(00:00:01): My husband expected me to shoulder nearly all of the responsibilities of parenthood.

(00:00:06): I had severe mental health challenges in the perinatal period that would have been

(00:00:09): treatable as support.

(00:00:11): Instead, I barely slept for over a year due to infant care combined with intrusive thoughts.

(00:00:16): Everyone I reached out to for help said it was normal.

(00:00:19): I still carry most of the load.

(00:00:21): Meanwhile, he gets compliments when he does basic parenting tasks in public.

(00:00:26): Sometimes I feel like an accessory to his lifestyle rather than a human being with

(00:00:29): my own worth,

(00:00:30): dignity,

(00:00:30): and abilities.

(00:00:33): Hi, I'm Zonva Lines.

(00:00:35): I'm a writer and activist, and this is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

(00:00:39): I'm here today with my guest, Kate Anthony.

(00:00:41): Hello.

(00:00:42): Hi, Kate.

(00:00:44): I'm so glad to have you.

(00:00:47): I'm so happy to be here with you.

(00:00:49): So Kate is the host of the New York Times recommended podcast,

(00:00:52): the Divorce Survival Guide podcast,

(00:00:55): and a divorce coach who helps women,

(00:00:57): with children especially,

(00:00:58): decide if they should stay in or leave their marriages.

(00:01:01): And then she either helps them heal their relationships or exit with grace.

(00:01:05): Kate's new book,

(00:01:06): The D Word,

(00:01:07): is an amazing and comprehensive guide to assessing when and whether it's time to go

(00:01:11): and to getting out.

(00:01:13): You can learn more about Kate at her website, kateanthony.com.

(00:01:16): And I'm also going to put all of her information in the show notes because Kate has a

(00:01:21): an abundance of resources available,

(00:01:23): and she's really just like a one-stop shop for women in troubled relationships.

(00:01:29): So that is why she's here today.

(00:01:30): Yay.

(00:01:32): Thank you.

(00:01:32): All right, Kate, so we're just going to get into it.

(00:01:36): We are seeing a huge wave of women getting divorced, and the frustrating response from men is,

(00:01:43): I have no idea why she left me.

(00:01:45): Everything was perfect.

(00:01:47): She divorced me because I left a dish in the sink.

(00:01:49): And she wouldn't fuck me.

(00:01:51): What a bitch.

(00:01:53): I see this constantly in my inbox from men who think it's just like unreasonable

(00:01:58): for women to have any standards at all.

(00:02:01): And it's clear to me that women are leaving because their partners don't listen to them.

(00:02:04): Like, imagine that.

(00:02:06): But you're the expert on this because you talk to women when they're contemplating leaving,

(00:02:11): when they do leave,

(00:02:12): and I guess in their very rare event where they decide not to leave.

(00:02:15): So why is this happening?

(00:02:20): Such a good question.

(00:02:21): Well,

(00:02:21): so first of all,

(00:02:22): yeah,

(00:02:22): they're calling it the great divorce,

(00:02:25): like on TikTok and stuff,

(00:02:27): which I think is hilarious.

(00:02:31): First of all, it is great.

(00:02:32): It is so great that women are given the,

(00:02:36): like actually have the opportunity to choose whether they want to stay in the

(00:02:44): dissatisfying or abusive marriages, right?

(00:02:48): And it is this radical concept that we actually get to choose.

(00:02:52): And men are so often blindsided.

(00:02:54): They are always blindsided.

(00:02:56): So the thing that I hear more than anything is,

(00:02:58): I've been telling him for years that I'm unhappy,

(00:03:02): but

(00:03:02): I have laid out all of the things that we,

(00:03:06): you know,

(00:03:06): that need to happen in our relationship in order for it to not feel like I'm suffocating.

(00:03:11): And he didn't listen.

(00:03:13): And I begged him to go to therapy.

(00:03:15): And he said, if I have a problem, then I should go to therapy.

(00:03:18): Right.

(00:03:18): And the list goes on and on and on and on.

(00:03:20): And then when they finally go, okay, I'm done.

(00:03:24): They're like, what?

(00:03:26): I never saw this coming.

(00:03:27): Right.

(00:03:29): It's just like, you never, actually what happened was you never thought I'd actually leave.

(00:03:37): That's actually what my ex-husband said to me when I left him,

(00:03:43): you know,

(00:03:44): 15 and a half years ago,

(00:03:46): about two weeks after I finally said,

(00:03:48): I'm actually done.

(00:03:49): He said, came to me and he said, Kate, I am, I'm so sorry.

(00:03:54): I just never thought you'd leave.

(00:03:58): And I was like, oh, so you are you're sorry.

(00:04:03): You knew all along that what the way that you were treating me,

(00:04:07): which was,

(00:04:08): you know,

(00:04:08): very emotionally abusive,

(00:04:11): that you knew that it was wrong all along and you could have stopped earlier,

(00:04:15): but you didn't think you actually had to.

(00:04:17): That's basically what that that was a confession.

(00:04:21): And whether they say it overtly or covertly,

(00:04:23): that's essentially what men are saying when they say they never saw it coming.

(00:04:28): And it's, you know, it's BS.

(00:04:31): They just never thought we'd leave.

(00:04:34): And this is part of the systemic issue that men really don't view us as full humans

(00:04:45): with choice that deserve choice.

(00:04:48): And of course,

(00:04:49): we can see that now playing out on the broader stage with taking away,

(00:04:52): as you know,

(00:04:53): all of our rights and with the growing rate of divorce,

(00:04:56): this great divorce.

(00:04:59): Actually,

(00:04:59): the divorce rate is falling,

(00:05:03): but that's because fewer people are getting married because millennials are like,

(00:05:07): this doesn't work for us.

(00:05:08): Yeah.

(00:05:10): But now we've got it on the political stage and in all of the social fabric with

(00:05:17): the elimination of Roe v.

(00:05:19): Wade.

(00:05:19): And now in Project 2025, having the no-fault divorce being on the chopping block.

(00:05:27): So the sort of covert design of a women shouldn't have choice is now actually

(00:05:33): becoming quite overt.

(00:05:36): Yeah.

(00:05:37): So I have this theory.

(00:05:38): It's like the woman as appliance theory that most heterosexual men just see women as appliances.

(00:05:44): So like, of course, your refrigerator is not supposed to tell you that you're mistreating it.

(00:05:50): Of course, your refrigerator is not going to leave.

(00:05:53): And of course,

(00:05:54): if they threaten to leave,

(00:05:55): you just should replace it with a new appliance because they're all sort of interchangeable.

(00:06:00): And one of the things that I've

(00:06:02): Talked about a lot both on the podcast and in my personal life with my own husband

(00:06:07): is how I think the thing that has made our relationship not rife with misogyny

(00:06:14): isn't actually the fact that he's a feminist or a progressive or like whatever

(00:06:18): label you want to slap on him.

(00:06:20): It's that he likes me and sees me as a person.

(00:06:24): And more and more what I'm seeing with the women I talk to is that it doesn't seem

(00:06:29): like their partners truly like them as people or ever liked them.

(00:06:34): So do heterosexual men actually like women?

(00:06:40): It's such a great question.

(00:06:41): I used to say that to my husband all the time.

(00:06:43): Like, you don't like me.

(00:06:45): You just want,

(00:06:46): what I would say was you just,

(00:06:48): it's like,

(00:06:48): you want me to be a robot that you can program and then reprogram and then

(00:06:53): reprogram when you get bored with that setting and then reprogram,

(00:06:56): you know,

(00:06:56): much like a,

(00:06:57): like a smart fridge.

(00:06:58): Right.

(00:06:58): Yeah.

(00:06:59): And I, I think it's such a great question.

(00:07:01): I think they love what we provide them.

(00:07:04): They

(00:07:06): can't live without our labor.

(00:07:10): When they say they can't live without us, they don't mean that.

(00:07:13): What they mean is, I can't live without everything you do for me.

(00:07:19): And I don't, I think you're right.

(00:07:21): I think they don't like us very much.

(00:07:22): I mean,

(00:07:23): you talk about this in your work about how,

(00:07:25): you know,

(00:07:26): heterosexual men,

(00:07:27): they don't even like vaginas very much,

(00:07:29): right?

(00:07:30): Like, it doesn't make sense.

(00:07:35): And so, you know, they don't like our bodies.

(00:07:38): What they would like is for our bodies to look more like,

(00:07:42): I don't know,

(00:07:42): adolescent boys or something.

(00:07:44): And so...

(00:07:47): As you say, like, are they actually heterosexual?

(00:07:52): But no, I don't think they do.

(00:07:54): They don't, they don't like us.

(00:07:55): They certainly don't like us.

(00:07:58): Listen, they like us when we're trad wives.

(00:08:00): They like us when we cook and clean and support them and increase their profit

(00:08:09): margins by doing all the labor at home.

(00:08:12): Like there are lots of things they like about us that are, that have nothing to do with us.

(00:08:17): humans yeah yeah it's it's really sad okay so

(00:08:23): You and I know what the typical heterosexual marriage looks like because we talk to

(00:08:26): women all the time.

(00:08:28): But women don't really talk to other women about what their marriages are really

(00:08:34): like until things are really bad.

(00:08:35): I think that there's a lot of shame.

(00:08:38): And,

(00:08:38): you know,

(00:08:39): the feedback that I get from readers and listeners all the time is I thought it was

(00:08:42): just me.

(00:08:43): You know, I thought my husband was the only person using those scripts.

(00:08:46): So I think that there's really power in women understanding that there is like a

(00:08:50): standard issue patriarchal marriage that

(00:08:52): And a standard issue set of male behavior you get with that marriage.

(00:08:57): So can you talk to me about what that marriage looks like?

(00:09:00): Like what are most of everyone's friends experiencing in their homes?

(00:09:05): Yeah.

(00:09:07): Well, I think there are varying degrees, right?

(00:09:11): So there's a spectrum, as with most things.

(00:09:14): But primarily, I think there's disparity, certainly, in household labor, child care.

(00:09:24): You know,

(00:09:24): as you said,

(00:09:25): men are praised when they,

(00:09:28): you know,

(00:09:28): take their baby to the grocery store.

(00:09:30): But when women take their baby to the grocery store, not only is it

(00:09:34): you know, normal.

(00:09:36): But also if the baby's crying,

(00:09:38): you know,

(00:09:39): there's shame or whatever,

(00:09:41): you know,

(00:09:41): this load of shame on us.

(00:09:44): So there's this disparity and there's always the disparity in domestic labor.

(00:09:52): The other thing I think that we don't talk about enough is that we,

(00:09:57): and this is something that I think women,

(00:09:59): we need to work on,

(00:10:01): is that we present our sort of caretaking and nurturing as our relationship currency.

(00:10:07): And then when we have babies,

(00:10:09): we shift our caretaking and nurturing to our babies and expect our partners to be partners.

(00:10:15): But we've been caretaking and nurturing them and somewhat treating them like our children,

(00:10:20): probably from the beginning.

(00:10:21): And maybe that's a little bit of an unfair decision.

(00:10:26): sort of shift with no conversation or no, right?

(00:10:30): Like we need to be more cognizant of what our relationship currency is in the

(00:10:34): beginnings of our relationships so that when we actually have children,

(00:10:38): we are already in partnership with these people.

(00:10:43): You know, because what ends up happening is we're exhausted.

(00:10:45): Our bodies are a mess.

(00:10:49): We are caretaking these,

(00:10:51): you know,

(00:10:52): these little tiny humans that actually will die if we don't caretake them.

(00:10:57): And then we don't have the energy to like caretake humans.

(00:11:02): the person who we want to actually be our equal partner in this.

(00:11:05): And then they get pissed off and resentful and they resent us.

(00:11:09): And then they resent the children because they took away their source of nurturing

(00:11:16): and caretaking.

(00:11:18): But if we set relationships up,

(00:11:21): And by the way, this is not our fault.

(00:11:23): This is how we have been trained.

(00:11:25): This is the patriarchal structure of it all.

(00:11:28): But we need to, I think, expose it and examine it.

(00:11:33): That if we have a different relationship currency to start off with,

(00:11:39): the shift won't be as jarring or, you know, kind of tear at the foundation of the relationship.

(00:11:48): And again, I'm not saying that's women's fault.

(00:11:50): I'm not saying necessarily that's even men's fault.

(00:11:53): That's patriarchy's fault.

(00:11:55): And as you and I both know, patriarchy does not serve men and it doesn't serve women.

(00:12:01): It doesn't serve anybody.

(00:12:02): Yeah.

(00:12:05): And it does,

(00:12:05): you know,

(00:12:05): quote,

(00:12:06): serve men in an enormous amount of ways,

(00:12:09): but ultimately it doesn't.

(00:12:11): Right.

(00:12:11): Ultimately, they're suffering.

(00:12:13): Ultimately, they're dying by suicide at more alarming rates than anyone else.

(00:12:19): Like there are so many ways in which patriarchy destroys men while purporting to support them.

(00:12:26): Yeah, I think that's right.

(00:12:28): And I,

(00:12:29): you know,

(00:12:29): I've talked a lot about how patriarchy exists to serve men,

(00:12:32): but I think what's going on a lot is that men are socialized to be ready for one

(00:12:37): type of world that doesn't really exist anymore and a type of relationship that

(00:12:43): women—

(00:12:44): don't want and never wanted and now have the ability to leave.

(00:12:48): So I think men get in these relationships and they're shocked.

(00:12:51): They're shocked that a woman would dare have any expectations at all.

(00:12:56): They're shocked that a woman would be satisfied with him like rolling on top of her,

(00:13:02): pumping and dumping for 30 seconds and then going to sleep.

(00:13:06): They just, they can't believe it that, you

(00:13:11): And so I think that there's some early socialization stuff that's going on.

(00:13:16): And then I think women are socialized also to accept it for a long time.

(00:13:20): And that's the thing that I see a lot is that…

(00:13:24): The amount of abuse that women tolerate before they really start to understand that

(00:13:29): their marriages are bad is immense.

(00:13:32): You know, men want to pretend like, oh, she left me because I wasn't perfect.

(00:13:35): And it's like,

(00:13:35): no,

(00:13:36): like,

(00:13:37): she left you because you didn't shower for two weeks and you never gave her an

(00:13:40): orgasm in 20 years and because you were a terrible parent and like a fucking

(00:13:44): worthless monster.

(00:13:46): But like, why is it that women in these just objectively terrible marriages—

(00:13:53): often need so long to see these marriages for what they are and often will even

(00:13:58): defend their husbands as,

(00:13:59): oh,

(00:13:59): he's a nice guy.

(00:14:00): Like, what's going on there?

(00:14:01): That's right.

(00:14:02): Oh, I hear that all the time.

(00:14:04): Yep.

(00:14:04): You know, he's a great guy, but he, you know, cheats on me.

(00:14:10): He's a really great guy, but he has rage and anger issues.

(00:14:14): And like, what is the bar for a great guy?

(00:14:17): Like, I don't know what this measure is.

(00:14:21): We haven't sort of landed on the measure of a great guy.

(00:14:26): You write a lot about the nice guy, right?

(00:14:28): These men are not nice at all.

(00:14:32): But even when they are, even if they are well-meaning, they're still formed by this system.

(00:14:40): They're formed by misogyny.

(00:14:43): And, you know, that's not very nice.

(00:14:46): So...

(00:14:48): I think we're in a really big shift,

(00:14:50): and I think it's part of this great divorce,

(00:14:54): is that,

(00:14:55): look,

(00:14:55): when I was going through this 15,

(00:14:57): 16 years ago,

(00:14:58): when I was starting probably 17 years ago,

(00:15:01): just asking the question over and over again,

(00:15:03): should I stay or should I go?

(00:15:04): How do I decide?

(00:15:05): How do I make this decision?

(00:15:08): Maybe there's something better out there.

(00:15:11): Maybe this isn't right.

(00:15:13): There was no...

(00:15:15): There were no podcasts.

(00:15:17): There was no Instagram.

(00:15:20): Facebook was in its nascency, right?

(00:15:22): We were just like, no, but there was no public discourse about this stuff.

(00:15:28): And so as we have been exposing it for what it is,

(00:15:35): there's just so much more information,

(00:15:39): but the information is coming like too late,

(00:15:43): right?

(00:15:44): So I think that what we're seeing now is that women have access to information,

(00:15:49): but the information is sort of coming on the heels of their experience,

(00:15:54): right?

(00:15:54): So we have,

(00:15:56): I think that there is going to be a tipping point where like,

(00:16:00): I see this with my son,

(00:16:02): who's Gen Z,

(00:16:03): he's 19,

(00:16:04): that they have the information ahead of time and they're doing relationships differently,

(00:16:09): right?

(00:16:10): than we did when we started out, right?

(00:16:14): And so I think that people are overwhelmingly opting out of these relationships

(00:16:19): right now because they have so much information now.

(00:16:23): The next phase of this is for them to not opt into them.

(00:16:31): But of course,

(00:16:32): as with any systemic change,

(00:16:36): what's happening is that the,

(00:16:39): you know,

(00:16:39): the resistance gets stronger first.

(00:16:43): Yes.

(00:16:44): Right.

(00:16:44): The backlash.

(00:16:45): Right.

(00:16:46): The backlash right now is so intense.

(00:16:50): There is,

(00:16:50): you know,

(00:16:51): look,

(00:16:51): we had like,

(00:16:52): as I always call,

(00:16:53): I call him,

(00:16:54): you know,

(00:16:54): toxic abuser in chief,

(00:16:56): um,

(00:16:56): who is like,

(00:16:58): you know,

(00:16:58): I don't know if you want to talk about this on,

(00:17:00): but,

(00:17:01): um,

(00:17:02): This is on a national level.

(00:17:04): This is on a political level.

(00:17:06): This is on a very enormous stage that this kind of behavior is tolerated and not

(00:17:14): just tolerated,

(00:17:14): but lauded and elected.

(00:17:17): And so it just gets louder and louder and bigger and bigger.

(00:17:22): But it's going to have to die out because people are seeing it for what it is,

(00:17:29): finally,

(00:17:30): because we're talking about it,

(00:17:31): because you have a podcast,

(00:17:32): because I have a podcast,

(00:17:34): because we're on Instagram and social media,

(00:17:36): and we have this broader reach rather than just like some random book in a library

(00:17:40): that somebody might happen upon.

(00:17:43): You know,

(00:17:43): I think that one thing that women are stumbling upon is sort of the power of being

(00:17:49): willing to be disliked.

(00:17:51): Now, in a patriarchy, being disliked is dangerous because men are violent.

(00:17:56): But,

(00:17:56): you know,

(00:17:56): being willing to,

(00:17:57): like,

(00:17:57): have men not really like you have other women think you're nuts,

(00:18:01): I think there's a lot of power in that.

(00:18:03): You were getting divorced around the time that I was getting married.

(00:18:07): And when my husband and I got together about 15 years ago,

(00:18:13): People thought I was nuts that I had a list of criteria that he had to meet.

(00:18:18): That's right.

(00:18:19): They thought it was absolutely insane that he and I were sitting down and

(00:18:24): memorializing our commitments and our relationship standards and our expectations

(00:18:28): of each other,

(00:18:29): you know—

(00:18:32): just why would you be, you're just crazy and your expectations are unreasonable.

(00:18:36): And, you know, 15 years later, like I'm fucking obsessed on them.

(00:18:41): Yeah.

(00:18:41): I'm, I am fucking obsessed with my husband and insanely in love.

(00:18:45): And everybody I know is either trapped in a miserable relationship or has left one.

(00:18:51): And so I often think about that and tell women about that, that like,

(00:18:56): you know, it's okay to have people think you're being unreasonable.

(00:18:58): And a person who you're supposed to be with will not see you having basic standards

(00:19:04): and needs as unreasonable.

(00:19:05): And that in itself can be its own like kind of litmus test.

(00:19:10): So I hope more people will move towards just having standards at the beginning of

(00:19:15): their relationship and really like holding men to some sort of reasonable standard.

(00:19:20): So I want to talk kind of about

(00:19:23): your bread and butter because you're a divorce coach,

(00:19:26): which means you kind of fill in the gaps that like the lawyer,

(00:19:30): the therapist,

(00:19:31): the guardian ad litem,

(00:19:32): all of that don't do.

(00:19:33): You're really like, you're like the divorce shepherd.

(00:19:36): You just see women through.

(00:19:37): Yeah.

(00:19:38): I, yeah, someone called me a midwife.

(00:19:41): Yes.

(00:19:42): Actually,

(00:19:42): it was a,

(00:19:42): it was a guy I was dating,

(00:19:43): which was,

(00:19:44): he was like,

(00:19:44): you were like my midwife for my divorce.

(00:19:46): And I was like, that's not really what I was being in.

(00:19:51): You know, that's not exactly why I was in the relationship, but thanks.

(00:19:54): I should have invoiced him, but, but yes.

(00:19:57): And because there is a gap, right?

(00:19:59): There's a huge gap between attorneys, first of all,

(00:20:04): God love them.

(00:20:05): They're trained in the law.

(00:20:07): They're not trained in, you know, human emotion and, um, psychology.

(00:20:14): They're not trained in, um, you know, they're not as attorneys I've seen.

(00:20:19): I know that'll say,

(00:20:21): you know,

(00:20:21): I'm literally the most expensive,

(00:20:23): uh,

(00:20:24): untrained therapist you can ever hire.

(00:20:26): So please don't come in here with your oceans because it's, you know, it's going to cost you.

(00:20:30): Um,

(00:20:33): But,

(00:20:34): you know,

(00:20:34): the other thing is that attorneys tend not to be in this,

(00:20:39): generally speaking,

(00:20:40): tend not to be that great at explaining the process to their clients.

(00:20:45): And they're not that great at assessing strategy.

(00:20:49): Right.

(00:20:50): Um,

(00:20:50): they're great at,

(00:20:51): you know,

(00:20:51): filing motions or,

(00:20:53): or addressing this or addressing that,

(00:20:54): but like as a whole and a strategy,

(00:20:56): um,

(00:20:58): that is what I do.

(00:20:59): I help women get into the proper mindset for divorce nine times out of 10,

(00:21:05): especially when someone's been abused.

(00:21:08): They're like, it is not fair.

(00:21:09): He cheated on me.

(00:21:11): And I'm not sharing.

(00:21:12): I'm not splitting, you know, custody with him or he's been like this.

(00:21:16): And, you know, I and like they just want someone to finally hear them.

(00:21:24): And they get to court and they explode all of this stuff that someone's finally

(00:21:29): listening and then they look unhinged.

(00:21:32): Right.

(00:21:32): Yeah.

(00:21:33): And then it backfires on them.

(00:21:35): And so what I do is I work with my clients, especially on mindset.

(00:21:41): It's a really important thing to understand that,

(00:21:45): you know,

(00:21:45): there's a difference between what's legal and what's fair.

(00:21:47): Right.

(00:21:48): And most people don't think about it that way.

(00:21:51): They actually don't know the difference between what's legal and what's fair.

(00:21:54): They don't know how to have a strategy mindset when going into any form of

(00:22:00): negotiation for divorce,

(00:22:04): right?

(00:22:04): Like we have to leave our emotions at the door, but we also need a place to put them, right?

(00:22:08): So a coach is a really great place to go vomit all of your

(00:22:13): Look,

(00:22:13): your therapist,

(00:22:14): you could go in and vomit all your stuff and they'll say,

(00:22:16): thank you very much.

(00:22:17): It's,

(00:22:17): you know,

(00:22:18): it's been 50 minutes and,

(00:22:19): you know,

(00:22:19): see you next week for,

(00:22:21): you know,

(00:22:22): and an attorney,

(00:22:24): you're going to go in and vomit all your stuff and they're going to be like,

(00:22:27): okay,

(00:22:27): none of that matters.

(00:22:28): And that'll be $750.

(00:22:29): And then, you know, a coach can go, okay, let me hold it all.

(00:22:35): you know, let's vomit it all out.

(00:22:37): And then I go, okay, this actually matters.

(00:22:40): This matters.

(00:22:41): Okay, that doesn't matter.

(00:22:42): That doesn't matter.

(00:22:43): That doesn't matter.

(00:22:43): In the eyes of the law, I get you are valid.

(00:22:46): Your feelings are valid.

(00:22:47): But in the eyes of the law, these things do not matter.

(00:22:50): Here's what does matter.

(00:22:51): And here is how we're going to strategically organize this

(00:22:55): to present in court in a way that will actually matter to a judge,

(00:23:00): possibly,

(00:23:01): depending on the judge,

(00:23:02): because the family law system is just not that just,

(00:23:06): especially when it comes to women.

(00:23:07): So that is what I do.

(00:23:10): I will hold all of your anger and your rage and your fear and your terror of

(00:23:16): hurting your children,

(00:23:17): and we will strategize how to bring that to your attorney and

(00:23:22): in a way that's going to save you a fuck ton of money because your attorney doesn't

(00:23:25): have to sort of parse through all of your emotional baggage that they don't understand.

(00:23:31): And then we're going to present it to your attorney in a way that they can use,

(00:23:36): in a way that makes sense to them.

(00:23:39): I love that because I think the thing that women really need to understand is that

(00:23:42): the bar for seeing women as crazy is so low that any expression of emotion means

(00:23:49): you're just a complete nutcase.

(00:23:51): That's right.

(00:23:52): And the bar for seeing men as abusive is impossibly high such that he could beat

(00:23:57): you in front of the judge and the judge might wonder what you did to deserve it.

(00:24:01): And so we have to be really strategic.

(00:24:04): That's right.

(00:24:05): Or he could beat you in front of the judge,

(00:24:07): and the judge would say,

(00:24:08): well,

(00:24:09): he didn't beat the kids,

(00:24:10): though.

(00:24:10): Right.

(00:24:10): So he still gets 50-50 custody.

(00:24:12): Or why didn't you protect the kids from this beating?

(00:24:15): Why didn't you leave earlier?

(00:24:16): That's right.

(00:24:18): And there are women in jail for more time than their abusers for failure to protect

(00:24:23): their children.

(00:24:24): It's outrageous.

(00:24:25): So I was actually thinking about you last night because—

(00:24:29): I was working with a reader on her affidavit for her custody and restraining order

(00:24:35): and all of that.

(00:24:36): And she's had a really profoundly abusive marriage in every way that a marriage can be abusive.

(00:24:41): Her husband is just a complete monster.

(00:24:45): And she sent me like 30,000 words.

(00:24:47): And buried in those 30,000 words is like one sentence about the abuse.

(00:24:51): Yeah.

(00:24:55): And I was like,

(00:24:55): you know,

(00:24:56): this is what coaching is really for,

(00:24:58): is to get to that one sentence,

(00:25:01): to help you sharpen that sentence so that you can use it to just stab your abusive ex.

(00:25:06): Mm-hmm.

(00:25:08): So I think that...

(00:25:10): We know that the system is biased,

(00:25:12): and I think that that is starting to make its way into the public consciousness,

(00:25:18): which is a good thing because now there's a movement to improve it.

(00:25:22): But one of the things I worry about is I see women saying,

(00:25:26): well,

(00:25:26): the system is biased,

(00:25:27): and so there's no hope.

(00:25:29): I can't leave.

(00:25:30): My husband is going to get 50-50 custody, and I'm going to get nothing.

(00:25:34): They really believe this.

(00:25:35): They believe they have no right to family property.

(00:25:38): They believe that there's nothing they can do.

(00:25:41): Can you speak to that?

(00:25:43): Because what I see when I interview married women is they're terrified to leave and

(00:25:47): they think it's all going to be awful.

(00:25:49): And when I interview divorced women,

(00:25:51): they are universally thrilled and they wish they had left earlier.

(00:25:55): So, you know, again, there's bias.

(00:25:58): But can we give the women who are thinking about leaving some hope?

(00:26:03): Absolutely.

(00:26:04): I mean, yes.

(00:26:06): I do not know anybody who regrets their divorce.

(00:26:11): Like, I don't think I've ever met anyone who regrets it.

(00:26:15): If you get to the point where you're so miserable that this is on the table and

(00:26:19): this is what you're choosing to do and all the hoops that you have to jump through

(00:26:22): in order to do it,

(00:26:24): like you're on the other side and you are relieved.

(00:26:27): I run a group program that's got,

(00:26:29): you know,

(00:26:29): I don't know,

(00:26:31): upwards of 50,

(00:26:33): 60 women in it right now.

(00:26:35): you know, 50, 60 women at a time in it.

(00:26:37): And every one of them is going through the process.

(00:26:40): And every one of them, some of them are on the other side.

(00:26:44): Not a single one of them regrets it.

(00:26:46): And they're still in it.

(00:26:47): Like they're still in the process.

(00:26:49): But once they get into a separate living space, it's like all of the clouds clear, right?

(00:26:57): The, you know, they're not being triggered 24 seven and they can actually start to think and,

(00:27:04): And they can actually start to use their executive function and their, you know, reasoning.

(00:27:09): And they're like, holy shit, I can't believe I waited so long.

(00:27:14): This is insanity.

(00:27:14): I can breathe for the first time.

(00:27:16): So...

(00:27:20): If you're in a place where you're really contemplating this and feeling the weight of,

(00:27:26): but what about my kids?

(00:27:28): And, you know, am I going to, first of all, am I going to screw up my kids?

(00:27:30): First of all, it is the only thing that messes up children is toxicity.

(00:27:36): And that is in-

(00:27:39): a home or an intact marriage or outside of it.

(00:27:44): So if by,

(00:27:45): you know,

(00:27:46): God's grace,

(00:27:47): you can have an amicable divorce,

(00:27:50): it's going to be a lot better than keeping them in a toxic environment.

(00:27:54): That being said,

(00:27:55): you don't have control over how your spouse is going to respond and react to this.

(00:28:00): And there could be a lot of toxicity,

(00:28:02): but two separate homes gives your children at least one place.

(00:28:09): And the research backs up that as long as they have one home in which they feel comfortable and

(00:28:18): confident, loved, nurtured, cared for, they will be okay.

(00:28:23): They're going to need therapy, all of the things, but who doesn't?

(00:28:27): But if you provide them this one safe place to land,

(00:28:33): even if it's only 50% of the time,

(00:28:36): you give them the gift of perspective and

(00:28:39): You allow your children to understand the difference between toxicity and calm,

(00:28:48): between,

(00:28:49): you know,

(00:28:50): blame and shame and all of the things,

(00:28:52): whatever it is that they feel at the other parent's house.

(00:28:55): When they come to your house, they get the difference, right?

(00:28:59): As opposed to being mired in it all the time and just sort of feeling like

(00:29:03): something's wrong,

(00:29:04): but they don't know what it is.

(00:29:07): You give them a place for their nervous systems to settle.

(00:29:14): They have an opportunity to like calm down and be at peace for a period of time.

(00:29:24): And as things go along,

(00:29:26): if you can document any of the issues that are happening at the other house and

(00:29:31): they rise to a level that a judge might make a decision,

(00:29:35): you know,

(00:29:35): this is why I also recommend not rushing the divorce,

(00:29:39): right?

(00:29:39): Separate for a time because then you give someone either the rope to hang

(00:29:44): themselves or you give them the opportunity to step up and become a really great parent,

(00:29:49): even if they haven't been historically.

(00:29:51): Um,

(00:29:52): but if you,

(00:29:52): if you rush through the divorce and you get divorced and you've got a decree,

(00:29:55): you're going to have to go back to court.

(00:29:56): You're going to have to file more motions and it's going to be really more

(00:29:59): difficult to change,

(00:30:00): um,

(00:30:01): something that's already legally in place.

(00:30:04): So give it some time,

(00:30:06): allow the other parent the opportunity to either figure it out and step up or

(00:30:13): You get enough rope to hang themselves so that you can get enough evidence and

(00:30:18): documentation so that when you do go to court,

(00:30:21): you're actually prepared.

(00:30:23): I think that's great advice.

(00:30:24): And I like what you said about giving children a place to regulate their nervous systems.

(00:30:29): Because what I hear constantly from women is, well, I can't protect her at her dad's house.

(00:30:35): And we feel such pressure as mothers to make our children's childhoods perfect.

(00:30:40): And we often fear the unknown more than we fear the familiar awful.

(00:30:46): And I think that women really need to consider that 50% safety,

(00:30:51): which is what you get if you get 50-50 custody,

(00:30:54): is better than no safety at all,

(00:30:57): which is what you get if your child is living constantly with an abuser.

(00:31:00): Right.

(00:31:01): So sometimes, yeah.

(00:31:02): Yes.

(00:31:03): The thing that I hear,

(00:31:04): right,

(00:31:04): that everyone says is at least I can protect them when I'm,

(00:31:07): you know,

(00:31:08): if I'm there all the time.

(00:31:10): But that's a fallacy.

(00:31:13): What you're doing is co-signing the behavior.

(00:31:16): Yeah.

(00:31:16): You look like you're protecting.

(00:31:17): You feel like you're protecting, but you're not.

(00:31:20): Protecting them would be getting them the fuck out, even if it's only half the time.

(00:31:24): Yeah.

(00:31:25): Okay.

(00:31:26): So to that point, you know, I...

(00:31:28): There are some situations where I think women can protect.

(00:31:32): Like if a man is just unsafe completely with a child and will leave,

(00:31:35): you know,

(00:31:35): a two-year-old unattended in the bathtub,

(00:31:37): that sort of thing.

(00:31:38): Yes.

(00:31:38): Like maybe you're stuck.

(00:31:40): But when you are working with women and coaching them on should I stay or should I go,

(00:31:46): what sorts of things should people consider?

(00:31:48): What are the most important things to think about?

(00:31:50): Mm-hmm.

(00:31:53): Well,

(00:31:53): the very first thing that I have women really look at is getting in touch with

(00:31:58): their authentic self,

(00:32:01): capital S self,

(00:32:02): right?

(00:32:03): Because so often we've got the magnifying glass on their behavior.

(00:32:08): Does their behavior rise to the level of like, is it bad enough for me to leave?

(00:32:12): Like,

(00:32:12): I don't know,

(00:32:13): like other men are better,

(00:32:14): like,

(00:32:15): you know,

(00:32:15): other men are worse or,

(00:32:16): you know,

(00:32:18): but it's always about them.

(00:32:19): And so if we just shift it, like, how do I feel?

(00:32:23): feel in this relationship?

(00:32:26): How does this relationship actually make me feel?

(00:32:30): Do I feel my best self or do I feel like the absolute worst version of myself?

(00:32:36): What does my inner sense of knowing, my intuition, really, really, really know?

(00:32:42): And it's really hard for us to connect with our intuition when we are being abused,

(00:32:49): when we have our defenses up all the time,

(00:32:53): when we're being criticized or anything like that.

(00:32:56): It's really hard to connect with your sense of self when basically your whole life

(00:33:00): feels like it's out of alignment with that self.

(00:33:04): And when you have set up your whole life as a sort of protection mechanism to deny

(00:33:11): what you kind of know intuitively.

(00:33:16): But it is the most important thing to do, right?

(00:33:19): So the first thing I do with my clients is really connect them with like, what do you know?

(00:33:23): right?

(00:33:23): No judgment, no criticism.

(00:33:25): You don't have to do anything about it, but what do you know?

(00:33:29): And it can be very, very quick, right?

(00:33:31): It's usually a very fast answer, right?

(00:33:34): Like, I know this is wrong.

(00:33:36): Okay, great.

(00:33:38): What are we going to do about that, right?

(00:33:40): Then we're going to do some education about

(00:33:43): you know, I will send them your articles.

(00:33:46): I will send them, you know, certainly my book, right?

(00:33:49): Information to be like,

(00:33:50): actually,

(00:33:50): there's a name for what you're experiencing and it is actually not okay.

(00:33:56): So we'll do the internal work and then we'll start looking at the relationship.

(00:34:00): I have a great healthy relationship checklist.

(00:34:03): I'll give it to you if you want.

(00:34:04): We can put it in the show notes.

(00:34:06): It's a healthy relationship checklist.

(00:34:08): And it's all about like, how do I feel in this relationship?

(00:34:10): Do I feel emotionally safe?

(00:34:12): Do I feel physically safe?

(00:34:13): Right.

(00:34:14): Things like that, that are pretty objectively clear.

(00:34:18): And then you can score it.

(00:34:22): Right.

(00:34:22): Like I actually, it's like, it's a quiz that you can just score yourself.

(00:34:25): Oh my God.

(00:34:26): I love to be able to score other people.

(00:34:28): That's just my favorite thing.

(00:34:29): Yes.

(00:34:32): Um,

(00:34:33): you know,

(00:34:33): and so,

(00:34:34): you know,

(00:34:35): and then we'll,

(00:34:35): and then obviously as we move down the line,

(00:34:38): we get deeper and more in,

(00:34:39): you know,

(00:34:39): intense,

(00:34:40): um,

(00:34:41): to the work because then it's like you start to pull back the layers and you start

(00:34:44): to uncover things.

(00:34:46): And when you uncover them, then you have to do the hard work of really actually examining it.

(00:34:51): And that's the hard work,

(00:34:52): but that's also the work that a good therapist or coach who specializes in this area,

(00:35:00): and I really actually want to highlight that because it's really important to work

(00:35:05): with someone who has a specialty in what it is that you are dealing with.

(00:35:10): Not all therapists are created equally.

(00:35:13): There is zero training on recognizing the signs of domestic violence in basic therapy training.

(00:35:19): So,

(00:35:21): you know,

(00:35:21): so many people go to couples therapy thinking a therapist is going to like get,

(00:35:25): understand what's going on and,

(00:35:27): you know,

(00:35:28): and they're not trained to,

(00:35:29): and they're not going to,

(00:35:31): unless they actually have training in this.

(00:35:33): And in which case they won't see you as a couple,

(00:35:36): if they recognize abuse,

(00:35:37): they will tell you that that is,

(00:35:39): you know,

(00:35:39): contraindicated and,

(00:35:41): and send you resources.

(00:35:43): So you need to be working with someone who has a specialty in this area to,

(00:35:48): Otherwise, they can do a lot more damage.

(00:35:51): I love how you focus on the woman because I think that we have this idea that women

(00:35:57): have to earn the right to leave.

(00:35:58): And they have to earn the right to leave by proving that he is bad enough.

(00:36:02): But women are actually whole people on their own.

(00:36:05): And you can just leave if you're unhappy.

(00:36:07): You don't have to prove to someone else that you're allowed to do it because you're

(00:36:11): allowed to have your own life.

(00:36:13): Yes.

(00:36:14): And by the way, even if there's no abuse, there's nothing wrong.

(00:36:21): If you don't want to be married anymore, you get to say, it's okay.

(00:36:25): That's it.

(00:36:27): Okay.

(00:36:27): So a reality check about marriage.

(00:36:29): Because I know that one of the things you do is you coach women through whether

(00:36:32): they can stay and fix their marriage or leave and go build a new life.

(00:36:39): how many actually stay and successfully fix their marriage, Kate?

(00:36:42): Like how many broken marriages can really be fixed?

(00:36:46): Yeah.

(00:36:47): Look,

(00:36:47): at the end of the day,

(00:36:48): people in really healthy marriages,

(00:36:51): in really healthy and happy marriages,

(00:36:53): you can attest to this,

(00:36:54): Zahn,

(00:36:54): how many times have you woken up in the middle of the night and thought,

(00:36:57): should I stay or should I go?

(00:36:59): Right.

(00:36:59): Yeah.

(00:37:00): Is it right?

(00:37:01): Like never, right?

(00:37:02): You're like,

(00:37:03): I mean,

(00:37:03): even if Jeff pisses you off,

(00:37:05): you pretty much wake up every morning and go,

(00:37:07): thank God I got this guy,

(00:37:09): right?

(00:37:10): You're obsessed with him.

(00:37:12): So if you're waking up in the middle of the night and you're like, God, I don't know.

(00:37:17): I'm agonizing over this.

(00:37:19): And you're coming to my website or you're searching for podcasts and you're

(00:37:22): listening to this podcast or readings on,

(00:37:25): probably there's something pretty wrong.

(00:37:29): right?

(00:37:30): That's already the bar.

(00:37:31): So most of the women I work with end up leaving,

(00:37:33): not because I forced them to,

(00:37:36): but because they're already coming.

(00:37:38): They're looking for permission.

(00:37:39): They're looking for, is this bad enough?

(00:37:41): They're looking for, do I get to say?

(00:37:44): And so most of my clients do end up leaving.

(00:37:48): I have had a few that have stayed.

(00:37:49): The ones that have stayed have been because their husbands have done a complete 180.

(00:37:59): Now, you and I both know that as soon as we say we're done, they immediately see the light.

(00:38:05): They, you know, read all the books.

(00:38:09): They, you know, get into therapy, whatever it takes.

(00:38:12): And that usually that lasts maybe two to three months if we're lucky.

(00:38:18): Because they're usually doing all those things as a tactic, right?

(00:38:22): Not because they've actually changed.

(00:38:24): So I've had a few clients who have really felt confident that their husbands really

(00:38:30): did change and that it was real and that they were going to give it another chance.

(00:38:35): I actually...

(00:38:37): I mean, and I say like maybe two to three in the last 12 years.

(00:38:42): I haven't heard back from them.

(00:38:44): So I can't tell you whether this is, you know, the turnaround was real or not.

(00:38:52): So, I mean, I really don't know.

(00:38:54): I really don't know.

(00:38:55): But generally speaking, it's the odds are not good.

(00:39:01): I mean,

(00:39:03): Yeah.

(00:39:05): You know,

(00:39:05): three in 12 years,

(00:39:07): but you haven't heard back from any of them,

(00:39:09): is a very ringing endorsement for the fixability of broken marriages.

(00:39:13): Yeah, that's right.

(00:39:14): That's right.

(00:39:15): Yeah.

(00:39:17): That's really, really alarmingly bad.

(00:39:20): Okay.

(00:39:20): So, Kate, you mentioned dating someone.

(00:39:24): So, after all you've seen, you date.

(00:39:26): Yeah.

(00:39:28): So no, no, no, you don't.

(00:39:31): You're done with that.

(00:39:33): When did I say that?

(00:39:34): No, I don't.

(00:39:36): I may have hallucinated it.

(00:39:39): Oh, I, you know, I, I, I don't, I, here's the thing.

(00:39:43): I will,

(00:39:43): I will say like,

(00:39:44): maybe,

(00:39:44): maybe I told you this,

(00:39:45): I don't know,

(00:39:45): like a month or so ago,

(00:39:46): um,

(00:39:48): my next door neighbor,

(00:39:49): my dear,

(00:39:50): dear friend,

(00:39:50): uh,

(00:39:51): did set me up with someone and it was a good two weeks of,

(00:39:57): you know,

(00:39:57): conversations.

(00:39:58): I, we never met in person.

(00:40:00): We zoomed.

(00:40:00): He was in another city, another state, um,

(00:40:04): Uh,

(00:40:05): but after,

(00:40:06): you know,

(00:40:06): two weeks of phone calls in which I just was like listening and nodding and okay.

(00:40:12): And not being asked a lot.

(00:40:13): I was like, I, I got, nope.

(00:40:14): Yeah.

(00:40:15): Yeah.

(00:40:17): Nope.

(00:40:18): Uh,

(00:40:18): and I also live in Los Angeles and I am 53 and this is,

(00:40:23): you know,

(00:40:24): men my age like to date women who are in their thirties.

(00:40:28): Um, if that, but I think they prefer to date women in their twenties.

(00:40:30): But,

(00:40:31): um,

(00:40:32): so,

(00:40:32): you know,

(00:40:33): there aren't a lot of men out there that I have met certainly who are interested in

(00:40:38): dating somebody,

(00:40:40): um,

(00:40:41): my age.

(00:40:43): Um, but also who, I mean, given what I do as well, it's a bit of a, um, it's really hard.

(00:40:52): They don't like what I do.

(00:40:53): Yeah.

(00:40:54): But I think that's, I mean, that's a flag because.

(00:40:57): Oh, a hundred percent.

(00:40:58): Cause like,

(00:41:00): cause good men hear,

(00:41:02): well,

(00:41:02): I help women get out of bad marriages and they think,

(00:41:05): well,

(00:41:06): I want a good marriage.

(00:41:07): And

(00:41:07): And so they don't feel defensive.

(00:41:08): It's like the men who get really mad when I talk about how most men are bad in bed.

(00:41:13): And they're like, well, most women don't have sex with their husbands enough.

(00:41:17): It's like,

(00:41:17): bro,

(00:41:18): why are you bragging about not being able to make a woman want to have sex with you?

(00:41:23): You should be on my side.

(00:41:25): You should be on the side of, oh, well, I'm not like them.

(00:41:27): I can make a woman scream.

(00:41:29): It's kind of the same thing.

(00:41:30): Right.

(00:41:32): That's right.

(00:41:32): Exactly.

(00:41:33): So,

(00:41:33): you know,

(00:41:34): if a man is intimidated or,

(00:41:35): you know,

(00:41:38): yeah,

(00:41:39): gets defensive about what I do,

(00:41:41): then like,

(00:41:41): OK,

(00:41:41): bye.

(00:41:42): Like, I'm sorry.

(00:41:43): I'm also, you know, I'm successful in my career.

(00:41:46): I run my own business.

(00:41:48): If you're not adding to my life, like my life is great.

(00:41:51): I've got, you know, a great kid.

(00:41:53): I've got a lot of animals.

(00:41:55): Yeah.

(00:41:55): Um, I've got some plants, not as many as you, but I've, you know, I've got some plants.

(00:41:59): You're my, you're my guru.

(00:42:01): Um, that, uh, um, uh, what's it called?

(00:42:05): The, um, anyway, it's growing back.

(00:42:08): Um, I don't know.

(00:42:09): I don't know what it is.

(00:42:10): That's growing back in your house, Kate.

(00:42:13): I, I sends on pictures of my plants and tell her whether it's too late or not.

(00:42:16): And she tells me no.

(00:42:17): And she tells me how to fix them and, and it's working.

(00:42:20): Um, so listen, you know, I,

(00:42:24): My life is really good.

(00:42:25): And if someone is going to come into it, there better be an enhancement to it.

(00:42:31): Yeah.

(00:42:31): And I've yet to find that.

(00:42:33): Well,

(00:42:33): I think it's interesting because you're attributing a lot of this to like personal

(00:42:38): characteristics of like you're in your 50s and you're successful and you're making

(00:42:41): money and you're counseling women.

(00:42:42): But I actually don't think it's because of your

(00:42:45): personal characteristics that it's hard to find someone decent to date.

(00:42:48): It's that most men have never learned to be likable,

(00:42:51): to be competent in bed,

(00:42:54): to be emotionally intelligent,

(00:42:56): to be any of the things that might make a woman want to voluntarily spend time with them.

(00:43:01): And so the dating pool of quality men is really narrow.

(00:43:05): And if women are really going to get out of these bad relationships,

(00:43:09): then we have to accept that like most women are going to be single because most men

(00:43:14): suck ass.

(00:43:16): And,

(00:43:16): you know,

(00:43:17): and there are some,

(00:43:18): like,

(00:43:18): really spectacular men who are never offended when I say most men suck ass because,

(00:43:25): like,

(00:43:25): they know.

(00:43:25): That's right.

(00:43:27): That's right.

(00:43:28): And you can introduce me to them.

(00:43:29): You can introduce me to those men.

(00:43:32): You know, and I appreciate you saying that.

(00:43:34): And I think that,

(00:43:34): you know,

(00:43:35): when I say like I'm 53 and all of my personal attributes,

(00:43:39): what I mean is like most men don't aren't looking for that in their partner,

(00:43:43): which means that they actually suck.

(00:43:45): Yeah, exactly.

(00:43:46): Exactly.

(00:43:47): And like,

(00:43:47): I just want to like,

(00:43:49): I want to add again to that because,

(00:43:52): you know,

(00:43:52): I have like male listeners and I have a lot of women who like make their partners

(00:43:56): listen to me at gunpoint.

(00:43:58): If you are feeling defensive in response to this,

(00:44:03): it's because you are identifying with the low-value men.

(00:44:07): And, like, why would you want to do that?

(00:44:09): Why would you not want to identify with the kind of men that women actually want to

(00:44:13): be with who are,

(00:44:14): you know,

(00:44:15): emotionally intelligent,

(00:44:17): good at sex,

(00:44:18): good at parenting if they have kids?

(00:44:20): Yeah.

(00:44:20): you know, good at having a meaningful relationship.

(00:44:23): Like, this is what men should want to identify with.

(00:44:25): So it's so weird to me how many men just immediately out themselves with,

(00:44:30): well,

(00:44:30): you hate men because you're speaking badly about the men who,

(00:44:33): like,

(00:44:33): stink and suck.

(00:44:36): Like, why do you want to be that?

(00:44:38): Well, here's the thing is that real change is going to take men holding each other to account.

(00:44:44): Yeah.

(00:44:46): Because until—

(00:44:48): the,

(00:44:49): until the quote,

(00:44:50): really good men,

(00:44:50): um,

(00:44:52): stand up and say to their,

(00:44:53): to their brethren,

(00:44:55): dude,

(00:44:56): like you like learn how to have sex.

(00:44:59): You're, you're, you're bad at it.

(00:45:01): Um,

(00:45:01): or,

(00:45:02): you know,

(00:45:02): that's not how you treat women or,

(00:45:05): you know,

(00:45:05): whatever else it is like they,

(00:45:08): until men are willing to hold other men to account,

(00:45:11): we're not really going to get as far as we need to get.

(00:45:15): Yeah.

(00:45:16): Yeah.

(00:45:16): I mean, I think that's the core.

(00:45:18): And,

(00:45:18): you know,

(00:45:20): I believe that social change has historically only happened when oppressive

(00:45:24): behavior becomes socially unacceptable.

(00:45:27): Like racism in schools did not end when schools were integrated.

(00:45:32): Right.

(00:45:33): It just became less socially acceptable.

(00:45:35): So racists had to find other forms of racism.

(00:45:38): And I think that it is very similar with heterosexual marriage,

(00:45:42): that there is a large swath of men who don't really like women,

(00:45:46): who just see them as fuck dolls,

(00:45:48): and they are only going to begin changing their behavior when that behavior renders

(00:45:53): a man unfuckable,

(00:45:54): when like the only way to get a relationship with a woman is to not be a piece of shit.

(00:46:01): That's right.

(00:46:02): And so we have to,

(00:46:03): you know,

(00:46:04): men aren't changing,

(00:46:05): but women can control who they have relationships with.

(00:46:08): And so we really have to like set the bar high.

(00:46:12): All right.

(00:46:13): So if you could give women who are planning to leave their marriage just one piece

(00:46:19): of information that you think they need to have or a myth that you need to dispel,

(00:46:25): what would it be?

(00:46:28): I think the myth that, well, what I want women to know is that they deserve to be happy.

(00:46:37): And if there are things in their marriage that are really causing them distress,

(00:46:43): they don't have to suffer anymore.

(00:46:46): And that happiness is possible outside.

(00:46:49): This is radical, right?

(00:46:51): Radical.

(00:46:52): Happiness is absolutely possible for women outside of relationships with men.

(00:46:59): And it goes against everything we've been taught since very, very, very, very, very young.

(00:47:04): It's not only possible, it's actually, you know, sometimes preferable.

(00:47:10): Sometimes.

(00:47:11): Sometimes.

(00:47:13): Yeah, right.

(00:47:16): So we, you know, we deserve to be happy.

(00:47:20): You,

(00:47:20): if you're listening and you're questioning this,

(00:47:23): you deserve to be happy and your children deserve a happy mother.

(00:47:28): A mother who is not stressed and,

(00:47:31): you know,

(00:47:31): beaten down and has no self-esteem anymore and can't figure out what the fuck

(00:47:37): happened to her.

(00:47:39): Right?

(00:47:39): That's not, that is not, you know, that is not liberated motherhood in any sense.

(00:47:48): And your children deserve a mother who is liberated and you deserve to be happy.

(00:47:55): I think that's great.

(00:47:56): And so on the other end of this,

(00:47:59): you have seen how the myriad of red flags that men wave manifest over the course of

(00:48:05): a relationship.

(00:48:07): What is your advice at the beginning of a relationship?

(00:48:09): What do you wish women knew or could internalize?

(00:48:14): I wish women would go very, very slowly into new relationships.

(00:48:18): First of all,

(00:48:19): I wish everyone would take,

(00:48:21): after getting out of a bad relationship,

(00:48:22): take a year to heal.

(00:48:25): Dr.

(00:48:25): Romani talks about this,

(00:48:26): and she has such great information and advice on this,

(00:48:30): especially in her newest book,

(00:48:33): because we need a year.

(00:48:35): You need a year to go through all the seasons to really heal yourself.

(00:48:39): And then anyone who you start to date after that period of healing,

(00:48:46): will have to get through kind of layers of healed membrane.

(00:48:51): And you will become very protective of your healed self,

(00:48:56): such that you will notice things in ways that you have not before.

(00:49:00): If you dive right into the dating pool,

(00:49:02): you dive right into relationships,

(00:49:04): you get sucked back into that vortex.

(00:49:08): This is why...

(00:49:11): Second, so the divorce rate for first marriages hovers around 50%.

(00:49:16): For second marriages, it's about 68%.

(00:49:20): For third marriages, it's 74%.

(00:49:22): We're getting worse at it because we jump right in.

(00:49:26): We don't do the healing work.

(00:49:28): We are using the same picker.

(00:49:31): We've got to heal the picker before we start choosing again.

(00:49:35): So I really,

(00:49:36): really,

(00:49:37): really want women to take the time to heal themselves so that when they start

(00:49:43): dating again,

(00:49:44): they are really,

(00:49:46): really discerning.

(00:49:47): And that requires going slowly and intentionally into any new dating or relationships.

(00:49:55): And it sucks.

(00:49:56): And it's not romantic.

(00:49:57): It's not exciting.

(00:49:58): And it's not like full of fireworks and no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

(00:50:01): But that shit dies.

(00:50:04): And you'll be left exactly where you are now.

(00:50:07): So,

(00:50:08): you know,

(00:50:08): the intentionality with which you went into your marriage is exactly what I want

(00:50:13): for everybody.

(00:50:14): I want that level of intentionality.

(00:50:18): And that's the only way you're going to actually heal and have a better

(00:50:23): relationship on the other side if you choose to at all.

(00:50:27): Yeah.

(00:50:27): So I would tell listeners,

(00:50:29): I met my husband about two years after I got out of a really bad relationship.

(00:50:35): Not an abusive one.

(00:50:36): Hi, Jessie.

(00:50:36): You might be listening.

(00:50:38): But just we were like really ill-suited to each other.

(00:50:41): And I was just destroyed by the end of this relationship.

(00:50:46): And I made a list of the non-negotiables that I wanted.

(00:50:52): And the way I assessed whether my partners met this list was not to ask them.

(00:50:57): Because then they'll all say, oh, yeah, of course I'm a feminist.

(00:50:59): Of course I love women.

(00:51:00): Of course I care about good sex.

(00:51:03): I looked at behavior over a long period of time.

(00:51:06): And I think that making what you need objective and measurable,

(00:51:11): rather than saying I want someone who's nice,

(00:51:13): identifying what nice means,

(00:51:16): and then looking at behavior to assess that is really important.

(00:51:20): the only way that it's going to work in a profoundly broken society.

(00:51:23): And even then, a lot of men are going to sneak through.

(00:51:26): So like you said, you just have to move slowly.

(00:51:29): So the final thing I have for you is we have an advice question from a reader.

(00:51:33): So I always do this when I have a guest,

(00:51:35): and Kate and I are going to kind of brainstorm an answer to this together and see

(00:51:39): what we can come up with.

(00:51:41): So here's this reader's question.

(00:51:43): Is there anything women can do to counter the misogyny in the family court system?

(00:51:49): And can we ever use misogyny to our advantage?

(00:51:54): Wow.

(00:51:55): Okay.

(00:51:58): So the first part of the question is absolutely.

(00:52:02): And part of that is what we were talking about earlier about

(00:52:08): having a strategy mindset and understanding that when women show emotion,

(00:52:16): particularly in court,

(00:52:18): we are deemed crazy and unstable.

(00:52:21): And it sucks, but it's the fact of the system.

(00:52:26): And so we have got to have some level of acceptance of the fact that that is the

(00:52:31): system we're in,

(00:52:32): right?

(00:52:33): Because if you're not changing the system when you're

(00:52:38): when you're actually trying to get something from it, right?

(00:52:42): Your activism is welcome when you're on the other side.

(00:52:46): But the first thing you have to do is understand and accept what system you're in

(00:52:52): and then have a completely clear perspective

(00:52:54): clear-headed strategy,

(00:52:56): understanding what's legal versus what's fair,

(00:53:00): having this strategy mindset,

(00:53:02): and a lot of patience because this is not a fair system and it takes a very long time.

(00:53:08): And if you want things to unfold in your favor, not rushing it is going to be a huge part of it.

(00:53:15): So the

(00:53:18): Those I have my seven step divorce mindset reset,

(00:53:21): which is,

(00:53:22): you know,

(00:53:22): sort of outlines all of this stuff,

(00:53:24): which is really important.

(00:53:27): So that's sort of how you work within it.

(00:53:31): Using it to your advantage.

(00:53:33): I don't know.

(00:53:34): Zahn, what do you think?

(00:53:35): I'm going to toss that to you.

(00:53:36): I liked what you said about recognizing the system that you're in.

(00:53:40): Because,

(00:53:41): you know,

(00:53:41): people often say,

(00:53:42): like,

(00:53:42): aren't you making women feel bad when they see misogyny everywhere and when they

(00:53:48): see most men as sexist and most relationships as sexist?

(00:53:50): And I actually think the answer is no, because then you can stop blaming yourself.

(00:53:55): You can stop saying, well, I'm not a good enough person, partner, wife.

(00:53:58): I've caused this to happen.

(00:53:59): Yeah.

(00:54:00): And I think the same is true in the court system.

(00:54:03): And something that I hear quite frequently from women that is very alarming is,

(00:54:09): well,

(00:54:09): I'm going to teach the system a lesson.

(00:54:11): I'm going to show how much it's hurt me by disobeying this court order.

(00:54:15): And you're not going to teach the system a lesson.

(00:54:18): The system is the system.

(00:54:20): And so you just have to—

(00:54:22): know what you're working with.

(00:54:24): And I do think that there are some ways that you can use misogyny to your advantage

(00:54:28): while still remembering that misogyny is a system designed to disadvantage women

(00:54:32): and there is no opt-out button.

(00:54:34): But if you understand what misogyny wants from you,

(00:54:40): if you understand what patriarchy says a good mother looks and acts and talks like,

(00:54:46): then you can use that to inform your strategy.

(00:54:50): You know, you have to seem gentle and kind and not combative and

(00:54:55): Not weird, unfortunately.

(00:54:56): And the more you can conform to the image of what a good mother should be and do,

(00:55:02): especially if you're a working mother,

(00:55:04): especially if,

(00:55:05): you know,

(00:55:06): your partner is throwing your feminism in your face,

(00:55:08): I think the more...

(00:55:11): you will have an advantage.

(00:55:13): And it's really easy to do because we're all socialized to do that shit anyway.

(00:55:17): We all know what misogyny wants from us, even if we have rejected it.

(00:55:22): So,

(00:55:23): you know,

(00:55:23): like you said,

(00:55:23): like not trying to fight the system while you're in it and stepping back and thinking,

(00:55:30): how do I need to be perceived?

(00:55:33): And what do I need to do to be perceived that way?

(00:55:37): I think that's brilliant.

(00:55:38): As always, Zahn, you're brilliant.

(00:55:41): I think it's absolutely true, right?

(00:55:43): Down to like, how do I dress for court?

(00:55:44): Yes.

(00:55:45): Right?

(00:55:46): Because it should be, I dress however the fuck I want.

(00:55:49): No, misogyny dictates that there's a certain way that you have to dress for court.

(00:55:54): And it's going to be understated and it's going to be simple and it's not going to

(00:55:58): call any attention to any of your body parts,

(00:56:00): right?

(00:56:01): And so that is how we...

(00:56:04): um use misogyny to our advantage as it were yeah um i think that's great i would

(00:56:11): also tell people you have to do what the court tells you to do um the fastest path

(00:56:17): to losing custody of your children and really the only way that normal non-abusive

(00:56:23): mothers typically lose custody of their children is by disobeying court orders um

(00:56:28): you just can't do it you can't not show up for court you can't disobey the court

(00:56:32): order you can't fight with the judge

(00:56:34): You can't do any of that.

(00:56:35): It's not fair.

(00:56:36): But, you know, you can have a fair outcome if you just do what you're told as much as it sucks.

(00:56:45): And I would also ask yourself,

(00:56:48): like,

(00:56:49): in the eyes of society,

(00:56:51): not in my eyes or Kate's eyes or the eyes of feminism—

(00:56:56): What are the most important points here?

(00:56:58): So a typical judge is not going to care that there's household labor inequality,

(00:57:03): you know,

(00:57:03): that you gave up your career for whatever.

(00:57:06): They're going to care about physical violence.

(00:57:07): They're going to care about extreme abuse of the kids.

(00:57:10): You know, they are going to care if you're the primary caregiver about like what that meant.

(00:57:14): You know, you can talk about maintaining the status quo and all of that.

(00:57:19): But you really need to focus on the stuff that society cares about and leave all

(00:57:23): the other stuff out because it's a distraction.

(00:57:25): You know, a judge is going to skim your case.

(00:57:28): And if they see he hit me,

(00:57:30): he punched me,

(00:57:31): he kicked me,

(00:57:32): he screamed at the kids,

(00:57:32): he broke the child's arm,

(00:57:33): whatever,

(00:57:35): that's much more useful than 11 pages and one sentence about,

(00:57:39): oh,

(00:57:39): and by the way,

(00:57:40): he has guns.

(00:57:42): Right.

(00:57:42): And also,

(00:57:43): by the way,

(00:57:43): the most distressing part about this is that even then,

(00:57:48): sometimes the court doesn't care.

(00:57:50): Yeah.

(00:57:50): We've got a case right now in Colorado, Rachel Pickerel Hawkins.

(00:57:54): She refused...

(00:58:00): reunification therapy for her children with her husband or her ex-husband.

(00:58:05): Kate, I'm going to interrupt you real quick.

(00:58:07): Can you just explain like super briefly what reunification therapy is?

(00:58:10): Because I think a lot of people don't know.

(00:58:12): Yes.

(00:58:13): Okay.

(00:58:14): Reunification therapy is,

(00:58:18): quote,

(00:58:18): therapy that very often is used as a way to,

(00:58:23): quote,

(00:58:24): reunify children with their abusers.

(00:58:29): And there is a whole it's a rabbit hole to go down,

(00:58:34): but very,

(00:58:35): very often it is used in conjunction with claims of parental alienation.

(00:58:43): which is a parental alienation syndrome was coined by this guy,

(00:58:49): quote,

(00:58:50): Dr.

(00:58:50): Richard Gardner,

(00:58:51): who was an absolute quack and he's been debunked.

(00:58:55): He essentially accused children of,

(00:59:01): I can't,

(00:59:02): I always never get it right because it always is so complicated and convoluted,

(00:59:06): but essentially he was a child sexual assault apologist.

(00:59:10): Oh my God.

(00:59:11): in many ways and blaming the children for, quote, seducing their rapists.

(00:59:17): So everything that Richard Gardner has done should be absolutely debunked.

(00:59:21): But unfortunately, it has become a cornerstone of the family court system.

(00:59:25): So

(00:59:26): So as soon as somebody says,

(00:59:28): oh,

(00:59:28): but my wife is alienating my children,

(00:59:32): then we get into it immediately.

(00:59:37): Right.

(00:59:37): What parents are usually doing is trying to protect their children from abusers.

(00:59:42): But as soon as they're accused of alienation,

(00:59:45): then it sort of kickstarts this whole system in the family court system,

(00:59:49): which is really dangerous and can very often include reunification therapy.

(00:59:54): And this is where children are forced into often camps where they're like go away

(01:00:00): for days at a time and or months at a time and are forced into intensive therapy

(01:00:05): with parents who have abused them,

(01:00:08): often sexually abused them,

(01:00:10): often physically abused them.

(01:00:12): And so in Colorado,

(01:00:15): there is a woman,

(01:00:16): Rachel Pickerel Hawkins,

(01:00:18): whose ex-husband is accused of,

(01:00:21): and I think there is evidence to support that he raped his child or children or

(01:00:31): sexually abused them.

(01:00:34): And so she refused to let them go into therapy with him.

(01:00:38): And so now she is doing jail time.

(01:00:40): And she has to go every weekend into jail.

(01:00:43): So these are ways in which the family court system can be so,

(01:00:51): so unfair and biased against women.

(01:00:54): And I don't want to scare anyone.

(01:00:56): And I don't want people to freak out because these incidents are rare, right?

(01:01:01): But they're real.

(01:01:03): Even if you have evidence of abuse,

(01:01:05): even if it has been proven,

(01:01:07): very often you will see a judge say,

(01:01:10): well,

(01:01:11): he did it once and he hasn't done it in a long time.

(01:01:14): So, you know, we're going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

(01:01:18): Or, well, he abused you and raped you, but he never actually did it with the children.

(01:01:23): Or he did it to one child, but not the other.

(01:01:25): So it's okay.

(01:01:27): Right?

(01:01:27): These are ways in which the family court system is really dangerous.

(01:01:33): Um...

(01:01:34): And again,

(01:01:34): I don't want to freak people out because it's not always this dangerous,

(01:01:38): but we have to find really strategic ways to work with it and work within it so

(01:01:45): that we can try to avoid something like this at all costs.

(01:01:50): And I do think that she will be vindicated.

(01:01:53): Rachel Pickle Hawkins will be vindicated.

(01:01:55): I happen to know that the governor of Colorado is like interested in looking at these,

(01:02:04): you know,

(01:02:04): the laws that allow these kinds of things.

(01:02:05): And there is systemic change happening.

(01:02:08): But, you know, for example, in the Violence Against Women Act,

(01:02:15): There are provisions now that are against these reunification camps,

(01:02:20): but they have to be legislated in every state individually.

(01:02:24): And even when they are, they're hard to enforce.

(01:02:29): I don't know if that answered any any question.

(01:02:31): I think that's helpful.

(01:02:32): And I'm also I will put in the show notes.

(01:02:35): There are a couple of investigative journalists who have been working specifically

(01:02:38): on this issue,

(01:02:39): one of whom I'm hoping to have on the show in a couple of months.

(01:02:43): So I will I will put some information in the show notes for people who want to

(01:02:46): learn more about this,

(01:02:48): because it really is quite a rabbit hole.

(01:02:50): And the level of abuse that children are exposed to in these reunification camps is

(01:02:54): just shocking.

(01:02:56): shocking yeah and also a lot of these investigative journalists unfortunately um

(01:03:00): get into it and then they have to get out because it's so toxic and exhausting yes

(01:03:06): um you know there are other people there's a there's a group of us that are you

(01:03:10): know kind of working behind the scenes to try and get legislation and all sorts of

(01:03:14): stuff changed and um you know doing amazing work but it is exhausting and it is um

(01:03:19): disheartening and it is emotionally taxing

(01:03:23): Yeah, it's just, all right.

(01:03:25): Well, on that note.

(01:03:26): Anyway, on that note.

(01:03:28): Well, Kate, I've loved having you.

(01:03:30): Thank you so much for coming on.

(01:03:33): Kate is doing just incredible work.

(01:03:35): So I really urge everyone to check Kate out.

(01:03:38): Follow her on social media.

(01:03:40): Buy her new book, The D Word.

(01:03:42): It might be the lifeline you've been waiting for.

(01:03:45): Kate can really help you through these just horrible storms.

(01:03:49): And if you like this podcast, I hope you'll share it with other people.

(01:03:53): Subscribe, leave a review, comment, all of the above.

(01:03:56): This really does make a difference.

(01:03:58): You can get bonus episodes by subscribing at zon.substack.com,

(01:04:03): and you can see a whole bunch of other stuff at liberatingmotherhood.org.

(01:04:08): So thank you so much, and I will talk to you guys in two weeks.