[00:00:28] Chris Carr: Hello everybody and welcome to Espresso Martini. Today we have another jam-packed episode. Before we kind of go into what we're going to be talking about, Matt, how are you doing? [00:00:38] Matt Fulton: Oh, you know, you know, I'm trying to sort of resist the lure of slipping into some, like, twilight fugue state for a good short while. [00:00:49] But, um, other than that, I'm good. Chris, how are you? [00:00:52] Chris Carr: Well, yeah, I don't know what the word is to describe it. I'm lucky obviously, cause, uh, I'm this side of the Atlantic, but watching events kind of going on are quite, uh, concerning. So I think I'm just in a permanently concerned state of mind at the moment. [00:01:06] And just doing my best to stay productive about it rather than kind of letting it kind of take you off into a depressive state or something. So I'm just trying my best to look after my personal health, etc. So yeah, yeah. [00:01:20] Matt Fulton: Very important. Very important to go touch grass sometimes. [00:01:22] Chris Carr: Yeah, indeed, indeed. I had a lovely walk this morning, actually, before this that really did me a lot of good. [00:01:28] So, uh, yeah. So, good advice to everybody, actually. Just make sure you're looking after yourselves because, uh, you know, there's no point letting world events make you ill. Uh, it really isn't worth it. So, uh, you know, so, uh, stay out, uh, stay healthy out there. So, um, on today's podcast, uh, we will be looking at how the Potomac air crash shines a light on doomsday plans. [00:01:50] So a nice cheery start there. Then we'll be looking at Trump's planned purge of the FBI. Then we've got Russia reportedly refusing Assad’s extradition to Syria. And then we'll be looking at the fears of Iran seeking to build a new nuclear weapon. So yes, we definitely have a, quite a heavy-going episode going forward. [00:02:10] Um, Yeah, so, uh, make sure you get yourself a, uh, a nice drink. I'm having a nice latte. Um, so yeah, don't necessarily turn to alcohol, turn to something kind of, something, whatever your kind of comfort. There is just, there [00:02:23] Matt Fulton: is just coffee in here. I swear. Yeah. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 [00:02:26] Chris Carr: Which is so we'll, we'll move on to the, uh, the midair collision, um, which was obviously a horrific turn of events that happened on the, was that the 30th? [00:02:37] Wasn't it? So it was, uh, it [00:02:38] Matt Fulton: was about a week ago. Yeah, it was, it was, it was last Wednesday. [00:02:42] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah. Last Wednesday. So Matt, I'll hand this one over to you. [00:02:45] Matt Fulton: Yeah. So, um, there's a really great article, um, by Joseph Trevithick in the, in the war zone that details, um, some of the, uh, details behind the. The unit that was involved in this. [00:02:55] So, uh, the crew of the U.S. Army Black Hawk, um, involved in last week's midair collision over the Potomac River with American Airlines Flight 5342, killing all 67 aboard. Both aircraft were conducting a training exercise for their unit's little-known continuity of government mission. Part of the 12th Aviation Battalion stationed at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, the unit plays a key role in emergency government evacuation scenarios tasked with transporting senior officials and lawmakers from sites like the White House and the Pentagon to secure locations such as Camp David, Mount Weather, and Raven Rock in the event of a crisis. [00:03:30] Uh, this mission is not widely publicized, but remains a crucial component of national security. Uh, other military units with COG responsibilities include the U.S. Air Force's 1st Helicopter Squadron and Marine Helicopter Squadron 1, or HMX-1, uh, which primarily transports the president, but would also respond in a crisis. [00:03:48] Civilian agencies, such as the U.S. Park Police, also contribute to emergency airlift operations. The incident raises questions about airspace safety around Washington. One of the most monitored and restricted flight zones in the country. Military must now assess the potential changes to training protocols while ensuring readiness for high risk evacuation scenarios. [00:04:07] Chris, what'd you think about this one? [00:04:08] Chris Carr: Well, God, what a disaster this was. I mean, like everybody, I was deeply shocked and saddened to hear about this crash and I could not really think of anything worse than being moments away from landing and having this happen. You know, I always, um, Takeoff and landing are probably the most dangerous phases of flying. [00:04:26] And, um, so this sort of collision, which is what it looks like between the, you know, with the military helicopters are flying into the path of the plane, you know, it was appalling. Um, so with regards to military helicopters, um, And there's, uh, basically these kind of training missions are sort Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 3 of standard stuff, really, because the helicopter pilots, especially military ones, need to be able to fly through controlled airspace. [00:04:50] You know, it's essential stuff, really, being able to sort of work with other air traffic, especially, um, if there is this sort of doomsday scenario. So the thing about this this morning is, what is the protocol for other aircraft? Should we, you know, be seven minutes away from a nuclear attack on the, on the, capital and you've got to get VIPs out, what happens? [00:05:08] Because there'll be a lot of air traffic kind of floating about still. Um, do they land? Do they stay as they are? What do they do? I don't know. But, um, that intrigued me. Um, but yeah, in the UK we also have like RAF helicopters sort of doing a similar-ish thing along the River Thames, at least twice a week. [00:05:25] They tend to sort of fly through London following the Thames. Um, and again, those helicopter pilots are training to fly in controlled airspace because obviously London is controlled airspace. They tend to do that later in the evening. Um, usually about 11, 11 PM to sort of 1 AM, which is, I'm assuming when air traffic is sort of at a lesser level, um, in London. [00:05:49] So yeah, it's sort of interesting that they do that. Um, then yeah, I was, that made me wonder about what's the UK's kind of doomsday scenario. And I couldn't really find much information about what our actual doomsday scenario is. So I apologize to listeners because I was hoping to have some sort of, uh, background on that. [00:06:06] Better idea of what happens, but, um, what I have discovered is the Ministry of Defence have a bunker called PINDAR, P-I-N-D-A-R, which can hold up to 400 personnel and it provides protection against conventional bombing, sabotage, biological and chemical attack, flooding, and the effects of blast radiation and electronic, uh, sorry, and also it protects against electromagnetic pulses. [00:06:31] But it will not survive a direct hit or a very near miss by nuclear weapons. So this bunker has sort of its limitations. Um, it is directly connected to Downing Street and the Cabinet Office via special tunnel PINDAR has two floors. The lower floor contains the Ministry of Defence Joint Operations Center. [00:06:51] And then the upper floor consists of gov government emergency rooms comprising the prime minister, secretary of state, the cabinet secretary, and some permanent secretaries. Um, and then you've also got the, an element of the Joint Intelligence Organisation, and then you've got sort of telecommunications, uh, center as well, which is, uh, known as C- O-M-C-E-N, which is Cabinet Office communication center. [00:07:13] So that's where. In London, should something happen, most members of, um, of senior, you know, senior political Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 4 leadership are going to go in there. Um, so yeah, uh, but with that terrible accident in D.C., it was 67 people killed. And as I was saying, it kind of appears the helicopter flew into the path of the airliner that was landing. [00:07:33] Obviously while that, how that happened and why that happened is still being investigated. Um, But from my understanding, the helicopter pilots were challenged twice and they took responsibility for something known as visual separation, which is where they claim they can see where the aircraft in question is, and they will maintain distance away from it. [00:07:53] And it sounds like that they may have got confused about which aircraft they were looking at. But again, that's still kind of unconfirmed at this point. The other thing that was interesting as well, there's been, um, Reports of near misses before at the airport, uh, Ronald Reagan airport. Um, and so there's a, there's a helicopter corridor, which is known as route four. [00:08:15] It allows helicopters to fly as low as 200 feet in that corridor. And it's only got, um, kind of a 15-foot kind of gap between, um, the, the corridor for airplanes. And for helicopters, which is quite frankly crazy, uh, usually have a few hundred feet gap. So the way air air control spaces work is, is basically based on height. [00:08:41] Um, so you had these sort of areas that you can operate at certain heights. So slow moving aircraft will be restricted on how high or low they can go near an airport, but having, having aircraft flying across what would be a runway, um, You know, that's a recipe for disaster and sadly that's what's happened. [00:08:59] So, yeah, I mean, Matt, uh, obviously I've sort of taken it a little bit away from what the article's about, but, uh, what were your thoughts on this, this terrible event? [00:09:07] Matt Fulton: Well, that's, um, it's really crowded airspace there along the Potomac. You know, it's, uh, as you said, you know, DC is one of the most, um, uh, closely controlled and monitored sections of airspace, um, in the world. [00:09:20] The whole area around the city, uh. Air traffic's allowed in to some extent, you know, like commercial aviation coming into, um, DCA, Reagan National and, um, Dulles, uh, you have to have a reason to be there. You have to identify yourself on radio, remain on radio. Um, there are, uh, none of this is, is classified. [00:09:39] It's all on, it's, it's accessible to anybody with Google and enough time on their hands. Um, there's, uh, uh, This, this army, uh, aviation unit, um, the, the, the battalion, the 12th, um, Aviation Battalion sits under the, uh, Joint Task Force - National Capital Region, which is itself under US Northern Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 5 Command. Um, and that's sort of a joint, um, a joint headquarters for, uh, with all the service branches. [00:10:08] So the, um, uh, the Army, the Navy, uh, the Air Force, the Marines, um, Coast Guard have some presence there too. Um, and, uh, yeah, there's a few different, um, aviation units around DC that handle colony of government. So the army is 12th Aviation Battalion. Um, the, uh, Air Force has the first helicopter squadron. [00:10:28] They're at joint base Andrews. Um, uh, customs and border protection also has some aircraft in, um, Manassas. Uh, there's a, uh, squadron under, um, NORAD, uh, that is at, uh, joint base Anacostia bowling, which is right along the Potomac, essentially like This collision happened like kind of directly in front of, um, that, that, that base, uh, NORAD has a squadron, um, there that operates something called the Joint Air Defense, uh, Operations Center. [00:10:59] Um, and, uh, they oversee a, uh, uh, collection of, um, six, uh, air defense batteries that are stationed at, uh, Different locations in and around D.C. I'm not, I won't say exactly where they are, um, on the air, uh, when, when we were walking around D.C. In, in November, I pointed out, um, one of them to you as we were walking around, and it's, if you didn't know it was up there as you walk past, you would never know that it was there, um, that's been present since, uh, shortly after 9 11 was when they put, um, Uh, those in, but, uh, yeah, so this crew on the, uh, H-60, um, Black Hawk was on a routine, uh, training exercise at the time the collision, um, it was, as according to the war zone here, was connected to their continuity of government mission. [00:11:51] Um, so that's, I mean, so I guess the sort of normal side of their mission is to transport VIPs, um, around DC. Uh, and then on top of that, they had this continuity of government mission that they, that they trained for. So in the event of some sort of a crisis, uh, where, um, you know, national leadership, uh, congressional leadership, federal leadership, military leadership would have to be evacuated out of DC, um, to places like, uh, FEMA's Mount Weather that's in Virginia and the Blue Ridge mountains. [00:12:23] Um, yeah. The joint staff and the DOD, um, have their alternate, uh, National Military Command Center, um, and the emergency operation centers for all the service branches are Raven Rock. Um, that's near Camp David, just across the state line in, um, Pennsylvania. There's a few other, uh, smaller locations dotted in the area around DC. [00:12:44] Some of them are under commercial cover, supposedly. Um, But, uh, yeah, when that alert goes out, um, there's a whole bunch of designated people in government and they train and drill for this stuff as well. Um, and they know to report to kind of designated marshaling points, um, all around the city. Uh, such as the, um. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 6 [00:13:06] The, uh, soccer fields at, uh, American university in, um, northwest DC and, uh, helicopters going to come and pick them up and whisk them off to elsewhere. Um, so, you know, these, uh, it's a very elite, uh, unit, the 12th Aviation Battalion. Um, And, uh, they train to do these, these, uh, evacuations in a whole bunch of really, um, you know, nasty conditions. [00:13:33] If you consider, you know, what, what the situation might be, if you had to evacuate DC, um, in a hurry, you know, such as perhaps, uh, uh, evacuating DC while there's a power outage. You know, so, um, the, the, the crew, um, we know it was reported by the DOD were wearing night vision goggles, um, at the time of this, uh, collision. [00:13:55] I'm not sure if that, um, played any kind of a role. Um, and to be clear here, you know, uh, NTSB is going to do their investigation. They're going to figure out what, what happened. You know, we don't, we don't know what happened. Um, we're not, we're not pilots. Um, but, uh, Yeah, it's a really, um, unfortunate thing is the, uh, uh, deadliest, uh, civil aviation disaster, um, in the U S well, it's the first, it's the first major one since, uh, 2009. [00:14:25] Uh, it was a regional commuter jet that crashed in Buffalo. I think it was weather-related. Um, and then the, before that, um. This is the deadliest one since, uh, it was another American Airlines flight that crashed in November 2001, um, after a departure from, uh, JFK, um, yeah. [00:14:44] Chris Carr: Yeah, and there was a big one in, in the 80s, uh, there was a big one in the 80s that hit the bridge, uh, one of the bridges of the Potomac, um. [00:14:53] Matt Fulton: I think it was a Wilson, uh, or no, the Memorial Bridge, I think. Yeah, yeah. I believe it was that one, yeah. [00:14:59] Chris Carr: Something to do with, um. Came from Miami or something that flies and I think that's air, Florida. [00:15:04] Matt Fulton: That's yeah. Yeah, they're defunct now. But yeah my cousin is a is a commercial pilot and has some experience Flying for one of the bigger airlines here in the US flying aircraft about the same size as the CRJ that crashed. [00:15:22] So I, um, uh, you know, we're not, we're not pilots. I could kind of know, you know, the military, the cog side of things, but as far as the civil aviation side of it, I don't, I don't know. Um, but I, uh, spoke with him yesterday just to pick his brain a bit, you know, knowing we were going to talk about it here. Um, just get his, you know, sense of it. [00:15:42] Uh, he told me a couple of interesting things. Um, So that corridor that the Black Hawk was in, as you said, it was following down, um, it's called Route 1, which begins, uh, up around Langley, Virginia, sort of like right by CIA headquarters, and then follows the Potomac down south towards D.C., and, uh, then as you get sort of more into D. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 7 [00:16:05] C. proper, you know, like around the Pentagon, the Mall, um, the route sort of diverts off, um, From over the Pentagon from, from, from over the Potomac, um, around the title basin, like where the Jefferson, uh, memorial is, and it comes around like, it's called the Washington channel right there. So it de conflicts, um, away from the runways where DCA is right there where you have, you know, aircraft coming in and, and taking off and landing, um, the ceiling there in that area, uh, the, the, you know, altitude ceiling is, um, is, is 200 feet. [00:16:39] Um, it was reported, uh, that. You know, right now after this crash that, um, the helicopter was supposedly around 300 feet. [00:16:46] Yeah. [00:16:48] Matt Fulton: And I, we were, we were talking about that and he said, you know, as far as that aviation is, is, as far as that, um, altitude is, is, is concerned, um, under no circumstances, no matter how. [00:17:00] No matter what your your altitude is, matter how low you are, um, you would never cross in front of a, uh, an airliner, you know, coming, descending airliner coming in on on final approach. Um, so it seems like and again, I'm not, I'm not casting blame on anybody. We don't we don't know, but it, um, it seems like listening to the, uh, air traffic controllers, um, that, uh, this, uh, You know, Hilo was coming in the CRJ, the regional jet was coming in from, from, from the other location. [00:17:33] Um, and, uh, the Black Hawk pilot, you know, uh, was talking with the controller and the controller said, you know, Hey, do you see that CRJ right there? Um, you know, pass behind it. And the pilot said, okay, you know, we'll go, we'll do. Um, so that. Should clear the, the, the controller, um, you know, the tower and, you know, there's on top of that, there's a, uh, it's been a chronic, um, issue here in the FAA, uh, for years of, um, air traffic controllers being, um, short staffed, uh, There was, they were down one staff in the tower at the time of the crash. [00:18:12] Um, but like my cousin said, I mean, yeah, they were down one person, but you know, each of them were doing jobs for like, you know, three or four people. Um, and you really wake one of the hardest jobs in the world. [00:18:23] Um, [00:18:24] Matt Fulton: but it, it, it, Seems like at that time that, um, you know, when the controller says, do you see that, that CRJ there passed behind it? [00:18:32] And the pilot said, yes. Um, there was another aircraft approaching into the runway one, which is a bit farther South along the river. Um, and it's, it's possible that the pilot said yes, looking at that next aircraft and didn't see, didn't see the CRJ coming in a lot, um, closer. Uh, The other thing to consider is, so the, um, the TCAS system on the, um, CRJ, the, uh, traffic and collision avoidance system, right? Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 8 [00:19:05] Um, it's an automated system. And, uh, he was saying, my cousin saying like that, that system has saved his life a couple times. And, um, no matter what altitude you're at, you know, like your stuff at like under a thousand feet, it, you know, doesn't respond quite as well. He says, no, no matter what altitude you're at. [00:19:20] Um, You know, it should have been squawking in that cockpit of that airliner saying, you know, "Climb, climb, climb." Um, so big open question for him. He told me was, you know, what happened with that, with that TCAS system was active. Did it, you know, um, and that's something, you know, again, that we'll, um, get the answer to the other question that I had was with the night vision goggles that the crew on the [00:19:44] Black Hawk [00:19:47] wearing. [00:19:47] Well, that's the thing. Um, I don't know if there's any, if there's any, any, any of you folks listening who may perhaps have an army aviation background or would know the answer to this. I would, I would love to hear, um, what you guys think is a, is it standard procedure For, um, a crew to wear night vision goggles at night in a non combat setting over like, you know, DC where the whole city's like lit up, you know? [00:20:16] Um, does that, uh, like you said, with your peripheral vision, with, uh, with the visibility of all that, you know, kind of ambient light and the regular light that's on the ground coming up in your face, does that, does that have any, you know, um, Harmful impact on your, on your visibility. And so where is it? So, yeah, my, my question there is, is it a standard procedure for the Black Hawk pilots to wear night vision goggles at any time when they're flying at night? [00:20:44] Or was that something specifically because they were doing this Continuity of government training exercise when you would be in, you would be, you know, training for a situation such as like, um, DC had no power and all the lights were out, right? Um, that's something that's, that's an open question I have. [00:20:59] I don't, I don't know the answer to that. [00:21:01] Chris Carr: Well, also in that doomsday scenario, um, you know, if it is rockets coming in, DC would still technically be operating as per normal until the impact. So they would have to fly through air traffic and through dazzling lights, et cetera, with night vision goggles. [00:21:17] Matt Fulton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's a bunch of different questions that you could ask about, about the scenario. I mean, those were the two things from my conversation with him yesterday. Those were the two kind of questions that stuck out for him. You know, um, the, the TCAS system, what was up with that? Um, and then where's the, was the night vision goggles, some sort of a detrimental effect there. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 9 [00:21:39] I mean, it's all, Anytime one of these accidents happen, and they still are exceedingly rare. Yes. If you consider the sheer number of flights that are up every single day, not just in the U.S., but all over the world. And like, the overwhelming majority of them, almost always, you know, take off and land and get to where they're supposed to go without any issues. [00:22:00] You know, it's a miracle that it's as safe and as, you know, um, uneventful as it often is. Yeah, [00:22:08] so it stays that way, yeah. [00:22:09] Matt Fulton: Yeah, when it. Yeah. And, uh, you know, when, when one of these accidents happened, it's almost always some kind of a domino effect, you know, it's like a, it's a couple of things that go wrong a certain way. [00:22:23] And that leads to some kind of a catastrophic outcome, you know? And so like when for a commercial airline pilot, you know, they kind of drill into you and it, it's definitely true with these, you know, army Black Hawk pilots too, that, you know, when you. For the airline piles, when you leave your hotel and you're about to, you know, go to this flight, you have a very kind of set procedure routine of what you're supposed to do. [00:22:44] And if anything, any little thing in that chain deviates from that standard procedure, stop, fix it, consider what you're doing. Um, and that's, uh, That's how you get home at the end of the day. And, uh, so we'll, we'll, we'll find out what, what happened here. [00:23:00] Chris Carr: Yeah. I mean, as to your thoughts on aviation being safe, I mean, just put it into perspective, more people die in road accidents every year than probably in the whole of aviation, um, you know, the only. [00:23:11] The only thing of aviation, obviously, is more dramatic and more people die in a single moment and there's catastrophe, but um, but uh, yeah, generally more people die per year on the cars and, and, and driving is much less regulated to, uh, in comparison to aviation. So, I mean, aviation, you have an engineer check the plane before it goes, you've got air traffic control helping you. [00:23:31] Gotten heavily trained pilots who have medicals every, I think they have one every year, don't they? Every five years to check their health. Um, maybe if we did that more for drivers, uh, we might have less accidents on the road, but there we go. Well, thank you for bringing that one up. I mean, it was a horrendous event that we saw last week and, um, you know, I did want to have a brief chat about it and I'm glad we have had an opportunity to do that. [00:23:55] Um, cause it was just, yeah, it was terrible. It really was. Um, and. You know, my, my thoughts really go out to the families of everybody involved. And there was a video of one of the, um, air stewards and, um, you know, he seemed like a Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 1 0 really positive guy who was always trying to make passengers feel, feel at their best when they, before they left the plane. [00:24:16] And, you know, he's one of the many people who were tragically killed that day. So, uh, yeah, yeah. Terrible events. And, uh, may it always be a very rare occurrence when something like this happens. Well, let's move on to, um, our next story. It's all about, um, FBI agents are stunned by the scale of the expected Trump purge. [00:24:36] And this is by Shane Harris, who's a friend of the podcast, writing for The Atlantic. Yeah. So just a quick summary. So President Trump is expected to fire potentially hundreds of FBI agents and officials in investigations led, that led to criminal charges against him, including those who worked on the classified documents case. [00:24:54] David Sundberg, head of the FBI's Washington Field Office, is among those set to be dismissed, raising concerns about the impact on national security and counterintelligence cases. Trump's administration is reviewing FBI personnel records to identify and potentially dismiss agents involved in investigating and prosecuting those responsible for the January 6 Capitol attack. [00:25:17] No previous president has enacted such a large-scale purge of the FBI. While Trump's retribution was expected, officials are shocked by its scale, and legal challenges are likely due to civil protections. Trump's nominee for the FBI Director, Kash Patel, and his nominee for Attorney General, Pam Bondi, had assured lawmakers that political retribution against law enforcement officials would not occur, contradicting the reported mass firing. [00:25:46] This has obviously been, I think, one of the big stories of this week, um, with regards to, uh, yeah, law enforcement. What are your thoughts on all of this? [00:25:54] Matt Fulton: Yeah. So just to underscore here, this is a very fast-moving, fluid situation. We're recording this on Thursday the 6th. This'll be out the following Saturday. [00:26:04] So by the time, you know, this airs. Who knows? Um, Pam Bondi was, uh, confirmed by the Senate and, and, um, took her, took her oath, was sworn in as Attorney General, um, last night, I, I believe. Um, so she's in place now. Um, yesterday though, on Wednesday, uh, it, it, The acting attorney general, the, I'm sorry, the acting deputy, uh, uh, attorney general, the acting DAG, uh, Emile Bove, uh, sent a message to the Bureau's workforce, uh, and said, "Let me be clear, no FBI employee simply, uh, who simply followed orders and carried out their duties in an ethical manner with respect to January 6th, uh, investigations is at risk of termination or other penalties." And later goes on that, "only those who acted with corrupt or partisan intent who blatantly defied orders or from department leadership or who exercised discretion in weaponizing the FBI." Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 1 1 [00:26:59] So, make of that what you will. [00:27:01] Chris Carr: They're open to interpretation that, but yeah. [00:27:03] Matt Fulton: Yes. Yes. That's, that's sort of where I was going. Um, there's no reason to take them at their word. Um, but you know, this all, I think hinges on, um, you know, what, what they mean by an ethical manner and a corrupt partisan intent. Um, I'm not sure right now we're all operating with the same definition. [00:27:22] Um, Of those things, uh, I've been sort of surprised, um, happily surprised these days, which doesn't happen often, um, the kind of pushback a bit, uh, you know, sort of quiet, dignified, bureaucratic ish resistance, um, You That sort of, we're seeing from within the bureau, from the, um, agents association, uh, sort of like, you're like, you know, uh, employees union, um, and the acting leadership, uh, put in place after the, um, inauguration. [00:27:54] Uh, so right now the, um, acting director is, uh, Brian Driscoll. Um, he was only appointed, uh, uh, SAC or a special agent in charge of the Newark Field Office in, um, New Jersey, uh, in the middle of January. I think it was one of the last things that Christopher Ray did before he, um, before he, uh, Step down. Um, so he was, you know, named by the incoming administration as a acting director. [00:28:18] Um, he's really kind of placed himself, uh, in the line of fire between the White House and the DOJ and his workforce. Um, there's been a lot of, uh, memos going back and forth between the Hoover building and main justice, uh, across the street. And, um, Driscoll's kind of, you know, forwarding it to the staff and saying, here's what they're saying, you know, be aware, take care of yourself, you know, um, we'll see. [00:28:46] I mean, Driscoll, I, as. I'm gonna say 99. 9 percent of the people in the country hadn't heard of him until two weeks ago, um, but, uh, before he was named, um, SAC in, uh, Newark, he was, uh, he was head of the tactical operations section, I believe, in, um, uh, Quantico, which also controls the Hostage Rescue Team, goes by the, goes by the name, uh, the Drizz, This is as his friends call him. [00:29:12] Um, but yeah, and that in the two weeks that I've known who he is, he's, uh, earned my, um, utmost respect. I'm honestly surprised he's still where he is, you know, acting director is one of those things. It's like, you know, okay, bye. You know, if you give me any kind of, you know, pushback whatsoever. Um, so. As of recently, I think it was earlier this week. [00:29:35] Um, uh, uh, the bureau did hand over, uh, details of 5,000 employees. Connected to January six, Uh, connected to the January six, um, Uh, investigations, Uh, were submitted to the white house, Um, including ID numbers, job titles and rolls in Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 1 2 the en rolls in the, uh, investigations, but not names. Um, to the Bureau with that in perspective, of the Bureau has 13, 000 agents and 38, 000. [00:30:02] Total employees. Um, so I, I don't know. I mean, FBI agents don't get to pick what, what cases they're on. Um, again, I go back to what are the acting DAGs say, uh, you know, they're not going to come after, they're only, they're not coming after people with, who acted in an ethical manner, only those with corrupt or partisan intent. [00:30:23] Again, I really don't know that we all have the same definitions of those two things right now. Um, However, it kind of seems an obvious point to make, and sorry if this sounds too partisan to some, but you cannot fire 5,000 people across the FBI without inviting catastrophic consequences for our national security. [00:30:44] Chris Carr: Well, yeah, this is it. I mean, my first question has been, how does this impact the important work of the FBI, which is counterterrorism, counterintelligence, organized crime, and so on. This is hugely disruptive, hugely. It's, [00:30:56] Matt Fulton: it's more than that. It's, it's, it's. It's fraud, it's white collar crime, it's serial killers, it's people who commit all kinds of horrific abuses against children, it's, as you said, it's terrorist groups, it's foreign spies, it's, um, they, uh, it's weapons of mass destruction that they, uh, protect against, their use within the United States. [00:31:20] This is serious shit. It is. Deeply, deeply serious shit. [00:31:24] Chris Carr: Yeah. You can't get more serious than this. I mean, I just heard yesterday's reports. There was an FBI agent who was working on identifying the bodies at the Potomac crash. Yeah. And they were pulled away and called back to the office so they could fill in one of these questionnaires regarding, uh, whether they'd been involved in the January 6th investigation. [00:31:40] Matt Fulton: Right. That's where, that's what the priority is right now. [00:31:42] Chris Carr: Yeah, he's unbelievable. Um, so, you know, and I think it's pretty appalling that this administration are playing politics with the FBI and the Justice Department in the way they are. Now, um, yesterday I was watching, um, have you heard of Dog Shirt TV on YouTube? [00:31:59] It's Benjamin Wittes new, uh, channel. Um, I think it's the same channel was in lieu of fun, but it's been renamed dog shirt TV. [00:32:08] Matt Fulton: I was unaware that he had that. No. [00:32:09] Chris Carr: Yeah. So every morning he now runs, uh, an episode. So I think, um, Yeah, I think it would have aired by now. But anyway, I happened to be watching it yesterday and Shane Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 1 3 Harris popped up I was like, oh my goodness and he was talking a little bit about this and some interesting stuff came up So Shane mentioned yesterday That at the CIA, they've just had a similar fork in the road memo, which is the type of memo It was sent to the FBI And the CIA got one too. [00:32:33] Yeah, and it's been offering employees the opportunity to leave with a buyout. Now it's not clear, it's a shame saying it's not clear if there's an actual inventory going on with this, um, with, you know, tracking who is leaving. You know, are there employees who the CIA don't want to retire? Uh, is anybody keeping track of that? [00:32:54] It doesn't appear to be that anybody is. And he was saying it seems a bit like a sledgehammer approach to downsizing the workforce without care of how it affects the mission of the CIA and the FBI. He believes the objective is to give people who don't want to work under Trump the opportunity to leave. [00:33:12] The goal would then, he believes, be then to replace those people with new people who are more ideologically aligned with the Trump administration. Shane thinks this order is all designed to facilitate this. He also said that the, the CIA and FBI have been asked to identify employees on a probationary period, possibly to remove them as well. [00:33:32] Shane believes the Trump administration largely believes anyone who joined the CIA or FBI in the last four years did so for pro-Biden ideological reasons. So he is saying he believes the Trump administration sees anybody who joined the FBI or CIA in the last four years did it because they're pro-Biden. [00:33:51] Matt Fulton: Shane. says that Shane believes that the Trump administration believes that anyone who joined these agencies in the last four years did it because they're pro-Biden. [00:33:59] Chris Carr: Correct. [00:34:00] Matt Fulton: Okay. [00:34:01] Chris Carr: And Shane feels the Trump administration doesn't understand the culture of these agencies that they're trying to gut. [00:34:06] Thinking that people who joined, people only joined for ideological reasons, and not understanding that these organizations are mission-driven organizations and attract people who are interested in that mission. And, um, so yeah, so Shane sees this action as sort of short-sighted and malicious and driven by hostility towards these organizations. [00:34:28] People at the CIA are currently afraid and nervous and they're looking at what's happening with the FBI and wondering if this is in store for them. And this, this sort of culture of anxiety and nervousness is a sort of obviously a by-product of that. Trump's actions, and it's unclear whether that is part of the point of them. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 1 4 [00:34:47] Um, so yeah, uh, and then away from Shane, uh, I saw this morning, uh, just as I woke up this morning, that there are reports of a memo the CIA sent to the White House. It has a list of probationary employees at the CIA. Yeah. And, um, Apparently it's now largely seen as a huge counterintelligence risk because this list has names on it, apparently, and foreign adversaries would love to get their hands on it. [00:35:10] Matt Fulton: I had some, I had some words about this on, on, on blue sky last night. Yeah. Um, yeah. So back to the, back to the, the, the fork emails, you know, the, the buyout offers, so to speak, I say in quotes. Um, so we have some. Numbers floating around about how that's going. And again, just as a preface, none of this is confirmed and, you know, um, any kind of official numbers coming out of OPM or the white house right now, of course, or, you know, greatly kind of conflicted and colored every reason to assume that, um, but the number that was sort of. [00:35:45] Floating around that. I saw people who have taken the buyout offers. And it's basically like, you know, if you reply to this, it's the same, it's the same damn thing that happened to Twitter. Like it's the same damn playbook. Um, you know, you reply to this email, uh, resign and you get permission to kind of, you know, take like administrative leave, uh, through September. [00:36:06] You still get your paycheck or whatever. And then, you know, you're just, you're just gone. Right. Um, So far, it's thought the number that's floating around is 20,000 people that have taken that buyout offer, which is 1 percent of the federal workforce. To put that in perspective, apparently, kind of regular turnover, like the churn of the federal workforce normally per month, [00:36:29] Chris Carr: Hmmm [00:36:29] Matt Fulton: about 6,000 people, right? [00:36:32] These are the entire federal government. Huge. Right. All over the country. Um, so in perspective, I think 20,000, as opposed to 6,000. Right now, I think, is not, I, I, I, I honestly think that's a, that's a fairly good sign. And apparently, a lot of the folks, uh, from, you know, federal employees who, who were inside who, you know, know their colleagues and know what they're thinking and know what they're doing. [00:37:01] A lot of the people who are taking the buyout offer are, um, probationary employees, people who were there less than a year. Right. Who are, you know, fairly long, fairly young, you know, perhaps in their, you know, twenties or early thirties. And I'm like, yeah, do I want to, you know, stick around here for a bit? [00:37:17] No, maybe I'll just dip out or, um, people, uh, I, as a police, one that I know of, um, specifically that this is the case with this, with this person, um, who, uh, is able to retire Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 1 5 and, you know, kind of was kind of at the end anyway. And, um, said, yeah, okay, I'm, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna walk. I don't really want to deal with it. [00:37:38] And that's kind of understandable. And I think if you take those considerations, I think it's kind of easy to get to 20,000, you know, like a lot of people who would have, who would have left over the course of this year anyway, right. Got that email and go, okay, I'll just leave now. [00:37:53] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:37:55] Matt Fulton: Um. So we'll, we'll see. [00:37:56] It also seems like, um, you know, the, the guys at the top at, at OPM and everything, the office of personnel management, um, aren't too happy that it's only 20,000. Apparently there's a lot of like reminder emails and stuff. Don't forget, like the deadline's coming up. I think it's Friday, right? The, the eighth or Saturday or something where the deadline is supposed to be. [00:38:14] They're like extending it, you know, and sending more emails like, you know, Hey, this is good. You should do it. Um, yeah. And apparently the chatter amongst, you know, federal employees is like, if you have a really good deal for someone, you don't spam their inbox, you don't spam their, you know, inbox telling them how great the deal is. [00:38:28] Um, so what, what happens then when they don't get the attrition rates, when they don't get the resignations that they wanted, you know, um, Do they just start, you know, chopping heads off? I, I don't, I don't know. It's a good [00:38:43] Chris Carr: question. And, and how does this, yeah, how does this affect people sort of like pensions staffers? [00:38:49] Matt Fulton: That's, that's, that's also a good question. Um, I would sure if I was in their position and, you know, one of these people that were coming up close to retirement age and thought, you know, maybe I should just leave now, I would, I would definitely want to talk to a lawyer and be damn sure that, you know, um, I'm not going to get screwed in the long run again, look at Twitter, look at the playbook that happened with a lot of people who work there. [00:39:08] It's kind of very disturbing. Um, the one thing I can say, going back to as far as with the, um, FBI and stuff, uh, you can fire 5,000 of them if you want, but you will find out. [00:39:26] Yeah, [00:39:27] Matt Fulton: we're all going to find out. You will, you will, you will find out if you do that. And bags are going to be in your hands. [00:39:35] Chris Carr: And the FBI have incredibly high standards for the people they hire to be special agents. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 1 6 [00:39:40] Cause I found that out, um, on the FBI tour not long ago. And, um, I think if I remember correctly, out of all the people who apply and go through Quantico, only like 5 percent actually graduate. [00:39:53] Matt Fulton: And it's the FBI. It's, it's the, it's a bunch of. Yeah, white conservative men traditionally, right? That's kind of the image associated with the FBI. [00:40:03] That's who's there. That's who does that job Yeah, yeah, you're you're gonna find out. [00:40:10] Chris Carr: Yeah, indeed indeed well, no, it's disturbing because it feels like obviously as a purge gone and it feels like they Trump is attempting to replace the people who leave with people who are more ideologically aligned. So, you know, the FBI, CIA, et cetera, are supposed to be apolitical organizations. [00:40:29] And generally, from the people we've spoken to, they are. Um, and, um, obviously there's all, you know, no individuals completely apolitical. We've seen examples of people blowing off steam through like, uh, WhatsApp messages, et cetera. But, um, you know, generally it doesn't affect the work. Yeah, [00:40:49] Matt Fulton: just to speak to that, like the people who work there are still, they're still human beings. [00:40:53] They're still American citizens. They're allowed to have thoughts and opinions and they're allowed to on election day, go and fill out their ballot and vote for whomever they choose. Right. But When you, when you take one of those jobs, when you take that oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States, not to any one man, to the constitution of the United States, you know, you, you have to partition that part of you, you know, and when you go to work, you do your job and you're a civil servant and you're there to serve the country, to defend the country, and you're not there with an R or a D next to your name. [00:41:27] It's not how it is. And I think by and large, the overwhelming majority of people in all of those agencies, it's exact that they, they, it's a. It is a almost religious belief for them. [00:41:38] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah, indeed. The only thing I would add, um, there's a sort of note of irony slightly is, um, you know, obviously in the buildup to Trump's first election, there were reports of certain, um, FBI offices being a bit pro-Trump because typically people from law enforcement tend to swing Republican. [00:41:58] And I'd be interested. The New York Field Office. Yeah. The New York Field Office. And was it Charles McGonigal? Wasn't [00:42:04] Matt Fulton: that? Yeah, he was the, he was the, um, He was head of the counterintelligence division at the New York Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 1 7 Field Office. And he was kind of, you know, in bed with some, with some oligarchs and stuff, but yeah. [00:42:14] Chris Carr: So I don't know how that, you know, so it's, I don't know, it just feels slightly ironic that they're now targeting, um, an agency that, you know, supposedly is filled with a lot of Republicans, but we'll see, we will see. But yeah. [00:42:26] Matt Fulton: I think just one, one more point on that before we move on. Um, I think the law fair that we're going to see coming up soon is going to be quite epic. [00:42:36] I don't know. Epic. In which way? [00:42:38] Mm. In [00:42:39] Matt Fulton: the, you know, empire strikes back or a return to the Jedi kind of way. I don't know. But, um, there's, you know, there's, there's a bunch of lawsuits bubbling up. Um, the, at the FBI, the Agents Association Mm. Um, yeah. Is, is kind of getting ready. There's, there's different federal employees unions that are, there's, there's going to be some serious. [00:43:01] It's serious litigation and court cases coming up, um, where those go, how they're, how those outcomes are respected or not. I don't know. [00:43:09] Chris Carr: Well, another friend of the podcast, Mark Zaid, I believe is a very busy man at the moment. Yes, he is. Because his name has come up a few times in, in reports I've been reading. [00:43:18] Um, so I doubt we'll be getting him back on the podcast anytime soon. No, he's got a job to do so. Uh, yeah, but no, I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, cause like the FBI, et cetera, have unions like the police do. And so far they've been kind of quiet, but I'm assuming it's because they're getting ready to make a proper announcement. [00:43:36] I don't think it's just, they're doing nothing. I think it's just, we haven't heard yet. What's going to be the response to this, but I can't believe, um, that they're going to take this lying down. Um, so we will, we will see how this goes, but honestly, um, this is so disruptive, so dangerous, um, totally unnecessary and yet it's happening. [00:43:56] So, uh, yeah, so there we go. Well, let's take a break and we'll be right back. [00:44:18] Welcome back everybody. So our next story is about Russia refusing, well, reportedly refusing to, um, extradite Assad to Syria. So Matt, you. Brought this one up, I'll hand this over to you. [00:44:30] Matt Fulton: Yeah, very interesting story here that just bubbled up. Um, so yeah, the, the Kremlin is allegedly refusing to, uh, well, they're, yeah, the Kremlin is refusing to comment on reports that, uh, Syria's new leader, uh, Ahmed al Shara has requested Bashar al Assad's extradition. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 1 8 [00:44:45] In exchange for Russia retaining its military bases in Syria, Russian officials recently visited Damascus for the first time since Assad's ouster in December, but Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov remained tight-lipped on the matter. The new Syrian government is pressing Moscow to rebuild trust by providing compensation and aiding in reconstruction efforts. [00:45:06] Russia had long supported Assad through military intervention, including heavy bombing campaigns that shifted the tide of Syria's civil war in his favor, uh, until December. Uh, however, Russia's position in Syria is now uncertain. Satellite imagery indicates that Russian forces have been withdrawing assets to Libya. [00:45:24] And Syria recently revoked Russia's 49-year lease on the Tartus naval base, previously a key hub for Moscow's influence, uh, in the Middle East. What'd you think? We just kind of, we just sort of alluded to something quite like this last, last week. Yeah, [00:45:38] Chris Carr: we did actually. Yeah, yeah, we did. Um, well, I think from Russia's point of view, despite the benefits of giving up Assad, um, territorially, the benefits, um, I think the Russians be very reluctant to do so because they want to maintain a reputation of reliability and looking after their allies. [00:45:57] Um, and despite my negative feelings towards Russia's political actions, um, both during the Cold War and should we say the post-Cold War reality we're in now, Russia has generally been quite good at looking after those who work for them. Um, even when things get tough, uh, they tend to only turn on people such as Yevgeny Prigozhin, R. [00:46:15] I. P. Um, when they turn against the Russian government and cause embarrassment. Why is it so hot down there? Yeah, yeah, it probably is still hot down there. Oh my goodness. Um, so if you think of all the Cold War traitors they looked after who they easily could have returned in a spy swap or an extradition request for political advantages, they chose not to do so. [00:46:34] Also, the lack of true democracy in Russia leads to a kind of continuity of government and policies that last for decades, which are a bit different, obviously, to then the United States. So, Russia's relationship does tend to be more stable with their allies than, shall we say, America's sometimes. Um, And I believe that Putin understands that if he's to persuade people to work for him and his government's interests, there has to be a sense of protection that will never be violated. [00:46:59] Also, you know, we said last week, um, Putin is more focused on Ukraine at the moment, and he sees that as of greater strategic importance than the bases in Syria, and possibly believes in time post a victory in Ukraine, that he can reestablish those bases. And if the U S continues on its path of either isolating itself, um, or turning on allies, the new Syrian Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 1 9 government in time may even turn back to Russia for support and trade, whether they turn Assad over or not. [00:47:27] So. I feel like Russia, I think they've got more to gain by holding on to him than not. Um, so yeah, uh, those are really sort of my thoughts on that one. [00:47:38] Matt Fulton: Yeah. Yeah, I thought this was, uh, uh, highly interesting, because we, you know, discussed essentially this exact scenario. Um, on the podcast last week as a way Russia could theoretically attempt to carry favor, uh, with new government and retain some influence in Damas in, in, yeah, in, uh, Damascus, you know, like what's a, what's a lever you could, you could offer? [00:47:58] What's a, you know, what, what could you give them to, you know, grease the wheels a bit? Um, Assad is of course, uh, the ace of spades on the Syrians’ most wanted list on their deck of cards, you know, if you remember those from way back in the day Um, he's he's definitely I think it's safe to say much too high profile and important to Putin um for for him to be handed over. [00:48:21] Um, I don't I don't think that's going to happen At all. I would eat my shoe if that, if that happened. Um, maybe I shouldn't have said that on, on recording, but anyway, you never know with the way this year is going. Uh, it'd be a huge diplomatic, uh, embarrassment, um, and a hitch of their credit to hit to the Russian's credibility, as you've said, you know, they, they usually are pretty good to their, to their own, that the people who sort of, um, pledge fealty to them in some way, um, even if they got an airbase and an, and an access to a Mediterranean port, um, out of the deal. [00:48:52] However. That doesn't mean that they couldn't offer a queen or a jack from that deck of cards. Maybe, um, there's quite a few major regime officials who fled Damascus and are in hiding, um, somewhere, some are suspected to be probably in, uh, Alawite, Syrian Alawite villages, um, in the sort of mountain regions and kind of the Western part of the country, kind of near the coast, um, some are thought to be in, uh, In, in Beirut, some could be in Tehran, some could be in Moscow. [00:49:22] So some of the big ones that are, are kind of in the wind right now, uh, minister of defense, uh, Ali Mahmoud Abbas, the interior minister, Mohammed Khalid Al Rahmoun, uh, the chief of the general staff, um, Abdul Kareem Mahmoud Ibrahim, uh, the head of the national security office, Kifah Moulhem and the deputy vice president for security affairs, Ali Mamouk is thought to be in Beirut under Hezbollah's protection. [00:49:49] Um, Assad's brother, Maher, Maher al Assad, he was the commander of the 4th Armored Division, um, utter psychopath, uh, uh, famously has tortured and murdered people by his own hands and apparently, uh, Quite a lot of pleasure in, in doing so, um, he could be in Moscow or Tehran. Um, Maher al Assad might, might be like, if, if you're to pick one, you know, who would, the Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 0 Syrians would love to get their hands on that man and hold him responsible. [00:50:23] Um, that isn't, that isn't the big guy that isn't Bashar al Assad. Um, yeah, Maher would be, Maher would be quite, quite the nice gift, um, for the Syrians, if, if, if you're Putin and you wanted to sort of, you know, carry favor there and retain some kind of influence, um, Khmeimim Air Base, uh, their main, it was their main base, um, in Syria, uh, became a major force projection platform for Russian operations into, um, Africa, similar how Ramstein, uh, supports logistics for US forces throughout the Middle East and Asia, not just, not just Europe. [00:51:01] So it's, it's very important for them, um, for the Russians to retain some role there, some presence there, if, if they can. Um, I, it wouldn't totally shock me if they did. End up giving, you know, someone over someone who, you know, is, is known to have personally committed war crimes like himself by his own hands to, you know, say, Hey, we don't, we don't stand for that. [00:51:29] Like we wanted, you know, um, Assad to stay in power. Like we didn't want him overthrown by like an, you know, unlawful kind of uprising. They would, they would frame it that way. Right. But, Hey, we don't support all this, you know, blatant torture and murder, which we know of course is quite, um, abject nonsense considering, you know, what they actually did in Syria and Ukraine and all that, you know, um, but it's possible. [00:51:53] Yeah, definitely. [00:51:53] Chris Carr: Definitely. It makes sense to be a bad time to be a kind of middle manager of the, uh, former Assad government because, uh, yeah, they would make a perfect gift really. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's one extra note I was just going to give actually. Um, so the, is it Khmeimim Air Base? Um, there's a really interesting video I found, um, for two espresso martinis ago, which I didn't mention in the end, but, um, it's called combat approved and it kind of gives you a look at life on the base and its operations from a Russian perspective. [00:52:23] Um, and, and their role in the Syrian campaign as they called it. And apparently the best tool for fighting terrorism is, uh, to quote the video, "the good old air bomb." So I'll put a link in the show notes to that video. It's well worth it. It's very jingoistic. It's Russian but mainly in the English language. [00:52:43] So I'm not quite sure who the audience was for this video. Probably a Western audience. Um, but it did provide a bit of, um, insight into what the Russians were up to in, in Syria and how they kind of supported the regime there. Um, and then, you know, yeah, uh, the Russians obviously do have, uh, an interest in the area because they still, you know, have ships and things that are kind of keeping an eye on things. [00:53:06] And there was a reported fire on a, on a spy ship called Kaladin just off the coast of Syria this week. And, um, Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 1 and it, one of the key points that sort of came out about this fire is sort of, um, highlighting how Uh, a lot of the Russian equipment is old, uh, and poorly maintained. And the ship itself, the Kalinin, um, is actually a 55-year-old ship that was actually built in Poland when it was occupied by the Soviet Union. [00:53:34] Um, and it's not the first ship the Russians have nearly lost to a fire because they had. Uh, the Moskva, which sank, um, in, uh, after an attack by the Ukrainians, a lot of naval experts believe that the reason the ship sank was actually for the lack of fire control on the ship, um, and sort of poor, you know, just basically poor training on the part of the Russian naval officers and crew on the ship. [00:54:00] So the ship probably could have survived the attack had they put out the fires. So, um, Yeah, there's all sorts of interesting things going on with Russia at the moment. Um, and regards to their sort of various fleets, the only, the only thing that I do know, um, with regards to, to Russian sort of naval activity, et cetera, at the moment is this, they seem to be putting a lot of effort towards submarines. [00:54:21] That seems to be where Putin's focus is. [00:54:24] Matt Fulton: That's always been the heart and soul of the, of the Russian Navy, even going back to the Soviets, their, their, um, Their submarine force was always, always much more capable. And the resources pumped in there were much greater than their surface fleet. I mean, that's, um, the submarine force is also the back, this is the backbone of their nuclear arsenal. [00:54:44] Um, you know, I mean, that's a key national asset. If that goes down, they got, they got nothing. [00:54:50] Chris Carr: Exactly. Exactly. It's kind of their, it's how they do gunboat diplomacy effectively, but just without a gunboat, it's just with the sub. Um, so yeah, no, a big part of that defense there and submarines in many respects, you don't need that many to be effective. [00:55:04] Um, they just need to be able to evade being detected. That's the main thing. Um, and also on top of that, they need to be able to detect hostile submarines. So yeah, so we can see why, um, like we were undersea mappings, very important at the moment of these spy ships. And so, um, yeah, the Khalid and being off the coast of Syria does not surprise me in the slightest. [00:55:25] And obviously, um, they were keeping an eye, probably scooping up electronic data, um, like radio signals, et cetera, to kind of find out what, um, might be happening to their bases because their bases at that time were under threat. They've now, I think they've largely evacuated all the bases and have a very reduced presence there right now. [00:55:43] Right. [00:55:44] Matt Fulton: Well, they had a, uh, essentially, yeah, they, they. pretty much cut a deal with HTS to, you know, spare Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 2 their forces there to spare their bases. So I don't, they weren't under like, I don't think they were ever going to be under threat of like, uh, commanding them coming under attack or something, but yeah, it's a serious situation there for them. [00:56:02] Yeah. [00:56:03] Chris Carr: Yeah, indeed. Indeed. Yeah. So Matt, you got picked up this story about Iran might be looking to build a nuclear weapon again. [00:56:10] Matt Fulton: Yeah. There's a, um, uh, story that pops up in the, in the New York Times recently that I'm really kind of, you know, this is all the headlines like, Whoa, wait, what? Um, so, uh, new us intelligence suggests that Iranian scientists are exploring a more rapid but less sophisticated pathway to building a nuclear weapon. [00:56:26] Should Tehran decide to cross that threshold, this approach would allow Iran to develop a nuclear weapon. Functional nuclear device in months rather than years, though the weapon would be rudimentary and unlikely to be mounted on a ballistic missile. The intelligence gathered in the final months of the Biden administration and relayed to Trump's national security team underscores growing concerns that Iran is seeking a nuclear deterrent and military setbacks. [00:56:50] Iran's position is weaker than it has been in years. Its key proxies, Hamas and Hezbollah, have suffered significant blows and Assad's departure to Moscow has complicated Iran's regional influence. Uh, an Israeli, uh, counter strike in October further degraded, uh, Iran's military capabilities, hitting missile defense systems, and disrupting its ballistic missile production infrastructure. [00:57:12] Against this backdrop, Iran's leadership appears divided. President Massoud Pezeshkian has expressed interest in renewed diplomatic negotiations. Um, it's not really up to him. Spoiler. I mean, I could say that I'm up for renewed negotiations. It doesn't, also doesn't matter. Um, it's, it's not his decision. Um, I'll be up to the Supreme Leader in the IRGC, uh, but experts believe he and Iran's foreign ministry are largely unaware of the Revolutionary Guard's covert nuclear activities. [00:57:40] Despite having enough, uh, enriched uranium to produce multiple bombs, Iran still faces technical challenges in weaponizing its nuclear material. Historically, U.S. And Israeli intelligence have estimated that it would take at least a year. to develop a deployable warhead, but the new assessment suggests Iran may opt for a crude device possibly based on blueprints from Pakistani scientist A. [00:58:01] Q. Khan. While such a weapon would not be an immediate offensive threat, it could serve as a deterrent, potentially altering strategic calculations in Washington. Jerusalem and beyond, Chris, what do you think of this one? Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 3 [00:58:13] Chris Carr: Yeah, um, I think I've said this before, I, I, I'm of the opinion that the Iranian regime is much more fragile than it appears, and this could explain their drive to develop a nuclear weapon, which they might see as essential for preventing an attack by Israel, the US. [00:58:28] Um, a nuclear Iran. Sorry, a nuclear-armed Iran could be a direct threat to Israel, of course, but what's worse is it could set off a kind of nuclear arms race in the Middle East, and I, I think Sunni countries such as Saudi Arabia would not tolerate a Shia Iran having such a devastating weapon in their arsenal, especially if they have nothing to match it, so that could be, I think that's one of the big fears at the moment is this sort of, um, nuclear arms race kicking off in the Middle East, which I think most administrations have been trying to prevent, um, it's been reported that President Trump has said he wants a verified nuclear peace agreement with Iran, and he's denied that he wants to blow Iran to smithereens. [00:59:07] Describing such reports is greatly exaggerated, but we will see. Um, could this mean we see, uh, some blusters and threats to Iran before negotiations, or will, America with Israel get involved in some joint airstrikes and other measures to target Iran's nuclear ambitions. I'm not sure at this point. Um, Trump appears to like to present himself as this sort of wild card. [00:59:31] He makes a lot of statements. Some appear and some of those do appear to upset allies whilst then, and then he kind of settles on a, uh, a path of action and, and, um, You know, we've seen such statements about how we'd like to, uh, like the U.S. to take over Gaza, which are now kind of being walked back, but since then, those comments have kind of inflamed anti-American sentiments and caused a lot of concern with strategic allies, um, so I don't know whether the U. [00:59:59] S. would consider the U.S. To you know, what, where the U.S. sort of stands with Iran at the moment. But I know it's been a very traditional kind of, um, talking point in Republican circles that they don't want a nuclear-armed Iran. And I think that the U.S. Would be possibly willing to, um, you know, help Israel and take some action, um, against, you know, strategic sites and things with airstrikes. [01:00:22] And, you know, we've already talked a little bit about how they have worked with Israel on a lot of, um, a lot of these things. So I don't know, only time will tell really on, on this issue with what's going to happen next. I don't know. [01:00:34] Matt Fulton: Yeah. Let me, um, uh, give us some perspective here and take us back a few years and kind of walk us back up to the moment that we're in. [01:00:41] So this is, Which is, side note, this is a really interesting story for me because the, like, uh, crux of my Active Measures series, the first book in the series, which has been out for many years, too many years, and been working on the second Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 4 one for way too long, but they're very big, complicated books, um, the crux is, uh, a, um, in the first chapter, a, uh, um, A parallel covert Iranian nuclear weapons program is discovered and the whole point of it is they're sort of making a smaller, cruder nuclear weapon, um, that they could do much faster and much quieter. [01:01:15] So this was, you know, this is kind of familiar, uh, ground for me. So it, it, it, the estimate right now is. That it would take only days for Iran to enrich its uranium stockpile up to and above 90%, right? Which is the threshold needed for use in a bomb. However, it's estimated that it'd take another year To 18 months to marry that physio material with a functioning warhead, right? [01:01:47] The uses it as a weapon. Um, Iran would be attacked within that, within that window. Um, they couldn't hide that push to 90 percent uh, enrichment. The only thing that that would mean is that they are actively proceeding ahead with a weapon and they would be attacked. Um, that's just a fact. Uh, the the through line though, on the question of Iran's intent for its nuclear program has largely remained constant for like 20 years, going back to 2003. [01:02:19] And this was confirmed essentially in 2018, um, when Mossad broke into this warehouse and stole like a hundred thousand documents on Iran's nuclear program. And it like demonstrated like, yes, they did. This is exactly what they were doing the whole time. Right. Okay. So. In 2003, um, after the invasion of Iraq, uh, the Supreme Leader, um, Ayatollah Khamenei, um, shelved the nuclear weapons program side of, uh, of Iran's nuclear program. [01:02:50] He wanted to move ahead with the civilian power side, but the weapons program was, um, uh, shelved. So since that time, the Supreme Leader hasn't. ordered the production of a bomb, but he would like to keep the option open and thus needs to maintain the industrial base, the scientific and engineering expertise, uh, and a usable stockpile of fizzle material, which is, you know, uh, highly enriched, um, uranium or weapons-grade, uh, plutonium. [01:03:20] Um, so after 2013, much of that work was shifted to studying and developing the other components that go into a bomb. Um, like the conventional, uh, explosive lenses that are shaped around, uh, the plutonium core and implosion-type nuclear weapon. Um, so, uh, that was like, um, fat man. The bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki was an implosion-type design. [01:03:44] Uh, the, the, the Trinity gadget was an implosion-type design. And if anyone's seen, um, Oppenheimer, fantastic movie, if you haven't go see it. Um, there's a scene where you can see them like fitting in these explosive lenses, these explosive lenses onto the Trinity gadget at Los Alamos. Um, ahead of the, ahead of the test. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 5 [01:04:02] Um, That step is key because if there's even the slightest fault in the fabrication or, or placement of just one of these lenses, or even if the millisecond that they all fire is just a little bit off, um, you don't get a supercritical mass, uh, there's, there's no fission, the bomb's a dud, and you've wasted, you know, years of incredibly valuable, um, plutonium, and that was a, a serious concern during the Manhattan Project when they were gearing up for, for, for Trinity, like if this thing fails to get a supercritical mass, you know, we've just wasted years of all this plutonium production, um, you know, like we're basically back at square one. [01:04:41] If this goes wrong, like, right, those, those were the stakes there. Um, the same. So the same equipment and technical know-how needed to produce those explosive lenses, um, which have to be milled to such like exact precision and specification can be used in the production of things like nanodiamonds or even like eyeglasses more simply. [01:05:03] Right. Um, it isn't like the lenses in an eyeglass in, in, in, in eyeglasses have to be, you know, very kind of like specific to meet the prescription and everything. Right. Um, so you can still. Make progress in that area without actively developing a bomb and also give you a degree of, um, deniability. Uh, Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, uh, before Mossad assassinated him in 2020, uh, with that, you know, remotely operated, um, machine gun. [01:05:31] Oh yeah, it's very Breaking Bad, wasn't it? Yeah. Uh, so he was a professor, uh, uh, Imam Hussein University, um, in Tehran. He also led the Organization for Defensive Innovation and Research, which is essentially like Iran's DARPA. Um, he was supposed to be their Robert Oppenheimer, um, and he was working on stuff like that in that period between 2003 and, and his death in 2020 for the most part. [01:05:54] Um, so he was, he was doing his research. He was, you know, still kind of working on stuff. That could be used for a bomb, but not actually building a bomb. He was waiting for the Supreme Leader to call and say, um, Hey, it's time. So to answer the question there about what we're seeing right now, reading this report in the times, um, just, you know, looking at what's there, that's all I got to go on right now. [01:06:18] Um. Thank you. This honestly doesn't seem like cause for great alarm. I know like the headline is like, Iran's pushing to build a new crude, small nuclear weapon. You know, they're going to do it. I don't, I don't [01:06:29] Chris Carr: say that for years. [01:06:30] Matt Fulton: They've been saying that for 20 years. It. Exactly. Um, that's not to brush it off, you know, it's not to suggest that it's a, it's a serious thing that we need to guard against and we need to be kind of proactive in, in, in monitoring it. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 6 [01:06:42] But, um, there's been a lot of, um, moments of alarm that, you know, in all that time, like I said, that constant through line has stayed the same. They want the option to build a bomb. They have not made the decision to build one, right? That's always been like that since 2003. Um. Absolutely. Absolutely. So the sourcing in the article is sort of fuzzy. [01:07:04] Um, I do find it a little bit sus that this drops right when Bibi comes to visit Trump. Um, a lot of folks in Israel are saying, now's our, as you kind of alluded to, um, and now's our time to finish off. The nuclear program, and they're technically even objectively correct. I, I got to say, um, Iran's ability to respond to such an attack is a shadow of what it would have been 18 months ago. [01:07:30] Um, there aren't any details on what this, Does this crude hastily assembled bomb, um, would, would use. And that's sort of another interesting open question for me that I would really like to know about more. I mentioned, you know, they may perhaps use designs they got from, um, AQ Khan, you know, the Pakistani nuclear scientists who operated like a black market for nuclear materials, um, in the early, uh, 2000s. [01:07:59] That's somewhat to me points to a. Implosion type weapon. It's just sort of my, my, my gut. Um, if, if they are using an AQ Khan uh, design, you know, perhaps, but again, totally speculating there. The article doesn't, the article doesn't say, um, but this isn't an area where you want to cut corners either, or again, you're going to get a dud or at least you're going to irradiate all of your scientists and engineers, um, you don't want to do that. [01:08:26] They're really valuable. They're almost as much, they're almost as valuable as a fizzle material. Um, it honestly seems like. Intelligence indicated, uh, these discussions are happening in Tehran right now, right? Perhaps like a SIGINT intercept or something, you know, like they're, they're talking about this. [01:08:44] Um, they're asking questions on whether such a thing is technically feasible for them. And it may be, uh, but it wouldn't be of much strategic value or dig themselves, I think, out of the hole that they've, that they're in now after Hezbollah and Assad's defeat. So, um, Let's say, you know, they do slap together a bomb of a couple kiloton yield, right? [01:09:06] So it's fairly small boom for a nuke, but it's physically too large to place atop a ballistic missile. So how do you deploy it? Um, Iran has no strategic bombers. You can put it, uh, in the back of a Yeah, you could put it in a cargo plane and roll it down the back of a ramp, but you're not getting it anywhere near Tel Aviv, right? [01:09:26] So you have to then smuggle it to your target if you do intend to use it, right? Which also, again, is a huge assumption, right? That they would build it and then want to use it, right? That's just, just, you know. Make saying that for Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 7 conversation right conversation's sake like let's say they build this thing and they want to use it How do you get it to target? [01:09:43] You don't have a missile to put it on you can't deliver it by aircraft You have to smuggle it in illicitly somehow but keep in mind The package that this bomb is in is still pretty big because it's too big to put on a missile, right? um So in this whole time then that you're trying to smuggle it to your target, it's still bleeding gamma rays and neutron emissions, and they can shield that with lead or tungsten, but I wouldn't want to bet that we haven't developed classified countermeasures to detect that stuff. [01:10:17] Chris Carr: Got the nuke sniffer, haven't you? Right. [01:10:19] Matt Fulton: Um, yeah, chances are good. I think that it would be detected and interdicted and then they're really screwed. So, and then let's also say, as the time suggests that they opt to test fire one in the desert as a demonstration, right. And then, uh, announce that they're a nuclear power still now they're, they're still screwed. [01:10:41] Um, Now they're an international pariah, uh, and they get obliterated by Israel and or the U.S., the U.K., France, the Gulf Arabs, probably, um, now they're not a nuclear power anymore and the regime's gone, um, so again, Absent further evidence, I think these are discussions that are certainly happening in Tehran, um, options that are being further explored in theory, uh, it'd be strange for them not to, honestly, to look into exploring this after the year that they just had, um, it's like, you know, what do we, what do we do? [01:11:12] Okay, can we build a bomb? How do we build a bomb fast? Okay, it's got to be crude. Okay, we could technically build a small crude nuclear weapon, but then what do we do with it? Right? Like, it doesn't, It doesn't get you anything, you know, um, I remember having this conversation with Phillip Smyth in one of our in one of our episodes a few months back like a nuclear weapon doesn't allow you to project force on the ground into Syria, you know, it doesn't allow you to rearm Hezbollah Um, it doesn't answer those questions for them. [01:11:47] Uh, I so Uh, yeah, at, at the end of the day, I don't think it's likely that they're about to race toward a bomb, uh, because given the circumstances, I don't see what they gained from it in doing, in doing it in this, in this manner. So that's a very long-winded way to say, calm down. [01:12:05] Chris Carr: I have a dumb question because I'm not, I'm not totally up on nuclear missiles and bombs. [01:12:10] It's sort of my, um, weak point at this point. But, um, you made the whole thing about dirty bombs, where basically you have a collection of radioactive material that you you know, attached to an explosive and set it off. Is there anything stopping them from shoving a load of radioactive material into a conventional, or a number of conventional rockets, uh, with the Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 8 intention of them being shot down or crashed just so they spread radioactive material across Israel, could that happen? [01:12:39] Matt Fulton: Uh, I want to say, no, there isn't anything stopping them from doing that. I mean, could you take, could you take some low, I mean, lower-enriched uranium is still radioactive. You know, you can still use that in kind of a radiological dispersal device, a dirty bomb, as you want to call it that. Um, yeah. Could you put that into a payload of a, of a missile, you know, uh, Marriott to the conventional HE explosives or take out the HE explosives and just put in, um, any kind of radioactive material. [01:13:11] Yeah, they could do that now, it would still end in their destruction. [01:13:15] Chris Carr: Oh yeah, totally, totally. I mean, if they felt that this was a, you know, I don't know, whatever scenario they would decide to do this. But I remember when, um, the rocket attacks that happened last year. I remember seeing a picture of a man posing next to one of these rockets. [01:13:29] And I thought, well, It could have had something biological or nuclear in it for all he knew at that point. Um, I wouldn't stand next to a down recently downed rocket from Iran to at least somebody had checked it out to check it was safe. But yeah. [01:13:42] Matt Fulton: The other thing to consider then in that scenario is right. [01:13:45] So. You don't have, if you're Iran, you don't have a ton of fissile material anyway, you have enough to produce a couple bombs, but you don't have tons of it to just, you know, lob off into the atmosphere and it lands wherever it lands, right? It's still pretty valuable material. If you're going to, if you were going to use it, again, for sake of conversation, if you were going to use it in, as a kind of makeshift dirty bomb, You would want to be pretty damn sure that it's going to hit the target that you wanted to hit, right? [01:14:14] So look at the exchange of missiles back and forth between Iran and Israel over the last year, right? They fired off hundreds. Thousands of even even of missiles and drones at best a couple a handful made it to Israel right, so if you have your precious national asset stockpile of highly enriched uranium that you've spent billions of dollars and all kinds of scientific effort You know decades. [01:14:45] Um amassing this material are you going to put it? Into a missile and launch it up into the atmosphere for it to probably get shot down and land in Iraq or Jordan or something [01:14:59] and [01:15:00] not even hit Israel. Like, what do you gain from that? [01:15:02] Chris Carr: Yeah. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 2 9 [01:15:02] Matt Fulton: You're going to get destroyed anyway because you just launched a dirty bomb that, you know, that landed in Jordan. [01:15:10] Chris Carr: Either way, it never ends well for Iran. [01:15:12] Matt Fulton: No. That's the, that's the thing here. Like, I mean, yeah, they technically could do this, but I don't know that that's, I don't see how that's an answer to their problem. So I don't know why they would do it. [01:15:21] Chris Carr: No, hence why they have the proxy forces to do stuff instead. [01:15:24] Matt Fulton: Exactly. The proxy forces, honestly, and this is a point that, you know, Philip and I were kind of making, the proxy forces are arguably more valuable for their ability to project force across the Middle East than a nuclear bomb would be. Makes a lot of sense. So. That's what I think about that. [01:15:38] Chris Carr: Well, thank you for that, Matt. [01:15:39] I think, yeah, it's a lot of food for thought with Iran. I think it's no, there's no need to press the panic button just yet. Uh, no doubt President Trump be pressing the Diet Coke button instead. Um, but, uh, but there we go. So we will see what happens over the next few weeks with regards to, um, US and Israel action on Iran. [01:16:00] But, uh, you know, yeah, I just hope, uh, calm heads prevail, not hot heads, because obviously there's been a lot of, um, Republicans and the, uh, political right in Israel have been very vocal against Iran. Um, and some of them have been a very keen for military action to topple the regime. And I think that would be a very dangerous course. [01:16:21] And I don't think there's any real need for it because it doesn't appear like the nuclear situation is as bad as maybe some people might believe. So, yeah. [01:16:30] Matt Fulton: Hey, can I just say one more thing to that point about, I mean, I'm sure there's people listening here saying, okay, well, does that mean Trump's going to, you know, bomb Iran now or something? [01:16:37] Or is he going to let Bibi do it or whatever? I'm not going to pretend to know what goes on in that man's head for a minute to minute, you know, or what he definitely will or won't do. I have no idea. Right. [01:16:51] Chris Carr: And I think he likes it that way too. [01:16:52] Matt Fulton: He definitely does. That's his madman theory thing that he does. [01:16:55] Um, I think his instinct and you can see this, right? His underlying instinct is to avoid military, big military conflict, especially that involves large committed numbers of us troops because it makes for bad television. Americans don't like Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 3 0 to see bad, scary stuff on their TV screens. We saw that all last year. [01:17:21] Yeah. Right. Like, I just don't want to see it. Like, this is upsetting me. I don't want to see it. He knows that. Right. So he's, he's hesitant to create a situation that would produce those images. Right. Now, again, I'm sure there's people saying, screaming, what about him saying he were just going to take Gaza? [01:17:36] Chris Carr: Well, yeah. You know, or the Panama [01:17:37] Matt Fulton: Canal or something or Greenland or whatever. [01:17:39] Chris Carr: Greenland. Canada. [01:17:42] Matt Fulton: Yes. It's been a busy, [01:17:43] Chris Carr: busy three weeks. [01:17:44] Matt Fulton: Correct. Correct. I agree. The ideological, the ideological consistency is not there. And, and the sheer proposal of wanting to do those things, even if it's just, you know, out of his head randomly, right. [01:17:59] It's still very diplomatically damaging and not good and bad. And maybe we'll talk more about that next week. He does not see the U.S. Taking Gaza. Or the Panama Canal or Greenland as a war. He thinks that like, they're just going to give it to us because we're so awesome. And he's going to yell at them enough until they just do it. [01:18:19] He doesn't think it would involve a war to do such a thing, right? Taking out Iran's nuclear program would involve at least some level of serious military action. Oh yeah. I think it's an important thing to like, you know, if you must, I know it's not anywhere near Halloween. If you must put yourself in his head. [01:18:36] He does not see taking Gaza as a war, right? And that's. Where I think that, you know, blatant, yes, hypocrisy, ideological disconnect, stupidity, even perhaps you could say that's real and that's where that comes from, but he does not see it as a war and I think that's, to him, there's, that's completely ideologically consistent. [01:19:00] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Indeed. It's just his [01:19:02] Matt Fulton: psychology. [01:19:03] Chris Carr: Yeah, yeah, indeed. Yeah. And, uh, no, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll may talk about Gaza next week, because at the moment, I mean, the White House have walked back the comments now, but, um, so I don't know really what's going on with it. He, cause he brought it twice. [01:19:17] He's mentioned it now. Um, and I, and I was hesitant to, to do a piece on it today because it's just frankly, at the moment with regards to Trump, there's a lot of things being said, Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 3 1 but you've got to match it up with then action, because I think if you. React to everything he says. I mean, we'll probably be on air 24 seven. [01:19:36] Matt Fulton: I think there is something worth talking about it in terms of like the diplomatic distraction and just kind of like the chaos and uncertainty of the president of the United States standing at the white house saying we're just going to take Gaza and like Everyone rightfully because the president said it's like what do you mean? [01:19:50] You're going to take Gaza? Yeah, you know He's pissed off [01:19:53] Chris Carr: every Arab ally now, he's pissed, he's caused concern for NATO and it might even lead to an attack on an American embassy in the Middle East somewhere. We could have another Benghazi next week for crying out loud. I'll say one thing [01:20:06] Matt Fulton: though, um, if you do plan on firing hundreds or even thousands of FBI agents, um, occupying Gaza is not something that you want to do. [01:20:14] Just, just pro tip there. [01:20:17] Chris Carr: That's a very good pro tip, yeah. Yeah, indeed. Indeed. Yeah. No, because as we've seen over the last year, you know, um, anything, you know, Israel and, um, Hamas's war has sparked so much emotion. So if America thinks that, oh yeah, we're going to just take Gaza or if Trump thinks, I'm not going to say America, if Trump thinks that we're going to just walk in and take Gaza and there'll be no consequence, I think you haven't, he hasn't been paying attention for the last year. [01:20:43] So, uh, yeah, it'd be very stupid to do it. Um, and I, you know, I think most of America's allies have sort of expressed something on those terms. Um, as politely as they can about upsetting Trump and alienating him, because they know that that's bad for them too. But, uh, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't inspire confidence is the polite way to put it, [01:21:06] Matt Fulton: it most certainly does not. [01:21:08] Chris Carr: So I think on that note, we'll hold and we'll wrap up for today. So thank you everybody for listening. So a few things, um, first of all, uh, so we've got an episode coming up on the 22nd of February. So that'd be our last episode in February. So, um, please send in. 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So thank you for those comments for those who do follow us on Facebook. [01:23:08] And I apologize for it being neglected. Um, you can also follow myself and Matt on Bluesky. We both have our own personal accounts that link to there. If you want to experience this podcast ad free, please go to Patreon. com forward slash secrets and spies, and you can get ad free versions of these episodes. [01:23:25] Also. I don't know if many people know this, because we've only ever had a very small number of sales, but we do have a Red Bubble merchandise store. Um, there's also a link in the show notes. And you can get t shirts, cups, uh, water bottles. For some reason we sold a few water bottles. Um, even I don't have a Secrets and Spies water bottle, but water bottle? [01:23:45] I didn't know we had water bottles. Yeah, we have water bottles. Um, yeah, there's tote bags. There's one tote bag in the Middle East. I can tell you that now. Um, so somebody out there is walking around with secrets and spies back. But, uh, but there we go. There's [01:24:00] Matt Fulton: a copy of my novel. This is courtesy of Phillip Smyth. [01:24:03] There's a copy of my novel that was, uh, at least for a while. I don't know if it still is, was in the, um, office of the commander of the Bahrain Police Force, I think. Oh, [01:24:12] wow. That's cool. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Okay. Espresso Martini 38 (2.25) 3 3 [01:24:15] Chris Carr: Yeah. It's always fun. Yeah. Yeah. It's always interesting that so yeah, no, that's really cool. [01:24:20] So, uh, no, good, good, good. So yeah. So, um, please. And finally, obviously if you don't want to, um, you know, do patron by merchandise, et cetera, that's absolutely fine. What I do ask. Please share this episode. If you find value in the podcast, please share it because the more people you share it to, um, the more people will come across this podcast. [01:24:41] And one last thing earlier this week, I got an email from the founder of FeedSpot and Secrets and Spies is currently at number three in the top 10 spy podcasts on the FeedSpot website. That's cool. It's very cool. So we've been on this. Uh, chart before, but we've usually be in like the after, you know, beyond 10, like at 15, 20, but ahead of us is spy cast at number one, well-earned SpyCast is definitely the number one sort of spy podcast out there. [01:25:11] And then number two is our friends at Spy Hards, which is the movie podcast. And I've been on there a couple of times as well as a guest, but then here we are at number three. Um, and I'm really pleased with that. Um, It's really nice to be in the chart and to be, should we say the, yeah, the, the only other factual podcast below spy, uh, spy cast, I was like, wow, that's really, you know, puts us in a very interesting place, but a great honor. [01:25:37] So thank you very much to feed spot for including us in your chart there. I have no idea how they, um, kind of, uh, compute it, et cetera, and figure out. How that works, but but um, yeah, I'm honored I'm honored. So thank you very much for that Uh, so that is us done for this week. So thank you again everybody for listening I hope you all have a wonderful weekend and we will catch you next week. [01:26:02] Take care. [01:26:03] Matt Fulton: Bye, everybody. [01:26:04] Chris Carr: Bye for now.