S2E4 ===

Music: [00:00:00] Things are breaking Things are breaking Hi Sarah, how

Paul Adelstein: are you?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm good. You put your guitar down.

Paul Adelstein: I don't know what you're talking about.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You were strumming my pain with your fingers.

Paul Adelstein: I would never annoy you with my

Sarah Wayne Callies: Killing me softly with your song. No, there's no annoying. I love your music. I do prefer it when you're dressed like a pirate. Yeah, that's it.

That's the only chord he knows, you guys. I'm so sorry. The only chord I

Paul Adelstein: know. He thinks he's in a band. It is the first song everyone learns.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Is it Stairway to Heaven?

Paul Adelstein: No, it's

Sarah Wayne Callies: Is this Horse With No Name? Hey! [00:01:00] You can't play this. We don't own it. We just got sued by America.

Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. There's no bad press. Um. Okay. How are you? Fair enough. I'm psyched to talk about this episode. I'm

Sarah Wayne Callies: psyched to talk about it. There were Okay. I did not know that the That's Good Pie scene was in this episode.

Paul Adelstein: Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, and so I was taken by surprise. Um.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. I kept expecting it and expecting it and then I Forgot about it.

There was.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's my favorite scene, maybe, that I did in the entire show, but certainly that I did with you. Is that true? I loved that scene so much, and I still haven't found my scripts from season two. Um, I have one more place to look, but I am dying to go back into that scene and see if that was line for line, because so much of what you did felt so I was like, did he just make that up?

Dollop of smack? Pinch of crack? I

Paul Adelstein: talked to the writer of that episode, Nick Centore, recently on the telephone. And [00:02:00] he mentioned that episode. He wrote that episode. Yeah. And, um, I said, cause I didn't remember exactly, I said, Did I ask permission to deliver That's Good Pie?

Sarah Wayne Callies: As

Paul Adelstein: Mr.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Hankey, the Christmas Pooh?

Paul Adelstein: Towelie. It's actually Towelie.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Hi dee ho, everybody! I'm a towel, you're a towel! This is

Paul Adelstein: a South Park thing from the time. Uh, yeah. And I don't know what, I don't know where it came from or why.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Amazing. And I

Paul Adelstein: was surprised that they let me do it. And I'm glad that it worked. I think that there's something, I mean, tell me why you liked the scene so much.

I can tell you why I liked doing it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, okay, should we, should we like actually intro the show and do the Yeah, let's intro the show. Calistine index and all that stuff so that people know what the hell we're talking

Paul Adelstein: about. Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Hi, welcome to prison breaking with Sarah and Paul. If you were looking for a different rewatch, you're in the wrong place.

Paul Adelstein: This is episode 204 and it is called First Down. First Down. Which is not a football [00:03:00] reference.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No. Which is so confusing to me because I know so much about football.

Paul Adelstein: Uh huh. And, well, uh, watching the show you'll be, you'll be, it becomes clear why it's called that. Let's jump into our calestine index.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Take it away, Paul.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, Episode 204 was titled First Down, which I'm sure is only a football reference. Wow, I already said that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I put it in the little script though, so you had to say it again. Yeah, I did.

Paul Adelstein: Okay. Episode 204, First Down, aired on September 11th, 2006. It was directed by returning director Bobby Roth, written by Nick Santora, one of the show's directors.

Core writers, who I recently spoke to on the phone, which I mentioned, the episode delivered 8. 96 million live viewers in the 8pm time slot against ABC special Path to 9 11 and a rerun of How I Met Your Mother on CBS and on NBC, another 9 11 related special titled Dateline NBC [00:04:00] Flight 93.

Sarah Wayne Callies: NBC really, uh, Really failed to read the room on that one.

Hey, or so no CBS. Like everyone's like, let's talk about 9 11. CBS is like, Hey, let's talk about how I met your mother.

Paul Adelstein: Fox is like

Sarah Wayne Callies: box has only been talking about 9 11 since 9 11. So let's take a break from 9

Paul Adelstein: 11 to show you episode 204.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Totally. Um, okay. Although actually when I was looking at the stuff for the index, I believe that our lead in for this show, Um, was an address from the president.

Music: Oh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, I believe there was a presidential address, uh, on, uh, the state of Fifth

Paul Adelstein: anniversary, yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Things of, yeah. Um, anyway, to recap the episode, um, this by the way is a mashup of several recaps that I read because they were, some of them were straight up unhinged, and some of them were like a haiku. I was like, that told me nothing.

Okay. So, if you don't like this recap, it's on me. Michael, Lincoln, and Nika, Michael's legal wife. Are attacked and [00:05:00] captured a

Paul Adelstein: little angry when she says that

Sarah Wayne Callies: by Hello. No, I actually love her. Um, are attacked and captured by Beic and Gary. Gary. Gary. Gear Gary, who as it turns out, want westmoreland's money, not the bouncy on Michael and Lincoln.

Um, Nika takes BE'S knife while giving him a lap dance and freeze the brothers. And then Bellick reveals Sara's condition, which is spoiler alert, not great. Nika double crosses Michael and Link, planning to deliver them to the loft for the bounty. They foil that plan. Meanwhile, Tweener gets involved with his road trip partner, the adorable Deverjean.

He doesn't tell her who he is. And Abruzzi learns of Fibonacci's whereabouts and goes to kill him over the strenuous objections of his wife. But the address is a set up by Mahon to capture him, and when Abruzzi refuses to surrender, he is fatally shot. First down. [00:06:00] First down. Mahone is blamed for the way he handled the situation, and elsewhere, Kellerman and Dr.

Sarah get to know one another under the false pretenses of a Narcotics Anonymous meeting.

Paul Adelstein: In pop culture news, on September 8th, Justin Timberlake dropped his second studio album titled Future Sex slash Love Sounds, which included the hit single. Sexy back.

Sarah Wayne Callies: On

Paul Adelstein: that same day, Whitney Houston filed for legal separation with intent to divorce from her husband, Bobby Brown.

They'd been married for 14 years full of controversy.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Ups and downs.

Paul Adelstein: And September 7th was the first regular season game of NFL's 87th season. The Pittsburgh Steelers, who were the reigning Super Bowl champions, defeated the Miami Dolphins 28 17.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Also on September 7th, in world events, British Prime Minister, British Prime Minister Tony Blair announced that he'd be stepping down.

The day before, on September 6th, the U. S. President George W. Bush confirmed for the first time that the CIA had held high value detainees. [00:07:00] In secret interrogation centers, uh, he also announced that 14 senior captives were being transferred from CIA custody to military custody at Guantanamo Bay.

Basically, for those of you following along, um, this was sort of the beginning announcement and acknowledgement of Gitmo, which, uh, was not a high point in, um, Human rights in more peaceful news on September 11th. This is something that I did not know anything about until our intern sent me this for the like what was going on this week, and I love it so much.

On September 11th, India celebrated the 100th anniversary of I apologize for my pronunciation. I'm going with Satya Graha. Um, Mahatma Gandhi's philosophy of nonviolent resistance. Satyagraha played a crucial role in India's independence movement. It began on September 11th, 1906, when speaking before 3000 Indians at a theater in Johannesburg, South [00:08:00] Africa, Gandhi organized a strategy of nonviolent resistance to oppose racist policies, policies of South African apartheid.

I actually move that we foreground this every September 11th. Yeah, seriously. Yes. Um. A day of, uh, international commitment to nonviolence.

Paul Adelstein: Um, and with that, let's take a quick break and then we're going to come back and talk about the episode. Quick break.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. Um. We're back. Welcome back. We have a lot to talk about.

Paul Adelstein: Yes. So tell me, uh, you were saying in the introduction that you loved shooting that scene or that's one of your favorite scenes. I'm curious as to why. Because usually you like burning people with irons, choking people. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I actually don't.

Those are not my favorite scenes. Um, uh, I liked it partly because It's just from a technical perspective, often in prison break, the show exists in close quarters and you have cameras quite close to your [00:09:00] faces. And so you're very aware of the process of filming while you're filming, which is not my favorite.

And I remember Bobby set up some really long lensy things and some, there's some like legit wides of just the two of us sitting out there. And I like that sense of air. I like that you can see both people for most of the scene. And you genuinely made me laugh. And I realized

Paul Adelstein: Oh, maybe that's why I did it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It might have been, because there's so little laughter in the show. I mean, there's like, a broodsie's like, ha ha ha, you know, and the like, teabag laughs at you and you're like, oh god, someone's gonna die.

Paul Adelstein: But moments of levity.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And, like, joy. And now, granted, it's all based on a house of cards, but Sara doesn't know it yet.

And I, I love it. And I love shooting it.

Paul Adelstein: You mentioned while, uh, during the rewatch, uh, when we were doing the rewatch, which you can all listen to, um, if you [00:10:00] subscribe to our Patreon. Patreon! That, uh, there's a scene that precedes the pie scene where we're getting coffee.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Yeah,

Paul Adelstein: yeah. And I, and I kind of apologized to you.

I said I was a dick, and you were like, well, I shouldn't have talked outta turn. And I was, no, you shouldn't have. Um, but you said, oh, it's, it's such a cool scene. We don't, we never look at each other. No, I cannot. Which, we're both going, we're both going through those. Haven't seen, we're both going through like a, you know, coffee dessert.

It's like a coffee service thing. Yeah. And we never look at each other. And I think the thing, now that you've brought it up, that both those scenes have in common and certain shows. don't have a lot of this is just behavior. Yeah, prison break doesn't have unless you're like, um, folding a paper crane or injecting somebody in terms of just yeah You know natural behavior.

It's a heightened show every scene Something kind of crucial is happening and something is being something some either information or some want from the other person [00:11:00] is Very very urgent. So there is a lot of Declaiming that like you must blah blah blah, we have to get to the blah blah, which is real and natural But I think what we use the word naturalistic Sometimes what we talk about is just behave just behaving sitting there and eating like the steaks on the on their surface

Sarah Wayne Callies: At

Paul Adelstein: the coffee thing and on the steps eating the pie are very very low The audience knows the stakes are high because Kellyman is obviously up to something.

But in terms of what's going on on screen, Um, the stakes are just two people getting to know each other, which this show frankly doesn't have a lot of. And I think that it was also, I, I, I really, the show benefited from, and certainly the fun of it benefited from, you know, there's a lot of ways for someone to ingratiate themselves to somebody else.

I could have gone to you with a sob story, but about my own addiction or falling down [00:12:00] or, uh, done something, but he actually kind of leads with warmth and joy and I'm not a threat. And that is a very different vibe. So much of the show has a sense of, uh, almost. You know this kind of ominous feeling of there's a threat around every corner.

And so this feeling of hey, nothing bad's going on here It's airy. It's light out. We're eating pie is really the the kind of Hard right turn of that is a breath of fresh air in that it kind of wakes you up and says oh what's going on here?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, although what's going two scenes back, what I think is kind of brilliant is Kellerman.

And by Kellerman, I think I mean, Santora in this moment had the foresight to go the way you get Sarah's attention. Is To make her feel [00:13:00] guilty for something, and she will apologize and feel indebted. Do you know what I mean? Like this idea of like, you interrupted me. What are you, a doctor? Do you know what I mean?

Like, I'm trying to tell, because I, I, you know, I've, I've I haven't been to an AA meeting, but from what I understand, like, not interrupting somebody while they're sharing is like a big deal. And, you know, obviously she's sort of new to the program, I think, in some ways, or, you know, to that meeting, but, um, Setting the trap with, you interrupted my healing process is an interesting way of And that he

Paul Adelstein: apologizes to her.

Yes. Um, do you know, I've probably said this on this podcast before, but do you know why it's called a con? A confidence game?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Because you're gaining somebody's confidence?

Paul Adelstein: No, because you're, no, it's the opposite. You're showing confidence in [00:14:00] them. Like a common, a common con is like at a Western Union where money gets wired.

Is you saying, you need, my, my money just came in, here's 200 bucks. And the person going, no, no, no, no, no, I can't take that. Be like, no, I insist. And then taking it and then you bumping into them later. Giving you 500 bucks because you showed confidence in them that they trust. So the fact that he says, he gives us Ms story, setting her, setting a hook basically because she's a doctor.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm a victim. But

Paul Adelstein: also knowing that you're a doctor, you know more about it than I do.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Absolutely.

Paul Adelstein: And that

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and you'll correct me.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, you'll correct me. And that I'll Blanch against that, setting you up, but then apologizing to you for snapping at you. Me humbling myself. And being like, I, you know, I didn't mean to be.

It's a great hook.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm hmm. It's, it, there's a lot of layer and a lot of nuance, and it [00:15:00] makes, what I, again, what I love about it is that it makes Kellerman look smart. Without making Sara look dumb. And I think that can be very difficult. It's, you know, there's a bit of a sense watching it of like, man, this is a good rap.

Yeah. This is a really, really good rap. And also

Paul Adelstein: it shows, I think it, I like that it shows his skill set. Um, like any, I mean, he's, he's special forces and, uh, uh, secret service, but there is a special forces CIA overlap and there's a lot of psychological training in there. For, uh, counter espionage and counter espionage and it's so funny when I was doing all the research on it and da, da, da, da, what I really like, what aligned perfectly on it, and when we were making the show Impostors, which is about con artists, uh, one of the things I loved learning, this stuff we were talking about, is that it's very similar to the kind of acting technique that I've always, uh, Um, ascribed to, which is the Meisner, [00:16:00] Meisner technique, which is basically the other person's more important.

How are you making them feel? Yeah. Con is the same thing. Just like an act. It's like, and so as, as that's really, it's just like, how am I, am I making her feel like I don't, I could find my script and see what I wrote in the margins, like in those little Meisner hints, which is like, make her feel safe, warmly.

Make her feel, you know, liked fraternally. Like I made sure that it wasn't, there was nothing sexual or flirty and that it was, that it was warm, but also, you know, the thing about con artists again, or any kind of, uh, undercover operative is that you have to actually connect with the person a little bit.

You can't fake it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No

Paul Adelstein: fake. Like you have to actually, you can't fake. And I think that he likes her. Yep. And respects her. And that allows him to do his job better because, you know, it's easy to become friends with her if she'll have him. [00:17:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and okay, so two things. Uh. I want to, I have a question I want to ask you in a second, but we just did a cool bonus episode with Barbara Harris, and she said something really cool about her first day on set,

Paul Adelstein: right?

She

Sarah Wayne Callies: a little bit as the character and as the actor fell in love with Bill Fickner slash Mahone, because the work was so riveting. And I think there is something to that there's something to like, Audiences can smell bullshit and they can smell anything that's not authentic and you can't fake chemistry.

You can't fake connection and even I think I apologize for bringing this up because it sounds so pretentious. I think it was Marlon Brando and it was Wentworth who told me this. That Marlon Brando said in a scene if you love someone or you hate them, it doesn't work. The audience will sense the connection.

If you are indifferent. [00:18:00] Yeah, and you know, talking about the phone call, we mentioned this a little bit on the rewatch, but it is wild to do a scene like that. I now, I always ask if I can call in for the other person and be like, can they, can you make this a real phone? Um, I can't remember on the day. What Sarah's saying is that she,

Paul Adelstein: she had this scene where she steps away and she gets a call.

It's the first time she's talked to Michael the entire season. Since the breakout. And it's obviously an emotional conversation. And she's like, oh, I had to just shoot that. And with somebody else reading his lines off camera conceivably.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think but I also like there's also a possibility

Paul Adelstein: that you called it

Sarah Wayne Callies: because Wentworth and I were pretty good at that.

That like, there's a possibility that I was like, I know that you're not know that he wasn't on set. I don't know.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And and quite frankly, he might have been in, you know, later that afternoon, [00:19:00] but to just be like, Can we get a working phone and can we actually have this conversation because it was monumental and his work on the other side of it is so fantastic

Paul Adelstein: connection to it's a very difficult thing to do.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, okay. So, also, and this is a small thing I mentioned in the rewatch, I don't know that I've ever been as stressed on this show as I was for Lane's towel. I, he was so close to that towel coming off that

Paul Adelstein: I was like,

Sarah Wayne Callies: please tell me that somebody stapled that. They're Velcro, which

Paul Adelstein: is another.

One of those things that once you see it on set, you can't unsee it. Uh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah, yeah. The people put Velcro on towels. Because then every time I see a movie where somebody's in

Paul Adelstein: a towel, I'm like, that towel's awfully tight. Like, that towel is, I mean, I cannot walk from my bathroom to my closet without the towel, without my towel falling off.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Now, see, I can, [00:20:00] but that's because I'm from Hawaii and we learned how to tie, like putty and towels and things. That's a thing. Um. Um, there was something else we mentioned in the watch party that I want to follow up on. Um, the woman who plays John Abruzzi's wife. We were like, wait, I know her! And she's so, so good.

Um, so we looked her up. Her name is Danielle D'Avecchio. She did 10 episodes of The Sopranos, wherein she played Tony Soprano's sister. Barbara. Nice pull. Um, And she's fantastic and looking at her IMDB, her, her resume, she's done a lot of Italian wives, um, and not a whole lot else. And so I wonder if she has like since moved on and she's like the, you know, the Attorney General of Delaware or something.

I don't know. She's probably doing something fascinating. Um, I love characters like

Paul Adelstein: that who can, I mean, go show up on a show. She probably did a day [00:21:00] on Prison Break, right? Maybe two. And she's tasked with having a complete.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: I don't remember if she's in season one when the kids come to visit him. I kind of feel like she wasn't.

Um. I don't think so. It said she was in one episode. You're tasked with showing up, standing opposite Peter Stormare. Uh

Sarah Wayne Callies: huh.

Paul Adelstein: Who's been on the show for years. And being able to, and being like. It

Sarah Wayne Callies: is

Paul Adelstein: a force of an actor. Having the gravitas to have this. Conceivably 25 year marriage with this person and bringing all that history and all that.

It's one of the hardest assignments in acting, I think, to, to show up and have that built in history with somebody and you totally buy it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: 100%. And as a guest star who has virtually no status on the show, you have to show up and take it to Peter. You have to show up and run the scene and be like, no motherfucker, you are not leaving.

Like, that takes

Music: [00:22:00] It

Sarah Wayne Callies: takes a real talent and she, um, I believed every inch of it. I was like, I want to, I want a whole episode around her. I was so curious about Mrs. Abruzzi. So, um, unfortunately we'll never see it because RIP, John Abruzzi, he has now been killed for the second time.

Paul Adelstein: I have a question. Uh, as you do, do you think, uh, the whole time you think that Barbara Jean is, um, Betraying.

You think that the, you think she's the rat, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I thought Lane was the rat. I think when he was saying, not Lane, but Tweener. Because he was the rat season one. In fact, I think there was even an episode called The Rat. So I think the misdirect when Mahone says, The rat might be the first one. The rat might give us our first caller, whatever it is. I do think the misdirect is that Barbara Jean is on the phone with Mahone, not her pops.

Yes, that's

Paul Adelstein: what I mean. Yes, right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, for sure. But [00:23:00] I think the rat refers to, uh, Tweener trading Michael Schofield's secrets for fries. Copy that. Yeah, Fibonacci's the rat. Um, but it's that wonderful classic prison break, like we're going to two places, we open one door, and it's not the place we thought.

And I, I do deeply, deeply love that.

Paul Adelstein: Can we talk about the, uh, just how, how much mileage, no pun intended, they get out of the, just how terrifying it is when Teabag is, is on camera.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Is on camera. Around other humans,

Paul Adelstein: like you kind of, he kind of works out his relationship with. Fox River 8 in the first season, that they kind of have him boxed in because he needs something from them.

And now that he's unleashed on the world, every time he walks into a room, you're like, this person's gonna die. And then Well, and to see him with a kid. That's also I mean [00:24:00] Sorry, but it's such a great piece of writing. That you're, that you're worried for this guy. Who's gonna, oh, I'm a vet and oh, da da da, and oh, I'll, I'll, I'll give you a ride.

And then you're like, oh, guess think this guy should do that. And then there's a kid in the car. So is he an equal opportunity predator or he, he's not. The idea is he was. Having homosexual sex in prison because just that's what he does in prison and he's just a horrible rapist, but that his predilection is for young girls.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, certainly his relationship with Mrs. Hollander argues for somebody who at least has some part of a heterosexual male thing. But then, when it comes to kids, I don't know if we've ever [00:25:00] learned anything gender wise about his preferences. We learned later that

Paul Adelstein: he was horribly abused and all that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yes.

Yeah, we learned, we learned that.

Paul Adelstein: Alright, we could, that's, that's enough of that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and certainly, like, I think, you get the sense that there's There's sex for power, which is what a lot of the prison hierarchy seems to demand. There's his unending search for a family. Do you know what I mean? Which is like, messed up with Mrs.

Hollander. Because I don't think, here's the weird thing, right? I think when we get into the backstory of T Bag, He never messes with Mrs. Hollander's kids. It's that she finds out. I

Paul Adelstein: think the implication is that he's going to, though. I think there's some pretty scary scenes where he's giving them the eyeball.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, I gotta look at this again, but it [00:26:00] feels like

Paul Adelstein: We're gonna get there soon.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and it also, it feels like, um, He's trying not to. Like, he's not with Mrs. Hollander because he's trying to get to her kids. He genuinely Has a thing for her and is trying to fight this other part of himself. And maybe loses the war.

I We'll, we'll learn more as we go. It's all, it's all Some of it's like, hard to watch.

Paul Adelstein: Hard to watch.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But not hard to watch was, um, the Country Road song. I really enjoyed that.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, with Tweener and Barbara Jean.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Barbara Jean, who reminds me more and more Barbara

Paul Adelstein: Jean? Barbara Jean?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Barbara Jean. I think so.

Debra Jean. Debra Jean. Sorry. It was Barbara.

Paul Adelstein: Sorry. Apologies. Barbara

Sarah Wayne Callies: Giglioni was the sopranos. Got

Paul Adelstein: it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Thing. Debra Jean who looks so much like a grown up Cindy Lou Who. She's.

Paul Adelstein: I mean, now that now that you've said it, I can't, I can't not see it. Cannot see it. Um, Country Roads, by the way, as I'm sure our listeners and [00:27:00] watchers know now has become, I mean, it was a big song when we were kids, kind of in a sing around the campfire way.

Mm

Sarah Wayne Callies: hmm. Mm hmm.

Paul Adelstein: And then that was almost a, that song had disappeared for years and now it is ubiquitous. You mentioned that. I don't know if it's a TikTok thing. I have not. Like I was watching the Monday Night Football and 80, 000 people, Mile High Stadium, were singing it like during a commercial break.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, Mile High Stadium, to be fair, it is John Denver.

Paul Adelstein: Country Road?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: What, what's the, oh, cause his name is Denver?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, his name's John Denver. Is he a Colorado

Paul Adelstein: guy? Yeah. It's a West song about West Virginia.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Fair enough, but he was like a, I thought he was a Colorado guy. He must have been a

Paul Adelstein: Colorado guy.

An Aspen guy.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I could be totally wrong. That's also not his real name, so he picked it. Um. Uh, yeah, I mean, like I was telling you, that song was really huge when I was growing up in Hawaii because Israel Kamaka Viva Ole, which I have only ever had trouble saying on this podcast. It's sort of embarrassing.

[00:28:00] He brought it is covered it, um, because the country is like the North shore of Oahu. And so if you're going to the country, you're going to the North shore. As I mentioned the first time I heard that song, I was like, Oh my God, they covered an Israel song and everybody got really quiet. And I was like, this is the backwards version of my childhood.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Um, more for episode 204. I wrote down Eric Norris, who was our stunt coordinator, who is an incredible stunt coordinator, really top of the top of the line. And we were talking about how, I mean, the car chase. is so good. Is really good. When Bellic is chasing Michael and Lincoln. And I wonder, I mean, there is a shot, and it's clearly, it is clearly Dominic at the wheel.

And it is clearly Wade in the passenger seat. With Geary driving. And the cars come, [00:29:00] they go like, they do that thing where like, they go like that, and I'm like, did they actually shoot

Sarah Wayne Callies: that? I wonder if, It wasn't, was it maybe a stunt double for Geary driving? Is it possible? Geary driving, fine,

Paul Adelstein: but you still have to, I mean, Dom may have been being towed.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, Dom would also have been like, dude, it's fine, I can just do it.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, no. Um. Also, wrong side of the road, like all sorts of issues there.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well,

Paul Adelstein: yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: he's been driving on the right for a long time.

Paul Adelstein: And, uh, wait, do they drive on the red in Australia? I have no idea. Okay. Anyway, yes. Toilets flush backwards, so I'm just assuming.

And then that car hitting the tree is no joke. Like, they messed those cars up. A lot of times on TV, for budgetary reasons and for time, they cheat those kinds of stunts. And we, between Gary Brown, who is our unit production manager, Dallas native and kind of tapped into the helicopters and uh, Oh, [00:30:00] yeah, and and the stunt stuff and then eric norris who grew up eric norris is one of chuck norris's sons.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yep

Paul Adelstein: Um

Sarah Wayne Callies: and grew up on the set of walker texas ranger,

Paul Adelstein: right? And many other things I would imagine and uh It's just a really great stunt coordinator. Those are really good stunts. Those were amazing stunts. It really ups the production value and the stakes of the show.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, it really does. And it, I mean, it, it does kind of continue that Brett Ratner thing that we started in the pilot, which is, this looks like a feature.

Um, and that was. Yeah, I

Paul Adelstein: mean, TV doesn't, even, even 24 at that time, they weren't doing stunts like that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: They weren't in Texas. I mean, I, like, Eric was a cowboy, like a straight up wild man. There were things I was like, we're gonna what? Um, And it was, you know, it was, it was cool. I mean, thankfully, nobody ever got hurt.

We've got some really beautiful footage.

Paul Adelstein: Mm hmm. All the train stuff? I mean, come on.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, it was, it was really wild. [00:31:00] I would, you know, it'd be interesting to see if we could get Eric on here to talk about Oh, I

Paul Adelstein: would

Sarah Wayne Callies: love that. the ways in which some of this stuff has changed now and what you're allowed to do and what you're not allowed to do and insurance and, um, that would be really cool.

I also, um, I have a note here.

Music: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Westmorelandstab.

Paul Adelstein: Okay. From this episode? He's dead.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I know. Or Westmorelandstache, maybe? Stache. Any idea what that note would be on? Oh, yes.

Paul Adelstein: Because, uh, this week

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's it! Uh,

Paul Adelstein: there's actually news that D. B. Cooper's relatives are saying that money somebody found the money, or

Sarah Wayne Callies: They think that's right.

They think they identified actual D. B. Cooper.

I think the money, I think the issue was always who is D. B. Cooper? Let me see real quick what happens if I pull this up and then we can get to some fan questions. D. B. Cooper,[00:32:00]

where's news news? Let's take, let's take a quick break and we'll come back with that. Okay. Sounds good.

Paul Adelstein: All right, we're back. Hold on. Sarah, read this now. Okay. This is the news of this, this week. This week.

Sarah Wayne Callies: This is, this was published November 26th.

Paul Adelstein: 2024.

Sarah Wayne Callies: 2024. This is, um, the New York Post, but there are a bunch of other articles. Siblings claim late dad is mysterious plane hijacker D. B. Cooper after finding hidden parachute in home.

Quote, one in a billion. Wait for it. A pair of North Carolina siblings. Claim their late father is the ever elusive Boeing hijacker D. B. Cooper after allegedly finding his parachute hidden in their home, according to a new report. Shantae and Rick McCoy. Oh my god, meaning he would be the real McCoy. No!

This is too good! Rick McCoy II. Claim their father, Richard McCoy Jr. Who would be [00:33:00] the real McCoy was the infamous fugitive who disappeared when he leaped out of a Boeing plane with 200, 000 in cash after taking passengers and crew hostage in 1971. The Cowboy State Daily reports siblings said they waited until their mother's death in 2020 to come forward, fearing she would be implicated as the parachute that allegedly belonged.

to Cooper was found in her storage stashed outside the house. Wait, let's just see.

Paul Adelstein: That

Sarah Wayne Callies: rig is literally one in a million. Apparently there's only one. Oh, and they also do, okay, first of all, apparently the parachute is very, very, um, specific. But also, they have a side by side of D. B. Cooper, the police sketch, and a picture of Richard McCoy.

And the real McCoy does actually look a A bit like D. B. Cooper.

Paul Adelstein: Um, can I ask you a question?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oui.

Paul Adelstein: First of all, I thought it was a lot more than 200, 000. On Prison Break, I think it's 5 [00:34:00] million. Um. No, I think that's isn't that the reveal? That he's like That's later, but I think they think it's 5 million, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think they think it's a million. And he's like Alright, it's a million.

Paul Adelstein: Here's my question.

If you were D. B. Cooper, or McCoy, and you jumped out of a plane in 1971 with a parachute. Why would you keep the parachute?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I don't know. Maybe that's a like, why do serial killers keep trinkets from their victims? And that is because

Paul Adelstein: they want to revisit the horror of it. All right, let's move on.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Maybe because disposing of the parachute would leave evidence that other people could find. I don't know. I, Paul, you're so cynical.

Paul Adelstein: So cynical. That's not

Sarah Wayne Callies: cynical. You're so cynical. Just let us have this.

Paul Adelstein: Okay. Just let us have, let

Sarah Wayne Callies: us have, by the way, not just that we found D. B. Cooper, but he's the real McCoy.

Paul Adelstein: Or his kids like now give us the frigging money.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I, [00:35:00] I don't know. I didn't finish reading the article, but I think they actually have, there's something, if I scroll down, they like have a decomposed bill that might be the same.

I don't know. Anyway, um, let's look at some fan questions. Okay, good.

Paul Adelstein: At San Juan Wang, uh, they asked, Were there any unscripted moments that were kept in the show? And we were just discussing that in the pie scene, And I don't think so. We didn't really improvise much. I mean, physically unscripted stuff would come, And sometimes a line or two would get added, But usually, not on the day.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I, you know, that would be an interesting question. I don't know. Do I think it's possible that Lane made up some of those country hoe, take me home lyrics? I do. He was super funny and.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, that's true. I think Lane, Lane would go to town more.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, I mean, I think.

Paul Adelstein: Also appropriate to the character.

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:36:00] Super. And he had a real handle.

I feel like

Paul Adelstein: he put a yo in almost everywhere. And he had a

Sarah Wayne Callies: real handle on who Tweener was. He, by the way, was the only Dallas native in the cast. Um, he's going to come on the show and we're going to talk about that. But, he was coming on. Uh,

Paul Adelstein: here's another question for you. At Alessia. Wallace In season two, Sarah, you cut and colored your hair, or conceivably somebody else did, I'd imagine.

Was this your decision that they wrote into the show, that they had to write into the show because you did it in between seasons? Or did they write it in and ask you to do it as part of the story? Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: so that was the decision that the show made. Um, they wanted me to, they wanted me to cut off as much as I could to be on the run.

Um. Once we got to that point and it was a weird, actually, it was a sort of, it became this sort of like hair gate thing. Um, yeah,

Paul Adelstein: it always does.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We tried on like four or [00:37:00] five different wigs of different lengths. I, it's almost a Hawaii thing. Like having long hair has always been like kind of part of who I am.

And I was like, no, I'm totally willing to cut it. But also let's not cut it as something that's going to look awful. And so we ended up cutting it quite short. We wanted it to look really kind of shaggy. And I was going to, um, L. A. to do some press around that time. And there was a guy that had been cutting my hair for years.

And so we had him do it. And, uh, you know, I thought he did a good job. Um, and I found out at the end of the season that it had really upset the show hairstylist. That she'd been really hurt

Music: that

Sarah Wayne Callies: he had done it and not her. And I had no idea, do you know what I mean? Like, I, she never came to me and was like, Hey, I'd really love to do this.

I think it'd be cool. And that was really like. I felt bad about that. I felt really bad about that, um, because had I known, we could have absolutely worked something out. So belated apology that that ended up causing hurt. The color was a bit [00:38:00] We're jumping ahead a little bit in time here, but the color, um, partly got chosen because I went in for there to just do my roots, uh, around the time.

Um, I think we were doing, doing the color and then I was going to go to L. A. for the cut, it was all around the same time. And she put the color on that she always does. Um, the hairstylist on the show who did it all the time, she was brilliant. And, uh, and then she took the color out and my hair went black.

It never happened before. And we were like, oh shoot, this is not what it's ever been before.

Paul Adelstein: What do you do about that? Well,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I went over to Nono, uh, Nanette, who was our makeup artist, who joined the cast, joined the show in season two, and was like the heart and soul of the show. She's like one of the loveliest human beings ever to walk the face of the earth.

And she looked at me and she goes, Honey, pick up a pregnancy [00:39:00] test on your way home. And I was like, What? And she goes, Come on. What? She's like, I've been watching your skin for the last week. She's like, I've been doing this a long time. She's like, pick up a pregnancy test on your way home. And I picked up a pregnancy test on my way home.

And we'd been trying to, you know, have a baby. Like, it wasn't, it wasn't an accident by any means. But we had stopped trying. The way you do, do you know what I mean? You like, try, try, try. And then you're like, I think this trying is probably getting in the way.

Music: Yeah, we're trying too

Sarah Wayne Callies: hard. And like, you know, this process should be fun, so let's just make it fun.

And, uh, I remember my mom was in town, and she came over for dinner, and, uh, and I was like, okay, so, I'm gonna drink a big glass of something, and, you know, water or something, I can't remember what. And I'm gonna pee on a stick, and sure enough, like, Bright pink. I [00:40:00] think it's two lines. I can't remember the, you know, but the thing, but

Music: You had COVID.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yes. Sure enough, I, I delivered COVID. Um, but it was really wild because Nono was the first person. Is, does this have something to do with the hair color? Yeah. Yeah. That the hormones changed the way the color landed, which doesn't make sense to me because there's no hormones in this, right? Like this is not, this is dead, but I.

All I can say is, you know, the, the hair person was like, Oh shit. And we were like, no, no, it's okay. We're going to cut it. We're going to change it for the show. Anyway, like we'll make this work. And I went over to no, no. So that she could look at my skin and figure out like, how do we balance your complexion with black hair?

And she was like. I've noticed for the last week.

Paul Adelstein: Can I ask how, at that point, So we're in episode Oh, this is before So, you were pregnant the entire season? No,

Sarah Wayne Callies: no, no, no. This was, so, cutting the hair happens mid season. So I got pregnant in Oh,

Paul Adelstein: okay. We're not there yet. No,

Sarah Wayne Callies: because I got pregnant in, I want to [00:41:00] say, October.

And we started shooting in July. Um, because by the time we

Paul Adelstein: Were you pregnant when we shot the bathroom scene?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I don't I don't think so. I know I was pregnant when I, no, I was, we'll have to see what number it was. I think I did the math and I think it's episode like 10 or so, nine or 10 that I was pregnant.

I do know I was pregnant for the train because I had the worst morning sickness.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, I'm a cheeky. Oh God. It was, it was,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I threw up so much.

Paul Adelstein: I barfed I know. I can't remember if I knew. I don't feel like I did.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I told Wentworth.

Paul Adelstein: Sure.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um.

Paul Adelstein: But I just mean, uh, well no, I don't just mean, I don't mean as friends, I mean like from a stunt perspective?

I

Sarah Wayne Callies: think, we'll see what scenes those are. I think that was beforehand. I think that was just beforehand.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, I [00:42:00] can't imagine that that wouldn't have been.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, I would have at least told you and Norris. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have put you in the position of like, Oh dear God, something awful happened and you didn't know that you could have been a part of that.

Yeah, yeah,

Paul Adelstein: yeah. Cause I was planning on surprising you. With a punch to the stomach. I'm just the gut real quick to see if she's paying attention. Speaking of which, okay, I think that's what we have. I think that's all we have. Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: we've gone way ahead. Um. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: We have a lot of questions, uh, from fans that we'll get to.

Thank you for them. Uh, thank you for being here with us. Don't forget to subscribe to The Watch Party and other bonus content on our Patreon link, including Fan Fiction Fridays. And the link to the Patreon is on the show page, wherever you're listening right now.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And, uh, just a quick wrap up question for you.

I know I've already asked you where you would go. Um, but what do you think you'd be on the run from? What crime would you have committed? Would you be a white collar criminal? Would you have died defending the [00:43:00] honor of some Oh, sure.

Paul Adelstein: Like a Jean Valjean thing? I would have stolen bread from my family. I'll go with that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You stole two candlesticks from a church. Yes, I would

Paul Adelstein: say I killed some horrible, or let's say incapacitated some horrible person.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right. You're vigilante justice. I

Paul Adelstein: was clearly, clearly, clearly falsely accused, or unjustly accused. But I had to run like very much like kind of like Harrison Ford in the fugitive.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay fair enough

Paul Adelstein: I didn't kill my wife. Um, I don't have a wife Alright, but I think God what would I yeah, hopefully something of great moral purpose that I just had to do.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay Sorry, that was a big question to spring on you at the last minute. It's a good question. Um, but thank you everybody for being here.

And think about it. Yeah. You know, think about it. If you were going to go to jail, what would you go to jail for?

Paul Adelstein: Oh my god. Anyway,

Sarah Wayne Callies: maybe don't think about it. Uh, Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a Caliber Studio production. [00:44:00]

Paul Adelstein: Your hosts have been inmates, Sarah Wayne Callies and Paul Adelstein. Our prison

Sarah Wayne Callies: warden is producer Ben Haber.

Paul Adelstein: The front man of our jailhouse rock band is me Paul Adelstein, who made all our music. Our

Sarah Wayne Callies: prison yard Tattoo artist logo, and brand designer is John Nunziatto at Little Big Brands. Check them out at www.littlebigbrands.com.

Paul Adelstein: Follow us on Instagram at Prison Break Podcast. Email us at pbpodcast@caliber-studio.com and call us at (401) 3-PBREAK

Sarah Wayne Callies: Prison.

Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a Caliber Studio production. Thank you for listening. Void where prohibited, not available in all 50 states. Actually, we are available in all. Anyway, [00:45:00] bye.