Welcome to Alumni Live: The Podcast.

These are conversations with Grand Valley State University film and video

graduates about the industry, the film/ video, major and alumni profiles.

Welcome to another edition of Alumni Live.

My name is Joel Potrykus.

I am a Assistant Professor here at Grand Valley State University

speaking with alum Ishkwaazhe Shane McSauby, who is a new visiting faculty

member here at Grand Valley as well.

How you doing Shane?

I'm good.

Happy to be here.

So what I want to do today is talk a little bit about your time in the

film program here at Grand Valley.

How you found your way in the industry, if you pursued grad school, how

you found your way back to Grand Valley, and then what's your hopes

here and in the industry today, so.

Can you just give us a little backstory on where you grew up and how you

became interested in filmmaking?

Yeah yeah.

So I'm from Grand Rapids, Michigan.

I grew up, born and raised here, and I've just always loved film

for as long as I can remember.

When I was younger, I wanted to be an actor though.

you know, you don't know the process of filmmaking until

you get to a certain point.

So I wanted to be an actor growing up, but I grew up going to the

Alpine Four Theater, which was like the second run theater.

It had a dollar twenty five tickets

So instead of going on vacations or doing other things, we always just went

to the movies multiple times a week.

I just saw whatever was out and grew up that way and then my aunt also had

this double decker VCR and she would just record boxes of tapes of movies.

We would just have boxes and boxes of recorded VHSs with

three or four movies on them.

If I wasn't at the theater, I was just watching these tapes.

I grew up in that way and I was watching movies all the

time and completely obsessed.

Can you think of one at the theater and one on VHS that really

stuck with you more than others?

One that sticks out with me in the theaters is honestly,

and this was a little, I was a little older, but "Titanic"?

I saw that one so many times in theaters, it's ridiculous.

And just has everything in it, drama and

and disaster and,it's just the package of everything.

And then for VHS, "Terminator 2".

I don't remember seeing that one in theaters, but I remember just

watching it obsessively on VHS.

So that, what do you think, is that like your elementary school,

high school, when all of this formative viewing is happening?

This would have been in elementary school.

Yeah, I remember it actually in , the fourth grade.

On Mondays, we would come back and sit in a circle and talk about our weekend and it

became a running joke in class where we would get to me and instead of asking what

I did over the weekend, they would just ask what movies I saw over the weekend.

So then, you just want to make movies and acting.

That's what we see, we don't know what's going on behind the camera

or even that there is a camera.

So, when do you start really taking it seriously like, this is what I

maybe wanna do for the rest of my life and how do you come to Grand Valley?

In my senior year of high school, they started a class that was

like a test run of film and video.

We had like mini DV then they taught us a very little bit about

framing and we edited on Premiere.

The final project was - you just make a short film.

And so mine was this ridiculously long 20 minute short film that was just a

rip off of a Clockwork - Orange" it was called a "Clockwork Chapter".

It had characters from "Clockwork Orange", like Droogs and it was just really

long, really bad 10 minute walking scenes, but, it was my first time really

creatively writing and staging stuff and filming it and being thoughtful.

Okay, how do I get this from the paper and get it into what I'm picturing in

my mind and get it into the camera?

It was so fun and I remember being like, okay, being behind the camera

is actually where I want to be.

This is cool.

Yeah that's cool, 'cause I mean, I think a lot of young filmmakers

are inspired by like big, loud, Titanic-y, Terminator kind of stuff.

But, I've seen some of your work while you're at Grand Valley.

I remember Sean Baker said that he went to NYU to make the next Die Hard...

and by the time he left, he was just making films about two

people talking for 10 minutes.

When did you start to find your voice and things that were important to you

that you wanted to talk about in films?

I don't know, man, I feel like I didn't find my voice.

It wasn't until, recently that I really found where I want to be as far as

that goes, after high school, I grew up just watching the mainstream stuff...

the furthest I got was like Kubrick and Scorsese, which was a great place to be.

In college, I went to GRCC and took a basic film studies class and that was

the first time where I watched "City Lights" by Chaplin and that completely

blew my mind because I was one of, we're like, "I don't want to watch a black and

white movie, that's boring, that's old".

The class was laughing, I was laughing, I was feeling emotion like, all of the

moments were hitting even though this was in like, 34, or whatever year and I

just remember being like, "Wow, this is so powerful of a movie,"and it's silent!

We watched "Cinema Paradiso", we watched "Casablanca", which is still one of

my favorites, I love old Hollywood.

We definitely watched "Bicycle Thieves", which then introduced me into Neo-Realism

and World Cinema and Art Film, which then led me into the New Wave, French New Wave.

All of these new forms, all of these new things were just blowing my mind.

Especially the French New Wave.

Once I transferred from GRCC to GVSU, I started taking more in depth,

film studies classes and just started watching more stuff on my own, like

discovering Criterion and just exposing myself to different forms , like

Japanese New Wave is also incredible.

I remember the first time watching "Occult Is My Passport" and I was just

like, "it's so cool", and just so fresh, like it just remains fresh.

And so, really then I was like, "Oh, movies aren't just these Titanics

and Terminator 2s and Predators", there's just a whole literal world

out there of ways to make movies.

I think as, early film students, you get a little pretentious - "I don't

want to watch that trash anymore", I'm like, "I'm sticking to my Godard's"

so, I got into that for a little while - for quite a while - and I

still love those movies, but that's where I started being like, "Okay, I

think I want to tell something else."

I think having seen your work, you're riding that fine line between your early

inspirations like "Terminator 2", but also Godard and Truffaut, combining

some, like there's blood in your movies!

And there's also this artful way to it so like, at Grand Valley, what were the

classes that really connected with you as a filmmaker, where like, you discover

directing or audio or cinematography?

Cause you're ultimately a Director, but all Directors know the whole world and

know how to write and know how to produce.

So what was it that really hooked you and were like, "Yeah,

this is what I want to do."

Is it writing or directing, what's your true love and did

you find it at Grand Valley?

it's always been writing and directing.

Taking a screenwriting course was great.

I remember being very thankful that I was learning how to actually write a

screenplay and that was really exciting.

I remember also, at that time, the screenwriting professor had worked in

Hollywood as like a script doctor and that was a big deal, but I remember on

the first day of class, he was like, "Who in here wants to be Writer/Directors?"

And everybody raised their hand, he was like, "You'll be

lucky if one of you makes it."

And I remember being like, "Damn.

What is, like, what a jerk."

But I felt that as a challenge and I think about that to this day.

When you're in your 20s and you're fresh to filmmaking, I feel like

the reason that I'm here -that I'm still pursuing this - is because

I've had people just being " Yes.

Keep going, you're doing great."

And I've been very fortunate to have that.

I remember, we had Marie Ulrich who taught Fiction 1 and she did this indie

film, "Alley Cat" that premiered at the Chicago International Film Festival and

at the time, that was a huge deal for us.

Just to have filmmakers in the program, she was so influential.

She introduced me to Judith Weston, as far as directing actors go and this

whole new way of working with actors and thinking about the craft of acting.

One of the most influential people was also Suzanne Zack.

Suzanne taught me the fundamentals of everything, and just championed

us in a way that was really fundamental I feel like in me being

like, "Okay, yeah, I can do this."

We had Philbin, John Philbin, who was also fun and taught us how to shoot

on film and ...yeah, so fiction classes were always my favorite.

so I didn't get to direct until my thesis.

That was my first time actually directing on my own.

Yeah, let's talk about that.

I think a lot of students are in that situation where they don't get an

opportunity to direct in maybe a Fiction Filmmaking class, but the thesis

is their chance to really put it out there and make something big and bold.

What did you do with that film - did you really love it and decide to

submit it to film festivals, use it as a calling card to find an

agent - What happened after that film?

For the thesis at GVSU?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So with that, at the time of not getting chosen to direct, I was probably salty?

I don't remember any feelings of saltiness, but it was probably there.

While I was on set, I gave it my all, but I was also very observational as

far as what are these directors doing?

What do I like that they're doing?

How is it landing on the actors?

How is it landing on the DPs?

And so I was really observing what they were doing, what I would do

differently, what I thought was working, what I thought wasn't.

I was just doing my job, but also really focusing on observing.

And then, with my thesis, I was, obsessed with Linklater - I still am today, but-

What's your favorite Linklater

? "Before Sunset".

The second, the middle one of the trilogy.

He's just one of those weird directors who's done so many different genres

and styles and tones and I'm always curious what are they responding

to Linklater which version of him?

Right, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean I love a lot of his work.

but yeah, so I was like, "I'm going to do a walk and talk romance

It was like 15 minutes long.

At the time I was like, "Oh man, this is gonna get me into

Sundance, this is Cinema."

it was a lot of fun to shoot, I shot it with my friends at GV.

Caleb Dawdy - who's one of the few others that was really into French New

Wave and Jazz and black and white movies and smoking cigarettes and we would

just hang out and listen to records and watch New Wave movies - it was very

ridiculous, but we got along so well, and it was such a good, working relationship.

He DP'd that and then Carese Bartlett, you know, former GV people.

But yeah, we made it, it was received well at the showcase, which was great.

The professors loved it, which was great.

I'm feeling good.

And then I get it on FilmFreeway and I was like, "Alright, Sundance."

I just put it out - and that was my first time really feeling

the taste of extreme rejection.

Every big film festival or mid-sized I just got rejected from mostly everywhere.

I certainly got into some but, couldn't tell you the names of the festivals.

I moved to New York City right after graduating for no reason other than Caleb,

the guy I just mentioned was moving there and his partner, Terra, was doing her

Master's program so they asked me if I wanted to go ." So I got it into this

tiny film festival called, I don't know, New Filmmakers New York, or something?

I forget what it's called, but it screens at Anthology Archives, and so I moved

there and got in, and I got to screen my thesis in a really old theater, in the

Lower East Side, which just felt so cool?

The theater was completely empty - it was me and the other

filmmakers and that was it, maybe like we all had one friend there.

But it was so cool regardless.

It was like, seeing it in a theater, out in New York, or just outside of

GVSU, I was like, "Okay, I want to do this, I want to get more butts in these

seats," it didn't get me anything besides, a challenge or the will to

keep going and to do something stronger.

Yeah, I know a lot of filmmakers, once they get all those rejection

letters, sometimes that just puts a damper on your creative spirit

and you start to doubt that.

But you moved to New York and you didn't doubt yourself, or maybe you did, I don't

know, but you still - you got into the NYU grad program there so talk about when

you decided to, apply and what does that feel like when you get that acceptance

letter and just talk a little bit about your time at NYU, which is I'm sure much

different than it was at Grand Valley.

Yeah so actually that was three years later.

I moved to to NY , just to move there with no plan or anything.

Right.

And then, I want to touch on the self doubt part, cause

that's, that was always there.

Yeah.

That's still always there.

Yep.

But yeah, I moved to New York, I wrote a script there called "Mino

Bimaadiziwin", and then I submitted it to the Sundance lab - specifically for the

Indigenous program - and it was chosen.

So they take your script and you go to Santa Fe and you workshop it for a week.

The first day, you workshop the script.

The second day , they hire actors and you work with actors, but you also have

a team of advisors who are Directors who work in the industry and you test

shoot a scene, and then you edit it, and then you screen it and get feedback,

but all throughout you have these Directors behind you giving advice

and walking you through the process.

Two of them were NYU professors.

And through that, they were asking me questions that I just never had ever

thought about, like questions as far as story, character, and motivations,

and just basic things that we think about now, but at that time was

like, "Oh, these are good questions."

What does your character want in this scene?

What are they doing in the scene?

After that workshop of just intense 12 hour days, just thinking about the script,

thinking about the scene nonstop - I realized that I had so much still to

learn, like I came out of GVSU hot thinking "Alright, I'm gonna do these

things" and then I went there, did the workshop and I was like "Shit, I don't

know anything," that's just how much there is of filmmaking and storytelling.

Yeah, that's what Kurosawa said when he got his honorary Oscar at age 80, he's

like, "I still have so much to learn."

Like, that is very true, man.

Yeah.

So that lab - is it true that they don't want you to actually work on

the, actual script during that lab?

I don't think we actually did work on the script in the lab,

So you have this amazing chance at the Sundance Screenwriters

Lab and then they workshop your script and then you filmed that.

Yeah, so then they give you a grant to make it - it was $25,000,

which at that time I was like, "I have no idea what to do."

How do you even spend that money, probably.

And so I was like, "Alright, New York," is, - I'm just working all

the time, I'm not getting anything, it's depressing and expensive, and

so I was like, "I'm moving back home.

I'm gonna make these movies".

I moved back to Grand Rapids to focus on the film because it takes place there.

This was in 2017 we shot it and released it.

So then I brought on some people it was a really great shoot.

I was like, okay, I got this Sundance financed film.

I feel really good about it.

Submitted to Sundance Film Festival...

and got rejected.

And I was devastated,

Yeah, they foster your script and give you money to make it

and then say it's not good enough or, "Better luck next time, pal."

That's gotta be really confusing, if nothing else.

Yeah, it was.

Really took it hard.

Luckily, the Native program, they told me before I got the generic

Sundance, rejection, but they talked to me over the phone so it wasn't

as hard, I was still devastated.

All throughout GVSU and school, I was like, I've always

hated school all my life.

I'm never going back.

I'm out.

I'm in the real world."

But if I ever went to grad school, it would be NYU because that's

where Scorsese and Spike Lee went.

Like I said, I had two NYU professors at my lab, called them up, talked more

about grad school and at NYU specifically.

There was two weeks before the deadline for grad school, I hadn't

thought about it until I got that rejection from Sundance and then I

was just like, "I gotta do this."

I thought I was a complete failure, which isn't true.

I need to learn everything I can now.

That's why I applied to, grad school and that was in 2018 that I went.

I was very lucky in that those two people I met were at NYU

How long was that program scheduled to be?

It's a three to four year program,

And then COVID interrupted some of that, right?

So, what was your time like at NYU?

It was incredible, you take two semesters worth of classes every semester so it's

double the class load that you have.

You're there from 9am until around 5 and then you're always working on a project.

So you have one big project that you work on for the semester and every class

is garnered towards that end project.

You take a Producing class, a Directing class, a Writing class, a Directing The

Actors class, Editing, Cinematography, Aesthetics, Film Viewing, some random

ones sprinkled in there like Film Safety - that's the first year.

And then, you get directing exercises every week.

You have to cast and shoot directing exercises.

They start off very simple and then they get more complex as you go, you know,

but it's like go shoot an establishing shot from two different ways of a

location that tells us character of the location or something like that, and

then it gets much more specific and you're doing it with cast and stuff, so.

You're there for 12 hours a day at NYU just thinking about film non-stop

and it's the most intense time of my life, it's really like film boot camp.

That lasts for four years.

So, it all kind of culminates similar to Grand Valley in a thesis film, right?

Yeah so, before my thesis, I made a short called "Happy Thanksgiving", and that's

the second year film and you focus on one 10 minute short for the entire year.

And then you get three months off the middle of the year to shoot,

you have to work on everybody's and it's like rotating and stuff.

And then you edit it and you screen it in front of professors and you

get ripped apart in front of your class and you continue to edit it.

But my film, "Happy Thanksgiving" was shot on film, had all these

locations, it was in Grand Rapids, produced from New York and had a food

fight - like a very complicated script.

Lots of scenes, lots of characters, lots of things happening.

It was hell.

It was really the hardest shoot that I've ever had

- Just because the logistics?

I know you were shooting on 16, but also just that many locations and characters?

Yeah.

Logistics, the weather was really bad, we happened to have just a

lot of weather related incidences.

A tree fell on one of the trailers and ripped it up, WKTV's trailer.

All these cars got stuck in mud, it was like natural disasters

all around, film disasters...

just everything that could go wrong did and then COVID happened

in the middle of the editing process and I got very depressed.

Stopped working completely.

Wasn't happy with how the movie was coming along.

I was like, "Again, I'm a failure," and so I stopped and I was like, "I'm done.

I'm putting this away.

I'm going to go travel, I don't know if I'll come back to filmmaking."

Wow.

I did, it was like, me and my partner drove around the

country and traveled around.

I went to like some activist protest camps.

Just got out and didn't think about movies at all.

And then, I was like, "You know what, so many people worked so hard

on this that I have to finish this.

I have to finish it at least for the actors and the crew."

So I did and was received really well by my class and by the NYU

community, so I was like, "Okay.

I need to do this again.

I need to do something."

And so for my thesis - this time, I'm going to learn from my

mistakes, I'm going to make one with two characters and that it.

and just really test how am I going to direct two people in one

location and keep it interesting.

So that was the idea of my thesis.

And that was The Beguiling, right?

Yeah.

So, you make "The Beguiling" and I know this is - as far as my understanding

of the Shane McSauby story - where things really start to happen as far

as industry attention and maybe even caught you off guard with how quickly

this one took off and got well received.

What is that editing process like as you're putting it together, cause

that is like the worst feeling when you're editing something and you're

just not seeing the magic, that was there on the page and on set.

So is "The Beguiling" like more of a confidence builder as you're filming it

and as you're editing it and then what do you do with it once you finish it?

To get the attention?

Yeah.

So, making it was a huge confidence booster because it was honestly one

of the best sets I've ever had . We really prepped for it, we shot it in my

apartment back in Brooklyn and it just came along so nicely, we had such a good

crew and it was really such a lovely time.

And then editing it, yeah, is always a journey and I brought out an editor

this time instead of doing it myself.

I built it to a certain point, passed it off to an editor, and

then we really worked together to do it and it took a long time to

get to a place that I was happy.

I was aiming for a TIFF deadline.

TIFF being the Toronto International Film Festival.

Yes, yes, Toronto International Film Festival . Which is, you know, big

and I was being very ambitious, I think.

Yeah, that's a top, five film festival in the world,

Yeah.

I was like, "I'm really happy with this, I think it's got potential."

So I submitted a rough cut - temporary score, temporary, color.

I got the notification that I was accepted and going to be screening and

then I thought it was a mistake, signed the paperwork as quick as I could, you

know, and was like, okay, contractually obligated to allow me to continue on

but yeah so, screen at TIFF - We hired a publicist that my partner knew - my

partner also produced it - so we had a plan going into TIFF because

I've heard of people getting into big festivals and it goes nowhere, so this

is a once in a lifetime opportunity, I want to get the most out of it, I

had meetings a lot while I was there, and one of those meetings was with a

management company, Entertainment 360.

We met a number of times just over the phone and that continued after

TIFF, we decided to work together.

And during this time, you had been hired as an Adjunct Professor in the winter

of 24 and then this semester - we are in the fall of 24 - you were brought

on as a Visiting Professor, so how have you found managing your teaching

load while also trying to be relevant in the industry and do your own thing?

Are you able to find that balance and is it like, beneficial to your filmmaking,

are they like feeding off each other?

Definitely feeding off of each other.

I would say the first semester that I taught, the winter semester, was really

hard as far as finding the balance.

I really just put all of my energy into the semester and multiple people tell me

like, it takes some time, but you'll find the balance and you have to make that.

I find that this semester, I'm finding more balance, but it

definitely feeds off each other.

It's really helpful and inspiring I feel like to be in these creative

spaces to be talking about story, to see people start to get it or

start to put it into practice.

I feed off of that, To see younger people explore and want to be creative.

It really makes you want to be on top of your stuff as far as a filmmaker goes.

I'm a Grand Valley alum too and going back to what you learned on "Happy

Thanksgiving" is something that I continue to learn and one of the

things that I brought to Grand Valley right away was let me help you get

your vision on film, but also let's try to reduce the stress levels.

I tell them in my Fiction 1 class, we're going to keep it

a maximum of two locations and a maximum of four characters.

I feel like that really helps them rein in their idea and find their

focus and make it manageable and realistic, on a two day shoot.

Are there any things that you learned that you didn't get at Grand Valley, you didn't

have someone say, "Hey Shane, keep the locations to one or two and the characters

to two or three to make this manageable."

Is there anything that you learned since your time at Grand Valley that you're now

bringing to your students in your classes?

Keeping things simple.

Really just trying to bring stuff down and really focus in on a moment.

Yeah, I think it's just natural to want to go big when you're young this

is usually what you're watching at that stage, it's like big grand things

and one of the things for writing specifically, is don't focus on plot.

You have the plot, but once you get in there it's like, we

watch movies for characters.

NYU is a very character-driven, storytelling place.

That's what sticks out to us, is like, what is the character doing?

If you focus too much on the plot and the theme, it's really easy to sort

of get lost and confused in the plot and in the themes so really focus on

just what your character's doing, give them an objective, and figure out what

they're doing and what's preventing them from doing that, and then how

do they feel about what they're doing as well, and it'll fall in place.

Spending all this time developing a voice as a filmmaker, now I feel like I

need to develop my voice as a professor, what can I bring that's new and fresh?

I mean it's inherently ingrained in how I teach because it's just my understanding,

I think it's every day and then every week is learning like, "Okay, this

didn't work so let's try something else," it's a lot of play and it's a lot of fresh

stuff to play with, which is exciting.

Yeah.

I didn't learn the thing about avoiding plot until really late in life when I was

getting my teeth cleaned and the dental hygienist was asking me what I do and I

got into that small talk while somebody's got a, pick in your mouth and she just

kept talking and she goes well, I guess that's why we go to the movies, right?

Just to feel something."

And I kind of dismissed it for a minute, and then I was like, "Oh

my gosh, she just blew my mind!

If we don't feel anything, what's the point of this?"

so.

Rely on those characters and emotions, man.

Right now you are still touring around festivals with "The Beguiling".

I assume the next step probably is developing your first feature maybe?

Like what's the goal for the next year or two?

So I have two features that I'm developing right now and trying to get those off

the ground as we continue on the festival circuit, using those spaces to get

some excitement around these features.

And then, I'm just really trying to work on my writing, routine

Yeah.

With our final thought here, I'm sure students listening to this or

anybody listening to this aspiring to be a filmmaker is - they always like,

what is there one piece of advice?

And I remember for me, it was actually when I was at Grand Valley.

I had had a lot of classes with Kim Roberts and John Philbin and I made my

thesis film - It was this music video, and it was really like slick, and looked

great, and it almost could play on MTV, and I was really excited about it.

And Kim Roberts was a big supporter of me, like I was this weird, experimental,

art house kind of guy and I showed her that thesis feeling so excited.

All she said was, "It's great, just doesn't feel like you".

And I was like, whoa, you know, for about half an hour, I was like, "Whatever

Kim, you don't know nothing, man!"

And then I was like, man, she is so right and it's like the one thing

daily I remind myself, " Yeah, this is good, but is this me?"

That is so crucial to me as a filmmaker and a professor,like somebody else

teaches it this way, but this is me.

What can you leave our listeners with the one thing that stuck with you or hopefully

will stick with future filmmakers?

I have two things, one is that - This is a journey and that filmmaking

is a marathon, not a sprint.

There's not even necessarily an end point.

Know that this is a really long process and it takes people a really

long time to get off the ground.

When you're in your twenties, that's when you're figuring out who you are.

And so, the way you do that is to explore life, focus on living, which is

corny , but true, you know, and then as you're exploring living, explore filming.

Be experimental, take risks, make mistakes.

That's the only way that you'll find your voice.

I feel like I didn't find mine until recently in my 30s where I was like, I

feel confident in who I am as a person?

But you're always still searching.

I think when you accept the fact that there's no sort of end point

in life - there's one I guess, but there's no point at which you just get

it and everything falls into place.

Yeah.

And once you understand that everybody's just trying to figure it out and you

can apply that to filmmaking, or whatever it is that you're passionate about and

that you're doing, it frees you from your expectations and you can just

be in the process of doing and making

. It takes time to get there but as you keep that in mind, keep making and

keep exploring and messing up and don't take failure and rejections to heart.

You know, It's all part of the process.

Yeah, I'm with you.

It took me about 15 years, I didn't find my voice till I was about 32.

And it just took 15 years of making and failing and little successes

and little failures until I kind of like, found that moment.

It's a big deal, you can only get there by putting in your

10, 000 hours, as they say.

Yeah.

Well thanks Shane!

It was great talking to you.

It's great to have you on campus, we'll catch up in the hallways but

until then, track down Shane's work.

Where can we find some of this work, Shane?

Some of it is on Vimeo.

I have a website - Ishkwaazhe.com.

I think it's linked on there, otherwise - I always feel pretentious

saying this, but you can Google my name and my Vimeo comes up.

You totally can!

You played TIFF, man, you're famous now!

I have no comment.

Alright!

But thanks for having me.

It was a pleasure.

See you guys.

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