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\f0\fs24 \cf0 \uc0\u8202 So welcome to the second episode of The Intersection Podcast. Today, we're going to be discussing how work is not separate from faith. And that made me think, uh, Ooh, how many times have I said, no, I can't do this because I'm going to work, or I can't do that activity because I'm, I'm doing this activity.\
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Yeah. Sometimes we separate our lives when God wants it all to be one, um, one total process. So, I'll pass you over to, uh, to Bob and Hugh. It's going to be mainly Hugh today, I think, and Hugh's going to, um, just give us his thoughts on that first, and then he's going to introduce us, introduce our guest.\
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Well, welcome everyone to our second Intersection podcast. We're delighted that you're joining us and delighted that you get to hear from a dear friend who truly is living out his faith. in the work, the company that he leads. So, um, as we're jumping in right now, I'll be interviewing Jervis DeChico and, um, we're looking forward to all that you've laid on his heart that you want to communicate to our audience today.\
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So as we start out Jervis, my first question for you is, who are you? Tell us about yourself. \
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Thank you. Um, I am a father, a husband, uh, a Christian and I am someone who believes that we have an opportunity through faith, uh, to do all things. And I don't mean that in a, uh, you know, a biblical quote way. I mean that what I have learned in the last several years is that faith is not a component of our walk.\
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It is our walk. So you asked who I am, and I think the best way to answer that is, Is is in story form many many years ago in in 2009 Uh, I was two years into financial services Uh, which is the job that I always wanted. I'm one of those very strange humans that Wanted to be in finance from a young age.\
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It's not very mysterious My father ran a mortgage office and my stepdad was a financial advisor I grew up reading the wall street journal over breakfast fascinated by markets and how you could You know buy a stock and it would turn into money. My favorite nintendo game was the wall street kid. And so Uh, you know, it was really it was part of who I was Um, but then in 2009 two years into the business doing very well.\
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I was in real estate securities and in in the states You In 2009, real estate was the absolute worst sector to be in. And so over a period of 12 months, uh, I lost my marriage. I came home from church actually to note on the door from my wife telling me she was leaving me. Uh, my income was down 80%. My dad had been my best friend and biggest support through my divorce died suddenly and without wanting.\
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And by February of the following year, I lost my house to foreclosure. And so, what I learned during that time, is that the systems that we tend to think of as fundamental to our being aren't there when you need them. In fact, when you need them the most, they, they sort of push you down the most. And that planted some very important seeds that softened my heart, really changed my journey, helped me to stop worshipping at the altar of money and realize that, you know, faith was the only way to live because actually during that time, I was deeply depressed, um, for, for a long stretch.\
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And, um, wasn't faithful, wasn't, wasn't really interested in God, felt like God had betrayed me. But, I felt, um, very much against my will, God building me back up. And, and the best metaphor that I can use, Hugh, is it was like I was in this pit of despair, and God was building scaffolding underneath me.\
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without my request and, and, and sometimes even at my, you know, against my will, lifting me up and I could feel it happening. And that began a very long journey to where I am now, which is attempting to live my life, uh, through faith as opposed to the segmented life. \
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Jervis, that's a powerful story. Thank you.\
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I learned some new things about you and I've known you for quite a while. Um, that was powerful. Uh, Jervis, I just have to say you have a unique hobby. I just want to throw this in before we keep going. What's this unique hobby that you have and maybe how does it relate to what you've just shared? \
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Well, I think the unique hobby you're referring to is caving.\
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Yes. I'm not exactly certain how it relates to what I just shared. I love exploring the underground with friends. You know, the, the The adventure and the daring involved in that activity are, are really fun for me. Uh, but it's really, it's primarily about the community, the people that I go down there with.\
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Uh, our dear, dear friends and everyone that's joined us as I joined in that spirit, uh, of, of camaraderie and, and, uh, and joy. So \
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now do people still call that spelunking or is it only called? \
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Spelunkers are the people that cavers save when they get drunk or lost in caves. Is that right? Yeah, so, so you know right away that someone is not a serious caver if they refer to the activity as spelunking.\
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Wow, then I can't consider myself \
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a caver. It's funny, Jervis, because, um, I think the main thing you must have to have if you caver is faith. \
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Yeah, \
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either in each other or in, uh, in the fact that you can get in and get out of those things. Um, uh, and don't ever invite me to go caving either because it'd be claustrophobic.\
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Well, Jervis, we'll have to trade some stories sometime. \
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Yeah, \
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I'd love to do that. \
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Jervis, you know, interesting following up the story you launched out with this on, um, I believe that this fits with why did you, um, what prompted you to launch Prosper Bridge? \
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Yeah, so I worked in financial services, um, investments, insurance, uh, financial strategic planning for businesses, individuals and families, uh, and family offices for a long time.\
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And I was growing more and more dissatisfied with that work. And the work itself is not the problem to you. It, what, what was, what was pulling on my heart was that when you work in that sector, Particularly in the States, you're only really helping the very fortunate few, uh, become even more fortunate.\
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And I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with that. But what I realized in doing some pro bono work was that my heart really pried out to help the folks that, you know, work in good shape. Uh, when you're a financial planner, the people coming into your office, they don't need help. They want help, uh, but they don't need help.\
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They're, they've already achieved a great level of privilege to be walking through your door. And I really wanted to help the people that needed help. And so, I was at a financial services firm, a Fortune 50, one of the largest companies in the United States. Uh at the time and We thought myself and some other christians that were working at the firm with me were meeting weekly and praying about how we could touch more lives Uh, we thought that we were going to solve the problem from the inside and the leaders of the company even uh, You know intimated that they were interested in us building a process to help those that weren't fortunate access the access progress in the economy and You Um, we put together some ideas and we met with them again and uh, they basically said, uh, that's great.\
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But no, thank you We serve rich people here and um You know what's interesting about that is I have another friend who just went into financial services with the same objective of trying to help more people uh make economic progress and she was clear that when she joined this company another fortune 50 company that she was going to want to do the same and she Just three months in had her sit down with the leadership team and they said that's a great idea But for now shut up and dial and uh, I was uh, unsurprised but saddened that that that's still a state of affairs There's here about eight years after I had the same conversation \
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service Where do you think this this desire to help people who are not wealthy who?\
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Need the financial help that you offer through prosper brutes. What where did that come from? \
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I mean answering that question goes back to the You know, the, the core subject of this podcast, um, which is living the integrated life and stopping seeing ourselves as compartmentalized beings. You heard the first story that I, that I shared, uh, uh, I used to work at a summer camp, a Christian summer camp.\
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And, uh, folks used to ask me what, what was the greatest moment of your life. And it was helping this young man. Who didn't have a father. His father had left the family when he was young. Uh, this is in the 90s and his mom was, uh, is gay and, and is now married to her, her wife. And at the time was living with her wife.\
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And at that time, uh, this is 26 years ago, that was not acceptable, uh, in the, in the United States. Uh, and, and it was very difficult for him. And he felt more loved by his mom's partner than his mom. So he was very, he was, he, he had a lot of behavior issues. As you might imagine, he was extremely athletic and sometimes he channeled that into negative physical activity with other people.\
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Anyway, we, we ended up having a great relationship over us. Oh, he was there for seven weeks, full seven weeks of overnight camp. And, um, the second to last week of camp, he earned the highest award at camp for leadership and leadership. and camaraderie, and that was something that he hadn't thought was possible beginning of the summer.\
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And helping him see his own potential and break away from his misconceptions of worth, uh, to me was, it was the most, I still choke up a little bit thinking about it, it was the most fulfilling thing I had ever done. And so the opportunity to awaken worth inside people and help them, uh, see that they're more valuable than the numbers in their bank account, uh, is something that's extremely important to me.\
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And, and fundamentally, uh, you know, the, the, one of the hard lines that Jesus drew was you can't serve God and money. And I think when, when most people read that, that verse, they think of, of mammon as greed, but the reality is that scarcity Um, can be just as much, if not more of a master over people than breed.\
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And so the folks that increasingly are struggling to make ends meet, which is a grueling percentage of our population, unfortunately. Have a very hard time not worshiping money because when you can't put food on the table, it's very hard not to think that dollars are the solution to your problem. \
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Jervis, you, um, as you're describing, I see you're a man of faith.\
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Tell me now, how are you integrating your faith into what you do with your company, Prosper Bridge? And, um, what does it look like daily? What does it look like weekly? What does it look like kind of overall, in a sense, your kind of mission and values of Prosper Bridge? Prosper Bridge \
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Yeah, I think, you know, this is something that, that continues to evolve.\
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And, and grow in me. And I think that's, we'll talk about a little bit later. The leadership circle certainly helped give structure to this, but you know, even the word integrated feels like it's not strong enough because it's, it's, it's, it's not even two things coming together. It's just one thing being, uh, there's a great book that I would recommend to anyone listening to this podcast called called to rain, uh, by the way, that won't be the last time I make a book recommendation.\
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Uh, the, the book, uh, All Terrain, that the, the fundamental thesis of the book is that our, our responsibility as Christians is to sit and share one with God. And we sit and share one with God by reversing the order that the world tells us we use to achieve success. So the world tells us you achieve success by doing, by performing well.\
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So that you can have the things that you want and the life you want, so that you could be the person you wanna be. That's, that's the message that's driven into our head every day. And this author turns that equation around and says, no, you start by sitting in peace with God, by being n God, by recognizing your identity as a child of God.\
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And existing there fully and completely before you even think about moving on to step two, which is recognize that as God's child, you have everything you need. You have all sufficiency in all things, and you can then do all things through Christ. So, um, you know, it's even less to me an integration of components now and more just a daily striving to just be and recognize that all of those things that that faith is not, uh, an element of a successful life, but it's the really the, the, the only ingredient is to attempt to keep your mind aligned with God and Christ.\
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And this is all biblical as, as you know, you know, we all want to have the mind of price, bring every God in captivity to Christ. And let that being, uh, grow into the work that you do. And for some of us, that will mean that our work is in, uh, you know, the religious sphere, and for some, some of us like me, uh, my work is primarily in the private economic sphere, but it also bleeds into the public sphere.\
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Uh, I'm, I'm increasingly working on policy. And with nonprofits, you know, it's obviously part of my existence as the, as a parent and husband, and, and, you know, instead of thinking of each of those things as separate activities that I'm trying to master. I'm really just trying to master being with God. \
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I think that's really well said, Jervis.\
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I like that. Uh, I know my wife and I, for a long time, um, talked many times about being and doing and how is it that you actually are satisfied with being, and sometimes it's still difficult because of the culture and world we live in. I also, uh, appreciated your, your question about the word, being with God.\
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integrated, uh, and it caused me to think a little, and, you know, we, we sometimes most people talk about balancing their lives and we, we try to shun that. Okay. But we then talk about an integrated life and it, it strikes me that we should be a little more careful because The integrated life is something that the Holy Spirit actually does the integrating.\
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So when we talk about an integrated life, we're not asking people to, to do the integrating. No, that's not how it works. Uh, we, we want an integrated life and, and the doer is the Holy Spirit. Yeah. So \
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it's a tough language problem, isn't it, Bob? I mean, the metaphor that I use in my work. If I used to think about, you know, our, our work in, in helping people access economic progress, helping people access wellbeing and, and understand that everyone can afford to thrive.\
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I used to think about it as there are, there are so many different components to this work, right? Public policy needs to change if we're really going to access thriving for everybody. The way that we work and employers need to change their views, education needs to change right now, you know, to get a master's in, in business administration in the United States, you're primarily taught.\
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How to maximize profits. And as long as that's what we're learning as the method of, uh, the primary method of being a business leader, that's how business leaders are going to think they're going to think in terms of dollars that are thinking in terms of social capital or environmental capital or human capital, um, and, and those things need to change.\
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And here I'll, I'll recommend my second book written by a Christian, although it's not explicitly Christian, it's called completing capitalism. \
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Excellent book. Excellent book. \
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Indeed. There's lots of things I need to change, and I used to think about those things, and this is the common metaphor as slices of a pie, right?\
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And my slice of the pie was giving people access to economic progress and wellbeing. What I realized is that it's, it's not a pie, it's a soup. And if any one of the ingredients is bad, the whole thing is spoiled. So you can't each have your own slice and deal with your own slice. You have to think of the thing in whole And attack the problems from all sides.\
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Otherwise while you solve one problem Another problem over here might actually prevent that station from making progress that it could or should and I I think about My life in much the same way if I if I just try to step up my faith, but I don't you know Try to step up my role as a father or a husband Or a sunday school teacher or an athlete Um, then none of it's going to work.\
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Jervis, I'm interested this, this great analogy you're giving of soup versus a pie. How does this help you interact, deal with the whole problem of dualism, kind of the sacred secular? I don't need faith here, but I need faith here. How does that, how does this analogy in your description, how does it help you to overcome this insidious problem of dualism?\
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I view that as the top one, uh, dualism is something that I, I think we all struggle with every day. Um, you know, when Jesus was in his darkest hour, his prayer was not my will, but thine be done. And I think about that almost daily. I, I, I see our job as Christians primarily, and this is my view of the New Testament, Primarily what Jesus was teaching us was his two great commandments, his two, his two commandments, uh, were to love God and to love each other.\
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I'm obviously distilling those down. Loving ourselves was not listed in that. Now, I believe that Christian self care is fundamentally the elimination of self will. Because self will leads to frustration. And I believe that frustration is the devil's primary tool for distracting us. from our Christian power, our peace, and our joy.\
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And, um, when we release our own will and surrender to God's will, we can let go of dualism. We can let go of, uh, and even in a secular context. So a lot of the work that I can do, as you can imagine, It's not explicitly Christian and I say not explicitly Christian because I do think it's important to point out that everything I do is Christian and then that if you are a Christian and here I'm going to recommend the third and maybe the last one, but the ruthless elimination of hurry is a great book.\
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And one of the best lines from the book is, you know, as a Christian, it's not our duty to try to live more like Christ. It's to live our life as if Christ was us. So if Christ was helping people solve their financial well being issues, how would he conduct himself? And I think that that's a much more interesting question than, um, you know, the famous, uh, bracelet what Jesus do question.\
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Because Jesus wouldn't do what I'm doing at all. But what would he do if he were me, with my gifts, and my calling, and my purpose? It's a very interesting question. \
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Jervis, thank you. This is, um, it's a delight to hear you explain all this. I always knew you were a thoughtful person, but I'm recognizing even more.\
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Jervis, just a few moments ago, you talked about the leadership circle. That's where you and I initially met. I mean, it's the flagship offering of Cities Project Global. It's a, it's a nine toppy world view journey into faith, vocation, and culture. But Jervis, my first question is, what led you to participate in the Leadership Circle?\
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That's an easy one. A dear friend, Ted Calkins, uh, said it was something I should do, and I met you, and um, it felt like the next correct step in my journey. Uh, it was very intuitively easy to accept as the right activity for me. \
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I remember that meeting in your office, we sat across the table, we talked, I showed you a short video and your response was immediate, which was, was a great encouragement.\
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Jervis, what, how has the leadership circle helped you? How has it helped you with what you're doing now and your journey these last few years? How's it helped you live out. How has it helped you to see that, you know, Christ living through you at your work? \
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Yeah, my hesitation is that it helped me in so many ways.\
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I think perhaps biggest and most important help that has given is structure to the way that I'm able to communicate with other Christians and with non Christians on how to bribe a Christian agenda. And when I say a Christian agenda, uh, you know, this isn't some, uh, church conspiracy. It's simply to bring more common and saving grace to the world.\
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And \
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so, um, The leadership circle really gave language and structure and thoughtfulness to everything that I've described. We couldn't be having this conversation at all without the, the spirit was always there in me, but without the, the, the language. Uh, of, uh, the leadership circle, um, you know, the, the progression through the Bible, the understanding of storytelling, the ought is, can, will framework very much, uh, is woven into the way that I think now.\
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How has it been beneficial in how you run your company? And how your company's added flourishing to others and I, and I don't, I know it's leading us eventually into your participation in the Colorado Clapham circle, but, um, how has it helped your company? \
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Well, I'm going to give some specifics here because I think that's helpful.\
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Um, you know, the, the, it's not, it's not just, well, let me take a step back. I, I think one of the things I learned, uh, when I was at that Fortune 50 firm is that one of the most essential pathways to progress for any Christian, I think for any human candidly, is collaboration. There's none of us that can do it on our own.\
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And sitting down and praying with those other Christian leaders weekly is what really started to change the course of my life. My life as much as anything, you know, in a practical way, my heart was moving, but I really had no concept of how to actualize that that that movement in my heart that that that contrition that that that God had brought to me I didn't know how to actualize and The leadership circle gave me another community Along with that language framework of people that were committed to again, uh, each with their own gifts with their own in their own way and their own purpose, but we're committed to, uh, growing grace and not just, uh, for the world, but also within themselves.\
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And when you can collaborate with other people on that mission. You, you find wonderful outcomes. Uh, and here's one of the specifics. Uh, so is it, it was a, it is that network and one person in that network specifically that led our company to receive its initial funding. And, uh, unlike most companies and actually he, when I joined leadership circle, uh, we were on the cusp of receiving some funding from the state of Colorado, which a lot of people would sort of think as the like, Holy grail of funding because public funding often comes, uh, without equity.\
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And, and in this case, it didn't the, the idea of this program that we were, you were connected to with the state of Colorado is that they were going to help us find the venture capital that was going to help us launch our company. Well, it was a very frustrating experience and it didn't actually end up helping.\
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But this other christian connected me to another christian who immediately saw the potential in our work and uh, Her organization made a philanthropic grant to get us started So we actually didn't end up giving any equity away as opposed to having a venture capital firm Steering the ship which I think would be very dangerous for our endeavor In keeping it as pure as we've been able to keep it.\
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And and so that's just one direct way to Uh, but it's also led to connections with many of our best clients. Our, our two best and most consistent clients are Christian nonprofit organizations, one of which is explicitly Christian, one of which is not. Uh, but they are both Christian and founded and run by Christians.\
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And many of the business leaders with whom we connected are also Christian. So it's, it's, it's very much been essential to the network that has helped our Our endeavors right \
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service. I've heard you talk up about this before that, um, you know, working with other people and it's, it's led you to work with people.\
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Maybe that, you know, And, you know, in the past you wouldn't have ever thought to work with, and now you do. Um, Jervis, what is that, um, well, the idea of working with people who care about the same thing you care about. So Jervis, tell us about, um, how you have become a part of the Colorado Collapum Circle, why you did, and how you are, and what your company's doing with that collaboration of people.\
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It's a long story, Hugh, and it's, um, as you know, and it's a continuing, evolving story. One of the most important lessons from the leadership circle is the lesson of the Clapham Circle and how we make world changing progress as Christians. And one of the essential lessons there is in collaboration. And we read the book or we saw excerpts from the movie Amazing Grace and read excerpts from the book.\
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And the story is a really beautiful story of how people with different gifts operating in different spheres come together to combat a very specific evil, which in this case was the slave trade in Great Britain. And they're successful, but it takes them four decades to achieve the success. And, um, it's a beautiful, uh, and inspiring story.\
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And, um, you know, after my experience in the leadership circle, knew that I wanted to be part of something like that, but had to find the people that were interested in solving the same problem and, uh, was lucky enough to connect with Scott fast at a meeting at the Panera over there on Ulster. And during the pandemic, I believe, uh, in fact, I'm certain.\
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And. You know, we, uh, along with a few other folks, uh, started this platform circle with the mission to make. Economic self sufficiency available to everyone in Colorado. And if you know anything about the challenges of emerging from poverty in the United States, you recognize that as, uh, at least as heavy of a lift as the abolishment of slavery, um, in Great Britain.\
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We're hopeful that we can see, you know, significant progress in our lifetimes, but, uh, We also know that now this is just again submitting to God's will and working together and actually we have a meeting. Scott and I are meeting with, uh, A group in the state of Oklahoma that's interested in our work today.\
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So the word is word spreading. \
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Yes. Uh, I remember that meeting at that Panera. I came with a, oh, I'm the one that set it up and I came with my agenda and God had a different agenda. And that's where you and Scott discovered that you carried about the same thing. It was, um, it was really a a god thing. How, how, what role are you playing right now?\
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What role is Prosper Bridge playing in the, um, unfolding of the Call to Clapham Circle? \
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Prosper Bridge at its core is a resource connection system. And it achieves, uh, connecting people with the right resources that are, that are gonna give them access to progress as they define it. So we're talking common grace here, but it does that through human centered interaction.\
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So when we started the company, we were hopeful that we were going to be able to build technology that gave, that connected people with these essential resources that would empower progress. And those resources include government assistance, nonprofit resources, and private solutions. It's really what can, what, what can we bring into someone's life?\
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To give them access to well being and give them, you know, the necessary resources to achieve that it could be Benefits at work. It could be uh, like I said, it could be government assistance. What what is the resource? Well, so we thought we were just going to be able to build this resource uh database And have people walk through it and connect themselves to these resources.\
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And you realize very quickly that the element of human connection and trust and relationship was essential to activating the potential of this resource list. Um, and you can't see it because it's blurred, but I've got a sign right there. It says people with a line and underneath it, it says everything.\
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People over everything. And that's really the fundamental, you know, a spirit of ProsperBridge is connecting people. Through people connecting people to the resources that they need that are that are going to help bring them progress and that could be for someone who maybe You know feel trapped in poverty which our system in this country is very efficient in trapping people in poverty It could be someone who is You know, achieved a living wage salary, but it's struggling to make ends meet.\
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And it could be, uh, you know, an executive, uh, that has just worshiped at the altar of money and has found themselves because of that has found themselves. Uh, trapped in scarcity cycles despite their high income. So it's really about how do we unlock thriving for people and help, help them see and access the resources that, that can help them do that.\
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Jervis, I appreciate how you explain this for someone who's not a business person like me. Your explanation is even, I can even understand what you're saying. So thank you for that. Jervis, a couple of times you mentioned common grace. Could you explain that and maybe explain? I'm going to explain it by telling a story or two, but what do you mean by common grace?\
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Well I'm going to use, you probably could have guessed, I'm going to use the Bible story to illustrate what common grace is, and I'm loosely quoting the Bible. Common grace is the loaves and the fishes, Hugh. That's the simplest answer to that question. Common grace is relieving the, uh, the pain and toil that seems to come with human experience that we seem to have, uh, found ourselves to in the garden of Eden.\
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A long time ago. Well, Christ undid that and he showed up to prove that he, that he was undoing that and the miracle of the loaves and the fishes and, and in case someone's not familiar with, this is a very famous Bible story where there are a thousand beside women and children following Christ and he has compassion on them.\
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This is, I think, a very important component of the story that is sometimes left out. He has compassion on them. He's a, he's fine. This is someone who can fast for 40 days. So he's fine, but he recognizes that they're hungry, that they want to keep following him because they, I'm sure because his words are burning in their hearts, but they're hungry.\
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And instead of telling them to fast and be more spiritual or go to church or whatever, he says, no, we're, we're going to feed him now to the disciples who say, well, uh, all we have is a few loaves of fish here. And he says, that'll be fine. And, uh, um, you know, they, uh, they break the bread, and they share the fishes, and they feed these thousands of people, and they have more left over than they had when they started.\
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That's common grace. It's God's love. And by the way, I was teaching Sunday school this past week, and I looked up the word grace in, in, uh, Strong's recordings. And it means The the influence of God on our hearts and its reflection in our lives What a beautiful word. Yes And so this was a moment of the compassion that influence of God in Christ's heart and that it's reflection in life literally in the form of bread and fish and that's common grace common grace is the relieving of human suffering and Christ would later say Uh, about why so many people were following him, that it wasn't because of the healing miracles he did, it was because of the loaves and fishes.\
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He recognized that that relieving of the stress of supply, of wealth, of the fundamental needs of human existence, if you want to think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Was the was an essential ingredient to getting to getting people to move into faith \
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and Jewish just to follow up one or two more times Um, who are we to show common grace to \
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everyone everyone?\
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I'll story again Not not as fully because I know we're running out of time, but Uh, in my devotional this week, it, it includes Jesus sitting at the well when the woman of Samaria comes along and, um, you know, he asked her to give him a drink. He's got nothing to draw with. And she says, why are you asking me to give you a drink?\
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I'm a Samarian and you're a Jew and we don't, we don't, we don't associate. And his response is, um, if you knew who I was, you'd have asked me for a drink. But what he's really saying is, um, this is for everybody. Uh, and that story is driven home in another story with the Samaritan that, that crumbs from, the dogs eat the crumbs from Master's table.\
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So Common Grace is for everyone view and, um, yeah, I'll, I'll leave it there. I think that's, that's explanation enough. \
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And I know you have some more stories, but we're going to move on, but personal stories of extending common grace, and I've even heard you say you love doing it. And again, that's got to be prompted by God, that He's caused you to just love extending common grace to anybody and everybody.\
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But how does this now relate to the Call to Clapham Circle? Your, your company, you and your company's participation in this Colorado Clapham Circle, how does this idea of common grace relate? And I almost tend to say, if someone asked you, what's the vision of the Colorado Clapham Circle, what would you say?\
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The vision of the Colorado Clapham Circle is, is easy to articulate. It's that every Coloradan has a pathway to self sufficiency, and we're primarily focusing on folks emerging from poverty in that statement, but the truth is that it can be a challenge for anyone. Uh, regardless of their income level. But our, our, our primary focus is on helping people on the journey from poverty itself.\
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The Clapham Circle helps in lots of ways, and I'm going to go back to how the Leadership Circle helped the Clapham Circle build this. It, it, you know, we're building a group of allies that are solving various aspects of the problem. And this goes back to the pie and soup analogy. There are some amazing Christian organizations out there.\
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I'm talking about non profits here primarily, churches as well, that are doing some amazing common race work, okay? You can think of a soup kitchen, or halfway houses, or you can think of, um, you know, transportation assistance. There's lots of different components. Uh, helping someone emerge from poverty. And this goes back to the, the, the integrated, uh, you know, conversation as well, what we realized very quickly, what Scott and I realized very quickly is that solving these problems on an individual basis brings temporary relief, but if you're not ready to solve the next problem.\
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All the work that you did to solve that first problem ends up coming undone and, um, the Clapham Circle's intent is to provide a comprehensive support system so that whatever challenge arises on this journey, and there are all, and the challenges are different for everyone. I mean, many of them are, are, uh, you know, Foreseeable and, and, uh, common, but each person's journey to self sufficiency is going to encounter different challenges.\
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And if you're not ready with the right resource, when those challenges arise and all the work you did prior, it's very likely to be lost. And the Clapham circle is, um, organized as a, as a comprehensive support system so that, you know, what, where, wherever, you know, Whenever that that moment of need arises, that's the right resource.\
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Is there to meet that? \
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Services, um, again, you're explaining this so well a question then Um, i'm not asking necessarily what are obstacles that these people you're trying to help have to overcome But more what obstacles are you encountering and getting people to collaborate together in order to provide this List of or this opportunities or resources so that people don't fall through the cracks.\
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You're smiling. You're smiling \
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I love the question because there's another a Uh, part of the, of the, of the leadership circle that I wanted to talk about at the end of the video. Please. Two more really impactful modules for me were the Unlikely Allies module, which is the story of a Christian allying with a Christian.\
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Uh, I don't know if he's an atheist, but he's certainly not a Christian, uh, he's a, uh, a, a very liberal, very gay business leader, uh, in order to come together to achieve some success in a common grace endeavor. It's a beautiful video. Um, it leads to a great discussion and then further the discussion of the different spheres and how we must access the highest levels of quote unquote power in order to achieve what we want to achieve.\
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So Hugh, without getting into too much painstaking, you know, technicalities here, I will say that I believe that the biggest impediment to self sufficiency In the United States is are actually are our welfare system. Okay. And so in order to create a and this is why we're meeting with the public group in Oklahoma this afternoon in order to make this journey possible, it will require reform of of laws at the highest level at the national level, as well as at the state level, state and local level.\
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Um, and it, it means that we have to bring together not just our Clapham circle, but we have to, we have to bring in, um, assistance from leaders that are not Christian, uh, that may even be anti Christian. Uh, Colorado is a very, um, liberal state and liberal, uh, uh, politicians tend to be anti Christian, uh, in our country.\
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Uh, it's not universally true, but, um, it, it's, it's often true. Um, And so we're allying with people to try to fix public policy issues, uh, that, that, you know, might, um, might have disdain for the, the work that I do as a Sunday school teacher. And I'm okay with that because we're trying to bring healing to problem that's more important than, you know, a fight over, you know, over faith.\
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Is exclusively christian, uh, but our effort is to bring in everyone that we need to bring in in order to find the success We need to find just that the original clapham circle had to do In order to get slavery abolished. So this is not just a group of people coming and praying It certainly is that and I think it must be that and I think prayer must be the center and the foundation of the work but you know if the it's it's pulling into that being Right.\
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So that, and I, I'm going to go old Testament now because the Lord performeth the thing that is appointed and many such things are with him. God does the work and the platform, the, the leadership circle really helped me understand that I can't afford a sense of self will or a sense of trying to be adequate.\
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We have to access the, these levers and people, otherwise we're never going to achieve. And, and it actually gave me great freedom and courage because. I realize this is, it's God's work, it's not me, and we have to talk with these people, we have to interact with these people, we have to, we have to ally with people that we might find to have a moral code that's unpleasant to us, because that's the pathway to, to, to progress and to common grace, and in that, in that, uh, journey, uh, we just might have an opportunity to show them, uh, You know what what it really means to be christian which is to bring that you know My vision for the leadership circle, which may not be yours bob, but my vision for the leadership circle is that?\
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It's the organization that makes groups of Christians, platform circles you might say, the go to worldwide to solve any problem. And it may be a century before we get there, but I envision a world that says, Oh, there's a problem. We need a platform circle. \
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Yeah. I, I agree. That's very, very well said, Jervis.\
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Very well said. And I, and I appreciate, well, I'm thankful actually that some of these things come out of the leadership circle, uh, and that, uh, it helped you, uh, and Scott and others, uh, in this. Clapham Circle, uh, and the distinction there between the members, if you will, as Christians and praying Christians and understanding, but the joining of that with unlikely allies, uh, in order to get this done.\
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Uh, and then at the same time, uh, some of the things that, that we've, Hugh and I've talked about quite often, um, is when, when you bring in those allies, those unlikely allies, and they begin to see how we access God. And how he provides wisdom in ways that they would never have thought of. You know, suddenly, uh, there's this idea that, Oh my goodness, you know, maybe God, you know, I mean, it's a beginning place for them.\
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Uh, and it's, uh, it's in, it's a very exciting thought because we know as Christians, I mean, we know there's a God, we know who he is and we know that Uh, that when he shows up, uh, the light shows up. And, uh, if you're working together with people, it's like they, they can't miss it. You know, I mean, you know, a part of that unlikely ally story, um, where, uh, Jim and, uh, the other fellow were, uh, Ted.\
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Yeah. So, you know, Jim has a heart or Ted has a heart attack. Jim prays for him. Uh, and then Ted says, I felt the prayers. I know he loves me. I know, you know, and, and that's, that's over the boundary of different beliefs. You know, so I mean, the love of God is just so powerful and, and you've really said it very well.\
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So thank you very much. Yeah, I agree. \
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Um, Jervis, a couple of last questions. I know we're coming to an end here. Um, you might remember, but I often say in the leadership circle, I say, welcome to the rest of your life. How, um, how long, I mean, you're the vision you have for the Colorado Clapham circle. What, what vision of the future do you have?\
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How long do you see yourself caring about this? \
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Forever. I mean, you know, and I don't mean that, uh, you know, as a glib answer, um, you know, I believe that I have life more abundantly and that I'll have eternal life and that in my place in heaven, I'll still be praying and working on this. Uh, you know, the, the, the demon that we're trying to slay of the work fundamentally.\
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Uh breaking it down of the worship of mammon or of of scarcity is one that has always existed You know since humanity devised trade I don't have any you know misconceptions that this is going to be something that happens quickly or uh, you know fully in my lifetime, so Um, it's a permanent commitment But but again you you know, I think when people hear self sacrifice And I know I used to You think of pain or discomfort that you're accepting for yourself.\
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in order to advance good. And that may be a component of self sacrifice. But to me, what, what I'm really learning is that self sacrifice is just the release of the frustration that comes with self. And when you're just living in God's will, sure, you may be called to, to give up some things that you don't want to give up, but it's not necessarily painful.\
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Uh, it may even be joyful. And so, you know, the view of, uh, that some Christians still hold, I think, That not just self sacrifice, but even intentional, you know, self deprivation is, is necessary to progress in faith. You know, I don't, I don't know. I don't know where I'm at with that. It's, it's one of those evolving things for me because I'm finding so much joy.\
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In self sacrifice finding so much more fulfillment. And again, when you just live in that VA and recognize who you are, you're going to go to Isaiah now. If you will draw out your soul for the hungry and afflicted, and what's your soul? Your soul is your identity in God, and everybody's soul is unique. And, uh, everybody's soul has been imprinted by God.\
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And, um, in jumping to the New Testament, we each have our different gifts, and our, our diversity of gifts. And the whole objective is the unification of the spirit in God. And if you'll draw your soul for the hungry and the afflicted, this is the promise of Isaiah, you'll get all the good things. I'm not even going to go and list all the things that are listed in that chapter, but it's all the good things.\
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And so, you know, drawing out your soul, uh, I've come to, to understand as being a really beautiful, fulfilling, fun thing. And yes, sometimes it means, uh, uncomfortable situations and the giving up of things that you might want, but, uh, it's, it's beautiful. It's really been a, uh, a very satisfying, I think might be the right word, a very satisfying experience.\
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Uh, journey for me. \
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Just um, Jervis, I have, um, two last questions for you. Um, I love the fact that you love to tell stories. You know that we really emphasize that in the leadership circle, both telling as you've been doing so well, Bible stories, but even stories from your own life. There's a story you told me not long ago when you came into that grocery store with your sons and you saw something going on and you, you responded right away.\
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Would you mind telling that? And then the last question Jervis is, how can we pray for you? Yeah. \
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So we were going into our local King Soopers, which if you are living in Colorado, you know exactly what that is. And if you don't, you have no idea what I'm talking about. It's the, the Kroger chain, which is the largest grocery chain in the United States.\
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Uh, it's where most people do their shopping, either at King Soopers or city market statewide. Okay. So this is the grocery store that people go to. And, uh, You know, we've evolved into a self checkout, uh, service system here. And so I'm in the self checkout line with my boys. And, um, one of the self checkout attendants, Jordan, who I have seen many times and many times, and I've learned that he loves to have a chat with, uh, with the customers.\
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Some of them, uh, some of the self checkout servers don't. Uh, but Jordan does. I was looking at his phone and, uh, another customer that was doing self checkout, and I'm sure needed Jordan's assistance for, you know, whatever he, the system had sent that he put something in the bag that he hadn't scanned or whatever, uh, started berating \
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him \
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for being on his phone instead of doing his job.\
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Uh, uh, the demographics don't matter, but this was a, a, a, an older gentleman that was clearly well off. I could see how this was affecting Jordan, and, um, I, and I wanted my boys to, to be aware of what was happening. At the time they were six and eight, they're now seven and nine. And so I went over to Jordan after I finished, and I said, Hey, I really appreciate you.\
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I'm really sorry that that happened. And he said, Yeah, my niece is sick. And I was checking my phone because I might have to go to the hospital today. And he was at the point of tears. And, um, I just said, Well, I, I, I really appreciate you. I'm sorry that happened. And I, I'm, I'm really grateful for you. And, and, uh, I see you here all the time.\
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You're, you're a great worker. And I really, I really appreciate it. Uh, I have no idea what Jordan's, uh, faith. Um, I have no idea what the faith is of the person that's berating him. I have my suspicions that he's a Christian, but I, I just wanted to, uh, you know, take that moment that it wasn't comfortable for me to do that necessarily, but take that moment to step up and, uh, you know, share compassion.\
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Uh, with someone and make sure my boys, uh, saw, saw me doing that and saw the effect that it had on him. It, it, he was, he was obviously deeply grateful. And now we get to chat, uh, every time I go through the subject. \
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There's that, that word compassion comes up again, which you've mentioned a couple of times already in our hour together as we're coming to an end, Jervis, and this has been delightful.\
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Just so good to hear how, um, how the Lord has so easily led you or should say has led you into living out. Um, who you are and how you want to help the people of Colorado. How can we pray for you and for the, your company and for the Colorado Clout and Circle? \
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Oh, such a good question. First that I would not be pulled into dualism, that I would be spiritually minded and that I would submit to God, uh, to maintain that the key to this is the being, it's not the having or the doing, it's the being.\
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And, uh, I am far from perfect at that and would love prayers to, to be more perfect in, in, in my BA, in my resting in God and in that, in that relationship. The second, uh, you know, our company, um, and, and, uh, candidly, even with some of our Christian partners, uh, it's very difficult, it's very difficult work.\
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Um, it's very difficult to make it profitable. It's very difficult to reach people the way we want to reach them. So just that our company, uh, would also just be and not try. Um, that's something else that I think has evolved with me as I've come to see corporations as ideas of God that, um, God needs to steward.\
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And. That might mean so I don't want prayers for the flourishing of our company. I want prayers for the flourishing of the mission of our company, because if our company has to dissolve in order for the mission to flourish, I'm fine with that. So prayers for the mission of our company that everyone might have access to progress.\
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And that's our very, very simple mission. And for the Clapham Circle, it would be the prayer of unity. And humility, I think one of the greatest challenges we face as Christians when when we get into our work and we see its impact and its efficacy we can start to worship that And feel that the thing that we're doing is the most important thing And that if everybody else would just support that thing the world would be a better place and even within the clapham circle, we struggle with this with members that at times feel like Uh, hey, why aren't you just giving me or Uh, will at times ignore other members of the circle and their needs because they feel that the work that they're doing is better or more important.\
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So that we might all, uh, live in meekness, uh, in submission to divine will. Uh, As opposed to, because it's very, you know, here's another trick, you can end up worshipping common grace if you're not careful. When you bring relief to someone, when you deliver the loaves and fishes, it feels amazing. Um, and you've got to be careful not to make that your new god.\
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Uh, and so, prayers that we might all Just be together as Christians because that will always lead to the having to do \
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Service, it's been a delight to have you join us in our second intersection podcast and in front of all of our listeners, but to say to you that Jervis is so committed to what he's learned through the leadership circle along with other things that he is available to help facilitate when it's appropriate when he has time when we have a leadership circle here in Denver and we're grateful Jervis for your willingness to help in that way and we're just delightful that you are living out God's will for your life, for your family, for your company, for the Colorado Clapham Circle.\
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Thank you for taking the time to join us today. \
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No, thank you. \
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It has been, it has certainly been a delight, an absolute delight to, to listen to you and your stories and your articulation of it and the passion you have, uh, for the work that you do and the compassion that you have in the midst of the work that you do.\
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It's exciting. Um, Hugh, shall we, shall we just go right ahead and pray for Jervis right now? \
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Yeah, I think \
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we should. Bob, would you like to pray for him? I'd be happy to. Heavenly Father, we love you and, uh, we know that you are our father. And we, you know, you want us to be with you and that our doings are things that happen that, uh, we can do, uh, to show our worship for you.\
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But it's important to rest in you and to not be pulled into dualism. So we, we pray this for Jervis and his family. Uh, we ask that, uh, the temptation in this culture that we live in. I mean, whenever you live in the culture, you get sucked into things right around you. Sometimes you don't notice. So Father, we pray that, uh, He would resist that temptation and would, would just enjoy being with you, to rest in you, to abide in you.\
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We pray for his company as well. We, we pray for Prosper Bridge and, uh, that we, we do pray that it would go well. Uh, we certainly pray the mission that he is on, uh, would go particularly well. That if, as he said, if it means the demise of his company, so be it. But we pray father that it would not, that he would enjoy it and that others would enjoy him and the Collapalab circle would go well.\
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Uh, and all of that would be to your glory and, uh, this whole idea of, of being with you would be enjoyed and that the non believers that surround all of this would see the joy that comes in walking with you. And we also lift up the Clapham Circle, uh, for unity, for humility. Uh, those are two wonderful goals.\
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So we pray that, uh, all of the leaders of the Clapham Circle would be aiming at that, would be talking about that, would be, uh, praying for that. Uh, I know they pray regularly. And, uh, to, to live, Father, in meekness, to submit to your will. So I think, Father, we pray that for all of us, uh, that as we go out into the workplace, that as we see the 99 percent of the Christians that are active in something other than the religion sphere, that all of us, uh, would get to know who you are and we'd be following you and, uh, be saying to ourselves, uh, Father, your will, not mine.\
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So we ask all of this in the precious name of Jesus. \
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Amen. \
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Amen. Thank you, \
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Jervis. \
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Thank you, Jervis. I have a question for you. um Centric american gentlemen just before we finish the podcast So each one of you and i'm sitting here in the middle east obviously And i'm going to myself. What do you mean?\
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There's poor people in america. The rest of the world does not see this So I I ask you uh What have you got to say to the rest of the world? \
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Poverty in america looks very different than poverty in other parts of the world kevin. So i'm glad you're asking this question um Most people. In america, even those living in poverty do have access to Uh food and shelter many of them don't necessarily uh access those resources daily, but um, but poverty in america Uh, is not just about a lack of resources, especially when you're comparing yourself to folks that have a very nice home, uh, a nice vehicle, all the food they could want, you know, so on and so forth.\
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But it is a cultural trap, and, uh, well over 90 percent of folks that are born into poverty stay in poverty in the United States. So it is a perpetual. So there's a misperception of the United States. I believe that, uh, economic mobility is very accessible and we continue to have immigration here because people want to access that economic mobility.\
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The truth is that for most people that are in poverty, they stay trapped there. And most of those people in this country that are in poverty. Are dealing with severe addiction issues, uh, mental health issues, or some other ailment that is extremely traumatic. So, we're not necessarily, uh, when you compare our poverty to perhaps the poverty in, in many places in Africa, where there's no access to clean water, um, uh, or sanitation of any kind, uh, food is scarce.\
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It's a very different. looking poverty in a different kind of pain, uh, but it's just as deep of pain. Uh, the, the, the folks that, that we're helping have no faith in themselves. Uh, they do not believe that they're worthy of anything and that the best they can do is to subsist off of the assistance That is being given to them, and that's the, that's the demon that we really want to slay.\
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Well put. \
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Yeah, no, I, I agree with every word you've said, um, but when I was listening to, uh, all of your stories and the different things that were going on, the thing that kept coming to me was the audience that's going to be listening to this is going to be going, Ooh, this is a surprise to me. This is a surprise to me.\
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You know, it's maybe not even just poverty in terms of, uh, finance. It's poverty in terms of actual ability to live, families being together, mothers being, I mean, there's an epidemic of no fathers in America. Just the same as large parts of the West. And, you know, so even when we talk about our father and this is a foreign, foreign organization to them or a foreign situation, because they don't know what that means to have a father.\
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And so, yeah, it's, it's very difficult. And the second question, and I'll pose this straight to, uh, Jervis was, what does your company actually do for people? Cause I think people want to pray for that because I didn't get, exactly what your company does for people. \
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Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question, Kevin.\
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And let me quickly follow up the, uh, uh, to give a more, uh, complete understanding of poverty in the United States. So about 11. 1 percent of our citizens, which is about 37 million people are living in poverty. So it's a, it's a huge number. But 58 percent of Americans say they feel like finances control their lives.\
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So you have almost 60 percent of people that feel like money is their primary, uh, stressor and, um, dominates over them. And to me, that's poverty. What our, what our company does is we partner with employers and nonprofits to provide individual, uh, navigation to the resources that will help people Emerge from poverty.\
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So, uh, and I think example would be helpful here. So Kevin, what we do is we meet for 30 minutes every month in a virtual meeting like this one. And we ask folks a series of questions to get an understanding of where they currently are and where they want to go. And then we work with them to, you know, uh, break down the barriers that are preventing their progress by helping them access resources.\
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So let me give a specific example. A very common example here, a primary form of economic enslavement here is credit card debt. Uh, many of the folks that we work with, especially those on government assistance, have compiled some credit card debt. And one of the things that makes poverty particularly acute in the United States is a banking system that really solicits you for debt on a, on a daily, if not more often basis.\
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And so folks that are in poverty see debt as a way to live more comfortably or to feel better about themselves. And they end up oftentimes several thousand dollars in debt. Well, our system has many pathways out of that debt, but most people just assume they have to just keep paying the credit card companies or the banks back until the debt is relieved.\
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And that ends up being a literally lifelong, uh, never ending process where they're perpetually in debt. They might get back to be almost out of debt, but then something happens like an emergency. Uh medical event or an emergency need for a vehicle or at work and they have to go back and access debt again And so they end up in this perpetual spiral, which is of course exactly what the banks want so what prosperidge does is we come in and we connect them with the There are at least five different pathways out of this debt.\
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One is bankruptcy, which is a unique solution In the united states where you can actually if your income is under a certain level, you can just wipe out all your debts You And many people don't know how to navigate that. Uh, we can do debt settlement where we wipe out part of your debts and get your interest rates reduced and get you on a plan to get out of debt quickly.\
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You can do debt management. You can do balance transfers. We can do debt consolidation loans. So there's lots of resources out there and your employer may even provide some directly that you're unaware of or don't know how to use. What happens is these resources are, are, are, are brilliantly innovated.\
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But the people that need them the most are the least literate on how to navigate them. And so they need someone like us to hold their hand through the process to act many times even just to access the, the, the, the resources themselves. If you're not comfortable with or familiar with financial technology, you might not even be able to access these resources on a fundamental level.\
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I think a lot of us assume that going to a website is the very, Uh, easy and comfortable activity, but for many people it's not and so, uh, Prosper Bridge is that link between you and the resource that you need in order to escape whatever, uh, you know, uh, challenge you have been trapped in by our, uh, Primarily by our financial system.\
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That's primarily where we do our work But as I just said, uh, and and this is also it's not unique to the united states But it's it's distinct in the united states One of the most common forms of debt here is medical debt because medical care is not provided for at any level By the united states and so a lot of folks Have to figure out how to navigate that.\
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So our, our, our primary focus, uh, slice of the pie, you know, is financial well being, but we recognize how we have, again, we have to look at it as a soup. And if we can't help people with their health care, with their child care, with their transportation issues, all these other things that, uh, you know, that the work that we're doing on the, on the dollars in your pocket side doesn't end up battery.\
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I hope that, I hope that explains it well. \
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No, it does. It's a, it's, it's a very good answer. We, um, you know, there's poverty, I think in many different ways. I suppose the, the, the question I would pose is how, how does your company, um, openly or maybe not openly, um, put God in the middle of that for these people?\
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Well, right now, all of our employees are Christians and we pray consistently, um, about, You know, being able to do our work more efficiently, but as far as it relates to our customers, some of them are, uh, when we're working with a Christian organization, we know that it's okay to share Christian ideas and we often do with those customers, I would submit that.\
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I think in many ways, Christianity and, and, and not Christ, but Christianity has had his solution backwards. The solution that Christianity has offered is accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior. And we'll show you the light that comes with that but christ himself said i'm going to show you the light Then you can accept me as your lord and savior.\
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That was clearly his equation. And so we're trying to open windows to god by Helping people escape the persistent Mental block that scarcity brings when you're in poverty. It's hard to think about anything else so if If we can open a window to God by, by helping relieve that, you know, you may not walk right to God and we're, we're not going to ask you to, you know, none of our process is asking people except Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior.\
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But hopefully we can at least give you a pathway to, to that light and, uh, uh, give you the opportunity to even think about Whether or not, uh, you know christ might be with you. \
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Yeah Have you heard of an organization in the united kingdom called christians against poverty? \
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I have not \
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It's called cap. It does very much the same sort of thing as uh, you're talking about which is uh, Getting people out of debt.\
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It's something that I supported a lot when I was actually a financial advisor the same as you before 2008 And and then I left it at a similar time. So it was like listening to my own story initially And I was in a lot, a lot of debt myself, uh, and personally, and it took me, um, four to five years and I'm completely financially literate to, to get out of that situation and feel, feel in inverted commas free.\
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Um, but the problem, I think that most people live in, um, in the West, whether it be America or other places. And it is most, it's the majority, they are living paycheck to paycheck. They don't have any money behind them and they're living paycheck to paycheck. So when a problem occurs, it becomes a huge problem.\
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Not a, it becomes a stop everything problem. I maybe even fax their income so they can't then do their job. Whether it be a car, whether it be somebody's ill. And, and I accept in America, you have a system for health care, which is tragic, to be honest. I can't, I can't put any word around it because it can destroy you, uh, at this, at exactly the time when you need the most support, when, when you're actually ill.\
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So yeah, it's fascinating, Joe's, and I'm sure we could talk for hours and hours and maybe we will another time. Um, but I think you guys, we should maybe finish with a prayer from, uh, Jervis, if we're not putting them too much on the spot, about praying for those people that you're serving in your business.\
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I would love to do that, Kevin. Thank you. Lord, we ask that you bring relief, not just in the form of dollars and loaves and fishes. We ask that you bring relief to the trauma that often accompanies the pain of scarcity and poverty. We ask that you help each of your children to see that they are the light, that we, as your children, live through you and with you, that they might find the satisfaction of being that can only be found when we release the sense of frustration around all carnal things.\
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And we ask that you help us to do this work. What we ask that you. When, when we're working, that you touch the hearts of everyone with whom we work and everyone who feels trapped in poverty, who feels that they'll never be good enough, that they'll never be, uh, uh, worthy enough of escaping poverty and scarcity, that they might find their way to you, Lord, and to the unspeakable peace that comes with the fulfillment of all your promises in the divine economy.\
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That they might not only one day, not only feel the full acceptance of the promises. That you bestow on them, but that they might also be part of the giving of those promises to the others in need as well Lord, I ask you Jesus. \
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Yes. Amen. We pray for multiplication in your business and that the people who that your help that you help will go away and help others in in a similar way or or certainly guide them into Into your business as well.\
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Thank you sir. Miss name. Hey, thank you. So I think that wraps up our second, uh, podcast. And, um, yeah, if you haven't listened to the first one, go back and listen to it. It was, uh, it was a good chat and, um, yeah, we look forward to speaking to you in the next few weeks when we bring out the next one, God bless you all.}