[00:00:30] Chris Carr: On today's podcast, I'm joined by David Neiwert. David is an investigative journalist and author who focuses on the far right. On this episode, we talk about what authoritarianism is, we look at the implications of the Jan 6th pardons, we look at the potential for more political violence, and David shares his own experiences about reporting on the far right.

So it's a packed episode and I hope you find it informative. Thank you for listening. Take care.

David, welcome back to the podcast. Um, I was trying to remember exactly when it was you were last on and I think it may have been, uh, 2021. It's been a while.

[00:01:02] David Neiwert: Yeah, yeah, it was, I think it was after January 6th. But, uh.

[00:01:08] Chris Carr: Which is, yeah, slightly, slightly ironic, but yeah.

[00:01:12] David Neiwert: Yeah, it seems like, uh, it seems like, uh, forever ago, but, uh, yeah.

A lot of things change in a lot of hurry these days.

[00:01:23] Chris Carr: So true, so true. Well, um, David, for the benefit of listeners who may not have heard our previous interviews, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your sort of expertise on the far right?

[00:01:34] David Neiwert: Sure. Um, well, I'm a, I'm a fourth-generation Idahoan and, and grew up, you know, grew up there and, uh, my, had my early experience in the 70s and 80s, uh, dealing with neo Nazis in the Idaho panhandle.

And, um, and I started reporting on, um, right-wing extremists as a, as a dedicated beat in the 90s, uh, when I started writing about militia groups. And, um, and so I've kind of stayed on that subject, uh, uh, pretty steadily since the 90s and, uh, uh, it's, uh, you know, at the time I started doing it, it was because I thought, well, this is a beat that will provide me with a pretty steady diet of stories that, uh, because my experience with framing extremists is that they, uh, you know, they always create, they create dysfunction. They create, uh, they create, uh, crime. They create, uh, all kinds of, you know, they destroy families, they destroy communities and, and that sort of thing. And, and, you know, it's the kind of thing that causes creates new stories, you know? And, um, uh, so I, you know, I did it more or less from a, uh journalistic self interest thing.

But over, over time, of course, I also realized that, you know, standing up to and dealing with right-wing extremists is really important for us as a society because, um, the, these people create a lot of harm and, um, you know, I've especially developed a lot of compassion for the people who are their victims.

And ultimately I even developed some compassion for some of the extremists themselves, mainly because, uh, so many of them become victims of this ideology themselves, it ruins their lives, it ruins, you know, it destroys their families and their communities too. And. That's because, you know, they're, they're gullible enough to fall down the, the, the, the hole, uh, fall down these rabbit holes.

[00:03:46] Chris Carr: Yeah, indeed. Well, today, um, we're going to be talking about, um, well, obviously the far right. Um, but I wanted to sort of start a little bit from the kind of beginning and talk about authoritarianism. And, uh, I just want, I wanted to ask you a very big question. What is authoritarianism and why do you think, well, what do you think draws people to it?

[00:04:07] David Neiwert: Well, you know, we think of authoritarianism in terms of the systems that it creates, uh, and typically we put it in, uh, you know, cast it as a function of, uh, the, the leaders, the authoritarian leaders, the Mussolinis and, uh, Hitlers, you know, and, uh, as well as in our modern times, uh, the, the Putins and, uh, people like that, um, and, uh, but, uh, really authoritarianism is a phenomenon that involves, you know, the public, because, um, it's actually, it, it has, it has personality type. There's a personality trait. Uh, the people, authoritarian personalities are, um, you know, people who are drawn to this sort of dictatorial style of government because they believe that, uh, it, uh, solves issues and, you know, the people who prefer authoritarian governments are people who want, you know, their Alexanders to cut the Gordian knot in a single blow.

You know, uh, they, they get, uh, they get annoyed with and, and actually, uh, uh, disenchanted with, uh, democracy because it, uh, uh, wrings its hands too much and, and there's too much process and it's too slow. And, um, so, uh, they're always, uh, there's always a certain amount of authoritarian personalities in every population, typically about 20 percent of, uh, of every population has authoritarian personalities, but you can actually increase authoritarian response in the population and, and encourage people to, to become more authoritarian in their, uh, personalities by, uh, constant fear mongering, when you create an atmosphere rich with fear, people get into what I call an authoritarian crouch where they just, you know, want, they want the government to keep them safe and they don't care how they do it. And, um, so, uh, you know, it's, it's, uh, authoritarian personality types have three basic, uh, what we call, uh, behavioral and attitudinal clusters.

The first one is, uh, uh, authoritarian submission, which is, you know, the submission to the rule of the, the, the glorious leader who, the, who, to whom they defer, you know, all thought and, and, and process all the other sort of governmental processes. Um, second is authoritarian aggression, which is aggression directed against anyone who fails to submit.

Um, and then finally there's, uh, conventionalism. The idea that they, that they, the authoritarians represent the true, uh, national personality that is in our case, uh, you know, the real Americans. And of course, in, in, in your case, the true Brits.

[00:07:25] Chris Carr: Yes. You hear these phrases a lot. Yeah.

[00:07:27] David Neiwert: Yeah. Well, we, we get them all the time too, you know, the real Americans.

And you know, it's, it's, uh, it's pretty, uh, so, you know, anyway, those, those three, In combination, those three behavioral traits, um, really combined to create a whole long list of things that are, um, dealing, you know, that have to do with how they, how they treat others. And, you know, they're, they're, uh, uh, they are highly paranoid.

They, uh, succumb readily to, uh, conspiracism, um, and they have all kinds of, um, you know, it's. All these things that we've kind of come seen from roaring out since 2016, uh, in, in American politics and, um, and yeah, there's definitely a violent undercurrent to it and that really, that violence really manifested itself on January 6th, 2021.

[00:08:32] Chris Carr: Yeah. Some people view Donald Trump and the MAGA movement as simply just another expression of partisan politics and they often dismiss concerns about authoritarianism or white supremacy and kind of say that those concerns are overblown. However, many argue that the MAGA movement represents something beyond traditional political divisions.

Can you explain kind of what the MAGA movement is and sort of how it developed?

[00:08:56] David Neiwert: Well, you know, it's essentially, I mean, the MAGA movement I just think of as being the, the authoritarian followers who, um, make up the, uh, Donald Trump's, uh, following. But, um, you know, they're the people who make it work.

They're the people who put them in power and then, and then basically threaten the rest of us with violence. If we. If we dare to stand up to him and disagree, um, but yeah, it's the, I would say that there, um, you know, it, you know, obviously developed as a response to Donald Trump's presidency and his political style.

Um, and, but it's, you know, it, it is a movement that believes that it represents the real America, that, uh, you know, that they're, um, that they're going to, you know, uh, basically eliminate the people who, uh, are not, who are dragging the country down. And so, so it has this very powerful eliminationist component, um, where they want to either deport people altogether or they want to lock them up in prison or in the cases of, you know, a lot of these, I spent a lot of time in these guys' online spaces and they talk about killing people all the time. Um, it's, it's a pretty common theme for them to, to want to rub out their neighbors with the AR-15s that they sitting there stroking the triggers, you know? Um, so, um, and, you know, the whole, the compote, the idea of "make America great again" is, is actually classically fascist. Um, you know, one of my favorite scholars of fascism is a guy from Oxford Books, there in the UK, named Roger Griffin, and he wrote a book called, The Nature of Fascism. And, and the essential, I mean, he came, tried to come up with an essential definition of what fascism is. And he, you know, the, his answer was that it's, uh, what he called, uh, palindigenetic ultranationalism. And, uh, palingenesis is the idea of the phoenix like rebirth of the nation. And it's, uh, with, combined with this ultranationalist component, it's, I mean, that's, that's MAGA.

MAGA is, uh, very much, uh, palingenetic in nature, and, uh, it's, uh, definitely ultranationalist. So, and ultimately I would say that the product that we're seeing here and have been seeing on the streets in the United States for the last seven years or so is fundamentally proto fascist or neo fascist.

[00:11:55] Chris Carr: Yeah. So it is fair to say the MAGA movement is authoritarian in its nature?

[00:11:59] David Neiwert: Oh yeah. Yeah, very authoritarian. Yeah. Yeah. If you, if you disagree with them, they will, uh, they will cut you down.

[00:12:08] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah, indeed. So what role do you think sort of online commentators and influencers on YouTube and social media have played in moving the MAGA movement from the fringes to the mainstream? And how do they tend to frame things?

[00:12:24] David Neiwert: Well, it's the way they do it is of course, with this, uh, sort of, uh, this information environment that's riddled with disinformation and conspiracism, you know, really false stories. Uh, and they use the media, the media environment that they use is one that is wide open to, uh, all sorts of conspiracy theorists and people peddling smears and lies and being able to do so with impunity.

You know, the people are, and the people running the sort of MAGA media movement are, um, you know, guys like, uh, Tucker Carlson, who can sit there and spew all kinds of falsehoods, all kinds of crap on the air to millions of people. And not have to pay a single consequence for it. Although he did, uh, obviously get eventually fired from Fox News, uh, because he helped cost them several million dollars, uh, um, hundreds of millions of dollars, uh, over the, the, uh, uh, election results.

Uh, cause he, the Fox got sued by, um, you know, one of these, uh, one of the, uh, companies that made the election counting machines that, uh, uh, that Carlson had been sitting there slagging, uh, relentlessly, uh, after the election and claiming that the, the election results were false. And, um, you know, there's, fortunately, there are still some, uh, uh, there's the ability to stand up to these lies in the courts, but it takes a really long time. Um, and in the meantime, these guys, you know, what's the old saying? Uh, a lie will get halfway around the world before the truth even has a chance to get its pants on. So...

[00:14:23] Chris Carr: Yeah, yeah. I mean, definitely the, um, the shall we say the social media environment in the buildup to the election, um, was, you know, alt right, I feel is the mainstream of social media now.

Um, and, you know, there's a lot of people who are either overtly pro Trump and MAGA, or they tend to be kind of, um, somewhere sort of in the middle, but tend to, in the last moments, then go and endorse Donald Trump. Um, you know, somebody like Joe Rogan, for example. Um, and, and I find that what's interesting as well is that, um, the MAGA movement seems to really be attracting men, young men, uh, well, it seems to be men from their twenties to their mid forties, cause I know some people I'm, I'm in my forties.

Um, and I know a few people of my generation who have over the years, because they've tried to be entrepreneurs, et cetera, and followed all sorts of things on YouTube have slowly become much more, not overtly MAGA supporters, but they're very sympathetic to it and tend to think that Donald Trump's going to do a good job and that they're the people who tend to dismiss concerns or say that we're being reactionary.

Um, so I, I just find it really interesting that it seems to always appeal to mainly men. Um, I don't know if you have any sort of observations on that.

[00:15:44] David Neiwert: Well, for, for one thing, it's a profoundly misogynistic movement. Uh, it's not a surprise that that there are fewer women who are attracted to this, uh, sort of stuff because, uh, they're constantly putting women down.

I mean, really, uh, core of the appeal, you know, this whole attack on diversity, equity and inclusion is a classic example of this, uh, because of course, DEI, uh, the primary beneficiaries of DEI measures are women. You know, it's, it's, it opens up spaces for women to be able to be included. And, uh, so yeah, there's, there's really, um, a lot to it, you know, this, um, ultimately I would say, I mean, the most, the thing that I think turns most women off is this utter lack of empathy. It's utter lack of compassion for other people, because I think women tend to be more empathetic and more compassionate. And, um, and so, you know, when, when you have a movement that's, uh, very much in your face, it's not just non compassionate, but anti compassionate, uh, anti empathetic. Um, then I think a lot of people, you know, uh, and of course, empathetic men like myself kind of go, really, what are you doing here? You know, uh, but unfortunately, um, there's a lot of men who get raised nowadays to think that masculinity entails, uh, shedding your empathy, uh, shedding your ability to put yourself in other people's shoes. Uh, that, uh, being masculine is all about, uh, just, uh, being a spoiled brat.

You know, I, I, I'm going to do what I want type stuff.

[00:17:42] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:44] David Neiwert: You know, it's really toxic.

[00:17:46] Chris Carr: Indeed. Indeed. And, and what's interesting as well, a lot of these alt right commentators talk about there's a crisis in masculinity. Right. Um, and I, and I agree with them. I think there is a crisis in masculinity, but I don't think it's the same crisis they're talking about.

[00:17:59] David Neiwert: Well, yeah, yeah. There is a crisis because there's so many men who are getting taught that, um, to, to, to be a man, you have to shed all this stuff. You know, I got raised with a very different model of masculinity. Um, I don't know about you, but you know, my, uh, my granddad was probably my, uh, my model of masculinity. And he was, um, you know, he didn't have any more than a sixth grade education, but he led this, uh, construction road construction company in Southern Idaho that built most of the roads in, in Idaho and, um, was, uh, you know, a beloved man when he passed away and he took care of people and I looked after people and, and, uh, he, he was careful, you know, he was really, uh, cautious how he judged people, uh, he tried to, uh, deal with people in an even handed way and in a way that, uh, was, was not harsh.

And, um, you know, it was, it was just a, I mean, that was how I always was raised to, to be a man that basically, uh, a man, the way I was raised is, is a man who's big, a person who's big inside. And he's so big enough that he's not threatened by having to, uh, show weakness or show compassion or show, uh, caring, those things don't make yoUSmaller, they make you bigger, but, uh, little men, little mean men, uh, who have no compassion will teach you that, oh no, those things make you less masculine. You know, that's the old John Wayne stuff. And, you know, my granddad thought John Wayne was a small man, so, uh, because he was mean spirited. And, um, and I tend to, and I was raised the same way. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I think that, that there's a lot of, there are a lot, there is a, uh, a problem with masculinity now and that people are getting really a very perverse idea of, uh, what it means to be a man these days, and I don't think that women and feminism are responsible for that. I think men are.

[00:20:20] Chris Carr: Yeah, I agree with you. Talk about, um, where you were raised and stuff. I was just thinking about my childhood whilst you were talking about yours there. And, um, when I was a kid, sort of my heroes were people like, um, Captain James T. Kirk or Captain Picard of Star Trek. So I'm not quite sure what that effect that had on me.

[00:20:40] David Neiwert: Wise people. But, well, you appreciate wisdom. You're, you're able to slow down and stop and listen to other people. Um, uh, the model of masculinity that, that today's young men are getting is this, um, model that comes out of the wrestling world, you know?

[00:20:58] Chris Carr: Yeah, yeah.

[00:21:00] David Neiwert: You know, that's, that's, that's not, uh, and that's not real masculinity as far as I'm concerned, so.

[00:21:06] Chris Carr: No, no, I agree. Well, just before we move to a break, um, do you, my other question was, do you think then, I'm always fascinated by sort of Donald Trump. Do you think Donald Trump is an opportunist levering the MAGA movement for his own gain? Or do, do you think he genuinely believes in the ideology it represents? Because he's been a bit of a political flip flopper through his career.

[00:21:29] David Neiwert: Yeah, no, I think he's total opportunist. I don't think, I don't know how much he actually believes this stuff. Um, I think, I think what he is, is profoundly ignorant.

I mean, he's like a spoiled brat who, uh, who was raised, uh, as ah, incredibly spoiled as a child and never had to think anything through for himself and expects the whole world to come to him and has been that way all of his life. And, and so we, I mean, he's profoundly ignorant. I mean, the stuff that he says like about whales and, and, and windmills just makes me laugh, right? Because it's so deeply ignorant or his discussion of the, the California fires was so ignorant, it was, it was ludicrous. When he talks about immigration and he's, and he starts bringing up Hannibal Lecter. And the reason he does is because, um, he has confused asylum seekers, people who are coming, the people who have been creating the, crisis in American immigration the last, uh, four years or so are people, the people who are flooding to the borders and seeking asylum, right?

And so he, he assumes that those people are coming from insane asylums and he calls them Hannibal Lecters. This is why he brings up Hannibal Lecter in this, in the context of, of, you know, talking about immigration. And it has, uh, you know, people are really confused by this, but you got to understand he is so ignorant that he thinks that people seeking asylum are people who are coming from asylums, right?

It's, it's, I mean, it's, his levels of ignorance are just astonishing. And it's because he's never had to actually learn anything himself in his own life. He's always assumed that whatever he sort of, uh, got stuffed in his brain when he was five years old is all, is the truth that he still adheres to now.

And um, you know, he's, he's never, he doesn't read, he doesn't, uh, he doesn't learn anything new. He doesn't, uh, take any time to actually learn anything. He just, and you know, just feeds his ignorance. So yeah, I think he's a really deeply, profoundly ignorant man. And, uh, And on top of that, yeah, has, is, uh, he's a pathological liar and has zero empathy for other human beings. They don't get much worse than that, certainly in the political realm.

[00:24:18] Chris Carr: Well, this is it. One would hope a president or somebody becomes president would at least have a high degree of empathy because it's a role that's about governing people and the nation. Um, you know, it surely should be the big part of it, but yeah.

[00:24:32] David Neiwert: Yeah. And he's the opposite.

[00:24:33] Chris Carr: Yeah, indeed.

[00:24:35] David Neiwert: He has zero empathy.

[00:24:38] Chris Carr: Yeah, well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.

Welcome back, everybody. So David, can you talk to us about January the 6th? Because um, I feel that this is sort of gonna become a I think Trump would like it to be a bit like Tiananmen Square in a sense of that it just disappears, so I think for the record it would be good just to chat about what actually happens on January 6 from sort of your understanding and expertise.

[00:25:19] David Neiwert: Sure. Well, yeah, in fact as you, you let's see, I actually, uh, uh, did a whole book on January 6th, um, that, uh, I used to sit and I really looked into, I mean, what happened on January 6th was really a culmination of the previous four years and particularly the kind of straight politics that, uh, uh, Trump had engendered and in particular, you know, the rise of groups like the Proud Boys and, uh, Oath Keepers and, uh, these other white nationalists, as well as all the Christian nationalists who are out there marching in the streets, um, with Trump. And, um, they were, basically, you know, it's a fanatical following, fanatical MAGA following who truly believed that he had had, that the election was stolen from Trump and, um, they, you know, called them all to the Capitol. I believe Trump had been, knew that he had was building up this army of, of violent actors, uh, who were, would take violence to the street, had been doing it for some time.

Um, you know, when I remember, for instance, we had a, uh, one of the marchers in Portland, a guy named, uh, Aaron Danielson was, uh, out and, uh, marching with these, uh, these thugs and attacking people on the streets of Portland. And one of the people they were stalking, uh, turned the tables on him and he pulled a gun out and shot Danielson and killed him. And, uh, that anti fascist had, he went on the run for exactly two days. Uh, Trump basically sent out the US Marshals and he made it clear that they weren't to arrest him, they were just to, to summarily execute him. And they did, uh, they found him at a, you know, on a suburb of Olympia and, uh, and just gunned him down.

And, um, you know, and that was a real sign and that was in 2020, of course, that happened, so that was a real sign of where this thing was going to me was that, uh, his, his, uh, the Proud Boys were out there to enforce, you know, Trump's edicts and Trump's politics. And, uh, if anybody stood up to them and in particular, if they stood up to them with lethal force, uh, they would be gunned down.

They would be dealt with in the harshest measures possible. And that is very much, you know, what happened. And it, you know, uh, uh, about a month later, uh, Trump during his debate with Biden told the Proud Boys to stand by and, uh, be ready, basically. And that, that had a real ominous, uh, sound to me because, you know, I knew that if he lost the election, uh, he was going to be likely to try to get this mob out on the street to defend him in Washington.

And so, and we saw two sort of warm up gatherings in Washington after the election, one on November 14th and another one on December 12th, that, uh, that drew a large, uh, crowd of, of MAGA followers and particularly Proud Boys who, uh, attacked an African American church and burned their banners and, uh, you know, committed hate crimes.

And it was about a week after that, that Trump sent out a tweet telling everybody that they were going to be having a big "Stop the Steal" rally on January 6th. And for everybody to be there, will be wild. And this was the green light. And all these groups, all of these, uh, uh, fanatical MAGA followers, uh, started making plans to show up in Washington DC on the 6th and, uh, try to, try to prevent, uh, Trump from, uh, being forced out of office.

And that was really, that was part of his plan. Now, mind you, it was also clear what we also know from his machinations inside the White House and with members of Congress is that it was part of what we call an inside outside game. He was going to be pressuring Congress from inside, uh, by having members of the Republican Party stand up and do the tactics to try to delay the count and try to, you know, do all these things, to, to do it while he gathered the forces from the outside to prevent, to provide, um, you know, real pressure of, of real violence, uh, to pressure Congress from the outside. And, um, you know, fortunately Congress did not succumb to that game, but it was, uh, you know, we came very, very, very close to these, this mob succeeding.

Uh, they very nearly caught Mike Pence, they very nearly caught, um, several senators. They had very nearly caught, you know, this, you know, the scene where, uh, you know, the, the, the, the martyr, uh, uh, the woman who was shot actually, uh, that moment when she was shot, um, was right when it was, there were still people in on the floor of the House, trying to get out of the chambers and get to a safe place and the mob was sitting there on the other side of the glass and they could see the members of Congress trying to flee. And that, and they went crazy cause they wanted to, that mob wanted to get at those members of Congress. And they, that's when they started pounding on the glass and then broke it. And, uh, when I actually jumped up in the, into the window pane is when she was shot, um, but she was trying to lead the mob to go attack, uh, member fleeing members of Congress.

And if that had happened, you know, if there had been people caught by the mob and lynched, and, and they would have been lynched, um, or at least, you know, beaten to death, um, you know, whatever form of lynching you want to call it, um, they, it would have been, you know, I don't think that, that there would have been a vote that day or later that night as it happened.

Uh, so all of these things, you know, Mitt Romney almost got, he almost walked right into the arms of the mob, but fortunately was prevented from doing so by one of the security officers. Um, there were, we had so many close calls that day and, and we were just very fortunate that, uh, that people did the right thing and were able to get into safe space and prevent the mob from, uh, killing anyone or harming anyone, and then, uh, being able to finally throw him out and then hold the vote later that night. Uh, I think that was, that was really key, but if that hadn't happened, I think that there's a very good chance that, uh, Trump and his plan would have succeeded.

[00:33:10] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:11] David Neiwert: And, and yeah, it would have been a coup. I mean, it was obviously, he was attempting a coup then. And, uh, now, now he's, he's pulled it off. Uh, the 2024 means the coup has succeeded. Um, and he did it with an ostensibly legitimate election. I am not by any means persuaded that that election result was actually legitimate.

Um, I, especially considering the behavior we're watching now, uh, these, these are clearly men who has zero respect for democracy or its processes. Uh, I, if they had figured out a way to hack, uh, the electoral results, uh, I have zero doubt that they would have, and I think it's, there's, there are two, there are a lot of reasons to suspect that, that they may have actually, uh, gotten, uh, an illegitimate result and installed Trump in office as a result of it. But even without that, uh, you know, even if, even if he had actually legitimately won, uh, we still have a constitution and he's still breaking it every day that he's been in office.

[00:34:34] Chris Carr: Yeah.

[00:34:34] David Neiwert: He's still violating the constitution constantly. And, and, and we have no means of, we've had no means of holding them accountable yet. Uh, but I think that, uh, eventually there will be.

[00:34:46] Chris Carr: Yeah. I hope so. Yeah. I'm just, I'm just shocked that, um. He was allowed to get away with his sort of actions, um, uh, on January the 6th. And, and I, and I don't know, I'm still trying to get my head around why a, it took so long, um, to bring him to account and then how anybody allowed it to all sort of fall apart the way it did. And now he's back in power. I just don't quite understand how that was even possible, but that's maybe for a legal podcast.

[00:35:18] David Neiwert: Well, I think you said that the Republican Party became an authoritarian party. And it's filled with, uh, authoritarian personalities, people who, uh, back Trump, uh, to the hilt, no matter what.

And, and, and even if there are people who, um, wanted to, maybe Republicans who maybe had doubts about it and wanted to stand up to it, uh, they had, all the spines got gave a jellyfish and were easily pushed around and easily cowed. You know, I think Mitch McConnell, uh, the day after January 6th wanted to put Donald Trump in prison, uh, and definitely would have been, um, I think he would have been good with an impeachment, but in the week after January 6th, uh, Trump was able to rustle up all the authoritarian threats that he could because he made it clear that he was going to destroy the Republican Party and take, take the Republican Party down with him if they didn't back him to the hilt, uh, he was going to go start a, a new party called the Patriot Party. Uh, which would have definitely destroyed the Republican Party if he had done so. And so that was, that was the threat he held over all these, uh, these mainstream Republicans and they, they selfishly decided to, uh, give in to that blackmail.

[00:36:43] Chris Carr: Yeah. So, um, let's talk a bit about the pardons because obviously now all the rioters are I believe have all been pardoned, um, and have been released from prison and any, and some who are in the sort of justice system awaiting trial, their cases have been canceled. Um, so can you talk to us about sort of why that's significant and important?

Because yeah, it's, it's truly shocking watching from afar.

[00:37:07] David Neiwert: Well, we've already seen several of these, uh, pardoned J6ers commit crimes as soon as they get out. Yeah. Um, and yeah, it's basically, you know, what, what we're dealing with now is that Trump is kind of has the ability to, he has these people who have already committed crimes on his behalf and they know, now know that they can commit crimes on his behalf and get pardoned, that there's no consequences for committing crimes on Donald Trump's behalf, other than, you know, well, they had to spend a couple of years in prison, but, but you know, they've all been pardoned and now they're national heroes.

According to Trump. Yeah. No, I think, uh, the public, especially the parts of the public that, uh, still believe in democratic processes might want to, uh, stand up to, uh, Trump and his rule. I think that, uh, they now, you know, face the actual threat of real violence from these actors who've been freed from prison.

Uh, uh, there are a number of them who have been very clear that they would like to get retribution for what happened to them. I would say, you know, that there's a lot of concern among a lot of us who, uh, oppose Trump and, and deal with this stuff that he has unleashed this army of criminal Brownshirts, uh, who will do anything for him and who knows what that'll mean, but, uh, you know, combined with the, what I, when I, spend time in their online spaces and see how much violent talk goes on, see how eager they are to start shooting their neighbors and shooting their fellow Americans and rounding them. And then rounding up, um, Latino people into concentration camps. Um, you know, I think that there is just an incredible potential for a lot of, uh, really horrific violence over the next four years, if not longer.

[00:39:20] Chris Carr: One, one big question I wanted to ask you is about what are your thoughts on Trump's attempt to gut the FBI and Justice Department of anyone who's been associated with the, um, January 6th Capitol attack? Because that's, that's been a really interesting sort of development that's come up.

[00:39:35] David Neiwert: Well, it's, it's, uh, obviously the same thing as his dismissal of the, uh, anybody in the FBI who was involved in investigating the Russiagate stuff, involved in investigating his ties to Russia. He did the same, he's dismissed those people, even before he dismissed people involved to January six investigations.

And it's the same sort of concept that, uh, he wants anybody within federal law enforcement who, uh, might be able to, uh, hold him accountable for committing these federal crimes to be gone. And he doesn't want anybody in federal law enforcement who might hold him accountable for future crimes. He wants it to be clear that, uh, he is going to rule with impunity, uh, and anyone within the FBI who doesn't agree, uh, who tries to hold him accountable for breaking the law, for violating the constitution, um, is going to face the same fate, so it has serves multiple purposes.

It, it, it gets rid of the elements that, uh, might threaten him, uh, with criminal, uh, prosecution and, but it also sends a really powerful message to anybody still there, uh, that, uh, your career is going to be over as soon as you, uh, try to take action against him.

[00:41:07] Chris Carr: Now there have been concerns about sort of far right infiltration of law enforcement, the military, and the intelligence services. Do you feel those concerns are sort of justified, and do you think that will now potentially get worse?

[00:41:21] David Neiwert: Yes, um, yeah, I've written quite a bit about, you know, far right infiltration, both of ranks of law enforcement and in the military. Um, it's been a problem since the 2000s. Uh, I mean, the, the FBI did an assessment back in 2006 that warned about, you know, letting a white supremacists, uh, infiltrate the ranks of the military. Um, because the, the military in particular, um, is one of these, is having military experience is a huge, uh, uh, bonus if you want to get recruited by, by, by right wing extremists, because they really look up to people with military experience for several reasons. One is that, you know, they're, they're, they're following rules and that sort of thing.

But also they, they have experience with weapons and materiel. It's what we call, um, uh, the Timothy McVeigh effect. You know, we, we always used to talk in the 90s before McVeigh came along and about how, well, we were pretty lucky because we would see various right wing extremists try acts of domestic terrorism and not succeed because they weren't terribly competent at it. And then McVeigh came along and here's the guy who actually was competent, had experience gained in the military and knew how to create a massive truck bomb. And you know, he killed 168 people.

[00:42:54] Chris Carr: Yeah.

[00:42:54] David Neiwert: Um, so the, uh, yeah, so, you know, this is always a concern going into the, into the 2000s that, that white supremacists and right wing extremists, um, would be recruiting people who would be capable of causing tremendous amounts of harm.

And, um, and so that, that was always the concern, uh, with the military. Um, and you know, we saw really a very high percentage of people who were arrested on January 6th or for their behavior of January 6th, who did have military background, uh, this was, it was one of the main, uh, threads that we saw connecting a lot of the people there. But then we also saw a lot of people in law enforcement and, you know, Oath Keepers in particular were an organization that specifically, uh, recruited people in law enforcement and military, and they went after, uh, a lot of, um, uh, cops, I met a lot of cops when I was out covering, um, these street events, these riots, I covered about 20 different Proud Boys events over the course of the five years I was out there. And, um, and the cops were always very sympathetic to the Proud Boys, always very sympathetic to the Oath Keepers. Um, and a lot of it is because they're, they themselves in some cases actually were members of the Oath Keepers. Um, And then finally, there's a third component that are the sheriffs, uh, county sheriffs. Uh, we have, we've had since the late 90s, we've had this, uh, these people, uh, organizing a movement, they call it the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association. And, uh, they went after, uh, specifically, uh, sheriffs to recruit them into this belief that, um, you know, the sheriff is the ultimate law of the land that he's able to, uh, over, overrule, uh, federal laws within his own county, and that, uh, that they are basically laws unto themselves. And it's, uh, CSPOA is the, uh, acronym, and they've been very, mostly they've been pretty successful in recruiting sheriffs in rural counties. And so we've got a lot of, uh, now we've got a lot of people who are mostly in rural counties who, uh, are these radical right wing extremists who are running law enforcement there.

And so, yeah, and those, those people are particularly concerned when it comes to, um, uh, uh, immigrants, uh, I think we're seeing them be very active on that front. So we have, we have multiple fronts, uh, in law enforcement and military where, uh, these guys are really a problem and, uh, will be a problem going forward.

[00:46:07] Chris Carr: Yeah, no, I bet. I bet. Yeah. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.

Now, because of these pardons, uh, do you think we're now going to see an uptick in political violence, especially towards sort of minority groups and those who do not subscribe to the MAGA ideology?

[00:46:42] David Neiwert: Yeah, I think that, um, there are a couple of components of American society that are going to be targeted by these guys.

And, uh, first on the list, obviously as immigrants, because they're very eager to start rounding people up and sending them off to the concentration camp that they're building at Guantanamo.

[00:47:03] Chris Carr: Hmm.

[00:47:04] David Neiwert: And, um, and yeah, they, they're, uh, that's, absolutely first on their list. And they're not, they're already not being terribly particular about whether they pick up citizens or whether they pick up, uh, people who, uh, are actually undocumented or here illegally.

Um, and that's been the case in the past when America's done these sort of mass deportation. So there was a mass deportation program done by Eisenhower back in the fifties, uh, called Operation Wetback, where they, uh, wound up swooping up, uh, close to a million people and deporting them. And, uh, there were, there are a number of civil rights violations that occurred during all of that, and in particular, they swept up a lot of Americans. And of course, I have a fair amount of experience also with the Japanese American internment that occurred during World War II. Um, where, um, you know, I, I wrote a book on that and, uh, uh, interviewed a lot of, uh, Japanese Americans who were in the internment camps. And one of the things that really was clear in all that was that, um, I mean, one of the reasons that Japanese American internment was a travesty was that, um, uh, 70,000 of the 120,000 people that they put into these concentration camps were citizens, were children. Mostly, uh, but some of them were teenagers and some of them were adults. Um, you know, and several other guys that, that I interviewed, uh, served in the 442nd, which was the unit, uh, most decorated unit in World War II. Uh, all Japanese Americans, uh, and they fought in Europe, uh, only, and they were, they were sent into a meat grinder situations because their lives were expendable. And, uh, so they wound up being the most decorated unit in the war. Um, but they were, um, and these guys were real American heroes. And I, uh, interviewed a few of them. Uh, they were all, you know, they were all adults at the time. The announcement, uh, you know, everybody was sent off to the internment camps and they were able to get out of the camps by joining the four, four, two, and, uh, going off and fighting in Europe.

And, um, you know, it, it, and it is, really underscores what our travesty, the whole thing was because these were, you know, really brave people who were willing to give their, lay their lives down for the country and for a country that was locking their parents up. Um, pretty remarkable really. And anyway, uh, and that's what, that's what we're doing again.

I mean, we're the, the reason that the, uh, you know, the Supreme Court at the time in 1943, uh, issued a ruling called the Korematsu in the Korematsu versus United States case. Um, uh, that basically upheld the internment and said it was legal. And that ruling is now considered one of the real black marks on the Supreme Court's history.

And, um, and yeah, we're about to reproduce it again, or, you know, Trump, Trump wants to eliminate birthright citizenship so that he can ship all these children back with their parents, even if they are citizens. He doesn't care if they're citizens. Um, he wants to, he wants the kids to go back with their parents too.

And, you know, a lot of cases, the parents are, you know, we're talking about the abuelita has been here for 30 years and running the taco shop on the corner, you know, I mean, these are people who are contributing to the country and, and do a great job. And, and the, the crime that they're supposed to be committing is actually a misdemeanor, um, and usually results in a fine if you're caught.

But now, now, now we have this idea that anyone who is here is undocumented, is a criminal. And you'll hear them talk about criminals all the time. And yet, um, they're actually not criminals. They're people who committed a misdemeanor penalty, a civil misdemeanor. And, um, yeah, it's, uh, you know, um, there's a lot of, there's a lot of misconceptions about immigration and the status of undocumented workers in the United States, um, and their supposed levels of criminality.

Uh, one of the things that's assumed is that if you're here undocumented, then you crossed the border illegally, right? But actually, uh, around 65 percent of our current undocumented immigrants who were, you know, number around 11 million, about 65 percent of them are actually visa overstays. People who came here legally, did the right thing, came through the right way, but then let their visas expire and just stayed after their visas expired, uh, which is, again, as I say, that's, that's not a criminal act, that's a, that's a civil misdemeanor.

Again, we're, you know, the hyperinflation of the kinds of criminality. And then finally, you know, they, uh, they do, uh, you know, uh, tie on to certain, uh, very tragic cases like the Laken Riley incident, uh, where an undocumented immigrant murdered a young woman, uh, a guy who, uh, probably shouldn't have been in the country in the first place. Um, and, uh, you know, and, and, you know, her family wanted pain for his presence by, uh, having, losing their daughter. Um, but, um, does the, the problem with all of that is that the actual levels of crime committed by undocumented immigrants is, is less than half of what a native born American commits.

[00:53:47] Chris Carr: Hmm.

[00:53:48] David Neiwert: It's a much lower, undocumented immigrants commit crimes at much, much lower rates than, than native born Americans do.

And it's, a lot of that has to do with the fact that. You know, most undocumented, it's like, you know, one of the things that they often get accused of is, is voting illegally. You know, that was one of the Trump liked to tell people that, that the reason he lost is that they had all these undocumented immigrants voting for him.

Undocumented immigrants don't vote because they don't want to. It would be one of the best ways to get caught, uh, of, for being, uh, for, uh, get crossways with the law. Most undocumented immigrants do not commit crimes because they don't want to have, get sent back to where they came from because the best way for that to happen is to get crossways with the law and have, you know, a law officer puts you in prison and then they find out your status and then they send you back, right? Generally speaking, the ethos in the undocumented community is very much, you know, don't commit any crimes and, uh, just keep your head down, do the work, uh, be a contributing member of the community, and that sort of thing. And that's generally what we see, and of course, there are exceptions, and some of them are indeed very tragic, but, to build a whole policy built around this real distortion of what's actually happening is, uh, is tragic.

[00:55:26] Chris Carr: Yeah, yeah. And do think there are now MAGA people who, um, believe that if they commit an act of violence against someone that they're going to get a presidential pardon because of what happened with the January 6th defendant?

[00:55:39] David Neiwert: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we'll see. I mean, it hasn't played out yet.

We've had a couple of them, um, get arrested already doing things that kind of seem to suggest that they see themselves as, uh, being able to act with impunity, being invulnerable to the law. Um, I know, you know, we haven't seen a lot of that yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if we do.

[00:56:07] Chris Carr: Hmm. Hmm. I don't. Indeed. Indeed. Well, um, I want to ask you another question as well about, um, obviously, there's some commentators on the right who believe that, uh, Antifa is the real threat and the perpetrator of political violence in the US and they like to cite sort of riots and protests during Trump's first term as evidence of this.

What are your thoughts on Antifa and do, does it even exist?

[00:56:32] David Neiwert: Um, well, uh, uh, Antifa? Or is it Antifa? You know?

[00:56:36] Chris Carr: Yeah. I'm not sure actually. Is it Antifa? I, I went for Antifa this time. It's, or is it Antifa?

[00:56:40] David Neiwert: Yeah, yeah. Nobody seems to have come up with the right pronunciation for it, but, but yeah. The, the pronunciation we get from right wing, the folks on the right is Antifa.

[00:56:51] Chris Carr: Yeah.

[00:56:52] David Neiwert: Well, it exists as a movement. Uh, but it's, it's a very tiny movement. Uh, it has very little influence in political circles. I mean, one of the things that we constantly heard from MAGA types is that this, uh, people identifying Democrats with Antifa, which was absolute bollocks, you know, there was zero, I mean, I, I, I didn't, I don't know a single Democrat. Democratic politician who, uh, supports anti fascists or that sort of thing. And likewise, I didn't know any anti fascists who actually supported Democrats. Um, it's one of the sort of unintentionally, it would be sort of hilarious if it wasn't such a serious thing, but one of the reasons that, that, uh, their plan failed on January 6th, is that they had, they, the Proud Boys and the Patriot Front folks, or, you know, the, the, all of the Oath Keepers and those folks had built this idea of Antifa up in their brains as being this, uh, singular force that was going to be out there every time that, that they marched. And they assumed that there was going to be, that they were going to be battling Antifa on the steps of the Congress, right? But Antifa didn't care about Joe Biden. They didn't care about, you know, um, there was no, there was nothing, drawing anti fascists to the January 6th rally, other than that there were going to be a bunch of fascists there. My experience with anti fascists, and I, I had some dealings with them before 2016, and every time that I encountered them, it was, they were out responding to the presence of actual neo Nazi fascists.

[00:58:50] Chris Carr: Hmm.

[00:58:51] David Neiwert: And they would do that, they showed up to make very loud and clear and sometimes violent demonstrations against the presence of these actual fascists, right?

And that's why they call themselves anti fascists. And what happened is that, that Fox News and the Republican right got a hold of this whole, um, this whole image of anti fascists as a sort of existential threat to America and built them up as, as this huge violent force spreading all across America.

Thank you, Andy Ngo, for lying your teeth, through your teeth about everybody that enjoyed this movement. Because if in fact anti fascism was a massive movement, it might be an existential threat to the country, but it wasn't. And like I say, it's a tiny movement, um, had only a few people, uh, that I ever met that were actually involved in it and, um, did not, uh, really, you know, I mean, there, there was some violence, but for the 90 percent of the violence that I saw on the streets was instigated by the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. Uh, they were the ones out there being violent and the anti Fascists were the ones more or less trying to provide sort of a defensive violence. And, um, that was, that was certainly the dynamic that I watched playing out. And, um, I mean, I got attacked a couple of times by these, uh, I got whacked.

Certainly, uh, unfortunate set of circumstances on Trump's inauguration night in 2017, I got whacked a couple of times by anti fascists. And, but, you know, they were, cause they didn't know who I was and I was out there with a camera. So, um, you know, and my own view of them is that they are kind of, can be kind of self righteous idiots, you know, who don't understand how how freedom of speech works and how free press works, but, but at the same time considering the behavior of uh, the rest of the press over the following four years, uh, I also came to understand that maybe they had a point.

So I learned, I learned how to, to deal with them, uh, make, you know, let anybody know that in street situation, what I was doing, why I was there, I was careful not to put them in position where they could get harmed by my work. Um, which was mainly what, why the reason they, that they were whacking me. But anyway, I don't have, I'm not an anti fascist fan by any means, but I also keep this all in perspective and it was very clear to me who the real threat was out there, who the real violent ones were.

There wasn't any question about that, it was these guys on the right who were coming, you know, who were coming in by busloads, usually to liberal urban areas like Portland and Seattle, uh, and they're all, they're all these guys from rural areas and exurban areas who are all right wing thugs. And they just wanted a chance to beat up some liberals.

That's what they're all about. That was the way they did it. And so, yeah, when, when, They showed up when, I mean, one of their plans on January 6th was what they were really anticipating was that, that there would be anti fascists, uh, black-clad anti fascists all over the steps of the Capitol for them to do battle with. And instead it turned out that the only people for them to do battle with were the, the Capitol Police. And so that's who they wound up attacking. And, and Trump's plan, uh, we know this because he talked about, uh, talked about quite a bit was to invoke the Insurrection Act on January 6th. That would then bring in the military and shut everything down.

And that would give him the opportunity to then, uh, delay things through Congress until he could get, uh, get his way. You know, basically talk Congress into, uh, throwing the election back to state legislatures, which would then empower Trump to remain in office. And the only reason it didn't happen was that there were no anti fascists out there that day. They didn't show their, their planned battle with the anti fascists never took place because they didn't materialize. It was all a fantasy in their brains. In the first place, they had built the built Antifa up into this huge, uh, existential threat that was going to be there everywhere they went. And, uh, you know, and I, and I've got video of them walking around, marching before the attack, the Capitol, the Proud Boys, you know, the, uh, Ethan Nordean and Joe Biggs were out there leading these guys yelling where, you know, first they would chant, fuck Antifa, right, as they're marching around the streets of Washington. And then after a while being frustrated, they just started chanting, where's Antifa? Because they were going, where are you guys? We want to, we want to battle with you. And, and they were very frustrated by the fact that anti fascists weren't out there because that's who, that's who they were used to fighting. And that's who they expected to fight. And so I think they were really thrown off by actually, uh, the fact that they wound up having to attack police. Cause you know, they saw, they saw the police as being on their side. They, um, and it's one of the things that we've got a lot of video of them talking to the police officers that they were attacking on the Capitol steps that day, calling them traitors and saying, you're supposed to be on our side. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[01:05:00] Chris Carr: Hmm. Hmm.

[01:05:01] David Neiwert: And that was part of their mindset.

[01:05:03] Chris Carr: Yeah. Well, thank you for that. Yeah. Um, I wanted to just ask one last question. Um, is there any advice you could share for people who are concerned by what they're seeing with the rise of the far right, both politically and even in their own homes?

And are there any sort of practical things within the bounds of the law that can sort of be done to kind of counter this?

[01:05:23] David Neiwert: Well, you know, a lot of our guardrails are gone. Including law enforcement guardrail, which is usually has traditionally been our guardrail against right wing extremists, uh, right wing domestic terrorists, uh, our guardrails always been law enforcement and, and let's just say that guardrail's very weak right now.

Um, certainly my, uh, you know, I had a problem with my local law enforcement or even state law enforcement. Cause I'm in a very blue state, right? But, um, but not all of them. And, uh, you know, I think, um, so I think a lot of our guardrails, uh, in dealing with the very, uh, considerable likelihood that there will be violence over the next four years directed at people, uh, who are in vulnerable situations is, um, I think it's, um, it's not anything we can just take too lightly or, you know, ignore and pretend and hope it goes away because I think we need to do some preparations.

Um, I think the best thing that a lot of us can do and what, what I'm doing is, uh, is acting locally, um, linking up arms with people that I know in my own community and forming community defense. So we're prepared. So we're preparing to. Be able to respond to situations where, uh, if any of these violent actors show up in our communities and try to, uh, form acts of violence, that we have the ability to respond with or without law enforcement.

And, or we have the, the ability to defend ourselves with or without law enforcement. And I think that, that, that is, uh, certainly, I think that that's, you know, it's obviously legal to do, make those kinds of preparations. And, uh, I think in this case it would be astute.

[01:07:26] Chris Carr: Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up today?

[01:07:29] David Neiwert: Mostly, I just hope that people understand that this isn't, uh, a lot of fantasy that this is actually happening. If this is very much a real threat, uh, we've, I've been dealing for the last 10 years, you know, one of my favorite memes, uh, that I've got on my desktop is the one that says, uh, the road to fascism is lined with people telling you to stop overreacting, right?

[01:07:56] Chris Carr: Oh, yeah. I've seen that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:07:59] David Neiwert: I've been told to stop overreacting for the last 20 years, right? Cause I've been warning about this problem for at least 20 years. And, um, and so, yeah, I, uh, my Cassandra complex has gone completely off the deep end, but yeah, I just hope that people understand that, that this, this is real, that the people who are concerned about it are not overreacting. I do think that, uh, so, uh, I, and I did mention immigrants is, by the way, is people likely to be targeted. I also think the LGBTQ community is very likely to be targeted, particularly transgender people. Um, I think that these guys, uh, have, uh, a giant bug up their butts about, uh, Transgenderism and they want to do these people harm.

Um, and you know, especially, uh, when we start having Pride events in the summer, um, and where we start at, for, we have drag queens performing and that sort of thing. Uh, we've certainly already seen these guys show up and, and, and do threatening behavior. Uh, we saw them, one of them show up at a queer bar in Colorado Springs, uh, two years ago and, and shoot the place up and killed five people and wounded 28, you know? So, um, so we know that, that, that they, that they can and will act out and in violent ways. And, uh, I don't think, I think pretending the problem away, probably and wishing that it would just be, you know, of course I hear all the time, well, if you just didn't pay attention to them, it wouldn't be a problem. They would just go away. And it's like, that's, that has never worked. It has never worked. And, and I, I have some personal experience about that. So, uh, dating back to the 70s, when we, the newspaper I worked on, we decided when we had the Aryan Nations move in down the road from us, we decided we were just gonna, uh, we're just gonna ignore it. We'll just, uh, if we don't pay attention to them, they will just go away. And within the next two years, uh, three years, they were, they were just washing all these crimes, uh, bank robberies, hate crimes, uh, you know, all this violence and I finally culminated in the rampage of The Order, which, you know, the, the, it was the neo Nazi gang that, uh, robbed 24 banks and assassinated a radio talk show host. And there's a recent movie about it starring, uh,

[01:10:52] Chris Carr: Oh yeah, there is a new film about it. So I was thinking of the old one that was directed or written by Oliver Stone. Was it directed by Oliver Stone as well? Talk Radio.

That's a really good film.

[01:11:01] David Neiwert: Yeah. And there was also a film called Betrayed, uh, that had Tom Berenger in it. But the most recent one has, uh, Nicholas Holtz playing, uh, the role of Bob Matthews, who was a guy I knew. And, uh, uh, the leader of The Order and yeah, you know, there was, uh, at any rate, I learned early on that, that if you try to pretend them away, they actually find that that's a sign of encouragement to them because they see, they see silence as a form of tacit approval and they see, they see, um, non response by the community is actual, uh, approval by the community. You know, they believe, you know, it's this conventionalism. They believe that they represent the real America and that the, that really the site, the, when they act, that they're doing it on behalf of the community and the community secretly approves of them. So, um, that's, uh, yeah, acting, staying silent and ignoring them, uh, not only doesn't work, it has the exact opposite effect, and it actually encourages them. So.

[01:12:14] Chris Carr: Yeah. Yeah. Well, wise words there. Thank you very much. Where can listeners find out more about you and your work, David?

[01:12:21] David Neiwert: Well, I'm running a substack, uh, site these days. It's called the Spy Hop.

[01:12:26] Chris Carr: Oh, that's good, that's a good name.

[01:12:29] David Neiwert: It's, it's, it's under my name, David dot Neiwert, uh, or David Neiwert at Substack. And, uh, and yeah, I, uh, am posting these days on Bluesky. I've abandoned Twitter and

[01:12:42] Chris Carr: Me too.

[01:12:43] David Neiwert: So I post quite regularly on Bluesky. So, um, so you can follow me in either of those places.

[01:12:49] Chris Carr: Fantastic. And we'll put links in our show notes there. Well, thank you very much for joining me today. It's been really great to, to catch up with you.

It's a shame it's under such circumstances. Maybe, hopefully in time we can, um, maybe catch up in less dire circumstances.

[01:13:03] David Neiwert: Yeah, who knows? I mean, I'd love to take a vacation to Europe one of these days soon. If I do, I'll give you, yeah, I love London, so I'd be glad to drop by. Anyway, I, and I, that's right. I, uh, my first, appeaance with me was, in the studio there in London.

[01:13:23] Chris Carr: It was, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was, we were talking about your, uh, your book, uh, Alt America.

Yeah. And, um, you know, sadly, you know, that interview, which was years ago, it feels very prophetic to what's going on now. So it's, uh,

[01:13:37] David Neiwert: Yeah, you know, well, like I say, Cassandra's got nothing on me, man. The seer who was doomed to be not believed, right? That was Cassandra's curse.

[01:13:53] Chris Carr: Yes. Yes, indeed. Yes. But we will always be welcome on here. And. And, and, you know, we definitely take you seriously on this show. So thank you.

[01:14:05] David Neiwert: Thanks, Chris.

[01:14:06] Chris Carr: That's all right. Thank you.