Okay, Corey, thank you for coming in today. Corey Bricker from Cass Pay. I'm not going to put words in your mouth about Cass Pay or who you are and what you do. So could you tell us what Cass Pay is? Yeah, CASPAY, so it's kind of a long story, but CAS Information Systems is a financial holding company that does invoice transaction processing. So you guys are, but a financial holding company, you just said a lot. So, unpack that formula a little bit. As lame in as you can make it. Yeah, I was going to get, I'm laying out what it is and then I'll explain it. Sorry, I'm going to stop talking. No, no, it's okay. So, invoice processing in certain spend categories for large corporates so freight, utilities, telecom and waste, large corporates so Dow, Ford, companies like this come to us to outsource invoice processing and payments of those invoices and Cass information systems financial holding company that does this owns a commercial bank, Cass commercial Um, so that's three entity three players. You just mentioned right there, right? You have pay Bank and information. Well, I haven't I haven't put pay in yet. So okay, so but the that's how cast was before Cass pay and If you think about we're in these different expense categories and we want to process more payments because payments, processing generates balances for the bank to loan. So instead of going to get into another expense category because each expense category has a lot of extra work you have to do to make that a valuable process, otherwise it's just general AP outsourcing. And Adding all those layers gets you further and further away from core financial and banking solutions. So, the thought was, with the explosion of FinTech, why don't we take the payment solution that we provide to ourselves, the invoice processing, and offer that to other FinTechs, and that's Cass pay. So Cass Pay is the layer between FinTechs and the bank that understands what FinTechs need and can translate that to what the bank needs to make the whole thing flow. So you're a bit like an Intel chip for FinTech, what what are outwardly FinTech companies that need a banking piece behind their software? Is that fair? That's a fair, that's a fair way. And again, you know, I tell a lot of people this, I mean, we're not, we don't, Yeah, cash pay is just it's it we're we are a We're the plumbing where the utilities were behind the scenes. We don't make the users of the FinTech want to use the FinTech we make The FinTech's Payment portion of that work Got it. So let me pull that apart a little bit and tell me where I fall off. Okay, so if I heard you correctly you have what? You had two components, which was you had a bank which was Cass and then you have another component called Cass information systems and prior to Cass pay you had bank and information systems and really what that was was the marriage of the benefits of a bank which is a counseling ability to move money and information systems was a technology car to a degree and I know I've got some of this wrong but you had these two components of a bank and technology that could work together to help your customers clients in the bill pay right so you could take you could take technology and augment the augment what a bank could mean to your customers as far as moving money around having bills paid and things like that now I think as far as like hierarchy of ownerships and so forth I probably have that wrong but are in timing and so forth but is it is it fair to say you had these two components and then FinTech comes along and you're like well this is beautiful because we already have what we already have what FinTechs are doing just slightly more manual so Cass Pay is what's making those to the bank and information systems more of a current digital solution. Is that fair? - I would say it differently. And check me if you think I'm wrong here, but so Cass, Information Systems, actually our mutual friend, Bob Solomon, I believe wrote a blog on one of the companies that you need to know of that is the worst at marketing. So people don't know who we are and we're not good at, they do in the certain spaces we play, but we're not really, haven't been great at telling our story, but Cass information systems, I mean started in the 50s processing invoices, but really when we went to computer systems in the 80s and then reports and then online reporting, before the word fintech even existed, Cass information systems was a fintech. It was integrated to corporations, ERP systems, or TMS systems, and then processes invoices for them, GL codes, audits, produces information back to them to feed their data warehouses, or business intelligence, or whatever, I don't know the Data Lake, I don't know the terms now, but have been doing that before that term existed. I mean, some of the solutions that Cass Pay offers today is to direct competitors of Cass Pay information systems. So we have FinTechs that knew how to use a bank internally, and Cass pay was really exposing what we did internally to third parties. So what we were already doing for ourselves that we refined since the 50s, so we are a fintech, we are a fintech enabler, Cass pay, and we are a bank. And because we use our solution we know what the market needs right and one of the thing just interesting because I talk about cast embedded finance supply chain finance in the late 80s I believe certainly so my first job at cast was to come in 2001 and we collect money from people who have to pay bills at the time That the bills do so let's say there's a 90 -day terms. We collect money. Let's just say day 87 and pay on day 90 but we generate balances through processing and In the I'll say I'll say early 90s to be safe We started offering to suppliers the ability for us to pay them When the bills processed versus when They were going to get get paid by their, by their customer and we took a discount on that. So we didn't, we, we call that factoring. Well, we called it, no, so we don't purchase the receivable, but we, we called it expedite, but I'd call it supply chain finance or. So you were actually lending. Yeah. It's on our balance sheet. We front the money and then. Versus a factor. It was a lend. Uh, I mean, there's technicality said factoring, you'd usually purchase a receivable. But the long story short is years later supply chain finance becomes a huge thing and it's like, well, man, we were doing that in the nineties and we didn't even think of that as a solution outside of, I mean, it's beautiful though, because it's embedded in a process that we control. Yeah. It's like, it's a bit like AI to a degree, which is, we just always call that like logic or something. And you're like, "Well, wow, we were doing that a long time ago. It's just now called this now." - Yeah. - Sort of thing. - And that's what I'm saying when you said, Cass Information Systems is a fintech, really. I mean, if you think of, I mean, our competitors are Trax Technologies, which sells as a fintech, I mean, Conservice in the utility space. I mean, companies that are considered fintechs are are competitors on the one side and they all use banks for payment processing and then we just happen to compete with them in the fintech side support the middleware for the fintech to talk to the bank and own the bank okay so it's probably fair to say the Cass pay is then just a kind of this you guys are getting in line with the digital evolution or how people want to pay bills now and how they want to move money now. This is an offering that you guys got. We're already doing this. Let's just package this up in a certain way that makes it easier to integrate with current -day fintech solutions and so forth. Yeah. Because my contention would be that what banks can do and can't do hasn't changed largely. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. It's every bank can send an ACH. The question is, can every bank collect money for multiple parties, subledger it in a way that there's a control to make sure that it can't be spent for the wrong purpose, send it out, manage anything that happens along the way and reconcile all of that such that a FinTech doesn't have to go pull 800 reports and their bank can make a bunch of phone calls. - Okay, so let me pull this apart, 'cause this is actually really, if you haven't spent a lot of time with this, you and I have spent a lot of time with this. - I spent a couple days. - So, what would be in your mind, let's talk about fintech, let's put a drill down on what that actually is. We know it's financial technology, but what would be in your mind the simplest fintech thing that can occur meaning like what is just saying you know like is Venmo a very simple example of FinTech? I mean so when when people when I try to explain to FinTech I do say because nobody most people don't know the average you know world you have to so I Venmo is the example and I say you know how when you send Venmo money that goes to your Venmo account. Yeah well that account sits at a bank in an FBO account and Venmo has sub -ledgering to know these wallets but that money sits in an FBO at-- So sub -ledgering meaning that when the money goes from account A to account B, every user like as a recipient on Venmo, I have my own parking space for that money And you have your own parking space is in a giant bank account, but we each have our own parking space correct Okay for that money which get it all gets even more interesting really because at the end of the day all bank accounts Just roll up to one giant bank account, which is the bank That's always an interesting it, but this is a on the core the core of the bank. There is an account that has call it in Venmo two billion dollars, But Venmo has a ledger that has a lot of accounts in their system that has a breakdown of that two billion and how it relates to each person that's in their system. I didn't realize that banks were literally one bank account. Well, at the end of the day, there's one account at the Fed. And I mean, so, I mean, think of this, when you, when you give money to a bank, they don't, In their system, they have it in separate buckets, but they don't have that money Like in a place at the bank. It's just at the end of the day the bank pool I mean, it's not like everyone has their own ball in the bank think of this you take you take Let's just use a consumer you take Let's just say 50 consumer deposit accounts and you create one mortgage Obviously, you know, they're pulling them. They're pulling that money anyway the core The bank account that you see online not through a fintech, but the bank account that you see online at the bank is Just the bank sub ledger really of their one big account Because a bank pools all of its money it sends some to the Fed for overnight rates It doesn't generate or just as assets, but it doesn't just keep your money or it would not make money. - So, circling back to, so is Venmo, do you think, when I look at Venmo and use it, you know, leveraging something like Cass pay, that's something we could probably build like this week. Like that's a very, it's a well done app, it's a very simple maneuver that's occurring. I mean, peer to peer, like one to one. What is the next complicated tier that people might be, like another example of like, okay, that's peer to peer, like being from, paying from you to me. That's pretty straightforward. - Well, so let me, so, okay. The money, hopefully this doesn't offend tech people, but I say this all the time. In FinTech, the tech isn't the payments and the tech part of the payments isn't hard the hard every okay I've talked to a lot of early stage fintechs that came up with a great idea I can't come up with one right now that they have but a great idea on how they could solve a problem and they're going to solve this problem through technology and I talked to them like the problem's never been technology in this one The problem is regulatory and all the things that you have to do to be compliant to make this work and all of the add ons and features and functionality and then the real secret of the fintechs. I mean, okay, so from a look fintechs have to use banks to move the money. So fintechs cannot do anything that a bank can't do and they can't even move the money. So what FinTechs have to do is take verticals or slivers of problems that banks haven't solved yet on top of the bank. And now again, this is FinTechs in payments. Not, I mean, there's all sorts of FinTech, but they have to take the solutions that the banks have that haven't been, I'll say optimized and optimize those in a, typically in a, let's say a vertical like steel. I mean, and again, payments is not, in my mind, payments is the plumbing for what you do, but it's not why people use you. They don't care, it just has to work. It's infrastructure. - It's a prerequisite. - Right, so, Fin, so again, the payments part of the FinTech It's not the hard part what I'm saying with Venmo is Venmo's hard part is I'm assuming They're I don't know but I'm assuming they have a money transmission license They've got to keep complying and I think 49 of the 50 states and some territories You think they have or do you think they're more like stripe where they're connected there? They're an iso of a bank I Don't know but even stripe their money is fargo. It's got to be somewhere, to be somewhere, right? It's at a bank. - They're Wells Fargo. - And I'm assuming it's in a couple multiple FBO accounts, but I'm assuming it's not on their balance sheet. I don't know that for a fact. - No, they, it's Wells Fargo that sits behind them. Similarly to how CAS sits behind, you know, either, you know, whatever fintech solution's been created. But I don't know, I don't know about Venmod. I don't know if they are their own bank, if they have their own ability to, if they have their own licenses to move, move money or not. I don't really know. Yeah, I suspect they, if you're touching that many consumers, I would suspect they do. But again, I don't know that for a fact. Um, but I mean, as I think about, I mean, doxo, a customer, actually, would they need a license Venmo? Um, I, depending on how they've structured it, they may or may not. When you're touching that many consumers and you're doing wallets like that, like it's not just kind of flow through, I would think they would want it anyway. It's almost like... Yeah, it'll be like the biggest wandering platform on the planet. I mean, it's not for that. I mean, it's not for that. I'm just saying, there's one of those like, Let's say once you get to a certain size in spaces like that, you don't want to outsource your compliance to a bank. And now they all have their own compliance. I'm just saying it's a little... Now there are other downsides to having your money transmission license, which is some banks don't bank people with those. But I mean, obviously people People be willing to add compliance people for it to get Venmo's an account. So But anyway to the point of what's the harder things. I mean, it's the structuring It's the legal. It's the regulatory It's not creating a notch a file Mm -hmm, but it's it's and it's knowing that hey if I debit somebody there's a two -day return period for business and you know the timing I mean I know you've told me stories about what people tell you and I'm like well that's not the it's actually not the regulation on how certain companies maybe hold on to money for periods and it's knowing what can and can't be done what creates risk what doesn't ways to protect the ways to think about it real fast I said I'm the middle piece one of the things that we do that's great is we can, in a lot of business, and this is why being in an industry to solve that problem, in a lot of businesses, it's the translation that makes things happen or not happen. So when I can understand what a fintech needs, which I know because I worked in a fintech for X number of years and looked at other fintechs to acquire, And I know what a bank needs to hear to say yes. And I know what I can explain to a fintech, hey, there's a two day hold period on B2B debits. And I know we're gonna be doing about five million a day for you. And it's spread across lots of customers. So the highest average debit is 200 and you want to release the money prior to two days, I can convince the bank with the $500 ,000 reserve by explaining all this to them that we've got multiple returns covered, I can show the history, and I can get the bank comfortable and create a solution for you. And that has nothing to do with technology. That has to do with being able to interpret two sides and creating a solution for both to get past the hurdles that you would see at. I mean, one of the things that makes it really easy for us, at least right now, is banks are hard to work with and we're not because we are a fintech who owns a bank. - Why are banks hard to work with? - I mean, really, I think on, so it's an interesting thing. I'm working on a LinkedIn. I've got a guy that does LinkedIn work for me does He interviews me and puts out content and one of the ones he's got right now. He's talking about We were talking about how we're a small bank like 2 .4 billion in assets and yet we make a hundred billion in payments and We're talking it's interesting in banking a deposit is a liability and a loan is an asset and banks make most of their money lending and so they're what they're selling is money and this is I don't this is all what I think this isn't I've not read this but they're selling money. So when somebody comes and says hey I want you to sell me money, the position is that the person with the money kind of is in the power position. So banks traditionally, when they're selling money and people need money, their approach to sales many times is a lot more, you need me more than I need you. So Banks get kind of lazy because people come to them and ask for money and that's what they're selling. So, and the guys who sell money in most banks make the most money. In the world of FinTech, it's all treasury. And treasury's just kind of, I see it at many banks as The need to have it's kind of back office. They don't get in front of the customer. They're just kind of behind the scenes so FinTechs Banks won't loan them money most that I work with the least when we started because they're Early -stage losing money raising money They don't even they don't They don't solve problems. They sell money and have some treasury solutions that they purchased off the shelf from FIS or FIServ. I mean, there's, obviously there's big banks that have their own, but I just think it's a culture of people come to them asking them for money so they don't have to do a lot to, I mean, again, my thoughts of why. Well, I've heard many stories and I've worked with some banks. I've heard many, many, many stories of just six, nine months, 12 months, and I had a customer, they were working 12 months with the bank and came to us and said, we've been trying for 12 months, we can't even get the contract done, we have to get up in a month, can you do this for us? And we were like, we weren't positive if we could do it, but we said, I mean, in two months we can, but anyway, we got the contract done and implemented a system with custom requirements, code, in a month? - Well, you know our story of how we met. And basically, we got put together after I've been searching for, I'm about to agree with everything you just said, by the way, which is, you know, I've been searching for probably over half of a year, I would say, looking for nationwide. I was just looking for a bank that had any sort of technology that we could build our FinTech around, right? And so I was out in California looking for that solution. I was everywhere. And to find out that it's actually in St. Louis, you know, 10 minutes from my door is crazy. But what I really loved when And it was clear pretty early in our meeting, that first meeting at CAS, because we were at the whiteboard within minutes, and you're the only person that wasn't like, "No, we can't do that." You were like, "Let me find out," because it's not that you're indifferent about it, but you genuinely were interested in like, "Oh, this is unique. These guys understand their domain, the metals industry really well. I totally get they've got this they've got to build this fintech solution it was so refreshing not to walk into a room full of no we can't do that or it's gonna cost just some extremely stupid like stupid number just because you could and it's not that I couldn't find that I that I couldn't find we're looking for but it was prohibitively expensive that it was just ridiculous and we passed on them we're like well we'll figure something else out other than that because it kills the model entirely now I'm not saying you guys are over there just gives us a great solutions you're not saying this is free but you are also mindful of like it's got to work within the revenue model of the of the company that's sitting in front of you for it to be a solution yeah It's funny. I was on a call with a guy and he's telling me what they need and what he needs is he's like describing an FBO account And then he's like and it can't be an FBO account And I'm like man, I've racked in my brain like what else what other solution can we do for this guy? I'm like, let me just ask you why can't it be an FBO account because I'm thinking he got some compliance guidelines or whatever, something that-- - Some rules somewhere. - Something, yeah, some reason he can't, he's like, 'cause they're too expensive and they take too long. I said, well, what if I didn't charge you for it and we could literally, I mean, if it's just the FBO account, now we need an integration, but I could get the FBO account up today if you got the paperwork in and it's free. Now don't get me wrong if I integrate with you and we're gonna do processing I'll have some non prohibitive monthly fee that many times starts out with You know first six months no charge and then just some small incremental just to make sure that we get something for it, but He's like yeah, that would be great. I was hearing 10 ,000 a month and You know months to set it up. Um, which I, to this day, there's things I, I don't understand, but I don't understand why it's so hard on the, on the other side, the other banks, but I, the more I'm in this, the more I'm learning, it's the fact that because, Because we have been doing it for ourselves for so long, and have looked at tons of different models to get into, we understand where the risk is. And we understand the businesses we're selling to. When I've been in situations where I'm talking to somebody and it's just not clear in my head what their business is. I just don't understand their business. I never feel safe until I get what you do. Now that I get what you do, I can explain it into terms that the bank would understand to make them comfortable. So I really think it gets into just, I think at the other banks, it's a lot of layers of people that don't understand what their customers doing, so they're scared of it. So nobody wants to say yes, but nobody wants to kill it because fintech's hot and I need to bring on fintechs, but there's just this lack of understanding. So it has to go to lots of places for somebody to say yes, because nobody can truly just say, there's no risk. The money's protected. We're only paying with good funds. It's steel trading. There's no lending in it. I mean, using your example, Or here's where the risk could be but here's why it's all protected so Advancing this a little bit. I think we can say Without being completely full of it that we were creating a BMPL before BMPL is BMPL which is by now pay later. It was a couple years later when be it being maybe somewhere in some corner. It was called BNPL already. But it used to be called like invoice financing, you know, with the idea of a digital transaction where a buyer could have credit and check out now and pay 30 days later, right? And then somebody's got to absorb that credit risk and so forth. And the movement of money that goes with that. So you guys were never saying we'll take the credit risk, but we were helping with the movement of the funds. And so we're working on that. And you've had a front row seat in a lot of ways too. I'll say 2020 is when BNPL was a word that I started, or an acronym that I started hearing a lot. You've watched the evolution of BNPL. And I was wanting to gather your thoughts on BNPL. Like what do you think about NPL well if you wanted the truth on the yeah they're like affirms and you know the ones at the register I don't even understand them I mean I understand them they front the money I think you pay the first 25 % and then you pay is a firm more of a B2C solution yeah so that's that's how that's where the term got popular but and I don't because I don't understand unless they give you a better rate than a credit card. I don't get why or unless they'd sorry it would take people that wouldn't wouldn't qualify for a credit card. I don't understand why a credit card I don't understand what that what that solved but but it's popular I just haven't dug into it And candidly, I think of BNPL as a consumer play, and I think the consumer company's valuations got so hot that anybody that did it became now BNPL 'cause they wanted to chase that word, which by the way is not as popular because now-- - So much value's been lost at this point. - Well, the regulatory portion of making, or not making, but allowing consumers to buy things they can't afford, you know, again, I don't know if it was a workaround of credit card underwriting and the underwrite, I don't know, anyway, but whatever you call it, the constant want of buyers today to extend their terms, to optimize working capital, is going to continue to create a gap for suppliers that banks and or any kind of financing platform can fill that void. And unless we go back to like cash on delivery, it's definitely going to be there. Well, So, are you saying that BNPL has its place in supply chain financing? Is that what you're saying or you're saying that it doesn't? Okay, so I've had many conversations with people on supply chain finance. I mean, there's so many terms and my opinion they're they're used the wrong way but now everything's gotten in like net terms basically well everything so like okay so supply chain fine okay let's just say it's my definition of supply chain finance is a buyer guarantees a lender that if they make a payment that they will fund it at the due date, and for that the lender will send money to the seller early for a discount at a rate that is close to the buyer's credit rating. And credit rating arbitrage is created because the supplier's credit rating is worse than the buyer's and everybody wins. The bank creates a loan, the buyer gets extended terms with their supplier and the supplier gets money for cheaper than they could have gotten originally. All right, that's supply chain finance. - Is that the correct definition? - I mean, I don't know what correct is 'cause it was a thing that was made up that was that, that became lots of things. - Okay. - But if you go to-- - Like the word marketplace is what it means. - Like if you go to Citibank and say, "Can I speak to your supply chain finance department?" They'll say what, but if you got to that department, that's what they're selling. Then they have an invoice factoring department, receivables. - The same bank? - Yeah, cities got receivables, so they go to sellers without the buyer and say I'll purchase that receivable for a discount. Now that's more expensive financing because it's not guaranteed that it's gonna get paid. The other one, They're usually doing the payment processing for them as well. Is that is do you happen to know? What's the recourse on that factoring, but so you can have recourse and non -recourse most Factoring well non -recourse obviously is more expensive than recourse So it's a factoring that I mean there's all there's there's you can make any kind of deal you want and recourse meaning so everyone's on the same same page meaning that if a seller goes to city and says hey we'd like to get between us and her buyers meaning that we want you to pay us early and then you go take it up with the buyer but the buyer is gonna pay you and you pay us 90 % and you guys keep 10 % for your trouble but the recourse meaning that if that buyer ends up not paying, the bank can go back to that seller and say you owe us the rest of this money. Correct. Okay. Yeah. And then dynamic discounting. And dynamic discounting is typically where a platform allows a, I mean, 210 net 30 was not dynamic, but old school, I mean, or steel people should know 210 .30, right? I mean, dynamic discounting is just a dynamic version of that where the platform allows it to happen dynamically, but it's funded by the buyer's balance sheet so that they keep the majority of the discount. So they're using their working capital to get a return by paying early. - So for Everyone's benefit. What is 210 that 30 to 210 that 30 I used to implement ERP systems And this is a good story, but to 10 that 30 what it means is you get a 2 % discount So if I owe you a hundred dollars, I can pay you 98 if I pay you in 10 days But if I don't pay you in 10 days for that discount, I owe you that money on day 30 in the ERP world and that's It's a very traditional discount for paper invoicing. Yeah, yeah. And in the ERP world, my first job-- remember implementing a system in 1999. And I learned that 210 net 30 was like 217 net 45 in their system. And the reason is, is what they do is they set these terms up, and then they keep pushing them a day, a day, a day until they get too many phone calls and they move it back a day and that's where they land. So I found that. - That's so funny you say that 'cause I've talked about the idea for payment terms. Why is it in that 30 or not 45? It's the same reason the pitchers mound is 60 feet, six inches, 'cause at one point maybe it was 60 feet. They're like, well, that's a little fucking close and then they added 62 feet they're like oh my god they're crushing the ball and so you just sort of over time net 30 sounds like a nice round convenient number but it's also kind of the right amount of time for materials to ship somewhere it gives the receiver enough time to look at them and make sure that everything is ship shape and everything in time for it to get to accounting and for accounting to confirm that's been received correctly so net 30 ends up being sort of this magic number but it's on the other yeah but then on the other side right the suppliers like I don't want to bug people on day 31 I'm gonna set up a my system a tickler that something at 38 is when I need to reach out to go try to collect or whatever whatever the day they put on there so you're trying to figure out they're of when people pay their bills? - Well, the, when the payer is trying to figure out what the receiver system is set up to do a collection call. So how late can I pay them without them caring? - Right, and do I care when they care? - What's that? - And do I care when they care? - Well, hopefully, hopefully, I mean, hopefully that's the-- - Well, hopefully, Yeah, but that's the other thing is like That's the others that's sort of the problem with BNPL to a degree, which is When when a buyer has got a whole slew of invoices they need to pay They're gonna pay certain ones first every single time like maybe they're their most The you know that that distributor they buy from it's kind of like your mortgage you're gonna pay your mortgage you're gonna pay there's I would say only if you are strapped for cash and your AP processing is you know as we get to more automated AP prop okay what you really want to do is have instant visibility to your AP what you have to pay and then manage each of those payments optimally, assuming you have cash. Meaning I'm not going to pay this invoice first to my big supplier because it's a big invoice and I have enough money to pay everything so I'm not worried. I actually want to pay that invoice as late as I can getting in trouble unless, unless I can do something with that invoice offer something where I can make a dime or offer to that supplier. So here's the thing, you're saying something and just popped in my head was every company wants to reduce their DSO. What's DSO? Oh, days, days sale, You asked me a tough one, days sales outstanding. So how long it takes you to collect a payment from a sale and every company wants to extend their DPO, which is days payables outstanding. So when one does one, it's not, I mean, one pulls the other, there's no way to do this. The only way to do this Is to insert BNPL Supply chain finance it solves for that fact that without an intermediary the two can never Accomplish what they're both trying to accomplish and it's interesting because the same cut the same cup I mean, we I love the ones where the meaning someone's got to step in and take a credit risk Yeah, because they're they're trying to pull apart something that has to go like this Like buyer seller wants to be paid now and buyer wants to pay much later Yeah, I mean something's got to fill the gap the auto parts industry. Is that what you're saying is what I'm asking? Yes Yes, like auto stores It's like I believe most of them pay in 365 days. It's basically vendor managed inventory There's a ton of supply chain financing there because the suppliers don't want to wait 365 But so you that's I mean, but at the end and there's something about if it gets over that it becomes something else I don't know, but I mean it just makes sure it's a balance sheet Now let me finish my thought real quick I'm not good at letting people finish thoughts. Don't worry about it. I'll I hold on to it So the idea was that the partner one of the challenges with BNPL and underwriting of I'll talk to supply chain only is that a really good buyer who pays like clockwork you may underwrite them and say yeah here's all the money you need to make any purchases you want but what you can't underwrite for is that maybe that buyer is not getting paid I mean they got plenty of cash on hand the buyer does but buyers tend to silo their payables meaning that if the inflow of money for a certain project hasn't come in, many of them aren't just still gonna pay that vendor. They're gonna say, well, when this deal's going sideways, like downstream from that guy, downstream from us or whomever it is, they may not be inclined to pay that seller because they haven't gotten paid yet and they don't wanna come out of pocket to do that 'cause now they're holding a credit risk they don't wanna hold, right? So, the problem with BMPL is you're never going to have really visibility into this full supply chain of financing or who the players are in that supply chain. Yeah. So, that's sort of this trap door or Achilles heel of quickly trying to underwrite these businesses is that you have no idea what is downstream from the transaction that you are holding holding risk for just sort of this one instance. So that's sort of an Achilles heel for BMPL underwriting. I don't know how you manage it. What say you? - I mean, a couple of things. One is there, it'll be a long way probably, but I don't even know. I don't know if blockchain was trying to get there, but there was the whole trying to have visibility to the whole supply chain. I don't know where that is nowadays. I'm not as much in supply chain as I was, but I don't know if this is your industry, but I'm not aware of a lot of companies that don't pay their suppliers because one of the people they sold to didn't pay them. They're usually, I mean, so it's interesting that you're saying that most of these are, most of these companies, or I'm thinking of bigger companies, I guess, where the sales is so far removed from Purchasing that those two processes are so far apart. They wouldn't even know how to match the stuff off So I don't know if you're talking more like SMB market because I don't know how again big companies won't know It's very dependent. I think that buyers like to pay their bills in general meaning that to run a good business and supply chain It's better be to be known for paying your bills than not paying your bills Yeah, and I think that at all costs people want to pay their bills but if something is happening downstream that makes it clear that this whole chain of transactions is getting like someone way downstream isn't doing anything and the whole thing's about to unravel I think it's going to give people pause as to how reactive they are to paying that bill but it just it depends on I think that if that seller typically if their Seller the one who's holding the money if the seller calls and says hey, we need to pay this They'll probably do it But like you were talking about stretching it out when they see sort of something forming kind of a storm forming downstream They may be inclined back. Let's just see. It's just hold tight for a sec. I would just up to me That's very industry -specific because I'm thinking Ford They've never told us that a dealer urgent fund them so don't pay this carrier yeah they wouldn't and but what's what are Ford's terms how many days do they get well it would be proprietary but it's more than 30 you know and so so I was gonna say this is an interesting thing because you said in supply chain and I don't know on Ford specific but when the It's a very interesting thing Transportation is very cyclical Rates go up a lot of entrance in the market. There's at one time. I believe there were a million DOT what you know class 8 I think I have no idea Yeah, I don't really they're big rig trucks, big trucks out there, let's say a million companies registered to be able to be a trucking company because an owner, you could buy a truck and you become a trucker in a trucking company. And when rates go up, a lot of people go off on their own to do this. And when rates go down, a lot of those guys fail. And some Some companies take the approach of we're gonna beat them up when we can beat them up and some companies take the approach of treating them Good to steady in both times good and bad and when it turns around and The trucking company so in the in the rising rates the trucking companies have the power because There's not it. There's more support there's more demand than supply they treat the ones that treated them good way better than and terms as part of that so some companies think a competitive advantage to keep their supply chain rolling they're good to be to get the carriers whenever they need them is to keep the terms slow so some companies have a strategy of kind of what you said short terms creates a stronger supply chain because when times get tough they're gonna service me because I've treated them fair the whole time. Maybe it depends. I mean it depends I mean but seeing some. Yeah well I mean I you know I know enough about freight to be dangerous but I can't speak to that with any real, real knowledge. But I would say that, you know, in downturns, it seems in the metals industry, the way I like to describe it, you know, a seller, when things are good, will sell to their kids and their kids' friends. When times, when the market gets more difficult, they'll only sell to their kids. Right. I mean, but their kids are the ones that, in business, I'd It treated them good always, right? - Yeah, they're the ones that buy a lot of tons and they pay on time. - So we're kind of saying the same thing, the ones that they're important. - They're bread and butter. - Yeah, in the accounts, I mean, you know, again, I've dealt with a and five hundred in my life and I it's not I don't like it and there's but it was refreshing there there were there's two types there's ones that want you to always believe you're at risk of losing the business and that's not fun and then there's the ones that let you know you're doing a good job but it's less that they let you know you're doing a good job job, less of those out there than the ones that want to kind of keep the pressure on and make you think you need to reduce your prices and things of that nature. The ones that let you know you're doing a good job, I've watched it throughout my life. The way that they're serviced by the people in the organization is like people will bend over backwards for them. And the ones that do the other thing, you do as little as you can 'cause you don't even wanna be noticed because anything you do is wrong. I mean, so just two companies. One company, I used to work in parcel FedEx, UPS. One company, if I found something in the data that they could save money with, I would let them know, and they would be very grateful. The other company, I did it one time, and they said, "Why didn't I find this earlier?" And it wasn't part of what we did as a service, so I couldn't do it again because even telling them something to help them came back at me, or the other one. So the amount that, what you get, just when you said the supply chain, what you get for treating your vendors well by paying them a fair amount but not beating them up on price, by treating them like a partner as you get, it pays way more than what you could save. And one thing that I think has helped me a lot in my life is I've been on both sides sales and purchasing so I know what both sides want and if you do it and I know what you get by doing it the way that is good for both sides and You get way more than what you can save Yeah, see this so changing gears so a cas pay which wouldn't a cas pay Officially start so I mean - well we had a we had a customer like 2010 that we did this one -off thing for and Just we just thought it was a one -off and when I get in when I got into a role of Corporate Development, M &A, and realized we probably weren't going to do it through that, and that CASPAY was a better idea. I looked at what we did for that company, and then I saw a few things in the market, and decided there was an opportunity. So in 2016, but it was called Integrated Financial Solutions at the time, and name I made up, and but that-- - Is that IFS? - Yeah, IFS, Yeah, so that was the genesis of I think cast pay it officially. I think 2021 but 2016 is when you know, Akira When Akira came over and we started building our first Payment solution for a company. That's a still customer Different than the one that was kind of this one off, but that's you know, is that the universal payment engine? I mean it yeah, because we needed the URL I remember Kira like I need a name and he said, or I'll call it like, like a cure is wonderful engine. He had some funny name and I'm like, okay, well, universal payment engine. Yeah. Well, so now you have CASPE officially. So when, when did it, when was it coined? When, when did you guys, I think 2021 I'm not positive. Okay. I mean, IFS had its own PNL in 2016. Yeah. So, But so today you guys have Caspay, and what is out in the market, I mean, your job amongst others is to find companies that are really compatible that you guys offer. And I know that you like creating solutions and really, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you don't love the ho home you know you like sitting down and figuring out how can we do this so right now what what sort of what sort of things are you looking for in the market like every every day you get up and you're trying to create an opportunity for cash pay what are you after it's interesting so in 2016 ish 2016 -ish Like when we add to this ask another way what companies do you think that you can help most or be a best solution for all right? So in 2016 ish It was an idea we didn't have Any customers, but we had a really good story of why we could do it And I got a list of a bunch of fintechs. It was actually from Bob Solomon. And I cold called a bunch of them to try to figure out if they needed a bank to do stuff. - Did you enjoy that cold calling process? - I don't mind it, you know. So, okay, I could never cold call to say, I've got XYZ product, do you need it? But I have no problem cold calling a company to see if I have a solution that may help them and what they need and see if there's something I can do with what we know to do that. Because I'm not, to me it's not a cold call, it's information gathering. I'm not trying I mean, well, you were on one of the phone calls with the person I was debating on, they're like talking about me being a salesperson. And I'm like, I don't sell anything. - It's pretty great that you just, you don't, you're like, hey, here's what we do, you know. - Or more, it's actually more, so I start every call with like. - What do you do? - Yeah, I do, I start every call with, so we do a bunch of different stuff. I don't want to tell you it because I don't want to know what you do to see what we do that you, because I could, what does cast do out? I mean, we do church lending, but that's probably not what you're talking to me about. We can process your freight bills, but you're a fintech. I know that you're talking to me about fintech, but we do wires, check, ACH, ICL, what do you do? What's your problem? And I'll tell you if we're a fit for that problem. So when I'm cold calling it's I'm information gathering to see what do you in your market need so to me I'm not you're more diagnostic to a degree But I but I absolutely don't want to call you and tell you I have a solution for you You know, whatever I mean the cold the cold calls you get where salespersons going through a script And they don't even know what you do like I could I could never do that But that's hard work. Well, it's Well, it's It's dumb work. It's not effective. It's it's Not precise. I mean if they spent I mean measure twice cut once if they spent more time researching who they're gonna call They don't want to have to make cold calls It's a I know your company. I know what you guys are kind of doing I think what I have here might be a fit for you. Let me figure that out, but I've got actually something for you, not, I mean, I got to call the other day, like, hey, and they go so fast, they're trying to sell me some PGA tour thing in St. Louis, I'm like, one, I have no customers in St. Louis, two, I don't have enough customers to get who could come to St. Louis to fill a gala thing with 50, I mean, calling me to go through five minutes of something that's not even relevant to me before I can cut them off it's that's they could spend how did that call in I think I just had to tell them that the I have no interest I have to you know I have to go you told me you're playing that day yeah no but the I suck at golf but the I mean my point is I just truly believe if we spent more time So okay, think about this that this was my argument with with the person that we talked to is I'm not trying to sell something so I can make money I Am trying to solve a problem for you So that we can create value that I get a piece of Because if I sell you something that doesn't help us create value, it's not sustainable. I'm looking for sustainability Right, which is why you're not script, you know barking a scripted people I mean, I did a LinkedIn thing on that. I don't have a PowerPoint How long would it take you to write a PowerPoint do you think you're good at a lot of things. I just can't imagine you write a power point, but so why won't I do a power point? Well, because one, why do I need to go through it? Okay, it's almost in B2B sales, not in a marketplace, I don't think, but in B2B sales, every sale has usually one, but at least one thing that's unique. And the PowerPoint is just saying you can do, the PowerPoint can only say I can do what everybody else can do. But what you need is for me to solve your one unique thing. And I can't waste your time going through a PowerPoint to figure out, 'cause I have to figure out that thing. And so up to, I mean-- - Meaning like there's no way you could possibly include that one random idiosyncratic thing that is specific to that one vertical or that one business. Meaning like, you could write 20 pages and not mention the one thing they're looking for. - We need to be looking, okay, so-- - They need to write Yeah, so you can so you need to do like a differential diagnosis. Like this is like fintech health services I Mean that's something like I mean it but it should be it should be in every sale I mean The I don't know if I don't know if one of the famous sales guys said this or but I've heard this before I didn't make this up but but when people say you could sell ice to an Eskimo it's like no I absolutely could not I would explain to them why they shouldn't buy it right you guys seem to have plenty of ice here yeah you don't need this yeah because by the way I yeah for so many reasons I would I couldn't thought about that before sure it makes more sense I guess yeah you could sell them something they don't need like you're so you're so good at sales You could sell somebody somebody something that they absolutely don't need major surplus and to me It's like that's not that's that's a con man. That's not a salesperson or Or somebody doesn't understand you or the person not a partner the the Eskimo in question was not terribly savvy It's not a partner. It's not so It's the what so Let me keep going to your your original question. So what are we looking for or what type of FinTech or business? Can you help most? Right. So so what I'm Where I'm heading here is so Anyway, I haven't picked up the phone in About seven years And this is another funny one all the people anyone, all the people that send me the things that they're gonna help me increase my sales and this and that. Like, we know that you have a sales thing. It's like, yeah, my sales problem is that I can't even, I can't go out because there's so many opportunities coming in, but the, what we do is we talk to people about what they need and then we find either inside of us or outside of us solutions that we can put onto our solution and then we let, it's a very, you know this industry is very everybody knows everybody. So and then we let people know, you know, it gets spread and stuff coming to try and answer your question. The answer is up until recently, I've always wondered where the hell I'm going to get the next deal. I there's no you. So in freight sales, where I was in, It's like the global 3000 in a space that has freight. So probably not financial services, but any manufacturer, any distributor, any retailer, they all have freight. So you know who to call and you know the position to call. Vice President of Logistics, whatever. There's no way to figure out FinTechs that make payments. That's there's no, that's there's Google that. It's not a thing. You'll get a bunch of payments providers. So I don't know. I just know that there's I was always worried where we're where the next one's gonna be They keep coming. They keep there's needs for it I mean so all I say is we do we do B2B B2C and C2B. We don't do consumer We don't do consumer wallets but anything and it's like Legal services is what was that one. I mean, our PPS, we do a bunch with MasterCard, and there's all sorts of things. There's consumer bill pay left and right. There's small business platforms. There's AP optimization. There's healthcare payment networks. There's other freight audit and payment companies, there's other telecom expense management. It's like, it's, the question is, is what's, I mean, there's embedded finance companies, and we know, we know about special purpose vehicles and Dockers and all the things that need to be done that if you did call a Bank to structure some of the things we're doing Unless you knew the person and you've done it before it could take you six to nine months to find all the people You need to talk to to do some of the structures mm -hmm Because it's spread across the bank because they're selling that but they're not using that we had to do All of this stuff so you're you're stable of talents already built out Internally or the partners that you have so when This right so I mean yeah, I mean so this real quick interesting one a guy calls me customer and he uses other banks for things and He asked me a question about an ACH thing. I gave him the answer and he's I'm like what did large bank say and um he said I didn't I didn't or he said they said blah blah blah blah which was kind of right but not exactly right and he said you he told me you guys can do so much more than this is one of the top five banks so much more than this bank I said you're so wrong we do so much less They can do so many more things than than us. They can actually do everything we can do plus some The problem is it's going to take you nine months to find the person that knows that there. He's like that's so true so but what I'm saying is we just so it their Economies of scale are real No, no startup should exist anymore. The reason they do is because The big if if you always have to grow, you're going to grow out of the things you're good at. And the people that see the gaps are going to fill them up, so cast bank shouldn't exist. It's tiny, none of these small, but they do something that the people that use them value because they do it better than what somebody who can do everything can do. So, Back to my question though, and I'm gonna hold you to Answering it, which is let me ask it differently. What when you're approached by businesses that need a solution What is the type of solution there the need you're seeing most and Which need are you generally most attracted to trying to solve? I mean Is it just a simple movement of money? Is it bill pay? I mean, what is it? Well, you said it earlier on something You you said something about we built the NPL and I was thinking we we did nothing we Open FBO accounts. We do a CH as we do wires We now there's some structures that we might put in it, but we don't we don't even calculate the discount we we can take a hundred dollars and send 99 one place and one the other and we know what you need but we don't do anything and we we're very my group we talk about it we we want to be dumb we don't want to make decisions we want to do what we're told and reconcile it yeah and give the people all the information they need to run it we don't want to make decisions so you're sort of like the you're like the switchboard mechanics but you still need to like something needs to tell you what to do right so you if we're gonna move it really good but we need to know everything okay so if there's if there are companies out there well let me ask this what what types of companies do you just cast pay tend to find itself yeah I mean and I'm just saying this because it's a steel marketplace. - And the reason I'm asking is because I think FinTech payments this whole world, if I mean, I've had the benefit of learning a lot about it through what we do and knowing you and Bob and all these other people, but in general FinTech is a black box and the idea of payment processing. So if you're somebody who's at the beginning of their journey of trying to solve this, you kind of, it's like which way is north? 'Cause there's so many things out there, especially now. And people are throwing all these, you know, you've got to have an MTL, KYC, which is kind of, like all of these acronyms are out there of things that you need to be mindful of if you're gonna if your business wants to go digital and Once to start be able to like accept, you know a check out on their page That's why I'm saying the technology is the problem they're gonna run into over time It's the same problem a lot of companies run into is when you get started You're gonna use one of these massive payment processors that we all know about, the PayPal stripes, etc. that are out there and then you're going to realize the timing of things and the cost of using these and you're going to buy and the lack of flexibility. Lack of flexibility and actually the simplicity of what's actually occurring and once you understand what's really going on and they're like well we want to build maybe our own payment rails And but we need to find certain partners to make that work because of all these certifications and licensees that are needed and is that is that the kind of Where you're finding companies they're at that inflection point of like we've been outsourcing But now we want to build our own solution. So on the I told you the LinkedIn interviews one of our one of the posts we did was talking about moving from some of these guys to us and that we call it graduation because you're you know we're we're they're giving you a box and we're giving you Lego blocks so you have to fit in their box with us you can here's all the Legos you build what you want You need to build a palace or a piece of shit. Yeah, but we don't build the box for you No, you're modular. Yeah, we're giving you the Legos So that is one set the Which we like but that's usually earlier stage guys and we've got some earlier stage guys do well the ones that I really like they're the ones that The are with pretty established and with other larger banks where they're just finally just Hands in the air. They're done with that or even I mean, I mean Or the bad I mean that or they're getting pressure from the bank where they're concerned that they're gonna have to leave soon because The bank from a regulatory standpoint and Compliance standpoint, they think they're very things. They don't know that they're very scared of and the big banks They have regulators that have permanent offices there. So yeah, the big banks They don't want to fight much they just want it to be Good, so I mean so they've gotten into some spaces, but they get out So we've had We've gotten a lot of people leaving some of the big banks because they're like, oh, we don't want to do FBO accounts anymore We don't do this kind of FBO account or or just the noise and the concern that the big banks are going to Not want the regulatory burden of things. They don't understand. Well, yeah so Is it fair to say for anyone's listening if they're if they're at this inflection point of you know be getting a little their their big bank is somehow getting restless and showing signs of we're not we're going to discontinue this program or if they're getting sort of tired of all the red tape or biocracy at a large one thing many of the bigger banks do or many banks do depending on the model is every time a new customers brought on they want to underwrite that customer or they want to run them through a KYC or something. So they can get in the way of your business where we and we have talked to the regulators. Things always change. But we look to the FinTech, who the FBO is for, for their BSA, for their these procedures, they're underwriting. And we approve that and we let them follow what we've all agreed to. We don't double check them. So we don't get in the way. Now we review that, but we don't double check them. So we even allow the FinTech to bring on customers faster. And we We know we can we've talked to the fed but we know we can because we own a fintech and We bring on and so cast information systems is a customer of cast commercial bank and We bring on customers without getting them underwritten and again, it's just for payment processing if we do Lending we do want it underwritten, but we We don't need, Cass Bank doesn't need to verify our customer 'cause they know the space we're in, what we do and what customers we have. So we know we can do that to FinTechs as well and not get in the way of them bringing on business. - Do you, now I know that I would expect that some of the integrations that Cass Pay is done with businesses, with tax or whoever happens to integrate maybe some of them want to kind of keep that under shelter and not know how their solution is being created but do is there pretty much listening if they want to get an idea of any sort of integrations or anything that you guys are powering is there anywhere that or they can at least go look up those companies in some way I mean yes so doxo is a customer of ours We're if you look in their website, it'll say somewhere cast commercial bank Because we're you know Certainly when you're dealing with consumers, you'll put You'll put who the bank is Where the money's going on on your website Somewhere viewpost as a customer of ours and somewhere on their website in one of the terms talks about that the money flows through I mean turn think Of the who I mean you make a point. I mean on our website. We have names of I mean ally payment networks is a customer of ours Course centrics on our website customer of ours. So It's a lot of names that people in the space know but if you're not in the space You probably aren't gonna know these names. Well, that's true of a lot of supply chain type of, you know, a lot of people don't think about in the consumer world, all of these, you know, like, jillions of businesses that are, you know, cranking every day that are doing things. So when I first started at Cass, it's a long, it's a funny story. My, my mom had an art company, my mom and dad. And they used to do home shows and then they moved to commercial and they got cast as a customer. And so my there were a couple new people that started at cast and there was a thing where if you were like an executive starting you could pick out a piece of art. So my mom showed she goes there just to work with the people to have their pieces of art picked out. And there was one guy who ran sales for freight audit and payment that was picking out art. And I was implementing ERP systems in freight and I wanted to get into sales and I didn't like consulting going on the road. So she talked to him and she's like, I don't even know what cast sells. I thought you were a bank 'cause that's what she thought of as cast bank from St. Louis. And he says, you know, freight audit and and she's like, "Oh, you should talk to my son." So anyway, she gets the resume. Next thing you know, I'm working at Cass. The point of the story is I didn't even, I didn't know who Cass information systems was, and I lived in St. Louis, and I had never heard of Cass Bank. So I'm like, I don't think, you know, I'm like, you know, I live in St. Louis, I don't know what this company is. I learned what we do. I did know a little bit about freight on payment 'cause my job at implementing ERP had the TMS portion and freight on payment was part of it. So, but now I start going on sales calls talking to all these people in logistics and they are talking about CAS as if we're like the most famous thing in the industry. So, because-- - Yeah, it's like people who know you and use your services are like, I'm not going anywhere else. - Well, I mean, I'm just saying we're like, I mean, in that Space were the big dog. I mean the cast freight index and I mean people know who we are in that space But I'm saying I live in st. Louis and I didn't even know who we we were until I got into that space What's annoying is that that building office building you guys have had out on power. It was a powers court Yeah, it's still there. Okay, so when I was searching for you guys Frank over half a year I was literally driving past your bit like it was just looking down on me that this solution was sitting right there so I'm gonna wrap us up and say I'm trying to get people kind of funneled to your page what is your web page where they can at least find the name so you can go check out maybe something about them is it like some ridiculous I wish I had my phone and I wanted to see if cast pay .com worked I think it might - I can check for you right now. - Yeah, see if it does. But somebody had that domain. I think we finally got it and it's redirected. That was a fun, interesting negotiation. - What is it, Cass? What? - I think casspay .com. But yeah, you know, at the end of the day... - It redirects to Cas info? - Yeah, but does it say caspay on the top? Yeah. So caspay .com, it'll redirect. But I mean all I would say is if you're looking for a banking solution for a fintech Like a many to many network We're an aggregator on both or either side I would think that cast pay would want to have the the company that's changing metal supply chain It's one of the companies listed. We do it says oil pay cargo, vanco. Um, but if, if you're, we can put it on there. Hey, I should, if you're sure. Uh, I'm wearing all your clothes. I'm, I'm the advertisement. Thank you for doing that. By the way, they look really good on you. Yeah, thanks. But, but the, uh, I just say, you know, if you're a FinTech looking for, uh, you know, uh, bank solutions, not For managing your business, but for your product You know feel free to reach out to me and again if it's not something so I always tell people it's not something I can do there's probably a pretty good chance I know somebody who can or can point in the right direction, which I have no problem doing that That's an absolute fact. You don't mind doing that. It's it's true You will you will you don't usually I've never seen you leave somebody with nothing. You know what I mean? If CAS is not a perfect fit, you guys just don't do. I mean, there's some consumer, a lot of consumer stuff that we don't do. Because we're a commercial bank and when you get into consumer, there's a whole other level of regulatory that we're not set up for. Yeah. Well, okay. So We'll get cast pay out to our world and thanks for coming in today. I appreciate it. All right. Thank you. All right