(00:00:01):
My husband expected me to shoulder nearly all of the responsibilities of parenthood.

(00:00:06):
I had severe mental health challenges in the perinatal period that would have been

(00:00:09):
treatable as support.

(00:00:11):
Instead, I barely slept for over a year due to infant care combined with intrusive thoughts.

(00:00:16):
Everyone I reached out to for help said it was normal.

(00:00:19):
I still carry most of the load.

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Meanwhile, he gets compliments when he does basic parenting tasks in public.

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Sometimes I feel like an accessory to his lifestyle rather than a human being with

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my own worth,

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dignity,

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and abilities.

(00:00:33):
Hi, I'm Zonva Lines.

(00:00:35):
I'm a writer and activist, and this is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

(00:00:39):
I'm here today with my guest, Kate Anthony.

(00:00:41):
Hello.

(00:00:42):
Hi, Kate.

(00:00:44):
I'm so glad to have you.

(00:00:47):
I'm so happy to be here with you.

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So Kate is the host of the New York Times recommended podcast,

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the Divorce Survival Guide podcast,

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and a divorce coach who helps women,

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with children especially,

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decide if they should stay in or leave their marriages.

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And then she either helps them heal their relationships or exit with grace.

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Kate's new book,

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The D Word,

(00:01:07):
is an amazing and comprehensive guide to assessing when and whether it's time to go

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and to getting out.

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You can learn more about Kate at her website, kateanthony.com.

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And I'm also going to put all of her information in the show notes because Kate has a

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an abundance of resources available,

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and she's really just like a one-stop shop for women in troubled relationships.

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So that is why she's here today.

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Yay.

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Thank you.

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All right, Kate, so we're just going to get into it.

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We are seeing a huge wave of women getting divorced, and the frustrating response from men is,

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I have no idea why she left me.

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Everything was perfect.

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She divorced me because I left a dish in the sink.

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And she wouldn't fuck me.

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What a bitch.

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I see this constantly in my inbox from men who think it's just like unreasonable

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for women to have any standards at all.

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And it's clear to me that women are leaving because their partners don't listen to them.

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Like, imagine that.

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But you're the expert on this because you talk to women when they're contemplating leaving,

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when they do leave,

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and I guess in their very rare event where they decide not to leave.

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So why is this happening?

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Such a good question.

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Well,

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so first of all,

(00:02:22):
yeah,

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they're calling it the great divorce,

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like on TikTok and stuff,

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which I think is hilarious.

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First of all, it is great.

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It is so great that women are given the,

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like actually have the opportunity to choose whether they want to stay in the

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dissatisfying or abusive marriages, right?

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And it is this radical concept that we actually get to choose.

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And men are so often blindsided.

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They are always blindsided.

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So the thing that I hear more than anything is,

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I've been telling him for years that I'm unhappy,

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but

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I have laid out all of the things that we,

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you know,

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that need to happen in our relationship in order for it to not feel like I'm suffocating.

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And he didn't listen.

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And I begged him to go to therapy.

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And he said, if I have a problem, then I should go to therapy.

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Right.

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And the list goes on and on and on and on.

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And then when they finally go, okay, I'm done.

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They're like, what?

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I never saw this coming.

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Right.

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It's just like, you never, actually what happened was you never thought I'd actually leave.

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That's actually what my ex-husband said to me when I left him,

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you know,

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15 and a half years ago,

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about two weeks after I finally said,

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I'm actually done.

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He said, came to me and he said, Kate, I am, I'm so sorry.

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I just never thought you'd leave.

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And I was like, oh, so you are you're sorry.

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You knew all along that what the way that you were treating me,

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which was,

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you know,

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very emotionally abusive,

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that you knew that it was wrong all along and you could have stopped earlier,

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but you didn't think you actually had to.

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That's basically what that that was a confession.

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And whether they say it overtly or covertly,

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that's essentially what men are saying when they say they never saw it coming.

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And it's, you know, it's BS.

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They just never thought we'd leave.

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And this is part of the systemic issue that men really don't view us as full humans

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with choice that deserve choice.

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And of course,

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we can see that now playing out on the broader stage with taking away,

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as you know,

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all of our rights and with the growing rate of divorce,

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this great divorce.

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Actually,

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the divorce rate is falling,

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but that's because fewer people are getting married because millennials are like,

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this doesn't work for us.

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Yeah.

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But now we've got it on the political stage and in all of the social fabric with

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the elimination of Roe v.

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Wade.

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And now in Project 2025, having the no-fault divorce being on the chopping block.

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So the sort of covert design of a women shouldn't have choice is now actually

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becoming quite overt.

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Yeah.

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So I have this theory.

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It's like the woman as appliance theory that most heterosexual men just see women as appliances.

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So like, of course, your refrigerator is not supposed to tell you that you're mistreating it.

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Of course, your refrigerator is not going to leave.

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And of course,

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if they threaten to leave,

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you just should replace it with a new appliance because they're all sort of interchangeable.

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And one of the things that I've

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Talked about a lot both on the podcast and in my personal life with my own husband

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is how I think the thing that has made our relationship not rife with misogyny

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isn't actually the fact that he's a feminist or a progressive or like whatever

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label you want to slap on him.

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It's that he likes me and sees me as a person.

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And more and more what I'm seeing with the women I talk to is that it doesn't seem

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like their partners truly like them as people or ever liked them.

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So do heterosexual men actually like women?

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It's such a great question.

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I used to say that to my husband all the time.

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Like, you don't like me.

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You just want,

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what I would say was you just,

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it's like,

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you want me to be a robot that you can program and then reprogram and then

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reprogram when you get bored with that setting and then reprogram,

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you know,

(00:06:56):
much like a,

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like a smart fridge.

(00:06:58):
Right.

(00:06:58):
Yeah.

(00:06:59):
And I, I think it's such a great question.

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I think they love what we provide them.

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They

(00:07:06):
can't live without our labor.

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When they say they can't live without us, they don't mean that.

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What they mean is, I can't live without everything you do for me.

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And I don't, I think you're right.

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I think they don't like us very much.

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I mean,

(00:07:23):
you talk about this in your work about how,

(00:07:25):
you know,

(00:07:26):
heterosexual men,

(00:07:27):
they don't even like vaginas very much,

(00:07:29):
right?

(00:07:30):
Like, it doesn't make sense.

(00:07:35):
And so, you know, they don't like our bodies.

(00:07:38):
What they would like is for our bodies to look more like,

(00:07:42):
I don't know,

(00:07:42):
adolescent boys or something.

(00:07:44):
And so...

(00:07:47):
As you say, like, are they actually heterosexual?

(00:07:52):
But no, I don't think they do.

(00:07:54):
They don't, they don't like us.

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They certainly don't like us.

(00:07:58):
Listen, they like us when we're trad wives.

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They like us when we cook and clean and support them and increase their profit

(00:08:09):
margins by doing all the labor at home.

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Like there are lots of things they like about us that are, that have nothing to do with us.

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humans yeah yeah it's it's really sad okay so

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You and I know what the typical heterosexual marriage looks like because we talk to

(00:08:26):
women all the time.

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But women don't really talk to other women about what their marriages are really

(00:08:34):
like until things are really bad.

(00:08:35):
I think that there's a lot of shame.

(00:08:38):
And,

(00:08:38):
you know,

(00:08:39):
the feedback that I get from readers and listeners all the time is I thought it was

(00:08:42):
just me.

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You know, I thought my husband was the only person using those scripts.

(00:08:46):
So I think that there's really power in women understanding that there is like a

(00:08:50):
standard issue patriarchal marriage that

(00:08:52):
And a standard issue set of male behavior you get with that marriage.

(00:08:57):
So can you talk to me about what that marriage looks like?

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Like what are most of everyone's friends experiencing in their homes?

(00:09:05):
Yeah.

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Well, I think there are varying degrees, right?

(00:09:11):
So there's a spectrum, as with most things.

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But primarily, I think there's disparity, certainly, in household labor, child care.

(00:09:24):
You know,

(00:09:24):
as you said,

(00:09:25):
men are praised when they,

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you know,

(00:09:28):
take their baby to the grocery store.

(00:09:30):
But when women take their baby to the grocery store, not only is it

(00:09:34):
you know, normal.

(00:09:36):
But also if the baby's crying,

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you know,

(00:09:39):
there's shame or whatever,

(00:09:41):
you know,

(00:09:41):
this load of shame on us.

(00:09:44):
So there's this disparity and there's always the disparity in domestic labor.

(00:09:52):
The other thing I think that we don't talk about enough is that we,

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and this is something that I think women,

(00:09:59):
we need to work on,

(00:10:01):
is that we present our sort of caretaking and nurturing as our relationship currency.

(00:10:07):
And then when we have babies,

(00:10:09):
we shift our caretaking and nurturing to our babies and expect our partners to be partners.

(00:10:15):
But we've been caretaking and nurturing them and somewhat treating them like our children,

(00:10:20):
probably from the beginning.

(00:10:21):
And maybe that's a little bit of an unfair decision.

(00:10:26):
sort of shift with no conversation or no, right?

(00:10:30):
Like we need to be more cognizant of what our relationship currency is in the

(00:10:34):
beginnings of our relationships so that when we actually have children,

(00:10:38):
we are already in partnership with these people.

(00:10:43):
You know, because what ends up happening is we're exhausted.

(00:10:45):
Our bodies are a mess.

(00:10:49):
We are caretaking these,

(00:10:51):
you know,

(00:10:52):
these little tiny humans that actually will die if we don't caretake them.

(00:10:57):
And then we don't have the energy to like caretake humans.

(00:11:02):
the person who we want to actually be our equal partner in this.

(00:11:05):
And then they get pissed off and resentful and they resent us.

(00:11:09):
And then they resent the children because they took away their source of nurturing

(00:11:16):
and caretaking.

(00:11:18):
But if we set relationships up,

(00:11:21):
And by the way, this is not our fault.

(00:11:23):
This is how we have been trained.

(00:11:25):
This is the patriarchal structure of it all.

(00:11:28):
But we need to, I think, expose it and examine it.

(00:11:33):
That if we have a different relationship currency to start off with,

(00:11:39):
the shift won't be as jarring or, you know, kind of tear at the foundation of the relationship.

(00:11:48):
And again, I'm not saying that's women's fault.

(00:11:50):
I'm not saying necessarily that's even men's fault.

(00:11:53):
That's patriarchy's fault.

(00:11:55):
And as you and I both know, patriarchy does not serve men and it doesn't serve women.

(00:12:01):
It doesn't serve anybody.

(00:12:02):
Yeah.

(00:12:05):
And it does,

(00:12:05):
you know,

(00:12:05):
quote,

(00:12:06):
serve men in an enormous amount of ways,

(00:12:09):
but ultimately it doesn't.

(00:12:11):
Right.

(00:12:11):
Ultimately, they're suffering.

(00:12:13):
Ultimately, they're dying by suicide at more alarming rates than anyone else.

(00:12:19):
Like there are so many ways in which patriarchy destroys men while purporting to support them.

(00:12:26):
Yeah, I think that's right.

(00:12:28):
And I,

(00:12:29):
you know,

(00:12:29):
I've talked a lot about how patriarchy exists to serve men,

(00:12:32):
but I think what's going on a lot is that men are socialized to be ready for one

(00:12:37):
type of world that doesn't really exist anymore and a type of relationship that

(00:12:43):
women—

(00:12:44):
don't want and never wanted and now have the ability to leave.

(00:12:48):
So I think men get in these relationships and they're shocked.

(00:12:51):
They're shocked that a woman would dare have any expectations at all.

(00:12:56):
They're shocked that a woman would be satisfied with him like rolling on top of her,

(00:13:02):
pumping and dumping for 30 seconds and then going to sleep.

(00:13:06):
They just, they can't believe it that, you

(00:13:11):
And so I think that there's some early socialization stuff that's going on.

(00:13:16):
And then I think women are socialized also to accept it for a long time.

(00:13:20):
And that's the thing that I see a lot is that…

(00:13:24):
The amount of abuse that women tolerate before they really start to understand that

(00:13:29):
their marriages are bad is immense.

(00:13:32):
You know, men want to pretend like, oh, she left me because I wasn't perfect.

(00:13:35):
And it's like,

(00:13:35):
no,

(00:13:36):
like,

(00:13:37):
she left you because you didn't shower for two weeks and you never gave her an

(00:13:40):
orgasm in 20 years and because you were a terrible parent and like a fucking

(00:13:44):
worthless monster.

(00:13:46):
But like, why is it that women in these just objectively terrible marriages—

(00:13:53):
often need so long to see these marriages for what they are and often will even

(00:13:58):
defend their husbands as,

(00:13:59):
oh,

(00:13:59):
he's a nice guy.

(00:14:00):
Like, what's going on there?

(00:14:01):
That's right.

(00:14:02):
Oh, I hear that all the time.

(00:14:04):
Yep.

(00:14:04):
You know, he's a great guy, but he, you know, cheats on me.

(00:14:10):
He's a really great guy, but he has rage and anger issues.

(00:14:14):
And like, what is the bar for a great guy?

(00:14:17):
Like, I don't know what this measure is.

(00:14:21):
We haven't sort of landed on the measure of a great guy.

(00:14:26):
You write a lot about the nice guy, right?

(00:14:28):
These men are not nice at all.

(00:14:32):
But even when they are, even if they are well-meaning, they're still formed by this system.

(00:14:40):
They're formed by misogyny.

(00:14:43):
And, you know, that's not very nice.

(00:14:46):
So...

(00:14:48):
I think we're in a really big shift,

(00:14:50):
and I think it's part of this great divorce,

(00:14:54):
is that,

(00:14:55):
look,

(00:14:55):
when I was going through this 15,

(00:14:57):
16 years ago,

(00:14:58):
when I was starting probably 17 years ago,

(00:15:01):
just asking the question over and over again,

(00:15:03):
should I stay or should I go?

(00:15:04):
How do I decide?

(00:15:05):
How do I make this decision?

(00:15:08):
Maybe there's something better out there.

(00:15:11):
Maybe this isn't right.

(00:15:13):
There was no...

(00:15:15):
There were no podcasts.

(00:15:17):
There was no Instagram.

(00:15:20):
Facebook was in its nascency, right?

(00:15:22):
We were just like, no, but there was no public discourse about this stuff.

(00:15:28):
And so as we have been exposing it for what it is,

(00:15:35):
there's just so much more information,

(00:15:39):
but the information is coming like too late,

(00:15:43):
right?

(00:15:44):
So I think that what we're seeing now is that women have access to information,

(00:15:49):
but the information is sort of coming on the heels of their experience,

(00:15:54):
right?

(00:15:54):
So we have,

(00:15:56):
I think that there is going to be a tipping point where like,

(00:16:00):
I see this with my son,

(00:16:02):
who's Gen Z,

(00:16:03):
he's 19,

(00:16:04):
that they have the information ahead of time and they're doing relationships differently,

(00:16:09):
right?

(00:16:10):
than we did when we started out, right?

(00:16:14):
And so I think that people are overwhelmingly opting out of these relationships

(00:16:19):
right now because they have so much information now.

(00:16:23):
The next phase of this is for them to not opt into them.

(00:16:31):
But of course,

(00:16:32):
as with any systemic change,

(00:16:36):
what's happening is that the,

(00:16:39):
you know,

(00:16:39):
the resistance gets stronger first.

(00:16:43):
Yes.

(00:16:44):
Right.

(00:16:44):
The backlash.

(00:16:45):
Right.

(00:16:46):
The backlash right now is so intense.

(00:16:50):
There is,

(00:16:50):
you know,

(00:16:51):
look,

(00:16:51):
we had like,

(00:16:52):
as I always call,

(00:16:53):
I call him,

(00:16:54):
you know,

(00:16:54):
toxic abuser in chief,

(00:16:56):
um,

(00:16:56):
who is like,

(00:16:58):
you know,

(00:16:58):
I don't know if you want to talk about this on,

(00:17:00):
but,

(00:17:01):
um,

(00:17:02):
This is on a national level.

(00:17:04):
This is on a political level.

(00:17:06):
This is on a very enormous stage that this kind of behavior is tolerated and not

(00:17:14):
just tolerated,

(00:17:14):
but lauded and elected.

(00:17:17):
And so it just gets louder and louder and bigger and bigger.

(00:17:22):
But it's going to have to die out because people are seeing it for what it is,

(00:17:29):
finally,

(00:17:30):
because we're talking about it,

(00:17:31):
because you have a podcast,

(00:17:32):
because I have a podcast,

(00:17:34):
because we're on Instagram and social media,

(00:17:36):
and we have this broader reach rather than just like some random book in a library

(00:17:40):
that somebody might happen upon.

(00:17:43):
You know,

(00:17:43):
I think that one thing that women are stumbling upon is sort of the power of being

(00:17:49):
willing to be disliked.

(00:17:51):
Now, in a patriarchy, being disliked is dangerous because men are violent.

(00:17:56):
But,

(00:17:56):
you know,

(00:17:56):
being willing to,

(00:17:57):
like,

(00:17:57):
have men not really like you have other women think you're nuts,

(00:18:01):
I think there's a lot of power in that.

(00:18:03):
You were getting divorced around the time that I was getting married.

(00:18:07):
And when my husband and I got together about 15 years ago,

(00:18:13):
People thought I was nuts that I had a list of criteria that he had to meet.

(00:18:18):
That's right.

(00:18:19):
They thought it was absolutely insane that he and I were sitting down and

(00:18:24):
memorializing our commitments and our relationship standards and our expectations

(00:18:28):
of each other,

(00:18:29):
you know—

(00:18:32):
just why would you be, you're just crazy and your expectations are unreasonable.

(00:18:36):
And, you know, 15 years later, like I'm fucking obsessed on them.

(00:18:41):
Yeah.

(00:18:41):
I'm, I am fucking obsessed with my husband and insanely in love.

(00:18:45):
And everybody I know is either trapped in a miserable relationship or has left one.

(00:18:51):
And so I often think about that and tell women about that, that like,

(00:18:56):
you know, it's okay to have people think you're being unreasonable.

(00:18:58):
And a person who you're supposed to be with will not see you having basic standards

(00:19:04):
and needs as unreasonable.

(00:19:05):
And that in itself can be its own like kind of litmus test.

(00:19:10):
So I hope more people will move towards just having standards at the beginning of

(00:19:15):
their relationship and really like holding men to some sort of reasonable standard.

(00:19:20):
So I want to talk kind of about

(00:19:23):
your bread and butter because you're a divorce coach,

(00:19:26):
which means you kind of fill in the gaps that like the lawyer,

(00:19:30):
the therapist,

(00:19:31):
the guardian ad litem,

(00:19:32):
all of that don't do.

(00:19:33):
You're really like, you're like the divorce shepherd.

(00:19:36):
You just see women through.

(00:19:37):
Yeah.

(00:19:38):
I, yeah, someone called me a midwife.

(00:19:41):
Yes.

(00:19:42):
Actually,

(00:19:42):
it was a,

(00:19:42):
it was a guy I was dating,

(00:19:43):
which was,

(00:19:44):
he was like,

(00:19:44):
you were like my midwife for my divorce.

(00:19:46):
And I was like, that's not really what I was being in.

(00:19:51):
You know, that's not exactly why I was in the relationship, but thanks.

(00:19:54):
I should have invoiced him, but, but yes.

(00:19:57):
And because there is a gap, right?

(00:19:59):
There's a huge gap between attorneys, first of all,

(00:20:04):
God love them.

(00:20:05):
They're trained in the law.

(00:20:07):
They're not trained in, you know, human emotion and, um, psychology.

(00:20:14):
They're not trained in, um, you know, they're not as attorneys I've seen.

(00:20:19):
I know that'll say,

(00:20:21):
you know,

(00:20:21):
I'm literally the most expensive,

(00:20:23):
uh,

(00:20:24):
untrained therapist you can ever hire.

(00:20:26):
So please don't come in here with your oceans because it's, you know, it's going to cost you.

(00:20:30):
Um,

(00:20:33):
But,

(00:20:34):
you know,

(00:20:34):
the other thing is that attorneys tend not to be in this,

(00:20:39):
generally speaking,

(00:20:40):
tend not to be that great at explaining the process to their clients.

(00:20:45):
And they're not that great at assessing strategy.

(00:20:49):
Right.

(00:20:50):
Um,

(00:20:50):
they're great at,

(00:20:51):
you know,

(00:20:51):
filing motions or,

(00:20:53):
or addressing this or addressing that,

(00:20:54):
but like as a whole and a strategy,

(00:20:56):
um,

(00:20:58):
that is what I do.

(00:20:59):
I help women get into the proper mindset for divorce nine times out of 10,

(00:21:05):
especially when someone's been abused.

(00:21:08):
They're like, it is not fair.

(00:21:09):
He cheated on me.

(00:21:11):
And I'm not sharing.

(00:21:12):
I'm not splitting, you know, custody with him or he's been like this.

(00:21:16):
And, you know, I and like they just want someone to finally hear them.

(00:21:24):
And they get to court and they explode all of this stuff that someone's finally

(00:21:29):
listening and then they look unhinged.

(00:21:32):
Right.

(00:21:32):
Yeah.

(00:21:33):
And then it backfires on them.

(00:21:35):
And so what I do is I work with my clients, especially on mindset.

(00:21:41):
It's a really important thing to understand that,

(00:21:45):
you know,

(00:21:45):
there's a difference between what's legal and what's fair.

(00:21:47):
Right.

(00:21:48):
And most people don't think about it that way.

(00:21:51):
They actually don't know the difference between what's legal and what's fair.

(00:21:54):
They don't know how to have a strategy mindset when going into any form of

(00:22:00):
negotiation for divorce,

(00:22:04):
right?

(00:22:04):
Like we have to leave our emotions at the door, but we also need a place to put them, right?

(00:22:08):
So a coach is a really great place to go vomit all of your

(00:22:13):
Look,

(00:22:13):
your therapist,

(00:22:14):
you could go in and vomit all your stuff and they'll say,

(00:22:16):
thank you very much.

(00:22:17):
It's,

(00:22:17):
you know,

(00:22:18):
it's been 50 minutes and,

(00:22:19):
you know,

(00:22:19):
see you next week for,

(00:22:21):
you know,

(00:22:22):
and an attorney,

(00:22:24):
you're going to go in and vomit all your stuff and they're going to be like,

(00:22:27):
okay,

(00:22:27):
none of that matters.

(00:22:28):
And that'll be $750.

(00:22:29):
And then, you know, a coach can go, okay, let me hold it all.

(00:22:35):
you know, let's vomit it all out.

(00:22:37):
And then I go, okay, this actually matters.

(00:22:40):
This matters.

(00:22:41):
Okay, that doesn't matter.

(00:22:42):
That doesn't matter.

(00:22:43):
That doesn't matter.

(00:22:43):
In the eyes of the law, I get you are valid.

(00:22:46):
Your feelings are valid.

(00:22:47):
But in the eyes of the law, these things do not matter.

(00:22:50):
Here's what does matter.

(00:22:51):
And here is how we're going to strategically organize this

(00:22:55):
to present in court in a way that will actually matter to a judge,

(00:23:00):
possibly,

(00:23:01):
depending on the judge,

(00:23:02):
because the family law system is just not that just,

(00:23:06):
especially when it comes to women.

(00:23:07):
So that is what I do.

(00:23:10):
I will hold all of your anger and your rage and your fear and your terror of

(00:23:16):
hurting your children,

(00:23:17):
and we will strategize how to bring that to your attorney and

(00:23:22):
in a way that's going to save you a fuck ton of money because your attorney doesn't

(00:23:25):
have to sort of parse through all of your emotional baggage that they don't understand.

(00:23:31):
And then we're going to present it to your attorney in a way that they can use,

(00:23:36):
in a way that makes sense to them.

(00:23:39):
I love that because I think the thing that women really need to understand is that

(00:23:42):
the bar for seeing women as crazy is so low that any expression of emotion means

(00:23:49):
you're just a complete nutcase.

(00:23:51):
That's right.

(00:23:52):
And the bar for seeing men as abusive is impossibly high such that he could beat

(00:23:57):
you in front of the judge and the judge might wonder what you did to deserve it.

(00:24:01):
And so we have to be really strategic.

(00:24:04):
That's right.

(00:24:05):
Or he could beat you in front of the judge,

(00:24:07):
and the judge would say,

(00:24:08):
well,

(00:24:09):
he didn't beat the kids,

(00:24:10):
though.

(00:24:10):
Right.

(00:24:10):
So he still gets 50-50 custody.

(00:24:12):
Or why didn't you protect the kids from this beating?

(00:24:15):
Why didn't you leave earlier?

(00:24:16):
That's right.

(00:24:18):
And there are women in jail for more time than their abusers for failure to protect

(00:24:23):
their children.

(00:24:24):
It's outrageous.

(00:24:25):
So I was actually thinking about you last night because—

(00:24:29):
I was working with a reader on her affidavit for her custody and restraining order

(00:24:35):
and all of that.

(00:24:36):
And she's had a really profoundly abusive marriage in every way that a marriage can be abusive.

(00:24:41):
Her husband is just a complete monster.

(00:24:45):
And she sent me like 30,000 words.

(00:24:47):
And buried in those 30,000 words is like one sentence about the abuse.

(00:24:51):
Yeah.

(00:24:55):
And I was like,

(00:24:55):
you know,

(00:24:56):
this is what coaching is really for,

(00:24:58):
is to get to that one sentence,

(00:25:01):
to help you sharpen that sentence so that you can use it to just stab your abusive ex.

(00:25:06):
Mm-hmm.

(00:25:08):
So I think that...

(00:25:10):
We know that the system is biased,

(00:25:12):
and I think that that is starting to make its way into the public consciousness,

(00:25:18):
which is a good thing because now there's a movement to improve it.

(00:25:22):
But one of the things I worry about is I see women saying,

(00:25:26):
well,

(00:25:26):
the system is biased,

(00:25:27):
and so there's no hope.

(00:25:29):
I can't leave.

(00:25:30):
My husband is going to get 50-50 custody, and I'm going to get nothing.

(00:25:34):
They really believe this.

(00:25:35):
They believe they have no right to family property.

(00:25:38):
They believe that there's nothing they can do.

(00:25:41):
Can you speak to that?

(00:25:43):
Because what I see when I interview married women is they're terrified to leave and

(00:25:47):
they think it's all going to be awful.

(00:25:49):
And when I interview divorced women,

(00:25:51):
they are universally thrilled and they wish they had left earlier.

(00:25:55):
So, you know, again, there's bias.

(00:25:58):
But can we give the women who are thinking about leaving some hope?

(00:26:03):
Absolutely.

(00:26:04):
I mean, yes.

(00:26:06):
I do not know anybody who regrets their divorce.

(00:26:11):
Like, I don't think I've ever met anyone who regrets it.

(00:26:15):
If you get to the point where you're so miserable that this is on the table and

(00:26:19):
this is what you're choosing to do and all the hoops that you have to jump through

(00:26:22):
in order to do it,

(00:26:24):
like you're on the other side and you are relieved.

(00:26:27):
I run a group program that's got,

(00:26:29):
you know,

(00:26:29):
I don't know,

(00:26:31):
upwards of 50,

(00:26:33):
60 women in it right now.

(00:26:35):
you know, 50, 60 women at a time in it.

(00:26:37):
And every one of them is going through the process.

(00:26:40):
And every one of them, some of them are on the other side.

(00:26:44):
Not a single one of them regrets it.

(00:26:46):
And they're still in it.

(00:26:47):
Like they're still in the process.

(00:26:49):
But once they get into a separate living space, it's like all of the clouds clear, right?

(00:26:57):
The, you know, they're not being triggered 24 seven and they can actually start to think and,

(00:27:04):
And they can actually start to use their executive function and their, you know, reasoning.

(00:27:09):
And they're like, holy shit, I can't believe I waited so long.

(00:27:14):
This is insanity.

(00:27:14):
I can breathe for the first time.

(00:27:16):
So...

(00:27:20):
If you're in a place where you're really contemplating this and feeling the weight of,

(00:27:26):
but what about my kids?

(00:27:28):
And, you know, am I going to, first of all, am I going to screw up my kids?

(00:27:30):
First of all, it is the only thing that messes up children is toxicity.

(00:27:36):
And that is in-

(00:27:39):
a home or an intact marriage or outside of it.

(00:27:44):
So if by,

(00:27:45):
you know,

(00:27:46):
God's grace,

(00:27:47):
you can have an amicable divorce,

(00:27:50):
it's going to be a lot better than keeping them in a toxic environment.

(00:27:54):
That being said,

(00:27:55):
you don't have control over how your spouse is going to respond and react to this.

(00:28:00):
And there could be a lot of toxicity,

(00:28:02):
but two separate homes gives your children at least one place.

(00:28:09):
And the research backs up that as long as they have one home in which they feel comfortable and

(00:28:18):
confident, loved, nurtured, cared for, they will be okay.

(00:28:23):
They're going to need therapy, all of the things, but who doesn't?

(00:28:27):
But if you provide them this one safe place to land,

(00:28:33):
even if it's only 50% of the time,

(00:28:36):
you give them the gift of perspective and

(00:28:39):
You allow your children to understand the difference between toxicity and calm,

(00:28:48):
between,

(00:28:49):
you know,

(00:28:50):
blame and shame and all of the things,

(00:28:52):
whatever it is that they feel at the other parent's house.

(00:28:55):
When they come to your house, they get the difference, right?

(00:28:59):
As opposed to being mired in it all the time and just sort of feeling like

(00:29:03):
something's wrong,

(00:29:04):
but they don't know what it is.

(00:29:07):
You give them a place for their nervous systems to settle.

(00:29:14):
They have an opportunity to like calm down and be at peace for a period of time.

(00:29:24):
And as things go along,

(00:29:26):
if you can document any of the issues that are happening at the other house and

(00:29:31):
they rise to a level that a judge might make a decision,

(00:29:35):
you know,

(00:29:35):
this is why I also recommend not rushing the divorce,

(00:29:39):
right?

(00:29:39):
Separate for a time because then you give someone either the rope to hang

(00:29:44):
themselves or you give them the opportunity to step up and become a really great parent,

(00:29:49):
even if they haven't been historically.

(00:29:51):
Um,

(00:29:52):
but if you,

(00:29:52):
if you rush through the divorce and you get divorced and you've got a decree,

(00:29:55):
you're going to have to go back to court.

(00:29:56):
You're going to have to file more motions and it's going to be really more

(00:29:59):
difficult to change,

(00:30:00):
um,

(00:30:01):
something that's already legally in place.

(00:30:04):
So give it some time,

(00:30:06):
allow the other parent the opportunity to either figure it out and step up or

(00:30:13):
You get enough rope to hang themselves so that you can get enough evidence and

(00:30:18):
documentation so that when you do go to court,

(00:30:21):
you're actually prepared.

(00:30:23):
I think that's great advice.

(00:30:24):
And I like what you said about giving children a place to regulate their nervous systems.

(00:30:29):
Because what I hear constantly from women is, well, I can't protect her at her dad's house.

(00:30:35):
And we feel such pressure as mothers to make our children's childhoods perfect.

(00:30:40):
And we often fear the unknown more than we fear the familiar awful.

(00:30:46):
And I think that women really need to consider that 50% safety,

(00:30:51):
which is what you get if you get 50-50 custody,

(00:30:54):
is better than no safety at all,

(00:30:57):
which is what you get if your child is living constantly with an abuser.

(00:31:00):
Right.

(00:31:01):
So sometimes, yeah.

(00:31:02):
Yes.

(00:31:03):
The thing that I hear,

(00:31:04):
right,

(00:31:04):
that everyone says is at least I can protect them when I'm,

(00:31:07):
you know,

(00:31:08):
if I'm there all the time.

(00:31:10):
But that's a fallacy.

(00:31:13):
What you're doing is co-signing the behavior.

(00:31:16):
Yeah.

(00:31:16):
You look like you're protecting.

(00:31:17):
You feel like you're protecting, but you're not.

(00:31:20):
Protecting them would be getting them the fuck out, even if it's only half the time.

(00:31:24):
Yeah.

(00:31:25):
Okay.

(00:31:26):
So to that point, you know, I...

(00:31:28):
There are some situations where I think women can protect.

(00:31:32):
Like if a man is just unsafe completely with a child and will leave,

(00:31:35):
you know,

(00:31:35):
a two-year-old unattended in the bathtub,

(00:31:37):
that sort of thing.

(00:31:38):
Yes.

(00:31:38):
Like maybe you're stuck.

(00:31:40):
But when you are working with women and coaching them on should I stay or should I go,

(00:31:46):
what sorts of things should people consider?

(00:31:48):
What are the most important things to think about?

(00:31:50):
Mm-hmm.

(00:31:53):
Well,

(00:31:53):
the very first thing that I have women really look at is getting in touch with

(00:31:58):
their authentic self,

(00:32:01):
capital S self,

(00:32:02):
right?

(00:32:03):
Because so often we've got the magnifying glass on their behavior.

(00:32:08):
Does their behavior rise to the level of like, is it bad enough for me to leave?

(00:32:12):
Like,

(00:32:12):
I don't know,

(00:32:13):
like other men are better,

(00:32:14):
like,

(00:32:15):
you know,

(00:32:15):
other men are worse or,

(00:32:16):
you know,

(00:32:18):
but it's always about them.

(00:32:19):
And so if we just shift it, like, how do I feel?

(00:32:23):
feel in this relationship?

(00:32:26):
How does this relationship actually make me feel?

(00:32:30):
Do I feel my best self or do I feel like the absolute worst version of myself?

(00:32:36):
What does my inner sense of knowing, my intuition, really, really, really know?

(00:32:42):
And it's really hard for us to connect with our intuition when we are being abused,

(00:32:49):
when we have our defenses up all the time,

(00:32:53):
when we're being criticized or anything like that.

(00:32:56):
It's really hard to connect with your sense of self when basically your whole life

(00:33:00):
feels like it's out of alignment with that self.

(00:33:04):
And when you have set up your whole life as a sort of protection mechanism to deny

(00:33:11):
what you kind of know intuitively.

(00:33:16):
But it is the most important thing to do, right?

(00:33:19):
So the first thing I do with my clients is really connect them with like, what do you know?

(00:33:23):
right?

(00:33:23):
No judgment, no criticism.

(00:33:25):
You don't have to do anything about it, but what do you know?

(00:33:29):
And it can be very, very quick, right?

(00:33:31):
It's usually a very fast answer, right?

(00:33:34):
Like, I know this is wrong.

(00:33:36):
Okay, great.

(00:33:38):
What are we going to do about that, right?

(00:33:40):
Then we're going to do some education about

(00:33:43):
you know, I will send them your articles.

(00:33:46):
I will send them, you know, certainly my book, right?

(00:33:49):
Information to be like,

(00:33:50):
actually,

(00:33:50):
there's a name for what you're experiencing and it is actually not okay.

(00:33:56):
So we'll do the internal work and then we'll start looking at the relationship.

(00:34:00):
I have a great healthy relationship checklist.

(00:34:03):
I'll give it to you if you want.

(00:34:04):
We can put it in the show notes.

(00:34:06):
It's a healthy relationship checklist.

(00:34:08):
And it's all about like, how do I feel in this relationship?

(00:34:10):
Do I feel emotionally safe?

(00:34:12):
Do I feel physically safe?

(00:34:13):
Right.

(00:34:14):
Things like that, that are pretty objectively clear.

(00:34:18):
And then you can score it.

(00:34:22):
Right.

(00:34:22):
Like I actually, it's like, it's a quiz that you can just score yourself.

(00:34:25):
Oh my God.

(00:34:26):
I love to be able to score other people.

(00:34:28):
That's just my favorite thing.

(00:34:29):
Yes.

(00:34:32):
Um,

(00:34:33):
you know,

(00:34:33):
and so,

(00:34:34):
you know,

(00:34:35):
and then we'll,

(00:34:35):
and then obviously as we move down the line,

(00:34:38):
we get deeper and more in,

(00:34:39):
you know,

(00:34:39):
intense,

(00:34:40):
um,

(00:34:41):
to the work because then it's like you start to pull back the layers and you start

(00:34:44):
to uncover things.

(00:34:46):
And when you uncover them, then you have to do the hard work of really actually examining it.

(00:34:51):
And that's the hard work,

(00:34:52):
but that's also the work that a good therapist or coach who specializes in this area,

(00:35:00):
and I really actually want to highlight that because it's really important to work

(00:35:05):
with someone who has a specialty in what it is that you are dealing with.

(00:35:10):
Not all therapists are created equally.

(00:35:13):
There is zero training on recognizing the signs of domestic violence in basic therapy training.

(00:35:19):
So,

(00:35:21):
you know,

(00:35:21):
so many people go to couples therapy thinking a therapist is going to like get,

(00:35:25):
understand what's going on and,

(00:35:27):
you know,

(00:35:28):
and they're not trained to,

(00:35:29):
and they're not going to,

(00:35:31):
unless they actually have training in this.

(00:35:33):
And in which case they won't see you as a couple,

(00:35:36):
if they recognize abuse,

(00:35:37):
they will tell you that that is,

(00:35:39):
you know,

(00:35:39):
contraindicated and,

(00:35:41):
and send you resources.

(00:35:43):
So you need to be working with someone who has a specialty in this area to,

(00:35:48):
Otherwise, they can do a lot more damage.

(00:35:51):
I love how you focus on the woman because I think that we have this idea that women

(00:35:57):
have to earn the right to leave.

(00:35:58):
And they have to earn the right to leave by proving that he is bad enough.

(00:36:02):
But women are actually whole people on their own.

(00:36:05):
And you can just leave if you're unhappy.

(00:36:07):
You don't have to prove to someone else that you're allowed to do it because you're

(00:36:11):
allowed to have your own life.

(00:36:13):
Yes.

(00:36:14):
And by the way, even if there's no abuse, there's nothing wrong.

(00:36:21):
If you don't want to be married anymore, you get to say, it's okay.

(00:36:25):
That's it.

(00:36:27):
Okay.

(00:36:27):
So a reality check about marriage.

(00:36:29):
Because I know that one of the things you do is you coach women through whether

(00:36:32):
they can stay and fix their marriage or leave and go build a new life.

(00:36:39):
how many actually stay and successfully fix their marriage, Kate?

(00:36:42):
Like how many broken marriages can really be fixed?

(00:36:46):
Yeah.

(00:36:47):
Look,

(00:36:47):
at the end of the day,

(00:36:48):
people in really healthy marriages,

(00:36:51):
in really healthy and happy marriages,

(00:36:53):
you can attest to this,

(00:36:54):
Zahn,

(00:36:54):
how many times have you woken up in the middle of the night and thought,

(00:36:57):
should I stay or should I go?

(00:36:59):
Right.

(00:36:59):
Yeah.

(00:37:00):
Is it right?

(00:37:01):
Like never, right?

(00:37:02):
You're like,

(00:37:03):
I mean,

(00:37:03):
even if Jeff pisses you off,

(00:37:05):
you pretty much wake up every morning and go,

(00:37:07):
thank God I got this guy,

(00:37:09):
right?

(00:37:10):
You're obsessed with him.

(00:37:12):
So if you're waking up in the middle of the night and you're like, God, I don't know.

(00:37:17):
I'm agonizing over this.

(00:37:19):
And you're coming to my website or you're searching for podcasts and you're

(00:37:22):
listening to this podcast or readings on,

(00:37:25):
probably there's something pretty wrong.

(00:37:29):
right?

(00:37:30):
That's already the bar.

(00:37:31):
So most of the women I work with end up leaving,

(00:37:33):
not because I forced them to,

(00:37:36):
but because they're already coming.

(00:37:38):
They're looking for permission.

(00:37:39):
They're looking for, is this bad enough?

(00:37:41):
They're looking for, do I get to say?

(00:37:44):
And so most of my clients do end up leaving.

(00:37:48):
I have had a few that have stayed.

(00:37:49):
The ones that have stayed have been because their husbands have done a complete 180.

(00:37:59):
Now, you and I both know that as soon as we say we're done, they immediately see the light.

(00:38:05):
They, you know, read all the books.

(00:38:09):
They, you know, get into therapy, whatever it takes.

(00:38:12):
And that usually that lasts maybe two to three months if we're lucky.

(00:38:18):
Because they're usually doing all those things as a tactic, right?

(00:38:22):
Not because they've actually changed.

(00:38:24):
So I've had a few clients who have really felt confident that their husbands really

(00:38:30):
did change and that it was real and that they were going to give it another chance.

(00:38:35):
I actually...

(00:38:37):
I mean, and I say like maybe two to three in the last 12 years.

(00:38:42):
I haven't heard back from them.

(00:38:44):
So I can't tell you whether this is, you know, the turnaround was real or not.

(00:38:52):
So, I mean, I really don't know.

(00:38:54):
I really don't know.

(00:38:55):
But generally speaking, it's the odds are not good.

(00:39:01):
I mean,

(00:39:03):
Yeah.

(00:39:05):
You know,

(00:39:05):
three in 12 years,

(00:39:07):
but you haven't heard back from any of them,

(00:39:09):
is a very ringing endorsement for the fixability of broken marriages.

(00:39:13):
Yeah, that's right.

(00:39:14):
That's right.

(00:39:15):
Yeah.

(00:39:17):
That's really, really alarmingly bad.

(00:39:20):
Okay.

(00:39:20):
So, Kate, you mentioned dating someone.

(00:39:24):
So, after all you've seen, you date.

(00:39:26):
Yeah.

(00:39:28):
So no, no, no, you don't.

(00:39:31):
You're done with that.

(00:39:33):
When did I say that?

(00:39:34):
No, I don't.

(00:39:36):
I may have hallucinated it.

(00:39:39):
Oh, I, you know, I, I, I don't, I, here's the thing.

(00:39:43):
I will,

(00:39:43):
I will say like,

(00:39:44):
maybe,

(00:39:44):
maybe I told you this,

(00:39:45):
I don't know,

(00:39:45):
like a month or so ago,

(00:39:46):
um,

(00:39:48):
my next door neighbor,

(00:39:49):
my dear,

(00:39:50):
dear friend,

(00:39:50):
uh,

(00:39:51):
did set me up with someone and it was a good two weeks of,

(00:39:57):
you know,

(00:39:57):
conversations.

(00:39:58):
I, we never met in person.

(00:40:00):
We zoomed.

(00:40:00):
He was in another city, another state, um,

(00:40:04):
Uh,

(00:40:05):
but after,

(00:40:06):
you know,

(00:40:06):
two weeks of phone calls in which I just was like listening and nodding and okay.

(00:40:12):
And not being asked a lot.

(00:40:13):
I was like, I, I got, nope.

(00:40:14):
Yeah.

(00:40:15):
Yeah.

(00:40:17):
Nope.

(00:40:18):
Uh,

(00:40:18):
and I also live in Los Angeles and I am 53 and this is,

(00:40:23):
you know,

(00:40:24):
men my age like to date women who are in their thirties.

(00:40:28):
Um, if that, but I think they prefer to date women in their twenties.

(00:40:30):
But,

(00:40:31):
um,

(00:40:32):
so,

(00:40:32):
you know,

(00:40:33):
there aren't a lot of men out there that I have met certainly who are interested in

(00:40:38):
dating somebody,

(00:40:40):
um,

(00:40:41):
my age.

(00:40:43):
Um, but also who, I mean, given what I do as well, it's a bit of a, um, it's really hard.

(00:40:52):
They don't like what I do.

(00:40:53):
Yeah.

(00:40:54):
But I think that's, I mean, that's a flag because.

(00:40:57):
Oh, a hundred percent.

(00:40:58):
Cause like,

(00:41:00):
cause good men hear,

(00:41:02):
well,

(00:41:02):
I help women get out of bad marriages and they think,

(00:41:05):
well,

(00:41:06):
I want a good marriage.

(00:41:07):
And

(00:41:07):
And so they don't feel defensive.

(00:41:08):
It's like the men who get really mad when I talk about how most men are bad in bed.

(00:41:13):
And they're like, well, most women don't have sex with their husbands enough.

(00:41:17):
It's like,

(00:41:17):
bro,

(00:41:18):
why are you bragging about not being able to make a woman want to have sex with you?

(00:41:23):
You should be on my side.

(00:41:25):
You should be on the side of, oh, well, I'm not like them.

(00:41:27):
I can make a woman scream.

(00:41:29):
It's kind of the same thing.

(00:41:30):
Right.

(00:41:32):
That's right.

(00:41:32):
Exactly.

(00:41:33):
So,

(00:41:33):
you know,

(00:41:34):
if a man is intimidated or,

(00:41:35):
you know,

(00:41:38):
yeah,

(00:41:39):
gets defensive about what I do,

(00:41:41):
then like,

(00:41:41):
OK,

(00:41:41):
bye.

(00:41:42):
Like, I'm sorry.

(00:41:43):
I'm also, you know, I'm successful in my career.

(00:41:46):
I run my own business.

(00:41:48):
If you're not adding to my life, like my life is great.

(00:41:51):
I've got, you know, a great kid.

(00:41:53):
I've got a lot of animals.

(00:41:55):
Yeah.

(00:41:55):
Um, I've got some plants, not as many as you, but I've, you know, I've got some plants.

(00:41:59):
You're my, you're my guru.

(00:42:01):
Um, that, uh, um, uh, what's it called?

(00:42:05):
The, um, anyway, it's growing back.

(00:42:08):
Um, I don't know.

(00:42:09):
I don't know what it is.

(00:42:10):
That's growing back in your house, Kate.

(00:42:13):
I, I sends on pictures of my plants and tell her whether it's too late or not.

(00:42:16):
And she tells me no.

(00:42:17):
And she tells me how to fix them and, and it's working.

(00:42:20):
Um, so listen, you know, I,

(00:42:24):
My life is really good.

(00:42:25):
And if someone is going to come into it, there better be an enhancement to it.

(00:42:31):
Yeah.

(00:42:31):
And I've yet to find that.

(00:42:33):
Well,

(00:42:33):
I think it's interesting because you're attributing a lot of this to like personal

(00:42:38):
characteristics of like you're in your 50s and you're successful and you're making

(00:42:41):
money and you're counseling women.

(00:42:42):
But I actually don't think it's because of your

(00:42:45):
personal characteristics that it's hard to find someone decent to date.

(00:42:48):
It's that most men have never learned to be likable,

(00:42:51):
to be competent in bed,

(00:42:54):
to be emotionally intelligent,

(00:42:56):
to be any of the things that might make a woman want to voluntarily spend time with them.

(00:43:01):
And so the dating pool of quality men is really narrow.

(00:43:05):
And if women are really going to get out of these bad relationships,

(00:43:09):
then we have to accept that like most women are going to be single because most men

(00:43:14):
suck ass.

(00:43:16):
And,

(00:43:16):
you know,

(00:43:17):
and there are some,

(00:43:18):
like,

(00:43:18):
really spectacular men who are never offended when I say most men suck ass because,

(00:43:25):
like,

(00:43:25):
they know.

(00:43:25):
That's right.

(00:43:27):
That's right.

(00:43:28):
And you can introduce me to them.

(00:43:29):
You can introduce me to those men.

(00:43:32):
You know, and I appreciate you saying that.

(00:43:34):
And I think that,

(00:43:34):
you know,

(00:43:35):
when I say like I'm 53 and all of my personal attributes,

(00:43:39):
what I mean is like most men don't aren't looking for that in their partner,

(00:43:43):
which means that they actually suck.

(00:43:45):
Yeah, exactly.

(00:43:46):
Exactly.

(00:43:47):
And like,

(00:43:47):
I just want to like,

(00:43:49):
I want to add again to that because,

(00:43:52):
you know,

(00:43:52):
I have like male listeners and I have a lot of women who like make their partners

(00:43:56):
listen to me at gunpoint.

(00:43:58):
If you are feeling defensive in response to this,

(00:44:03):
it's because you are identifying with the low-value men.

(00:44:07):
And, like, why would you want to do that?

(00:44:09):
Why would you not want to identify with the kind of men that women actually want to

(00:44:13):
be with who are,

(00:44:14):
you know,

(00:44:15):
emotionally intelligent,

(00:44:17):
good at sex,

(00:44:18):
good at parenting if they have kids?

(00:44:20):
Yeah.

(00:44:20):
you know, good at having a meaningful relationship.

(00:44:23):
Like, this is what men should want to identify with.

(00:44:25):
So it's so weird to me how many men just immediately out themselves with,

(00:44:30):
well,

(00:44:30):
you hate men because you're speaking badly about the men who,

(00:44:33):
like,

(00:44:33):
stink and suck.

(00:44:36):
Like, why do you want to be that?

(00:44:38):
Well, here's the thing is that real change is going to take men holding each other to account.

(00:44:44):
Yeah.

(00:44:46):
Because until—

(00:44:48):
the,

(00:44:49):
until the quote,

(00:44:50):
really good men,

(00:44:50):
um,

(00:44:52):
stand up and say to their,

(00:44:53):
to their brethren,

(00:44:55):
dude,

(00:44:56):
like you like learn how to have sex.

(00:44:59):
You're, you're, you're bad at it.

(00:45:01):
Um,

(00:45:01):
or,

(00:45:02):
you know,

(00:45:02):
that's not how you treat women or,

(00:45:05):
you know,

(00:45:05):
whatever else it is like they,

(00:45:08):
until men are willing to hold other men to account,

(00:45:11):
we're not really going to get as far as we need to get.

(00:45:15):
Yeah.

(00:45:16):
Yeah.

(00:45:16):
I mean, I think that's the core.

(00:45:18):
And,

(00:45:18):
you know,

(00:45:20):
I believe that social change has historically only happened when oppressive

(00:45:24):
behavior becomes socially unacceptable.

(00:45:27):
Like racism in schools did not end when schools were integrated.

(00:45:32):
Right.

(00:45:33):
It just became less socially acceptable.

(00:45:35):
So racists had to find other forms of racism.

(00:45:38):
And I think that it is very similar with heterosexual marriage,

(00:45:42):
that there is a large swath of men who don't really like women,

(00:45:46):
who just see them as fuck dolls,

(00:45:48):
and they are only going to begin changing their behavior when that behavior renders

(00:45:53):
a man unfuckable,

(00:45:54):
when like the only way to get a relationship with a woman is to not be a piece of shit.

(00:46:01):
That's right.

(00:46:02):
And so we have to,

(00:46:03):
you know,

(00:46:04):
men aren't changing,

(00:46:05):
but women can control who they have relationships with.

(00:46:08):
And so we really have to like set the bar high.

(00:46:12):
All right.

(00:46:13):
So if you could give women who are planning to leave their marriage just one piece

(00:46:19):
of information that you think they need to have or a myth that you need to dispel,

(00:46:25):
what would it be?

(00:46:28):
I think the myth that, well, what I want women to know is that they deserve to be happy.

(00:46:37):
And if there are things in their marriage that are really causing them distress,

(00:46:43):
they don't have to suffer anymore.

(00:46:46):
And that happiness is possible outside.

(00:46:49):
This is radical, right?

(00:46:51):
Radical.

(00:46:52):
Happiness is absolutely possible for women outside of relationships with men.

(00:46:59):
And it goes against everything we've been taught since very, very, very, very, very young.

(00:47:04):
It's not only possible, it's actually, you know, sometimes preferable.

(00:47:10):
Sometimes.

(00:47:11):
Sometimes.

(00:47:13):
Yeah, right.

(00:47:16):
So we, you know, we deserve to be happy.

(00:47:20):
You,

(00:47:20):
if you're listening and you're questioning this,

(00:47:23):
you deserve to be happy and your children deserve a happy mother.

(00:47:28):
A mother who is not stressed and,

(00:47:31):
you know,

(00:47:31):
beaten down and has no self-esteem anymore and can't figure out what the fuck

(00:47:37):
happened to her.

(00:47:39):
Right?

(00:47:39):
That's not, that is not, you know, that is not liberated motherhood in any sense.

(00:47:48):
And your children deserve a mother who is liberated and you deserve to be happy.

(00:47:55):
I think that's great.

(00:47:56):
And so on the other end of this,

(00:47:59):
you have seen how the myriad of red flags that men wave manifest over the course of

(00:48:05):
a relationship.

(00:48:07):
What is your advice at the beginning of a relationship?

(00:48:09):
What do you wish women knew or could internalize?

(00:48:14):
I wish women would go very, very slowly into new relationships.

(00:48:18):
First of all,

(00:48:19):
I wish everyone would take,

(00:48:21):
after getting out of a bad relationship,

(00:48:22):
take a year to heal.

(00:48:25):
Dr.

(00:48:25):
Romani talks about this,

(00:48:26):
and she has such great information and advice on this,

(00:48:30):
especially in her newest book,

(00:48:33):
because we need a year.

(00:48:35):
You need a year to go through all the seasons to really heal yourself.

(00:48:39):
And then anyone who you start to date after that period of healing,

(00:48:46):
will have to get through kind of layers of healed membrane.

(00:48:51):
And you will become very protective of your healed self,

(00:48:56):
such that you will notice things in ways that you have not before.

(00:49:00):
If you dive right into the dating pool,

(00:49:02):
you dive right into relationships,

(00:49:04):
you get sucked back into that vortex.

(00:49:08):
This is why...

(00:49:11):
Second, so the divorce rate for first marriages hovers around 50%.

(00:49:16):
For second marriages, it's about 68%.

(00:49:20):
For third marriages, it's 74%.

(00:49:22):
We're getting worse at it because we jump right in.

(00:49:26):
We don't do the healing work.

(00:49:28):
We are using the same picker.

(00:49:31):
We've got to heal the picker before we start choosing again.

(00:49:35):
So I really,

(00:49:36):
really,

(00:49:37):
really want women to take the time to heal themselves so that when they start

(00:49:43):
dating again,

(00:49:44):
they are really,

(00:49:46):
really discerning.

(00:49:47):
And that requires going slowly and intentionally into any new dating or relationships.

(00:49:55):
And it sucks.

(00:49:56):
And it's not romantic.

(00:49:57):
It's not exciting.

(00:49:58):
And it's not like full of fireworks and no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

(00:50:01):
But that shit dies.

(00:50:04):
And you'll be left exactly where you are now.

(00:50:07):
So,

(00:50:08):
you know,

(00:50:08):
the intentionality with which you went into your marriage is exactly what I want

(00:50:13):
for everybody.

(00:50:14):
I want that level of intentionality.

(00:50:18):
And that's the only way you're going to actually heal and have a better

(00:50:23):
relationship on the other side if you choose to at all.

(00:50:27):
Yeah.

(00:50:27):
So I would tell listeners,

(00:50:29):
I met my husband about two years after I got out of a really bad relationship.

(00:50:35):
Not an abusive one.

(00:50:36):
Hi, Jessie.

(00:50:36):
You might be listening.

(00:50:38):
But just we were like really ill-suited to each other.

(00:50:41):
And I was just destroyed by the end of this relationship.

(00:50:46):
And I made a list of the non-negotiables that I wanted.

(00:50:52):
And the way I assessed whether my partners met this list was not to ask them.

(00:50:57):
Because then they'll all say, oh, yeah, of course I'm a feminist.

(00:50:59):
Of course I love women.

(00:51:00):
Of course I care about good sex.

(00:51:03):
I looked at behavior over a long period of time.

(00:51:06):
And I think that making what you need objective and measurable,

(00:51:11):
rather than saying I want someone who's nice,

(00:51:13):
identifying what nice means,

(00:51:16):
and then looking at behavior to assess that is really important.

(00:51:20):
the only way that it's going to work in a profoundly broken society.

(00:51:23):
And even then, a lot of men are going to sneak through.

(00:51:26):
So like you said, you just have to move slowly.

(00:51:29):
So the final thing I have for you is we have an advice question from a reader.

(00:51:33):
So I always do this when I have a guest,

(00:51:35):
and Kate and I are going to kind of brainstorm an answer to this together and see

(00:51:39):
what we can come up with.

(00:51:41):
So here's this reader's question.

(00:51:43):
Is there anything women can do to counter the misogyny in the family court system?

(00:51:49):
And can we ever use misogyny to our advantage?

(00:51:54):
Wow.

(00:51:55):
Okay.

(00:51:58):
So the first part of the question is absolutely.

(00:52:02):
And part of that is what we were talking about earlier about

(00:52:08):
having a strategy mindset and understanding that when women show emotion,

(00:52:16):
particularly in court,

(00:52:18):
we are deemed crazy and unstable.

(00:52:21):
And it sucks, but it's the fact of the system.

(00:52:26):
And so we have got to have some level of acceptance of the fact that that is the

(00:52:31):
system we're in,

(00:52:32):
right?

(00:52:33):
Because if you're not changing the system when you're

(00:52:38):
when you're actually trying to get something from it, right?

(00:52:42):
Your activism is welcome when you're on the other side.

(00:52:46):
But the first thing you have to do is understand and accept what system you're in

(00:52:52):
and then have a completely clear perspective

(00:52:54):
clear-headed strategy,

(00:52:56):
understanding what's legal versus what's fair,

(00:53:00):
having this strategy mindset,

(00:53:02):
and a lot of patience because this is not a fair system and it takes a very long time.

(00:53:08):
And if you want things to unfold in your favor, not rushing it is going to be a huge part of it.

(00:53:15):
So the

(00:53:18):
Those I have my seven step divorce mindset reset,

(00:53:21):
which is,

(00:53:22):
you know,

(00:53:22):
sort of outlines all of this stuff,

(00:53:24):
which is really important.

(00:53:27):
So that's sort of how you work within it.

(00:53:31):
Using it to your advantage.

(00:53:33):
I don't know.

(00:53:34):
Zahn, what do you think?

(00:53:35):
I'm going to toss that to you.

(00:53:36):
I liked what you said about recognizing the system that you're in.

(00:53:40):
Because,

(00:53:41):
you know,

(00:53:41):
people often say,

(00:53:42):
like,

(00:53:42):
aren't you making women feel bad when they see misogyny everywhere and when they

(00:53:48):
see most men as sexist and most relationships as sexist?

(00:53:50):
And I actually think the answer is no, because then you can stop blaming yourself.

(00:53:55):
You can stop saying, well, I'm not a good enough person, partner, wife.

(00:53:58):
I've caused this to happen.

(00:53:59):
Yeah.

(00:54:00):
And I think the same is true in the court system.

(00:54:03):
And something that I hear quite frequently from women that is very alarming is,

(00:54:09):
well,

(00:54:09):
I'm going to teach the system a lesson.

(00:54:11):
I'm going to show how much it's hurt me by disobeying this court order.

(00:54:15):
And you're not going to teach the system a lesson.

(00:54:18):
The system is the system.

(00:54:20):
And so you just have to—

(00:54:22):
know what you're working with.

(00:54:24):
And I do think that there are some ways that you can use misogyny to your advantage

(00:54:28):
while still remembering that misogyny is a system designed to disadvantage women

(00:54:32):
and there is no opt-out button.

(00:54:34):
But if you understand what misogyny wants from you,

(00:54:40):
if you understand what patriarchy says a good mother looks and acts and talks like,

(00:54:46):
then you can use that to inform your strategy.

(00:54:50):
You know, you have to seem gentle and kind and not combative and

(00:54:55):
Not weird, unfortunately.

(00:54:56):
And the more you can conform to the image of what a good mother should be and do,

(00:55:02):
especially if you're a working mother,

(00:55:04):
especially if,

(00:55:05):
you know,

(00:55:06):
your partner is throwing your feminism in your face,

(00:55:08):
I think the more...

(00:55:11):
you will have an advantage.

(00:55:13):
And it's really easy to do because we're all socialized to do that shit anyway.

(00:55:17):
We all know what misogyny wants from us, even if we have rejected it.

(00:55:22):
So,

(00:55:23):
you know,

(00:55:23):
like you said,

(00:55:23):
like not trying to fight the system while you're in it and stepping back and thinking,

(00:55:30):
how do I need to be perceived?

(00:55:33):
And what do I need to do to be perceived that way?

(00:55:37):
I think that's brilliant.

(00:55:38):
As always, Zahn, you're brilliant.

(00:55:41):
I think it's absolutely true, right?

(00:55:43):
Down to like, how do I dress for court?

(00:55:44):
Yes.

(00:55:45):
Right?

(00:55:46):
Because it should be, I dress however the fuck I want.

(00:55:49):
No, misogyny dictates that there's a certain way that you have to dress for court.

(00:55:54):
And it's going to be understated and it's going to be simple and it's not going to

(00:55:58):
call any attention to any of your body parts,

(00:56:00):
right?

(00:56:01):
And so that is how we...

(00:56:04):
um use misogyny to our advantage as it were yeah um i think that's great i would

(00:56:11):
also tell people you have to do what the court tells you to do um the fastest path

(00:56:17):
to losing custody of your children and really the only way that normal non-abusive

(00:56:23):
mothers typically lose custody of their children is by disobeying court orders um

(00:56:28):
you just can't do it you can't not show up for court you can't disobey the court

(00:56:32):
order you can't fight with the judge

(00:56:34):
You can't do any of that.

(00:56:35):
It's not fair.

(00:56:36):
But, you know, you can have a fair outcome if you just do what you're told as much as it sucks.

(00:56:45):
And I would also ask yourself,

(00:56:48):
like,

(00:56:49):
in the eyes of society,

(00:56:51):
not in my eyes or Kate's eyes or the eyes of feminism—

(00:56:56):
What are the most important points here?

(00:56:58):
So a typical judge is not going to care that there's household labor inequality,

(00:57:03):
you know,

(00:57:03):
that you gave up your career for whatever.

(00:57:06):
They're going to care about physical violence.

(00:57:07):
They're going to care about extreme abuse of the kids.

(00:57:10):
You know, they are going to care if you're the primary caregiver about like what that meant.

(00:57:14):
You know, you can talk about maintaining the status quo and all of that.

(00:57:19):
But you really need to focus on the stuff that society cares about and leave all

(00:57:23):
the other stuff out because it's a distraction.

(00:57:25):
You know, a judge is going to skim your case.

(00:57:28):
And if they see he hit me,

(00:57:30):
he punched me,

(00:57:31):
he kicked me,

(00:57:32):
he screamed at the kids,

(00:57:32):
he broke the child's arm,

(00:57:33):
whatever,

(00:57:35):
that's much more useful than 11 pages and one sentence about,

(00:57:39):
oh,

(00:57:39):
and by the way,

(00:57:40):
he has guns.

(00:57:42):
Right.

(00:57:42):
And also,

(00:57:43):
by the way,

(00:57:43):
the most distressing part about this is that even then,

(00:57:48):
sometimes the court doesn't care.

(00:57:50):
Yeah.

(00:57:50):
We've got a case right now in Colorado, Rachel Pickerel Hawkins.

(00:57:54):
She refused...

(00:58:00):
reunification therapy for her children with her husband or her ex-husband.

(00:58:05):
Kate, I'm going to interrupt you real quick.

(00:58:07):
Can you just explain like super briefly what reunification therapy is?

(00:58:10):
Because I think a lot of people don't know.

(00:58:12):
Yes.

(00:58:13):
Okay.

(00:58:14):
Reunification therapy is,

(00:58:18):
quote,

(00:58:18):
therapy that very often is used as a way to,

(00:58:23):
quote,

(00:58:24):
reunify children with their abusers.

(00:58:29):
And there is a whole it's a rabbit hole to go down,

(00:58:34):
but very,

(00:58:35):
very often it is used in conjunction with claims of parental alienation.

(00:58:43):
which is a parental alienation syndrome was coined by this guy,

(00:58:49):
quote,

(00:58:50):
Dr.

(00:58:50):
Richard Gardner,

(00:58:51):
who was an absolute quack and he's been debunked.

(00:58:55):
He essentially accused children of,

(00:59:01):
I can't,

(00:59:02):
I always never get it right because it always is so complicated and convoluted,

(00:59:06):
but essentially he was a child sexual assault apologist.

(00:59:10):
Oh my God.

(00:59:11):
in many ways and blaming the children for, quote, seducing their rapists.

(00:59:17):
So everything that Richard Gardner has done should be absolutely debunked.

(00:59:21):
But unfortunately, it has become a cornerstone of the family court system.

(00:59:25):
So

(00:59:26):
So as soon as somebody says,

(00:59:28):
oh,

(00:59:28):
but my wife is alienating my children,

(00:59:32):
then we get into it immediately.

(00:59:37):
Right.

(00:59:37):
What parents are usually doing is trying to protect their children from abusers.

(00:59:42):
But as soon as they're accused of alienation,

(00:59:45):
then it sort of kickstarts this whole system in the family court system,

(00:59:49):
which is really dangerous and can very often include reunification therapy.

(00:59:54):
And this is where children are forced into often camps where they're like go away

(01:00:00):
for days at a time and or months at a time and are forced into intensive therapy

(01:00:05):
with parents who have abused them,

(01:00:08):
often sexually abused them,

(01:00:10):
often physically abused them.

(01:00:12):
And so in Colorado,

(01:00:15):
there is a woman,

(01:00:16):
Rachel Pickerel Hawkins,

(01:00:18):
whose ex-husband is accused of,

(01:00:21):
and I think there is evidence to support that he raped his child or children or

(01:00:31):
sexually abused them.

(01:00:34):
And so she refused to let them go into therapy with him.

(01:00:38):
And so now she is doing jail time.

(01:00:40):
And she has to go every weekend into jail.

(01:00:43):
So these are ways in which the family court system can be so,

(01:00:51):
so unfair and biased against women.

(01:00:54):
And I don't want to scare anyone.

(01:00:56):
And I don't want people to freak out because these incidents are rare, right?

(01:01:01):
But they're real.

(01:01:03):
Even if you have evidence of abuse,

(01:01:05):
even if it has been proven,

(01:01:07):
very often you will see a judge say,

(01:01:10):
well,

(01:01:11):
he did it once and he hasn't done it in a long time.

(01:01:14):
So, you know, we're going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

(01:01:18):
Or, well, he abused you and raped you, but he never actually did it with the children.

(01:01:23):
Or he did it to one child, but not the other.

(01:01:25):
So it's okay.

(01:01:27):
Right?

(01:01:27):
These are ways in which the family court system is really dangerous.

(01:01:33):
Um...

(01:01:34):
And again,

(01:01:34):
I don't want to freak people out because it's not always this dangerous,

(01:01:38):
but we have to find really strategic ways to work with it and work within it so

(01:01:45):
that we can try to avoid something like this at all costs.

(01:01:50):
And I do think that she will be vindicated.

(01:01:53):
Rachel Pickle Hawkins will be vindicated.

(01:01:55):
I happen to know that the governor of Colorado is like interested in looking at these,

(01:02:04):
you know,

(01:02:04):
the laws that allow these kinds of things.

(01:02:05):
And there is systemic change happening.

(01:02:08):
But, you know, for example, in the Violence Against Women Act,

(01:02:15):
There are provisions now that are against these reunification camps,

(01:02:20):
but they have to be legislated in every state individually.

(01:02:24):
And even when they are, they're hard to enforce.

(01:02:29):
I don't know if that answered any any question.

(01:02:31):
I think that's helpful.

(01:02:32):
And I'm also I will put in the show notes.

(01:02:35):
There are a couple of investigative journalists who have been working specifically

(01:02:38):
on this issue,

(01:02:39):
one of whom I'm hoping to have on the show in a couple of months.

(01:02:43):
So I will I will put some information in the show notes for people who want to

(01:02:46):
learn more about this,

(01:02:48):
because it really is quite a rabbit hole.

(01:02:50):
And the level of abuse that children are exposed to in these reunification camps is

(01:02:54):
just shocking.

(01:02:56):
shocking yeah and also a lot of these investigative journalists unfortunately um

(01:03:00):
get into it and then they have to get out because it's so toxic and exhausting yes

(01:03:06):
um you know there are other people there's a there's a group of us that are you

(01:03:10):
know kind of working behind the scenes to try and get legislation and all sorts of

(01:03:14):
stuff changed and um you know doing amazing work but it is exhausting and it is um

(01:03:19):
disheartening and it is emotionally taxing

(01:03:23):
Yeah, it's just, all right.

(01:03:25):
Well, on that note.

(01:03:26):
Anyway, on that note.

(01:03:28):
Well, Kate, I've loved having you.

(01:03:30):
Thank you so much for coming on.

(01:03:33):
Kate is doing just incredible work.

(01:03:35):
So I really urge everyone to check Kate out.

(01:03:38):
Follow her on social media.

(01:03:40):
Buy her new book, The D Word.

(01:03:42):
It might be the lifeline you've been waiting for.

(01:03:45):
Kate can really help you through these just horrible storms.

(01:03:49):
And if you like this podcast, I hope you'll share it with other people.

(01:03:53):
Subscribe, leave a review, comment, all of the above.

(01:03:56):
This really does make a difference.

(01:03:58):
You can get bonus episodes by subscribing at zon.substack.com,

(01:04:03):
and you can see a whole bunch of other stuff at liberatingmotherhood.org.

(01:04:08):
So thank you so much, and I will talk to you guys in two weeks.