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Hi,

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I'm Zahn Valines,

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and this is the Liberating Motherhood Podcast,

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and this is our monthly bonus episode for paid subscribers.

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If you're new to our bonus episodes,

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they are poorly thought out,

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poorly planned,

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unoutlined episodes that Jeff and I come up with,

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and then you can choose to pay to listen to them.

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I'm here today with Jeff.

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No, they're free for people who have paid.

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Yeah.

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That's, yeah, they're free for people who have paid.

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That's what makes them a bonus.

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And free.

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So that's Jeff.

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He's here too.

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Hi, I'm Jeff.

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I'm Zahn's husband.

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So Jeff and I have not been together all day because we've been working,

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so this is kind of like our first interaction of the day.

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True.

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So I'm real fucking pissed off.

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Oh.

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I'm really mad at men today, so that's what we're coming into this in.

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Okay.

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So I just...

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I don't understand what the fuck is wrong with your people.

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They're not my people.

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So this month... I'm a man.

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This month we're talking about the Patriarchal Playbook.

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I use this term to refer to the collection of excuses,

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scripts,

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nonsense,

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bullshit,

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and other actions.

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that men use to guard their patriarchal privilege.

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These are things that men do unthinkingly.

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But once you start to observe the trend,

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it really does start to seem like they're given a secret book that they weaponize

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against us.

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So Jeff, is there?

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Do you get a secret book?

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uh the secret book is called society and all of the tv shows we watched growing up

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and all of the yeah yeah no it's it's just called uh what is it what is the word

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for the culture the um enculturation patriarchy there's a better one i can't think

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of it but socialization all of those but there's still a better one i don't know

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Anyway, yeah, it's out there.

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It's not explicit, but it is also very explicit.

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Yeah, so I think the thing that's most interesting is that...

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Patriarchy separates women from other women.

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So women in adulthood often don't really have a good idea of what other women's lives are like.

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And then they start reading me and the feedback that they often give me is they

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thought that it was just them.

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They thought that their husband was unique and special and meant well,

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but he's actually just exactly like all the other husbands because patriarchy

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really offers like one standard issue,

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heterosexual relationship.

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And so these women are shocked to learn that other men are using the exact same

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lines and excuses their partners do,

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even in vastly different circumstances.

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Even if those lines and excuses are not...

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relevant to them um i've covered this extensively in my weapons men's use series

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and i recently did a piece on what abusive men do when their partners leave and

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it's it's formulaic and people have written me and been like are you are you in my

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house are you stalking my husband like how do you know this and it's because the

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men who have endorsed this ideology are like

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all the same well there's a limited number of ways that they can react you know

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there's only so many ways a person can react to being left and you know most of

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them especially so many abusive ways that someone's going to react to it yeah so i

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don't know that it's surprising you know what i find so troubling is like i can see

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Like, in isolation, throughout the course of our relationship, I know that I have used lines.

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Just lines.

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Just things.

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I've seen echoes of things.

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Like, in my past.

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Um...

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And I always, I can see you getting uncomfortable.

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Like, no, because I'm always really ignorant of the degree of how terrible things are.

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And so I think anytime,

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you know,

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I say something like that,

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someone starts to think that,

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I don't know what you start to think when I say something like that,

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but what I'm driving at is...

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It's not like I wasn't raised in the same society as these guys.

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It's not like I wasn't in the same fraternities as these guys or didn't train with

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these guys or didn't play sports with these guys.

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Whatever.

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So I know them.

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The troubling thing is I left that shit behind long ago.

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And when I say that shit, I mean small elements of this stuff.

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So the reason I just want to jump in here.

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The reason I get uncomfortable is

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There's this weird dynamic where like in order to be a not sexist man,

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you have to like own the way that patriarchy has socialized you and own like the

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way it benefits you.

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But in the context of this podcast and in the context of our readership or my readership,

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I guess.

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Yes, yours.

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Yeah, mine.

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Jeff is not writing.

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I'm just here to help.

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Yeah.

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See, this is... Anyway.

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We have a lot of women who are looking for guidance in terms of essentially what to

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accept from men.

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And so they hear you say, well, like, I used to do that or I did do some of that.

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And they think, oh, he must have called her a cunt.

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And, you know, he can learn not to do that.

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And so my guy, this guy that I'm dating, can learn not to do that, too.

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And so, like...

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I just always feel the need to clarify that when Jeff says,

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like,

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he has done some of this stuff,

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he's not doing any of the kinds of things you think and never did.

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Yeah, so let's put a finer point on it then.

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I'm talking about things like...

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uh deflecting in a fight yeah blaming the other person you know they have a problem

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with you you're gonna have a problem with them you amplify your problem big enough

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you you know then they wind up apologizing when you were originally in the wrong

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i'm talking about stuff like that and that can happen in any relationship you know

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and but i'm talking about things like that i'm talking about things like

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i don't know just being condescending about something yeah um thinking that i know

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more than i do things like this i'm not talking about name calling i'm not talking

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about like getting physical or getting intentionally like threatening um at all

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like that that sort of stuff is that's just weak stuff i don't i don't get why i

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don't get why men do that but what i'm driving at is like

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You know, it's not supposed to get worse as you get older.

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It's supposed to get better.

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You're supposed to get wiser.

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You're supposed to understand your partner better as you go along.

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And you're supposed to leave the stuff behind so that when she brings a problem to you,

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you don't get defensive about it because you have some confidence and you don't

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feel so criticized.

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And, you know...

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because you're a fucking man who's a grownup and who can handle things.

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Okay,

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so that's like,

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I think that's actually like an interesting point and just kind of like a side

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tangent for women dating men.

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The normal development of like the human person is that ideally you're getting wiser with age.

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I am a much better partner than I was 15 years ago or even five years ago and a

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much stabler,

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better person because like I've accumulated

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many many many more skills and that should be the normal like course of development

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that like you get better at your relationship as you get older your partner gets

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better at relating as they get older and that's certainly been the reality for jeff

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and me uh for most men it's that they start out bad and they get worse because

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patriarchy enables them

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Yeah,

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but what I don't understand about these guys is like,

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okay,

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do you like fighting with your spouse?

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I know, right?

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Fighting makes everyone feel like shit.

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So why aren't you getting better at avoiding fights?

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Is it because... Oh, I think they are getting better at it.

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They're getting better at making it so that their partners can't bring up problems.

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And all of the problems...

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are generally with the man because the problems with the woman,

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they exist,

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they're just so much smaller than the problems with the man that they never get broached.

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Yeah, no, they're getting better at it by shutting it down.

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Yeah.

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And they're shutting it down because they're just angry and they're going to be

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intimidating and they're going to make it hell to pay.

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Mm-hmm.

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maybe there'd be hell to pay if if if she brings something up and so i think

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there's also some pleasure in these fights for these guys i'm sure there's like a

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substantial contingent of them who get off on being you know feared like you know

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you're going to your shitty job your boss is talking shit to you you know you're

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you're you're weak here you're you know whatever um you don't make enough money

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So you feel like shit and then you go home and you're going to be the tough guy.

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Now you're the one who's in control.

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And I think there's probably a lot about that.

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I mean, that's just, that's just, you know, that's just weak bullshit.

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Like I don't, I don't get it.

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So I think,

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um,

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like what's at the core of this like patriarchal playbook thing is you and I often

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talk about like the woman appliance and,

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And, you know, every man like gets a woman appliance.

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And if your woman appliance malfunctions,

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you just like replace her with a different one or you like abuse her into being different.

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And I truly do think that this is the model of how most men approach their marriages.

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And so if you never learn how to relate meaningfully to a woman as anything other

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than a useful appliance,

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there's little to no emotional intimacy.

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There's not expanding knowledge of each other.

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There's not an acknowledgement of her, like, unique human dignity.

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And so there's no ability to see your partner as an individual whose needs matter.

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And no ability to, like, really see her as an individual at all.

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So men just experiment with what works.

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Kind of like how we do when our fucking dishwasher just won't stop slamming open no

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matter how many times.

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What do we do?

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We fix it.

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We stop fixing it.

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Well, we kept... I don't think that one breaks down.

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I don't think...

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That's true.

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But we did experiment with different dishwasher repair people for a while to see if

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any of them could fix it.

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I don't think this one works.

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No, it's true.

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It's okay.

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It's fair.

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It's fair.

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Yeah, we didn't put a lot of effort into fixing the dishwasher.

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But,

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you know,

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like if you don't really care about why someone is doing something,

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you just like keep pushing buttons until you see what works.

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And that's what these men are doing with their partners.

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They try this thing.

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That doesn't work.

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So they just pivot to the next thing.

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And before you know it, they've lobbed 10 things at the woman and she's overwhelmed.

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She's trying to respond to all of them.

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She's pretending that he's arguing in good faith,

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but he's just seeing which combination of buttons will work.

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Well, what about this question for a partner?

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It's like, what is the goal of this partnership?

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Is the goal that we support each other so that we each can accomplish more than we could alone?

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Or is the goal that I support you

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so that you can do what you want.

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And I get to do what I want,

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which the man assumes is just doing everything,

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cleaning,

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you know,

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dealing with the kids.

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And,

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you know,

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I think a lot of men,

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like,

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obviously,

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think that that is what the relationship should be.

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And a lot of women dream of having the relationship where it's like,

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oh,

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yeah,

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we support each other so that we can both accomplish more in life.

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And, you know, we build each other up.

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And,

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we'd be each other safe people and you know like that's what a partnership is

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that's that's why two business partners form a partnership right like so they can

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pool resources we're gonna now we can hire an assistant together and we can pay the

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rent and we can split the rent and then we'll split the profits and this will be

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great

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But that's not how most relationships go.

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And I think if you're in a relationship where that is not the goal,

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and the goal is just to extract work from you,

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then why would you be in that relationship?

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And I guess the answer is because you're scared.

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Yeah.

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So the thing that really makes this patriarchal playbook work, in my opinion, is, you know,

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Once you really fully believe that women are fully human and that their needs matter,

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it just becomes very obvious what these men are doing.

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That they're not cunning liars.

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They're just haphazardly grabbing at whatever can work and using their patriarchal

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power to intimidate women.

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But when you don't see women as fully people, it's harder to see.

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And most women have been socialized to not see themselves as...

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meaningfully human in the same way that men are.

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We learn that we are entitled for wanting things.

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The very act of wanting something is wrong.

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We learn that we have to give men a chance.

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We learn that we shouldn't be alone.

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You know, we learn that if someone is mad at us, it's always our fault.

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We learn that we can single-handedly fix men, fix relationships.

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We treat ourselves as like accommodations for broken men.

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And so...

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women are coming to these arguments in good faith and they're like trying to

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respond to the bullshit that these men are spewing at them but these men don't even

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mean what they're saying yeah that's it's crazy to hear you like say like what

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women are raised to think because i'll tell you what men are generally raised to

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think about relationships do it themselves

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The most important thing in your life is your hobbies and how good you are at them.

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And the most important thing in a relationship is sex.

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Yeah.

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And I think that's true.

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I think that's true that that's what men learn.

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It is true.

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I'm telling you.

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That's what we learn.

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And when I talk about hobbies,

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I mean,

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it's like that Fight Club speech of everyone's raised to believe they're going to

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be astronaut or superstar or whatever.

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Yeah.

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And they're not.

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And so,

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like,

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what do these men do when they realize that they're not going to fulfill their

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childhood dream of,

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you know,

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playing some professional sport they were never good at?

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They start an underground fight club.

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I mean, like, no, it's true.

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Yeah.

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And so, and they leave their wives at home with the kids.

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Well,

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there's a corollary to that with women that I see a lot that I think is really important,

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which is that women are taught

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that it's fine to ask for equality as long as men don't have to give anything up.

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And so what that reduces to is like, you can't actually ask for equality.

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Women believe that it is a tragedy for men to have to give anything up.

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If he's giving up his golf outing to come home and help you take care of the kids

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or to take the kids so that you can go do something that's important to you,

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that's asking too much.

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And, like, all of society will tell you that's asking too much.

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A core rule of patriarchy is that men should not have to give things up.

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Yeah, I mean... I guess that's real nice if you don't give a shit about your spouse.

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Yeah.

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Because,

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like,

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I...

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That's the only way that you could be okay with that,

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is if you just don't give a shit and you only care about yourself.

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Yeah, I mean, I would...

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Like a world where you can pursue every whim and dream you have, like, with no consequences.

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Oh, I could fill my time.

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I could never be home.

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I could have hobbies unending, you know, weekly schedule.

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Like...

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easily.

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Yeah.

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And what would that get me?

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Exactly.

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Because if I did that, you'd get pissed.

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Yeah.

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And so then what's my only option if I'm not going to give that up and you get pissed?

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Right.

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Control.

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Right.

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Fear.

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Yeah.

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Threats.

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Yeah.

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And so like the world that I prefer is the one where like you have a relationship

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with your children and don't die like with regrets and frankly die alone because

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like men wield this thing with women of like,

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oh,

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you're going to die alone with your cats.

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And

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Women don't die alone because women's children remain steadfastly loyal to them.

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They maintain emotional connections.

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They have friendships.

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It's men who die alone.

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Right.

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But also, like...

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I mean, I say all of that.

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I could fill out my time and all this stuff.

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But like, what's more important than being a parent?

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Right.

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What's more important than raising the next generation of humans?

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What's why isn't that a hobby?

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Because like that's I mean, it's obviously more than a hobby.

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But you know what I mean?

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Like I could go rock climbing or I could take my kids to the playground and teach

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them how to,

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you know,

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go down the big slide or something like that for the first time.

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And it's like, why is that stuff not ingrained in men?

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I think just because boys are taught to play and taught to do sports and taught to

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go off and do their own things and their moms stay home and do all of the work.

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And generally, probably didn't even complain much about it.

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My mother, obviously, let me know what was going on.

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But...

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relentlessly endlessly yeah and my dad wasn't near you know he was not these guys

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yeah that like everybody is is is all these stories he wasn't even that but my mom

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still let me know about it but still um you know that that's that's how men are

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raised and you know the question is like when do you stop acting like a boy uh

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who's entitled to things and entitled to

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pursue all of these ultimately meaningless things and when do you actually grow the

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fuck up and realize that there are more important things that people depend on you

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and that your kids are what matter and your relationship is what matters and like

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yeah you can have time you'd be surprised at how much you can get done in 20

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minutes a day with a hobby exercise or you know music or whatever like it's plenty

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of time just don't be a selfish asshole

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I mean, speak for yourself.

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My weightlifting isn't going so well.

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Oh, you just haven't found the thing that you like yet.

(00:18:46):
It's because I fundamentally don't like exercise.

(00:18:52):
That's another thing.

(00:18:58):
I wish I could just say, like, don't exercise because, like, that would be great.

(00:19:03):
And the only concern is, you know,

(00:19:07):
What does that look like for us when we're 60?

(00:19:10):
Jeff and I are both on like fitness kicks right now.

(00:19:12):
Because we're getting older.

(00:19:13):
Yeah.

(00:19:14):
And we're like,

(00:19:14):
oh shit,

(00:19:15):
we got to get this together so that we're like,

(00:19:18):
you know,

(00:19:19):
these people we see in their 70s who are still kicking ass as opposed to these

(00:19:22):
other people we see in their 70s who are having trouble getting around.

(00:19:25):
It's like there's only one way to do that.

(00:19:27):
So like the way the exercise is going right now is that,

(00:19:31):
you know,

(00:19:31):
Jeff comes upstairs after his...

(00:19:34):
weightlifting time.

(00:19:35):
And he's like, wow, I, I feel, I feel really great.

(00:19:38):
And,

(00:19:38):
you know,

(00:19:39):
you just make progress if you just work really hard and it's just,

(00:19:42):
you know,

(00:19:42):
it's just so happy.

(00:19:43):
And,

(00:19:43):
you know,

(00:19:44):
you just,

(00:19:44):
you just have to keep trying and,

(00:19:45):
you know,

(00:19:46):
it's amazing what you can do with consistency.

(00:19:48):
And I come upstairs and I say, every day that I do this, I feel a little bit worse.

(00:19:54):
And that, that is where we are right now.

(00:19:56):
So maybe check back in with us in six months.

(00:19:58):
Maybe it will reverse, but I don't think it will.

(00:20:01):
I don't know what to tell you, Zan.

(00:20:03):
I think you just got to find something that's fun.

(00:20:08):
All right.

(00:20:08):
So, patriarchy playbook.

(00:20:11):
I want to give a couple of examples because Jeff is like...

(00:20:16):
I think that Jeff is very much divorced from what typical men are like because he

(00:20:21):
chooses not to associate with them.

(00:20:24):
Not true.

(00:20:24):
I spent all day with two other guys.

(00:20:27):
Yeah, but I mean, they're not...

(00:20:31):
Jeff is not hanging out with bros.

(00:20:33):
He's just not.

(00:20:34):
No, that's true.

(00:20:36):
So, all right.

(00:20:39):
One of the weirdest ones that keeps coming up in my group and in comments with

(00:20:44):
friends and all of this is what's the first thing a guy does when the woman says

(00:20:51):
she's going to end the relationship?

(00:20:53):
No matter how much time they've spent talking.

(00:20:55):
Cries.

(00:20:57):
Yes, there's crying.

(00:20:59):
But then, then.

(00:21:01):
He wants to talk.

(00:21:03):
And,

(00:21:04):
you know,

(00:21:04):
the implicit message here is,

(00:21:06):
okay,

(00:21:06):
now I'm really ready to talk after all the talking you've done that I haven't

(00:21:09):
listened to.

(00:21:10):
But then he always does one better.

(00:21:12):
And this is the weirdest part, because like, I would say like half of these men do it.

(00:21:16):
They say, can we just go for a walk together?

(00:21:20):
They want to go for a walk and they want to talk.

(00:21:23):
I don't know why they want to go for a walk.

(00:21:24):
I think there's this notion of like, you know, long romantic walk on the beach, walking.

(00:21:30):
You know,

(00:21:31):
it's kind of like occupational therapy where you're doing something else that

(00:21:34):
enables you to share your true emotions where he's going to like,

(00:21:40):
I don't know,

(00:21:40):
what is he going to say on the walk?

(00:21:42):
No witnesses on the walk also.

(00:21:44):
It's not like going to Starbucks where if you start pounding the table,

(00:21:47):
people are going to notice.

(00:21:48):
Yeah.

(00:21:49):
True.

(00:21:49):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know what's happening on these walks.

(00:21:51):
But it's just weird.

(00:21:52):
They all just have this let's go for a walk thing where they're suddenly trying to

(00:21:56):
be like light and I don't know.

(00:21:58):
So another thing that we see is fake remorse.

(00:22:02):
You know,

(00:22:03):
we all pretty much eventually learn that we have to apologize when we do something

(00:22:07):
wrong and we have to come up with some way of fixing it.

(00:22:10):
But these men feel... Some of us.

(00:22:12):
I mean... Well, that's the thing.

(00:22:14):
They don't actually feel remorse.

(00:22:16):
And they're not actually sorry.

(00:22:17):
Right.

(00:22:18):
And they don't feel like they owe their partners anything.

(00:22:22):
So they have to, like, drum up some remorse to regain access to the appliance.

(00:22:27):
But they don't actually feel remorseful.

(00:22:28):
So it's fake remorse.

(00:22:30):
And one of the things they do is, like, they'll recite a script.

(00:22:34):
And then...

(00:22:35):
they'll insist that, okay, it's all in the past.

(00:22:37):
Now men have this notion that they are entitled to a clean slate continuously, which is weird.

(00:22:45):
Cause like everything you do is immediately in the past.

(00:22:49):
I mean, at a certain point, apologies can't just be verbal, right?

(00:22:54):
Right.

(00:22:55):
They have to be actual action sustained over a period of time.

(00:23:00):
Um,

(00:23:02):
And let's be real, most men aren't going to do that.

(00:23:04):
Most people can't just change how they live.

(00:23:10):
If it hasn't been a gradual process over the course of months or years even,

(00:23:17):
it's not going to be an immediate process.

(00:23:21):
It might be for a couple days, but it'll wane.

(00:23:24):
Well,

(00:23:24):
and that's the fundamental thing here is that men can change,

(00:23:29):
men can do better,

(00:23:31):
men can improve.

(00:23:32):
Um,

(00:23:33):
you know,

(00:23:33):
to maintain otherwise would be to suggest that men don't have free will,

(00:23:36):
which they obviously do,

(00:23:38):
but men don't change.

(00:23:40):
And the reason that they don't change is that if you're able to buy your free time,

(00:23:45):
your leisure,

(00:23:46):
your rest,

(00:23:47):
your whatever with your partner suffering and be okay with that,

(00:23:51):
then you don't actually care about your partner as a person in a meaningful way.

(00:23:58):
And so when the chips are down and like that person is threatening to leave you,

(00:24:03):
the odds are very,

(00:24:04):
very good that these guys are just going to look for a new partner rather than

(00:24:08):
change because they never actually cared about the partner.

(00:24:10):
Like if your partner has behaved in this way,

(00:24:13):
they just don't care about you in the ways that actually matter.

(00:24:18):
And that is why change is so difficult.

(00:24:21):
It is also why so many of these men propose fake solutions.

(00:24:26):
So for example,

(00:24:28):
Rather than saying,

(00:24:29):
all right,

(00:24:29):
starting tomorrow morning,

(00:24:32):
I am going to get up with the kids every day when they wake up,

(00:24:36):
no matter what,

(00:24:37):
forever.

(00:24:38):
He says, I'm going to make a list of therapists to call.

(00:24:42):
And then maybe in three more weeks, I'll call them.

(00:24:45):
And then maybe in three more weeks after that, you'll go to therapy where he can gaslight you.

(00:24:50):
And for all of that time, he's been getting more free labor from you.

(00:24:54):
And you've been feeling like he's doing something because,

(00:24:57):
well,

(00:24:57):
he's looking into therapy or he's going to therapy or whatever.

(00:25:00):
So they're really big on these fake solutions where they'll say,

(00:25:02):
oh,

(00:25:03):
let's read the Fair Play book.

(00:25:05):
I know you've been asking me to do it for six years.

(00:25:07):
Let's read it now.

(00:25:08):
And so then you'll fight your way through the book.

(00:25:10):
It'll take 18 months.

(00:25:11):
You'll spend endless hours fighting about each task card.

(00:25:16):
it all of these fake solutions are like really about buying time and about the

(00:25:19):
appearance of change instead of actual change like he can propose meaningful change

(00:25:24):
and implement it right now maybe it does take some time to get to 50 50 make it

(00:25:29):
maybe it does take some time to recover from years of verbal abuse or whatever but

(00:25:34):
like he can start doing it he can propose a meaningful solution like right now this

(00:25:38):
moment today

(00:25:40):
Yeah, certainly.

(00:25:42):
And the thing is, change can't depend on someone's mental state.

(00:25:49):
It changes action.

(00:25:50):
And so I'm going to call a therapist.

(00:25:52):
It's like, okay, that's fine.

(00:25:53):
That's your shit.

(00:25:54):
You want to do that in free time?

(00:25:56):
That's fine.

(00:25:56):
What I need for you is to, for example, get up with the kids.

(00:25:59):
Yeah.

(00:26:00):
And getting up with the kids is not something that you can say,

(00:26:03):
oh,

(00:26:03):
well,

(00:26:03):
I have ADD,

(00:26:04):
so I'm not good at paying the bills or something like that.

(00:26:07):
You can't really mental health your way out of something like getting up with the kids.

(00:26:12):
You know,

(00:26:12):
if there's some extenuating circumstance,

(00:26:14):
like he's a police officer who works night shift.

(00:26:17):
It's like, OK, then we'll choose a different example.

(00:26:18):
OK, but but, you know, there are.

(00:26:22):
absolutely concrete things that someone can do to show that they're actually

(00:26:26):
committed to making these changes.

(00:26:28):
And it doesn't have to all be at once because that's just like not how anyone

(00:26:33):
changes anything about their life.

(00:26:35):
Like you can't just wake up and be completely different,

(00:26:38):
but you can absolutely immediately start doing something differently.

(00:26:43):
Well,

(00:26:43):
you know,

(00:26:44):
not just thinking through this while you were talking,

(00:26:47):
I was thinking about this.

(00:26:49):
And it's just dawned on me that I think maybe one of the signs of like a healthy

(00:26:52):
relationship is that when the other person voices concerns,

(00:26:58):
you start offering things you can do to help.

(00:27:01):
You know,

(00:27:01):
there's this stereotype of men trying to solve women's problems by telling them

(00:27:04):
like what the women should do differently.

(00:27:06):
But.

(00:27:08):
what Jeff and I often have happened when we are venting to one another about our

(00:27:11):
various problems is he'll say,

(00:27:14):
oh,

(00:27:14):
well,

(00:27:14):
let me just do this and that'll help.

(00:27:16):
And I'll start suggesting things that I can do to the point where like sometimes it

(00:27:18):
becomes a problem where Jeff's like,

(00:27:20):
no,

(00:27:20):
no,

(00:27:21):
no,

(00:27:21):
I don't want you to propose that you do more of this.

(00:27:23):
I just want you to listen to me vent.

(00:27:25):
I want to be able to complain about this thing without you being like,

(00:27:28):
oh,

(00:27:28):
well,

(00:27:28):
I'll do all of these things so that you don't have to deal with that anymore.

(00:27:31):
I'm like, no, I'm not saying that.

(00:27:33):
But we both have this impulse of like,

(00:27:36):
If the other person is overwhelmed,

(00:27:38):
okay,

(00:27:38):
here are five things that I can do right now to help you.

(00:27:41):
And that's because we love each other.

(00:27:42):
And I think that if you're not seeing that in your partner,

(00:27:47):
if your partner is seeing you suffer and they don't have a single idea on their own

(00:27:52):
of what they could do to help you.

(00:27:54):
I think that's a really bad sign.

(00:27:57):
Yeah, no, it is.

(00:27:58):
I mean, like even like small stuff, like, you know,

(00:28:05):
Zahn has done something so I'm going to pick our daughter up from school as often

(00:28:12):
as I possibly can you know to at least start getting her like 40 minutes here 40

(00:28:18):
minutes there and like you know stuff like that where it's just like or or like

(00:28:24):
I've had some crazy work time and so I'm gonna take

(00:28:28):
uh,

(00:28:28):
you know,

(00:28:29):
one of our daughters in the morning as often as I can for the next few weeks to try

(00:28:32):
to balance things out.

(00:28:33):
Like I don't, I just do that because like, that's the right thing to do.

(00:28:37):
Yeah.

(00:28:38):
And it's also like, we do a lot of balance over time.

(00:28:42):
Our jobs are such that we're not like working nine to five,

(00:28:45):
you know,

(00:28:46):
Jeff will have periods of time where he's actually working like 80 to a hundred

(00:28:51):
hour weeks,

(00:28:52):
you know,

(00:28:52):
staying up half the night working and all of that.

(00:28:54):
Um,

(00:28:56):
Because that's like the nature of the work.

(00:28:57):
And then, you know, after a few weeks of that, it will calm down.

(00:29:01):
And so...

(00:29:02):
you know, I'm bearing the brunt of most of the labor during those periods of time.

(00:29:05):
And then when it calms down, like we switch back.

(00:29:08):
But also like,

(00:29:09):
just to clarify when it,

(00:29:10):
so like,

(00:29:12):
if I have to get up early because I have to go to court or something,

(00:29:16):
like I still get up,

(00:29:18):
I still make breakfast.

(00:29:19):
I still like make the kids lunch.

(00:29:21):
Like, like this shit is not an excuse.

(00:29:24):
Like, obviously I can't get someone from school if I'm in court.

(00:29:28):
So like, you know, that's the sort of slack that

(00:29:31):
you know, needs to be picked up.

(00:29:32):
But, like, you don't just give up on everything because you're busy.

(00:29:35):
Because, like, you know, life is hard.

(00:29:37):
And you just gotta...

(00:29:38):
Men are constantly looking for,

(00:29:40):
like,

(00:29:40):
hall passes where they've,

(00:29:41):
like,

(00:29:42):
technically checked the box of,

(00:29:44):
like,

(00:29:45):
well,

(00:29:45):
you know,

(00:29:47):
I have to be there at 8 o'clock and,

(00:29:49):
you know...

(00:29:51):
I only have 15 minutes to give in the morning because of that.

(00:29:54):
So I'm not going to give any time at all.

(00:29:56):
It's like, well, actually you should give the 15 minutes.

(00:29:59):
Well, and you should just get up an extra 15 minutes early that day.

(00:30:02):
And you know, most people don't have jobs like this where they have these big things come up.

(00:30:07):
Like most people are just nine to five and it's not that hard.

(00:30:12):
Yeah.

(00:30:13):
I mean, that's the other thing is like men just weaponize their jobs in such a weird way.

(00:30:17):
Um,

(00:30:19):
and they they lionize their jobs i'm a provider if you're not providing your

(00:30:24):
partner with like emotional support quality sex a safe home like a meaningful

(00:30:32):
co-parent you're not a provider you just have a fucking job which is something

(00:30:36):
everybody has to have like it's not special you're not special because you work for

(00:30:41):
pay and like i just really wish we could get past this thing of like

(00:30:45):
Well, men are providers because they work for pay.

(00:30:47):
Almost as many women work as men.

(00:30:51):
Yeah, so... I forget what I was going to say.

(00:30:56):
Well, you have to remember it.

(00:30:57):
I know, but there's just so much pressure.

(00:31:00):
Oh.

(00:31:03):
We'll say something different.

(00:31:04):
Well... Oh, I guess what I was going to say is...

(00:31:11):
It's just like, you know, it sounds silly, I guess.

(00:31:15):
But, you know, like when you could do something nice for another person, you feel good about it.

(00:31:19):
And I think what so many partners don't realize is like when you actually do

(00:31:23):
something nice for your spouse or when you actually do something nice for your kids,

(00:31:27):
you actually feel good.

(00:31:28):
Yeah.

(00:31:29):
And that's what I think so many men just don't comprehend at all.

(00:31:35):
Yeah.

(00:31:36):
Well,

(00:31:37):
I think a lot of men are going through their lives without any meaningful emotional

(00:31:41):
connection to anyone or anything.

(00:31:44):
And when you don't have that, you have to seek other sources of pleasure that are much emptier.

(00:31:50):
And so it becomes a self-replicating cycle of,

(00:31:54):
you know,

(00:31:54):
they feel empty because they haven't nurtured any connection with their spouse or

(00:31:57):
their kids or their family.

(00:31:59):
And so,

(00:32:00):
you know,

(00:32:00):
by God,

(00:32:01):
I'm going to have my golf or I'm going to make this whole fucking family pay.

(00:32:05):
Yeah,

(00:32:06):
and I think,

(00:32:07):
you know,

(00:32:07):
we're obviously talking mostly about parents when we're talking about these relationships.

(00:32:11):
Because that's like, kids are when they're real, when the shit really hits the fan.

(00:32:16):
But it begins before kids.

(00:32:17):
There are warning signs.

(00:32:19):
Oh, I'm sure.

(00:32:19):
You know,

(00:32:21):
someone asked me recently,

(00:32:23):
like,

(00:32:23):
why do things change so dramatically when kids arrive?

(00:32:26):
Like, why do men, like, show their true colors?

(00:32:28):
And I don't actually think that's what's going on.

(00:32:30):
I think what's happening is there is more work when there are kids.

(00:32:34):
And so what happens is...

(00:32:36):
The woman increases her work and the man doesn't increase his.

(00:32:40):
So let's say you had to spend like an hour on home maintenance a day before the kids.

(00:32:46):
If she's spending 45 minutes and he's spending 15,

(00:32:49):
you know,

(00:32:49):
that's a pretty significant disparity,

(00:32:52):
but it doesn't seem that significant because it's not a lot of time.

(00:32:55):
You know,

(00:32:55):
when you project that out to kids,

(00:32:57):
it becomes a lot more time,

(00:32:58):
especially if he still keeps his 15 minutes and she's increasing to,

(00:33:03):
you know,

(00:33:04):
all day.

(00:33:05):
I think another thing that's going on in a lot of relationships,

(00:33:09):
and this is really easy for things to start to slide,

(00:33:16):
is if a man gets away with something once,

(00:33:22):
he's going to think he can do it again.

(00:33:24):
So if he comes home late...

(00:33:27):
It's like, and you don't say anything.

(00:33:29):
There's no problem with that.

(00:33:30):
Oh, well, I guess I can do that.

(00:33:32):
If he comes late and,

(00:33:34):
you know,

(00:33:35):
you're pissed off and he gets really threatening and then it goes away.

(00:33:40):
It's like, oh, well, I guess I can do that.

(00:33:43):
And I think there's a lot of slipping in terms of as soon as...

(00:33:50):
As soon as...

(00:33:51):
As soon as something works.

(00:33:52):
As soon as something works, like, you know, like Zahn said before...

(00:33:57):
there's not a lot of masterminding going on in most relationships some there

(00:34:01):
certainly is like like there's there's some where like people are really get off on

(00:34:07):
abuse and control but I think the vast majority of these are just like reacting and

(00:34:13):
conditioned responses and uh you know like I said if if they do something and they

(00:34:19):
get a good result then they're gonna do it again yeah and so um

(00:34:24):
I think this is also why men often get so much worse after a woman threatens to leave,

(00:34:32):
but doesn't actually leave or says she's going to file for divorce,

(00:34:35):
but like nothing changes because they've seen that it can be taken to that point

(00:34:42):
and still nothing happens.

(00:34:45):
Um,

(00:34:46):
and this is like not blaming women for not enforcing their boundaries because again,

(00:34:51):
there are really high consequences,

(00:34:52):
especially once there are kids.

(00:34:55):
But particularly early in a relationship,

(00:34:57):
like,

(00:34:58):
I mean,

(00:34:59):
you have it straight from the horse's mouth telling you,

(00:35:02):
like,

(00:35:02):
men are testing what they can get away with.

(00:35:05):
Yeah.

(00:35:05):
Yeah.

(00:35:06):
They're like the velociraptors in Jurassic Park testing the electronic fans for weaknesses.

(00:35:13):
Just like that.

(00:35:15):
That guy with the hat said.

(00:35:17):
Oh, my God.

(00:35:19):
How's that?

(00:35:20):
That's dark, but that's true.

(00:35:22):
Yeah.

(00:35:25):
yeah so there that definitely goes on um do you do that no yeah why would it i'm

(00:35:37):
trying to think of a context in which i would do that well the reason i ask is

(00:35:40):
because again like the this this dynamic of like man is like caged velociraptor it

(00:35:48):
is is only occurring once the relationship

(00:35:51):
or really once the man is just fundamentally broken.

(00:35:53):
Well, but it's also, it's not necessarily a conscious process.

(00:35:56):
And so I hesitate when you say, do I do that?

(00:35:58):
I mean, we all are.

(00:36:01):
I see no signs of it.

(00:36:03):
No,

(00:36:03):
I,

(00:36:04):
I,

(00:36:04):
I actually try to make sure I'm not like,

(00:36:07):
you know,

(00:36:07):
like if,

(00:36:08):
if you're doing laundry and I don't help and,

(00:36:10):
you didn't say anything and then i'm like oh well i guess i don't have to help with

(00:36:14):
the laundry on tuesdays um you know that's that's what i would think if if if i

(00:36:21):
wanted to get out of doing the laundry uh but i don't um and so yeah but you know

(00:36:28):
we all we all just uh

(00:36:32):
We all just try to, I don't know what we all try to do.

(00:36:36):
I can't finish that sentence in a meaningful way.

(00:36:39):
Well,

(00:36:39):
the other thing that I think is going on is in so many of these relationships,

(00:36:42):
there's so much indirect communication because it's not safe to speak directly.

(00:36:47):
You know, I can come to you and, and, and have come to you.

(00:36:50):
Yeah.

(00:36:51):
Okay.

(00:36:51):
So here's, here's an example of like where we actually have to negotiate like fairness.

(00:36:56):
Jeff will have these times where work is really busy.

(00:37:00):
And where he just has to spend most of his time at work and I just have to pick up

(00:37:04):
the slack with the kids.

(00:37:05):
And like,

(00:37:06):
that's,

(00:37:06):
that's the deal we made because like his work is really important and you know,

(00:37:10):
it's important for making a good future for our kids too.

(00:37:12):
And also I usually don't, I usually spend my time at home when I'm working.

(00:37:15):
Yeah.

(00:37:16):
Yeah.

(00:37:16):
I mean,

(00:37:16):
he's doing everything he can,

(00:37:17):
but you know,

(00:37:18):
there'll be things like Jeff usually does the cooking at night,

(00:37:21):
cleans the kitchen,

(00:37:22):
that sort of thing.

(00:37:24):
and i may have to take up some of those things not cooking not ever cooking um no

(00:37:29):
but you'll like help clean the kitchen yeah instead of like you know you usually

(00:37:34):
get like 30-ish minutes after dinner to do whatever you want and i clean and hang

(00:37:38):
out with the kids and like but if i have to work if i get a brief due then yeah

(00:37:42):
you'll stay help to clean the kitchen so that i can get to work 30 minutes earlier

(00:37:45):
but

(00:37:47):
After the brief is done, sometimes we have to reconfigure responsibilities.

(00:37:51):
Sometimes I have to be like, hey, no, the brief is done.

(00:37:54):
You can't do a cursory cleaning of the kitchen.

(00:37:56):
You have to do the whole thing.

(00:37:58):
And do you start smashing and talking about how,

(00:38:01):
like,

(00:38:01):
I just have unreasonable standards and...

(00:38:05):
No.

(00:38:06):
They always clean it the same way.

(00:38:11):
It's always...

(00:38:17):
oh no no we don't have to cut that that no i don't ever try to do a cursory

(00:38:22):
cleaning i always try to do my best work but some nights i do leave a couple things

(00:38:29):
and then you tell me that's not acceptable and then i say i will do better but the

(00:38:34):
point is so people get into patterns

(00:38:38):
We will get into them too when he has these times of intense work.

(00:38:42):
When I come to you after a time of work, then you're reintegrating back into the family.

(00:38:50):
And I tell you, okay, things are not yet rebalanced.

(00:38:56):
Do you say, all right, let's get out the fair playbook and spend 18 months going through it?

(00:38:59):
No.

(00:39:01):
Do you demand that I make a list of each and every task that needs to be done and

(00:39:05):
that we do it in couples therapy for the next six years?

(00:39:08):
No.

(00:39:08):
What do you do?

(00:39:10):
I just, I listen and then I'm like, okay, I'll do better.

(00:39:14):
Yeah.

(00:39:15):
And this is like not what's happening in most relationships.

(00:39:18):
Yeah.

(00:39:19):
Because you can't even make it explicit.

(00:39:21):
And then when you do, they'll just do anything to get out of the discussion.

(00:39:24):
Because they're all just little boys who want their mom to do everything for them.

(00:39:30):
Yes.

(00:39:31):
And that's why then women don't want to have sex with them.

(00:39:35):
That and the... The filth.

(00:39:37):
The filth.

(00:39:38):
The shit.

(00:39:39):
The sexual inadequacy.

(00:39:40):
The shit on the sheets.

(00:39:43):
Oh, God.

(00:39:45):
I made Jeff last night read through all of the comments on one of my Men in Hygiene

(00:39:50):
articles because I just really wanted him to understand the scope of how dark

(00:39:54):
things are out there.

(00:39:55):
He did not make it through.

(00:39:59):
I mean, yeah.

(00:40:03):
It was pretty, like, what the fuck?

(00:40:07):
Yeah.

(00:40:09):
I don't know what's going on with these guys not wiping their asses.

(00:40:15):
See, this is one thing I can say.

(00:40:17):
Okay, so I'm pretty sure that all of the men I've associated with in my adult life...

(00:40:25):
I'm just thinking of them.

(00:40:26):
Like people I was, you know, friendly or friends with.

(00:40:29):
I'm already saying no.

(00:40:31):
I am already saying no.

(00:40:32):
Would be repulsed by the thought of not wiping their ass after they shit.

(00:40:35):
No.

(00:40:36):
I can't... No.

(00:40:40):
No?

(00:40:40):
No.

(00:40:41):
Oh, God.

(00:40:46):
See, this is the thing.

(00:40:47):
It's like... The behaviors that you or that anybody sees...

(00:40:55):
I mean, I know you know this, are not necessarily the behaviors that their wives see.

(00:40:59):
What percentage of men do you think are not?

(00:41:04):
Are like leaving shit stains at some places?

(00:41:07):
Okay,

(00:41:07):
so when I surveyed people,

(00:41:08):
I think it was like 22% said that hygiene was like their most significant barrier

(00:41:13):
to having sex with their husband.

(00:41:15):
That's crazy that it's the most significant because like most of your respondents

(00:41:20):
have like other problems in their marriage.

(00:41:22):
Right.

(00:41:23):
But hygiene is so bad.

(00:41:25):
It's the most.

(00:41:26):
Yeah.

(00:41:26):
Like you could still do all these fucked up things and be super selfish.

(00:41:31):
Or like,

(00:41:31):
okay,

(00:41:32):
so when I posted the question to my group,

(00:41:34):
which has like,

(00:41:35):
this is the private support group,

(00:41:36):
which had like about a thousand members at the time.

(00:41:40):
I would say that I got probably like 40 or 50 really like horrific responses.

(00:41:47):
And you know,

(00:41:47):
this is like a feminist group,

(00:41:49):
so I don't think it necessarily skews toward people who have bad relationships.

(00:41:53):
There are a lot of people in the group who have good relationships with partners.

(00:41:59):
Um,

(00:41:59):
You know,

(00:42:00):
if I mention men and hygiene to,

(00:42:02):
like,

(00:42:02):
any given woman,

(00:42:04):
she will know what I'm talking about,

(00:42:06):
even if,

(00:42:06):
like,

(00:42:06):
her current partner does not have that issue.

(00:42:08):
Like, she has had a partner with that issue.

(00:42:13):
So, you know, I think the way you're framing it is, like, well, they seem normal.

(00:42:18):
They don't seem like they're walking around with shitty asses.

(00:42:22):
But, like, that is normal for men.

(00:42:24):
And I think that's a good, like...

(00:42:30):
I think that's a good analog to kind of a lot of the other things with men that all

(00:42:36):
of the bad behavior that men engage in is normal.

(00:42:39):
So like the men who engage in it seem normal.

(00:42:41):
Well, and I've, like, I've really, all of your work has really opened my eyes.

(00:42:46):
And, like, so I see men differently now.

(00:42:50):
And I,

(00:42:51):
you know,

(00:42:52):
I'll see someone or be talking to someone,

(00:42:54):
and I'm just like,

(00:42:54):
you must be a fucking nightmare to deal with in your marriage.

(00:42:57):
And so, like, I've come, like, you know, my thinking has evolved dramatically.

(00:43:05):
But, and so...

(00:43:08):
But when you add,

(00:43:09):
like,

(00:43:09):
this shit-staining aspect of it,

(00:43:12):
like,

(00:43:13):
I revert back to my old thinking where it's like,

(00:43:15):
well,

(00:43:16):
it can't be all.

(00:43:16):
It can't be so many.

(00:43:17):
Like,

(00:43:18):
it can't be,

(00:43:18):
like,

(00:43:19):
90% of these marriages are,

(00:43:21):
like,

(00:43:21):
90% of these guys are just,

(00:43:22):
like,

(00:43:23):
fucking nightmares to deal with at home.

(00:43:25):
But so, like, but now I know they are.

(00:43:27):
But now I'm like, it can't be that that many are just, like, not showering or not.

(00:43:33):
Well, think, okay, think about it this way.

(00:43:35):
Like,

(00:43:35):
think about like a typical like single man's apartment or like a dorm or like a

(00:43:40):
men's public bathroom.

(00:43:42):
They're the most disgusting things you can imagine.

(00:43:46):
Yeah, I lived in a fraternity house.

(00:43:50):
Yeah, what was the level of cleanliness there?

(00:43:55):
Oh, it was bad.

(00:43:56):
Yeah.

(00:43:56):
It was real bad.

(00:43:57):
Like, how bad?

(00:43:59):
Define bad.

(00:43:59):
Hmm.

(00:44:06):
I don't know, 100,000 units of badness.

(00:44:12):
I don't know that the toilets were ever cleaned.

(00:44:14):
I also personally felt like they were shocking.

(00:44:17):
Oh, no, you know what?

(00:44:18):
I think I did find out.

(00:44:19):
Yeah, there was one guy who did clean the toilet.

(00:44:21):
Yeah, there was one guy.

(00:44:23):
There was one guy.

(00:44:24):
Yeah.

(00:44:25):
Well, why would anyone else do it?

(00:44:26):
If someone's doing it already, I mean... But no, it was bad.

(00:44:34):
I spent very little time in...

(00:44:36):
in that place.

(00:44:38):
Like I, you know, I, my philosophy in college was if I'm in my dorm, I'm not working.

(00:44:41):
So I stayed in the library, wherever, stayed out of there.

(00:44:46):
So, um, no, it was bad.

(00:44:49):
We're off track though.

(00:44:50):
What, what, what, what?

(00:44:52):
Well, I, I think that this, this filth thing is kind of like part of the patriarchal playbook.

(00:44:56):
Oh, this is what I was going to say.

(00:44:58):
So, but also what's surprising, I guess a little bit about it is like, if you,

(00:45:06):
Being filthy and repulsive is not part of this traditional toxic masculinity kind of thing.

(00:45:14):
You're supposed to look suave and put together and wear nice clothes and have a

(00:45:18):
commanding presence and be confident.

(00:45:20):
And you can't be confident if you're scratching your ass.

(00:45:24):
That's what I would expect.

(00:45:26):
So...

(00:45:29):
But,

(00:45:29):
you know,

(00:45:30):
obviously these guys are not living up to those standards because they're not

(00:45:33):
living up to any standards because they're just,

(00:45:35):
like,

(00:45:35):
have no self-respect,

(00:45:36):
I guess.

(00:45:38):
Yeah, but, I mean, the flip side is, like, look at someone like Andrew Tate.

(00:45:40):
Like, he looks like someone who smells bad.

(00:45:45):
Like, he looks like he has bad hygiene.

(00:45:47):
He looks like over-coloned, I think.

(00:45:49):
Well, I mean... I don't want to talk about that.

(00:45:51):
That guy needs to be irrelevant.

(00:45:55):
Um...

(00:45:56):
You know,

(00:45:56):
I think with some of these guys,

(00:45:57):
like you said,

(00:45:58):
there's like this testing to see what you can get away with.

(00:46:01):
For sure.

(00:46:02):
And, you know, there's like a laziness element of it.

(00:46:05):
And then when you see that you can get away with the bad hygiene,

(00:46:09):
I think it becomes a proxy for like all the other things you can get away with.

(00:46:13):
There is definitely like a, um, a, uh,

(00:46:21):
Look how disgusting I can make myself.

(00:46:24):
Sexism.

(00:46:26):
Really?

(00:46:26):
You've encountered it.

(00:46:27):
Say more about that.

(00:46:28):
I don't want to say any names.

(00:46:30):
Well, like...

(00:46:32):
I'm going to make myself repulsive to you.

(00:46:35):
And I'm going to do it to show you that I can do it.

(00:46:38):
Yeah.

(00:46:39):
And it's like a flex.

(00:46:41):
Yeah.

(00:46:42):
Guys who like know something about your work.

(00:46:46):
And so they want to make themselves seem like they're sexists.

(00:46:50):
Yeah.

(00:46:51):
Like they present as a sexist almost to like,

(00:46:53):
you know,

(00:46:54):
I don't know if it's a power play or if it's like misplaced humor.

(00:47:00):
Yeah.

(00:47:00):
We've like encountered men.

(00:47:03):
like acquaintances working world who like make a big show of how like sexist they

(00:47:07):
are once they learn about my work and i think that's like similar to like the

(00:47:13):
disgusting thing yeah like oh look how yeah yeah yeah that's what i mean yeah so

(00:47:19):
like you know because they don't want to be judged on their own terms so they're

(00:47:23):
just they just like accept my terms of like oh yes i am terrible there's also like

(00:47:27):
this strong contingent there's strong kind of belief in men of like

(00:47:32):
I should be accepted no matter what.

(00:47:34):
Yes.

(00:47:34):
And so as soon as you question, you know, hey, could you, you know, your breath stinks.

(00:47:40):
It's like, well, I'm going to show you.

(00:47:42):
You should love me no matter what.

(00:47:43):
You should love me no matter what.

(00:47:44):
Now I'm going to make it even stinkier.

(00:47:46):
You know, I think that that dynamic plays out a lot.

(00:47:49):
I don't know where men get this idea that they're entitled to this like unquestioned.

(00:47:55):
Well, because men are never taught that they have to earn love.

(00:47:57):
They're never taught that they have to earn relationships.

(00:48:00):
Like we,

(00:48:01):
our entire lives,

(00:48:02):
women are socialized to like believe that we are unworthy and to believe that it is

(00:48:07):
a gift for men to be willing to be with us and that our bodies are gross and

(00:48:12):
unworthy and that,

(00:48:14):
you know,

(00:48:14):
we're shameful for wanting anything.

(00:48:16):
You know, you're bad if you want a birthday present.

(00:48:19):
And men are just taught that like, yeah, if you want it, it should be yours.

(00:48:24):
Yeah.

(00:48:25):
And so,

(00:48:25):
of course,

(00:48:26):
she should have sex with you no matter what you do or how you look or how you

(00:48:31):
behave during sex or anything else.

(00:48:33):
I think men are taught more specifically...

(00:48:37):
they're taught like there's a pursuit you have to earn into the relationship but

(00:48:43):
once you're in the relationship that's done it's yours you're entitled to it you

(00:48:48):
know you she is your property she cannot look at other guys she cannot talk to

(00:48:53):
other guys and like so there's like a a charm right like you have to pursue the

(00:48:58):
girl like that's definitely like ingrained in it but it's like once you get her you

(00:49:03):
got her and that's the end

(00:49:05):
Yeah,

(00:49:05):
I think that's,

(00:49:06):
I mean,

(00:49:06):
that certainly explains the like,

(00:49:08):
well,

(00:49:08):
my wife left for no reason.

(00:49:10):
You know, she's boycotting sex for no reason sort of dynamic.

(00:49:14):
Like you, you got your appliance, you paid for it.

(00:49:17):
Right.

(00:49:18):
It's paid in full.

(00:49:19):
It's supposed to be yours now.

(00:49:21):
yeah well it's i mean it's it's a property thing right like it's it's like i i i

(00:49:29):
can tell her who she can look at and all of that is fine because like she is mine

(00:49:37):
and that's how that's how it that's how men are definitely like

(00:49:41):
raised to think about relationships and that's definitely like reflected and i mean

(00:49:46):
so many of like even songs like some of these lyrics of some of these songs you

(00:49:51):
know watching you what's this god yeah that sting song yeah super creepy stuff um

(00:49:59):
but that's what we hear right yeah yeah that's what's normalized

(00:50:06):
Yeah, it's ownership.

(00:50:07):
And yeah, you're right.

(00:50:09):
So, okay.

(00:50:10):
So ownership and women as objects just always goes back to this as explanations for

(00:50:16):
why men behave the way they do.

(00:50:18):
But I think a really important thing to keep in mind is that,

(00:50:23):
you know,

(00:50:24):
it's,

(00:50:24):
it's not just men behaving this way.

(00:50:26):
It's our society viewing the way men behave as like not that bad and normal.

(00:50:32):
And that too is rooted in the idea that women are possessions and

(00:50:36):
that too is rooted in the idea that women owe men something that men don't owe women.

(00:50:41):
And once you abandon those ideas,

(00:50:45):
kind of everything that's happening just becomes very clear,

(00:50:49):
I think.

(00:50:51):
So like,

(00:50:52):
I guess it seems like you have two kind of tracks and well,

(00:50:56):
multiple tracks and like what you're doing,

(00:50:58):
but like one is like,

(00:51:01):
getting women to realize this on the front end and then the other is like dealing

(00:51:06):
with it when they're already in it and i guess like what do you what do you what do

(00:51:19):
you do to what do you do what do you do what do you yeah what do

(00:51:26):
When... I mean, like... When women are in these... This is a real problem.

(00:51:33):
Yes, Jeff.

(00:51:36):
It's so apparent that the world needed you to put it in front of them.

(00:51:45):
Well, I mean, it's been a problem.

(00:51:47):
It's been a problem all before I was even breathing, let alone talking about it.

(00:51:53):
And...

(00:51:54):
You know,

(00:51:55):
I think that this is one of the challenges of my work is that when we're doing this

(00:52:02):
feminist advocacy kind of stuff,

(00:52:04):
particularly in like a social media world where you have to keep an audience,

(00:52:10):
people often want to quickly pivot to this like self-help kind of stuff.

(00:52:15):
And that's how you get into this like, buy my course, you know, buy my book.

(00:52:20):
Here are the five ways to finally get him to listen to you.

(00:52:24):
and i have explicitly and aggressively avoided doing that because for patriarchy to

(00:52:31):
end the people who created it have to stop buying into it and that's men and you

(00:52:38):
can't communicate your way into him thinking that you're a human who matters and so

(00:52:45):
you know this begins

(00:52:46):
before the relationship start,

(00:52:48):
I've said this a million times,

(00:52:49):
like we have to render these men fully unfuckable.

(00:52:53):
We have to become confident being single because the primary way that patriarchy

(00:52:58):
gets control of women,

(00:52:59):
especially now,

(00:53:00):
especially in this political climate where we're trying to prevent women from

(00:53:04):
getting divorced,

(00:53:04):
where we're trying to force women into pregnancies,

(00:53:06):
where we're trying to do all of these awful things is by romantic relationships

(00:53:12):
with men and especially romantic relationships with men

(00:53:16):
that then end in having children.

(00:53:18):
Because once you've got those children, he can use them to control you.

(00:53:23):
So, you know, there is no quick fix.

(00:53:27):
I do think that women who are in these relationships need to pivot hard away from,

(00:53:33):
am I overreacting?

(00:53:35):
Am I unreasonable?

(00:53:36):
What do I need to do differently?

(00:53:38):
Pivot away from analyzing every single thing he's doing.

(00:53:42):
I think it is really important to accept the kind of relationship that you are in

(00:53:46):
and say,

(00:53:46):
I am in a relationship with the patriarchy.

(00:53:48):
My oppressor is in my bed and he's going to use this playbook because they all use the playbook.

(00:53:54):
So how can I weaponize the playbook against him?

(00:53:58):
How can I stop allowing him to take up so much of my time?

(00:54:02):
How can I protect myself given that these are the confines I find myself in and the

(00:54:07):
The individual answer is going to vary from person to person.

(00:54:10):
Often the answer is stop going to couples therapy.

(00:54:13):
That's an hour a week you can get back.

(00:54:15):
You know, stop trying to convince him to change because he's not going to change.

(00:54:20):
Stop doing anything that makes his life better.

(00:54:22):
He doesn't need you to do his fucking laundry.

(00:54:25):
You know, that's where we talk about like quiet quitting.

(00:54:27):
Like what can you do to take back a little bit of your life from this person who's

(00:54:33):
trying to steal as much of it as he possibly can?

(00:54:36):
I think there's value too.

(00:54:37):
And like the laundry thing,

(00:54:39):
for example,

(00:54:39):
it's like the,

(00:54:41):
I don't know if it's,

(00:54:42):
I don't know anything about relationships,

(00:54:44):
but make,

(00:54:47):
make them make it explicit.

(00:54:51):
And like that,

(00:54:51):
that's like kind of a thing I have of like just dealing with people generally,

(00:54:55):
but make them make it explicit.

(00:54:57):
And how do you do that?

(00:54:58):
You just stop doing laundry.

(00:55:00):
And then what does he say?

(00:55:01):
You have to do my laundry.

(00:55:02):
Yeah.

(00:55:03):
because having you know that having this like expectation this unsaid unspoken

(00:55:10):
expectation you know that's one thing but like if he's gonna say no it's your job

(00:55:16):
to do my laundry like make him say that and and you know it makes it it puts it out

(00:55:22):
in the open yeah i agree you know the other thing is like patriarchy tears us down

(00:55:29):
um

(00:55:30):
And then it traumatizes us.

(00:55:31):
You know, almost all women have been traumatized by patriarchy in some way.

(00:55:35):
And then we enter these relationships with men who further terrorize us and tear us

(00:55:40):
down and weaponize trauma against us and all of that.

(00:55:43):
And then the message that patriarchy gives back to us is,

(00:55:48):
but that's the person from whom you're supposed to derive your sense of self.

(00:55:53):
That's the person from whom you're supposed to get love.

(00:55:55):
So what ends up happening is the very people who are harming us,

(00:56:02):
we women are constantly seeking love from them because it's the only way we've

(00:56:06):
learned to get validation.

(00:56:08):
So women are constantly trying to get their abusers to say, oh, you're right.

(00:56:14):
Oh, you really don't deserve the abuse.

(00:56:16):
Oh, you really are doing a lot with the kids.

(00:56:18):
They're constantly seeking validation from men because

(00:56:23):
One, they're not getting it anywhere else.

(00:56:24):
Two, their self-esteem has been decimated.

(00:56:26):
And three, they have been indoctrinated to believe that they need these men to validate them.

(00:56:32):
You know, your partner, if he's this kind of man, is never going to offer that validation.

(00:56:37):
And all of the time that you spend seeking it is time that you feel worse and time

(00:56:43):
that you waste.

(00:56:45):
So just accept that...

(00:56:47):
he's not going to give it to you because he lacks that ability.

(00:56:49):
Patriarchy has rotted his brain.

(00:56:52):
And this is like an insight that,

(00:56:53):
that I got from you years ago,

(00:56:55):
Jeff,

(00:56:55):
with relationships with people that like,

(00:56:59):
They're not going to give that thing to you that you keep seeking from them.

(00:57:03):
Right.

(00:57:03):
If they were going to give it to you, they already would have.

(00:57:05):
It's the won't, can't kind of thing.

(00:57:10):
Yeah.

(00:57:10):
Like I would,

(00:57:11):
you know,

(00:57:12):
I would have these problems with like friends or family members and I would agonize

(00:57:15):
with Jeff about like,

(00:57:16):
well,

(00:57:16):
why aren't they giving it to me?

(00:57:18):
Do you think it's that they can't do it?

(00:57:20):
Do you think it's that they don't think I deserve it?

(00:57:21):
Like why, why, why?

(00:57:23):
And he would just say like, it doesn't matter if it's won't or can't.

(00:57:27):
It's not going to.

(00:57:29):
Yeah, just, you can't, you know, you have to take what people offer you.

(00:57:36):
And, you know, that's all you can do.

(00:57:39):
Yeah.

(00:57:40):
And if what he's offered you is shit for 20 years, like, you're not going to get more of that.

(00:57:45):
So just try to pull back as much you can from him.

(00:57:48):
Like,

(00:57:49):
even if it's just little teeny tiny things,

(00:57:51):
whatever you can do to take back safely your dignity,

(00:57:55):
do that.

(00:57:56):
There's almost always something there.

(00:57:58):
And it seems like just,

(00:58:00):
I only know what things you've shared with me from things readers have,

(00:58:03):
have written,

(00:58:04):
but like,

(00:58:05):
it seems like that kind of unplugging and like giving up on caring itself is like

(00:58:13):
kind of cathartic and liberating.

(00:58:15):
Yeah.

(00:58:16):
Yeah.

(00:58:17):
Like women will just post the shitty texts that their husbands send to them in my group.

(00:58:22):
And I think that is really powerful because they're no longer invested in

(00:58:28):
getting this man to love them.

(00:58:30):
They're instead just mocking him among a group of women.

(00:58:33):
And there's a lot of power in laughing at men.

(00:58:36):
I have a number of readers who have started just recording their husbands every

(00:58:40):
time they act shitty so that their husbands know that they're being mocked and also

(00:58:44):
the husbands behave better when the camera comes out.

(00:58:48):
Yeah, isn't that funny?

(00:58:50):
It's like they actually can do it.

(00:58:52):
Yeah.

(00:58:54):
People losing their shit and as soon as there's an audience, they snap out of it.

(00:58:58):
Yeah.

(00:58:59):
And I think that's weird how they can just snap out of it.

(00:59:01):
Yeah.

(00:59:02):
It almost suggests that, you know, it's deliberate.

(00:59:05):
It's not that they're neurodivergent or losing control or they know.

(00:59:09):
Yeah.

(00:59:10):
Yeah.

(00:59:10):
They know what they're doing.

(00:59:12):
If he can snap out of it when there's a police officer or a witness or a camera,

(00:59:17):
it is a conscious choice.

(00:59:19):
He knows what he's doing.

(00:59:24):
I have another question for you.

(00:59:26):
Yes.

(00:59:27):
I have to think about it this way.

(00:59:33):
Did you have a question and you lost it or you just felt like you needed to ask me

(00:59:36):
another question?

(00:59:39):
The latter.

(00:59:43):
I appreciate the honesty.

(00:59:49):
I did have a question at some point.

(00:59:52):
I'm sure you've had many questions.

(00:59:54):
I know there are many things in your brain.

(00:59:58):
Oh, I did want to clarify something.

(01:00:00):
When I said that the world needed you to point this out, I think that was inartful.

(01:00:08):
What I should have said and meant to say is that the world needs you to continue

(01:00:15):
putting all of this into words.

(01:00:18):
You've got people swarming around you who just...

(01:00:23):
think your work is amazing.

(01:00:25):
And it's, I just totally blown away by that.

(01:00:29):
But no, like,

(01:00:33):
there's something like the, the obviousness of something.

(01:00:36):
Cause I said something about like,

(01:00:37):
it's,

(01:00:37):
it's,

(01:00:38):
it's so apparent that it's,

(01:00:39):
it was so apparent that everyone needs you to,

(01:00:42):
or needed you to,

(01:00:43):
to point it out.

(01:00:44):
And like that stuff that's so apparent is like the stuff that just flies by.

(01:00:51):
Like, you know, for, for example, um,

(01:00:56):
You know,

(01:00:57):
the fact that our country per capita incarcerates more of its citizens than any

(01:01:02):
other country.

(01:01:04):
People are worried about the police state, right?

(01:01:06):
With a new administration.

(01:01:08):
Yeah, we have our concerns too.

(01:01:11):
But it's like people, we've been living in a police state.

(01:01:14):
Yeah.

(01:01:16):
Yeah.

(01:01:16):
You know,

(01:01:17):
these things that are just normalized,

(01:01:22):
everyday things that like we just accept as true and even acknowledge that they're true,

(01:01:26):
but they don't mean anything to us.

(01:01:28):
And those are often the most like, you know, invidious.

(01:01:36):
think that's a good word the word i want i don't know if it is but like those are

(01:01:39):
often the most like pernicious and like dangerous things and so you know obviously

(01:01:46):
you putting all of this like women just read your stuff and they identify with it

(01:01:51):
immediately which is like i mean if i were a man who uh

(01:01:58):
you know, was worried about my relationship or something like that.

(01:02:03):
Um,

(01:02:04):
uh,

(01:02:05):
that would be a wake up call for me where like,

(01:02:07):
whoa,

(01:02:07):
like,

(01:02:08):
like women are like,

(01:02:09):
yeah,

(01:02:10):
she's saying what's true.

(01:02:11):
Um, I don't know.

(01:02:13):
I don't know at what point there's going to be a wake up call.

(01:02:17):
Uh, I think it's happening.

(01:02:19):
I think,

(01:02:20):
you know,

(01:02:21):
I think what really has to happen is that women have to get comfortable being

(01:02:24):
single and say just like no more.

(01:02:28):
Um,

(01:02:29):
That's so hard for women, though.

(01:02:30):
It's so hard.

(01:02:31):
It's so hard because we're socialized not to do it.

(01:02:33):
And it's so hard because we want kids.

(01:02:35):
And it's so hard for men.

(01:02:36):
I mean, it's so hard for anyone to be single because like we're all taught.

(01:02:40):
Yeah.

(01:02:41):
Like you have to have a spouse to be worthwhile.

(01:02:44):
Well,

(01:02:45):
and that initial like rush of someone liking you,

(01:02:49):
I think sometimes even especially if they're also rejecting you is intoxicating.

(01:02:54):
And so you have to

(01:02:56):
Be really mindful of how those dynamics rope you in if you're going to resist them.

(01:03:01):
Yeah, they need to replace it with something else.

(01:03:07):
Like what?

(01:03:10):
Mushrooms.

(01:03:14):
Hobbies.

(01:03:17):
You know, the comfort of knowing that you are safe...

(01:03:24):
perhaps being more valuable than that initial male validation.

(01:03:28):
Do women feel safe when they're alone though?

(01:03:30):
Because that's kind of a scary thing too, isn't it?

(01:03:34):
I think that a lot of women feel less safe with a man in their life.

(01:03:39):
A myth that I see going around right now a lot in feminist circles is that

(01:03:46):
well,

(01:03:46):
at least if you're married,

(01:03:47):
you have some protection against this Trump-Musk administration.

(01:03:52):
And there's no evidence of that.

(01:03:55):
That's just a completely offhand, off-the-wall thing that people say.

(01:04:00):
Right.

(01:04:02):
You know, being married has not provided me with any protection from men at all.

(01:04:08):
I still get harassed every time I leave the house.

(01:04:12):
I solve all kinds of problems with men.

(01:04:14):
And I'm someone who's really like minimized my interactions with men.

(01:04:18):
So being married has not provided me with any protection.

(01:04:22):
And if I were not married to Jeff and were married to like a typical patriarchal man,

(01:04:28):
being married would mean that I was never safe in my house,

(01:04:32):
that I was living with the patriarchy and,

(01:04:34):
you know,

(01:04:35):
living with someone who was oppressing me and harming my children and all of that.

(01:04:39):
Single women are objectively safer.

(01:04:42):
You know, men don't,

(01:04:44):
like say oh well she's single so i'm gonna harass her i'm that's just not how it

(01:04:49):
works they see women they say harass um yeah that's all fair so i think it's a it

(01:04:56):
feels less safe it feels less safe and i think that women need to sit with like why

(01:05:02):
is that and there are lots of ways to not be alone that don't involve

(01:05:07):
men you know there are you know you could platonically marry your best friend you

(01:05:14):
could who could also be a man by the way because there is those yeah the lavender

(01:05:18):
relationships yeah um you could you could draw up a contract with your four closest

(01:05:24):
friends buy a property together and you know have agreements about how you're going

(01:05:28):
to do things i think that one thing that marriage does give us is marriage gives us

(01:05:33):
a set of agreements about how we're going to

(01:05:35):
behave you know we all have a general understanding of what marriage is and we can

(01:05:40):
have those kinds of explicit agreements with other people um isn't the problem with

(01:05:44):
marriage that we don't have any agreements about how we're going to behave well i

(01:05:48):
that's yeah so most marriages do not have agreements about how you're going to

(01:05:52):
behave that are explicit so they default to the patriarchal agreements of you know

(01:05:58):
the woman's going to do all the work the man's going to have all the fun the woman

(01:06:01):
is going to exist as an object for the man to use and

(01:06:04):
that sort of thing.

(01:06:05):
You know,

(01:06:06):
relationships are much better when you make your agreements explicit and marriage

(01:06:11):
only feels safer because we have a cultural understanding of what it means.

(01:06:17):
You know,

(01:06:17):
we don't have a cultural understanding that like your three best friends are the

(01:06:21):
people that you're going to take everywhere with you or that they're going to be

(01:06:24):
the people you vacation with or the people you raise children with or the people

(01:06:27):
who are with you when you are dying.

(01:06:29):
But they can be like you can do that.

(01:06:33):
And I've especially seen it

(01:06:35):
With the older women I know,

(01:06:37):
like my mom had this drum group and,

(01:06:41):
you know,

(01:06:42):
most of them have outlived or divorced their husbands.

(01:06:46):
And so they're single women now and they are not alone.

(01:06:51):
Their lives are rich.

(01:06:53):
They're too social for my taste.

(01:06:55):
I would find it overwhelming.

(01:06:57):
Um, they're always together.

(01:06:59):
They support each other through everything.

(01:07:01):
They travel together and, and you can do that.

(01:07:05):
And I think that if you look around,

(01:07:06):
you'll see that that's something that a lot of older women are already doing.

(01:07:10):
Um,

(01:07:11):
you know,

(01:07:11):
they tend to have like really good friendships because after you've lived a life

(01:07:15):
with men,

(01:07:15):
you start to see that like,

(01:07:16):
they're not really the path to not being alone.

(01:07:21):
So things that feel scary are not necessarily dangerous.

(01:07:25):
And I think that women need to sit with, like, why does being single feel scary?

(01:07:31):
It's not because it objectively is more dangerous.

(01:07:35):
Should we do some patriarchal playbook examples?

(01:07:39):
Well, do you have some?

(01:07:41):
I don't know.

(01:07:41):
Say something to me.

(01:07:43):
Oh, boy.

(01:07:46):
Let's see if I can do it.

(01:07:48):
Okay.

(01:07:48):
I'll make up some common concerns.

(01:07:53):
You didn't do a good job cleaning the kitchen tonight.

(01:07:56):
Do you have any idea how stressed I am right now?

(01:08:02):
Do you have any idea how much work I have to do?

(01:08:05):
There we go.

(01:08:05):
You know, I have clients whose lives or livelihoods depend on what I... Yeah, right.

(01:08:15):
Ten minutes later.

(01:08:17):
Longer than it would have taken to just fix the fucking kitchen.

(01:08:20):
Yeah.

(01:08:21):
Okay.

(01:08:22):
What's another example?

(01:08:24):
I'll probably just say the same thing.

(01:08:27):
Do you want to make a list of questions for the kids' parent-teacher conference?

(01:08:33):
I don't know.

(01:08:33):
I'll just go in and see what they have to say.

(01:08:36):
It seems like they're doing fine to me.

(01:08:38):
I think that you yell at the kids too much.

(01:08:41):
Well, you don't discipline them for anything.

(01:08:43):
Yeah.

(01:08:44):
You let them get away with everything, right?

(01:08:47):
I think the kids are watching too much TV when they're with you.

(01:08:52):
Well, they were watching shows with you the other day.

(01:08:56):
I don't say anything.

(01:08:57):
You know, I don't police your parenting.

(01:08:58):
It's easy.

(01:08:59):
You just get defensive.

(01:09:00):
You just, like, basically say, you know, what is it?

(01:09:04):
The thing?

(01:09:05):
Deflect.

(01:09:05):
Darvo.

(01:09:06):
Darvo.

(01:09:07):
Yeah.

(01:09:07):
Yeah, that's it.

(01:09:08):
And,

(01:09:08):
you know,

(01:09:09):
like,

(01:09:09):
what's really interesting is,

(01:09:10):
like,

(01:09:11):
so we don't have,

(01:09:11):
like,

(01:09:12):
video recordings of this.

(01:09:14):
And,

(01:09:14):
like,

(01:09:15):
I am making up concerns that aren't mine just because they're,

(01:09:19):
like,

(01:09:19):
the common things that I see.

(01:09:21):
And Jeff is, like, following a script that I know is not his.

(01:09:25):
And I am finding myself, like, having, like, a, like, withdraw reaction.

(01:09:29):
Like, it feels intimidating to me to, like, even play through it because, like, men are scary.

(01:09:37):
All right.

(01:09:38):
Well, let's try and do it the way we would do it.

(01:09:39):
All right.

(01:09:41):
Say something to me and I'll do a real reaction.

(01:09:44):
Um, just say the same thing.

(01:09:47):
Oh, okay.

(01:09:48):
Uh,

(01:09:50):
well,

(01:09:51):
so can you get up with the kids earlier in the day or can you start getting up with

(01:09:57):
the kids in the morning?

(01:09:58):
Jeff already gets up.

(01:10:00):
I do get up with the kids in the morning.

(01:10:02):
I pride myself on getting, no matter how sick I feel, you know, I would say a few times a year.

(01:10:07):
Um,

(01:10:08):
don't do it no like well like how about the kids are watching too much tv yeah so

(01:10:13):
the kids are the kids are watching too much tv on the weekends when you have them

(01:10:17):
yeah you're right i've been exhausted uh yeah i agree yeah and that's generally

(01:10:22):
like how it goes and you know the nice thing about having a co-parent who shares

(01:10:29):
your values is you have someone who can like

(01:10:32):
Check your impulses.

(01:10:33):
Right.

(01:10:34):
And you have someone who's like feedback you can trust.

(01:10:36):
Like,

(01:10:36):
I know that if Jeff tells me that I'm being too short with the kids,

(01:10:40):
he's not saying that to hurt me.

(01:10:41):
Right.

(01:10:41):
He's not saying that to win an argument.

(01:10:44):
He's saying that because he just thinks I'm being too short with the kids.

(01:10:47):
And usually the follow-up question is going to be like, are you okay?

(01:10:50):
or like what do you need to like not have that yeah or like why don't you like get

(01:10:55):
out of here yeah and you know go go go downstairs or something and i'll i'll handle

(01:11:01):
them because like usually it's because of you know the kids have been you know

(01:11:06):
terrorists just doing the thing they do you don't have to fight for like 30 hours

(01:11:10):
to get to the root cause of something you know usually when someone's doing

(01:11:13):
something you know why so this is like way off track but you know like

(01:11:18):
you can solve problems in five minutes and you can commit to behavior change

(01:11:22):
immediately you don't have to fight for 20 hours about everything you want your

(01:11:26):
partner to change and if that is the dynamic in your marriage or if it's a dynamic

(01:11:31):
of like disappearing things or he stonewalls for three days and then you plead with

(01:11:36):
him and you know whatever he's just weaponizing like the patriarchy stuff um

(01:11:43):
But also,

(01:11:44):
I hesitate to try to give any tips for dealing with men,

(01:11:52):
but what I said before about make it explicit,

(01:11:57):
you need to be as explicit and targeted as possible so that the reaction

(01:12:05):
you know the reaction you get is can be seen for what it is and so like not you're

(01:12:11):
not teaching the kids enough or not that like you're letting the kids I think

(01:12:16):
you're watching letting the kids watch too much TV yeah you know how much TV do you

(01:12:20):
think they should be watching

(01:12:22):
Like, because then when you get the defensive reaction, you can just be like, whoa.

(01:12:28):
Yeah.

(01:12:28):
Whoa.

(01:12:29):
You don't want to talk about how much TV our kids are watching.

(01:12:31):
Like,

(01:12:32):
like pick very targeted things because like,

(01:12:35):
it just makes the overreactions all the more apparent and apparent to you.

(01:12:40):
And it makes like deflection even more difficult because what I would think the

(01:12:46):
best move for Zahn,

(01:12:47):
if she says,

(01:12:48):
you're letting the kids watch too much TV.

(01:12:49):
Well, what about you?

(01:12:52):
would be like, oh, well, do you think we're both letting them watch too much TV?

(01:12:55):
Yeah.

(01:12:56):
You know, like, always just make them say the thing that they're actually thinking.

(01:13:01):
But not that you can.

(01:13:03):
And,

(01:13:03):
like,

(01:13:03):
this doesn't apply to,

(01:13:04):
like,

(01:13:05):
you know,

(01:13:05):
someone who's just going to start,

(01:13:08):
you know,

(01:13:08):
escalating and abusing.

(01:13:09):
But, like, it's... A lot of people...

(01:13:13):
are just really bad at speaking directly and speaking simply.

(01:13:18):
And the reason he's suggesting this is not,

(01:13:20):
this is not like communicate your partner into better behavior.

(01:13:24):
It's once you see what he really thinks,

(01:13:29):
it's easier for you to disengage from your emotional attachment to what he says.

(01:13:34):
Once you see that what he really thinks is,

(01:13:37):
well,

(01:13:37):
I'm allowed to put them on the TV because I shouldn't really have to be parenting

(01:13:41):
because I'm the man.

(01:13:43):
then it becomes a lot easier to just be like, I don't really give a shit what this dude thinks.

(01:13:49):
Sure.

(01:13:49):
Well, and also just like, I mean, communicating directly is just good advice for life.

(01:13:55):
You know, speaking simply.

(01:13:57):
Well, and women are taught to communicate indirectly and to not assert their needs.

(01:14:02):
And,

(01:14:03):
you know,

(01:14:03):
the more you assert your needs and the more you communicate directly,

(01:14:05):
the more you just have evidence that like,

(01:14:07):
he's not going to meet those needs because he doesn't think he has to.

(01:14:10):
Right, yeah, this is not like a fix, you know, like the advice column that you critiqued.

(01:14:19):
This is not like that, where you just need to tell them your needs.

(01:14:23):
It's just like, you know, if they're going to play games, then you need to minimize...

(01:14:33):
and this is what I would do with like a boss or anyone,

(01:14:36):
or,

(01:14:36):
or like if a judge is getting on me about something,

(01:14:39):
you know,

(01:14:40):
choose your words carefully,

(01:14:41):
minimize what you say.

(01:14:43):
Uh,

(01:14:43):
but make sure each,

(01:14:45):
each thing you say is,

(01:14:46):
is,

(01:14:46):
is,

(01:14:47):
you know,

(01:14:47):
short declarative to the point and,

(01:14:50):
and then,

(01:14:51):
and then remain calm.

(01:14:53):
Yeah.

(01:14:53):
Don't give them the reward.

(01:14:54):
Cause what a lot of these guys want is they want the big emotional reaction.

(01:14:58):
They want to gaslight you into freaking out.

(01:15:01):
And then they want to make you feel bad so that they can withdraw and you,

(01:15:05):
because you've been socialized to pursue,

(01:15:08):
go beg him back.

(01:15:09):
And then the issue that you have raised disappears.

(01:15:14):
And so you, you can't give them the reward of that emotional reaction.

(01:15:19):
Yeah.

(01:15:19):
Cause that, that I agree.

(01:15:21):
Um, I mean that that's, I think that's a scary thing.

(01:15:25):
Like if a, if a man does something wrong and the reaction is like, yeah, yeah.

(01:15:30):
okay he'll be like um what uh oh boy yeah should i be scared yeah like is she gonna

(01:15:37):
poison me anyway i think we've hit our yeah i think that's it so um you can find a

(01:15:46):
lot more information on the liberating motherhood website i really recommend

(01:15:50):
checking it out it's liberatingmotherhood.org there's a form where you can submit

(01:15:56):
feminist advice friday questions you can submit

(01:16:00):
podcast vignettes.

(01:16:01):
There's just like a ton of information up there.

(01:16:04):
And I haven't really been pushing the website, but it's like a really useful one-stop shop.

(01:16:10):
Of course, if you're listening to this, youknowson.substack.com.

(01:16:14):
Our next episode is going to... Do you want to tell them that you're working on a book?

(01:16:19):
I am working on a book.

(01:16:21):
It's about postpartum depression.

(01:16:23):
And I am probably going to need people to share stories at some point.

(01:16:28):
So if you...

(01:16:30):
If you submit a podcast vignette,

(01:16:33):
and I think it's useful for the book,

(01:16:35):
I may follow up with you.

(01:16:36):
So please, if you're willing to do that, include your email address.

(01:16:42):
Yeah, there's a book.

(01:16:44):
It's coming slowly, but it's coming.

(01:16:49):
Our next episode is going to be with Mary Catherine Starr.

(01:16:52):
Your next episode.

(01:16:54):
I'm just a guest.

(01:16:55):
That's true.

(01:16:56):
That's true.

(01:16:58):
My next episode, Jeff will not be there, is with Mary Catherine Starr.

(01:17:03):
She writes Mom Life Comics.

(01:17:04):
She also has a book coming out, except that her book is coming out in less than two weeks.

(01:17:08):
So we're going to be talking about her book,

(01:17:11):
about the lies we're all sold about motherhood,

(01:17:15):
about how patriarchy affects motherhood and a whole bunch of other stuff.

(01:17:19):
So that will be out in a week.

(01:17:21):
I highly recommend listening.

(01:17:23):
And if you can...

(01:17:25):
I really hope that you will leave positive reviews of this podcast.

(01:17:29):
It really, really helps with visibility, as does sharing, commenting, engaging on social media.

(01:17:35):
Just kind of the more you post about this podcast, the more visible it becomes.

(01:17:40):
It sucks that I have to ask for that, but that's how social media works.

(01:17:44):
So make it more visible, and there will be more episodes.

(01:17:48):
And there will be more women who think like you.

(01:17:50):
Yeah, more women who think like you.

(01:17:53):
And that's really what we want is to get the message out so we can build a better

(01:17:57):
world so that our generation is the last generation to deal with this absolute

(01:18:01):
fucking bullshit.

(01:18:02):
And to have men think, oh shit.

(01:18:06):
Yeah.

(01:18:07):
To have men living in fear.

(01:18:09):
It's really men who we want to be fearful.

(01:18:13):
Yeah.

(01:18:13):
Okay.

(01:18:14):
So...

(01:18:14):
I had, I was fighting with some men on the internet before we started this episode.

(01:18:18):
And I've just remembered some of those fights.

(01:18:20):
We really just want men to live in the kind of fear that they forced us to live in

(01:18:24):
for hundreds,

(01:18:25):
if not thousands of years.

(01:18:27):
And one of the ways to achieve that is by making more people listen to my podcast.

(01:18:34):
All right, that's it.

(01:18:35):
I'll talk to you guys soon.