Loneliness
JAYNE
0:00
Hi everybody, it's Jayne Ray, and welcome back to Joyous Journeys Over 60. As always, I'm joined by my podcast partner, Andreas Stein.
ANDREAS
0:09
Jayne, good to be with you. How are you? I am very well, thank you. You know, the last two episodes, we've kind of had a stream going, uh, talking about just being you. And then in our last episode, we talked about embracing the past. And today we're going to kind of build on some of that. Um, and I hope if you're a listener, you've been kind of reflecting and maybe taking some baby steps, uh, towards just being you and then really embracing your past. But I think part of that is incomplete. If we don't talk about a really important, um, aspect of life at this stage, which is loneliness. Andreas, you know, you and I have been talking about loneliness. And loneliness is not just necessarily being alone. Right?
JAYNE
1:01
There are three flavors of loneliness that we've identified, particularly common in people over 60. Would you describe what some of those are? Yeah.
ANDREAS
1:12
I think the first flavor has to do with what you mentioned, being alone. So, you know, here in Fort Myers, a very seasonal, uh, you know, territory or an area, a lot of people flying back north, you know, for, uh, for the summer months. And suddenly the ones here, you know, 55 and older, they may be the only one, uh, in the hallway in the condo complex, you know, in January, February, there are tons of people around. Suddenly they are the only one. And I'm feeling alone. It's just me here. That's that fear that's lonely. So the second flavor of loneliness, uh, really, uh, has to do with that. A feeling of not fitting in and being insecure. Feeling inadequate. And I want to be part of that crowd. I want to fit in with those people, whoever those people are, whatever that crowd is, I want to fit in. And somehow I'm not fitting in. And that feels lonely. Uh, so that's the second flavor. And the third flavor has to do with that impression that other person is not getting me. I've heard many times that people feel lonely being married. You know, they they hang around each other all day long, every single day of the week. They, they they eat dinner together. They, uh, you know, they do all of these things together, but somehow you're not getting me, I tell you all these things. And it can go either way, either direction. And you're just not kidding me. And if I'm around a person, and that person doesn't seem to get me, that feels lonely. So those are the three flavors of loneliness, I think. And there are more flavors, but I think those are the three we want to explore a little bit.
JAYNE
3:02
Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about the first one, because the first one which is actually being alone. Right. Um, is something that that may be more common as you reach the stage in your life. Um, it could be your family's moved away and you're used to having your family around or you've moved away from your family. It could be that, um, your, um, lifestyle has changed. Uh, you're in a new community. You don't know anybody. You don't have any friends. You can't rely on on what you had before. You might have lost a partner. There's a possibility of that as as well. But basically being alone. And some people like to be alone, right? Right. Some people really treasure that time to themselves. So alone doesn't necessarily mean lonely.
ANDREAS
3:54
Correct. Uh,
JAYNE
3:55
but it is, as you describe, like in a situation like where we are in Fort Myers, um, suddenly you're eating dinner by yourself.
ANDREAS
4:06
That's lonely, isn't it?
JAYNE
4:07
Lonely. Dinner alone is the loneliest time of the day. Lunch, for whatever reason, isn't right. Right. You know, grabbing a sandwich, you know, uh, isn't. But somehow eating dinner alone is a very lonely, lonely experience. So let's talk a little bit about just being alone or adapting to a life change that is different than perhaps you've had in the past. Right? I, I really believe, Jayne, that the way we are designed as human beings, as people, the way God made us to use that language that we've been designed to connect, to interact. We have not been designed to be in isolation, to be alone. I mean, from the moment we enter this world, there are people around us, uh, there's moms, there's dads there, maybe, you know, and, uh, and if everything kind of goes as normal or as planned, there will always be people around. Being alone, I don't believe, is a natural state. Now for a time, for a break. We all need aloneness time with ourselves. And, uh, you know, there are times when I don't want to see anyone and I want to talk anyone to anyone. I want to just shut the door behind me and just let me sit here for a couple few hours, you know? And and some like it longer than that, and some just want to have short breaks, but. So I'm not talking about, you know, that need to be with ourselves or for, for a little while. But we are created for human interactions. We need each other not just to get jobs done, not just to get work done. We need each other to be complete.
ANDREAS
6:00
And that means that, you know, when we are suddenly at that stage in our life, when, oh my God, I'm the only person in this huge condo complex, or there's really no one else around. Yeah, it's not about eating dinner. It's not about not having food. There's food on the table I can eat, but I always hang out with my husband, my kids, my grandkids, with someone else. I was talking while I was eating. I was thinking about this suddenly just me as terrible. So there is, uh, that step really where I recognize that is destroying me. I need to really break out of this. I, I need to create, uh, these interactions, as hard as it is, as tough as it is. But isolation leads not just to loneliness. But isolation means that my heart dries out. And when my heart dries out, there is no more joy. There is no more laughter. There is no more happiness.
JAYNE
7:03
Yeah, and I think isolation can be so debilitating because we're not happy with the circumstance. But we don't know what to do to change the circumstance. Um, it's, you know, again, it's not like in the past where, um, your, your community just happened to you either because you had family around or because your kids were in school and you became friends with other parents, or, you know, your neighbors, and suddenly now you're isolated. You don't want to be isolated, but you also don't necessarily understand the steps to take to it's intimidating. Or, you know, we're going to talk about just intimidation generally, but it's intimidating, dare I say scary, to try to break that pattern, right. And meet people that we've never met before. And we don't know whether we're going to like them. They're going to like us, whether so or even where to go to break that. Um, and then and I would also say there's almost a feeling of, of inadequacy, like I'm alone. My circumstance, um, could be frustrating. It it could be very painful because whatever reason, you are alone physically, right. Um, may be the result of something that happened that was very painful. Like losing a spouse or you moved away from your family. I mean, your family is still healthy, happy, whatever. You're just not in proximity to each other. So let's talk a little bit. Let's kind of roll that into the second flavor, which is feeling that intimidation and that insecurity. Because physically being alone, but also being alone, feeling alone in a room full of people. Right. Really kind of have the same origins. That is very correct. That's very true. Behind loneliness is so many times that feeling of I'm not measuring up, that person is more popular, that person seems more educated. That person is really, really and funny. Uh, that person has an act together, and here I am. I'm just not fitting in, and I don't know how to handle this. And so that feeling of being inadequate, of not cutting the mustard of of not, uh, that is, that gives birth to to loneliness. And for me, one of the things that I have learned in my, in my own journey is I don't need to believe everything that I feel. Sometimes my feelings are liars. My feelings are lying to me, my feeling convince me, oh, that person is more popular. That person as they act together. That person is so funny. And I'm just that little nothing. Your feelings are lying to you. Just. Just because you feel it doesn't mean you need to believe it. You
ANDREAS
10:05
are not just adequate. You have a lot to offer. Even at this stage in your life. You are a great friend for many people. You are a fun person to hang out with. You have a lot to offer. You don't need to believe it just because you feel it.
JAYNE
10:26
It's funny, I'm going to tell a story because somehow we always talk about my stories, but it really relates to this. So my community has a monthly ladies lunch, and so I was very excited about going to the ladies lunch, because I really have not made a lot of friends in my new community. We've only lived here about a year, and so I put on a pretty dress and I, you know, put on some makeup and I go to the ladies lunch and it's in a very, very pretty place. And there's probably, I don't know, 100 more people, uh, there. And again, I don't know anybody. And I'm pretty chatty, as most of you will probably figure that out. So I walk up to this lady and she's very nice and we're chatting for a minute and she says, hey, I would invite you to sit at my table, but my table is full. Go. Please sit at this other person's table. So I did. I went over to the other person and I said, hey, she sent me to talk to you. And I sat down and we started chatting. In about five minutes later, this lady looks at me and she says, I'm really sorry, but would you change your seat? Because our friend just showed up? I don't think I've ever felt so lonely in my whole life. Right? It was like, here I am among these hundreds of people. So now I start going to these other tables, looking for a single seat. And all of them have their reserve napkins over the side, and there's not a single seat available. And I could feel the tears, like, welling up on my face like, oh my God, I'm in a room of a hundred people and nobody wants me to sit with them. Now. They didn't know me, right? They didn't know me. They didn't know Jayne. They didn't know anything about me. They wanted to sit with their existing friends. Right. But my feelings were telling me that, you know, you're not as cool. It was like high school cafeteria. Yes. If anybody remembers particularly women high school cafeterias where the popular kid sat at their own table and you weren't invited, and I left. I left, um, and I left really heartbroken, um, and really feeling inadequate. And then I wrote to the membership person and said, hey, you know, don't you think it would be a good idea to have, like, a new member table or something like, like that? But I went back and it took me a few months before I went back and, um, and this time I got there early. So I chose a seat. Yeah.
ANDREAS
12:43
Smart. 2s Right. So? So just the moral of that story is that I said I'm a pretty friendly person. I'm. You know, I'm very comfortable in front of crowds and whatever. I felt like I was 16 years old in the high school cafeteria where all the popular cool, pretty girls, um, were basically saying, you're not good enough. And it was a horrible feeling, but my feelings were lying to me. To your point, Andreas, my feelings were lying to me. They weren't saying I wasn't good enough. They weren't. They weren't. There was nothing there. Right? That was at anything to do with me as a person. It had to do with them and their comfort with people they knew. They didn't know me, right? They didn't know me. But I felt so lonely right
JAYNE
13:34
now. The next time I said, I took a little control of the situation and made sure that, um, if they wanted the, you know, ten people to sit there, sorry. Once one seat's taken up, 2s it wasn't easy and I won't tell you. They were all like, oh, hi. Yeah. But, um, but it was something that I felt I had to do. Otherwise I would continue to feel intimidated. But
ANDREAS
13:58
how hard is that to override your feelings with something that, you know, I have to do this, you know, because our feelings are powerful. They want to paralyze us. They want to freeze us in that moment. So even though your mind tells you I need to, I'll find a way. I show up five minutes earlier, ten minutes earlier, and whether they like it or not, they will sit next to me because I know it wasn't about me. I knew they had existing friends, so it wasn't them rejecting me. It wasn't them wanting to be with with their friends. Your mind tells you that, but your feelings are more powerful in that moment and to in that moment to override your feelings with your mind. It's like we know the other way around, you know, act on your heart and go where your heart leads us. Sometimes it's the other way around. Go where your mind takes you, not where your heart wants to take you. Because sometimes your heart may be lying to you, uh, and not tell you the truth. And that took a lot of courage, what you did. I was wondering where you would go with that story. And when you mentioned, you know what, I went back there a couple of months later. It wasn't easy that that took a lot of courage,
JAYNE
15:15
perhaps, but but I would tell you that I didn't rationalize it right away. Right. I, I you're right. My feelings were lying to me. And like we talked about in our previous episode about embracing, I kind of had to embrace that feeling, but I also needed to overcome it. Otherwise I would always feel lonely in that crowd. I would always feel like I didn't fit or I wasn't good enough. Uh, for that crowd. Plus, you know, I have a little bit of a personality. Don't get mad. Get even. So. Ha ha ha ha ha.
ANDREAS
15:49
All right. Yes.
JAYNE
15:51
Uh, 1s so. So, uh, it's kind of like that movie Mean Girls, right? Yeah. Viggo. But the point is, is that regardless of how strong a personality might be, how, you know, people think you've got to. I mentioned the last episode about inner child. The inner child sometimes is a child and doesn't have a mature approach to your feelings. So you're right, your your inner child feelings could very much be lying to you, right? Right. Because when you're a child, it's not my fault. It's I'm not. You know, kids are just generally insecure once they reach a certain age. So, um, so I if you hear nothing else, uh, audience in listening to this is to accept the fact that sometimes your feelings are lying to you. Yes. And that your loneliness is a direct result of that is a direct result of the fact that you're fabricating. Um, uh, the feeling is real, but you're fabricating. What's the result of that feeling is instead of facing it?
ANDREAS
16:54
Yes, yes. You have feelings. Feelings are neutral, but your feelings try to interpret, try to come up with an explanation. Well, it must mean that I'm not pretty enough. I'm not handsome enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not really enough. I'm not. Powerful and whatever you know has nothing to do with any of
JAYNE
17:15
that. Yeah. So let's talk about you. Don't get me. You don't get me. Because that's, I think, something that's also really common, because at this stage of your life, you may not be alone in your circumstance. Right? You may not. You've hopefully happily married. Maybe you've been married a long time. Maybe not. Um, but, um, but you may be reaching a point in your life where maybe it's been there for a while that the people that you're with, not just your spouse, but the people you're with, don't get you. So you're lonely when you're with them.
ANDREAS
17:49
You are lonely when you are with them, and you feel less lonely when you were away from them. Which is strange, right? Because common sense would say it's the other way around. But I don't think anything makes us feel as lonely as recognizing I'm opening my heart to that other person. And that person doesn't get anything from what I'm saying. That person I don't know either is not listening, or it's not getting it, or doesn't want to get it, or assumes that already knows whatever it is, that person doesn't get one thing of what I'm trying to communicate and that feels lonely.
JAYNE
18:28
Do you think it's partially that they don't get me now? So particularly people that have been together a long time are the families or spouses or or friends where they've known you a long time. And the presumption is that you're still, well, you are still always the same person, but that you're that they're not comfortable with who you are today or what you're doing today, or the feelings you're expressing today. Because our feelings do change and and our emotional needs do change as you're getting older. Yeah. Um, and so is that part of it is that they kind of pigeonholed you into an old you
ANDREAS
19:09
pigeonholed. It's a power of assumption. Are you assume I already know what you need, what you say, where this conversation is going. So as you are talking, I'm already formulating the answer in my mind because I know what you want to say anyway, so you no longer hear a thing. So that assumption is as a road that keeps me from truly listening. You know, there's this a saying we we listen not to understand, but we listen to respond. Listening is about understanding, not about figuring out how I can respond. Uh, you know, and so when I think this is. 1s When I feel you're not getting me what I. What really is behind it is you aren't listening. You think you already know what I'm saying? I'm not saying what I think. What you think I'm saying you. You're guided by your assumptions. And you are right. If I've been around a person for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, of course I assume I know that person. Of course I assume. And when that person finally says some things that goes contrary to these assumptions, that can't be true. Well, it is because as we change, as we grow older, we make new experiences. Our needs change.
JAYNE
20:35
We change. Yeah. So okay, so we're going to run out of time. But let's let's just talk about some tangible steps for the three flavors okay. So the first one you know everyone's going to say, well do something. Get out of the house. Uh, you know, um, go find someplace to have dinner. And there is a truth to that, right? There's certainly a truth to that, that the first step you need to step is always the hardest step.
ANDREAS
21:03
You need to find a community where you feel comfortable. No one of us can, um, you know, uh, live without community. You know, sometimes you may have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a friend. You may have to go into a lot of communities, but you say, yeah, no, never mind. Uh, not b back. So. But then you will find that community where you realize. So don't be discouraged if there are a lot of frogs that you kiss and they remain a frog. Uh, they're not turning into a prince. That's. That's all right. Don't. It is not about you not fitting in, being inadequate. It's just not your community. But you need community. Uh, keep kissing those frogs until there is a trend. This is my community. This is where I, you know, can have dinner, hang out, be with folks. But we all need community.
JAYNE
22:02
Absolutely. And, you know, I think finding the community the hardest step is always the first step. Yes.
ANDREAS
22:08
Um, but finding the community has to be something that is meaningful to you. Yes. You know, we thought that that, um, we would find our new friends and our new community where we live. We live in a very large, uh, community and belong to the the club that is associated with it. Actually, we found that we're finding community more through finding peace Lutheran. Right. Who, by the way, we've met people that now live in our community. So so you gotta you have to find whether it's crafts or sports or or, uh, faith, right. Whether it's, it's church, whether it's ladies groups or men's groups or something like that, don't allow intimidation to stop you. You go the first time you like it, you go to the second time, you go the first time you don't like it, you don't go back. Right. Um, but that first step is the hardest. Yes. What about
JAYNE
22:57
the second part about feeling inadequate or insecure? How do you. I mean, in my case, I, you know, don't get mad at events, but, you know, not everybody would do that,
ANDREAS
23:09
you know. I sometimes in my own journey, you know, when I know I had to do something and I felt like, oh, I'm not sure if I'm up to that. I'm not sure if I can do that. And I wanted to just, you know, escape or run away and just know that no one is an option. So sometimes I play this little trick with myself. I said, you know, I only need to be. I only need to do this the next three, four minutes. I just need to be brave for three minutes. Just three. It doesn't need to be all day. It doesn't need to be for the next five hours. It doesn't need to be for just the next three minutes. I need to do this. And after those three minutes, I can go back to my little inadequate self and I'm good. So okay, I can do three minutes of that. That's all I need to do. Three minutes. So I'll do this for three minutes. I find out in these three minutes I don't need to go back to this. I'm feeling inadequate. I'm insecure self, you know. So sometimes we just need to find, you know, this little courage. Uh, you know, and and do this and but it's hard, uh, because feelings are very, very, very powerful. It's one thing with our mind to know that our feelings are may or may not lead us into the right direction. It takes a lot of strength to do something differently. And. But sometimes that's the way to go. Yeah.
JAYNE
24:31
And I think it's kind of the Netherlands MCU sweat, right? Put on a brave face for a few minutes and then you can assess are your feelings true or are they lying to you? You know, the first time you you you're you're in an environment and somebody is nice to you, then you go, oh, well, maybe that feeling wasn't
ANDREAS
24:50
true. You know, maybe. Isn't that this old line from Pretty Woman, the movie? Put on some lipstick for yourself, a drink, and, uh, you know, you know, that may not be a. Advice in a situation, but it's the same dynamic there. Okay. Just, you know, do it for, uh, for a few moments, you know, and you will find out, okay. Yeah. I'm not inadequate. I can do this.
JAYNE
25:15
But I also think part of it and again, we can't really spend too much time on this. But remember, you be you. Right. So don't in those situations try to be that. Very good point. That's I think there's a fine line between putting on a brave face or putting on a false face. And I think that's something that will continue to explore. But remember, you be you. Yes. And if you can't be you in that, in that environment,
ANDREAS
25:40
then it ain't your community. It's not your community. It's not your
JAYNE
25:43
community. And you know what? It's it's not the right place for you. Okay. Last one. And we're running a little long, but I think this is an important, uh, important conversation. They don't get me
ANDREAS
25:56
listening. Uh, there's a lot of very good listening exercises, and, um, you know, sometimes it is as simple as if you realize that other person, uh, you know, you aren't getting me. You you're not hearing what I'm trying to tell you. It's, uh, you know, uh, sometimes it's as simple as, you know, if it happens to be in a marriage or, you know, in a friendship or whatever, to ask that person right after, what did you hear me say? And sometimes that person will tell you stuff. I didn't say that. What did you hear me say? You know, uh, and so sometimes, you know, it is, you know, good to ask that person. What did you hear me say? You know, and and sometimes, you know, if you are the listener, if it's your job, you know, to listen. And that other person tells you, I'm not sure that you're getting. Don't assume you already know. You don't. Uh, that person may want to tell you something that's really meaningful, unique, totally new thing. Don't assume, don't listen. Don't try to formulate your answer already as you were listening. Just listen.
JAYNE
27:11
And I think here's the hard part because assumptions work in both directions. Yeah, I may assume that you know what I need. I mean, assume that you you heard that, right? Right. And so part of it is asking for what you need. Yes. And I think that's hard, but as we've talked about throughout this whole series is it's baby steps. Yes. Right. It's baby steps. Maybe writing down what you need first before you communicate it and and just internalize that. Is that what you really need? Is that what you really want to share? And then being brave enough to ask for what you need. And again, another friend of mine said, if you think you're communicating enough, double your efforts. Yes.
ANDREAS
27:50
So that is a great line. Yes.
JAYNE
27:53
So so it may be something that isn't automatic and you're going to get frustrated with the other people because they're not hearing you. But you know, it's a. Two way street. Ask them what they're hearing, but also kind of practice what you're sharing to make sure that you're really getting to the depth of it. For me, that's hard. For other people, that's hard. Um, but, um, if you do that, these are people that love you. Yes. And it's not like they don't want to, you know, not get you. That was really bad grammar, but. Right. But you understand what I'm saying? Okay. We are way out of time. But I really do hope that if you're listening to our series of joyous journeys over 60, we're setting the stage. I think that's our intent, right? Right.
ANDREAS
28:39
That is our intent. We're setting
JAYNE
28:40
the stage for the transition into the Joyous Journeys. Because unless you're you, unless you embrace the past, unless you recognize that sometimes your feelings are lying to you and you recognize that loneliness is a reality in many situations, but it is not a sentence that you have to live with. There are ways to overcome that. Then you know the launch pad is okay. Now, how do we transition into this next amazing chapter of our lives?
ANDREAS
29:15
That's exactly. And that next chapter will be a maybe be your best chapter yet.
JAYNE
29:21
Absolutely, absolutely. So stay tuned because we're going to continue talking about joyous journeys over 60. I'm Shane Ray, I'm joined by my podcast partner
ANDREAS
29:33
Andrea Stein,
JAYNE
29:35
and we're wishing you a blessed day. Cool.
ANDREAS
29:38
All right.