their pipes. The date of 72 00:04:17,405 --> 00:04:21,346 those agreed with late 17th, early 18th century. 73 00:04:24,807 --> 00:04:26,388 JAMES GRASBY : This is a very different form of sleuthing 74 00:04:26,408 --> 00:04:26,828 isn't it? 75 00:04:27,008 --> 00:04:29,169 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Wandering in the woods at Oxburgh looking at 76 00:04:29,149 --> 00:04:32,191 the archaeology is really marvellous, but some of the most 77 00:04:32,251 --> 00:04:36,073 interesting and strangest and most unusual bits of archaeology 78 00:04:36,153 --> 00:04:38,294 are actually in the hall itself. 79 00:04:38,794 --> 00:04:41,256 JAMES GRASBY : Indoor archaeology? How does that work? 80 00:04:41,976 --> 00:04:43,977 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, some very special techniques and 81 00:04:44,017 --> 00:04:46,519 we'll have a look at those and we'll have a little chat as we 82 00:04:46,779 --> 00:04:47,779 walk back towards the hall. 83 00:04:48,079 --> 00:04:48,000 JAMES GRASBY : Fabulous. Let's go. 84 00:04:52,149 --> 00:04:54,350 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: My sort of nature conservation colleagues, 85 00:04:54,370 --> 00:04:56,590 they're always sort of looking up for interesting birds in the 86 00:04:56,610 --> 00:04:59,391 trees, but I'm always looking at the ground. You know, often I'm 87 00:04:59,411 --> 00:05:00,792 actually feeling it with my feet. 88 00:05:01,172 --> 00:05:02,152 JAMES GRASBY : I love that expression. 89 00:05:02,432 --> 00:05:03,993 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It's sort of detective work. You're looking 90 00:05:03,993 --> 00:05:08,574 for clues to tell you about what happened in the past, but it's 91 00:05:08,654 --> 00:05:09,595 all about people. 92 00:05:10,015 --> 00:05:13,416 All these things were created by people for a purpose, and often 93 00:05:13,476 --> 00:05:17,437 they're just everyday folk who don't get memorialised in all 94 00:05:17,437 --> 00:05:18,618 the wonderful documents. 95 00:05:18,678 --> 00:05:21,521 We don't have letters and diaries from them, but what we 96 00:05:21,541 --> 00:05:24,904 do have is these marks they've left on the landscapes. 97 00:05:26,085 --> 00:05:28,647 JAMES GRASBY : Now, Angus, I had to stop. We've come to the end 98 00:05:28,667 --> 00:05:31,609 of this unfinished carriageway and get the first sight of that 99 00:05:31,669 --> 00:05:33,771 astonishing hall, Oxburgh Hall. 100 00:05:34,412 --> 00:05:37,414 The bricks that you were showing, it's sort of 1600s, and 101 00:05:37,414 --> 00:05:39,716 this building is hundreds of years earlier, I guess. 102 00:05:39,896 --> 00:05:41,858 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It's about built 200 years before that 103 00:05:41,938 --> 00:05:45,161 kiln, so it would have been a fashionable and cutting-edge 104 00:05:45,573 --> 00:05:47,554 high status building of the time 105 00:05:47,735 --> 00:05:49,276 JAMES GRASBY : And was a substantial house for an 106 00:05:49,296 --> 00:05:50,737 important family. Who were they? 107 00:05:52,138 --> 00:05:54,279 ANNA FORREST: Oxburgh Hall's history is inextricably linked 108 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:55,920 with the history of the Bedingfeld family. 109 00:05:56,381 --> 00:05:59,483 I'm Anna Forrest and I worked as curator for the National Trust 110 00:05:59,483 --> 00:06:00,043 at Oxburgh. 111 00:06:00,604 --> 00:06:03,226 Oxburgh and the Bedingfelds have witnessed the English 112 00:06:03,286 --> 00:06:07,509 Reformation, the reign of Elizabeth I, the English Civil 113 00:06:07,609 --> 00:06:12,092 War in the 17th century. They were Jacobite sympathisers 114 00:06:12,172 --> 00:06:13,433 during the 18th century. 115 00:06:13,945 --> 00:06:16,766 During the 19th century, the house was practically a ruin 116 00:06:16,866 --> 00:06:18,667 because of everything that had gone before. 117 00:06:18,947 --> 00:06:22,809 And then in the 20th century, it was put up for sale and a great 118 00:06:22,849 --> 00:06:26,151 number of the contents were sold. And the house itself was 119 00:06:26,251 --> 00:06:30,052 nearly sold just for its bricks and demolished, which is a 120 00:06:30,072 --> 00:06:32,133 thought that doesn't really bear thinking about. 121 00:06:33,314 --> 00:06:36,635 When Elizabeth I came to the throne, there was the act of 122 00:06:36,756 --> 00:06:41,057 uniformity, which made saying mass a crime. And made refusing 123 00:06:41,117 --> 00:06:43,958 to attend church to hear the English service illegal. 124 00:06:44,278 --> 00:06:47,639 And people who refused to sign up to this act were known as 125 00:06:47,679 --> 00:06:50,060 recusants, which literally means refusers. 126 00:06:50,540 --> 00:06:53,861 And Sir Henry Bedingfeld was one of the people who refused. 127 00:06:54,521 --> 00:06:56,601 It would have been very difficult, really, for the 128 00:06:56,601 --> 00:06:59,362 Bedingfelds to have carried on worshipping in the way they were 129 00:06:59,422 --> 00:07:01,743 used to. They would have had to have carried themselves with 130 00:07:01,783 --> 00:07:03,143 extreme care at this point. 131 00:07:06,384 --> 00:07:08,825 JAMES GRASBY : We've come round to what I guess is the principal 132 00:07:08,945 --> 00:07:09,425 entrance. 133 00:07:09,797 --> 00:07:12,519 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: I think if you were visiting in the 1500s, the 134 00:07:12,559 --> 00:07:16,040 doors would be shut. These massive medieval oak doors. 135 00:07:16,261 --> 00:07:19,202 You'd have to hammer on the door and this little one would open 136 00:07:19,302 --> 00:07:19,542 here. 137 00:07:20,923 --> 00:07:24,165 Knock on the door. And we found scratches on the inside of the 138 00:07:24,205 --> 00:07:28,027 window there where a dog has jumped up at the window and 139 00:07:28,047 --> 00:07:28,727 scratched. 140 00:07:29,448 --> 00:07:32,629 So you'd knock on the door and then that guard dog would bark, 141 00:07:32,689 --> 00:07:33,410 bark, bark. 142 00:07:33,870 --> 00:07:36,712 And somebody would emerge out of one of these little doors here 143 00:07:36,732 --> 00:07:37,612 on either side. 144 00:07:38,633 --> 00:07:41,714 Follow me up. The spiral staircase and now you'll see the 145 00:07:41,754 --> 00:07:43,315 painted brickwork. 146 00:07:45,156 --> 00:07:46,737 JAMES GRASBY : Is this painted to look like brick? 147 00:07:46,817 --> 00:07:50,238 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: This is brick but it's been painted red with 148 00:07:50,298 --> 00:07:54,861 white lines it's a bit weird it's just make the brick look 149 00:07:54,981 --> 00:07:55,381 neater. 150 00:07:56,761 --> 00:08:01,404 JAMES GRASBY : Quite incredible it's like the curly-whirly snail 151 00:08:01,544 --> 00:08:04,025 shell drawn out going up the inside. 152 00:08:08,157 --> 00:08:10,498 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So this is the room called the King's Room. 153 00:08:10,638 --> 00:08:14,159 Traditionally this was the room which was set aside for Henry 154 00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:15,660 VII when he visited. 155 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,001 JAMES GRASBY : Really? For royal visit? A royal visitor? 156 00:08:19,322 --> 00:08:21,883 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So just over there is another doorway which 157 00:08:21,983 --> 00:08:23,823 leads into a lovely little vaulted room. 158 00:08:24,324 --> 00:08:27,785 Just off it is the Garderobe, your little private lavatory, 159 00:08:27,865 --> 00:08:30,906 but also one of Oxburgh's most famous mysteries. 160 00:08:31,387 --> 00:08:32,447 JAMES GRASBY : Ooh, lead the way. 161 00:08:34,048 --> 00:08:36,909 Is this really a lav? 1480s loo? 162 00:08:37,437 --> 00:08:38,018 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It was. 163 00:08:38,538 --> 00:08:39,118 JAMES GRASBY : En suite? 164 00:08:39,378 --> 00:08:39,799 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Down there. 165 00:08:39,939 --> 00:08:42,661 JAMES GRASBY : Are you? You're kidding me. Is that a? It's a 166 00:08:42,701 --> 00:08:43,481 deadfall loo. 167 00:08:43,521 --> 00:08:45,683 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: There's a hole in the floor, which should go 168 00:08:45,803 --> 00:08:48,505 down a shaft into the moat. 169 00:08:49,125 --> 00:08:49,566 JAMES GRASBY : Oh, I see. 170 00:08:49,566 --> 00:08:51,867 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: But It doesn't. It goes into a secret 171 00:08:52,007 --> 00:08:52,227 room. 172 00:08:52,968 --> 00:08:53,248 JAMES GRASBY : Really? 173 00:08:53,468 --> 00:08:54,909 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: You can squeeze through if you want. 174 00:08:54,969 --> 00:08:56,971 JAMES GRASBY : Can I squeeze through? Well, this is a first. 175 00:08:57,651 --> 00:09:01,934 To be entering a lavatory. Feet first. I'm going down and 176 00:09:02,034 --> 00:09:02,675 dropping down. 177 00:09:03,816 --> 00:09:04,596 Useful Torch. 178 00:09:05,257 --> 00:09:07,866 Here we are. I'm now in the depths. I'm going round the 179 00:09:07,946 --> 00:09:11,029 U-bend in the lavatory. That's fortunately not a full of water. 180 00:09:11,789 --> 00:09:16,993 And as Angus told me, I've now entered a little room. 181 00:09:17,473 --> 00:09:20,575 Large enough to stand up in, but certainly not to lie down in. 182 00:09:20,915 --> 00:09:22,376 This is fascinating. 183 00:09:23,557 --> 00:09:29,301 I would guess that this is somewhere that you would hide in 184 00:09:29,301 --> 00:09:35,340 the event of an emergency. I'm going to come out through the 185 00:09:35,340 --> 00:09:37,972 lav! 186 00:09:37,972 --> 00:09:38,994 Angus, I'm intrigued. 187 00:09:39,817 --> 00:09:41,060 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Have you worked out what it is? 188 00:09:41,584 --> 00:09:43,965 JAMES GRASBY : Well, it feels like somewhere, you know, a 189 00:09:44,005 --> 00:09:46,707 priest hole or somewhere that if you're under threat, you could 190 00:09:46,807 --> 00:09:47,307 get away. 191 00:09:47,707 --> 00:09:50,869 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So it is a priest hole. So the Bedingfeld 192 00:09:50,949 --> 00:09:55,672 family were Catholics. They didn't turn to Protestantism. So 193 00:09:55,812 --> 00:09:58,894 they were, you know, in a sticky political position. 194 00:09:58,914 --> 00:10:02,396 And that is why from being very wealthy, they fell on the hard 195 00:10:02,476 --> 00:10:06,498 times. And they had to have priests to serve mass, which was 196 00:10:06,518 --> 00:10:10,380 illegal. So they had to have a little bolt hole for the priest 197 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,282 to go should anybody turn up at the door hammering away. 198 00:10:14,462 --> 00:10:16,102 JAMES GRASBY : If I'd been caught, if I'd been that 199 00:10:16,382 --> 00:10:20,144 Catholic priest and they'd found their way to me, what would have 200 00:10:20,144 --> 00:10:21,024 been the outcome? 201 00:10:21,244 --> 00:10:23,185 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, you'd be dragged out and probably 202 00:10:23,305 --> 00:10:27,907 tortured to find out who your associates were, and then you'd 203 00:10:27,927 --> 00:10:31,309 probably be executed in a rather gruesome way. 204 00:10:33,049 --> 00:10:34,770 JAMES GRASBY : Is finding priests hidden under the floor 205 00:10:34,850 --> 00:10:38,792 something that you encounter in your daily- 206 00:10:39,596 --> 00:10:41,778 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: I've never actually, funnily enough, ever 207 00:10:41,838 --> 00:10:45,100 found a priest under a floorboard, but we have found a 208 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,402 lot of other exciting things under the floorboard at Oxburgh. 209 00:10:48,422 --> 00:10:50,363 JAMES GRASBY : You're going to show me some things? 210 00:10:50,483 --> 00:10:50,644 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yeah. 211 00:10:51,024 --> 00:10:51,884 JAMES GRASBY : Oh, wonderful. 212 00:10:57,128 --> 00:10:59,229 That was quite a narrow staircase you brought me up, 213 00:10:59,309 --> 00:11:01,951 Angus. I guess we're in the servants' bedrooms? 214 00:11:02,712 --> 00:11:05,834 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Often we don't really know how rooms were used 215 00:11:05,854 --> 00:11:09,332 because these weren't described, but we were lucky, in 216 00:11:09,372 --> 00:11:11,873 archaeological or historical terms, because we've just 217 00:11:11,913 --> 00:11:14,434 completed a massive building project at Oxburgh. 218 00:11:15,034 --> 00:11:18,515 All the floorboards in this room and the attic next door to us 219 00:11:18,755 --> 00:11:21,816 were all lifted up. Underneath these floorboards, as you can 220 00:11:21,836 --> 00:11:23,617 imagine, there's hundreds of years of dust. 221 00:11:23,917 --> 00:11:26,738 So amongst the dust are things that have fallen between the 222 00:11:26,758 --> 00:11:31,039 cracks in the floorboards or been deliberately hidden. So all 223 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:33,520 this stuff accumulates under the floorboards. 224 00:11:33,700 --> 00:11:36,601 Normally, it would just be shovelled away and go out in the 225 00:11:36,641 --> 00:11:39,643 skip. But we decided we were going to treat this as a sort of 226 00:11:39,663 --> 00:11:41,043 archaeological excavation. 227 00:11:45,005 --> 00:11:47,787 JAMES GRASBY : This is not the Indiana Jones end of archaeology 228 00:11:47,787 --> 00:11:50,348 is it? It is not the excavation of the Roman villa or the 229 00:11:50,488 --> 00:11:53,909 finding of a Mithraic temple. It's a completely different 230 00:11:53,929 --> 00:11:54,910 world, this, isn't it? 231 00:11:54,930 --> 00:11:57,251 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It's been said by others that archaeology is 232 00:11:57,271 --> 00:11:58,131 all about rubbish. 233 00:11:59,672 --> 00:12:02,334 And whether you're looking underneath the floorboards or on 234 00:12:02,314 --> 00:12:06,358 an excavation of a Roman villa, you're digging up other people's 235 00:12:06,458 --> 00:12:06,898 rubbish. 236 00:12:07,199 --> 00:12:10,281 And that's telling you a picture about their life. 237 00:12:10,922 --> 00:12:16,487 Sorting through 57 sacks of dust was both dirty and boring at 238 00:12:16,547 --> 00:12:16,887 times. 239 00:12:17,047 --> 00:12:19,790 But, you know, me and the volunteers were kept going by 240 00:12:19,790 --> 00:12:23,293 the dream of finding, you know, a little gold coin or something 241 00:12:23,333 --> 00:12:24,434 really exciting like that. 242 00:12:24,734 --> 00:12:27,716 But us archaeologists, we can be excited by much more trivial 243 00:12:27,796 --> 00:12:30,778 things than gold coins. And we've got some, you know, 244 00:12:30,898 --> 00:12:33,019 spectacularly trivial things for you to look at. 245 00:12:33,239 --> 00:12:34,179 JAMES GRASBY : I'm longing to see them. 246 00:12:36,780 --> 00:12:39,041 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: What we might do is start from the trivial and 247 00:12:39,061 --> 00:12:42,383 work up to the more fancy. I thought these were probably the 248 00:12:42,403 --> 00:12:46,344 most sort of mundane. Have a look at those. 249 00:12:46,344 --> 00:12:48,925 JAMES GRASBY : I recognise those from Christmas. Walnut shells. 250 00:12:49,386 --> 00:12:50,386 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Walnut shells, yes. 251 00:12:50,466 --> 00:12:50,726 JAMES GRASBY : Really? 252 00:12:50,866 --> 00:12:53,647 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So in some rooms there were tonnes of 253 00:12:53,647 --> 00:12:58,001 walnut shells. If they've been nibbled by rats, it could be 254 00:12:58,021 --> 00:13:00,582 that the rats have actually brought them down to eat under 255 00:13:00,582 --> 00:13:01,262 the floorboard. 256 00:13:01,723 --> 00:13:04,844 But these ones that have been perfectly cracked and not 257 00:13:04,904 --> 00:13:08,485 nibbled by rats, they've been deliberately put under the 258 00:13:08,525 --> 00:13:08,806 floor. 259 00:13:09,506 --> 00:13:13,387 And what we think is that this is sound insulation. 260 00:13:13,988 --> 00:13:14,168 JAMES GRASBY : Oh. 261 00:13:14,528 --> 00:13:17,629 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So you put a thick layer of walnut shells 262 00:13:18,169 --> 00:13:22,371 under your floor as a sound insulation because downstairs 263 00:13:23,071 --> 00:13:27,931 are the bedrooms of the gentry. And up here are the servants 264 00:13:27,991 --> 00:13:31,534 clattering around on this floor with no carpet on it, bash, 265 00:13:31,574 --> 00:13:32,875 bash, bash, chatting away. 266 00:13:33,135 --> 00:13:35,777 People downstairs don't want to hear what's going on upstairs. 267 00:13:35,837 --> 00:13:39,020 JAMES GRASBY : What a brilliant idea. Early sound insulation. 268 00:13:39,060 --> 00:13:39,260 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yeah. 269 00:13:41,302 --> 00:13:45,245 So probably the commonest find are these. 270 00:13:45,665 --> 00:13:46,886 JAMES GRASBY : They're dressmaking pins, are they? 271 00:13:47,286 --> 00:13:49,448 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: They must be dressmaking pins. We haven't 272 00:13:49,468 --> 00:13:52,471 looked at these in detail, but what's clearly happening is that 273 00:13:53,191 --> 00:13:58,171 maids are adapting or making dresses in this room. 274 00:13:58,692 --> 00:14:01,334 They're dropping pins, and when they're sweeping up, they're 275 00:14:01,374 --> 00:14:04,496 going down between the cracks of the floorboards. And what we 276 00:14:04,576 --> 00:14:08,119 found was they're concentrated where you might imagine, where 277 00:14:08,119 --> 00:14:08,960 the windows are. 278 00:14:09,540 --> 00:14:11,482 JAMES GRASBY : It's not just finding a pin. It's knowing the 279 00:14:11,502 --> 00:14:14,264 context from which that pin came from that really begins to 280 00:14:14,344 --> 00:14:16,886 answer questions, give a picture of daily life here, doesn't it? 281 00:14:17,066 --> 00:14:19,949 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It's a simple little story, but it just gives 282 00:14:19,949 --> 00:14:23,051 you a little window into the lives of real people in the 283 00:14:23,091 --> 00:14:25,190 past, just from a few pins. 284 00:14:25,570 --> 00:14:26,191 JAMES GRASBY : That's magic. 285 00:14:32,423 --> 00:14:33,204 What have you got there? 286 00:14:34,005 --> 00:14:36,390 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So we've got a little box, which I'll try not 287 00:14:36,410 --> 00:14:37,672 to break when I open it. 288 00:14:38,819 --> 00:14:41,861 But if you just want to hold that carefully and- 289 00:14:42,021 --> 00:14:43,582 JAMES GRASBY : Wow, I'm going to take it over to the light where 290 00:14:43,582 --> 00:14:47,004 the seamstress was. That looks like a fragment of textile to 291 00:14:46,984 --> 00:14:47,104 me. 292 00:14:47,404 --> 00:14:47,524 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: So- 293 00:14:47,704 --> 00:14:48,644 JAMES GRASBY : A little bit of cloth. 294 00:14:48,745 --> 00:14:50,846 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Bizarrely, the most exciting thing in this 295 00:14:50,946 --> 00:14:52,607 attic was a rat's nest. 296 00:14:52,867 --> 00:14:57,770 So when Matt, the archaeologist who was here, found it, it was 297 00:14:57,790 --> 00:15:00,831 just like a dusty heap of fabric. 298 00:15:01,252 --> 00:15:04,854 He carefully unfurled it, all these different bits of chewed 299 00:15:04,934 --> 00:15:08,476 up textile, and he realised that there was something unusual 300 00:15:08,516 --> 00:15:09,056 about this. 301 00:15:10,737 --> 00:15:13,139 MATTHEW CHAMPION: My name is Matthew Champion. I am a 302 00:15:13,499 --> 00:15:16,861 freelance buildings archaeologist, specialise in 303 00:15:17,242 --> 00:15:20,103 historical inscriptions and underfloor archaeology and 304 00:15:20,124 --> 00:15:20,884 buildings recording. 305 00:15:22,025 --> 00:15:26,348 We were carrying out a survey in the attics at Oxburgh. We were 306 00:15:26,428 --> 00:15:29,750 investigating beneath the floorboards. While working in 307 00:15:30,030 --> 00:15:33,212 one area near the gatehouse, I came across what appeared to be 308 00:15:33,753 --> 00:15:37,936 a very large and rather ancient rat's nest. 309 00:15:38,196 --> 00:15:40,598 These weren't uncommon at Oxburgh, we had come across 310 00:15:40,658 --> 00:15:43,920 quite a few already, but it was very clear from this as soon as 311 00:15:43,940 --> 00:15:47,723 I started investigating that we had small pieces of parchment 312 00:15:47,863 --> 00:15:50,105 and we had quite a lot of textiles involved. 313 00:15:51,626 --> 00:15:55,269 So we took a fairly forensic approach, we couldn't lift the 314 00:15:55,289 --> 00:15:59,092 whole thing in situ, so we had to literally beneath the 315 00:15:59,112 --> 00:16:02,775 floorboards and gradually dissect this rat's nest. 316 00:16:03,055 --> 00:16:05,436 And as soon as we started opening it up, we realized it 317 00:16:05,456 --> 00:16:09,799 was full of treasures. We had collars, we had cuffs, we had 318 00:16:09,899 --> 00:16:13,581 embroidery, and we had some very, very high status things 319 00:16:13,621 --> 00:16:14,262 like silks. 320 00:16:14,322 --> 00:16:16,143 We had velvets, we had satins. 321 00:16:16,423 --> 00:16:19,785 What was really significant was the quality. These were not your 322 00:16:19,985 --> 00:16:23,747 average everyday items. These had clearly come from luxury 323 00:16:23,867 --> 00:16:24,487 garments. 324 00:16:25,008 --> 00:16:28,450 A lot of the garments that these came from would have been very 325 00:16:28,650 --> 00:16:32,136 fashionable, high status items. But of course fashions changed 326 00:16:32,156 --> 00:16:32,936 quite quickly. 327 00:16:33,297 --> 00:16:36,599 The material itself could be reused, whereas the garment 328 00:16:36,639 --> 00:16:37,039 couldn't. 329 00:16:37,059 --> 00:16:39,740 So what they were doing was they were cutting off things like 330 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,903 collars and the cuffs, and then they were reusing those larger 331 00:16:44,123 --> 00:16:47,305 sections of material, and probably reusing them in other 332 00:16:47,465 --> 00:16:49,626 more fashionable, up-to-date garments. 333 00:16:49,746 --> 00:16:52,288 This is just not something you normally come across in 334 00:16:52,328 --> 00:16:52,868 archaeology. 335 00:16:52,968 --> 00:16:58,860 JAMES GRASBY : That's fabulous. It's not only a great reminder 336 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,642 to all of us today about the tradition of reusing recycling 337 00:17:02,682 --> 00:17:07,585 materials, but also the idea that once it's of no use to us, 338 00:17:07,625 --> 00:17:11,007 it may be of use to somebody else, even a family of rats. 339 00:17:11,187 --> 00:17:14,509 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yes, probably hundreds of generations of 340 00:17:14,509 --> 00:17:20,132 little rats have snuggled up in that over the centuries. And 341 00:17:20,152 --> 00:17:21,473 I'll put that back- 342 00:17:22,574 --> 00:17:24,155 JAMES GRASBY : I'm glad you went through all this rubbish. 343 00:17:29,075 --> 00:17:33,217 Now that is extraordinary. It is a small fragment, I would think, 344 00:17:33,257 --> 00:17:33,778 of paper. 345 00:17:34,598 --> 00:17:36,879 No, that's music notation, isn't it? 346 00:17:37,180 --> 00:17:38,520 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It is music notation. 347 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:38,841 JAMES GRASBY : Is it? 348 00:17:39,001 --> 00:17:41,302 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yes, this little scrap of paper and a few 349 00:17:41,402 --> 00:17:46,405 others like it came out of the rat's nest as well. Luckily, 350 00:17:47,185 --> 00:17:50,627 there was an expert on hand to have a look at the photographs 351 00:17:50,667 --> 00:17:55,870 and identify that this is actually early Tudor, 352 00:17:55,870 --> 00:17:57,031 handwritten music. 353 00:17:58,283 --> 00:18:00,724 DAVID SKINNER: My name is David Skinner. I'm the Osborne 354 00:18:00,744 --> 00:18:04,025 Director of Music at Sydney Sussex College in Cambridge. 355 00:18:06,105 --> 00:18:09,506 I believe it was a morning, it was definitely a morning, and 356 00:18:09,566 --> 00:18:14,368 somebody forwarded this article to me and I opened it up on my 357 00:18:14,428 --> 00:18:14,908 computer. 358 00:18:16,408 --> 00:18:19,069 I was reading through the article, just casually 359 00:18:19,449 --> 00:18:23,090 mentioning two small fragments, musical fragments, without any 360 00:18:23,170 --> 00:18:26,131 further information. Then my heart started to race. Because 361 00:18:26,131 --> 00:18:28,812 there's a possibility that this might be composed music. 362 00:18:31,133 --> 00:18:34,475 Each side of the fragment had enough musical notation, enough 363 00:18:34,595 --> 00:18:39,457 information to show that this was indeed music probably from 364 00:18:39,477 --> 00:18:41,057 the mid-1520s. 365 00:18:41,297 --> 00:18:44,779 Very likely to be music by a well-known composer from that 366 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:48,200 time, could have been Cornish, could have been Tallis, and also 367 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,122 a lost fragment from what seems to be a lost book of masses. 368 00:18:54,203 --> 00:18:58,036 We have so little, comparatively little music from the reign of 369 00:18:58,056 --> 00:19:01,857 Henry VIII. So it would completely, fundamentally change 370 00:19:01,917 --> 00:19:05,118 the soundscape of our understanding of early Tudor 371 00:19:05,158 --> 00:19:05,738 Church music. 372 00:19:06,779 --> 00:19:09,460 The implications are vast here, because it just simply means 373 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,461 that this music represents the very, very height of English 374 00:19:13,581 --> 00:19:18,402 choral endeavor in the 1520s. So what is it doing in a rat's nest 375 00:19:19,063 --> 00:19:19,983 in Oxburgh Hall? 376 00:19:28,294 --> 00:19:30,235 JAMES GRASBY : Angus, you brought me along a corridor and 377 00:19:30,295 --> 00:19:32,776 I've only got my bearings by looking out of this window. 378 00:19:33,077 --> 00:19:36,358 But this looks to me to be a cross between a laboratory and a 379 00:19:36,438 --> 00:19:36,739 study. 380 00:19:36,959 --> 00:19:39,580 Now, you've got some tools of the trade here. Some very dainty 381 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,442 brushes, some sturdier household brushes. There are bags of 382 00:19:43,662 --> 00:19:47,584 unsorted material, lots of clipboards, endless forms 383 00:19:47,664 --> 00:19:50,086 detailing all the finds. What am I looking at, Angus? 384 00:19:50,266 --> 00:19:53,047 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, this is my working area. We don't do the 385 00:19:53,107 --> 00:19:56,289 actual sorting for the dust in here because, as you can 386 00:19:56,289 --> 00:19:57,530 imagine, it's very dusty. 387 00:19:57,950 --> 00:20:02,353 So we do that under a gazebo outside. But here, under the 388 00:20:02,494 --> 00:20:06,717 bench, are some bags waiting to be sorted. 389 00:20:07,297 --> 00:20:11,080 So these are rubble sacks. Yeah, they contain about one or two 390 00:20:11,180 --> 00:20:14,383 bucketfuls of debris from under the floorboards. And if- 391 00:20:14,383 --> 00:20:15,764 There's one here that's open- 392 00:20:16,304 --> 00:20:17,685 JAMES GRASBY : That is a bag of rubbish, Angus. 393 00:20:18,185 --> 00:20:21,288 Angus, this is not archaeology to my mind. There's dust that 394 00:20:21,408 --> 00:20:23,990 would come out of my vacuum cleaner that I throw in the bin. 395 00:20:24,350 --> 00:20:27,332 It looks very unpromising to me, but you're telling me this is 396 00:20:27,332 --> 00:20:28,573 the clue to the past. 397 00:20:28,593 --> 00:20:31,055 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Yeah, so that's actually a hoover bag. So 398 00:20:31,155 --> 00:20:34,937 the builders, first they shovel out the material, then they 399 00:20:35,317 --> 00:20:36,278 hoover it all out. 400 00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:39,860 And the shovelled out material and the hoover bags all go in 401 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,123 the sack. But the interesting things that we've looked at 402 00:20:43,163 --> 00:20:46,345 before will be hidden amongst all that material. 403 00:20:47,265 --> 00:20:49,147 JAMES GRASBY : So you're telling me that you now put all that out 404 00:20:49,167 --> 00:20:50,608 on a tray and go through it? 405 00:20:51,288 --> 00:20:52,869 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Every thimble full. 406 00:20:53,550 --> 00:20:53,890 JAMES GRASBY : Wow. 407 00:20:54,858 --> 00:20:56,359 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, we looked at some of the other 408 00:20:56,419 --> 00:20:59,520 things that we found under the floorboards, but I've got one 409 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,921 larger item here to show you. 410 00:21:05,623 --> 00:21:09,505 JAMES GRASBY : It's all wrapped up in a tissu paper inside a 411 00:21:09,525 --> 00:21:14,767 box. My goodness, that is astonishing. Beautifully done, 412 00:21:14,787 --> 00:21:16,548 and the detail is exquisite. 413 00:21:16,568 --> 00:21:20,970 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: Well, this is a little leather-bound printed 414 00:21:21,150 --> 00:21:26,294 book and it's a book of psalms from 1569 and it was actually 415 00:21:26,534 --> 00:21:32,678 compiled by Catherine Parr, who you might remember as the sixth 416 00:21:32,678 --> 00:21:38,922 wife of Henry VIII, who was a very studious person, a very 417 00:21:39,303 --> 00:21:43,445 highly Protestant, so rather unusual thing to find in a very 418 00:21:43,586 --> 00:21:45,727 Catholic family's house. 419 00:21:46,187 --> 00:21:50,814 This was found by a builder resting on top of the external 420 00:21:50,874 --> 00:21:55,916 wall just under the tiles, so inches from the weather, just 421 00:21:55,956 --> 00:21:57,856 waiting for that builder to come along. 422 00:21:58,257 --> 00:22:01,237 JAMES GRASBY : Wow, that is incredible. 423 00:22:01,257 --> 00:22:11,160 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: It's a bit puzzling how it got there. We 424 00:22:11,181 --> 00:22:15,062 don't think it was deliberately hidden. You know, there wouldn't 425 00:22:15,062 --> 00:22:18,503 be anything politically problematic about it. 426 00:22:18,483 --> 00:22:22,984 In fact, it's the ideal book one would want in one's house to 427 00:22:23,044 --> 00:22:25,945 show that, you know, one was a proper Protestant. 428 00:22:26,765 --> 00:22:30,326 You can imagine it might have dropped off the back of a shelf, 429 00:22:30,926 --> 00:22:34,607 off the end of the floorboard, just through a large enough gap 430 00:22:34,727 --> 00:22:37,908 to drop down onto the top of the exterior wall. 431 00:22:38,668 --> 00:22:40,909 You know, maybe it was just a chance like that and there it 432 00:22:40,949 --> 00:22:44,369 sat, you know, unnoticed all that time. 433 00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:46,710 JAMES GRASBY : Angus, you were showing me pins and walnut 434 00:22:46,790 --> 00:22:52,533 shells and small fragments of everyday things. But to find a 435 00:22:52,633 --> 00:22:55,774 book in this sort of condition must be astonishing for an 436 00:22:55,814 --> 00:22:56,435 archaeologist. 437 00:22:57,295 --> 00:22:58,656 ANGUS WAINWRIGHT: This is the kind of thing, when we set this 438 00:22:58,716 --> 00:23:03,098 project up, that's the sort of thing we dreamt of finding. We 439 00:23:03,118 --> 00:23:05,679 knew we'd find interesting things like those pins, you 440 00:23:05,659 --> 00:23:08,780 know, that tell us about the everyday life of the house. But 441 00:23:08,780 --> 00:23:12,482 we hoped, you know, that we might find some really unusual 442 00:23:12,522 --> 00:23:14,539 and valuable and evocative things. 443 00:23:14,539 --> 00:23:18,082 I mean, that's so evocative, isn't it, in that condition as 444 00:23:18,142 --> 00:23:22,605 well, you know, of the history of a place like Oxburgh Hall. 445 00:23:22,625 --> 00:23:27,029 It's just encapsulated in that sort of rotting and nibbled, 446 00:23:27,409 --> 00:23:28,069 wonderful book. 447 00:23:33,914 --> 00:23:36,115 JAMES GRASBY : So I've reluctantly said goodbye to 448 00:23:36,536 --> 00:23:41,870 Angus, and behind me is Oxburgh. Which is sort of evaporating 449 00:23:41,910 --> 00:23:46,132 again into this wonderful landscape, this meadowland of 450 00:23:46,572 --> 00:23:49,312 almost waist-high flowering plants. 451 00:23:51,653 --> 00:23:55,034 And I'm trying to do and trying to think about what Angus told 452 00:23:55,034 --> 00:23:57,395 me, which I thought was lovely, the idea of feeling the 453 00:23:57,415 --> 00:24:01,256 landscape with your feet as a way of sensing what's going on, 454 00:24:01,376 --> 00:24:04,817 his sense of inquiry and the way he goes about the sort of 455 00:24:04,837 --> 00:24:07,637 forensic investigation of buildings, extending 456 00:24:07,717 --> 00:24:12,393 archaeology, not just from excavating a brick kiln, but to 457 00:24:12,533 --> 00:24:15,696 underfloor archaeology and the lives and collecting habits of 458 00:24:15,796 --> 00:24:19,720 rats in the house reveals so much, these lost lives to 459 00:24:19,780 --> 00:24:24,084 history of needlewomen who have not been recorded in documents 460 00:24:24,144 --> 00:24:27,408 but whose evidence of their lives persists in the things 461 00:24:27,408 --> 00:24:29,770 that they left behind. It's been a great revelation. 462 00:24:40,492 --> 00:24:42,913 Thanks for listening to this episode of the National Trust 463 00:24:42,953 --> 00:24:46,154 Podcast. From next month, stay on this stream for our new 464 00:24:46,274 --> 00:24:48,395 nature podcast, Wild World Of. 465 00:24:49,135 --> 00:24:52,197 You'll be immersed in intriguing stories from our natural world, 466 00:24:52,457 --> 00:24:56,298 from spider sex to folklore origins and dinosaur 467 00:24:56,419 --> 00:24:59,720 discoveries. Or if gripping history is your thing, look out 468 00:24:59,780 --> 00:25:01,821 for our new podcast, Back When, with me. 469 00:25:02,621 --> 00:25:05,743 We'll be transporting you back in time to step into the stories 470 00:25:05,763 --> 00:25:08,224 of the people, places and moments that made us. 471 00:25:08,785 --> 00:25:12,547 You'll experience the great stink, retrace the footsteps of 472 00:25:12,627 --> 00:25:16,909 sci-fi author HG Wells and unearth the dark history of the 473 00:25:16,989 --> 00:25:20,611 Plague Village, along with a treasure box full of other great 474 00:25:20,691 --> 00:25:21,091 stories. 475 00:25:21,652 --> 00:25:25,074 Remember to follow all our shows from National Trust Podcasts to 476 00:25:25,054 --> 00:25:28,296 be the first to hear new episodes as they arrive.