(00:00:00): Hi, I'm Zahn Belines, and this is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

(00:00:04): I'm here today with Dr.

(00:00:06): Joanne Finkelstein,

(00:00:07): a psychologist and expert on talking to children about sexism and other issues of justice.

(00:00:13): Patriarchy teaches men a script for how to treat women,

(00:00:16): but it also teaches women a script about how to respond and what to accept.

(00:00:20): Parents are often the first teachers of this script.

(00:00:23): Perhaps this is why one of the most common questions I get from readers is how to

(00:00:26): raise feminist-empowered daughters.

(00:00:29): Joanne and I originally recorded a podcast about raising feminist kids a few weeks ago,

(00:00:34): and then my computer decided to attempt a homicide and delete the whole thing.

(00:00:38): So this is actually our second conversation,

(00:00:41): but I'm really glad that we're having it because now...

(00:00:44): We're doing this in the wake of the election when a lot of parents who are

(00:00:48): terrified are scrambling to talk to kids who are terrified.

(00:00:51): And I think that Joanne is the perfect person to guide us through this process.

(00:00:57): So Joanne, I'm so happy to have you here.

(00:01:00): I'm so glad to be back on, especially at this time.

(00:01:05): So I'm going to tell you guys a little bit about Joanne first.

(00:01:08): Joanne Finkelstein is a clinical psychologist and the author of Sexism and Sensibility,

(00:01:13): Raising Empowered,

(00:01:14): Resilient Girls in the Modern World.

(00:01:16): She was educated at Harvard University and Northwestern University and now

(00:01:21): maintains a private clinical practice,

(00:01:23): rooting in an understanding of how bias,

(00:01:25): social justice,

(00:01:26): and mental health intersect.

(00:01:28): Dr.

(00:01:28): Finkelstein serves on the advisory board for Stop Sexual Assault in Schools,

(00:01:33): has served on the board of the Chicago chapter of the National Organization for Women,

(00:01:37): volunteered for Planned Parenthood Political Action Committee,

(00:01:40): and was an organizer for the Chicago Women's March.

(00:01:43): She lives in Chicago, Illinois.

(00:01:45): I'll put all of her links as well as information about how to buy her new book in

(00:01:48): the show notes.

(00:01:49): And I just want to note that this book is really worth buying.

(00:01:53): I know there are so many self-help books about parenting out there.

(00:01:57): But Joanne's book is so information dense,

(00:02:01): and it gives you really practical,

(00:02:04): usable scripts that you can implement right away.

(00:02:07): And you really feel like you have a coach who understands how to handle these

(00:02:12): really thorny topics.

(00:02:13): So it's called Sexism and Sensibility, and you should go buy it right now.

(00:02:18): Joanne, like I said, I love your book.

(00:02:21): I love you.

(00:02:22): I love the work you're doing.

(00:02:23): And

(00:02:24): I think that you are the right person to talk to about this election.

(00:02:28): So let's just begin with, what the fuck?

(00:02:32): What the actual fuck?

(00:02:36): It's so scary.

(00:02:37): And I think...

(00:02:39): There's so much ground to cover,

(00:02:42): but one of the things that I think needs sort of an urgent intervention is that no

(00:02:47): matter who won this election,

(00:02:49): we have a problem in this culture.

(00:02:52): Trump did not spring out of nowhere.

(00:02:55): And even if he lost, we would have this world of racist, sexist, violent men to contend with.

(00:03:04): So,

(00:03:04): you know,

(00:03:05): I think people need to keep that in mind that we didn't have a choice between a

(00:03:10): perfect world and a terrible one.

(00:03:11): We had a choice between two pretty challenging worlds and we chose the more

(00:03:16): challenging one,

(00:03:17): unfortunately.

(00:03:17): Yeah, right.

(00:03:21): Sexism, racism, xenophobia.

(00:03:23): It wasn't all going to disappear if Kamala Harris just got elected like we'd hoped.

(00:03:29): And I think one of the few perhaps positive aspects of the Trump election is that

(00:03:36): it's really gonna test all the things that he's saying he wants to do and show his

(00:03:40): followers what can actually happen.

(00:03:43): And then this also puts pressure on the left to really rise to this challenge

(00:03:49): And talk to our kids and raise a generation of activists who are prepared to push

(00:03:53): back on whatever is to come.

(00:03:55): That's how I'm framing this to my kids, because I don't know what else to do.

(00:04:00): Joanne, how are you framing this to your kids?

(00:04:05): Yeah, it's a really, really good question and a really important question.

(00:04:08): You know, my sort of guiding framework is to think of that quote.

(00:04:15): Right.

(00:04:15): That says to be truly radical is to make hope possible rather than despair convincing.

(00:04:22): Which is really hard to do when you're feeling so much despair as a parent.

(00:04:28): But,

(00:04:29): you know,

(00:04:29): we all know it's important for parents to manage their own reactions constructively.

(00:04:34): Right.

(00:04:34): And so I've got both going on.

(00:04:38): I've got in my kids.

(00:04:40): Right.

(00:04:41): One that's panicking and one that's saying, well, it's just four more years.

(00:04:47): Right.

(00:04:48): And there's a part of me that really wants to disabuse that child of that notion

(00:04:53): that it's only four more years.

(00:04:54): But I don't really want to do that.

(00:04:57): I want her I want to do it slowly.

(00:05:00): Right.

(00:05:00): Like I'm my whole book is all about sort of using teachable moments and playing the long game.

(00:05:06): And so my goal is to make sure my kids don't panic,

(00:05:11): but that they do know that there are things that they can do.

(00:05:14): to get involved,

(00:05:15): to fight back,

(00:05:16): to make sure that they're living in a world that holds the same values that they hold.

(00:05:24): I think that's great advice.

(00:05:25): And I think another thing to consider is one of the things that's really

(00:05:29): challenging about talking to parents about how we talk to our kids is that

(00:05:34): Every family situation is really different.

(00:05:36): You know,

(00:05:37): if you're talking about a family where there's an undocumented immigrant in the family,

(00:05:41): the level of fear and the sorts of issues that you're going to have to address are

(00:05:45): very different than,

(00:05:47): you know,

(00:05:47): white American middle-class citizens.

(00:05:50): And I think that that is particularly important for white American middle-class

(00:05:56): citizens to remember.

(00:05:58): One of the pieces of advice that I have been giving people is that

(00:06:03): We really need to be realistic about our personal level of exposure.

(00:06:08): And if we are in the low risk group,

(00:06:13): and that does include women to some extent,

(00:06:16): even though we are going to see so many rights stripped away.

(00:06:19): But, you know, we're not going to be put in camps if we are white and middle class.

(00:06:24): We're not going to be deported to a country we've never lived in.

(00:06:27): We have fewer concerns about police brutality and injustice.

(00:06:31): And we need to be honest with ourselves about that because if we have that privilege,

(00:06:36): then we have to weaponize that privilege against these abusive systems rather than

(00:06:42): wallowing in our own fear.

(00:06:44): We cannot treat this like a football game that we're sad we lost.

(00:06:50): Yeah, exactly.

(00:06:51): I mean, it's reminding, you're reminding me of those, you know,

(00:06:57): videos on those reels on Instagram and TikTok with Black women saying,

(00:07:03): you know,

(00:07:04): fuck the blue bracelets,

(00:07:06): right?

(00:07:06): You're not this team of good doers, right?

(00:07:10): Or, you know, this team who has to know who's safe and who's not safe.

(00:07:14): What you need to do, like, we don't need your protection.

(00:07:17): What we need you to do is use your privilege to talk to those other white people

(00:07:23): and those other privileged people who voted against their own

(00:07:29): you know, vote against their own and our rights and best interests, right?

(00:07:34): And I've had this conversation with my kids, right?

(00:07:37): That we're lucky, we're gonna be protected for now at least.

(00:07:45): But it's our responsibility to use that privilege as a tool against the system that

(00:07:51): granted us that privilege.

(00:07:53): Yeah.

(00:07:54): It's so important.

(00:07:55): I have two very anxious kids.

(00:07:58): One is a toddler who doesn't really understand what's happening.

(00:08:00): She just understands that it's scary.

(00:08:02): And then I have a very politically engaged second grader.

(00:08:06): And I was really scared to tell her that I had one.

(00:08:09): And so my husband and I talked a lot about what we were going to tell her.

(00:08:12): And what we finally arrived at is nothing about your life is going to change.

(00:08:18): You are safe.

(00:08:19): We will be with you.

(00:08:20): We will love you.

(00:08:21): Everybody in your life will love you no matter what.

(00:08:24): But we know people whose lives are going to change and we know people whose lives might change.

(00:08:30): And because you are safe, you have a moral obligation to stand up for them.

(00:08:34): And I sort of watched her spine stiffen when I said that to her.

(00:08:40): I watched her transition from someone who was

(00:08:42): scared and defeated to someone who felt like she had some power to help other people.

(00:08:48): And I think that kids really thrive on being given the power to be positive influences.

(00:08:55): Oh, that is such a beautiful way that you put it to her.

(00:09:02): And I think that really gets to the heart of being able to give them hope and a

(00:09:07): sense of empowerment,

(00:09:09): right?

(00:09:09): Like, um,

(00:09:12): We wanna get across to them that what's so much of what's right about our country

(00:09:18): hasn't come,

(00:09:18): hasn't actually come from the government,

(00:09:21): but from people standing up to injustice.

(00:09:24): And there's millions of examples that we can pull from to show that, to illustrate that.

(00:09:32): Yeah, yeah, I love that.

(00:09:33): So can you tell me a little bit, I know that you're still in clinical practice,

(00:09:38): tell me what you're seeing with people,

(00:09:41): what people are experiencing,

(00:09:42): and also what you're observing in terms of effective strategies for talking to kids,

(00:09:48): both strategies that are effective for supporting kids,

(00:09:52): but that are also effective for really encouraging critical thinking and a social

(00:09:57): justice mindset.

(00:10:01): I am seeing everything across the board.

(00:10:05): The most challenging sessions I

(00:10:07): had have been with people who support Trump.

(00:10:14): And it's of course, easier to relate to people that have much more similar politics to me.

(00:10:22): But so I've had a lot of teenage girls that are crying.

(00:10:28): But you know,

(00:10:29): you know,

(00:10:29): it's also sort of interesting and diagnostic when somebody doesn't even bring it up.

(00:10:35): And so

(00:10:37): I think one of the important things to remind our daughters,

(00:10:41): right,

(00:10:42): is that one reason that these men were elected is because of the strength that

(00:10:49): women truly hold.

(00:10:50): Right.

(00:10:50): Our collective power is intimidating to people who aren't ready for change and growth.

(00:10:56): And that was I mean,

(00:10:57): I don't know that I would add this part in,

(00:10:58): but that is,

(00:11:00): you know,

(00:11:00): how witches were born.

(00:11:05): that smart, intelligent, threatening women were labeled witches.

(00:11:10): And so now that we understand our collective power, we really have to stand with other women.

(00:11:18): And that means not turning our backs on women who voted for Trump, right?

(00:11:25): I'm actually putting out a newsletter tomorrow that's in the midst of writing and

(00:11:30): it's talking about the psychological reasons why women

(00:11:34): may have voted for Trump.

(00:11:37): And there's several reasons that I surmise and one of them is internalized misogyny.

(00:11:46): So if we have been talking throughout their growing up years,

(00:11:51): what misogyny is,

(00:11:53): why we might absorb it and come to believe some of these things about ourselves,

(00:11:58): right?

(00:11:59): The hope is that they are going to be able to question sexism

(00:12:03): not internalize it and not grow up to people who can't imagine voting for a woman

(00:12:11): or especially a black woman.

(00:12:12): Yeah, I think that's really important.

(00:12:17): I did an interview with Desiree Stevens a couple of months ago,

(00:12:21): who is an incredible racial justice educator.

(00:12:24): And pretty much the drumbeat that Desiree has been pounding for the last two weeks

(00:12:30): is pleading with white people to not do this thing where you refuse to talk to

(00:12:34): Trump supporters.

(00:12:37): He argues that we have to connect with their humanity so that we can pull them into

(00:12:41): our circle of humanity.

(00:12:44): And then doing that is really the only hope for change and that alienating them just

(00:12:49): intensifies their beliefs.

(00:12:51): I would add to what she has said that feminism is for all women and that women who

(00:12:57): are Trump supporters will also be victimized under Trump,

(00:13:01): have been victimized under our misogynistic system.

(00:13:05): And perhaps most interestingly,

(00:13:08): my own internal data suggests to me that between five and 10% of the women

(00:13:14): who subscribe to my explicitly feminist black lives matter,

(00:13:19): far left wing newsletter voted for Trump.

(00:13:23): And like, wow, you're the expert on human thoughts and behavior.

(00:13:28): Tell me what to make of that.

(00:13:33): Um,

(00:13:33): well,

(00:13:33): you know,

(00:13:34): I think that goes along partly with the,

(00:13:36): um,

(00:13:36): identification with normalized misogyny,

(00:13:40): but I also think that there's this,

(00:13:43): um,

(00:13:43): identification with the aggressor stuff going on, right?

(00:13:49): So the identification with the aggressor, right?

(00:13:52): It's a defense mechanism where someone facing oppression or victimization begins to

(00:13:58): empathize or identify with the source of their distress,

(00:14:02): right?

(00:14:02): And then over time, they might adopt characteristics or behaviors of that person.

(00:14:07): And we're seeing that right now since the election, right?

(00:14:11): Like think your body, my choice.

(00:14:15): But in any case,

(00:14:16): I think that it's a strategy for feeling less powerless and helps explain why

(00:14:24): people show tolerance of or collusion with bullies,

(00:14:28): right?

(00:14:29): And it's not just women who experience it,

(00:14:31): people of all genders can experience it,

(00:14:33): but since women are more powerless in our culture,

(00:14:38): aligning with powerful figures and adopting biases against their own sex,

(00:14:43): can allow them to feel that they're part of the dominant group where they believe

(00:14:48): or they can convince themselves that they won't be targeted or judged.

(00:14:54): So,

(00:14:55): you know,

(00:14:55): I think even if women are put off by his offensive language and certain policies,

(00:15:01): it feels safe and empowering to join them.

(00:15:04): And one more thing, I think it also, this is kind of the creepier part.

(00:15:08): It also feels exciting.

(00:15:12): And the reason I say that is in some ways,

(00:15:15): right,

(00:15:15): we can all relate to the wish to break the rules,

(00:15:18): defy authority,

(00:15:19): especially as women maybe who have been conditioned for so long to be agreeable and,

(00:15:26): you know,

(00:15:26): to have heard repeatedly that their anger is crazy.

(00:15:29): So when you see someone who can so brazenly flout social norms,

(00:15:36): right,

(00:15:36): he might appeal to those transgressions.

(00:15:38): transgressive wishes that we all have,

(00:15:41): but especially in conservative women who may have more deeply internalized the

(00:15:47): restrictions imposed on them from a young age.

(00:15:50): Yeah, that's a really interesting insight that I hadn't even considered.

(00:15:55): I also think that we can't underestimate the role of victim blaming.

(00:16:00): You know, I I've often said that we engage in victim blaming so we can feel safe.

(00:16:05): You know, if I don't do those bad things, then bad things won't happen to me.

(00:16:09): Yes.

(00:16:11): And I think these women are aligning themselves with power.

(00:16:16): One of the more interesting insights I've heard comes from my husband,

(00:16:21): who's a civil rights attorney.

(00:16:22): So he litigates a lot of prison deaths,

(00:16:25): police abuse,

(00:16:27): really,

(00:16:27): really violent,

(00:16:28): upsetting stuff that's obviously very politicized.

(00:16:32): And one of the things that he has said is that often on a jury,

(00:16:36): you don't want someone who has experienced

(00:16:40): similar violence or worse violence than your client,

(00:16:44): because they may consider your client a whiner or they may look at your client and say,

(00:16:49): here are the things that this person did to cause it.

(00:16:52): Because in separating themselves from the person who's been victimized,

(00:16:57): they're allowed to sort of re-empower themselves and feel a sense of safety.

(00:17:01): And I do hear a lot from conservative women.

(00:17:05): Oh, these left-wing women are just whiners.

(00:17:07): They're overreacting.

(00:17:08): They're hyperbolic.

(00:17:10): You know, it's not that bad.

(00:17:11): And,

(00:17:13): you know,

(00:17:13): a lot of that comes from these women having experienced really brutal abuse at the

(00:17:19): hands of men and not connecting that personal experience to the political realities

(00:17:24): they're voting for.

(00:17:28): Yeah, I mean, I think that's such a good point and so true, right?

(00:17:34): And I think that also comes from the, it's part of internalized misogyny

(00:17:38): where you grow up and you learn that you wanna be any kind of girl,

(00:17:46): but that girl,

(00:17:47): and that girl is basically just a girl,

(00:17:50): right?

(00:17:50): And so we learn to disidentify with people of our own sex and gender and say,

(00:17:59): well,

(00:17:59): we're not like that.

(00:18:00): I'm not like that.

(00:18:01): I'm not a whiner.

(00:18:02): I'm not gonna complain.

(00:18:04): So yeah, 100%.

(00:18:06): patriarchy does, right?

(00:18:07): It does its most effective work when it turns women against each other,

(00:18:11): making them afraid to be feminist and encouraging competition and distrust between

(00:18:16): them and make anybody who stands up for themselves a whiner.

(00:18:22): But yeah, we're gonna ask.

(00:18:24): So,

(00:18:24): well,

(00:18:25): on that point,

(00:18:27): something that a lot of my readers say they're struggling with is their sons are

(00:18:32): getting or have been radicalized.

(00:18:36): And, you know, some of them also have daughters who are like moderates or even Trump supporters.

(00:18:44): And that's a really hard position to be in as a parent because then you get into a

(00:18:47): space where you're like trying to impose your values on your kids and then they're

(00:18:52): rebelling against them and you get more and more panicked about who is this person

(00:18:55): going to grow up to be.

(00:18:57): Talk to me about talking to kids who have these reactionary views.

(00:19:02): What can or should parents do?

(00:19:04): That's such a hard one.

(00:19:08): You know, I have a son who

(00:19:12): he voted for Kamala and he is he's you know he thinks Trump is a complete ass but

(00:19:24): he's more moderate than I am and he has watched all the you know Logan Paul stuff

(00:19:32): and Joe Rogan stuff and he's a news junkie so he watches all of it from all sides

(00:19:39): and the minute

(00:19:40): that Trump was on Joe Rogan and he was listening and Trump was funny and ha ha.

(00:19:49): And he said, it is gonna be a big mistake that Kamala didn't go on Joe Rogan.

(00:19:55): And so I'm just saying that, and he was right, he really called it.

(00:19:59): And so I'm saying all this is that it can feel like we are no match for social media,

(00:20:08): but all we can do is keep on talking.

(00:20:11): about what we know to be true.

(00:20:14): And that is that men are having a lot of trouble these days.

(00:20:22): They're lonely.

(00:20:23): They are not cool.

(00:20:24): Like we can empathize with all the things that men and probably many of those sons

(00:20:29): you're talking about are feeling,

(00:20:31): but that women are being used as a scapegoat for their problems.

(00:20:36): They are saying because women

(00:20:38): have gained more equality and have made progress.

(00:20:41): Men are doing worse, boys are doing worse.

(00:20:43): And that's just not the case, right?

(00:20:45): That we have to, that equality is important for everybody.

(00:20:50): And hopefully that is a,

(00:20:53): even if they've been pulled in by the manosphere,

(00:20:56): hopefully,

(00:20:57): you know,

(00:20:58): your friends' values of that everybody deserves equality has seeped in some.

(00:21:04): And so that they can say to their kids like,

(00:21:07): men have to learn to adapt to equality and um just because women are progressing it

(00:21:15): doesn't mean men have to regress but we all have to learn to adapt and be in

(00:21:20): relationship with each other so i i think that it's um there's not an easy answer

(00:21:27): and i wish i could just say say a b and c but just to know you're playing the long

(00:21:32): game not to give up to um

(00:21:36): say how you feel and,

(00:21:38): um,

(00:21:39): have many conversations about it,

(00:21:41): but don't devolve into shaming them because that's where we lose them.

(00:21:47): And it's so easy for any of us.

(00:21:49): I mean,

(00:21:49): I've had,

(00:21:50): you know,

(00:21:50): even before the election,

(00:21:51): I was fighting with my son about things and it was like,

(00:21:54): I had to bite my tongue 10 times.

(00:21:57): Um, and honestly, through our conversations, I can see, um,

(00:22:02): I can see how much,

(00:22:03): and through sending him my newsletters and stuff,

(00:22:06): I can see how much more empathy he's developed for friends of his and me and other

(00:22:14): women he knows who are really,

(00:22:18): really sad about what happened in this election and what it says about our culture.

(00:22:26): Yeah.

(00:22:26): you know, it's, you mentioned your son.

(00:22:28): So I have a child in my family,

(00:22:30): not one of my kids,

(00:22:31): but someone who I play like a parental role to who is a Trump supporter.

(00:22:36): Now, fortunately she's too young to vote.

(00:22:38): Thank God.

(00:22:38): Um,

(00:22:40): But I find that my first impulse with her is always the kind of shaming,

(00:22:45): punitive thing of,

(00:22:47): well,

(00:22:47): you know,

(00:22:47): that I'm just not going to pay for you to get your nails done then.

(00:22:50): And well, I'm just not going to talk to you because it's just so frustrating and enraging.

(00:22:55): But I think then it gives her something to rebel against and it becomes kind of

(00:23:00): rewarding of like,

(00:23:01): well,

(00:23:01): this mean person in my family,

(00:23:03): you know,

(00:23:03): doesn't understand me,

(00:23:05): but you know,

(00:23:05): all my Trump do.

(00:23:07): And I think we also the thing that she's told me,

(00:23:10): you know,

(00:23:11): I have resisted my punitive impulses with her,

(00:23:13): though I have to,

(00:23:14): like,

(00:23:15): take a lot of deep breaths.

(00:23:18): The thing that she says over and over again is that Trump is funny and interesting.

(00:23:24): And I think that we cannot underestimate the power of the weaponization of coolness.

(00:23:31): You know,

(00:23:31): it's really easy to be cool and funny when you don't give a shit about anybody else

(00:23:36): and when you're not offended by racism and sexism.

(00:23:38): And I think our side then just looks like uninteresting and uncool.

(00:23:45): And like, I don't know how to be cool.

(00:23:49): Right.

(00:23:49): We looked so buttoned up.

(00:23:51): And,

(00:23:51): you know,

(00:23:52): I think that's part of the like identification with the aggressor or transgressor.

(00:23:57): Right.

(00:23:57): Like the class or the class clown.

(00:24:00): Right.

(00:24:01): They're kind of the one who stands out and they're funny.

(00:24:04): And part of you wishes,

(00:24:06): you know,

(00:24:06): part of her probably wishes that she could just be free to say whatever's on her mind.

(00:24:11): But.

(00:24:13): I think that's totally it.

(00:24:14): And we just also cannot underestimate how social media is priming and grooming these kids.

(00:24:24): So my husband's main hobby is fitness.

(00:24:27): He's like a fitness bro, even though he's like a far leftist.

(00:24:31): So the only thing he ever really looks at on YouTube are like fitness videos.

(00:24:35): There's not a lot of politics.

(00:24:37): That's not how he consumes political stuff.

(00:24:39): But then if you go to his YouTube homepage,

(00:24:42): And see what the algorithm is feeding him solely based on his interest in fitness.

(00:24:47): It is like all Manosphere stuff.

(00:24:50): It's so easy to get access to that stuff.

(00:24:54): And then once you get it, you start bathing in it and it becomes normalized.

(00:24:58): Yeah.

(00:25:00): No, I don't think we should underestimate it at all.

(00:25:02): I think that is a big component of what won the election for Trump supporters.

(00:25:07): I mean, I find it really interesting, right?

(00:25:09): Because we are supposed to be the quote unquote progressive party and they're the

(00:25:14): ones who managed to use technology to their advantage.

(00:25:18): Yes, yes.

(00:25:19): And so I don't,

(00:25:21): my kids are too young to really have like solo access to tablets or computers or

(00:25:26): anything like that.

(00:25:27): But I'm thinking about it more as my second grader is getting older.

(00:25:32): How do we, I don't even know how to ask the question.

(00:25:36): What do, Joanne?

(00:25:38): Tell me what to do about this because it's all toxic,

(00:25:42): but we don't want to be these controlling,

(00:25:44): overbearing parents.

(00:25:45): How do we balance that and somewhat protect them while encouraging critical thinking?

(00:25:52): Yeah, I mean, I think it is about, what does Devorah Heitner always say?

(00:26:00): Monitor or not.

(00:26:03): Oh, I can't remember.

(00:26:04): But in any case,

(00:26:05): we don't wanna control our kids' use because they're just gonna set up secret

(00:26:12): Snapchats or Instas or whatever they call it,

(00:26:16): right?

(00:26:16): And so it's all in the conversation that you're having outside of social media.

(00:26:25): And of course,

(00:26:26): as they're growing up,

(00:26:27): you're going to want to monitor a little bit what they're looking at,

(00:26:31): check their feeds,

(00:26:33): just, you know, explain, explain, explain, explain algorithms to them.

(00:26:38): And that, you know, the algorithms are basically picking up on what their insecurities are.

(00:26:44): So,

(00:26:44): you know,

(00:26:45): if they're,

(00:26:46): if they're,

(00:26:47): and this is a little off topic,

(00:26:48): but it's,

(00:26:49): it's the same principle,

(00:26:50): right?

(00:26:50): If they are worried about their skin and they,

(00:26:53): and they're looking at TikToks about their skin,

(00:26:57): algorithm is going to see that they are ripe for,

(00:27:00): advertisements that say you have all these flaws and here are all these ways to fix

(00:27:05): it right and same thing if men are look are watching stuff on loneliness or fitness

(00:27:10): or whatever about what it means to be a man they're going to be fed that and so we

(00:27:14): really want to make sure kids really understand that what they're seeing is not all

(00:27:20): of what's out there but it's what is being targeted to them and then I think you

(00:27:25): know

(00:27:27): As your kids get older, it's very, very hard to know what's going on.

(00:27:32): And I think we got lucky that my son is very, you know, he talks to us a lot.

(00:27:37): And so he has been telling us the kinds of videos that he sees on these platforms

(00:27:43): for a long time,

(00:27:44): which gave us the opportunity to have real conversations about that.

(00:27:51): And, you know, if he had,

(00:27:54): And he has said this is true,

(00:27:56): that he could have potentially gone the other way had he had different parents who

(00:28:03): didn't talk a lot about human rights and who weren't both therapists and who didn't

(00:28:11): hear what he was listening to and take that to task.

(00:28:18): in the least offensive ways we possibly could.

(00:28:21): And I do not say we were always successful,

(00:28:23): but we knew that it was crucial to kind of hear what he was saying,

(00:28:28): hear what he thought was funny about Trump,

(00:28:32): and then sort of give our point of view about why that might not be so funny.

(00:28:39): I think that's really helpful.

(00:28:40): You know, you saying that reminds me of this book I just started reading.

(00:28:45): It's by David Yeager.

(00:28:46): It's called 10 to 25.

(00:28:48): I haven't even finished it yet, but it's about motivating young people.

(00:28:53): And he has this really interesting story about like quit smoking campaigns and how

(00:28:59): until the mid 1990s,

(00:29:01): all of the CDC's smoking cessation campaigns

(00:29:05): actually increased smoking rates.

(00:29:07): And all of these campaigns were basically instructive.

(00:29:11): They were telling young people what to do.

(00:29:13): Don't smoke, don't smoke, don't smoke.

(00:29:14): Smoking is bad.

(00:29:16): And then they started that truth campaign that I think came to life when I was a teenager and

(00:29:24): where it was like teenagers protesting tobacco companies and they were framing not

(00:29:30): smoking as counterculture and as independent thinking and as something young people

(00:29:37): could do to push back against adults who were trying to force them to do something

(00:29:42): which was smoke and it was really successful and he argues that you know young

(00:29:47): people

(00:29:48): of course, want to feel independent and they want to feel like their opinions are valued.

(00:29:52): And so when we're just telling them what to do and what to think,

(00:29:56): they're more likely to rebel against that.

(00:29:57): And I'm not sure exactly how we can use that in talking to our kids about politics,

(00:30:03): but I think that insight might be helpful in just asking,

(00:30:07): like,

(00:30:07): how can I talk to my kid in a way where I am not being the overbearing,

(00:30:14): all controlling parent or other family figure?

(00:30:19): And it's right, we want to bring up good kids.

(00:30:21): And so when they come to us with these offensive,

(00:30:28): you know,

(00:30:28): what we consider offensive ideas about humanity,

(00:30:32): it's really hard not to scoff and not to,

(00:30:35): you know,

(00:30:35): feel like a bad parent and haven't I taught you anything?

(00:30:38): And what kind of person are you going to turn out to be?

(00:30:41): And your mind might go to all those places, but really like taking that deep breath

(00:30:46): really trying to empathize with them and where they might be getting this

(00:30:51): information and talking to them like they are somebody with the brain because they are,

(00:30:58): you know.

(00:30:58): I think,

(00:31:00): you know,

(00:31:00): you're going to get so much farther that way than just getting defensive and growling.

(00:31:08): So,

(00:31:09): you know,

(00:31:09): speaking about controlling our emotions,

(00:31:11): one of the things that you and I talked a bit about before the podcast is parents

(00:31:15): sort of projecting their own fears onto their kids.

(00:31:18): And what I'm seeing in my circle a lot,

(00:31:20): because my circle is almost like exclusively far leftist activists,

(00:31:26): is parents making wild predictions about what is going to happen in a Trump administration.

(00:31:34): And then under the guise of I'm informing my child,

(00:31:38): telling their children, you know, Trump voters voted to have you killed.

(00:31:43): There are going to be death camps and you're going to go.

(00:31:45): I think that's obviously not helpful.

(00:31:52): You know, I also think that it's really important for parents to hear that

(00:31:57): generally predicting the future and particularly predicting a harmful future is not

(00:32:02): good for anybody because none of us know what is going to happen.

(00:32:07): But can you talk about that a little bit?

(00:32:10): Yeah,

(00:32:11): I'm glad that we sort of circled back to this because I know you were asking before

(00:32:14): about what are some things that we can,

(00:32:16): that I've seen in my practice and what can we talk to kids about?

(00:32:19): Like I said, I think it's so important for parents to manage their own reactions constructively.

(00:32:26): and show kids how to focus on actionable responses rather than despair.

(00:32:33): Like you might say, I'm disappointed.

(00:32:35): You see I'm crying.

(00:32:37): But after a few days or a few weeks,

(00:32:40): I'm going to focus on ways that we can still make a difference in our community.

(00:32:45): Kids, especially kids in elementary school, they really need a focus on reassurance.

(00:32:53): you know,

(00:32:54): especially when the world feels uncertain,

(00:32:57): children need to be certain that they're cared for and loved,

(00:33:00): right?

(00:33:01): And,

(00:33:04): oh,

(00:33:04): you know,

(00:33:05): you were saying,

(00:33:06): we do not know what's gonna,

(00:33:08): what is gonna happen,

(00:33:09): all right?

(00:33:09): And so one of the things that I said to my daughter is that not everything a

(00:33:14): candidate promises will happen

(00:33:18): So while we need to worry and while we need to believe what people say,

(00:33:23): there isn't reason for panic right now.

(00:33:29): And for older kids,

(00:33:30): action can be so empowering,

(00:33:32): as they can help them find ways to feel empowered,

(00:33:39): like joining a local organization that supports the causes that they're passionate about.

(00:33:47): so that they have a place to put their negative feelings to positive action, right?

(00:33:52): Or,

(00:33:52): you know,

(00:33:52): maybe they want to start a human rights club at school or donate some of their

(00:33:57): allowance or get involved in local politics.

(00:34:00): Like there's so much that we really can and need to be doing.

(00:34:04): And so I think being,

(00:34:06): you know,

(00:34:08): the urgency around doing rather than the urgency around despair is what's important.

(00:34:15): I love it that you mentioned local politics in particular.

(00:34:17): This is something I've really been harping on with people is that we pay the least

(00:34:22): attention to local politics,

(00:34:24): but that's actually the stuff that is most likely to affect your daily life.

(00:34:28): It's local politicians who oversee your county jail,

(00:34:32): who oversee your school system,

(00:34:34): who oversee your police department.

(00:34:37): And you can have judges who are making decisions about abortion.

(00:34:42): Yeah,

(00:34:43): you can affect so much change at the local level and especially to my audience who

(00:34:49): are seeking restraining orders,

(00:34:51): seeking divorces,

(00:34:52): seeking child custody.

(00:34:54): it's all local judges who are often running unopposed.

(00:34:59): Third parties have a lot of great luck at the local level because no one pays attention.

(00:35:05): So I would just really encourage people to pay attention to what is happening with

(00:35:11): their local politics.

(00:35:13): And I would also,

(00:35:14): to piggyback on what you said about not operating from a place of panic and fear,

(00:35:20): I think sometimes panic can feel like activism and trying to convince people that

(00:35:25): something bad is going to happen can feel like activism because the thought process

(00:35:29): is if I convince someone that this is really,

(00:35:31): really,

(00:35:31): really bad,

(00:35:32): then they'll change somehow.

(00:35:36): But when you are operating from a place of panic, you actually become dangerous to other people.

(00:35:41): You know, when you think that the authorities are coming for you,

(00:35:45): You're more likely to turn in your neighbor.

(00:35:47): You're less likely to take a stand for other people.

(00:35:50): Yeah.

(00:35:53): And like you were pointing out,

(00:35:55): right,

(00:35:55): for some people,

(00:35:56): the authorities might really be coming for them imminently.

(00:36:00): And so their panicking is more, you know, is more reasonable.

(00:36:06): And yet bringing your children on board to that is not going to be is not going to be helpful.

(00:36:13): Well,

(00:36:13): and I think,

(00:36:14): you know,

(00:36:15): I think that we should,

(00:36:16): anybody who has any degree of privilege needs to be thinking about what they can do

(00:36:21): to provide immediate support to people in their community.

(00:36:25): You know,

(00:36:25): the immigrant that you're friends with now might be the time that they need to get

(00:36:29): their immigration paperwork in order.

(00:36:30): And maybe money is the main barrier.

(00:36:32): You know, maybe you can help them with that.

(00:36:35): Live in a red state and you can afford abortion medication, right?

(00:36:38): You can buy this provisional

(00:36:41): medication in case somebody you know needs it.

(00:36:44): Yeah.

(00:36:46): In terms of people who really do have a lot to fear from this administration,

(00:36:50): and I think the people I would most highlight are undocumented immigrants and

(00:36:56): immigrants who don't have any kind of permanent residency,

(00:37:01): as well as people who are currently under oversight by the criminal justice system,

(00:37:05): people who are on probation or parole.

(00:37:08): What do you recommend for supporting their kids?

(00:37:11): Because, you know, they are going to have to have really hard conversations.

(00:37:18): You know,

(00:37:18): I don't think it's that different than what we're telling any kids,

(00:37:24): right,

(00:37:24): in terms of balancing the darkness with hope.

(00:37:31): but also needing to be very realistic about their situation,

(00:37:35): that this could happen,

(00:37:37): but we are gonna stand together every step of the way.

(00:37:40): We are going to fight, we are going to remain a community.

(00:37:45): I mean, I don't know that I'm so much in a position to be giving an undocumented worker

(00:37:59): advice.

(00:37:59): And I feel like so many of them know,

(00:38:02): like have had to deal with racism and fear their whole lives and that they probably

(00:38:12): know better than I do about how to talk to their kids.

(00:38:17): Part of the challenge is that

(00:38:20): Different people are gonna have to have different conversations.

(00:38:24): What I would recommend to everyone,

(00:38:26): regardless of the conversations that you are having is no matter what your concern is,

(00:38:32): there is already going to be an organization doing good work on those concerns.

(00:38:38): So try to connect with those organizations,

(00:38:42): especially connect with organizations who are led by the people most affected by

(00:38:46): the issue.

(00:38:47): So white led anti-racist organizations are a shit show.

(00:38:52): You wanna go with organizations led by non-white people.

(00:38:56): In my state, for example,

(00:38:58): There's an organization called the Georgia Latino Alliance for Human Rights,

(00:39:01): and they have done all kinds of work on immigration human rights.

(00:39:05): And there are similar organizations across the country,

(00:39:09): probably across the world,

(00:39:10): I don't know,

(00:39:12): that you can hook up with and you can volunteer,

(00:39:14): you can donate money.

(00:39:15): If you need help, you can call hotlines and get resources from these organizations.

(00:39:20): I think now is a good time for people to familiarize themselves with what resources

(00:39:24): are out there.

(00:39:26): And see what the people running those organizations have to teach them.

(00:39:31): Because so often in activism,

(00:39:33): we end up with like,

(00:39:34): you know,

(00:39:34): 30 people doing 30 different things instead of coming together to support a cause

(00:39:40): that the experts are already working on.

(00:39:42): Yeah, that's something I've been saying, like pick your issue.

(00:39:47): Pick one issue, and this isn't the time to be reinventing the wheel.

(00:39:51): There are really strong organizations out there that need your resources,

(00:39:56): that need your hands,

(00:39:57): you need your boots on the ground.

(00:40:00): Another thing to that point,

(00:40:01): and this isn't much relevant to talking to kids,

(00:40:03): but I think it's just good activist advice,

(00:40:06): is I've been an activist for my whole life and have done what I can on these issues,

(00:40:12): and I'm not the best person or the greatest person,

(00:40:14): but I try.

(00:40:16): And what I found the morning after the election is I suddenly felt a lot of

(00:40:21): pressure to like advertise that activism to make sure that the people around me

(00:40:25): knew that I was doing enough.

(00:40:27): And I remember that feeling in 2016, too, of the pressure to perform your activism.

(00:40:34): So I would just encourage people to check that impulse to focus on doing the next

(00:40:40): best thing ahead of them rather than making sure people know they're doing it.

(00:40:45): And also to check the impulse to police what other people are doing.

(00:40:49): I think that that is only detrimental to assess whether someone is a good enough activist.

(00:40:55): It's only detrimental to

(00:40:58): tell other people they're not doing enough to change the world or what they should be doing.

(00:41:02): Because none of us really know what other people are doing or what their situation is.

(00:41:06): Right.

(00:41:07): Right.

(00:41:09): And I think that's part of what this administration wants, right?

(00:41:14): It's the hope that we will feel hopeless and turn on each other.

(00:41:18): And we can't let that happen.

(00:41:24): Yeah.

(00:41:24): Yeah.

(00:41:24): I saw this just bonkers conversation in an activist group where someone posted a

(00:41:30): pretty innocuous question about like what the safest investments would be in a

(00:41:37): Trump administration.

(00:41:38): And then some guy responded and was like, well, the banks are going to crash.

(00:41:43): The stock market is going to crash.

(00:41:44): The housing market is going to crash and there won't be money anyway.

(00:41:47): So it doesn't matter.

(00:41:49): And then like 400 people joined in to agree that nothing we do matters because

(00:41:56): everything is going to end all on the same day.

(00:41:59): And there were a few people disagreeing who were just getting trounced and told

(00:42:05): what awful people they are.

(00:42:06): It was bizarre.

(00:42:09): It was totally dystopian.

(00:42:11): And it's exactly what the right wing wants.

(00:42:14): Right, exactly.

(00:42:15): And it's the opposite of what you're saying is like the people who

(00:42:19): are saying you're doing, you're not doing enough.

(00:42:21): They're the people are like, why are you even bothering?

(00:42:23): Yeah.

(00:42:25): And of course we have to bother, right?

(00:42:27): This is, you know, of course we have to believe, right?

(00:42:30): The,

(00:42:30): I'm not willing to panic,

(00:42:32): but I'm not willing to ignore the,

(00:42:34): the,

(00:42:35): you know,

(00:42:35): promises of Trump advance and project 2025,

(00:42:40): because that is how authoritarian totalitarian regimes are born by people that just

(00:42:46): hope

(00:42:46): that nothing bad will really come of it.

(00:42:50): Well, and I think, you know, I am not willing to ignore my obligation to help other people.

(00:42:59): I'm not willing to give up on my own life and my own kids' lives either.

(00:43:05): I think even on the worst times in history,

(00:43:09): some people survived and they came together and rebuilt and built something better.

(00:43:13): And even if that's what we're heading for,

(00:43:15): there have to be some of us who are going to be there and resist and build

(00:43:19): something better.

(00:43:20): And I also think that there is a genuine possibility that this becomes a massive

(00:43:26): lesson for people.

(00:43:28): and an opportunity to really truly rebuild because I do think that some people

(00:43:34): voted for Trump as a signal that they've just had it with everything about our system.

(00:43:40): And we'll see, we'll see what comes of it.

(00:43:43): I don't pretend that I know what's gonna happen.

(00:43:46): And I think that anybody who is telling you with certainty that they know what's

(00:43:50): gonna happen is someone who's not trustworthy.

(00:43:52): Right.

(00:43:54): I mean, the one thing that we do know

(00:43:56): will happen is that it will embolden misogynists and racists, right?

(00:44:01): And we're already seeing that.

(00:44:03): And so I think that's where we start.

(00:44:06): Yeah, yeah.

(00:44:09): And,

(00:44:09): you know,

(00:44:09): I just can't help but saying that one of the best ways that women can protect

(00:44:15): themselves from misogyny is by not getting into relationships with misogynists.

(00:44:20): Men have far fewer opportunities to control women when those women don't have their kids.

(00:44:26): So I think we really,

(00:44:28): really need to buckle down on talking to our daughters about relationships and not

(00:44:33): romanticizing romance,

(00:44:35): marriage,

(00:44:36): men,

(00:44:36): flowers,

(00:44:37): all of it.

(00:44:38): Yeah.

(00:44:39): I mean, I have a big section in my book about that, right?

(00:44:41): About not emphasizing relationships for girls in ways that we really don't for boys,

(00:44:51): because then they grow up feeling like they

(00:44:54): feeling pressured to be in relationships with boys who have not spent their whole

(00:44:59): life fantasizing about this.

(00:45:01): And like the inequality is inborn from the second they get in relationship with that person.

(00:45:09): Yeah,

(00:45:09): that's I mean,

(00:45:10): that's totally the dynamic is that relationships benefit men at women's expense,

(00:45:16): but women are the ones who are taught to value relationships and men are the ones

(00:45:20): taught to devalue relationships.

(00:45:22): So men, of course, devalue their partners.

(00:45:25): and pretend that they're doing nothing and mistreat them.

(00:45:27): And it's just,

(00:45:28): I mean,

(00:45:28): it's this terrible cycle that I know both you and I have talked a lot about,

(00:45:32): but I,

(00:45:33): we've got to hunker down and really,

(00:45:35): really stop doing this to our daughters with princess stuff and the wedding stuff

(00:45:39): and the very- Right,

(00:45:41): all the benevolent sexism stuff that really says in heterosexual romantic relationships,

(00:45:47): women are passive,

(00:45:49): men are active,

(00:45:50): even though,

(00:45:51): you know,

(00:45:51): women are doing everything,

(00:45:52): but-

(00:45:54): Like they are supposed to be taking this passive role and waiting around and hoping.

(00:45:59): And yeah, it becomes an unbalanced, ugly, ugly situation.

(00:46:06): Yeah, I was.

(00:46:07): So the same kid in my family who's a supporter yesterday said something to me like,

(00:46:12): you know,

(00:46:13): why would you ever be unhappy?

(00:46:15): You're married.

(00:46:16): And I just like, you know, internally fell to the ground screaming and stabbing myself.

(00:46:24): But I, you know, I was like, well, yeah, like I'm happily married.

(00:46:27): And then I finally composed myself and I said,

(00:46:29): can you think of anybody else who has a marriage that you want,

(00:46:32): like anybody else in the whole world?

(00:46:34): And she was like, no.

(00:46:35): And I was like, so maybe it's not that I'm married.

(00:46:38): That's the reason I'm happy.

(00:46:40): And, you know, she sort of rolled her eyes and scoffed and got back on her phone.

(00:46:43): So I don't know how much.

(00:46:45): got in i think these things are looks like slowly but surely like that was a great

(00:46:50): intervention right and it's not completely lost and she's not going to let you know

(00:46:54): if she's in the stage of scoffing and going back on her phone she's not going to

(00:46:57): let you know what impact you're having that's why i always say we're playing the

(00:47:01): long game and to not give up but um yeah i mean it's the whole like happy marriages

(00:47:08): make people happy marriage doesn't make people happy

(00:47:12): Yeah, yeah, exactly.

(00:47:14): And most marriages aren't happy.

(00:47:15): Like, just say it, just put it on a sticky note and say it to them as much as possible.

(00:47:21): And it makes me just bonkers that we still are not explicit with girls about this.

(00:47:30): Yeah,

(00:47:30): I think we need to be really,

(00:47:31): I mean,

(00:47:32): we're on a different topic now,

(00:47:33): but I think we do need to be really explicit about what a good relationship looks like.

(00:47:38): It's not one conversation,

(00:47:40): but it's lots of conversations and it's the whole bell hooks,

(00:47:44): love is a verb,

(00:47:46): right?

(00:47:46): Because we do them no favors when we make it seem like it's this intangible,

(00:47:55): romantic sort of thing that just happens and makes you feel a certain way.

(00:48:01): It's like, no, somebody who says they care, but doesn't behave like they care, that is not love.

(00:48:07): Right.

(00:48:09): So,

(00:48:09): OK,

(00:48:09): talk to me about how to actually have those conversations,

(00:48:11): because my kids are still at the age where they think I'm the greatest thing ever,

(00:48:16): and I can just be instructive with them.

(00:48:18): Like, I tell them something, they believe it.

(00:48:22): But I know that's not always going to be the case,

(00:48:24): and it's certainly not the case with the teenagers I interact with.

(00:48:29): So how do we teach kids?

(00:48:32): Like, how do we help them learn this?

(00:48:38): again,

(00:48:39): it's just through long,

(00:48:40): you know,

(00:48:41): through conversations that you're having over time,

(00:48:47): right?

(00:48:47): About what a good relationship looks like, what kindness looks like.

(00:48:50): For people who are not in good relationships,

(00:48:53): either actively or who are divorced from their children's parents,

(00:48:58): you know,

(00:48:59): that's really hard.

(00:49:00): Yeah.

(00:49:01): I mean, I think that, well, right.

(00:49:04): It's,

(00:49:06): I was going to say,

(00:49:07): right,

(00:49:08): that we,

(00:49:12): that we can talk about maybe why the relationship was bad,

(00:49:15): but if it is your child's parent,

(00:49:17): you probably cannot do that.

(00:49:19): And I would not suggest you do that until they're much older.

(00:49:23): Right.

(00:49:23): But I think we can suggest that they pay attention to what matters.

(00:49:29): Right.

(00:49:30): Like,

(00:49:30): And we can give our own examples, right?

(00:49:32): He gets my humor.

(00:49:34): He memorizes how much milk I take in my coffee.

(00:49:37): They put their phone away to listen to what's upsetting me.

(00:49:44): Or,

(00:49:44): you know,

(00:49:44): I was once in this relationship with somebody who was really intimidated by my

(00:49:48): personal growth and that wasn't going to be okay because I really need someone who

(00:49:51): helps me grow.

(00:49:53): You know, and then you can explore with them what matters to them.

(00:49:57): And are they getting that from their partner?

(00:50:00): Or is their partner willing to be patient because they have to work at the school

(00:50:07): newspaper every weekend?

(00:50:09): Or are they going to make them feel guilty for having a job they really love?

(00:50:15): You know,

(00:50:16): one of the things that I discussed,

(00:50:19): and I think I talk about it in the book too,

(00:50:21): with my daughter that I felt was really important.

(00:50:23): I was kind of like waiting for the moment.

(00:50:26): was the whole dynamic of the unavailable guy,

(00:50:33): the unavailable man,

(00:50:35): and how women are so attracted to that.

(00:50:39): So I think the story was something like, it came up because she said something like,

(00:50:49): that cats gravitate to those who give them the least attention.

(00:50:52): And I was like, oh, now's my moment.

(00:50:55): And so I said, I like people.

(00:50:58): And she looked at me and sort of said, no, I like people who like me the most.

(00:51:03): And I was like, oh, that's amazing.

(00:51:05): That's how it should be, you know?

(00:51:08): And then I pulled out that old Groucho Marx quote.

(00:51:11): I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member or some version of that.

(00:51:18): to explain how low self-esteem can cause us to reject people who like us

(00:51:23): romantically and instead lead us to want people who aren't capable of answering our

(00:51:32): emotional needs.

(00:51:33): You know, and I asked her why she thought that would be.

(00:51:35): And she was so insightful.

(00:51:39): I think she said something like, some people feel powerful when they can fix other people.

(00:51:46): And, you know, then I added my two cents.

(00:51:48): I was like, yeah, that's exactly it.

(00:51:50): And also,

(00:51:51): you know,

(00:51:51): it makes them feel special if they're the one who this unavailable person finally

(00:51:57): gives his heart to.

(00:51:58): You know,

(00:51:58): and so we're just having these conversations over time with our kids about what bad

(00:52:04): relationships look like and what they can grow out of.

(00:52:10): I think it can be really subtle.

(00:52:13): So I have a 14 year old sister who often asks me for relationship advice and she

(00:52:19): just broke up with her first boyfriend a couple of months ago.

(00:52:22): She's onto her next boyfriend already.

(00:52:24): So it's, it's no great tragedy.

(00:52:26): Um,

(00:52:27): but she,

(00:52:28): she like hopped in the car with me one day and she was like,

(00:52:30): well,

(00:52:30): I broke up with my boyfriend.

(00:52:31): And I was like, that's great news.

(00:52:33): I'm so glad that you, you know, got rid of something that wasn't working for you.

(00:52:38): And she seemed like really taken aback for a second.

(00:52:41): And then she seemed really happy and then just proceeded to tell me like why she

(00:52:45): broke up with him.

(00:52:47): And then I like circled back and I was like, okay, why did you seem happy that I said that?

(00:52:52): And she was like, because everyone else has been like, oh no, he's such a nice guy.

(00:52:57): Are you sure he doesn't deserve another chance?

(00:53:01): And then assumed that like,

(00:53:02): she was really upset and had been sort of shaping it such that like,

(00:53:06): she should be upset.

(00:53:08): So,

(00:53:09): you know,

(00:53:09): I have many moments with her where I'm like,

(00:53:12): I missed an opportunity,

(00:53:13): but that was one where I was like,

(00:53:14): yeah,

(00:53:14): I really like,

(00:53:15): I got it right there.

(00:53:17): You nailed it.

(00:53:18): I mean, you get right.

(00:53:19): You made her feel like her choice was meaningful,

(00:53:23): that she has power to make these choices rather than just sort of right,

(00:53:28): like go into all of the empathy of how sad and horrible it is when two people break up.

(00:53:33): No, sometimes it's a really happy occasion.

(00:53:37): Yeah.

(00:53:37): And it can be both, right?

(00:53:39): I'm sure like it's a loss in many ways, but I'm sure she also made a good decision.

(00:53:44): Yeah.

(00:53:44): Well,

(00:53:44): and I started like a couple of years ago congratulating women generally when they

(00:53:49): told me they were getting divorces.

(00:53:51): And, you know, at first I thought I was being just sort of like cheeky and funny.

(00:53:57): But after a couple of years of doing it,

(00:53:59): it has only gotten positive responses of people saying,

(00:54:02): oh,

(00:54:02): like you really understand that.

(00:54:06): Especially because it's usually the women that are making the decision to leave.

(00:54:11): So congratulations kind of are in order that they finally were able to listen to themselves.

(00:54:17): exactly exactly so like we should we should be proud of our daughters when they

(00:54:23): leave something behind and and none of this messaging about like oh well you know

(00:54:28): you might not get another chance with such a nice guy and you know you can't take

(00:54:33): that decision back right anybody who's ever like dealt with men knows that like

(00:54:38): they always come back

(00:54:40): Like you usually can't get rid of that.

(00:54:42): It is so true.

(00:54:43): And I think,

(00:54:44): you know,

(00:54:46): like what you were saying,

(00:54:47): we were so quick to support dependency and girls.

(00:54:51): Right.

(00:54:52): And, you know, if, if, and that's what we're doing when we're like, oh, that's awful.

(00:54:57): I'm so sorry.

(00:54:57): You know, like, no, let's hear how they feel about it first.

(00:55:01): What went into their decision or what part,

(00:55:04): even if it was the boy that made the decision,

(00:55:07): what helped,

(00:55:09): What parts of that decision do they think are actually good?

(00:55:12): What's a relief?

(00:55:14): You know,

(00:55:14): and so that we're showing,

(00:55:16): we are showing them that we have confidence in their ability to be independent,

(00:55:21): to find a better relationship if that's what they want.

(00:55:26): Yeah.

(00:55:27): Well,

(00:55:27): and so we're getting like kind of into the generally talking to girls about sexism

(00:55:33): and relationships.

(00:55:34): And I think some listeners might be like, wait, but this was supposed to be about Donald Trump.

(00:55:38): But I think that we really need to seize these opportunities to help our kids

(00:55:44): understand the connection between their personal lives and their political lives.

(00:55:51): You know, I have told kids I know, you know,

(00:55:55): I'm worried about your ability to get birth control if Donald Trump gets elected.

(00:56:00): You know,

(00:56:00): one of the things that I've been working on with my Republican readers is,

(00:56:05): well,

(00:56:05): you hate your husband and you want to leave.

(00:56:08): And,

(00:56:08): you know,

(00:56:09): a Trump administration wants to do everything they can to make it harder for you to leave.

(00:56:14): We have to help people understand that what seems like an individual personal problem

(00:56:20): is often a cultural problem.

(00:56:22): And cultural problems manufacture political problems.

(00:56:25): And there's a lot we can do about those.

(00:56:28): Right.

(00:56:28): And in the same vein,

(00:56:30): I've talked to my kids about the mental and emotional load when they've seen me

(00:56:37): explode or get upset or fight with my husband.

(00:56:42): I have said, this is a personal problem.

(00:56:44): This is between us.

(00:56:45): And yet,

(00:56:46): it's coming from the political sphere, right?

(00:56:48): There's not enough support for women,

(00:56:51): for childcare,

(00:56:52): and I want them to know that the personal is political.

(00:56:57): Yeah, I really...

(00:56:59): And the thing that I'm constantly struck by is especially,

(00:57:02): you know,

(00:57:03): I haven't raised teenagers yet,

(00:57:05): but with my young children,

(00:57:07): I am amazed how they basically arrive in the world as radicals and we kind of beat

(00:57:12): it out of them.

(00:57:14): You know,

(00:57:14): my eight year old is very much a prison abolitionist who thinks that no one should

(00:57:19): ever go to prison because it's just too awful for anyone.

(00:57:23): And,

(00:57:24): you know,

(00:57:24): I think just presenting them with the facts and encouraging empathy is often all it takes.

(00:57:33): What we're,

(00:57:34): what we really find ourselves doing a lot is like undoing the indoctrination that

(00:57:37): we or society have already done.

(00:57:40): Yeah, that's such an interesting point.

(00:57:44): I think about that a lot of times in terms of like vegetarianism.

(00:57:48): where I have one kid who's a vegetarian and one kid who is a total meat eater,

(00:57:54): like,

(00:57:55): you know,

(00:57:55): a carnivore.

(00:57:56): And yes, well, that's only the beginning of all the eating stuff, but we don't have to go there.

(00:58:01): And so- I know what that's like.

(00:58:07): And,

(00:58:08): you know,

(00:58:08): but he was the same way when he was little,

(00:58:11): when he found out it was animals that we were eating,

(00:58:14): right?

(00:58:14): He was horrified.

(00:58:16): And,

(00:58:16): you know,

(00:58:17): but I could because a very picky eater and I could not figure out how to get

(00:58:22): protein in him.

(00:58:22): He wouldn't eat beans.

(00:58:24): He wouldn't eat tofu.

(00:58:25): Right.

(00:58:25): And so it was like I had to sort of be like,

(00:58:28): well,

(00:58:28): you know,

(00:58:30): we eat,

(00:58:33): you know,

(00:58:33): grass fed,

(00:58:34): blah,

(00:58:35): blah,

(00:58:35): blah.

(00:58:35): You know, and it's just like such bullshit.

(00:58:37): And it's just right sort of de-radicalizing him.

(00:58:42): Yeah, it's so we have kind of a similar situation in our family.

(00:58:46): We are vegetarians.

(00:58:48): My oldest is a diehard vegan animal rights activist.

(00:58:53): And, you know, she's often asking me, like, why aren't you vegan?

(00:58:58): And the answer is really because that's not the cause that I've chosen to,

(00:59:04): like,

(00:59:04): throw my full self into.

(00:59:06): And I only have so much I can do.

(00:59:08): And,

(00:59:09): you know,

(00:59:10): I think it's sometimes useful for us to admit,

(00:59:12): like,

(00:59:13): it's because I'm not doing enough for that cause.

(00:59:15): It's because I'm, you know, I'm not.

(00:59:17): Because I love cheese.

(00:59:19): Yeah.

(00:59:20): And I love cheese and I can't justify it.

(00:59:23): And I admit that that may be a moral failing.

(00:59:27): But, you know, we live in a broken world and we're broken people who make it up.

(00:59:33): And,

(00:59:33): you know,

(00:59:36): we can't we can't be perfect and we can't,

(00:59:38): you know,

(00:59:38): for the most of us are doing the best we can or the best we can at least moment to moment.

(00:59:45): Yeah.

(00:59:45): And we just have to encourage ourselves to do better and

(00:59:49): Encourage others to do better too.

(00:59:52): So on the point of perfectionism, I read this really interesting meme a couple of days ago.

(00:59:59): And I won't get it as punchy as the meme was,

(01:00:02): but it was something about how people who are raised in very punitive,

(01:00:07): very conservative religious cultures learn this black and white thinking.

(01:00:12): And then they grow up and they often abandon the religion and they join leftist politics,

(01:00:16): but they still have the black and white thinking.

(01:00:19): of, you know, if you don't have everything right, then you're bad.

(01:00:22): If you're not

(01:00:23): activism right, you're bad.

(01:00:26): And I think in reflecting on that, I think that's true from what I have seen with other people.

(01:00:32): And like,

(01:00:32): I want to be clear when I say not having everything right,

(01:00:34): I don't mean allowing racists into your social justice group.

(01:00:38): I mean, not knowing everything, not knowing what you're supposed to think and do.

(01:00:42): And I think that we need to make a lot of space in our conversations with our kids

(01:00:46): for getting things wrong and fixing it,

(01:00:49): both just in our parenting,

(01:00:51): but also in our talking about

(01:00:53): activism so that they then have tolerance for that when they encounter other flawed

(01:00:58): people who are doing the best they can.

(01:01:01): Yeah.

(01:01:02): And I think you see in,

(01:01:05): in kids who are in,

(01:01:09): in kids who are learning about,

(01:01:11): you know,

(01:01:12): maybe in school,

(01:01:12): they're learning a lot of social justice,

(01:01:14): right?

(01:01:15): It's the parents that end up getting it quote unquote wrong.

(01:01:20): right?

(01:01:20): But they're just being human or they're just,

(01:01:22): and they have learned these very,

(01:01:23): you know,

(01:01:23): it's before this sort of abstract thinking of adulthood really kicks in,

(01:01:29): right?

(01:01:30): Kids can be,

(01:01:30): you can see it in kids,

(01:01:32): they can be really rigid about what's right and what's wrong and sort of taking

(01:01:35): that into adulthood,

(01:01:37): which we are seeing,

(01:01:39): you know,

(01:01:39): on the far right and the far left is very destructive.

(01:01:44): Yeah.

(01:01:45): Yeah.

(01:01:45): I mean, so we're like, you know, on the gentle, emotionally intelligent

(01:01:50): parenting bandwagon mostly and I'll say to people things like you know we don't

(01:01:56): believe in punishing our kids or we don't believe in yelling at our kids and I

(01:02:00): swear my my daughter will materialize out of nowhere and be like well actually in

(01:02:06): May of 2022 you yelled at me and you made me cry and it was punitive so that's

(01:02:13): false and let me pull out the ledger I swear if she has one

(01:02:23): So it's, it's, it's wild raising kids, but that's the whole ride.

(01:02:29): Yeah.

(01:02:30): You really realize how much you don't know.

(01:02:33): Yeah.

(01:02:33): And, and I think that a little humility is good at this political moment.

(01:02:39): You know, we don't know.

(01:02:40): And not knowing what's going to happen is scary, but it's also the truth.

(01:02:47): And I think it's better to say, we don't know rather than to make,

(01:02:51): decisive proclamations about all the terrible things that are going to happen.

(01:02:55): Also,

(01:02:55): like,

(01:02:56): I would just really encourage everybody to turn off the news and especially stop

(01:03:00): reading pundits who claim to know what's going to happen.

(01:03:04): It's wild how wrong these people constantly are.

(01:03:07): And yet they still have a platform that they use to scare people about what's happening next.

(01:03:13): Right.

(01:03:15): And, you know, if we are in a state of panic, we are going to be much less afraid.

(01:03:21): We are going to feel like if despair overtakes hope, then we're really in trouble.

(01:03:31): So I think that's where we need to leave it is that as long as we are alive, there is hope.

(01:03:38): As long as we leave people alive after us, there is hope.

(01:03:42): Things change and we need to be a part of changing them by supporting our kids to

(01:03:48): see things for what they are and for what they could be.