(00:00:00): Hi,

(00:00:01): I'm Zahn Valines,

(00:00:03): and this is the Liberating Motherhood Podcast,

(00:00:05): and this is our monthly bonus episode for paid subscribers.

(00:00:09): If you're new to our bonus episodes,

(00:00:11): they are poorly thought out,

(00:00:14): poorly planned,

(00:00:15): unoutlined episodes that Jeff and I come up with,

(00:00:19): and then you can choose to pay to listen to them.

(00:00:23): I'm here today with Jeff.

(00:00:24): No, they're free for people who have paid.

(00:00:26): Yeah.

(00:00:27): That's, yeah, they're free for people who have paid.

(00:00:30): That's what makes them a bonus.

(00:00:32): And free.

(00:00:33): So that's Jeff.

(00:00:34): He's here too.

(00:00:35): Hi, I'm Jeff.

(00:00:36): I'm Zahn's husband.

(00:00:38): So Jeff and I have not been together all day because we've been working,

(00:00:42): so this is kind of like our first interaction of the day.

(00:00:45): True.

(00:00:46): So I'm real fucking pissed off.

(00:00:49): Oh.

(00:00:49): I'm really mad at men today, so that's what we're coming into this in.

(00:00:53): Okay.

(00:00:54): So I just...

(00:00:56): I don't understand what the fuck is wrong with your people.

(00:00:59): They're not my people.

(00:01:01): So this month... I'm a man.

(00:01:06): This month we're talking about the Patriarchal Playbook.

(00:01:09): I use this term to refer to the collection of excuses,

(00:01:12): scripts,

(00:01:13): nonsense,

(00:01:13): bullshit,

(00:01:14): and other actions.

(00:01:16): that men use to guard their patriarchal privilege.

(00:01:19): These are things that men do unthinkingly.

(00:01:23): But once you start to observe the trend,

(00:01:25): it really does start to seem like they're given a secret book that they weaponize

(00:01:30): against us.

(00:01:30): So Jeff, is there?

(00:01:31): Do you get a secret book?

(00:01:34): uh the secret book is called society and all of the tv shows we watched growing up

(00:01:43): and all of the yeah yeah no it's it's just called uh what is it what is the word

(00:01:49): for the culture the um enculturation patriarchy there's a better one i can't think

(00:01:54): of it but socialization all of those but there's still a better one i don't know

(00:01:58): Anyway, yeah, it's out there.

(00:02:00): It's not explicit, but it is also very explicit.

(00:02:05): Yeah, so I think the thing that's most interesting is that...

(00:02:09): Patriarchy separates women from other women.

(00:02:12): So women in adulthood often don't really have a good idea of what other women's lives are like.

(00:02:18): And then they start reading me and the feedback that they often give me is they

(00:02:23): thought that it was just them.

(00:02:24): They thought that their husband was unique and special and meant well,

(00:02:28): but he's actually just exactly like all the other husbands because patriarchy

(00:02:32): really offers like one standard issue,

(00:02:34): heterosexual relationship.

(00:02:37): And so these women are shocked to learn that other men are using the exact same

(00:02:41): lines and excuses their partners do,

(00:02:43): even in vastly different circumstances.

(00:02:45): Even if those lines and excuses are not...

(00:02:47): relevant to them um i've covered this extensively in my weapons men's use series

(00:02:53): and i recently did a piece on what abusive men do when their partners leave and

(00:02:59): it's it's formulaic and people have written me and been like are you are you in my

(00:03:03): house are you stalking my husband like how do you know this and it's because the

(00:03:08): men who have endorsed this ideology are like

(00:03:11): all the same well there's a limited number of ways that they can react you know

(00:03:16): there's only so many ways a person can react to being left and you know most of

(00:03:21): them especially so many abusive ways that someone's going to react to it yeah so i

(00:03:26): don't know that it's surprising you know what i find so troubling is like i can see

(00:03:39): Like, in isolation, throughout the course of our relationship, I know that I have used lines.

(00:03:49): Just lines.

(00:03:50): Just things.

(00:03:50): I've seen echoes of things.

(00:03:52): Like, in my past.

(00:03:55): Um...

(00:03:57): And I always, I can see you getting uncomfortable.

(00:04:00): Like, no, because I'm always really ignorant of the degree of how terrible things are.

(00:04:09): And so I think anytime,

(00:04:11): you know,

(00:04:11): I say something like that,

(00:04:12): someone starts to think that,

(00:04:13): I don't know what you start to think when I say something like that,

(00:04:15): but what I'm driving at is...

(00:04:18): It's not like I wasn't raised in the same society as these guys.

(00:04:21): It's not like I wasn't in the same fraternities as these guys or didn't train with

(00:04:25): these guys or didn't play sports with these guys.

(00:04:27): Whatever.

(00:04:29): So I know them.

(00:04:30): The troubling thing is I left that shit behind long ago.

(00:04:35): And when I say that shit, I mean small elements of this stuff.

(00:04:41): So the reason I just want to jump in here.

(00:04:43): The reason I get uncomfortable is

(00:04:46): There's this weird dynamic where like in order to be a not sexist man,

(00:04:51): you have to like own the way that patriarchy has socialized you and own like the

(00:04:56): way it benefits you.

(00:04:58): But in the context of this podcast and in the context of our readership or my readership,

(00:05:04): I guess.

(00:05:05): Yes, yours.

(00:05:06): Yeah, mine.

(00:05:07): Jeff is not writing.

(00:05:07): I'm just here to help.

(00:05:08): Yeah.

(00:05:10): See, this is... Anyway.

(00:05:12): We have a lot of women who are looking for guidance in terms of essentially what to

(00:05:17): accept from men.

(00:05:19): And so they hear you say, well, like, I used to do that or I did do some of that.

(00:05:24): And they think, oh, he must have called her a cunt.

(00:05:27): And, you know, he can learn not to do that.

(00:05:29): And so my guy, this guy that I'm dating, can learn not to do that, too.

(00:05:33): And so, like...

(00:05:34): I just always feel the need to clarify that when Jeff says,

(00:05:37): like,

(00:05:38): he has done some of this stuff,

(00:05:39): he's not doing any of the kinds of things you think and never did.

(00:05:45): Yeah, so let's put a finer point on it then.

(00:05:48): I'm talking about things like...

(00:05:51): uh deflecting in a fight yeah blaming the other person you know they have a problem

(00:05:55): with you you're gonna have a problem with them you amplify your problem big enough

(00:05:59): you you know then they wind up apologizing when you were originally in the wrong

(00:06:03): i'm talking about stuff like that and that can happen in any relationship you know

(00:06:08): and but i'm talking about things like that i'm talking about things like

(00:06:14): i don't know just being condescending about something yeah um thinking that i know

(00:06:19): more than i do things like this i'm not talking about name calling i'm not talking

(00:06:24): about like getting physical or getting intentionally like threatening um at all

(00:06:30): like that that sort of stuff is that's just weak stuff i don't i don't get why i

(00:06:35): don't get why men do that but what i'm driving at is like

(00:06:40): You know, it's not supposed to get worse as you get older.

(00:06:43): It's supposed to get better.

(00:06:44): You're supposed to get wiser.

(00:06:46): You're supposed to understand your partner better as you go along.

(00:06:50): And you're supposed to leave the stuff behind so that when she brings a problem to you,

(00:06:53): you don't get defensive about it because you have some confidence and you don't

(00:06:58): feel so criticized.

(00:06:59): And, you know...

(00:07:01): because you're a fucking man who's a grownup and who can handle things.

(00:07:05): Okay,

(00:07:05): so that's like,

(00:07:06): I think that's actually like an interesting point and just kind of like a side

(00:07:09): tangent for women dating men.

(00:07:13): The normal development of like the human person is that ideally you're getting wiser with age.

(00:07:20): I am a much better partner than I was 15 years ago or even five years ago and a

(00:07:27): much stabler,

(00:07:28): better person because like I've accumulated

(00:07:31): many many many more skills and that should be the normal like course of development

(00:07:38): that like you get better at your relationship as you get older your partner gets

(00:07:42): better at relating as they get older and that's certainly been the reality for jeff

(00:07:47): and me uh for most men it's that they start out bad and they get worse because

(00:07:52): patriarchy enables them

(00:07:55): Yeah,

(00:07:56): but what I don't understand about these guys is like,

(00:08:00): okay,

(00:08:00): do you like fighting with your spouse?

(00:08:03): I know, right?

(00:08:05): Fighting makes everyone feel like shit.

(00:08:07): So why aren't you getting better at avoiding fights?

(00:08:13): Is it because... Oh, I think they are getting better at it.

(00:08:16): They're getting better at making it so that their partners can't bring up problems.

(00:08:21): And all of the problems...

(00:08:23): are generally with the man because the problems with the woman,

(00:08:26): they exist,

(00:08:27): they're just so much smaller than the problems with the man that they never get broached.

(00:08:31): Yeah, no, they're getting better at it by shutting it down.

(00:08:34): Yeah.

(00:08:34): And they're shutting it down because they're just angry and they're going to be

(00:08:37): intimidating and they're going to make it hell to pay.

(00:08:39): Mm-hmm.

(00:08:40): maybe there'd be hell to pay if if if she brings something up and so i think

(00:08:45): there's also some pleasure in these fights for these guys i'm sure there's like a

(00:08:48): substantial contingent of them who get off on being you know feared like you know

(00:08:54): you're going to your shitty job your boss is talking shit to you you know you're

(00:08:58): you're you're weak here you're you know whatever um you don't make enough money

(00:09:03): So you feel like shit and then you go home and you're going to be the tough guy.

(00:09:09): Now you're the one who's in control.

(00:09:11): And I think there's probably a lot about that.

(00:09:13): I mean, that's just, that's just, you know, that's just weak bullshit.

(00:09:19): Like I don't, I don't get it.

(00:09:22): So I think,

(00:09:24): um,

(00:09:24): like what's at the core of this like patriarchal playbook thing is you and I often

(00:09:28): talk about like the woman appliance and,

(00:09:30): And, you know, every man like gets a woman appliance.

(00:09:32): And if your woman appliance malfunctions,

(00:09:34): you just like replace her with a different one or you like abuse her into being different.

(00:09:38): And I truly do think that this is the model of how most men approach their marriages.

(00:09:43): And so if you never learn how to relate meaningfully to a woman as anything other

(00:09:47): than a useful appliance,

(00:09:49): there's little to no emotional intimacy.

(00:09:52): There's not expanding knowledge of each other.

(00:09:55): There's not an acknowledgement of her, like, unique human dignity.

(00:09:59): And so there's no ability to see your partner as an individual whose needs matter.

(00:10:03): And no ability to, like, really see her as an individual at all.

(00:10:07): So men just experiment with what works.

(00:10:09): Kind of like how we do when our fucking dishwasher just won't stop slamming open no

(00:10:15): matter how many times.

(00:10:16): What do we do?

(00:10:17): We fix it.

(00:10:18): We stop fixing it.

(00:10:19): Well, we kept... I don't think that one breaks down.

(00:10:21): I don't think...

(00:10:22): That's true.

(00:10:24): But we did experiment with different dishwasher repair people for a while to see if

(00:10:27): any of them could fix it.

(00:10:29): I don't think this one works.

(00:10:30): No, it's true.

(00:10:34): It's okay.

(00:10:35): It's fair.

(00:10:36): It's fair.

(00:10:36): Yeah, we didn't put a lot of effort into fixing the dishwasher.

(00:10:39): But,

(00:10:40): you know,

(00:10:40): like if you don't really care about why someone is doing something,

(00:10:44): you just like keep pushing buttons until you see what works.

(00:10:49): And that's what these men are doing with their partners.

(00:10:52): They try this thing.

(00:10:54): That doesn't work.

(00:10:54): So they just pivot to the next thing.

(00:10:57): And before you know it, they've lobbed 10 things at the woman and she's overwhelmed.

(00:11:00): She's trying to respond to all of them.

(00:11:02): She's pretending that he's arguing in good faith,

(00:11:04): but he's just seeing which combination of buttons will work.

(00:11:07): Well, what about this question for a partner?

(00:11:11): It's like, what is the goal of this partnership?

(00:11:14): Is the goal that we support each other so that we each can accomplish more than we could alone?

(00:11:20): Or is the goal that I support you

(00:11:25): so that you can do what you want.

(00:11:27): And I get to do what I want,

(00:11:30): which the man assumes is just doing everything,

(00:11:35): cleaning,

(00:11:36): you know,

(00:11:36): dealing with the kids.

(00:11:38): And,

(00:11:39): you know,

(00:11:39): I think a lot of men,

(00:11:40): like,

(00:11:41): obviously,

(00:11:42): think that that is what the relationship should be.

(00:11:45): And a lot of women dream of having the relationship where it's like,

(00:11:48): oh,

(00:11:48): yeah,

(00:11:48): we support each other so that we can both accomplish more in life.

(00:11:51): And, you know, we build each other up.

(00:11:53): And,

(00:11:53): we'd be each other safe people and you know like that's what a partnership is

(00:11:56): that's that's why two business partners form a partnership right like so they can

(00:12:01): pool resources we're gonna now we can hire an assistant together and we can pay the

(00:12:05): rent and we can split the rent and then we'll split the profits and this will be

(00:12:08): great

(00:12:09): But that's not how most relationships go.

(00:12:13): And I think if you're in a relationship where that is not the goal,

(00:12:17): and the goal is just to extract work from you,

(00:12:21): then why would you be in that relationship?

(00:12:23): And I guess the answer is because you're scared.

(00:12:26): Yeah.

(00:12:27): So the thing that really makes this patriarchal playbook work, in my opinion, is, you know,

(00:12:35): Once you really fully believe that women are fully human and that their needs matter,

(00:12:41): it just becomes very obvious what these men are doing.

(00:12:45): That they're not cunning liars.

(00:12:47): They're just haphazardly grabbing at whatever can work and using their patriarchal

(00:12:54): power to intimidate women.

(00:12:57): But when you don't see women as fully people, it's harder to see.

(00:13:00): And most women have been socialized to not see themselves as...

(00:13:05): meaningfully human in the same way that men are.

(00:13:09): We learn that we are entitled for wanting things.

(00:13:12): The very act of wanting something is wrong.

(00:13:15): We learn that we have to give men a chance.

(00:13:17): We learn that we shouldn't be alone.

(00:13:20): You know, we learn that if someone is mad at us, it's always our fault.

(00:13:23): We learn that we can single-handedly fix men, fix relationships.

(00:13:28): We treat ourselves as like accommodations for broken men.

(00:13:31): And so...

(00:13:34): women are coming to these arguments in good faith and they're like trying to

(00:13:39): respond to the bullshit that these men are spewing at them but these men don't even

(00:13:43): mean what they're saying yeah that's it's crazy to hear you like say like what

(00:13:49): women are raised to think because i'll tell you what men are generally raised to

(00:13:54): think about relationships do it themselves

(00:13:57): The most important thing in your life is your hobbies and how good you are at them.

(00:14:01): And the most important thing in a relationship is sex.

(00:14:06): Yeah.

(00:14:07): And I think that's true.

(00:14:08): I think that's true that that's what men learn.

(00:14:11): It is true.

(00:14:12): I'm telling you.

(00:14:13): That's what we learn.

(00:14:14): And when I talk about hobbies,

(00:14:17): I mean,

(00:14:18): it's like that Fight Club speech of everyone's raised to believe they're going to

(00:14:22): be astronaut or superstar or whatever.

(00:14:24): Yeah.

(00:14:25): And they're not.

(00:14:25): And so,

(00:14:26): like,

(00:14:26): what do these men do when they realize that they're not going to fulfill their

(00:14:30): childhood dream of,

(00:14:32): you know,

(00:14:32): playing some professional sport they were never good at?

(00:14:35): They start an underground fight club.

(00:14:37): I mean, like, no, it's true.

(00:14:41): Yeah.

(00:14:42): And so, and they leave their wives at home with the kids.

(00:14:47): Well,

(00:14:47): there's a corollary to that with women that I see a lot that I think is really important,

(00:14:52): which is that women are taught

(00:14:55): that it's fine to ask for equality as long as men don't have to give anything up.

(00:15:01): And so what that reduces to is like, you can't actually ask for equality.

(00:15:05): Women believe that it is a tragedy for men to have to give anything up.

(00:15:12): If he's giving up his golf outing to come home and help you take care of the kids

(00:15:17): or to take the kids so that you can go do something that's important to you,

(00:15:20): that's asking too much.

(00:15:22): And, like, all of society will tell you that's asking too much.

(00:15:25): A core rule of patriarchy is that men should not have to give things up.

(00:15:30): Yeah, I mean... I guess that's real nice if you don't give a shit about your spouse.

(00:15:37): Yeah.

(00:15:37): Because,

(00:15:37): like,

(00:15:39): I...

(00:15:41): That's the only way that you could be okay with that,

(00:15:44): is if you just don't give a shit and you only care about yourself.

(00:15:48): Yeah, I mean, I would...

(00:15:50): Like a world where you can pursue every whim and dream you have, like, with no consequences.

(00:15:56): Oh, I could fill my time.

(00:15:59): I could never be home.

(00:16:01): I could have hobbies unending, you know, weekly schedule.

(00:16:06): Like...

(00:16:10): easily.

(00:16:11): Yeah.

(00:16:12): And what would that get me?

(00:16:15): Exactly.

(00:16:16): Because if I did that, you'd get pissed.

(00:16:19): Yeah.

(00:16:19): And so then what's my only option if I'm not going to give that up and you get pissed?

(00:16:22): Right.

(00:16:23): Control.

(00:16:24): Right.

(00:16:25): Fear.

(00:16:25): Yeah.

(00:16:25): Threats.

(00:16:26): Yeah.

(00:16:27): And so like the world that I prefer is the one where like you have a relationship

(00:16:31): with your children and don't die like with regrets and frankly die alone because

(00:16:35): like men wield this thing with women of like,

(00:16:38): oh,

(00:16:38): you're going to die alone with your cats.

(00:16:39): And

(00:16:41): Women don't die alone because women's children remain steadfastly loyal to them.

(00:16:47): They maintain emotional connections.

(00:16:49): They have friendships.

(00:16:50): It's men who die alone.

(00:16:53): Right.

(00:16:54): But also, like...

(00:16:55): I mean, I say all of that.

(00:16:57): I could fill out my time and all this stuff.

(00:16:58): But like, what's more important than being a parent?

(00:17:01): Right.

(00:17:01): What's more important than raising the next generation of humans?

(00:17:04): What's why isn't that a hobby?

(00:17:06): Because like that's I mean, it's obviously more than a hobby.

(00:17:10): But you know what I mean?

(00:17:10): Like I could go rock climbing or I could take my kids to the playground and teach

(00:17:15): them how to,

(00:17:16): you know,

(00:17:16): go down the big slide or something like that for the first time.

(00:17:20): And it's like, why is that stuff not ingrained in men?

(00:17:23): I think just because boys are taught to play and taught to do sports and taught to

(00:17:30): go off and do their own things and their moms stay home and do all of the work.

(00:17:34): And generally, probably didn't even complain much about it.

(00:17:39): My mother, obviously, let me know what was going on.

(00:17:42): But...

(00:17:45): relentlessly endlessly yeah and my dad wasn't near you know he was not these guys

(00:17:51): yeah that like everybody is is is all these stories he wasn't even that but my mom

(00:17:58): still let me know about it but still um you know that that's that's how men are

(00:18:04): raised and you know the question is like when do you stop acting like a boy uh

(00:18:09): who's entitled to things and entitled to

(00:18:13): pursue all of these ultimately meaningless things and when do you actually grow the

(00:18:16): fuck up and realize that there are more important things that people depend on you

(00:18:20): and that your kids are what matter and your relationship is what matters and like

(00:18:24): yeah you can have time you'd be surprised at how much you can get done in 20

(00:18:27): minutes a day with a hobby exercise or you know music or whatever like it's plenty

(00:18:32): of time just don't be a selfish asshole

(00:18:38): I mean, speak for yourself.

(00:18:39): My weightlifting isn't going so well.

(00:18:42): Oh, you just haven't found the thing that you like yet.

(00:18:46): It's because I fundamentally don't like exercise.

(00:18:52): That's another thing.

(00:18:58): I wish I could just say, like, don't exercise because, like, that would be great.

(00:19:03): And the only concern is, you know,

(00:19:07): What does that look like for us when we're 60?

(00:19:10): Jeff and I are both on like fitness kicks right now.

(00:19:12): Because we're getting older.

(00:19:13): Yeah.

(00:19:14): And we're like,

(00:19:14): oh shit,

(00:19:15): we got to get this together so that we're like,

(00:19:18): you know,

(00:19:19): these people we see in their 70s who are still kicking ass as opposed to these

(00:19:22): other people we see in their 70s who are having trouble getting around.

(00:19:25): It's like there's only one way to do that.

(00:19:27): So like the way the exercise is going right now is that,

(00:19:31): you know,

(00:19:31): Jeff comes upstairs after his...

(00:19:34): weightlifting time.

(00:19:35): And he's like, wow, I, I feel, I feel really great.

(00:19:38): And,

(00:19:38): you know,

(00:19:39): you just make progress if you just work really hard and it's just,

(00:19:42): you know,

(00:19:42): it's just so happy.

(00:19:43): And,

(00:19:43): you know,

(00:19:44): you just,

(00:19:44): you just have to keep trying and,

(00:19:45): you know,

(00:19:46): it's amazing what you can do with consistency.

(00:19:48): And I come upstairs and I say, every day that I do this, I feel a little bit worse.

(00:19:54): And that, that is where we are right now.

(00:19:56): So maybe check back in with us in six months.

(00:19:58): Maybe it will reverse, but I don't think it will.

(00:20:01): I don't know what to tell you, Zan.

(00:20:03): I think you just got to find something that's fun.

(00:20:08): All right.

(00:20:08): So, patriarchy playbook.

(00:20:11): I want to give a couple of examples because Jeff is like...

(00:20:16): I think that Jeff is very much divorced from what typical men are like because he

(00:20:21): chooses not to associate with them.

(00:20:24): Not true.

(00:20:24): I spent all day with two other guys.

(00:20:27): Yeah, but I mean, they're not...

(00:20:31): Jeff is not hanging out with bros.

(00:20:33): He's just not.

(00:20:34): No, that's true.

(00:20:36): So, all right.

(00:20:39): One of the weirdest ones that keeps coming up in my group and in comments with

(00:20:44): friends and all of this is what's the first thing a guy does when the woman says

(00:20:51): she's going to end the relationship?

(00:20:53): No matter how much time they've spent talking.

(00:20:55): Cries.

(00:20:57): Yes, there's crying.

(00:20:59): But then, then.

(00:21:01): He wants to talk.

(00:21:03): And,

(00:21:04): you know,

(00:21:04): the implicit message here is,

(00:21:06): okay,

(00:21:06): now I'm really ready to talk after all the talking you've done that I haven't

(00:21:09): listened to.

(00:21:10): But then he always does one better.

(00:21:12): And this is the weirdest part, because like, I would say like half of these men do it.

(00:21:16): They say, can we just go for a walk together?

(00:21:20): They want to go for a walk and they want to talk.

(00:21:23): I don't know why they want to go for a walk.

(00:21:24): I think there's this notion of like, you know, long romantic walk on the beach, walking.

(00:21:30): You know,

(00:21:31): it's kind of like occupational therapy where you're doing something else that

(00:21:34): enables you to share your true emotions where he's going to like,

(00:21:40): I don't know,

(00:21:40): what is he going to say on the walk?

(00:21:42): No witnesses on the walk also.

(00:21:44): It's not like going to Starbucks where if you start pounding the table,

(00:21:47): people are going to notice.

(00:21:48): Yeah.

(00:21:49): True.

(00:21:49): Yeah, I mean, I don't know what's happening on these walks.

(00:21:51): But it's just weird.

(00:21:52): They all just have this let's go for a walk thing where they're suddenly trying to

(00:21:56): be like light and I don't know.

(00:21:58): So another thing that we see is fake remorse.

(00:22:02): You know,

(00:22:03): we all pretty much eventually learn that we have to apologize when we do something

(00:22:07): wrong and we have to come up with some way of fixing it.

(00:22:10): But these men feel... Some of us.

(00:22:12): I mean... Well, that's the thing.

(00:22:14): They don't actually feel remorse.

(00:22:16): And they're not actually sorry.

(00:22:17): Right.

(00:22:18): And they don't feel like they owe their partners anything.

(00:22:22): So they have to, like, drum up some remorse to regain access to the appliance.

(00:22:27): But they don't actually feel remorseful.

(00:22:28): So it's fake remorse.

(00:22:30): And one of the things they do is, like, they'll recite a script.

(00:22:34): And then...

(00:22:35): they'll insist that, okay, it's all in the past.

(00:22:37): Now men have this notion that they are entitled to a clean slate continuously, which is weird.

(00:22:45): Cause like everything you do is immediately in the past.

(00:22:49): I mean, at a certain point, apologies can't just be verbal, right?

(00:22:54): Right.

(00:22:55): They have to be actual action sustained over a period of time.

(00:23:00): Um,

(00:23:02): And let's be real, most men aren't going to do that.

(00:23:04): Most people can't just change how they live.

(00:23:10): If it hasn't been a gradual process over the course of months or years even,

(00:23:17): it's not going to be an immediate process.

(00:23:21): It might be for a couple days, but it'll wane.

(00:23:24): Well,

(00:23:24): and that's the fundamental thing here is that men can change,

(00:23:29): men can do better,

(00:23:31): men can improve.

(00:23:32): Um,

(00:23:33): you know,

(00:23:33): to maintain otherwise would be to suggest that men don't have free will,

(00:23:36): which they obviously do,

(00:23:38): but men don't change.

(00:23:40): And the reason that they don't change is that if you're able to buy your free time,

(00:23:45): your leisure,

(00:23:46): your rest,

(00:23:47): your whatever with your partner suffering and be okay with that,

(00:23:51): then you don't actually care about your partner as a person in a meaningful way.

(00:23:58): And so when the chips are down and like that person is threatening to leave you,

(00:24:03): the odds are very,

(00:24:04): very good that these guys are just going to look for a new partner rather than

(00:24:08): change because they never actually cared about the partner.

(00:24:10): Like if your partner has behaved in this way,

(00:24:13): they just don't care about you in the ways that actually matter.

(00:24:18): And that is why change is so difficult.

(00:24:21): It is also why so many of these men propose fake solutions.

(00:24:26): So for example,

(00:24:28): Rather than saying,

(00:24:29): all right,

(00:24:29): starting tomorrow morning,

(00:24:32): I am going to get up with the kids every day when they wake up,

(00:24:36): no matter what,

(00:24:37): forever.

(00:24:38): He says, I'm going to make a list of therapists to call.

(00:24:42): And then maybe in three more weeks, I'll call them.

(00:24:45): And then maybe in three more weeks after that, you'll go to therapy where he can gaslight you.

(00:24:50): And for all of that time, he's been getting more free labor from you.

(00:24:54): And you've been feeling like he's doing something because,

(00:24:57): well,

(00:24:57): he's looking into therapy or he's going to therapy or whatever.

(00:25:00): So they're really big on these fake solutions where they'll say,

(00:25:02): oh,

(00:25:03): let's read the Fair Play book.

(00:25:05): I know you've been asking me to do it for six years.

(00:25:07): Let's read it now.

(00:25:08): And so then you'll fight your way through the book.

(00:25:10): It'll take 18 months.

(00:25:11): You'll spend endless hours fighting about each task card.

(00:25:16): it all of these fake solutions are like really about buying time and about the

(00:25:19): appearance of change instead of actual change like he can propose meaningful change

(00:25:24): and implement it right now maybe it does take some time to get to 50 50 make it

(00:25:29): maybe it does take some time to recover from years of verbal abuse or whatever but

(00:25:34): like he can start doing it he can propose a meaningful solution like right now this

(00:25:38): moment today

(00:25:40): Yeah, certainly.

(00:25:42): And the thing is, change can't depend on someone's mental state.

(00:25:49): It changes action.

(00:25:50): And so I'm going to call a therapist.

(00:25:52): It's like, okay, that's fine.

(00:25:53): That's your shit.

(00:25:54): You want to do that in free time?

(00:25:56): That's fine.

(00:25:56): What I need for you is to, for example, get up with the kids.

(00:25:59): Yeah.

(00:26:00): And getting up with the kids is not something that you can say,

(00:26:03): oh,

(00:26:03): well,

(00:26:03): I have ADD,

(00:26:04): so I'm not good at paying the bills or something like that.

(00:26:07): You can't really mental health your way out of something like getting up with the kids.

(00:26:12): You know,

(00:26:12): if there's some extenuating circumstance,

(00:26:14): like he's a police officer who works night shift.

(00:26:17): It's like, OK, then we'll choose a different example.

(00:26:18): OK, but but, you know, there are.

(00:26:22): absolutely concrete things that someone can do to show that they're actually

(00:26:26): committed to making these changes.

(00:26:28): And it doesn't have to all be at once because that's just like not how anyone

(00:26:33): changes anything about their life.

(00:26:35): Like you can't just wake up and be completely different,

(00:26:38): but you can absolutely immediately start doing something differently.

(00:26:43): Well,

(00:26:43): you know,

(00:26:44): not just thinking through this while you were talking,

(00:26:47): I was thinking about this.

(00:26:49): And it's just dawned on me that I think maybe one of the signs of like a healthy

(00:26:52): relationship is that when the other person voices concerns,

(00:26:58): you start offering things you can do to help.

(00:27:01): You know,

(00:27:01): there's this stereotype of men trying to solve women's problems by telling them

(00:27:04): like what the women should do differently.

(00:27:06): But.

(00:27:08): what Jeff and I often have happened when we are venting to one another about our

(00:27:11): various problems is he'll say,

(00:27:14): oh,

(00:27:14): well,

(00:27:14): let me just do this and that'll help.

(00:27:16): And I'll start suggesting things that I can do to the point where like sometimes it

(00:27:18): becomes a problem where Jeff's like,

(00:27:20): no,

(00:27:20): no,

(00:27:21): no,

(00:27:21): I don't want you to propose that you do more of this.

(00:27:23): I just want you to listen to me vent.

(00:27:25): I want to be able to complain about this thing without you being like,

(00:27:28): oh,

(00:27:28): well,

(00:27:28): I'll do all of these things so that you don't have to deal with that anymore.

(00:27:31): I'm like, no, I'm not saying that.

(00:27:33): But we both have this impulse of like,

(00:27:36): If the other person is overwhelmed,

(00:27:38): okay,

(00:27:38): here are five things that I can do right now to help you.

(00:27:41): And that's because we love each other.

(00:27:42): And I think that if you're not seeing that in your partner,

(00:27:47): if your partner is seeing you suffer and they don't have a single idea on their own

(00:27:52): of what they could do to help you.

(00:27:54): I think that's a really bad sign.

(00:27:57): Yeah, no, it is.

(00:27:58): I mean, like even like small stuff, like, you know,

(00:28:05): Zahn has done something so I'm going to pick our daughter up from school as often

(00:28:12): as I possibly can you know to at least start getting her like 40 minutes here 40

(00:28:18): minutes there and like you know stuff like that where it's just like or or like

(00:28:24): I've had some crazy work time and so I'm gonna take

(00:28:28): uh,

(00:28:28): you know,

(00:28:29): one of our daughters in the morning as often as I can for the next few weeks to try

(00:28:32): to balance things out.

(00:28:33): Like I don't, I just do that because like, that's the right thing to do.

(00:28:37): Yeah.

(00:28:38): And it's also like, we do a lot of balance over time.

(00:28:42): Our jobs are such that we're not like working nine to five,

(00:28:45): you know,

(00:28:46): Jeff will have periods of time where he's actually working like 80 to a hundred

(00:28:51): hour weeks,

(00:28:52): you know,

(00:28:52): staying up half the night working and all of that.

(00:28:54): Um,

(00:28:56): Because that's like the nature of the work.

(00:28:57): And then, you know, after a few weeks of that, it will calm down.

(00:29:01): And so...

(00:29:02): you know, I'm bearing the brunt of most of the labor during those periods of time.

(00:29:05): And then when it calms down, like we switch back.

(00:29:08): But also like,

(00:29:09): just to clarify when it,

(00:29:10): so like,

(00:29:12): if I have to get up early because I have to go to court or something,

(00:29:16): like I still get up,

(00:29:18): I still make breakfast.

(00:29:19): I still like make the kids lunch.

(00:29:21): Like, like this shit is not an excuse.

(00:29:24): Like, obviously I can't get someone from school if I'm in court.

(00:29:28): So like, you know, that's the sort of slack that

(00:29:31): you know, needs to be picked up.

(00:29:32): But, like, you don't just give up on everything because you're busy.

(00:29:35): Because, like, you know, life is hard.

(00:29:37): And you just gotta...

(00:29:38): Men are constantly looking for,

(00:29:40): like,

(00:29:40): hall passes where they've,

(00:29:41): like,

(00:29:42): technically checked the box of,

(00:29:44): like,

(00:29:45): well,

(00:29:45): you know,

(00:29:47): I have to be there at 8 o'clock and,

(00:29:49): you know...

(00:29:51): I only have 15 minutes to give in the morning because of that.

(00:29:54): So I'm not going to give any time at all.

(00:29:56): It's like, well, actually you should give the 15 minutes.

(00:29:59): Well, and you should just get up an extra 15 minutes early that day.

(00:30:02): And you know, most people don't have jobs like this where they have these big things come up.

(00:30:07): Like most people are just nine to five and it's not that hard.

(00:30:12): Yeah.

(00:30:13): I mean, that's the other thing is like men just weaponize their jobs in such a weird way.

(00:30:17): Um,

(00:30:19): and they they lionize their jobs i'm a provider if you're not providing your

(00:30:24): partner with like emotional support quality sex a safe home like a meaningful

(00:30:32): co-parent you're not a provider you just have a fucking job which is something

(00:30:36): everybody has to have like it's not special you're not special because you work for

(00:30:41): pay and like i just really wish we could get past this thing of like

(00:30:45): Well, men are providers because they work for pay.

(00:30:47): Almost as many women work as men.

(00:30:51): Yeah, so... I forget what I was going to say.

(00:30:56): Well, you have to remember it.

(00:30:57): I know, but there's just so much pressure.

(00:31:00): Oh.

(00:31:03): We'll say something different.

(00:31:04): Well... Oh, I guess what I was going to say is...

(00:31:11): It's just like, you know, it sounds silly, I guess.

(00:31:15): But, you know, like when you could do something nice for another person, you feel good about it.

(00:31:19): And I think what so many partners don't realize is like when you actually do

(00:31:23): something nice for your spouse or when you actually do something nice for your kids,

(00:31:27): you actually feel good.

(00:31:28): Yeah.

(00:31:29): And that's what I think so many men just don't comprehend at all.

(00:31:35): Yeah.

(00:31:36): Well,

(00:31:37): I think a lot of men are going through their lives without any meaningful emotional

(00:31:41): connection to anyone or anything.

(00:31:44): And when you don't have that, you have to seek other sources of pleasure that are much emptier.

(00:31:50): And so it becomes a self-replicating cycle of,

(00:31:54): you know,

(00:31:54): they feel empty because they haven't nurtured any connection with their spouse or

(00:31:57): their kids or their family.

(00:31:59): And so,

(00:32:00): you know,

(00:32:00): by God,

(00:32:01): I'm going to have my golf or I'm going to make this whole fucking family pay.

(00:32:05): Yeah,

(00:32:06): and I think,

(00:32:07): you know,

(00:32:07): we're obviously talking mostly about parents when we're talking about these relationships.

(00:32:11): Because that's like, kids are when they're real, when the shit really hits the fan.

(00:32:16): But it begins before kids.

(00:32:17): There are warning signs.

(00:32:19): Oh, I'm sure.

(00:32:19): You know,

(00:32:21): someone asked me recently,

(00:32:23): like,

(00:32:23): why do things change so dramatically when kids arrive?

(00:32:26): Like, why do men, like, show their true colors?

(00:32:28): And I don't actually think that's what's going on.

(00:32:30): I think what's happening is there is more work when there are kids.

(00:32:34): And so what happens is...

(00:32:36): The woman increases her work and the man doesn't increase his.

(00:32:40): So let's say you had to spend like an hour on home maintenance a day before the kids.

(00:32:46): If she's spending 45 minutes and he's spending 15,

(00:32:49): you know,

(00:32:49): that's a pretty significant disparity,

(00:32:52): but it doesn't seem that significant because it's not a lot of time.

(00:32:55): You know,

(00:32:55): when you project that out to kids,

(00:32:57): it becomes a lot more time,

(00:32:58): especially if he still keeps his 15 minutes and she's increasing to,

(00:33:03): you know,

(00:33:04): all day.

(00:33:05): I think another thing that's going on in a lot of relationships,

(00:33:09): and this is really easy for things to start to slide,

(00:33:16): is if a man gets away with something once,

(00:33:22): he's going to think he can do it again.

(00:33:24): So if he comes home late...

(00:33:27): It's like, and you don't say anything.

(00:33:29): There's no problem with that.

(00:33:30): Oh, well, I guess I can do that.

(00:33:32): If he comes late and,

(00:33:34): you know,

(00:33:35): you're pissed off and he gets really threatening and then it goes away.

(00:33:40): It's like, oh, well, I guess I can do that.

(00:33:43): And I think there's a lot of slipping in terms of as soon as...

(00:33:50): As soon as...

(00:33:51): As soon as something works.

(00:33:52): As soon as something works, like, you know, like Zahn said before...

(00:33:57): there's not a lot of masterminding going on in most relationships some there

(00:34:01): certainly is like like there's there's some where like people are really get off on

(00:34:07): abuse and control but I think the vast majority of these are just like reacting and

(00:34:13): conditioned responses and uh you know like I said if if they do something and they

(00:34:19): get a good result then they're gonna do it again yeah and so um

(00:34:24): I think this is also why men often get so much worse after a woman threatens to leave,

(00:34:32): but doesn't actually leave or says she's going to file for divorce,

(00:34:35): but like nothing changes because they've seen that it can be taken to that point

(00:34:42): and still nothing happens.

(00:34:45): Um,

(00:34:46): and this is like not blaming women for not enforcing their boundaries because again,

(00:34:51): there are really high consequences,

(00:34:52): especially once there are kids.

(00:34:55): But particularly early in a relationship,

(00:34:57): like,

(00:34:58): I mean,

(00:34:59): you have it straight from the horse's mouth telling you,

(00:35:02): like,

(00:35:02): men are testing what they can get away with.

(00:35:05): Yeah.

(00:35:05): Yeah.

(00:35:06): They're like the velociraptors in Jurassic Park testing the electronic fans for weaknesses.

(00:35:13): Just like that.

(00:35:15): That guy with the hat said.

(00:35:17): Oh, my God.

(00:35:19): How's that?

(00:35:20): That's dark, but that's true.

(00:35:22): Yeah.

(00:35:25): yeah so there that definitely goes on um do you do that no yeah why would it i'm

(00:35:37): trying to think of a context in which i would do that well the reason i ask is

(00:35:40): because again like the this this dynamic of like man is like caged velociraptor it

(00:35:48): is is only occurring once the relationship

(00:35:51): or really once the man is just fundamentally broken.

(00:35:53): Well, but it's also, it's not necessarily a conscious process.

(00:35:56): And so I hesitate when you say, do I do that?

(00:35:58): I mean, we all are.

(00:36:01): I see no signs of it.

(00:36:03): No,

(00:36:03): I,

(00:36:04): I,

(00:36:04): I actually try to make sure I'm not like,

(00:36:07): you know,

(00:36:07): like if,

(00:36:08): if you're doing laundry and I don't help and,

(00:36:10): you didn't say anything and then i'm like oh well i guess i don't have to help with

(00:36:14): the laundry on tuesdays um you know that's that's what i would think if if if i

(00:36:21): wanted to get out of doing the laundry uh but i don't um and so yeah but you know

(00:36:28): we all we all just uh

(00:36:32): We all just try to, I don't know what we all try to do.

(00:36:36): I can't finish that sentence in a meaningful way.

(00:36:39): Well,

(00:36:39): the other thing that I think is going on is in so many of these relationships,

(00:36:42): there's so much indirect communication because it's not safe to speak directly.

(00:36:47): You know, I can come to you and, and, and have come to you.

(00:36:50): Yeah.

(00:36:51): Okay.

(00:36:51): So here's, here's an example of like where we actually have to negotiate like fairness.

(00:36:56): Jeff will have these times where work is really busy.

(00:37:00): And where he just has to spend most of his time at work and I just have to pick up

(00:37:04): the slack with the kids.

(00:37:05): And like,

(00:37:06): that's,

(00:37:06): that's the deal we made because like his work is really important and you know,

(00:37:10): it's important for making a good future for our kids too.

(00:37:12): And also I usually don't, I usually spend my time at home when I'm working.

(00:37:15): Yeah.

(00:37:16): Yeah.

(00:37:16): I mean,

(00:37:16): he's doing everything he can,

(00:37:17): but you know,

(00:37:18): there'll be things like Jeff usually does the cooking at night,

(00:37:21): cleans the kitchen,

(00:37:22): that sort of thing.

(00:37:24): and i may have to take up some of those things not cooking not ever cooking um no

(00:37:29): but you'll like help clean the kitchen yeah instead of like you know you usually

(00:37:34): get like 30-ish minutes after dinner to do whatever you want and i clean and hang

(00:37:38): out with the kids and like but if i have to work if i get a brief due then yeah

(00:37:42): you'll stay help to clean the kitchen so that i can get to work 30 minutes earlier

(00:37:45): but

(00:37:47): After the brief is done, sometimes we have to reconfigure responsibilities.

(00:37:51): Sometimes I have to be like, hey, no, the brief is done.

(00:37:54): You can't do a cursory cleaning of the kitchen.

(00:37:56): You have to do the whole thing.

(00:37:58): And do you start smashing and talking about how,

(00:38:01): like,

(00:38:01): I just have unreasonable standards and...

(00:38:05): No.

(00:38:06): They always clean it the same way.

(00:38:11): It's always...

(00:38:17): oh no no we don't have to cut that that no i don't ever try to do a cursory

(00:38:22): cleaning i always try to do my best work but some nights i do leave a couple things

(00:38:29): and then you tell me that's not acceptable and then i say i will do better but the

(00:38:34): point is so people get into patterns

(00:38:38): We will get into them too when he has these times of intense work.

(00:38:42): When I come to you after a time of work, then you're reintegrating back into the family.

(00:38:50): And I tell you, okay, things are not yet rebalanced.

(00:38:56): Do you say, all right, let's get out the fair playbook and spend 18 months going through it?

(00:38:59): No.

(00:39:01): Do you demand that I make a list of each and every task that needs to be done and

(00:39:05): that we do it in couples therapy for the next six years?

(00:39:08): No.

(00:39:08): What do you do?

(00:39:10): I just, I listen and then I'm like, okay, I'll do better.

(00:39:14): Yeah.

(00:39:15): And this is like not what's happening in most relationships.

(00:39:18): Yeah.

(00:39:19): Because you can't even make it explicit.

(00:39:21): And then when you do, they'll just do anything to get out of the discussion.

(00:39:24): Because they're all just little boys who want their mom to do everything for them.

(00:39:30): Yes.

(00:39:31): And that's why then women don't want to have sex with them.

(00:39:35): That and the... The filth.

(00:39:37): The filth.

(00:39:38): The shit.

(00:39:39): The sexual inadequacy.

(00:39:40): The shit on the sheets.

(00:39:43): Oh, God.

(00:39:45): I made Jeff last night read through all of the comments on one of my Men in Hygiene

(00:39:50): articles because I just really wanted him to understand the scope of how dark

(00:39:54): things are out there.

(00:39:55): He did not make it through.

(00:39:59): I mean, yeah.

(00:40:03): It was pretty, like, what the fuck?

(00:40:07): Yeah.

(00:40:09): I don't know what's going on with these guys not wiping their asses.

(00:40:15): See, this is one thing I can say.

(00:40:17): Okay, so I'm pretty sure that all of the men I've associated with in my adult life...

(00:40:25): I'm just thinking of them.

(00:40:26): Like people I was, you know, friendly or friends with.

(00:40:29): I'm already saying no.

(00:40:31): I am already saying no.

(00:40:32): Would be repulsed by the thought of not wiping their ass after they shit.

(00:40:35): No.

(00:40:36): I can't... No.

(00:40:40): No?

(00:40:40): No.

(00:40:41): Oh, God.

(00:40:46): See, this is the thing.

(00:40:47): It's like... The behaviors that you or that anybody sees...

(00:40:55): I mean, I know you know this, are not necessarily the behaviors that their wives see.

(00:40:59): What percentage of men do you think are not?

(00:41:04): Are like leaving shit stains at some places?

(00:41:07): Okay,

(00:41:07): so when I surveyed people,

(00:41:08): I think it was like 22% said that hygiene was like their most significant barrier

(00:41:13): to having sex with their husband.

(00:41:15): That's crazy that it's the most significant because like most of your respondents

(00:41:20): have like other problems in their marriage.

(00:41:22): Right.

(00:41:23): But hygiene is so bad.

(00:41:25): It's the most.

(00:41:26): Yeah.

(00:41:26): Like you could still do all these fucked up things and be super selfish.

(00:41:31): Or like,

(00:41:31): okay,

(00:41:32): so when I posted the question to my group,

(00:41:34): which has like,

(00:41:35): this is the private support group,

(00:41:36): which had like about a thousand members at the time.

(00:41:40): I would say that I got probably like 40 or 50 really like horrific responses.

(00:41:47): And you know,

(00:41:47): this is like a feminist group,

(00:41:49): so I don't think it necessarily skews toward people who have bad relationships.

(00:41:53): There are a lot of people in the group who have good relationships with partners.

(00:41:59): Um,

(00:41:59): You know,

(00:42:00): if I mention men and hygiene to,

(00:42:02): like,

(00:42:02): any given woman,

(00:42:04): she will know what I'm talking about,

(00:42:06): even if,

(00:42:06): like,

(00:42:06): her current partner does not have that issue.

(00:42:08): Like, she has had a partner with that issue.

(00:42:13): So, you know, I think the way you're framing it is, like, well, they seem normal.

(00:42:18): They don't seem like they're walking around with shitty asses.

(00:42:22): But, like, that is normal for men.

(00:42:24): And I think that's a good, like...

(00:42:30): I think that's a good analog to kind of a lot of the other things with men that all

(00:42:36): of the bad behavior that men engage in is normal.

(00:42:39): So like the men who engage in it seem normal.

(00:42:41): Well, and I've, like, I've really, all of your work has really opened my eyes.

(00:42:46): And, like, so I see men differently now.

(00:42:50): And I,

(00:42:51): you know,

(00:42:52): I'll see someone or be talking to someone,

(00:42:54): and I'm just like,

(00:42:54): you must be a fucking nightmare to deal with in your marriage.

(00:42:57): And so, like, I've come, like, you know, my thinking has evolved dramatically.

(00:43:05): But, and so...

(00:43:08): But when you add,

(00:43:09): like,

(00:43:09): this shit-staining aspect of it,

(00:43:12): like,

(00:43:13): I revert back to my old thinking where it's like,

(00:43:15): well,

(00:43:16): it can't be all.

(00:43:16): It can't be so many.

(00:43:17): Like,

(00:43:18): it can't be,

(00:43:18): like,

(00:43:19): 90% of these marriages are,

(00:43:21): like,

(00:43:21): 90% of these guys are just,

(00:43:22): like,

(00:43:23): fucking nightmares to deal with at home.

(00:43:25): But so, like, but now I know they are.

(00:43:27): But now I'm like, it can't be that that many are just, like, not showering or not.

(00:43:33): Well, think, okay, think about it this way.

(00:43:35): Like,

(00:43:35): think about like a typical like single man's apartment or like a dorm or like a

(00:43:40): men's public bathroom.

(00:43:42): They're the most disgusting things you can imagine.

(00:43:46): Yeah, I lived in a fraternity house.

(00:43:50): Yeah, what was the level of cleanliness there?

(00:43:55): Oh, it was bad.

(00:43:56): Yeah.

(00:43:56): It was real bad.

(00:43:57): Like, how bad?

(00:43:59): Define bad.

(00:43:59): Hmm.

(00:44:06): I don't know, 100,000 units of badness.

(00:44:12): I don't know that the toilets were ever cleaned.

(00:44:14): I also personally felt like they were shocking.

(00:44:17): Oh, no, you know what?

(00:44:18): I think I did find out.

(00:44:19): Yeah, there was one guy who did clean the toilet.

(00:44:21): Yeah, there was one guy.

(00:44:23): There was one guy.

(00:44:24): Yeah.

(00:44:25): Well, why would anyone else do it?

(00:44:26): If someone's doing it already, I mean... But no, it was bad.

(00:44:34): I spent very little time in...

(00:44:36): in that place.

(00:44:38): Like I, you know, I, my philosophy in college was if I'm in my dorm, I'm not working.

(00:44:41): So I stayed in the library, wherever, stayed out of there.

(00:44:46): So, um, no, it was bad.

(00:44:49): We're off track though.

(00:44:50): What, what, what, what?

(00:44:52): Well, I, I think that this, this filth thing is kind of like part of the patriarchal playbook.

(00:44:56): Oh, this is what I was going to say.

(00:44:58): So, but also what's surprising, I guess a little bit about it is like, if you,

(00:45:06): Being filthy and repulsive is not part of this traditional toxic masculinity kind of thing.

(00:45:14): You're supposed to look suave and put together and wear nice clothes and have a

(00:45:18): commanding presence and be confident.

(00:45:20): And you can't be confident if you're scratching your ass.

(00:45:24): That's what I would expect.

(00:45:26): So...

(00:45:29): But,

(00:45:29): you know,

(00:45:30): obviously these guys are not living up to those standards because they're not

(00:45:33): living up to any standards because they're just,

(00:45:35): like,

(00:45:35): have no self-respect,

(00:45:36): I guess.

(00:45:38): Yeah, but, I mean, the flip side is, like, look at someone like Andrew Tate.

(00:45:40): Like, he looks like someone who smells bad.

(00:45:45): Like, he looks like he has bad hygiene.

(00:45:47): He looks like over-coloned, I think.

(00:45:49): Well, I mean... I don't want to talk about that.

(00:45:51): That guy needs to be irrelevant.

(00:45:55): Um...

(00:45:56): You know,

(00:45:56): I think with some of these guys,

(00:45:57): like you said,

(00:45:58): there's like this testing to see what you can get away with.

(00:46:01): For sure.

(00:46:02): And, you know, there's like a laziness element of it.

(00:46:05): And then when you see that you can get away with the bad hygiene,

(00:46:09): I think it becomes a proxy for like all the other things you can get away with.

(00:46:13): There is definitely like a, um, a, uh,

(00:46:21): Look how disgusting I can make myself.

(00:46:24): Sexism.

(00:46:26): Really?

(00:46:26): You've encountered it.

(00:46:27): Say more about that.

(00:46:28): I don't want to say any names.

(00:46:30): Well, like...

(00:46:32): I'm going to make myself repulsive to you.

(00:46:35): And I'm going to do it to show you that I can do it.

(00:46:38): Yeah.

(00:46:39): And it's like a flex.

(00:46:41): Yeah.

(00:46:42): Guys who like know something about your work.

(00:46:46): And so they want to make themselves seem like they're sexists.

(00:46:50): Yeah.

(00:46:51): Like they present as a sexist almost to like,

(00:46:53): you know,

(00:46:54): I don't know if it's a power play or if it's like misplaced humor.

(00:47:00): Yeah.

(00:47:00): We've like encountered men.

(00:47:03): like acquaintances working world who like make a big show of how like sexist they

(00:47:07): are once they learn about my work and i think that's like similar to like the

(00:47:13): disgusting thing yeah like oh look how yeah yeah yeah that's what i mean yeah so

(00:47:19): like you know because they don't want to be judged on their own terms so they're

(00:47:23): just they just like accept my terms of like oh yes i am terrible there's also like

(00:47:27): this strong contingent there's strong kind of belief in men of like

(00:47:32): I should be accepted no matter what.

(00:47:34): Yes.

(00:47:34): And so as soon as you question, you know, hey, could you, you know, your breath stinks.

(00:47:40): It's like, well, I'm going to show you.

(00:47:42): You should love me no matter what.

(00:47:43): You should love me no matter what.

(00:47:44): Now I'm going to make it even stinkier.

(00:47:46): You know, I think that that dynamic plays out a lot.

(00:47:49): I don't know where men get this idea that they're entitled to this like unquestioned.

(00:47:55): Well, because men are never taught that they have to earn love.

(00:47:57): They're never taught that they have to earn relationships.

(00:48:00): Like we,

(00:48:01): our entire lives,

(00:48:02): women are socialized to like believe that we are unworthy and to believe that it is

(00:48:07): a gift for men to be willing to be with us and that our bodies are gross and

(00:48:12): unworthy and that,

(00:48:14): you know,

(00:48:14): we're shameful for wanting anything.

(00:48:16): You know, you're bad if you want a birthday present.

(00:48:19): And men are just taught that like, yeah, if you want it, it should be yours.

(00:48:24): Yeah.

(00:48:25): And so,

(00:48:25): of course,

(00:48:26): she should have sex with you no matter what you do or how you look or how you

(00:48:31): behave during sex or anything else.

(00:48:33): I think men are taught more specifically...

(00:48:37): they're taught like there's a pursuit you have to earn into the relationship but

(00:48:43): once you're in the relationship that's done it's yours you're entitled to it you

(00:48:48): know you she is your property she cannot look at other guys she cannot talk to

(00:48:53): other guys and like so there's like a a charm right like you have to pursue the

(00:48:58): girl like that's definitely like ingrained in it but it's like once you get her you

(00:49:03): got her and that's the end

(00:49:05): Yeah,

(00:49:05): I think that's,

(00:49:06): I mean,

(00:49:06): that certainly explains the like,

(00:49:08): well,

(00:49:08): my wife left for no reason.

(00:49:10): You know, she's boycotting sex for no reason sort of dynamic.

(00:49:14): Like you, you got your appliance, you paid for it.

(00:49:17): Right.

(00:49:18): It's paid in full.

(00:49:19): It's supposed to be yours now.

(00:49:21): yeah well it's i mean it's it's a property thing right like it's it's like i i i

(00:49:29): can tell her who she can look at and all of that is fine because like she is mine

(00:49:37): and that's how that's how it that's how men are definitely like

(00:49:41): raised to think about relationships and that's definitely like reflected and i mean

(00:49:46): so many of like even songs like some of these lyrics of some of these songs you

(00:49:51): know watching you what's this god yeah that sting song yeah super creepy stuff um

(00:49:59): but that's what we hear right yeah yeah that's what's normalized

(00:50:06): Yeah, it's ownership.

(00:50:07): And yeah, you're right.

(00:50:09): So, okay.

(00:50:10): So ownership and women as objects just always goes back to this as explanations for

(00:50:16): why men behave the way they do.

(00:50:18): But I think a really important thing to keep in mind is that,

(00:50:23): you know,

(00:50:24): it's,

(00:50:24): it's not just men behaving this way.

(00:50:26): It's our society viewing the way men behave as like not that bad and normal.

(00:50:32): And that too is rooted in the idea that women are possessions and

(00:50:36): that too is rooted in the idea that women owe men something that men don't owe women.

(00:50:41): And once you abandon those ideas,

(00:50:45): kind of everything that's happening just becomes very clear,

(00:50:49): I think.

(00:50:51): So like,

(00:50:52): I guess it seems like you have two kind of tracks and well,

(00:50:56): multiple tracks and like what you're doing,

(00:50:58): but like one is like,

(00:51:01): getting women to realize this on the front end and then the other is like dealing

(00:51:06): with it when they're already in it and i guess like what do you what do you what do

(00:51:19): you do to what do you do what do you do what do you yeah what do

(00:51:26): When... I mean, like... When women are in these... This is a real problem.

(00:51:33): Yes, Jeff.

(00:51:36): It's so apparent that the world needed you to put it in front of them.

(00:51:45): Well, I mean, it's been a problem.

(00:51:47): It's been a problem all before I was even breathing, let alone talking about it.

(00:51:53): And...

(00:51:54): You know,

(00:51:55): I think that this is one of the challenges of my work is that when we're doing this

(00:52:02): feminist advocacy kind of stuff,

(00:52:04): particularly in like a social media world where you have to keep an audience,

(00:52:10): people often want to quickly pivot to this like self-help kind of stuff.

(00:52:15): And that's how you get into this like, buy my course, you know, buy my book.

(00:52:20): Here are the five ways to finally get him to listen to you.

(00:52:24): and i have explicitly and aggressively avoided doing that because for patriarchy to

(00:52:31): end the people who created it have to stop buying into it and that's men and you

(00:52:38): can't communicate your way into him thinking that you're a human who matters and so

(00:52:45): you know this begins

(00:52:46): before the relationship start,

(00:52:48): I've said this a million times,

(00:52:49): like we have to render these men fully unfuckable.

(00:52:53): We have to become confident being single because the primary way that patriarchy

(00:52:58): gets control of women,

(00:52:59): especially now,

(00:53:00): especially in this political climate where we're trying to prevent women from

(00:53:04): getting divorced,

(00:53:04): where we're trying to force women into pregnancies,

(00:53:06): where we're trying to do all of these awful things is by romantic relationships

(00:53:12): with men and especially romantic relationships with men

(00:53:16): that then end in having children.

(00:53:18): Because once you've got those children, he can use them to control you.

(00:53:23): So, you know, there is no quick fix.

(00:53:27): I do think that women who are in these relationships need to pivot hard away from,

(00:53:33): am I overreacting?

(00:53:35): Am I unreasonable?

(00:53:36): What do I need to do differently?

(00:53:38): Pivot away from analyzing every single thing he's doing.

(00:53:42): I think it is really important to accept the kind of relationship that you are in

(00:53:46): and say,

(00:53:46): I am in a relationship with the patriarchy.

(00:53:48): My oppressor is in my bed and he's going to use this playbook because they all use the playbook.

(00:53:54): So how can I weaponize the playbook against him?

(00:53:58): How can I stop allowing him to take up so much of my time?

(00:54:02): How can I protect myself given that these are the confines I find myself in and the

(00:54:07): The individual answer is going to vary from person to person.

(00:54:10): Often the answer is stop going to couples therapy.

(00:54:13): That's an hour a week you can get back.

(00:54:15): You know, stop trying to convince him to change because he's not going to change.

(00:54:20): Stop doing anything that makes his life better.

(00:54:22): He doesn't need you to do his fucking laundry.

(00:54:25): You know, that's where we talk about like quiet quitting.

(00:54:27): Like what can you do to take back a little bit of your life from this person who's

(00:54:33): trying to steal as much of it as he possibly can?

(00:54:36): I think there's value too.

(00:54:37): And like the laundry thing,

(00:54:39): for example,

(00:54:39): it's like the,

(00:54:41): I don't know if it's,

(00:54:42): I don't know anything about relationships,

(00:54:44): but make,

(00:54:47): make them make it explicit.

(00:54:51): And like that,

(00:54:51): that's like kind of a thing I have of like just dealing with people generally,

(00:54:55): but make them make it explicit.

(00:54:57): And how do you do that?

(00:54:58): You just stop doing laundry.

(00:55:00): And then what does he say?

(00:55:01): You have to do my laundry.

(00:55:02): Yeah.

(00:55:03): because having you know that having this like expectation this unsaid unspoken

(00:55:10): expectation you know that's one thing but like if he's gonna say no it's your job

(00:55:16): to do my laundry like make him say that and and you know it makes it it puts it out

(00:55:22): in the open yeah i agree you know the other thing is like patriarchy tears us down

(00:55:29): um

(00:55:30): And then it traumatizes us.

(00:55:31): You know, almost all women have been traumatized by patriarchy in some way.

(00:55:35): And then we enter these relationships with men who further terrorize us and tear us

(00:55:40): down and weaponize trauma against us and all of that.

(00:55:43): And then the message that patriarchy gives back to us is,

(00:55:48): but that's the person from whom you're supposed to derive your sense of self.

(00:55:53): That's the person from whom you're supposed to get love.

(00:55:55): So what ends up happening is the very people who are harming us,

(00:56:02): we women are constantly seeking love from them because it's the only way we've

(00:56:06): learned to get validation.

(00:56:08): So women are constantly trying to get their abusers to say, oh, you're right.

(00:56:14): Oh, you really don't deserve the abuse.

(00:56:16): Oh, you really are doing a lot with the kids.

(00:56:18): They're constantly seeking validation from men because

(00:56:23): One, they're not getting it anywhere else.

(00:56:24): Two, their self-esteem has been decimated.

(00:56:26): And three, they have been indoctrinated to believe that they need these men to validate them.

(00:56:32): You know, your partner, if he's this kind of man, is never going to offer that validation.

(00:56:37): And all of the time that you spend seeking it is time that you feel worse and time

(00:56:43): that you waste.

(00:56:45): So just accept that...

(00:56:47): he's not going to give it to you because he lacks that ability.

(00:56:49): Patriarchy has rotted his brain.

(00:56:52): And this is like an insight that,

(00:56:53): that I got from you years ago,

(00:56:55): Jeff,

(00:56:55): with relationships with people that like,

(00:56:59): They're not going to give that thing to you that you keep seeking from them.

(00:57:03): Right.

(00:57:03): If they were going to give it to you, they already would have.

(00:57:05): It's the won't, can't kind of thing.

(00:57:10): Yeah.

(00:57:10): Like I would,

(00:57:11): you know,

(00:57:12): I would have these problems with like friends or family members and I would agonize

(00:57:15): with Jeff about like,

(00:57:16): well,

(00:57:16): why aren't they giving it to me?

(00:57:18): Do you think it's that they can't do it?

(00:57:20): Do you think it's that they don't think I deserve it?

(00:57:21): Like why, why, why?

(00:57:23): And he would just say like, it doesn't matter if it's won't or can't.

(00:57:27): It's not going to.

(00:57:29): Yeah, just, you can't, you know, you have to take what people offer you.

(00:57:36): And, you know, that's all you can do.

(00:57:39): Yeah.

(00:57:40): And if what he's offered you is shit for 20 years, like, you're not going to get more of that.

(00:57:45): So just try to pull back as much you can from him.

(00:57:48): Like,

(00:57:49): even if it's just little teeny tiny things,

(00:57:51): whatever you can do to take back safely your dignity,

(00:57:55): do that.

(00:57:56): There's almost always something there.

(00:57:58): And it seems like just,

(00:58:00): I only know what things you've shared with me from things readers have,

(00:58:03): have written,

(00:58:04): but like,

(00:58:05): it seems like that kind of unplugging and like giving up on caring itself is like

(00:58:13): kind of cathartic and liberating.

(00:58:15): Yeah.

(00:58:16): Yeah.

(00:58:17): Like women will just post the shitty texts that their husbands send to them in my group.

(00:58:22): And I think that is really powerful because they're no longer invested in

(00:58:28): getting this man to love them.

(00:58:30): They're instead just mocking him among a group of women.

(00:58:33): And there's a lot of power in laughing at men.

(00:58:36): I have a number of readers who have started just recording their husbands every

(00:58:40): time they act shitty so that their husbands know that they're being mocked and also

(00:58:44): the husbands behave better when the camera comes out.

(00:58:48): Yeah, isn't that funny?

(00:58:50): It's like they actually can do it.

(00:58:52): Yeah.

(00:58:54): People losing their shit and as soon as there's an audience, they snap out of it.

(00:58:58): Yeah.

(00:58:59): And I think that's weird how they can just snap out of it.

(00:59:01): Yeah.

(00:59:02): It almost suggests that, you know, it's deliberate.

(00:59:05): It's not that they're neurodivergent or losing control or they know.

(00:59:09): Yeah.

(00:59:10): Yeah.

(00:59:10): They know what they're doing.

(00:59:12): If he can snap out of it when there's a police officer or a witness or a camera,

(00:59:17): it is a conscious choice.

(00:59:19): He knows what he's doing.

(00:59:24): I have another question for you.

(00:59:26): Yes.

(00:59:27): I have to think about it this way.

(00:59:33): Did you have a question and you lost it or you just felt like you needed to ask me

(00:59:36): another question?

(00:59:39): The latter.

(00:59:43): I appreciate the honesty.

(00:59:49): I did have a question at some point.

(00:59:52): I'm sure you've had many questions.

(00:59:54): I know there are many things in your brain.

(00:59:58): Oh, I did want to clarify something.

(01:00:00): When I said that the world needed you to point this out, I think that was inartful.

(01:00:08): What I should have said and meant to say is that the world needs you to continue

(01:00:15): putting all of this into words.

(01:00:18): You've got people swarming around you who just...

(01:00:23): think your work is amazing.

(01:00:25): And it's, I just totally blown away by that.

(01:00:29): But no, like,

(01:00:33): there's something like the, the obviousness of something.

(01:00:36): Cause I said something about like,

(01:00:37): it's,

(01:00:37): it's,

(01:00:38): it's so apparent that it's,

(01:00:39): it was so apparent that everyone needs you to,

(01:00:42): or needed you to,

(01:00:43): to point it out.

(01:00:44): And like that stuff that's so apparent is like the stuff that just flies by.

(01:00:51): Like, you know, for, for example, um,

(01:00:56): You know,

(01:00:57): the fact that our country per capita incarcerates more of its citizens than any

(01:01:02): other country.

(01:01:04): People are worried about the police state, right?

(01:01:06): With a new administration.

(01:01:08): Yeah, we have our concerns too.

(01:01:11): But it's like people, we've been living in a police state.

(01:01:14): Yeah.

(01:01:16): Yeah.

(01:01:16): You know,

(01:01:17): these things that are just normalized,

(01:01:22): everyday things that like we just accept as true and even acknowledge that they're true,

(01:01:26): but they don't mean anything to us.

(01:01:28): And those are often the most like, you know, invidious.

(01:01:36): think that's a good word the word i want i don't know if it is but like those are

(01:01:39): often the most like pernicious and like dangerous things and so you know obviously

(01:01:46): you putting all of this like women just read your stuff and they identify with it

(01:01:51): immediately which is like i mean if i were a man who uh

(01:01:58): you know, was worried about my relationship or something like that.

(01:02:03): Um,

(01:02:04): uh,

(01:02:05): that would be a wake up call for me where like,

(01:02:07): whoa,

(01:02:07): like,

(01:02:08): like women are like,

(01:02:09): yeah,

(01:02:10): she's saying what's true.

(01:02:11): Um, I don't know.

(01:02:13): I don't know at what point there's going to be a wake up call.

(01:02:17): Uh, I think it's happening.

(01:02:19): I think,

(01:02:20): you know,

(01:02:21): I think what really has to happen is that women have to get comfortable being

(01:02:24): single and say just like no more.

(01:02:28): Um,

(01:02:29): That's so hard for women, though.

(01:02:30): It's so hard.

(01:02:31): It's so hard because we're socialized not to do it.

(01:02:33): And it's so hard because we want kids.

(01:02:35): And it's so hard for men.

(01:02:36): I mean, it's so hard for anyone to be single because like we're all taught.

(01:02:40): Yeah.

(01:02:41): Like you have to have a spouse to be worthwhile.

(01:02:44): Well,

(01:02:45): and that initial like rush of someone liking you,

(01:02:49): I think sometimes even especially if they're also rejecting you is intoxicating.

(01:02:54): And so you have to

(01:02:56): Be really mindful of how those dynamics rope you in if you're going to resist them.

(01:03:01): Yeah, they need to replace it with something else.

(01:03:07): Like what?

(01:03:10): Mushrooms.

(01:03:14): Hobbies.

(01:03:17): You know, the comfort of knowing that you are safe...

(01:03:24): perhaps being more valuable than that initial male validation.

(01:03:28): Do women feel safe when they're alone though?

(01:03:30): Because that's kind of a scary thing too, isn't it?

(01:03:34): I think that a lot of women feel less safe with a man in their life.

(01:03:39): A myth that I see going around right now a lot in feminist circles is that

(01:03:46): well,

(01:03:46): at least if you're married,

(01:03:47): you have some protection against this Trump-Musk administration.

(01:03:52): And there's no evidence of that.

(01:03:55): That's just a completely offhand, off-the-wall thing that people say.

(01:04:00): Right.

(01:04:02): You know, being married has not provided me with any protection from men at all.

(01:04:08): I still get harassed every time I leave the house.

(01:04:12): I solve all kinds of problems with men.

(01:04:14): And I'm someone who's really like minimized my interactions with men.

(01:04:18): So being married has not provided me with any protection.

(01:04:22): And if I were not married to Jeff and were married to like a typical patriarchal man,

(01:04:28): being married would mean that I was never safe in my house,

(01:04:32): that I was living with the patriarchy and,

(01:04:34): you know,

(01:04:35): living with someone who was oppressing me and harming my children and all of that.

(01:04:39): Single women are objectively safer.

(01:04:42): You know, men don't,

(01:04:44): like say oh well she's single so i'm gonna harass her i'm that's just not how it

(01:04:49): works they see women they say harass um yeah that's all fair so i think it's a it

(01:04:56): feels less safe it feels less safe and i think that women need to sit with like why

(01:05:02): is that and there are lots of ways to not be alone that don't involve

(01:05:07): men you know there are you know you could platonically marry your best friend you

(01:05:14): could who could also be a man by the way because there is those yeah the lavender

(01:05:18): relationships yeah um you could you could draw up a contract with your four closest

(01:05:24): friends buy a property together and you know have agreements about how you're going

(01:05:28): to do things i think that one thing that marriage does give us is marriage gives us

(01:05:33): a set of agreements about how we're going to

(01:05:35): behave you know we all have a general understanding of what marriage is and we can

(01:05:40): have those kinds of explicit agreements with other people um isn't the problem with

(01:05:44): marriage that we don't have any agreements about how we're going to behave well i

(01:05:48): that's yeah so most marriages do not have agreements about how you're going to

(01:05:52): behave that are explicit so they default to the patriarchal agreements of you know

(01:05:58): the woman's going to do all the work the man's going to have all the fun the woman

(01:06:01): is going to exist as an object for the man to use and

(01:06:04): that sort of thing.

(01:06:05): You know,

(01:06:06): relationships are much better when you make your agreements explicit and marriage

(01:06:11): only feels safer because we have a cultural understanding of what it means.

(01:06:17): You know,

(01:06:17): we don't have a cultural understanding that like your three best friends are the

(01:06:21): people that you're going to take everywhere with you or that they're going to be

(01:06:24): the people you vacation with or the people you raise children with or the people

(01:06:27): who are with you when you are dying.

(01:06:29): But they can be like you can do that.

(01:06:33): And I've especially seen it

(01:06:35): With the older women I know,

(01:06:37): like my mom had this drum group and,

(01:06:41): you know,

(01:06:42): most of them have outlived or divorced their husbands.

(01:06:46): And so they're single women now and they are not alone.

(01:06:51): Their lives are rich.

(01:06:53): They're too social for my taste.

(01:06:55): I would find it overwhelming.

(01:06:57): Um, they're always together.

(01:06:59): They support each other through everything.

(01:07:01): They travel together and, and you can do that.

(01:07:05): And I think that if you look around,

(01:07:06): you'll see that that's something that a lot of older women are already doing.

(01:07:10): Um,

(01:07:11): you know,

(01:07:11): they tend to have like really good friendships because after you've lived a life

(01:07:15): with men,

(01:07:15): you start to see that like,

(01:07:16): they're not really the path to not being alone.

(01:07:21): So things that feel scary are not necessarily dangerous.

(01:07:25): And I think that women need to sit with, like, why does being single feel scary?

(01:07:31): It's not because it objectively is more dangerous.

(01:07:35): Should we do some patriarchal playbook examples?

(01:07:39): Well, do you have some?

(01:07:41): I don't know.

(01:07:41): Say something to me.

(01:07:43): Oh, boy.

(01:07:46): Let's see if I can do it.

(01:07:48): Okay.

(01:07:48): I'll make up some common concerns.

(01:07:53): You didn't do a good job cleaning the kitchen tonight.

(01:07:56): Do you have any idea how stressed I am right now?

(01:08:02): Do you have any idea how much work I have to do?

(01:08:05): There we go.

(01:08:05): You know, I have clients whose lives or livelihoods depend on what I... Yeah, right.

(01:08:15): Ten minutes later.

(01:08:17): Longer than it would have taken to just fix the fucking kitchen.

(01:08:20): Yeah.

(01:08:21): Okay.

(01:08:22): What's another example?

(01:08:24): I'll probably just say the same thing.

(01:08:27): Do you want to make a list of questions for the kids' parent-teacher conference?

(01:08:33): I don't know.

(01:08:33): I'll just go in and see what they have to say.

(01:08:36): It seems like they're doing fine to me.

(01:08:38): I think that you yell at the kids too much.

(01:08:41): Well, you don't discipline them for anything.

(01:08:43): Yeah.

(01:08:44): You let them get away with everything, right?

(01:08:47): I think the kids are watching too much TV when they're with you.

(01:08:52): Well, they were watching shows with you the other day.

(01:08:56): I don't say anything.

(01:08:57): You know, I don't police your parenting.

(01:08:58): It's easy.

(01:08:59): You just get defensive.

(01:09:00): You just, like, basically say, you know, what is it?

(01:09:04): The thing?

(01:09:05): Deflect.

(01:09:05): Darvo.

(01:09:06): Darvo.

(01:09:07): Yeah.

(01:09:07): Yeah, that's it.

(01:09:08): And,

(01:09:08): you know,

(01:09:09): like,

(01:09:09): what's really interesting is,

(01:09:10): like,

(01:09:11): so we don't have,

(01:09:11): like,

(01:09:12): video recordings of this.

(01:09:14): And,

(01:09:14): like,

(01:09:15): I am making up concerns that aren't mine just because they're,

(01:09:19): like,

(01:09:19): the common things that I see.

(01:09:21): And Jeff is, like, following a script that I know is not his.

(01:09:25): And I am finding myself, like, having, like, a, like, withdraw reaction.

(01:09:29): Like, it feels intimidating to me to, like, even play through it because, like, men are scary.

(01:09:37): All right.

(01:09:38): Well, let's try and do it the way we would do it.

(01:09:39): All right.

(01:09:41): Say something to me and I'll do a real reaction.

(01:09:44): Um, just say the same thing.

(01:09:47): Oh, okay.

(01:09:48): Uh,

(01:09:50): well,

(01:09:51): so can you get up with the kids earlier in the day or can you start getting up with

(01:09:57): the kids in the morning?

(01:09:58): Jeff already gets up.

(01:10:00): I do get up with the kids in the morning.

(01:10:02): I pride myself on getting, no matter how sick I feel, you know, I would say a few times a year.

(01:10:07): Um,

(01:10:08): don't do it no like well like how about the kids are watching too much tv yeah so

(01:10:13): the kids are the kids are watching too much tv on the weekends when you have them

(01:10:17): yeah you're right i've been exhausted uh yeah i agree yeah and that's generally

(01:10:22): like how it goes and you know the nice thing about having a co-parent who shares

(01:10:29): your values is you have someone who can like

(01:10:32): Check your impulses.

(01:10:33): Right.

(01:10:34): And you have someone who's like feedback you can trust.

(01:10:36): Like,

(01:10:36): I know that if Jeff tells me that I'm being too short with the kids,

(01:10:40): he's not saying that to hurt me.

(01:10:41): Right.

(01:10:41): He's not saying that to win an argument.

(01:10:44): He's saying that because he just thinks I'm being too short with the kids.

(01:10:47): And usually the follow-up question is going to be like, are you okay?

(01:10:50): or like what do you need to like not have that yeah or like why don't you like get

(01:10:55): out of here yeah and you know go go go downstairs or something and i'll i'll handle

(01:11:01): them because like usually it's because of you know the kids have been you know

(01:11:06): terrorists just doing the thing they do you don't have to fight for like 30 hours

(01:11:10): to get to the root cause of something you know usually when someone's doing

(01:11:13): something you know why so this is like way off track but you know like

(01:11:18): you can solve problems in five minutes and you can commit to behavior change

(01:11:22): immediately you don't have to fight for 20 hours about everything you want your

(01:11:26): partner to change and if that is the dynamic in your marriage or if it's a dynamic

(01:11:31): of like disappearing things or he stonewalls for three days and then you plead with

(01:11:36): him and you know whatever he's just weaponizing like the patriarchy stuff um

(01:11:43): But also,

(01:11:44): I hesitate to try to give any tips for dealing with men,

(01:11:52): but what I said before about make it explicit,

(01:11:57): you need to be as explicit and targeted as possible so that the reaction

(01:12:05): you know the reaction you get is can be seen for what it is and so like not you're

(01:12:11): not teaching the kids enough or not that like you're letting the kids I think

(01:12:16): you're watching letting the kids watch too much TV yeah you know how much TV do you

(01:12:20): think they should be watching

(01:12:22): Like, because then when you get the defensive reaction, you can just be like, whoa.

(01:12:28): Yeah.

(01:12:28): Whoa.

(01:12:29): You don't want to talk about how much TV our kids are watching.

(01:12:31): Like,

(01:12:32): like pick very targeted things because like,

(01:12:35): it just makes the overreactions all the more apparent and apparent to you.

(01:12:40): And it makes like deflection even more difficult because what I would think the

(01:12:46): best move for Zahn,

(01:12:47): if she says,

(01:12:48): you're letting the kids watch too much TV.

(01:12:49): Well, what about you?

(01:12:52): would be like, oh, well, do you think we're both letting them watch too much TV?

(01:12:55): Yeah.

(01:12:56): You know, like, always just make them say the thing that they're actually thinking.

(01:13:01): But not that you can.

(01:13:03): And,

(01:13:03): like,

(01:13:03): this doesn't apply to,

(01:13:04): like,

(01:13:05): you know,

(01:13:05): someone who's just going to start,

(01:13:08): you know,

(01:13:08): escalating and abusing.

(01:13:09): But, like, it's... A lot of people...

(01:13:13): are just really bad at speaking directly and speaking simply.

(01:13:18): And the reason he's suggesting this is not,

(01:13:20): this is not like communicate your partner into better behavior.

(01:13:24): It's once you see what he really thinks,

(01:13:29): it's easier for you to disengage from your emotional attachment to what he says.

(01:13:34): Once you see that what he really thinks is,

(01:13:37): well,

(01:13:37): I'm allowed to put them on the TV because I shouldn't really have to be parenting

(01:13:41): because I'm the man.

(01:13:43): then it becomes a lot easier to just be like, I don't really give a shit what this dude thinks.

(01:13:49): Sure.

(01:13:49): Well, and also just like, I mean, communicating directly is just good advice for life.

(01:13:55): You know, speaking simply.

(01:13:57): Well, and women are taught to communicate indirectly and to not assert their needs.

(01:14:02): And,

(01:14:03): you know,

(01:14:03): the more you assert your needs and the more you communicate directly,

(01:14:05): the more you just have evidence that like,

(01:14:07): he's not going to meet those needs because he doesn't think he has to.

(01:14:10): Right, yeah, this is not like a fix, you know, like the advice column that you critiqued.

(01:14:19): This is not like that, where you just need to tell them your needs.

(01:14:23): It's just like, you know, if they're going to play games, then you need to minimize...

(01:14:33): and this is what I would do with like a boss or anyone,

(01:14:36): or,

(01:14:36): or like if a judge is getting on me about something,

(01:14:39): you know,

(01:14:40): choose your words carefully,

(01:14:41): minimize what you say.

(01:14:43): Uh,

(01:14:43): but make sure each,

(01:14:45): each thing you say is,

(01:14:46): is,

(01:14:46): is,

(01:14:47): you know,

(01:14:47): short declarative to the point and,

(01:14:50): and then,

(01:14:51): and then remain calm.

(01:14:53): Yeah.

(01:14:53): Don't give them the reward.

(01:14:54): Cause what a lot of these guys want is they want the big emotional reaction.

(01:14:58): They want to gaslight you into freaking out.

(01:15:01): And then they want to make you feel bad so that they can withdraw and you,

(01:15:05): because you've been socialized to pursue,

(01:15:08): go beg him back.

(01:15:09): And then the issue that you have raised disappears.

(01:15:14): And so you, you can't give them the reward of that emotional reaction.

(01:15:19): Yeah.

(01:15:19): Cause that, that I agree.

(01:15:21): Um, I mean that that's, I think that's a scary thing.

(01:15:25): Like if a, if a man does something wrong and the reaction is like, yeah, yeah.

(01:15:30): okay he'll be like um what uh oh boy yeah should i be scared yeah like is she gonna

(01:15:37): poison me anyway i think we've hit our yeah i think that's it so um you can find a

(01:15:46): lot more information on the liberating motherhood website i really recommend

(01:15:50): checking it out it's liberatingmotherhood.org there's a form where you can submit

(01:15:56): feminist advice friday questions you can submit

(01:16:00): podcast vignettes.

(01:16:01): There's just like a ton of information up there.

(01:16:04): And I haven't really been pushing the website, but it's like a really useful one-stop shop.

(01:16:10): Of course, if you're listening to this, youknowson.substack.com.

(01:16:14): Our next episode is going to... Do you want to tell them that you're working on a book?

(01:16:19): I am working on a book.

(01:16:21): It's about postpartum depression.

(01:16:23): And I am probably going to need people to share stories at some point.

(01:16:28): So if you...

(01:16:30): If you submit a podcast vignette,

(01:16:33): and I think it's useful for the book,

(01:16:35): I may follow up with you.

(01:16:36): So please, if you're willing to do that, include your email address.

(01:16:42): Yeah, there's a book.

(01:16:44): It's coming slowly, but it's coming.

(01:16:49): Our next episode is going to be with Mary Catherine Starr.

(01:16:52): Your next episode.

(01:16:54): I'm just a guest.

(01:16:55): That's true.

(01:16:56): That's true.

(01:16:58): My next episode, Jeff will not be there, is with Mary Catherine Starr.

(01:17:03): She writes Mom Life Comics.

(01:17:04): She also has a book coming out, except that her book is coming out in less than two weeks.

(01:17:08): So we're going to be talking about her book,

(01:17:11): about the lies we're all sold about motherhood,

(01:17:15): about how patriarchy affects motherhood and a whole bunch of other stuff.

(01:17:19): So that will be out in a week.

(01:17:21): I highly recommend listening.

(01:17:23): And if you can...

(01:17:25): I really hope that you will leave positive reviews of this podcast.

(01:17:29): It really, really helps with visibility, as does sharing, commenting, engaging on social media.

(01:17:35): Just kind of the more you post about this podcast, the more visible it becomes.

(01:17:40): It sucks that I have to ask for that, but that's how social media works.

(01:17:44): So make it more visible, and there will be more episodes.

(01:17:48): And there will be more women who think like you.

(01:17:50): Yeah, more women who think like you.

(01:17:53): And that's really what we want is to get the message out so we can build a better

(01:17:57): world so that our generation is the last generation to deal with this absolute

(01:18:01): fucking bullshit.

(01:18:02): And to have men think, oh shit.

(01:18:06): Yeah.

(01:18:07): To have men living in fear.

(01:18:09): It's really men who we want to be fearful.

(01:18:13): Yeah.

(01:18:13): Okay.

(01:18:14): So...

(01:18:14): I had, I was fighting with some men on the internet before we started this episode.

(01:18:18): And I've just remembered some of those fights.

(01:18:20): We really just want men to live in the kind of fear that they forced us to live in

(01:18:24): for hundreds,

(01:18:25): if not thousands of years.

(01:18:27): And one of the ways to achieve that is by making more people listen to my podcast.

(01:18:34): All right, that's it.

(01:18:35): I'll talk to you guys soon.