(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hello, everybody.

I'm here today to talk with a magnificent

woman who is really addressing some of the

significant issues of our time.

Today, we're going to talk about porn addiction

and its effects on marriage and other relationships.

Compulsive masturbation, dopamine dependency, and using technology to

heal the brain.

There really is an answer to this.

So I'm talking with Dr. Trish Lee.

I'll just say that again.

I'm talking with Dr. Trish Lee, and here

are her credentials.

She's a doctor, professor, presenter, educator, coach, and

she's an unabashedly hopeful optimist.

She's considered an innovative, multidisciplined thought leader.

Her credentials are unprecedented and will inspire everybody

that meets with her to heal their brain,

to live their best authentic life.

She's a cognitive neuroscientist, and she helps to

heal, educate and empower people to overcome their

anxiety, attention and Internet addiction issues.

These all drain their brains, and she uses

powerful digital programs, remote neurofeedback and personal coaching

and private individual intensive sessions.

Welcome, Dr. Trish.

It's wonderful.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm excited to dive in.

Great.

So I have invited Dr. Krish.

I will call you Krish.

I've got the credentials, Krish.

Dr. Trish.

Start that again.

I am sorry.

I'm not usually this fluffy.

Yeah, it's okay.

I've invited Dr. Trish because we have a

mutual client who has had porn addiction issues,

and they have achieved amazing results.

And it's affected both their own life and

their anxiety, their inner world, as well as

the quality of their relationship with their spouse.

This is just wonderful work.

Please, Dr. Trish, tell us all about porn

addiction.

Sure.

Yeah, I'm so glad to be here because

my motivation is to help.

It's primarily men right now, but increasingly more

women are using pornography for mood regulation.

We can get there in a minute.

But, you know, ultimately, my mission on helping

men is to help them be able to

have healthy, loving relationships because porn really does

preclude them from being able to do that.

So relationships, whether that be a coupleship or

a partnership or even relationships with parents, with

friends, with children, you know, they're all impacted

negatively by porn use.

So I'm on a mission to help people

heal their brains and then get back to,

you know, the loving relationships that people want

and they deserve.

Can you tell me a little about how

all of those different qualities of relationship are

affected by porn use?

Yeah, sure.

Starting with a primary relationship, research shows that

there is significant damage to a primary relationship,

you know, a coupleship, a marriage, boyfriend, girlfriend,

a committed relationship, whatever, you know, we want

to call that.

But anyways, what happens is relationship dissatisfaction increases

because of porn use, and it's very complex.

It's not simple, the reason that this happens,

but to put it as simply as possible,

what happens is a person's brain, when they

consume pornography, gets linked to very high levels

of dopamine when they're consuming porn, usually which

is coupled with compulsive masturbation.

So basically their brain gets flowing a lot

of dopamine.

It's called a supernormal stimulus.

It can't be found anywhere in a healthy

way in the world.

So that unreality of porn becomes the most

pleasurable thing to the person, which leads towards

addiction.

They want more and more of that good

feeling.

So then what happens is now it's time

to get back into your relationship, and especially

your sexual relationship, and your partner could never

possibly compete with the dopamine levels.

So one thing I want people to know

in a relationship, this is a dopamine dependency.

It's not about what the people look like

on the screen.

It's not about what they're doing.

It's about the amount of dopamine that's produced

in a person's brain and nervous system due

to that supernormal stimulus.

But inherently what it does is relationship dissatisfaction

goes up.

A person's own self-esteem and especially their

sexual self-esteem tanks.

The way that they view their partner decreases,

so they find their partner less attractive.

I mean, that alone is so damaging to

relationships.

But then on top of that, we layer

intimacy, dysfunction, difficulty connecting at an intimate level

because it becomes about physical pleasure, not about

emotional intimacy.

And honestly, if we're going to go really

down to the core, what we know is

that there's neurological dysregulation when porn use is

in the mix.

So a person's brain changes.

It becomes more dysfunctional, which leads them to

difficulty with emotional regulation, dealing with emotions, especially

negative ones, which means they need to continue

to go back to porn, seemingly to feel

good, but honestly to not feel bad.

Right.

So it's like any other addiction.

So it's used to regulate feelings.

But I want you, if you would, because

I'm not sure that everybody knows what dopamine

does and what it's about, what its usual

function is.

Sure.

So dopamine, they call it the molecule of

motivation, more and pleasure.

So dopamine at healthy levels from healthy sources

in a person's life is very important.

So if porn wasn't in the mix, a

person would be driven, motivated into their world

to find pleasure from their work, their hobbies

and their relationships.

Those are the three categories that I kind

of lump that into.

So if you enjoy playing basketball, you go

play basketball with your friends and you get

dopamine from it.

If you love your partner and you like

having date nights and you watch a movie

and you're laughing, you're getting dopamine from movie

date night with your partner.

If you love your work, I love my

work.

So when I sit down to work, I

can feel my brain light up with flow

state.

You know, the perfect amount of dopamine, not

too much where I just want to work

all the time, but enough that I'm I'm

getting satisfaction from my life.

So that becomes really distorted.

And there's thousands of studies when it comes

to addiction that the reward center in the

midbrain and the dopamine pathways that feed to

the frontal lobe, they start functioning differently.

They no longer feel good from those sources

in the world because they've been hijacked by

this very high level stimulus.

And so when it comes to addiction, that

person's pulled back to the place where they've

gotten those very, very high levels of dopamine.

And just one more thing is that it's

called the happiness trifecta, where it's the perfect

combination of dopamine for pleasure, serotonin, another neurotransmitter

for joy and happiness and oxytocin for connection.

So what I want people to do is

leave these dopamine addictive, compulsive behaviors that are

really damaging their brain and get back to

wanting to get that happiness trifecta from their

life.

Yes, I can see that it makes everything

else feel so dilute.

Actually, it makes it feel bad.

I call it a 4D dopamine cycle.

So when a person has an urge to

watch porn, they get a dopamine drip in

their brain.

This is proven by science.

Basically, the thought of porn will get the

dopamine flowing just a little dripping.

But then a person has three seconds to

pivot out of that drip, or it leads

towards what I call the dopamine deluge, the

flood of dopamine.

So even before they watch porn, just when

they've decided they're going to, dopamine gets flowing

even more towards a flood.

Then when they're consuming porn and masturbating, that's

a dopamine drowning.

That drowns out the brain.

It numbs a person.

It makes them feel good in the moment.

But ultimately, it leads to the 4D, which

is a dopamine deficit in their life.

After consuming porn, it's not like they're just

going back to their regular homeostasis.

It's now a new homeostasis of a dopamine

deficit and increased cortisol, the hormone for stress.

So now you go back into your life,

and things are worse.

You have more anxiety, anger, irritability.

You might have depression.

You find everybody annoying.

It's because you're in a dopamine deficit state,

and you will stay there until you get

dripping again.

Gosh, it sounds brutal and bleak.

It becomes brutal and bleak for people, which

I call that the change point.

I have a name for everything here to

try to help people understand.

The change point is after cycling so many

times, it really does become more pain than

pleasure.

People can feel that they are addicted.

I don't really love that term, to be

honest, because I think a lot of people,

especially when it comes to porn, the idea

of porn addiction doesn't resonate with people.

They think they have a habit, and they

can break it until they try.

But the idea is that people feel wrapped

up in it.

They feel compelled to start disengaging from their

life because of that dopamine deficit state.

They just keep trying to get back to

porn.

When this disengagement starts to happen, their partners

know.

They're like, why is he checked out all

the time?

Why is Christmas so difficult for him?

It's because Christmas would be pleasurable without that

cycle, but it's actually a deficit state.

Even on holidays and special occasions, they're driven

back to get dopamine to offset those negative

feelings.

It really can become brutal for people.

But it's interesting for a lot of people.

They can't see that coming until their brain

tips over that threshold.

You've explained it so beautifully, and this is

just not in general knowledge.

It's not in the mainstream.

Nope.

I accidentally started a YouTube channel.

I made one video years back because I

learned all of this because someone I care

about, I realized, was addicted to porn, and

I doubled down on getting more credentials to

be able to help.

I made one video.

It's like 2 minutes and 16 seconds long.

It says nothing besides, porn damages your brain.

Don't watch porn.

It's causing all the anguish in your life,

basically.

I made it on a different YouTube channel.

I've always had a brain YouTube channel.

Six months later, I got a notification.

Your video's been viewed millions of times.

I'm like, what video is this?

And I look, and I'm like, it's that

heartfelt message on, don't watch porn.

It's damaging.

And the people who showed up with the

comments on that video, they're like, please make

more of this.

Please help us.

And that was the beginning of consistent content

because I'm like, nobody really knows this, and

the people who heard me want help.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's great.

And I'm hoping you're going to give me

all the links to all of these sites

so people can find you.

Yes, of course.

So we've gone through.

I want you just to say a little

bit more about compulsive masturbation, if you will.

Sure.

So compulsive masturbation, typically it's paired with porn

use.

So people don't recognize it as an issue

also.

But just to frame it for you is

that I talked about how when you go

into porn, into the screen, there's high levels

of dopamine from high levels of mental stimulation.

So now you couple that with masturbation, which

for most men is high levels of physical

stimulation.

Now you kind of have a twofer in

terms of mental and physical stimulation at higher

levels than a person would have in an

intimate, connected sexual relationship with their partner.

So that is part of the core reason

why masturbation becomes compulsive also.

But this is what most people resonate with.

So when men try people will say, but

men mostly decide they're going to give up

on pornography, they double down on not watching

porn.

But it is very difficult for them to

stop masturbating.

Most people will tell me porn actually wasn't

that difficult, but I cannot stop masturbating.

So that habit just gets paired with pornography.

And to me, the devastating piece is that

the images can be internalized.

So euphoric recall and fantasy can become almost

as powerful as consuming visually and verbally after

consistent, frequent, and especially intense use.

So now people have a lot of difficulty

giving up masturbation because it's coupled with this

fantasy or this euphoric recall.

So basically it's internalized and that becomes a

big challenge.

So when I work with people, I tell

them you have to give up masturbation if

you're going to succeed in the early days

of this journey.

There might be a place for it for

some people later on, but it is a

slippery slope.

But that can be a real challenge for

people.

Yes, indeed.

Of course.

I can really see why from everything that

you're saying.

That's a huge challenge.

It's a very big challenge.

And then it becomes even more difficult, I

think, when relationships come into play because relationships

get so impacted and they become very dysfunctional,

which could take us hours to break down,

but we can break down it a little.

But it becomes dysfunctional because, you know, you

do have addiction on one hand.

And unfortunately, addiction leads to defense mechanisms, which

usually involve manipulation, lying, justification, rationalization.

So this can really make a partner feel

like they're overbearing because they're always told their

reality isn't true.

That happens a lot.

So then partners are like, you know, their

intuition is that something's going on.

And then that's being disproven over and over

when they try to talk to their partner.

I feel for everybody.

I believe that, you know, it's really not

anybody's fault.

And I'm sure some people might be mad

at me when they hear that because addiction

is, you know, it's maddening for everybody.

But it really does create these toxic dynamics

between partners in a coupleship.

So then what happens to the partner is

it's called betrayal trauma.

And when a partner suffers from and struggles

with betrayal trauma, you know, it really takes

an impact on their nervous system and their

brain and then their ability to show up

in the relationship.

You know, we need secure attachment.

So we want to know we can trust

our partner.

We want to be able to feel safe

in our partnerships.

That is something that's at the core of

marriages and relationships.

That breaks down because of all of these

defense mechanisms being used.

And then, of course, if it was like,

you know, alcohol or heroin or even cocaine,

something like that, or gambling, which is another

behavioral addiction, that's easier on the partner to

wrap their mind around.

But when it involves sexuality, that hits home

so much more personally, even though the underlying

mechanisms are the same as those substance abuse

issues and other behavioral addictions.

But it just tears the relationship apart.

But there is a bridge back.

There is a bridge back.

Oh, good.

Tell us about that.

That's really important.

Yeah, it is.

So the bridge back, it actually doesn't have

to be a long one, but it can

be a challenging one for couples because they

really do need to get on the same

page.

So when I speak with women, I really

want them to understand this is an addiction.

And a lot of times, you know, I

don't want to take the power of choice

away from a man who's addicted to porn

because, you know, their partner sees they're choosing

to do this.

And, you know, at some point there was

choice.

But when it becomes a compulsion and an

addiction, choice doesn't always enter into the scenario.

So, you know, it is a compulsion, a

need, a need to go back.

So, you know, I want women to know

there is an underlying neurological need.

And we can talk about that in a

minute.

But they're driven back to it.

It's a compulsion, just like gambling.

It's a desperation.

It is.

And there's no emotionally healthy person who wants

to do this to their partner.

But when addiction's in the mix, we already

covered, they're not emotionally healthy.

There's emotional dysregulation at the core of addiction.

So, you know, where that breaks down.

So, anyways, the bridge back is, you know,

if a partner can see this as an

addiction and enter into the recovery process as

a support for their partner who is addicted,

but also thinking about their side of the

street.

So I want partners to stay on their

side of the street at the beginning of

a recovery journey.

You know, the addicted partner has to double

down on breaking the addiction.

I can talk about the steps with that

in a minute.

The partner has to increase her emotional intelligence

and maturity to be able to stay in

a difficult journey of recovery and to learn

how to set boundaries.

Boundaries are everybody's friend in a recovery journey.

So the idea is where a partner would

say, you know, I'm going to stay in

this relationship and support you, but I'm going

to do it for 90 days.

Or I'm going to do it through a

planned separation or I'm going to do it

for six months.

Whatever is determined, because then, first of all,

the person with the addiction knows I've got

this amount of time to get going on

my recovery.

So I cannot sit around and, you know,

I've got to get busy finding the proper

help.

And then the partner also knows that she

can feel safe knowing it might be, you

know, maddening for that amount of time.

But there should be a way she can

see that her partner is moving forward and

she's becoming stronger in her own self.

So many times, there's so many layers, sorry

to keep going, but so many times codependency

is within the relationship.

And codependency is that the impacted partner really

feels like they have to, like, carry the

emotional burden of the person with the addiction.

And there might be enmeshment where there's blurred

boundaries of the self.

So when the partner goes, OK, I'm going

to figure out who I actually am and

I'm going to put these really strong boundaries

around myself, they can start to feel like

Wonder Woman.

But when they do, that actually allows them

to become interdependent in the relationship, which those

are the healthy dynamics.

So like when the partner cleans up her

side of the street and the person with

the addiction does, then it's time to get

to the beginning of the bridge to heal

the relationship.

Beautifully put.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So tell us about the way that you

work with people that actually makes the difference.

How do you set people off on the

challenge to stop masturbating, stop using porn, heal

their relationship by some very honest discussions, some

separate healthy boundaries, renewed autonomy and renewed self

-responsibility.

I hear all that.

What comes next?

Well, what comes first is neurological regulation, because

none of that is possible if your brain

is stuck in an addicted mode or a

betrayed mode.

It's very difficult.

So the first and foremost, and I feel

like the role that I play in the

grand scheme of of relation healing relationships and

addiction recovery is to be able to provide

that neurological piece for people.

So the idea is we know at the

core of all of this is a dysregulated

brain pattern.

I use technology, which is called neurofeedback, to

be able to adjust a person's brain performance

pattern from where it is as close to

or hopefully at the optimal performance pattern.

And the way that I do that is

the first step is something called a QEEG

brain map.

It uses EEG electroencephalogram, so I'm able to

see how a person's brain is performing.

I'm able to see which areas are dysregulated

or have dysfunction and what that dysfunction looks

like.

It has a pretty consistent pattern for people

who are addicted.

It has a very consistent pattern for people

who feel betrayed.

So then the idea is we know where

our starting point is, and then we use

technology that shifts their brain back and they

don't have to do anything.

They don't have to think about it.

They don't have to talk to anybody.

That's the unique piece is that it's passive.

It does all the work.

It does it through something called operant conditioning.

So operant conditioning, most people know about Pavlov's

dog.

He rang a bell and taught his dogs

to drool in the presence of food.

And even when he took the food away,

operant conditioning takes that a step further, where

with a consistent reinforcement pattern of the healthy

brain pattern and not reinforcing the unhealthy pattern,

the unhealthy pattern unwires and the optimal pattern

begins to rewire in and then eventually hardwire

itself in.

So to me, that's fundamental because we know

from, like I've already said, thousands of studies

at the core of addiction and betrayal are

dysregulated brain patterns.

So I help people shift their brains back

and then they're able to show up and

have healthier communication.

They're able to discuss difficult emotions.

They're able to self-regulate.

So a person with an addiction can self

-regulate better and be able to quit more

easily.

So it's imperative that people train their brains.

And that's the first step.

But my approach is a neuro, bio, psychosocial.

And I think the missing piece is neuro.

So I help people regulate their brains, which

then helps them to have more self-regulation

in their body, more emotional regulation in their

mind, and then helps them to show up

in their relationships with the proper techniques.

Yes, yes.

I mean, it's not just a random thing.

No, I get that.

And what I really love is it's not

taking years and years of therapy.

I mean, I know it's a how long

is a piece of string, but how long

do you think this will take?

Yeah.

And actually, I know I know some people

don't love this about the way I talk

about this.

It makes them a little frustrated.

The people who get frustrated are the coaches,

the therapists, or or people who have been

in a recovery journey for a really long

time and they're not succeeding.

So to me, like, you know, we set

the bar recovery at 90 days.

But is it 90 days for every person?

No.

But I contend 90 days later, you should

know you're well on your way, because if

you've been in recovery for one year, three

years, five years, decades, which some people are,

you haven't addressed the underlying neurological dysregulation, usually.

And then what the way that I talk

about it is there's pieces to this puzzle.

It's very complex.

Like I've already told you, I've only shared

a few of the pieces.

The puzzle is very complex, but there's actual

pieces that systematically and consistently apply to people,

to all people.

These pieces have to be put into the

puzzle.

And so some pieces are easier or more

difficult for any individual.

But if you're putting the puzzle pieces in,

you know you are and then you're building

momentum.

And the way that neurological regulation works is

you're either in an upward spiral or a

downward spiral.

Well, another cheesy saying of mine is there's

no horizontal spiral.

But from a neuroscience perspective, it's either you're

in a positive feedback loop.

So your brain's getting healthier.

You're dealing with your emotions better.

You're self-regulating more.

You're talking to your partner.

Positive feedback loop, which will create a flywheel

of consistent forward positive change.

So if you get that flywheel going, you

know it, you feel it on the inside.

You know, my clients tell me all the

time, I don't know how to describe it,

but I know I'm on a roll.

That's the positive feedback loop.

The downward spiral is you stay in a

place of struggle and suffering.

You're trying, but you're, quote unquote, failing.

I don't love that word either.

I think if you have a slip or

relapse, you have to learn from it.

If you learn from it, you're always moving

forward.

And early slips and relapses, you know, are,

I believe they don't have to happen.

But if they do, I get why they

do.

And you learn.

But if late relapses are happening, you haven't

figured out your puzzle.

And it's time to, you know, have somebody

teach you what all the pieces are.

Right.

This is wonderful.

This is wonderful.

And I have experience of your considerable success.

It's been wonderful to witness in our mutual

clients.

So thank you so much.

Yeah, I'm so glad to hear that.

I know, I want couples to know, I

want couples to know, like, if you feel

like there's literally no hope, there is hope.

And I am an unabashed optimist, but I'm

a pragmatic optimist.

You cannot sit around and hope that your

relationship's going to heal.

You have to figure out how to heal

it.

And it starts with you, and then it

starts with the way you interact with your

partner.

So, you know, there's pragmatic hope, but you

have to take the steps that, you know,

we know work.

This is brilliant stuff.

Tell me where people can find you.

Give me all of your links.

What's the best place?

Sure.

So my website is drtrishlee.com.

That's easy enough.

It's L-E-I-G-H.

I do have a YouTube channel called Dr

Trish Lee.

There's over a thousand videos on porn addiction

recovery.

There's also videos on erectile dysfunction or sexual

arousal dysfunction, because that's the number one pain

point for people who consume porn.

They end up struggling with sexual arousal dysfunction

because of that dopamine dependency.

So there's over a thousand videos there, and

they all have a brain hack strategy at

the end.

So I get emails every day thanking me

for helping people because I've helped them recover

without ever meeting them, which is such a

beautiful gift to me because I am on

a mission.

So you can go to that YouTube channel

if you're looking for, you know, free support

and help.

It's there for you.

And then, of course, if you want more

professional support from me and my team specifically,

there's a host of different programs on my

website.

But the primary ways that I help people

is I have a digital program and it's

comprehensive.

It's big.

It's over 100 lessons.

It takes about 100 days.

But 100 days later, you should be through

the woods and know you are or you

should be well on your way and know

what you need to work on.

Like I've already said, I run a group

coaching call in that program.

We just did it yesterday.

It's one of my favorite things to do.

And then when I work with people individually,

the first step is a brain map.

We see what your brain is doing and

what it needs to heal.

And I spend an hour individually with people

being able to show them, connect all the

dots between their history, the way they're using

their brain in their life and how it's

showing up in dysfunction.

And then, of course, what to do about

it.

It's brilliant.

It's brilliant.

And just give us a newsflash about your

upcoming book next year.

Yeah.

So I am so excited because I just

saw accidentally that it is for preorder on

Amazon.

I was looking for something else.

And of course, I texted it out to

my best friends, to all my children.

I have five children.

So it is called Mind Over Explicit Matter.

The publisher is slating it and is hopeful

that it's going to be the gold standard

in porn addiction recovery.

It's designed for people who are addicted or

struggle with problematic porn use in it.

It has not only the knowledge base, so

it's filled with science.

I'm so excited because everything that's in my

program, everything that I tout to people, I

now have put a scientific resource or many

to it.