[00:00:00] Chris Carr: Hello, everybody, and welcome to Espresso Martini. Matt, how are you?

[00:00:04] Matt Fulton: Oh, hello, Chris. I'm okay. Uh, probably more rested than I was last week, but you know, hey, it's all right. How are you?

[00:00:12] Chris Carr: That's good. I'm good. I'm okay. I'm on, uh, painkillers at the moment because I hurt my back. Um, I'd love to say there was some really cool story about how I hurt my back, like, I don't know, defeating some international assassin or, I don't know, hanging from a helicopter.

[00:00:25] But what happened was, um, I went to a kebab shop to get some lunch. I sat down on a chair in the kebab shop, and then suddenly they called out my order, and I stood up very quickly, and suddenly my back went. And I felt this very sharp pain in my lower back. And, um, so I spent the rest of the weekend in horrific pain.

[00:00:47] Had to go and see an osteopath. And, uh, I'm now on painkillers. Um, and, uh, I, I've read the side effects and I don't think I should be having any kind of Roseanne Barr-style antisemitic rants because of these painkillers. Um, but I, I will do my best to avoid that. So I am on drugs. Um, I, I only accept some responsibility of what I say today, but, uh, you know, I'm okay.

[00:01:14] Matt Fulton: Yeah. It could be a fun, it could be a fun show. Interesting. Maybe I'll probably, I'll probably stop you. Maybe we should have like a safe word. Yeah. I'm like, yo, Chris. It's getting a little, getting a little nuts there. Getting a little nuts, yeah. Let's tone it back. You're going to get a this one out. Yeah.

[00:01:29] Yeah.

[00:01:32] Chris Carr: Oh dear. But yeah, no, hopefully, hopefully, uh, none of that, but, uh, yeah, no, I am on, on some, uh, quite, quite mild sort of, um, ibuprofen at the moment. So it's kind of a, as painkillers, painkillers go, it's not very exciting. It's not like codeine or something where

[00:01:47] Matt Fulton: Yeah, I don't even, I didn't even feel that.

[00:01:48] Chris Carr: No, no. So it's, uh, yeah. So, and I've got a deep heat patch on my back as well at the moment, which is actually, as I touch my back, is quite warm, um, so that's providing some comfort. But yeah, yeah.

[00:01:59] Matt Fulton: It sucks getting old.

[00:02:00] Chris Carr: I know, it does. It does indeed. Um, I wish there was some exciting story for it, but sadly there is not.

[00:02:06] Matt Fulton: Last winter, I was out, I was out walking, I was actually on a jetty. That's not really important to the story, but I was out walking on this jetty and I get back home and there's this, like, I had like hiking boots on and stuff and everything. Like it wasn't, you know, it wasn't out there in like flip flops or some, something dumb like that.

[00:02:23] And yeah, there's just like this pain in my, in my ankle that I don't know. Like when I was out there walking, like I didn't do anything. I didn't sprain it or twist it or anything like that. There was just this pain in my ankle and, you know, a couple of days go by and it's still there. And I'm thinking like, well, shit, like that.

[00:02:39] I do that. I do something out there that I tweak it or whatever.

[00:02:42] Chris Carr: Yeah.

[00:02:43] Matt Fulton: I had like, I had like a regular physical with my doctor, you know, like very kind of shortly, like around that time. So I went in and I asked her like, you know, Hey, what. What's up? Can you, you know, check this out? So she sends me in to get like an X ray and everything.

[00:02:54] So you have to go to, you know, it's another appointment on another day, go in at the ass-crack of dawn to get an X ray on my foot and everything. And then they look at it and they're like, yeah, there's nothing there. You're fine. You're just like, okay. So I'm just, I'm just old. And that just, that just happens.

[00:03:10] Chris Carr: You're not even that old. Yeah.

[00:03:12] Matt Fulton: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, yeah. So.

[00:03:14] Chris Carr: To be fair, in my thirties, I had this weird ankle issue like yourself, um, and I, and it went on for months. I had acupuncture, I tried all sorts of things, nothing worked. And then, um, I went on holiday to Wales with my wife, we, we walked up Mount Snowdon. And, um, my, my legs by the end of walking up and down Mount Snowdon were in such pain and I was walking like John Wayne for like a week afterwards because of whatever muscles had been, uh, used.

[00:03:40] But after that, my ankle pain was all gone. So maybe you need to walk up a mountain.

[00:03:45] Matt Fulton: Maybe. Maybe, we'll see. We'll see. I don't really have a lot of mountains around me. No, you know, uh, I mean, I can, I can get to mountains, but it's going to take a little bit, but yeah.

[00:03:57] Chris Carr: Yeah. Fair enough. Well, uh, mountains and, uh, ankles and backs aside, um, today, today we're going to be looking at some interesting topics.

[00:04:08] We've got, um, President Trump wishes to designate Mexican drug cartels as foreign terrorist organizations. Then we have the NSA are deleting 27 banned words from their websites and internal documents. Then we've got President Trump has said he wants Ukraine's minerals in exchange for US support. And then we will wrap up looking at Iran's new drone aircraft carrier, which is actually quite something.

[00:04:34] So, um, we'll kick off with the cartels, which is one that you picked out, Matt. So I'll let you tell us a bit about that.

[00:04:40] Matt Fulton: Yeah, this is an ongoing, uh, story that we've had for the last couple of weeks since the inauguration. So here's, uh, some of the key details. Over the past several weeks, US military surveillance activity along the southern border and in international airspace near Mexico has spiked dramatically, fueling speculation about the Trump administration's evolving approach to combating drug cartels. At the heart of this effort is President Trump's longstanding interest in using military force against cartels, an unprecedented move that faces significant legal, diplomatic, and strategic hurdles. While Trump has designated cartels as foreign terrorist organizations or FTOs, he signed that order, um, I think it was the day of the inauguration, I believe it was one of the first things he did.

[00:05:20] Experts note that this classification alone does not grant direct military authority to conduct strikes or raids inside Mexico. Instead, Trump could invoke broad executive powers under Article 2 of the Constitution, the War Powers Act, or even Title 50 of the United States Code, which allows covert military operations without host nation approval, though each path carries risks of escalating tensions with Mexico.

[00:05:46] Another option could involve the CIA's paramilitary Special Operations Group, uh, which has experience conducting covert operations in foreign countries. While direct assassinations are barred by executive order, the White House could argue that targeting cartel figures falls under a different legal framework as it has in past counterterrorism missions.

[00:06:06] The heightened military surveillance supports this shift in strategy, and RC-135V Rivet Joint aircraft recently conducted an unprecedented intelligence gathering flight over the Gulf of California along a region of northwest Mexico dominated by the Sinaloa Cartel. Other recent ISR flights along the southern border, which involved P-8 Poseidons and even a U-2 spy plane, indicate an effort to map cartel activity, establish patterns of life, and identify high-value targets.

[00:06:35] The use of these assets mirrors intelligence gathering efforts that preceded past US military operations, such as airstrikes in Syria. While some officials insist the flights are focused on border security and counternarcotics, others quietly speculate they could be laying the groundwork for potential military action inside Mexico.

[00:06:54] Trump has floated the idea of bombing fentanyl labs and deploying special forces to eliminate cartel leaders, raising serious concerns about the implications of unilateral US action. While the cartels are violent criminal enterprises, they differ from traditional terrorist groups in key ways. They are commercial organizations deeply embedded in Mexico's political and security structures.

[00:07:14] Moreover, unilateral US strikes could provoke fierce retaliation from cartels and create diplomatic fallout with Mexico. Who's government has already rejected external military intervention. Mexican president Claudia Sheinbaum has pledged cooperation with the US, but maintains that cartel fighting operations must remain a Mexican led effort.

[00:07:34] This confluence of legal maneuvering, intelligence gathering and military posturing suggests that Trump is seriously considering expanding military involvement in the fight against cartels. Whether this remains limited to intelligence sharing and counternarcotics support or escalates into direct military action remains uncertain, but the signs are increasingly difficult to ignore.

[00:07:53] Chris, what do you think about this one?

[00:07:55] Chris Carr: Well, my first thought was have we stepped into _Sicario_ or _Clear and Present Danger_, which obviously gets mentioned in the article. Um, yeah, which the, you know, the US military and the intelligence services take the war to the cartels. Um, it all sounds very exciting.

[00:08:09] Um, and you know, on one hand, You know, the cartels are a real problem. Um, and they've, you know, they've, uh, got a lot of blood on their hands, um, et cetera, uh, both, you know, from direct actions and then just from the products they sell. Uh, but they sort of, you know, this is sort of reminiscence of the, when President Nixon declared a war on drugs, which gave expanded powers back in the seventies to law enforcement, military tackling the illegal drug trade.

[00:08:37] And it also kind of reeks a little bit of, um, people who think that there's a military solution for everything. And I think, you know, there will be some successes, definitely. But in the long run, I doubt any military use will lead to the end of cartels. It may end, uh, may lead to the end of some organizations, but they will fracture and rebuild.

[00:08:57] Not in a dissimilar way to like how al-Qaeda I has sort of led to ISIS. Um, I think the issue of designating drug cartels, the terrorist organization, as you said, is a complex one. It does have valid arguments sort of on both sides, but, um, you know, cartels obviously do like you were saying, engage in tactics, violent tactics that are similar to terrorists.

[00:09:17] Uh, but their primary motivation is economic. So by designating them a terrorist organization is going to become very problematic if you really look at the kind of legalese around all this. Um, And obviously, Mexico has been engaged in a violent conflict for years with, or for nearly two decades now with drug cartels.

[00:09:36] Um, and, you know, the conflict results in a staggering number of deaths. And I can't say that from an outward person looking in that it looks like the Mexican authorities really have a handle on it. So there is a problem for sure. Um, and so I could understand, you know, cause obviously Mexico is on the US border and you've got problems with, is it fentanyl, the fentanyl, the drug?

[00:10:02] Matt Fulton: Yeah. Fentanyl is a big one. It's basically a sort of cheaply produced, um, synthetic version of heroin.

[00:10:08] Chris Carr: Yeah, yeah, so I can understand kind of the alarm caused by these drugs going across the border. So I don't want to sort of dismiss it and say, well, you know, because this is a very easy knee jerk reaction to this to say that, um, you know, all the drug cartels are a Mexican problem, Mexicans should deal with it. And I think they should primarily deal with it. I think maybe if the US government with its vast resources, um, came up, uh, you know, came up with a solution that involved Mexico, that would be the better option. Because I think the US military just sort of going in and, and blowing up random targets without Mexico's, um, approval, I think is really a bad way of going about this.

[00:10:50] I don't think that's going to help anybody. And I think that will probably lead to again, you've already got a problem with people trying to get across the border because some of them are escaping the cartels. You're now going to have people trying to escape, uh, US military force and the cartels. Um, and so you'll probably have an even worse border problem if, if, uh, you guys do start going in and, and, um, attacking the cartels in a, in a way similar to _Sicario_ or _Clear and Present Danger_.

[00:11:17] You mentioned earlier, obviously the, the Rivet Joint was used. Um, and the Rivet Joint, obviously for those who are not completely in the know, it's a, it's a spy plane that is used to sort of scoop up electronic and signals intelligence. Um, so it kind of looks at SIGINT, which is the primary type of data the Rivet Joints collects.

[00:11:33] It involves intercepting and analyzing electronic signals, which can be further divided into communications intelligence or COMINT. Um, and this involves intercepting and analyzing communications between individuals and groups, such as radio transmissions, phone calls, and internet communications. The Rivet Joint can listen in on enemy communications to gather information about their plans, intentions, and capabilities, then you have ELINT, which is electronic intelligence, and that's, um, involves intercepting and analyzing signals from radar systems, air defense systems, and other electronic devices, and this can be used to identify the locations and capability of quote unquote enemy forces, um, and can help then develop countermeasures to whatever they have.

[00:12:16] Then you've got the electronic order of battle or EOB or E-O-B. I'm not sure if EOB is the right acronym for that, but, um, And that's by analyzing the, um, electronic information intelligence data. The Rivet Joint helps build a comprehensive picture of the enemy's electronic warfare capabilities. Um, and kind of provides a larger picture of everything.

[00:12:38] Um, also the Rivet Joint can collect geolocation data and it can pinpoint the exact location of signal emitters, such as radio transmissions and radar systems, and obviously radar systems would be very important if you're If the US air Force get involved with doing bombing campaigns, et cetera, um, then you mentioned earlier as well, the P-8 Poseidon and the U-2 spy plane.

[00:13:01] So the P-8 was an interesting choice of plane in this scenario, because obviously it's typically for anti-submarine missions and surface warfare missions. Um, now, my first thought was maybe it's looking for narco subs, but then also I realized the P-8 has, um, a very high-resolution camera on it, which also the U-2 has as well.

[00:13:19] And to me, that suggests the planes have been, you know, the Rivet Joint has been collecting like the ELINT and figuring out where things are. And then the U-2 and the P-8 are kind of going in to get proper high resolution photographs of what these sites are and who's at, you know, what's there, you know, do the cartels have anti-aircraft stuff, et cetera.

[00:13:40] Who knows, um, I, I doubt they do, but it, you know, they might have, um, access to like stingers and stuff, but I, I can't believe the cartels in Mexico have like proper anti-aircraft systems. Um, I could be wrong. I could be wrong there. Um, but it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing that you'd be easily be able to hide in Mexico without the authorities knowing about that.

[00:13:59] Um, so yeah, so it, it's a very complicated thing. I, I, I don't know. My initial feeling is that I feel like the Trump administration, again, they're kind of using the tactic of shock, um, so are they using the tactic of shock to provoke a, a debate so the Mexican authorities come up with some sort of viable plan with, um, the American government, or, or is Trump really gonna kind of go in, quote unquote, all guns blazing and lead a kind of campaign against these cartels that do not involve, um, uh, the Mexican government, not too dissimilar to the mission that took out Bin Laden.

[00:14:36] Um, you know, because obviously by turning the, uh, cartels into a terrorist organization, it opens up new legal powers that the president could evoke to be able to do this. So, yeah. So I, yeah. What are your thoughts on all this, Matt?

[00:14:50] Matt Fulton: This is, uh, an issue that I think I said in the first, our first episode right after the, uh, inauguration when we were talking about, you know, how, how we were going to cover the administration and stuff.

[00:15:00] This is one of the things I said, I'm supportive of this in theory, um, but the specifics of how high they plan to turn up the heat and what role the Mexican government will play here to me are key on whether or not this is a good idea. You know, it's not like the idea of going after the cartels in theory, yes, I'm supportive of that, but it really depends on how you're going to do it and, and to what degree the Mexicans are going to be, um, involved here. I mean, in the last 15 to 20 years, I mean, yeah, we talk about, you know, the, these cartels being designated as FTOs or foreign terrorist, um, organizations, in the last 15 to 20 years, far more Americans have died by fentanyl or other narcotics that are pushed by these cartels, right, than have been killed by terrorism in that time. And so, you know, should that, we should respond in kind, I think is a very compelling argument. I find that to be a very compelling argument.

[00:15:55] Um, I honestly think this is a place where Democrats should have taken this more seriously. Um, I mean, this has come up a couple of times in the last few, uh, administrations, you know, um, this, this question. Um, That, that said, uh, you know, the, the idea of like coming back to the question of Mexico's involvement, Mexico's cooperation here.

[00:16:20] There are a host of sort of legal and, and diplomatic issues for the Mexicans, um, as well. So like the Mexican Senate has to approve, has to approve deployments of foreign troops in the country. There's numerous other legal restrictions that govern how much cooperation, uh, Mexican authorities can provide.

[00:16:38] There's also just the issue of a lot of Mexican, a lot of units inside Mexico's security services and the armed forces are, uh, co-opted by the cartels to quite a, to quite a degree. So there's, you know, um, the internal threat issue of what units are more trusted than others. And that's definitely, you know, I'm sure that's something that, that we're considering right now.

[00:17:00] Um, allowing the US military to use force inside Mexico has always been sort of a political, uh, red line, um, for, for, for the country. However, I mean, would we have respected the Taliban's wishes for us not to enter Afghanistan and go after al-Qaeda, after 9/11? No, we wouldn't have. Um, that said, the Mexican government isn't the Taliban and Mexico isn't Afghanistan.

[00:17:25] Um, so it's important to make that, um, distinction. Um, that to me is, is very important. I mean, so a CIA-run covert action under Title 50 of US Code or some JSOC task force that is attached to CIA's covert action authorities, um, does I think fall into a sort of different, uh, uh, political or, or legal gray area.

[00:17:49] Um, but that cooperation would also be contingent upon absolutely zero loss of life or property for Mexican civilians. Um, and all of this gets far more needlessly complicated if you're engaged in a trade war with Mexico while all this is going on. Um, so, I mean, it's, it's, it's, does this look like we can, you know, if you want to get into the specifics of what I would be interested in doing if I was up on the seventh floor at Langley, you know, thinking about this means something of this scale, you would really want to run it out of the National Security Council anyway, because it's, it's, it's bigger than just the CIA or even JSOC. But, um.

[00:18:28] Chris Carr: One question, sorry.

[00:18:29] Matt Fulton: Yeah.

[00:18:29] Chris Carr: Where would the DEA fit into this? Cause surely this is their remit, isn't it, over the CIA?

[00:18:34] Matt Fulton: Yeah, that's, that's an interesting sort of question. Okay, let's, let's unpack that. There are, um, templates, past examples of the US military working with an ally, with an allied government in Latin America to combat the drug trade within their country.

[00:18:52] I mean, you look at, um, of the support that JSOC and the intelligence community gave to Colombian special forces to go after the Medellin Cartel and Pablo Escobar, detailed quite well in Mark Bowden's book, _Killing Pablo._ There is an arm of JSOC. Originally, they were called the Intelligence Support Activity.

[00:19:14] Um, their codename has changed often over the years, but at the time when we were going after Pablo Escobar, they were called CENTRA SPIKE. Um, and this is at a time when, you know, the concept of, um, SIGINT and intercepting cell phone calls was very sort of new and novel, right? So, um, the Medellin Cartel, they were big, uh, advocates of using, um, cell phones for their communication instead of like wired, uh, other sort of terrestrial radio systems in like, you know, wired kind of phone systems. Um, they believed wrongly that cell phones, um, couldn't be, uh, intercepted and, um, CENTRA SPIKE, uh, had all kinds of operations that they put into Columbia to intercept those, um, those cell phone signals, those, those cell phone calls.

[00:20:03] Um, You know, there, there was a bunch of support that we gave to the Colombians to track down Pablo Escobar, but it was arguable that when Pablo Escobar was killed running across a roof from his safe house, he was, um, arguably shot by a Delta Force sniper. Um, you know, if you want to get a bit more contemporary into the late nineties and the two thousands.

[00:20:24] There's also Plan Colombia, which was sort of a FID, a foreign internal defense, um, mission that we had a very successful one working with the Colombians to combat, uh, FARC, which is a, um, they're essentially now defunct, but a, uh, Marxist, um, insurgency that use the drug trade to, um, fuel their operations, right?

[00:20:45] Chris Carr: Yeah. That's an interesting, interesting example because obviously they were a terrorist organization, but got into dealing in drugs to finance themselves, which is quite interesting.

[00:20:55] Matt Fulton: Right. So, and there's also the issue of, um, fentanyl precursor chemicals that are manufactured in China and shipped to Mexico.

[00:21:04] Um, I would want to be curious, you know, could we interdict, could we identify and interdict those ships or even push the covert action envelope a bit further and look to disrupt that production in China? Um, so there's, you know, there's kind of two different ways of doing this, right? There's the mysterious fires and explosions, such as that we've seen in Russia since the war in Ukraine began, right?

[00:21:33] That's one thing that I could, I could get behind. I think that would be an interesting and perhaps very productive way of doing this. There's also, you know, for example, parking a carrier group off of Mexico's Pacific coast and having F-18s bomb warehouses in Culiacán. And I think that latter example is a great plan if you also want a couple of Chinese military bases in Mexico by 2030, um, that would be my big concern is if you're going to come in like swinging dicks and tell the Mexicans, no, this is what we're going to do, and you're going to let us do it, and if there's some collateral damage, deal with it. Um, that's, that's a, that's a big issue.

[00:22:10] So rather than generating a target set and going down the list, blowing each one up, I'd want to gather an impeccable and perhaps these flights speak to this. There's a lot more intelligence gathering going on right now than just the flights that you can see on Flightradar.

[00:22:26] Chris Carr: Oh yeah.

[00:22:27] Matt Fulton: Um, I want to gather an impeccable intelligence window into the core workings and internal politics of these cartels before I took a shot at anybody.

[00:22:37] Um, I'd want to know if I press this button here, uh, what's going to happen way far down the other side of the web. Does that mean creating divisions and stoking strife and distrust within the cartels and you're somewhat getting into, you know, _Sicario_ territory. Um, how will these actions affect the drug market here in the United States?

[00:23:00] Uh, I'd also want to bring in the DEA and work closely with their field offices and state and local law enforcement on strategically making arrests and, and seizures of, um, narcotic supplies, uh, on, on these cartels distribution networks in the US and, you know, how can that be timed and calibrated with what say CIA and JSOC is doing inside Mexico to maximize the kind of chaos that you're inflicting on this whole industry, right?

[00:23:28] Um, CIA and, and, and the US treasury, I think should also have a role in cyberspace and in financial markets, manipulating the underpinnings of, of the whole, um, industry, you know, you'd want to inflict maximum damage, disorder, and financial loss with as little kinetic force as possible. And I think that's, I think that's really key here.

[00:23:51] Um, any plan also has to take a comprehensive approach with the issues that fuel the cartel problem in Mexico, which is of course, Americans' appetite and demand for narcotics. I mean, that's.

[00:24:03] Chris Carr: Well, yeah.

[00:24:04] Matt Fulton: That's a million dollar question. I mean, we've been trying to figure that out since the seventies, right?

[00:24:09] With the War on Drugs and haven't had much success overall, um, in the long run. Uh, there's also the issue of the supply of weapons from the US into Mexico, which is how the cartels arm themselves. You have to address that. And the, um, the economic problems that Mexico's tourism industry will suffer when Americans can no longer safely travel there because we're at war with the cartels and they all now have any American inside Mexico now has a massive target, um, on their back.

[00:24:37] Chris Carr: Very good point. Very good point.

[00:24:39] Yeah. International, cause also basically any, anybody who looks like they could be American, whether they're American or not will suddenly become a target and um, yeah.

[00:24:48] Matt Fulton: Well, that's something that you, when you consider a plan such as this, where I think it's really serious about, you know, taking the fight directly to the cartels, um, and you designate them a terrorist organization, your actions could, when they respond, could look quite like a traditional terrorist organization.

[00:25:06] You know, I know this has been, and the idea of confronting these cartels, um, is a real concern that, uh, US law enforcement, intelligence, military personnel in the US or their families could be made targets by this. Um, I mean, the cartels, even through the cartels himself, even through like street gangs, you know, like MS-13, Mexican Mafia, um, organized crime groups like that in the US, they're sort of used by the cartels as like subcontractors on the ground here, right? As like enforcers. Um, So they have deep reach into every part of the country. It's not just border communities that we're talking about here, right? These cartels have deep reach into every corner of the country to a degree that ISIS or al-Qaeda has never even remotely come close to.

[00:25:52] Chris Carr: Very true.

[00:25:53] Matt Fulton: When you consider that force protection issue here, to me, that's not an argument against doing this at all, but I think that has to be, you know, you have to, as you're planning this, you have to account for that threat and take proactive measures to mitigate it before you do it. Like, know that Americans could see extreme levels of violence here in the country as a consequence of what we start doing against these cartels in Mexico.

[00:26:20] You just have to be realistic about that.

[00:26:22] Chris Carr: Well, one guest on this show many years ago, Robert Mazur, he, he's the guy who was played by Bryan Cranston in a film called _The Infiltrators_. He was a guest in the show, and he could not show his face in public because he's still a target of the cartels.

[00:26:38] Matt Fulton: Yeah.

[00:26:38] Chris Carr: Um, so when he, when I interviewed him, I was dealing with a black screen.

[00:26:43] That's how serious it is, how much of a reach they have. So anybody involved, um, will potentially be on a cartel hit list. And, um, you know, they live in LA or wherever, any major US city. They could.

[00:26:57] Matt Fulton: Not just LA. Anywhere. Up here in the Northeast, the mid, the midwest, the Pacific Northwest, any part of the country they could, they could reach into.

[00:27:05] Chris Carr: Yeah, yeah, so it's, uh, there will definitely be some sort of, uh, blowback if you're not careful. So, you know, one, well, one would hope cool heads would prevail with this, um, I wonder if, um, Trump's desire to appear like he's doing something might, uh, cause, uh, action to happen sooner rather than later, um, which may not be as well thought out as it could be, um, so I don't know.

[00:27:31] Matt Fulton: That's the thing. I mean, there is a, a responsible, well-calibrated, thoughtful, and probably tactically and strategically effective way to do this, right? There's also a very kind of dumb way. Like, are you just producing content for Fox News, or do you actually want to solve the problem? You know, like, you can't have Pete Hegseth calling into _Fox and Friends_ every morning and saying, "Hey, here's updated numbers on how many, um, fentanyl labs were blown up and sicarios deleted by our classified JSOC task force operating in Mexico."

[00:28:04] Like you, you can't, you can't do that, you know?

[00:28:06] Chris Carr: Hasn't worked in the War on Terror, really.

[00:28:08] Matt Fulton: So no, so there's a performative dumb way of doing this. There is a smart, um, thoughtful way of doing this, but to me, that very much goes the Title 50 covert action route inside Mexico, which means you don't talk about it and you very carefully coordinate back here in the US with DEA, local law enforcement, FBI, other kind of partner organizations to really come at this problem from all directions. And that includes a lot of cultural issues here in the US as I said, to the demand for drugs, right? The supply of, of guns and weaponry to the cartels coming the other way across the border, right? Um, it's not as. I think there is a desire to make this seem like a very sort of simple thing that we can just snap our fingers and just sort of delete these cartels. It's a lot harder than that. And to me, so, like I said, I'm supportive of this in theory, um, but it depends how they're going to do this.

[00:29:08] Chris Carr: And, and, you know, as you mentioned, the more interesting debate I think is why people want to use drugs in the first place, because if you can, um, kill off that demand, then it, you know, the drug trade would start to collapse. But that's, you know, it's a bit like wishing, "Hey, let's stop doing crime." You know, we don't need the police anymore.

[00:29:28] Matt Fulton: Let's, let's just do world peace. Let's stop war and crime and poverty. And like, yeah, I'm not going to pretend to even remotely have an answer to that.

[00:29:36] Chris Carr: No, exactly.

[00:29:40] So it's, um, no, it's a very drug, the whole drug, um, the War on Drugs and the whole drug trade is a very complicated matter. Um, but I do. I do find like, um, you know, in, in the, the media industry, et cetera, um, there is drug taking, um, and I know people who've taken drugs, et cetera.

[00:30:01] Um, and I always, I personally have never liked drugs because I'm well aware of the food chain of drugs, which is pretty, pretty bad. The cartels, it's the murder, it's the, you know, deaths of people over this horrible trade. And that's been the single thing, um, that has always been in my mind, um, you know, and so if anybody's ever offered me drugs, I'm just like, no, I don't want to be a part of that at all.

[00:30:24] You know, it's horrid, really horrid. So, um, if anybody's gonna snort a line of cocaine this weekend, please bear in mind the food chain of the cocaine that you're consuming because it's, um, But, um, obviously I do know there are addiction issues, um, et cetera. Not everybody, you know, somebody might take a drug as a choice to begin with, but then their addiction might take over and no longer becomes a choice.

[00:30:46] So there are big complicated, socio-economic issues around drugs that also need to be dealt with as long as well as taking on the cartels. As exciting as it sounds and I'm sure it will generate you know _Narcos_ season six or when we find out the full story of what happened, you know, I'm sure it'll make some great TV and books and stuff.

[00:31:11] Um, and you never know, we might end up interviewing people involved in all this. But, um, you know, I'd like to see it as part of a wider plan that kind of tackles the, the bigger issues around drugs. Because I think just blowing up some labs, a bit like with terrorism, it doesn't really, you may get rid of one terrorist organization, but another one will fall in its place.

[00:31:29] So, yeah.

[00:31:30] Matt Fulton: My biggest concern is there is a potential if this is not done responsibly to push our southern neighbor, um, directly into the arms of China.

[00:31:42] Chris Carr: Yes.

[00:31:43] Matt Fulton: And there's also the consider of, you know, the Mexican American community here and how they see themselves as Americans versus Mexicans. And, you know, there's a potential to really kind of just radicalize that whole population against the United States in a very kind of unintended and, and you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[00:32:05] Yeah. If you do this wrong.

[00:32:06] Chris Carr: Definitely. And sadly, Mexicans are at the brunt of a lot of the anti-immigration side of the Trump administration at the moment. So it's, it's, yeah, it all feeds in very nastily into all this. Yeah.

[00:32:18] Matt Fulton: This is a group that, you know, if you look at, in the Big Bend sort of area of Texas, you know, Southern Texas, along these border communities and stuff, predominantly Mexican American, these are communities that in the last sort of two election cycles shifted strongly in Trump's favor.

[00:32:33] So how that all plays out is a very, I find this all very interesting. It's all connected.

[00:32:38] Chris Carr: Yeah, I think, for me, my feeling is Catholicism, Catholicism plays a part of that, but I could be wrong.

[00:32:45] Matt Fulton: Absolutely, yeah.

[00:32:46] Chris Carr: I could be wrong.

[00:32:46] Matt Fulton: Yeah.

[00:32:47] Chris Carr: But, uh, yeah, that's definitely a topic for another episode, um, but, uh, no, we'll keep an eye out on what's going on with the cartels.

[00:32:55] Is there anything else you'd like to add to that, Matt?

[00:32:57] Matt Fulton: No, I think we should, um, pay attention to it and see, see how it, see how it moves along.

[00:33:02] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. We'll keep an eye on that. And, um, should any more information come up, obviously we'll bring it up on a future episode. So let's move on to, uh, a story that is affecting the US at the moment.

[00:33:14] And in particular, the NSA, the National Security Agency. So there's an article titled the "NSA's Big Delete". That was by Judd Legum and Rebecca Crosby for the _Popular Information_ Substack. Um, so the key points of the article are that the NSA is preparing to delete all content from its website and internal networks containing 27 banned words, like privilege, bias, and inclusion in compliance with Trump's executive order, which is targeting diversity, equity, and inclusion, DEI. This sweeping action is causing unintended disruptions to mission critical content, as many banned terms are also used in non DEI contexts such as cyber security. The deletion process is described as chaotic, with insufficient personnel to manually review content for false positives. Um, interns are assisting in minimizing errors, but the NSA anticipates unintended downtime for critical mission related sites due to the broad scope of the purge.

[00:34:16] Since the administration began, uh, thousands of federal web pages have been altered or removed across agencies and they affect resources and topics like LGBTQ+ health, climate change, and racial equality. Words like diversity and inclusion were deleted hundreds of times from various departments and references to transgender individuals were removed from federal websites.

[00:34:39] The broad censorship has sparked criticism and legal action. For example, Doctors for America sued the Trump administration for removing health resources from government websites, arguing that it deprives clinicians and researchers of essential tools for patient care. So, uh, Matt, I don't know what your thoughts are on all this.

[00:34:59] It's definitely, um, I'm quite concerned about all of this.

[00:35:01] Matt Fulton: I think in practice, this is probably a function of just clicking Control F and searching through these, you know, newly forbidden words, these, these, these wrong thoughts, and just sort of trying to just take a sledgehammer to anything that remotely looks like it could be DEI, which to me, if that's not the action of a blind zealot, I don't know what is, you know, regardless of whether or not it is have anything to do with DEI or the things that you think DEI are right anyway, intelligence isn't about validating pre existing beliefs, it's about getting to the truth.

[00:35:36] And the second analysts start filtering out information that contradicts their expectations, they stop doing their jobs. Um, all of this, I know there's probably, there's definitely quite a few people who are former, um, intelligence analysts or worked in the intelligence community or perhaps are still connected to the community.

[00:35:53] All of this will be nothing new to them, I'm sure. Um, history is littered with intelligence failures caused by confirmation bias. So the US downplaying Japanese naval capabilities before Pearl Harbor, uh, the CIA overestimating the Soviet economy during the Cold War and what it was able to sustain, right?

[00:36:12] Uh, and the misreading of Iraq's WMD program all have roots in analysts favoring data that fits their assumptions or tailoring it to what they assume their policymakers, their customers want, right? So, Adversaries know confirmation bias is a weakness as well, and actively feed false narratives that align with what policymakers or intelligence services want to hear, what they think they want to hear, right?

[00:36:38] So disinformation campaigns succeed when they reinforce pre existing narratives. Russia's playbook relies on feeding the West's own biases back to it, whether through manipulated social media or planted sources. Look at how often Soviet propaganda during the Cold War exploited the civil rights movement in the US, right?

[00:36:59] All their efforts, all their propaganda efforts that were aimed at the Black community here, right. Trying to sort of undermine their sense of American patriotism. You know, like, why are you, why are you serving this country that so vehemently despises you? You know, just because of your skin color, the Soviets pushed that stuff quite heavily because they knew it was a wedge issue that would fit and played to biases inside US culture, right?

[00:37:22] Um, intelligence isn't just about collection. It's about informing action, and if decision makers are only getting intelligence that confirms their assumptions, they'll make bad calls. As we said, the lead up to the Iraq War is a case study here. Policy makers wanted evidence of WMDs, and the intelligence community delivered it, ignoring or downplaying contradictory reports.

[00:37:44] And from that, we got the Iraq War. I ask, why the "no more stupid wars" crowd keeps making decisions that seem guaranteed to get us more stupid wars? I leave that question for the audience. Uh, avoiding confirmation bias isn't about ideology. It's about professionalism. The best analysts understand that their personal views don't matter.

[00:38:06] What matters is what the facts say. Intelligence should never be about finding what you want to be true. It's about finding what is true, no matter how uncomfortable. Now, training analysts to recognize their own biases should be seen as fundamental as tradecraft itself. And I think some of what you've seen here at NSA will filter down to professional development and trainings that are used to, to instruct analysts on how to recognize confirmation bias and, and prevent it in their own reporting will probably suffer here because that will seem like evil DEI and we can't have that.

[00:38:42] Right?

[00:38:42] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:43] Matt Fulton: Um, Structured analytic techniques like devil's advocacy, red teaming, competing hypotheses all exist for a reason. They force analysts to consider alternative explanations and look at evidence they'd otherwise miss. Um, Organizations should actively discourage dissenting views.

[00:38:59] That's not just true of the intelligence community. That's true of any large organization, even small organizations. Um, if anyone, if everyone in the room agrees, something's probably being overlooked. Um, So, the fact that the NSA is reportedly deleting references to confirmation bias is almost self-parody, I think, at this point.

[00:39:19] Um, if the intelligence community can't even name the problem, how does it expect to avoid it? Uh, you don't eliminate bias by pretending it doesn't exist. You eliminate it by acknowledging it, challenging it, and making sure it doesn't cloud your judgment, or the information that you offer up to your customers, the policy makers.

[00:39:37] That's what I think.

[00:39:38] Chris Carr: Yeah, well, isn't, isn't one of the fundamental parts of your country's constitution about freedom of speech and like, you know, how does that work in a, uh, when we start having lists of words that are now forbidden or books that are being banned? It's just, it's ridiculous.

[00:39:56] Matt Fulton: Well, it's against the spirit of the First Amendment and freedom of speech, I think, but I think.

[00:40:04] A lot of this is people weaponizing the First Amendment and trying to bastardize it to mean things it fundamentally does not mean, right? So the First Amendment means that the government cannot charge you with a crime for saying something, right? Like in Germany, if Elon did that "I give my heart to you" kind of gesture.

[00:40:25] He'd be arrested immediately, right? In the US the First Amendment says you can, you You can do that, right? It's not illegal to do that. However, the First Amendment does not protect you from consequences for saying things that are widely seen as disgusting or distasteful. Um, it doesn't mean that everyone else has to kind of just go along and not criticize you for it, right?

[00:40:48] We have the First Amendment right to say that's awful. Um, I don't want to associate with you.

[00:40:55] Chris Carr: Yeah, we're just sort of getting into dystopian novel territory of having lists of banned words. I just find it totally alien concept that we suddenly now, there are agencies that can't say certain words. And especially about diversity, as you were saying, you know, diversity is a very important thing.

[00:41:11] And especially in national security, you know, you mentioned World War II. What I would say is the brilliant minds of men and women, both straight, gay, neurodiverse, disabled, of different races, who came together and effectively outsmarted Nazi Germany, because Nazi Germany's biggest flaw was a lack of physical and intellectual diversity.

[00:41:30] And, um, you know, Alan Turing, a gay man who cracked the Enigma Code, who basically saved lives and maybe even shortened the war. And yet, In this, um, new sort of territory moving into, you know, he would probably be banned from working for the NSA because he's a gay man. It's ridiculous.

[00:41:49] Matt Fulton: Well, Alan Turing is a hard thing for me to talk about.

[00:41:51] Cause it's one of those things that I'll just get irrationally pissed off.

[00:41:54] Chris Carr: And he wasn't treated well in his lifetime either. Let's be honest about that too.

[00:41:57] Matt Fulton: No, I'll leave that. I'll leave that alone. As far as I don't think the NSA are passing policies that would like, you know, ban them from hiring a gay analyst or something.

[00:42:09] I don't, I don't know that that's.

[00:42:11] Chris Carr: Well, this war on DEI feels like we're going that way. I could be wrong.

[00:42:15] Matt Fulton: It creates a cultural assumption, right? That like, there's been, other accounts in the last few weeks of agencies getting these directives from OPM, from the White House saying, you know, you can't, we're not doing X, Y, and Z regarding DEI anymore, right?

[00:42:34] And how that is interpreted in ways that are like Just bad in so many ways, you know, like there is a display at the NSA's in-house museum, the National Cryptologic Museum, um, you know, pioneers in, in cryptologic services or something. And it was, um, it was. Analysts and, and, and officers who came from these minority groups, right?

[00:42:59] This display at the museum was covered up with like black, I'm sorry, with like brown, like butcher's paper. And there was an outcry about it on social media and it got removed and they were like, no, no, no, no, that's not, that's not what we want to do. I think what happened there was someone saw these directives coming down from on high and interpreted that as, Oh, we should probably cover that up.

[00:43:19] And I think. That is. More realistically, the issues that you have here, you know, like I know what happened here with with NSA with these with these words of which confirmation bias was one of them, right, you sort of control F and go through and anything that has these forbidden phrases. Okay, get rid of it without any consideration of.

[00:43:41] Being aware of and trying to combat, uh, and, and train against confirmation bias in intelligence analysis and reporting has nothing to do with these, you know, hot button controversial social issues in the United States. I think any sane person would recognize that, but if you're just coming through and just, you know, leveling anything that even remotely sounds like it, that's how you make these stupid mistakes.

[00:44:05] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, indeed. And in the article you mentioned that obviously now this is wasting resources away from important things that the NSA should be doing because now the NSA effectively are chasing their own tails internally trying to comply with this, this situation. It's, yeah, it's ridiculous. So it's, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, I know DEI initiatives are imperfect.

[00:44:30] I have certain issues of certain ways they're taught, but this is not how you improve them.

[00:44:36] Matt Fulton: Definitely in need of tweaking, but you know, swinging the pendulum back this far is just so, again, this is example with some of the, the issues with, with fighting the cartels, you're cutting off your noses to spite your face.

[00:44:48] Um, you know, you, you just take it, you take it way too far. And, and some of the, some of the things that are done to sort of correct, they would say, you know, some of these programs, it's just, it's, it's to me, it's nothing, if not the work of a blind zealot.

[00:45:05] Chris Carr: Yeah, indeed. No, it's definitely not gonna improve anything.

[00:45:08] And if anything, um, then there'll be a kind of counter move to all this in time that might be even worse than the current, um, Yeah, because my issue with the DEI at the moment, obviously, is it's not very well sort of regulated the way it's taught. So you get very vastly different experiences depending on who your tutor is.

[00:45:26] And I've filmed and participate in a few, um, uh, kind of workshops. And, you know, some of them do kind of go very deeply into kind of Marxist philosophy about the way of looking at the world, which I just don't think really helps anybody. It just sort of, um, if anything, it confuses people. Um, I've, I've always felt it should be more focused on sort of empathy and just understanding that not everybody is playing with the same deck of cards as you, um, and to treat every individual with respect no matter what.

[00:45:57] I think the other downside of DEI is it's sort of everybody's suddenly become very hyper aware of people's background, but then, um, they're assuming they're still making assumptions about people based on their physicality, when really, you should judge people by their character, um, and, you know, deal with the, I've always believed in, deal with the person in front of you.

[00:46:23] No matter where they come from, who they are, what accent they have, whatever they look like, who are you dealing with there and then, what are they telling you about themselves? Just listen to them. And that's the only thing you could do. Um, and, and I think more practical advice like that would be more useful in a lot of this DEI training, which unfortunately I find at the moment is some of it just gets very out there.

[00:46:46] But it again, doesn't excuse what the Trump administration are doing, because I think this is not the way to deal with that because, um, you know, there should be a better way to, um, set a standard and a world standard with it, really.

[00:47:00] Matt Fulton: I think it's imminently possible for an intelligence agency as large as the NSA to, the largest intelligence agency that we have within the community by far, especially if you include the sort of services, the armed services, cryptologic elements that kind of plug in and support the entire enterprise, you know, you could even, extend the aperture out to include all of US Cyber Command if you wanted to. Like, colossal organization, right? Thousands of people all over the world. Um, it's possible for the NSA and the CSS to calibrate those programs in such ways that you described without banning use of the term confirmation bias, right? Which has all kinds of dumb, unintended consequences.

[00:47:47] Chris Carr: Yeah, yeah, indeed, indeed. And I, I always find it ironic, the people who talk a lot about bias tend to be the most biased people themselves.

[00:47:55] Matt Fulton: Yes.

[00:47:55] Chris Carr: By rule of thumb. So, uh, there we go. Well, um, is there anything else you'd like to add to that, Matt?

[00:48:03] Matt Fulton: Nope.

[00:48:04] Chris Carr: So our next story is how President Trump says he wants Ukraine's rare earth elements as a condition for further support.

[00:48:12] So this is, um, I'm going to just give some key points from an AP News article by Zeke Miller. President Trump indicates that he wants to condition continued US military and economic support for Ukraine on securing access to the country's rare earth materials which are critical to the high tech economy.

[00:48:30] He claimed Ukraine is open to such a deal. Trump criticized the disproportionate level of US assistance to Ukraine compared to European nations and emphasized the need for tangible returns stating, We're putting in hundreds of billions of dollars, they have great rare earth and I want security of the rare earth. Trump suggested that.

[00:48:55] Matt Fulton: What?

[00:48:56] Chris Carr: That's apparently what he said.

[00:48:57] Matt Fulton: Proceed. Proceed. Proceed. Carry on.

[00:49:00] Chris Carr: Trump suggested that talks underway to end the Russia Ukraine conflict claiming a lot of progress has been made and he reiterated his goal to quickly stop what he called the ridiculous war. Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky stressed that any negotiations about Ukraine without his direct involvement are unacceptable and dangerous.

[00:49:21] While acknowledging a general level contact with the Trump administration, he emphasized the need for more detailed in person discussions. So Matt, what are your thoughts on all of this?

[00:49:32] Matt Fulton: Yeah, this, uh, the situation around these negotiations is kind of very It's fast moving and kind of beyond the scope of what we were just talking about here with their rare earth materials.

[00:49:42] I've never been quite entirely, um, at least since the election, been filled with kind of like dread and and despair as far as the Ukraine situation has been I know there are definitely people listening who feel differently. Perhaps as this develops going forward, I will be brought to feel the same way as well.

[00:50:06] My sort of operative, like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to pay attention to how Zelensky feels, what he says and how he seems to feel about these negotiations. And if he starts to freak out and gets upset, then okay, I will weigh that more heavily than people on Bluesky, you know, saying that this is bad.

[00:50:25] Like, if Zelensky seems okay with this, okay, fine, I will, I will cool it a bit, you know, um, There were statements that Pete Hegseth made, I believe it was yesterday, as we were recording this in Brussels about, um, how, uh, there'll be no US peacekeeping forces, about how it's not realistic for, uh, Ukraine to go back to its pre-2014, um, borders and all that stuff.

[00:50:53] And, you know, whether I think it is objectively true that it is not realistic for Ukraine to go back to its pre-2014 borders, I find it interesting, though, that the Trump administration and all these sort of other issues of foreign policy, whether it's the tariffs in Canada or Mexico or with whatever dumb shit they want to do with Greenland, they start at this sort of maximum strength, maximum pressure negotiating position, right?

[00:51:19] They start way the hell up here. And then, you know, that's where they start negotiations. And then it sort of gets brought back down to earth. I do find it interesting that they can't bring themselves to apply that same tactic here.

[00:51:30] Chris Carr: Yeah, that's a very good point.

[00:51:31] Matt Fulton: I would ask that question as to why,

[00:51:33] Chris Carr: Hmm.

[00:51:34] Matt Fulton: Why aren't we starting with maximum pressure madman Trump theory with the Russians and negotiating on Ukraine.

[00:51:40] Chris Carr: So yeah, John Bolton asked about that too, because he believes that he's saying that Trump surrendered to Putin.

[00:51:48] Matt Fulton: As far as how these negotiations will actually look and the question of rare earth materials and stuff, uh, that could be provided to, to, to the US. Okay. Um, like it's, it's, let's see the details, you know, at least that's where I am right now.

[00:52:04] Um, uh, I think it would require a lot of investment in the sectors of the Ukrainian economy for them to be able to extract, refine, and, and export this stuff. I'm not nearly an expert on what would be required for that, but that's also a concern. Um, I also think this could be a critical way for Ukraine to sort of rebuild the country, right?

[00:52:27] All the infrastructure, everything has been destroyed, you know, entire cities flattened over the course of this war. So I don't want to strip them of these natural resources. Um, just because, you know, I think this really has to be handled, um, ethically, but as far as the larger question about Ukraine and everything, we're going to be talking about this a lot more, um, in, in the coming weeks as this ramps up.

[00:52:51] However, like I said, I do find it interesting that they have sort of no ability to start with that maximum pressure, madman strength, um, alpha male kind of, uh, uh, sorry, maximum strength, alpha male kind of, uh, vibe that they do with everything else. Why they can't bring that to the table here negotiating with Ukraine about Ukraine.

[00:53:11] I don't, I don't. Open question for me.

[00:53:14] Chris Carr: Yeah, it's a very good open question. And, um, yeah, uh, it does. Trump always seems to behave very differently when it comes to Russia. I don't know exactly why, but I've certainly noticed it myself. But, um, you know, Pete Hegseth ruled out NATO membership, um, which again, It's something that helps Russia.

[00:53:36] And again, that's a card that they've just slapped on the table. Um, yeah. And sorry, you were about to say something.

[00:53:43] Matt Fulton: It's one of those things that like, you know, as far as going back to the pre-2014 borders, realistically, and I think we could have said this if Kamala Harris had won the election too, any settlement to end this war, unless you're going to fight for a couple more years, right, and really sort of, try to put yourself in the advantage to, to put yourself in an advantageous position to, to demand this.

[00:54:09] They're not in a position right now to, to get back to the pre-2014 borders. Nor are they in a position to sort of demand NATO membership. It's not. You know what I'm saying here? Like, that's not, that, that, that, that, it, he's right. That isn't a, a reasonable thing to, to expect with a, with peace negotiations if you're going to start them right now.

[00:54:31] Right? However.

[00:54:32] Chris Carr: But headlining with that is just problematic.

[00:54:35] Matt Fulton: Exactly. Why are you starting with that? You know, you may behind the scenes think, yeah, that's not, that's probably not going to happen. That's probably not going to actually what we're going to get at the end of the day here, but why are you starting with that?

[00:54:45] Why are you taking that card and that threat off the table? Right? Because we know how, how much that incenses the Russians, the idea of Ukraine being in NATO. They've earned the right to be a NATO. I think they would be arguably one of the most effective members of, of NATO if they were to join, you know, um.

[00:55:06] Chris Carr: Well, yeah, if they, I, I'm personally for if they can qualify, they should join because obviously then to join NATO, you can't be in an active conflict and have a dispute about your borders, I believe, is the issue that prevents them because obviously NATO don't want a new member to suddenly invoke Article 5 the second they come in the door because, um, that's not great.

[00:55:28] Matt Fulton: I just want to make sure it's clear here what I'm, and tell me if I'm not being clear here, that the sort of split between Ukraine deserves NATO membership, they would be a, a, incredible asset to the alliance, right?

[00:55:45] However, it's not quite realistic to expect that they would get that in a peace negotiation deal if you start those negotiations right now. However, why is the administration just sort of throwing that card away in, in what it, in how it approaches the Russians right now? Is that, am I being clear about that?

[00:56:03] Chris Carr: No, no, no, that is clear. That is clear. And it just immediately feels like appeasement. That's what it feels like.

[00:56:08] Matt Fulton: Yes. That they don't quite do with anyone else.

[00:56:11] Chris Carr: No, which is suspicious. It's the polite way to put it, but I'd sure we won't go too far into that. But um, one thing President Zelensky said that obviously if Donald Trump withdraws US support for Ukraine, Europe alone will be unable to fill the gap.

[00:56:27] He also said he would offer lucrative rebuilding contracts to get Trump on his side, which Trump was aware of all this before Wednesday's phone call with, uh, um, with Putin and, uh, and then Hegseth's comments after that. So, obviously, Trump isn't that, he doesn't appear that, uh, bothered by the, the, uh, rebuilding contracts, et cetera.

[00:56:50] Um, even this talk of the, the kind of materials has sort of vanished slightly. Um, so it's, it's a bit of a weird one.

[00:56:58] Matt Fulton: He approaches every negotiation. I think this is kind of all he knows. It's the only, it's the only lens through which he's able to see the world. He approaches everything as if he's negotiating a deal for granite countertops for some condo in New York.

[00:57:12] Right?

[00:57:13] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah. Hence the Gaza comments. Not long ago as well. It's like, it's like he wants to rebuild Atlantic City. It's like, it's not quite Atlantic City.

[00:57:22] Matt Fulton: Deals are his art form. And if you've been to Atlantic City recently, it's not exactly a stellar example of success. Um, but yeah, you know, I mean, and that's also one of the things too, like I think, you know, And we, we've talked about this, how I feel that, you know, whereas I believe the US should always be there as a key sort of partner and guarantor of European security, and I would extend this to Ukraine as well, it cannot be the only guarantor of European security. The Europeans really need to step up and not keep unilaterally disarming. So you know, our defense budget can account for that while the Europeans get to spend that money on all these great social services that American taxpayers don't have themselves. It's not fair.

[00:58:13] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

[00:58:14] Matt Fulton: Um, and there's a, there's a middle line between like the US abandoning NATO and withdrawing all its forces from Europe as opposed to like alone being Europe's entire defense apparatus, you know, does that make sense?

[00:58:30] Chris Carr: It does. It does. And I think, and I think certainly in the early 2000s, you know, Europe was on this sort of mindset of disarming and obviously peace activism was very big, et cetera.

[00:58:41] And, um, you know, and I think that there wasn't much of a will to, I mean, Germany was, uh, came up as a point of criticism for many years because they were behind on their GDP contributions to NATO, et cetera, and they were refusing to rebuild their tank forces, et cetera. Obviously, the war in Ukraine became a bit of a wake up call, but I think now, Yeah, I still don't think that Europe's really in a position to properly defend itself at this time.

[00:59:08] Um, especially the US did walk away from it, and I think that's an issue. And I think, and for good and bad, the one thing with the appointment of Trump again, I think this should spark a debate in Europe about how to survive without American support because, um, You know, because unfortunately every few years, America does seem to elect somebody who's a bit, um, unsavory, if you put it that way, to European sensibilities.

[00:59:35] Matt Fulton: I would really, I would pray that that is just an anomaly of the last decade, you know, that we keep going to going through this kind of cycle, you know, um, I would, yeah, would pray that that is not how it's going to be forever and always, but I don't know. I don't know that. And yeah, it's, it's, it's. It's wise for y'all to get serious about your own security.

[00:59:57] Um, yeah, yeah.

[00:59:58] Chris Carr: Cause there's this talk in, um, certain parts of Europe. I know when I was talking to, um, uh, Florian Flade a while back, he mentioned something about, um, there's this idea that there might be an open conflict with Russia in 2027 in Europe. Um, I have no idea exactly the basis of all that sort of stuff, but certain European, um, members of, uh, NATO, et cetera, seem to be, have had discussions about this.

[01:00:24] So I don't know where that's going. Um, and you know, obviously if, if Russia managed to get a really good deal with regards to Ukraine and feel a sense of vindication, In what they've done. Um, and then they get to rebuild their forces. Does that mean they're going to attempt to go for other former sort of Soviet occupied states and, um, you know, continue on with their campaign?

[01:00:49] I don't know.

[01:00:49] Matt Fulton: If you just take the Trump of it all out of the equation here, right? And look at what the contours of World War III, if it happens, would probably look like, which is China and Russia against the West, right? We can't, we, the United States can't do that on our own. Y'all got to be ready and Russia's a lot closer to you than it is to us.

[01:01:18] China's probably going to be mostly our problem. You're going to have to handle the Russians and you've got to get ready for that.

[01:01:24] Chris Carr: Yeah, and who knows it could happen. I hope it doesn't happen. Um, but there's certainly with what's happened in Ukraine, et cetera. And if, if Russia feel vindicated by that, and if also because, um, Trump has invited Putin to visit America and vice versa.

[01:01:42] Trump has been invited to Moscow.

[01:01:43] Matt Fulton: Yeah, that's gonna be an all around disgraceful show.

[01:01:46] Chris Carr: Yeah, and does that mean now the sanctions are going to go away that Russia's now going to come back into the international community of open arms again and all that's been done will be just forgotten. Um, is that where we're going?

[01:02:00] Matt Fulton: I would think a, uh, loosening of sanctions would be tied to a settlement to the Ukraine War, right? I think that would just be, and that's one of the, again, I think if Kamala Harris had won and her administration was running these negotiations, you know, uh, Secretary of State Bill Burns, let's say, you know, was, was running this.

[01:02:21] Realistically, I think, um, NATO membership probably wouldn't happen at least not right away for a while. Right. Um,

[01:02:31] Chris Carr: Things cool down a bit. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:02:33] Matt Fulton: You're not going to get Crimea. It's just not going to happen. Whether they just, I think the Ukrainians deserve to get Crimea. You know, they're nowhere near able to do that.

[01:02:42] It's not going to happen. Um, there would also probably be some relaxing of sanctions. I would hope that it would be, and this is true even with the Trump administration doing these negotiations, I would hope it would be a phased relaxing of sanctions in response to verifiable, like the Russians honoring their terms of the agreement, you know, we don't just snap them all away like that and just, you know, let's just open up their economy again to the West. Like they gotta, they gotta prove. They have to prove this.

[01:03:13] Chris Carr: Yeah, you don't want a situation where, I think we've said this before, where Russia turns into, you know, um, post-World War I Germany, um, which then lets it fester and it gets worse, and

[01:03:23] Matt Fulton: It's kind of what they are right now.

[01:03:26] Chris Carr: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's gotta be carefully managed, yeah.

[01:03:29] Matt Fulton: Yeah, they're, they're post-World War I Germany in the 30s, you know, where their entire economy is sort of being shifted to a war footing. And that's something where I come back to what World War III, realistically, is probably going to look like.

[01:03:44] It's going to be Russia and China versus the West, and that's, we're going to be dealing with China in the Pacific. We can't do Europe for you. We can't protect Europe for you. Europeans have to do it themselves.

[01:03:55] Chris Carr: Well, yeah, yeah. And I think, I think the majority of European leaders who are sensible have realized that we're no longer in the 1990s and a lot of that mindset is disappearing.

[01:04:04] Um, but then the other problem now Europe faces is the rise of the far-right who are sympathetic with Russia.

[01:04:10] Matt Fulton: Exactly.

[01:04:11] Chris Carr: Um, and obviously if Germany are, to elect the AfD, what does that mean for German security and then the larger NATO, EU security, because Germany's a big player in all of that.

[01:04:23] Matt Fulton: It's also where it torques me that the sort of conversation in Europe that the far-right and this kind of insanity is uniquely an American problem.

[01:04:33] No, it's not. No, it's not. Stop it. It's not.

[01:04:36] Chris Carr: No, no.

[01:04:36] Matt Fulton: It's a problem for the entire Western world.

[01:04:39] Chris Carr: Yeah, it is a big problem in Europe at the moment. The far-right are doing very well. Um, and have probably been doing better than they have in America for some time. Um, you know, Italy's got a far-right government at the moment.

[01:04:51] And then if Germany let the AfD, you know, who knows what happens with their, um,

[01:04:57] Matt Fulton: You got issues with Farage and Reform and their popularity and everything and how that will work as far as the Tories and the next general election and all that. But y'all aren't out of the woods either.

[01:05:06] Chris Carr: Oh no, no. And, and yeah, the way the things are going at the moment, I, I, my prediction for the next election in the UK is a hung parliament.

[01:05:15] Um, because I, I suspect my, my prediction is, you know, but we'll come revisit this in a few years, but I suspect that Labour voters are going to be annoyed with Labour because Labour are going to play politics with Trump. Um, and, and, you know, appease Trump in many ways that will upset, yeah. the hardcore labor left and sort of centrist.

[01:05:35] Um, I think the next local elections, the Conservatives won't do as well as they should have. And so that will probably lead them to reconsider their views with regards to, um, Nigel Farage and whether or not they should team up. Um, whether or not there should be some sort of influence or whether it might swing them more into um, talking points that are kind of more akin to Reform.

[01:06:02] I think Reform itself, um, I'm still not convinced that Reform will be a proper challenge to the two established parties, but they will of the next sort of local election will definitely have an effect on both parties, um, and I don't think, and I think Labour will get a bit of a kicking as well because at the moment there's a very, um, anti, you know, sort of, uh, Labour sentiment again, you know, it's always with the press anyway, but there's already a feeling of everybody's pissed off at the government, they've barely been in power a year.

[01:06:35] So, um, I, I think that Labour should not rest on their laurels at the moment, um, in any way, shape or form. I think they're going to have to fight hard for the next election.

[01:06:44] Matt Fulton: Labor's had a rough go of it, uh, since, since, since July. Um, you know, there are various reasons for that. I'm not going to, yeah.

[01:06:51] Chris Carr: No, well, I think, I just think they're very poor communicators.

[01:06:54] That's my observation.

[01:06:55] Matt Fulton: It's true of the Democrats as well. Interesting tangent that we got on about domestic European politics, but I mean, these are the kind of issues that would lead to a government taking power, such as what happened here in the US, that would lead to a government taking power that is sympathetic to Russian interests.

[01:07:12] Chris Carr: Well, yeah, the price of eggs, wasn't it?

[01:07:13] Matt Fulton: Exactly.

[01:07:14] Chris Carr: Yeah, yeah, indeed, indeed. And so, yeah, um, you know, interesting times ahead and nobody should fool themselves thinking that it's just, um, an America, you know, America's the one suffering from a right-wing government at the moment. So, yeah. Is there anything else you want to add to all of this?

[01:07:32] Matt Fulton: No, I definitely want to pay more attention to it. And, uh, I mean, yeah, as these, um, it seems like in the last couple of days, this issue really kind of got to a. Rolling boil and I'm, I'm curious to see how it goes going further, but yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll definitely talk about it.

[01:07:46] Chris Carr: It's one other parting thought I have on all of this.

[01:07:49] I just, it's a bit like we were saying earlier about why, why, um, Trump's tactics are different with Russia than they are of other people. And I'm just sort of finding it's interesting looking at what's going on at the moment. The Trump administration seems to be going out of its way to disrupt relations with America's established allies such as Canada, Europe, and certain allies in the Middle East like Jordan, you know.

[01:08:10] And obviously it's with its undefined Gaza plan really. causing a issue in the Middle East right now. Um, so a lot of American allies are already out of joint about that, quite understandably. Um, and then obviously got, um, USAID's work's been halted, which is a lot of American soft power, um, is suddenly, um, under scrutiny, um, and a lot of people suddenly are without things that they had support for before.

[01:08:35] And now it looks like the Trump administration is going to give Ukraine a bad deal and Russia a great one. Um, and you know, give Russia the opportunity to come back to the international stage with very little repercussions for his invasion of Ukraine. Um, so yeah, what is all that about? I just, this is, I feel like at the moment Trump is just going out his way to piss off America's allies.

[01:08:58] Matt Fulton: Great question. Um,

[01:09:00] Chris Carr: I wish I knew the answer.

[01:09:02] Matt Fulton: Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's an interesting, um, Uh, disconnect that I find with the entire, with that sort of entire movement that clearly kind of glorifies and weaponizes the nostalgia about the United States being an unchallenged, um, unchecked, uh, global superpower.

[01:09:25] Right? Such as the nineties, early two thousands and stuff, right? Uses that as like, you know, this is what we're going to get back to, you know, we're going to be great again and no one's going to say anything to us and we're going to be respected and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

[01:09:39] But their actions seem tailor made to destroy all the things that create that status. That ensure that status, right? I don't have an answer to that as to why. I don't know if, if it's intentional, if, if they're just understanding of what sort of created Pax Americana is just very different than mine. Um, I don't, I don't know, but yes, I, I have that question as well.

[01:10:11] Chris Carr: Yeah. And I'm sure many listeners out there have that question too, but we were seeking the answer to that question, but we don't know it at this time.

[01:10:19] Matt Fulton: Indeed.

[01:10:21] Chris Carr: So our next story is about Iran's new aircraft carrier, um, which actually, you know, looking at it is a pretty interesting bit of kit, but Matt, you picked this out.

[01:10:31] So I'll let you talk to us a bit about it.

[01:10:33] Matt Fulton: Sure. Yeah. So it's a great article breaking this down in the, um, in The War Zone. So, uh, Iran has officially commissioned its unconventional new drone carrier, the Shahid Bagheri, a repurposed commercial container ship now serving the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps Navy.

[01:10:49] The vessel, which features a 590-foot flight deck with a ski jump has been seen launching and recovering drones, including a modified Ababil three with an arresting hook. It also carries a mix of larger drones, helicopters, and small missile boats, demonstrating Iran's continued push toward asymmetric naval warfare.

[01:11:08] One of the more bizarre aspects of Shahid Bagheri's air wing is the apparent revival of the Qahar 313, Iran's infamous and widely ridiculed stealth fighter concept. New drone variants modeled after the Qahar 313 have appeared on the carrier's deck, though their actual capabilities remain unknown.

[01:11:26] The ship is also armed with anti-ship cruise missiles, defensive weaponry, and reportedly features electronic warfare and intelligence gathering systems.

[01:11:34] Chris Carr: Hmm.

[01:11:34] Matt Fulton: Strategically, the Shahid Bagheri represents an attempt by Iran to extend its naval reach beyond regional waters. While its operational effectiveness is uncertain, it could be used for launching drone and missile attacks against commercial and military targets in the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea, or even further afield. Some analysts suggest it fits into Iran's broader strategy of conducting gray zone operations, using plausible deniability and asymmetric tactics to challenge US and allied forces. However, its survivability in an actual conflict remains highly questionable. The commissioning of Shahid Bagheri underscores Iran's growing focus on drone warfare and its ambitions to project power at sea, even if its new carrier is more a statement of intent than a genuine threat to conventional naval forces.

[01:12:21] Chris, what'd you think?

[01:12:22] Chris Carr: Yeah. Very, very interesting piece. So you mentioned just moments ago about small missile boats. So one of Iran's greatest naval strengths at the moment is its ability to deploy a vast number of small missile boats and swarm an enemy. So entering the aircraft carrier club is symbolically quite something for Iran, and no doubt it will pose a threat in the region with their ability to launch drones and missile boats at a greater distance.

[01:12:46] And as you just mentioned, obviously carriers are vulnerable and they require a number of ships to support and protect them. And It's unclear at this time whether Iran really has that capability. So if this carrier faces a more advanced navy, it probably wouldn't last very long. Drone carriers are probably the future of aircraft carriers.

[01:13:06] So Iran is ahead of the curve with this one. Um, And I'm also really interested about how they've managed to create this thing out of a converted cargo ship with the, basically with a flying deck added to the top and a few adjustments.

[01:13:20] Matt Fulton: That's how the first aircraft carriers were made.

[01:13:22] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah. And, and so, you know, this approach could lead to Iran making more of these.

[01:13:27] Um, and then you might get other countries looking at this and thinking maybe we should do this too. Um, now you compare what Iran have just done to the cost of a US carrier. A US carrier costs about 13 billion and the UK's new carriers are 6 billion a pop. So I'm just hoping DOGE don't see this and think, oh, the Iranians are onto something we should probably follow.

[01:13:52] Matt Fulton: You also got to consider the cost of operating a carrier.

[01:13:54] Chris Carr: Well, yes, very true.

[01:13:55] Matt Fulton: Enormous.

[01:13:56] Chris Carr: Very true. You know, I looked, you know, I looked at the photos. It is a very, um, what's the word I want now is a very hodgepodge affair. You know, the medical bay, I would not want to have a, an open wound in that medical bay.

[01:14:11] It looked pretty dirty from the photos I saw. Yeah. But I think it is a pretty, um, I don't want to dismiss what they've just done because I think actually, you know, in many respects, if one's desperate, you could. Put those together fairly quickly and it should, you know, this World War III scenario happened and we suddenly need to get a lot more drones out there.

[01:14:33] You know, you it's worth considering. This is a worst case scenario. This kind of way of building an aircraft carrier. But, but it's, um, yeah, I think the Iranians have does like very interesting. So it's easy to dismiss it. I don't think it poses a huge threat at this time, but if they start to build a lot more of them, then maybe, um, but my more worry is, will other people in, um, you know, other countries start thinking we need to do this too.

[01:14:56] Matt Fulton: Yeah. It's an interesting design.

[01:14:59] Chris Carr: It's kind of like the 3D-printed version. So 3D-printed guns, they're not brilliant, but they kind of work. And this is sort of the equivalent of that, really.

[01:15:08] Matt Fulton: It's an interesting design, perhaps a poor man's aircraft carrier for sure. As I said, like the very first carriers produced by the US Navy and the Japanese, you know, the Imperial Japanese Navy. Um, those were the first ones. I don't think the Royal Navy did this as well to an extent. I would have to go back and look at some of those books over my shoulder. But yeah, they were other just sort of conventional warships that, uh, they slapped a, flight deck on top of, you know, so this is very much

[01:15:37] Chris Carr: We did during the Falklands for Harriers as well, right?

[01:15:40] Matt Fulton: It's an interesting approach. It it certainly I think capitalizes on a lot of the Iranian's kind of developing or emerging weapon systems that they believe work or kind of give them more of a bang for their buck whether that's you know the small swarming missile boats, these various kind of drone platforms that they developed that are kind of Interesting.

[01:16:03] I mean, they've seen a lot of, um, success, I guess you could say in Ukraine for sure. Um, that said this ship is kind of a floating coffin for the entire crew. Um, it would be a burning patch of oil and debris on the top of the Persian Gulf in the opening hours of any conflict. Like, one sortie from a B-2 could sink this thing.

[01:16:28] Um, so it's, it's, you know, in a way it's sort of putting lipstick on a pig. Uh, but it's, uh, it's still a pig. Yeah. Um, it's interesting though. It's interesting. Definitely curious to see if they invest more in, in such designs as, as, as these. Um, I don't. Just the survivability. I don't know if it's the best use of their, I guess the best use of their resources, but we'll see.

[01:16:55] Chris Carr: No, I think, I think it has more symbolic value, maybe even just for the government to look, Hey, look, we've got this big aircraft carrier. Look at us. We're really cool and powerful. And we can, you know, stick it to the Americans, which, you know, obviously.

[01:17:07] Matt Fulton: But if you, if you look at the tactics of like a swarming attack, whether that's from small missile boats, manned or unmanned or drones and stuff, right?

[01:17:17] Those tactics are successful because you launched those missile boats or the drones from sort of dispersed hidden locations on the ground, right? Along the shoreline. If you're launching it from one sort of central hub, like a mothership or something, they're not as useful because you just blow up the mothership. Like, we've all seen Independence Day.

[01:17:40] Chris Carr: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. We were saying earlier, you know, the, the aircraft carriers need a protection force and without it, they're useless. And that's pretty much the issue, I think. So, yeah, but no, well, thank you for bringing that up because that was a really interesting article. And it's, um, and there's links within that article to earlier ones.

[01:17:59] We actually see the ship that it was, um, made from as well. So it's a very interesting kind of concept. So, uh, definitely not one to be dismissed. Do you had one extra thing as well?

[01:18:11] Matt Fulton: Just want to, uh, update, um, listeners on one of the stories we talked about last week, as far as the, uh, Potomac, uh, air collision, um, between the, uh, Army Black Hawk and an American Airlines, um, regional jet.

[01:18:25] So one of the questions we asked, and this, this article came out, and I think just as we were sort of going to air, um, but this, this news came out, you know, just as we were going to air. But, um, one of the questions we asked. Uh, and you know, my, my cousin, who's a commercial airline pilot, this was a big thing for him as well.

[01:18:43] So why wasn't the TCAS system or the, um, traffic and collision avoidance system? Why wasn't that? It's an automated system, um, that should have been going off in the cockpit of the CRJ. Um, Just before the crash, you know, like squawking, like climb, climb, climb, climb, climb, telling the crew to pull up out of the Black Hawk's path.

[01:19:02] Chris Carr: Yeah.

[01:19:03] Matt Fulton: So there was an open question there as to why that TCAS system wasn't going off. We know now why. Um, the FAA, uh, said in a briefing to senators, uh, that the ADSB system inside the Black Hawk, um, was, was not on. It was not squawking. And that beacon is what would have been picked up by the TCAS system in the regional jet.

[01:19:27] So that's why the TCAS system wasn't going off.

[01:19:30] Chris Carr: That makes sense, yeah.

[01:19:31] Matt Fulton: There's no, apparently there's no real national security reason as to why that ADSB system in the Black Hawk, uh, wasn't on. I mean, you can go on Flightradar or ADSB Exchange and see, um, Black Hawks and other helicopters, you know, flying around this area all the time, right?

[01:19:50] So, yeah, in a combat setting. Um, yeah, you, you would have that off, but as far as just a routine training exercise over DC in this crowded airspace, there's no real reason why that ADSB should have been switched off. So it could have been, it could have been done accidentally. It could have malfunctioned and the crew wasn't aware of it.

[01:20:09] You know, why? That question as to why we still don't know, but the reason the TCAS system did not go off in the regional jet is because the ADSB system was off in the Black Hawk.

[01:20:20] Chris Carr: I could, for the training thing, because it was the doomsday flight, I could understand a scenario where part of the training might be, can you fly through controlled airspace and not have an accident without, with this switched off?

[01:20:33] I could kind of see a justification for that, but obviously you're saying that's not the case.

[01:20:38] Matt Fulton: Yeah. I mean, there's, Also, you would just run into, you know, safety issues as we saw, you know, okay. You want to test that kind of an exercise? You know, can you fly through, uh, congested air traffic with this thing off. Go to the desert, you know, find a way to, to, you know, simulate it without actually doing it under the flight path, under the approach path for a major international airport.

[01:21:07] Well, yeah. With real civilians in the, in the crossfire. Yeah.

[01:21:12] Chris Carr: Yeah. I mean, this was the fatal flaw of this whole thing was having a, uh, some sort of helicopter flight path that passed the runway, an active runway. I just, yeah, I still can't get my head around that, but that's, uh, yeah. Again,

[01:21:23] Matt Fulton: I mean, we'll find out, we'll get, we'll get answers to it.

[01:21:26] And I'm sure, uh, you know, the way these exercises are done will change. Um, I mean, there will be, there'll be a lot of changes as to, you know, how, how air traffic is, is routed in through the middle of DC around the Potomac and everything, all that'll change. But yeah, as far as the open question as to why the TCAS system wasn't going off, we have an answer to that.

[01:21:45] Chris Carr: Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you very much for that update. And, um, was there anything else you want to add? Or are you, you happy there?

[01:21:53] Matt Fulton: No, um, I'm good. That kind of, I think covers us for today.

[01:21:55] Chris Carr: Cool. Well, yeah. Thank you everybody for listening. So just a quick reminder, uh, please email your questions, comments, or topic suggestions in by next Wednesday, because our next episode is out on the, um, 22nd of February.

[01:22:09] Uh, we're planning to, you know, just bring up listener questions, topics, um, you know, uh, uh, statements, uh, we're going to read through those things.

[01:22:18] Matt Fulton: We've got some good ones so far. I'm excited to, I'm excited to talk about it.

[01:22:21] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yes. We've got some good things there. So next week's episode will probably be mainly focused on that.

[01:22:26] Um, and, uh, so yeah, one other thing as well. So one of our listeners has suggested that we set up an Apple subscription, um, which would be similar to what we do on Patreon. So we're looking into that at this time. Um, and I think we will probably go ahead and, uh, do that. Um, I just need to figure out how we price it so it's fair what people pay on Patreon, because I'm not quite sure how that works. So we need to sit down, Matt and I figure that out. Um, just so we don't upset people. Cause I don't want people to feel like they're being cheated of something. Um, but the plan would be just, um, with it is you'd be able to get at, uh, the ad-free episodes through Apple.

[01:23:06] Uh, but. At the moment you can get ad-free episodes through Patreon. You just go to patreon-dot-com-forward-slash-secrets-and-spies. And you know, we're going to continue on creating ad-free episodes for you. Um, also if if you uh, like this show, um, you can get merchandise for it in our Redbubble store. Um, it's just if you go into the the links in the show notes, there's a link to our Redbubble Um, I can read out the URL if you really want me to, but it's just redbubble dot com forward slash shop forward slash AP forward slash six zero nine three four nine nine six. Click on the link. It's just easier.

[01:23:45] Matt Fulton: Yeah. It's in the show notes.

[01:23:47] Chris Carr: Um, and don't forget, we have a YouTube page so you can now watch us talking to each other. Um, and that's just. You know, just type in Secrets and Spies Podcast to the YouTube page and you'll find us and, um, we're playing around with YouTube at the moment and just understanding because it's a totally different, um, space for us.

[01:24:05] Um, and we're still sort of navigating that, but, uh, we're, you know, we're picking up a nice little following on YouTube now and for our YouTube. Followers and listeners, thank you very much for your support. You know, we really enjoy interacting with you. We've had some, you know, comments come through there.

[01:24:22] So, you know, uh, thank you again for, for watching us. And my big thing, my big request for everybody, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it. Please share away because, um, it helps us then, you know, connect with a wider audience. That's really helpful. Um, don't forget to connect with us on Bluesky, Instagram, Facebook, and Spoutable.

[01:24:41] All of those are just Secrets and Spies with Bluesky. It's a bit more complicated cause you're going to add dot BS, BS, KY dot social. Um, but it's all again in the show notes there and Matt and I are both on Bluesky. I'm pretty active on the Bluesky page. Uh, so yeah, and we had pretty good interaction with a post I put up just yesterday, um, in regards to, uh, Tulsi Gabbard's, um, announcement is, uh, yeah.

[01:25:06] New DNI. Yes. Certainly, uh, that, that, uh, Bluesky poster with Stewie has been quite popular. So there we go. So, uh, Matt, thank you very much for your time today. You up to anything interesting this weekend, anything exciting?

[01:25:20] Matt Fulton: Uh, hanging out with my cat. I think, you know, what else, what else is there to do?

[01:25:26] Chris Carr: Sounds good.

[01:25:26] Matt Fulton: What about you?

[01:25:26] Chris Carr: Sounds good. Um, I think I'm on the hunt for meatballs at Ikea this weekend. So, uh, I do like a Swedish meatball. So, uh, yeah, and the Ikea ones are particularly tasty. Um, so yeah, I'll probably be making some sort of meatball dish of some description. Um, yeah. So I know after a nice, um, well, by the time is there's sort of been, but there's a really cool film industry event happening tomorrow at Battersea, uh, for the British Society of Cinematographers.

[01:25:52] So, um, I'm going to go to that on Friday and meet up some friends and see some cool camera gear and, um, uh, and meet some interesting companies and, you know, and figure out what equipment I might be able to use in my next film or not. But so we'll see how that goes. But yeah. So, um, thank you everybody for listening.

[01:26:12] I hope you all have a wonderful weekend and we will catch you next week. And don't forget to send in your emails and, uh, we look forward to reading out your comments or topic suggestions. Take care.