Blake
You're listening to Within Our Reach, a podcast by Reachability Association about accessibility, inclusion and leveling the playing field at work and in our community. In today's episode, we're talking about ADHD in the workplace. Join us as myself and our very special guest try and fail to avoid interrupting Shelley Alward-MacLeod at every possible turn. Enjoy the episode.

Today I am joined by my co-host, hello Shelley.

Shelley
Hello. How are you today?
Blake
I'm doing very well. I don't know if I gave my name. I'm Blake. Hello. If you've been listening, you know who I am at this point. But, we have a, we have a very special guest today. We have, the big boss lady is in the chair today. Good morning.

Tova
Hey. Good morning.
The big boss lady has a name, and the name is Tova.

Blake
That is true. Tova Sherman, CEO, reachAbility. Thank you for joining us.

Tova
Thank you. Really excited actually.

Blake
Well, this should be pretty well. And it should be a pretty easy episode for all of us to discuss too, because we're talking ADHD in the workplace and that's, that's that's kind of our jam.

00;00;51;25 - 00;01;15;06
Unknown
That's kind of our jam.

Tova
It's our jam, our peanut butter and the bread. It's a full meal deal.

Blake
It's called us coping Monday through Friday. Yes, that's what this is. Yeah.

Tova
And in our office, it's particularly interesting because there is a, a real large percentage of people living on the ADHD spectrum, whether, you know, somebody yesterday said, well, I think I might be more A.D.D. than ADHD and just right out the gate.

00;01;15;06 - 00;01;32;04
Want to share with everyone one spectrum, whether it's A.D.D. or ADHD. We tend to call it the ADHD spectrum. A spectrum is like a rainbow without all the color. Yeah, you got your mild, you got your medium, you got your severe back to you.

Blake
Well, I think I think that's a good thing to point it out of the gate to us because a lot of people hear that what that H stands for.
And they're like, well, I don't know. You don't seem to be bopping all around the office. You don't seem to be hopping up on your desk every five seconds. It's like, okay, if you could take a look inside my head, you would see where the hyperactivity manifests itself. Those thoughts are speeding very fast. So yeah, it doesn't always it's not something that people might recognize.

They don't know what to look for, not the things they think.

Tova
The reason they don't know what to look for is it manifests so differently. We'll get to that. I know, but I just had to slide that in.

Shelley
absolutely. I think I think that's that's key. that well, first off, if you see me running out the door, although we're on a podcast, but if I'm just us, it's because, you know, the two of them just overtook the conversation.

Blake
This has never happened before.

Shelley
Yeah, exactly. exactly. So I feel like now I'm gonna have to keep both of you in line today.

Blake
We have little styrofoam, stress balls in the shape of rocks so you can actually throw rocks at us if we...

Shelley
I don’t know if we’ll get to level. But I wanted to say right at the gate, like, I just wanted to touch on that.
I know we're going to get into the in-depth, in depth piece. Absolutely. I do a lot of accessibility, accommodation requests and very much so. We're like, we're we're talking about a spectrum, right? Again, once again, okay. As you know, Blake, you and I talked with a lot of our guests. There's no one size fits all. and I think I think Tova will likely get get into that.

It'll manifest itself differently, you know, in the workplace. Right. It it's going to be important that employers recognize that. And it's not just just because this person has ADHD and, you know, somebody else with ADHD, you can't assume their needs are going to be exactly the same. Right.

Blake
And if you think off the top of your head, well, someone with ADHD, surely they have trouble working in an office environment.
Well, we're talking to the CEO of the agency we're sitting in here…

Tova
Who has a terrible time working in an office environment. I'm sorry to blow your lead in, but the truth is, it's very challenging, but it's something you manage with a combination of self-care, whatever that looks like. We have time. We can discuss.

Blake
That's really what we want to talk about.
I think that's coping in the workplace
Shelley

Tova I think that's absolutely great that people don't realize. Right.. And this is this is something that you know, Tova Tova has talked about a lot that, you know, likely everybody has some type of disability, right? Or some type of limitation or something, something they have to work around.

And I think that was really good lead in where Tova said, I have to work in an office all day and the struggle is real. But what are the coping mechanisms? What's the self care that we are that we put in place? Yeah, so I think that is key because it is a two way street. It's not just all about the employer, it's not all about the employee.

Blake
and we do expect accommodations from the employer. We're at that stage that we do. But but you're right. There's a lot of self management that's I think required.

Shelley
Tova well tell us what you what are what are some of the things that you okay as a person living with ADHD?

Because I think you didn't get to identify, Blake identified for you that you had ADHD

Blake
Yeah that was nice of me. Sorry about that.

Tova
Thanks Blake. I’m kidding. Around here it's not a big secret.

Shelley
And I think that's, you know, that's healthy as well. but what are you talk to us about from your perspective?

Right. Over the years, what are some of the things that that you've experienced?

Tova
I probably could do a shorter list of what I haven't experienced, but what I will say, because it has been a very diverse I'm 62, and I'm not going to lie, I have experienced so many things. Some of them are or are, frankly, as a result of my impulse control issues meeting, because I'm on that ADHD spectrum, because I do self-identify as being quite severe based on the testing and so on and behaviors, I can honestly say that I've had some incredible experiences and, they've all taught me a little something, but I don't always learn the lesson as well, maybe

as the way other people do. You know, it was described so well to me. our brains, you mentioned just a bit earlier about that sort of ADHD, the hyper part, the age, you know, and what does that mean in our brains? And really, it was described to me that the brain of people on the spectrum of ADHD, like myself, is like, I'm not like a hyper versus a metronome.

You know, when you're trying to set up your piano and it goes, bing, bing, bing will take that metronome, which is the majority of people's normal brainwaves, like a metronome style. And then there's us ADHD. It's like boom, boom, boom boom. Beep beep beep beep beep beep beep boop. Yeah. It's like a little bit of jazz. I think bee bop came out of somebody with ADHD.

Blake
It's faster and there's no defined.
That's right. And there won't be necessarily a pattern. Yes that's the point. So it's really one of the challenges in trying to figure out how does my ADHD spectrum disorder, you know, how does my disability I'm not particularly destroyed by that word, but how does my disability, work? Because nobody, as you said, is going to necessarily teach it to you because everyone's different.

Although I do believe and I think studies would show that the majority of people living on that spectrum have a parent might be more subtle. They might be better managed. Of course, we don't see our parents the same way as young, young children. We may not catch things.

Blake
The parent may not be ready to acknowledge those very obvious symptoms

Tova
but it's true. You get a lot of, especially with, my parents generation who would be in their late 80s now. I would, get a lot of the what? Disability. I don't have a disability because it's just a tough of everything out. Right. So I really want to say that for me, and I know I got off your question, which is so ADHD of me, but I really wanted to kind of open up my thoughts with how does it manifest for me, it's very hard for me to stay on focus, and that's probably in a workplace, my number one challenge.

But the number one question I get Shelley around workplace in ADHD is should I tell them, you know, and I really want to talk about this for two seconds and you can push me back. Disclosure. Yeah. Yes. No. I have a very simple way of figuring out whether or not you have to disclose.

It's very simple. Is it or is it not? Honestly, authentically, you have to look this over to the old pro con list. Whatever. But is it or is it not going to affect my work? Absolutely. If you work isolated, forgive me, Shelley, but if you work isolated in a cottage and do your own thing, you don't have to disclose your ADHD spectrum disorder if you don't care to.

But I couldn't go into a job. So today, yesterday, no matter what, and not mention it because they would see things that I do differently, ways I use language differently that might tip people into a place that otherwise people may have been more aware and regular signals and all of that, although we are good signal readers. But if we happen to open our eyes and look.

But, that's a different issue.

Blake
We're very intuitive. We pick up the clues very quickly.
Tova There's empathic element to what I think. But anyway, well, what do you think Shelley?

Shelley
Oh, absolutely. I mean, Tova, you and I have been on this. We've done other we've done other trainings on disclosure and I am it's it is very simple. I get asked that question all the time working with individuals.

Should I disclose and for me it's really about is there going to be an impact on your job. Right. And and you know that, you know, you're not going to be able to control what the other people seeing, right? and sometimes it's, you know, it's about knowing more about the business, like maybe it's knowing more about where your office is going to be.
That might be how it impacts you. Yeah. But in the case of and I've dealt with a lot of people who have ADHD and I've said I you're likely going to need to disclose because you're in the workplace and it doesn't matter whether you're have a job that's on a production line in a customer service, right? Sitting at a desk.

Right. There's going to be different ramifications and different pros and cons to each of those situations, but you're going to need to disclose it's going to be very obvious. And if you have a supervisor who has not dealt with ADHD before, they're going to see that as performance issues or behavior. Attitudinal things, and you're likely going to be in conflict from day one.

Blake
Which I think we should point out is not something that we're not shading. That manager who doesn't have that sort of experience because, absolutely, as someone who diagnosed late in life, I didn't get diagnosed until the past year, right? The vast majority of things that I now, I'm well aware our ADHD symptoms and I'm able to manage to an extent, used to be filed under terrible personal flaws I can't overcome. So if I'm being that judge mental about myself from a place of ignorance, how am I supposed to expect someone who's never encountered this in the workplace before, to assume that I'm coming from a place of genuine effort, and that this is really what I can do, not just, you know, screwing the pooch.

Tova
And that's why your question what strategies do you have and how do you do things? And I just want to go back to a very simple statement. People don't come with instructions. And the reason I have to repeat that is because everyone at home may hear something that they connect to, maybe from Blake's explanation or mine around, you know, some of the things that we live with on the spectrum.

But the truth is, the only way we get strategies is through. Well, really two steps. Step one self-awareness. And we got to get to know our self. We've got to understand the fact that we've got some quirky things based on the mainstream way of doing things. even my use of language, I catch myself all the time. People do not always understand what I mean, and I'm kind of a little like, what's wrong with them?

And I've had to learn that no one understood what I meant. I've got two sisters who listen to me my whole life. Trust me, their whole lives. Well, I'm the youngest of my whole life. And I've got to tell you, they go, what are you talking about? And I'm like, what's wrong with you? And I have to realize in Tova, not in everybody, but there's this assumption of people understanding me, but they aren't in my head.

How could they know those elements took me to this place? It’s one of those things I do. I have to watch, especially, Shelley, in the workplace.

Shelley
Absolutely. And I think, I want to I want to tie that back into, like, what you said about the supervisor, like, let's knock it down like a supervisor, because people don't know.
But I really think it's about a whole self reflective piece. Right. It's people don't know what you don't know that you know. Tova said. They don't come with a structure manager and that's people both as supervisors as well, because they feel like they haven't been given the skill set. And if you think about as you know, as Tova said, 62, I can relate.

I'm the same age.

Tova
Shelley, you look great. I hope people listening to us know this, right. You look great for your age.

Shelley
So do you.

Tova
Your skin.

Blake
You two keep this up I’ll be over here being a baby.

Tova
All right. Right, right. Go ahead.

Shelley
So it's so. But I think that's an important piece, because if you have a supervisor who's, you know, likely from our generation, right.

Depending on what they've seen in their life and how many opportunities that they have had, if they've worked for the same organization in the same field. I mean, their parents may very well have had ADHD, but people didn't talk about it, that's for sure. Right. It was not diagnosed. It was not there. I don't even think it had a name.

Right. So there is a bit of ignorance. Right. and that's through no fault. But I think there needs to be self-awareness and self-reflection. It's my biggest thing in every single employee. I don't care whether like, you know, as a manager or a supervisor when you're looking at an employee who's acting out, acting differently, doing things differently from you as opposed to doing that, jump the gun and what the heck is wrong with them, right?

I tell people, take your finger first and point it back at yourself and let assumption am I making about the root cause, right? Like, how about if we we need to have a why am I called energetic industrious person lazy hours in the day?

Tova
And that's where self-management is being the next step. Because you can know all this.

But if you're not applying your self-awareness, which is of course really who you are and how things affect you, what are your triggers? Then you walk into a space and you're all pissed off at everybody. You got to look at the common thread. And sadly, in my life many times it has been me and I've had to acknowledge that.

Blake
This is what I want to kind of dial this back a tiny bit, because just to where we're talking about the the principle, you need to disclose if it's going to affect your job automatically in our heads.
I think we spin that in a negative way. If it's going to impact your job, that you're not going to be able to do certain things, you're not going to be able to focus quite as well. You're not going to be able to manage. There could be a very positive impact on your job just by saying the words By the way, I have ADHD when we talk about in that, in that in this office, if someone says, by the way, I have ADHD,

Tova
well, first of all we laugh because it's like back of the line. It's like, this is not unique in our office.

Blake
but also we can teach them coping mechanisms they may not have ever encountered themselves.

I like to use myself as an example here, because I started when I started here four and a half years ago. I didn't know I had ADHD, I hadn't been diagnosed, and the way that this came up as a path to diagnosis was you. Tova, you and I had a conversation I just said from day one, I just said something about how I had never been diagnosed with ADHD, but I thought I saw some of the symptoms in myself, actually just literally stopped and stared at me and said oh no, you do. And just and you know, I know there's lots of talk about why ADHD is overdiagnosed, but no, it was underdiagnosed forever. It is extremely common and if you're just catching up and you can see those symptoms in each other, you can you really can relate to your employer or your manager that way in a way that can make your work life much more positive.

So it doesn't have to be a negative that you're worried about. You can disclose to get the positive results. You get the benefits.

Shelley
I think it's I think part of part of self-management. Okay. Part of self-aware ness. All right. Part of understanding yourself, okay, is in how you explain it. Right? Because I usually will tell people, assume your supervisor has no idea, has never heard the term ADHD before, right?
When you're explaining I have ADHD, don't. You're not saying it in a negative connotation because there isn't a negative connotation I would talk about. Right? It's likely right. I I'm gonna I may lose focus at different times, but my creativity, right. My ability to think outside the box right. is a win for the employer. Very much a win win for this, right?
Yeah. Also. Right. it's likely I'm not going to be hiding things. I'm going to want to be very collaborative, really. So using some of those skills, those as Tova described outspoken. Right. Like you feel it right. Use those skills to explain how it might manifest itself and the positives. So I really do like that, Blake, is that not sticking to the not sticking to the negatives because, you know, there isn't a negative I don't think I don't think there is a negative could Lord, if we asked every single person right to talk about some of their, you know, faults, right?
And started to look at that a challenge, ever employee has challenges.

Tova
Every employee and you're the HR expert. Shelley. Correct me. Every employee needs some form of accommodation. All you're doing is letting them know you did the work. To know yourself and to know what you require versus sit there and just kind of like in the water, you know, paddling in the water and not moving.

And somebody goes, finally, why are you still paddling? Yeah,

Blake
you're honestly the easier employee to help in that respect because that not everybody needs some form of accommodation. But if I come to you and say I have ADHD, this is a studied thing. I fall within the general parameters for people with ADHD in this sort of area. You can look in a book, in a paragraph and a half and find out five or 6 or 7 different things you can do to make me more productive in the workplace.

Tova
By knowing it first, though, and educating the employer they keep talking about, they don't always have like what's your expectation of them. No. Well, the answer is if your expectation is the same expectation of what you've put in. If you haven't bothered yet, don't expect them to bother. It's not their problem. Now you're. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Blake
No, sorry. I was just gonna say if you're an employer who doesn't feel the need or doesn't understand why they would be willing to take the time to understand a person with the correct employer to work with. Well, more importantly, I would like you to have a crisis in your workplace and then look around and see who's walking around in that state of shock with their head half cut off and who is absolutely chill and dealing with things like there's not a fire going on whatsoever because it's the ADHD person who is just coping totally fine.

They may not cope totally fine At 3:00 in the afternoon when someone scheduled a meeting like a their worst enemy. But when there's an actual emergency, I find ADHD people often are more generally more calm, cool, and collected. At that point.

Tova
Well allow me to say this. I think it's extremely important. And just following on your statement, Shelley, that the employer understand and of course, your original statement, Blake, which is that there's positives here.

For instance, you know, I have I may lose focus sometimes, but I always make my deadlines. Yes. You know, that's because you're so anxious about not make well. But that's a perfect example of me because I have a lot of deadlines. You know, we were been doing grants lately and they're all like next week, this week, Friday, Tuesday.
Did you all the letters come in, you know, and we work on that quite a bit. And I think that I understand those deadlines, even if I'm not doing it in the way or within the time, not within the timeframe, yes, but in the way that they want to do it. Like I'm working at night, not necessarily in the morning, but the work will be done.

And if I was speaking to an employer, I would just keep emphasizing my deadlines are always match and that's what they need to hear.

Shelley
And really, at the end of the day, that's what the employer wants. I mean, I think, I think part of it is I've talked about this before, that employers, supervisors, managers, whatever, ask intimidated by what they don't know.

Right. So they they're tasked with in ensuring that the job gets done right. And, and they're about to hire somebody who they don't know whether they're going to require accommodations that might limit their ability to get the job done. So I think it is important that we have that, but it also allows for a genuine conversation between you and the supervisor up front in the beginning, because it allows the supervisor to ask questions, what do you need?
Like and you can go through the job description like, what are the things where you're going to need support? And the one thing that I think is, and I want to say this for all the managers and supervisors out there, people with ADHD are very good at actually telling you what they need, right? Unlike when you're in a performance management meeting.
Okay. or some disciplinary meeting with an employee. Okay. Who you've had issues with and it's about them coming late or attendance management issues. Keep going back. These are you know, these are big these are big things right? Where the employer doesn't know how to deal with it. Like you're asking questions and the employee doesn't know how to solve it.

With ADHD, you likely ask the question of what supports do you need? They are going to tell you just like you said, Tova, I'm going to say I'm going to get the job done. I might need to work different hours, but you're right.

Tova
Your deadline. Your need, your deliverables, right? Are doable exactly by the process I've put into place.

It just may not be your process. Absolutely. So that's the message.

Shelley
So I think you know bottom line is, you know, in the workplace if you have ADHD right. This it is going to impact your job in some way. Right. you need to disclose. Right. But do it in a positive

Tova
Know yourself first. Yeah. Write down some key pluses.

I mean, I write things down because that's how I remember them. Yes. But and by hand, not by computer. So, so for me, I'm like, I always have a little scribbler and I write in it.

Blake
This is actually a really good let's try to rapidfire this, because I think it's a good thing we can do here that will be really practical for people.

You carry a notebook with you everywhere. And so driving this office, we we just it's the looking for it. I tell people whenever someone says, oh, Blake, can you do this for me tomorrow? Yeah, absolutely. Send me an email. Send me an email. If you and I tell them to their face, if you do not write it down, it will not happen.

This is something in accommodation I know about myself. It's very simple and I'm very blunt with everybody, but it makes a tremendous difference in my work. Like I said, I did some of the coping things and some of the practical coping mechanisms that you do in the office.

Tova
I can tell you, I reject small post-its, okay. Because I asked someone to write them down, but they wrote them on a little loose post-it that's the size of my thumbnail.

Oh, and those will fly off your desk or your trash can. So, you know, again, being emphatic about it has to be done by email so that you can't literally I can't lose it. Yeah. So that's really important to me. So what are some of my quick quick how am I handling that. Yes okay. First and foremost is I'm constantly looking at my day.

Yes. to the point where anyone else would probably go, have you got nothing better to do? But I have to look at my day because for me, I have to generate in my brain what I want to do with each thing, and I start writing those notes in my scribbler before the meeting. If I know I'm meeting Shelley on a nature piece of business, I will write.

I mean, you can make you make fun of me a little bit because I will write up my feelings. I will write out why I'm upset. I will write out what I think having reflected pros and cons, my why I'm obsessed is, you know, with a whiteboard. I'm sorry. I used to joke I wanted a whiteboard in the bedroom.

I can't tell you that. my bad, but I love a good whiteboard.

Shelley
That's another.

That's another episode of.

Tova
That's another episode.

Blake
No one picture the diagrams is all I have to say.

Tova
So no, no, there won't be any pictures with this conversation for sure. But, I really love a whiteboard because I have an idea. I have a lot of ideas.
If anything, somebody should curb the edge on those ideas. But I have I do have a lot of ideas, and a lot of them have to be shot down by my team who go, that's nice. Forget it, because I have a lot of ideas which on that front, hence the whiteboard, I got a flexible.

Blake
Yeah, that is something that we this is interesting because that's almost something that as a manager and as a CEO, you have to disclose to your team because we have a couple people here and I don't want to I don't want to throw anyone under the bus, but I'm sure you're going to know exactly what we're not that we have

some people who are, and I don't want to call them neurotypical and assume, but generally more so than you and I are anyway. but also very professional. Very point A to point B to people. And Tova occasionally we'll come into one of these people's office and sit down. You know, I see the look, you know who I'm talking about now

Tova
I know exactly who you’re talking about.

Blake Hunsley. And just for lack of a better term, you free flow, a bit word vomit on them, a wonderful new plan for a new program that we're going to start and we're going to apply for funding for. And we're going to have to hire new people for and possibly rent new office space and bobbity bobbity blab. And it's a great plan.
It won't necessarily happen if we can make it happen in a year or two. Maybe, but this person doesn't have that and rapid fire that, you know,

Tova
I think they thought I was having a stroke because I was doing concepts at her and I could see her face just slowly shutting down faster

Blake
This is stage one. This is maybe, maybe 10% of what we're talking about now will come to happen eventually.

But this is just getting us fired up so you can plan for this.

Tova

I like to get people involved,

Blake
But this person thought it was real. Everything is real. As soon as you start planning for it. And for Tova and I, often planning can be a much more chaotic process until we boil it down, that's really

Tova
I like a lot of discussion.

I like input, I like people to say why that wouldn't work. So I'm kind of asking people different things and they're like, don't tell me anything happening. Yeah, until you've got money in front of you.

Blake
And even still, we generally have a little minute after some meetings where I go, okay, calm down, this is not happening yet.

Tova
I often leave Blake in the room when I leave. That might be an accommodation.

Blake
. Honestly, I like we joke about it, but realistically, having someone else on the team who understands your ADHD and who also has it, but it manifests differently. Can be you and I wouldn't work together nearly as well as we do if we had exactly the same sort of manifestation.

Tova
Actually, it would be impossible because I still need, other done.

Not me. I can do me. I don't need another me. God help us. What I need is a you.

Shelly
So Tova is in a dual position right. Because you're a leader. Okay. Who also happens to have ADHD. Yes. And in a leadership role some of these things or it because we let's let's think about it like the hierarchical process okay.
Tova walks into subordinates office and is having a brain dump okay. About all these creative ideas? The employee thinks, okay, I got to start working on all this. Holy crap. I got to start working on all those things. And what if I think the idea is crazy, right? Because I hear that a lot. Okay, is. And I'm like, well, it doesn't matter that they have ADHD, this is about being able to have healthy dialog.

Yes. Healthy debate okay. In the workplace.

Blake
And some intuition to to parse what you're hearing right. And use context clues. Do we have the money, time and headspace to be doing this right now?

Tova
We've involve an entire new office.

Shelley
Exactly. So just is this an is this a new program we're looking to launch? What is it like start built a start filtering in because Tova and I meet, you know, regularly and Tova does have her emotions her whiteboard , which I think is great because it allows us to be able to have a very fulsome.

Yeah. Meeting frankly.

Blake
Well, how much easier for you? You have such a full and colorful picture of exactly where you're at.

Shelley
Well, exactly. And frankly, if all my clients showed up okay, with all of that, it would be great, right? The thing that I. I'll let Tova does working with Tova, I'll let Tova describe all the things.

Right. Then I start questioning. Yes. Right.

Tova
Which I like.

Shelley
Which which I've learned. Okay. Because then that brings it back to reality. Right. And I, I think that's like a real key tip for people that are working with ADHD is that they need to be able to express themself. Right. You know, so when you said, I have ideas, I am all I get up.

I have a lot of ideas. That's great. As a manager, I want you to have ideas. Right. But at some point, okay, in the meeting when we've brainstormed, Tova, we'll have brainstormed 100 things more than everybody else. Yeah, okay. We need you need to be able to get that back on track. Okay. Now let's start. Let's start looking at some of those ideas.

How would we implement like what does that look like. Like right. Like right.

Blake
And this is this is why we talk about hiring people with disabilities like this. So because your team is so much stronger when you have that person who is firing off all those creative ideas, who is building the programs in 15 minutes on a white board, but then you also have other people on the team who are either neurotypical, neurodivergent in another way, who will look at that in a much more analytical way, in a much quieter, fact based sort of way, the team is stronger.

We get so much more done. If we were all a bunch of neurotypicals, we may not have ever come up with the very idea for the program.

Tova
I doubt we'd still be here.

Blake
If everyone had ADHD on the team too, we probably would be spinning our wheels pretty hard. We need that. That person who it sounded like I was making fun of earlier for their reactions to to your brain dumps.

We tell that person all the time how necessary they are.

Tova
One of the most important members of our team.

Shelley
The person who drives from point A to point B and can't be interrupted along the way. Okay, is your person who's going to implement yes, right. They're going to implement. They're going to be your project lead because they are going to haul everybody together because they're no nonsense.

Right. And and I always people will say to me, oh, like my finance person is like just so like this. Like, you know, he's not flexible. And I was like, yes, that's exactly how I should be my finance character. I do not want I don't want the creative person. No, not here. So that kind of what we talk about like are there certain jobs okay that are better for people with ADHD?

Blake
God bless you for getting us back to the questions.

Shelley
I thought that was a good segue because while I don't think that we should, people should limit themselves because people have different like loves and passions, it's likely right that somebody with ADHD right is going to have a very difficult time, right? In a job that's very narrow, focused.
Yeah. Right.

Tova

Absolutely. Those things that we need diversity, diversity, new ideas, new projects to work on, and I will say, I often say, although we can all do almost anything if we want to, bad enough. The truth is, I shouldn't be in a library where it's quiet and there's no outbursts allowed or any of that.

But now I am a public speaker. Yes, perfect. Technically, if I got up on a stage and spoke, the last place I have to talk about my ADHD is there because I'm. I'm perfectly built for this work. Yeah, you know what I mean? That's that's the easy part. It's doing the other things, the more challenging things are learning to slow down because you mentioned all of a million ideas.
The problem is I have to slow down so that other people have a chance to get in there, too. And that's one of the going. And I'm flipping around a little. But going back to what you said, Blake, the sort of what do you do? What are some of those rapid fire things are? The hardest thing I've had to do is slow down.

Yeah. So others can not catch up in a weird way, but just get on page with where I am and what's it going to take, because they are different thinkers.

Shelley
Yeah. And and and and from the person who's looking in who, who deals okay with the two of you, and others with ADHD, I said it already is allowing people to get their ideas out because one of the you heard me say, you know, Tova tells me all the things on our little whiteboard before I respond back right.
Because I find that that is key. And frankly, that works for many, many people as a just a good as a good, getting everybody's voice like hearing everybody's voice because, you know, Tova, when you say you have to rein yourself in and allow other people, I find it's very easy, allow everybody to get their thoughts out. Right. because once their thoughts are out there and it's on the board, okay, then they can usually settle back.

The other thing that I find that, you know, working with people with ADHD, you know, when you're doing a brainstorming session and you're going around the room and you're asked people, okay, give me your first idea first, and you're going to keep going around the room. That doesn't actually work for ADHD people, and it doesn't actually work for a lot of people that they need to give you all their ideas at once.

Blake
Yes. Thank you. I was just sitting here thinking I would be physical pain.
Shelley
Right How do I pick one? I've got 15 on my list. But when are we coming back to me? Right.

Blake
I can't hear you until I am heard by you. It's so embarrassing. To admit that.

Shelley
But it's. changing the way we do things. It's just finding a way that's inclusive to everybody.

Blake
Yeah. and what seems like impatience in that sort of scenario too, on, say, my part, I'm going to be the most attentive listener, and I'm going to be so thoughtful towards your ideas.
If you can just let me get mine all out first.

Shelley
Right? Yeah. And and frankly, as a leader, we shouldn't be actually dissecting any one idea until all the ideas are on the table, because the really good idea may be still sitting in somebody's head. That's right. Or the piece of that idea that we need to actually be successful.
Yeah. So, I mean, I do think I want to put a rider on this because I'm always very, very cautious about, you know, what jobs are better for people with ADHD. And, you know, while the job might be your passion, I do recognize in life, right, that we all have, you know, basic needs. Right. So there's times in life, okay, where you're likely going to have to take a job, right?

To shelter. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That that may not be the best fit for you. Right. So let's take this job of a production line or a manufacturing line, like something that's very repetitive. You're standing there, you're doing widgets, you know, for eight hours a day, right? That is likely. Okay. Not the ideal job, okay, for somebody with ADHD.

Right. But nevertheless, there's going to be somebody with ADHD that applies for that job. So as a as an employer, I think it is important to understand. And if I had ADHD, I would be disclosing. So that I could work with my employer. What can I d? Is there is this an opportunity? And I work, I talk with manufacturing production lines all the time because repetitive strains are real thing like, is this an opportunity where, okay, every 30 minutes or every hour we're going to switch four people and it may only be that you're moving from this side of the production line to that side.

Yeah, but it's

Blake
some days that's enough

Shelley
Right. And so what are the things that we need to have in place. Right. And sometimes it's little color. Sometimes it's music. Right. So there's still going to need to be things to allow right individuals to be successful while you have them there. And and sometimes they're small little things as an employer that you can do and that person may end up being your best employee too.

Blake
I do think and I mean, I know there's a lot of scenarios where I'm applying for this job. It's 40 hours a week. It's going to be doing the exact same thing for eight hours a day, and it's going to be very dull. That sounds like a nightmare to me, but sometimes you have to take the job. You've got to pay.

You have to exactly leave it. Yeah, that said, I think we talk about a lot about two things. We talk about a lot about right person, right job and how hard it is to find that fit. But also, we've been talking a lot more lately about playing to your strengths and building on those strengths, rather than trying to force yourself to get good at the things you don't have any natural aptitude for, right?

I think I would be very hesitant to recommend that that person take that job unless they were in the dire straits, because that person is so suited for a job that someone, a more neurotypical person, might absolutely hate. I say my job a lot of the time is, you know, putting out fires, herding cats and, you know, choose your own adventure every day because that's perfect for me.

That makes me excited to come to work. When I tell some people that you can see they just like aghast that is having to come in and be inventive and tackle a new fire every day sounds like a nightmare to them, whereas eight hours doing the same thing to them would be the most calming zen thing in the world, right?

Shelley
Yeah, I agree, I mean, ideally every organization, both from the employees perspective and from the employee, employer's perspective, when you have the right person in the right job doing the right thing at the right time, that is like, win win win.

Tova
And I just want to I know we're running out of time.

So I just want to squeeze it in. And that is entrepreneurship. Yes. I think it's really important we talk about it best practice or next practice whatever you want to call it. The very best practices are trying to find something that fits you. And, I was reading, interestingly, an article about how many people on the ADHD spectrum end up being entrepreneurs.
Yes, out of necessity. and I can speak to the fact that I myself didn't always do the best with other people being the boss. And it was one of the reasons, instead of maybe joining an existing NGO, I made a bit of a scary decision to start one and I'm not going to lie to you that it wasn't only because I had ideas that others didn't, and all those wonderful, altruistic things.

But the truth was, I didn't like not having my ideas heard. I didn't like the fact that my belief system wasn't being reflected in the values of the places around me. And, you know, like I'm very big on our values, that reachability matching the values of the individual joins us. And in fact, I anytime I talk to people, the first thing I say to potential employees is check out our values and make sure they're your values.

And they look at me a little bit strange, and I'm thinking, if you haven't taken the time, assess what your values are for real. So what I have found, just to get back to it, is that a lot of people on the spectrum are becoming entrepreneurs out of somewhat of a necessity to find a place where they can do their best work and, balance that hindrance versus help, you know what I mean?

And I know for a fact, if I'd have been able to find a place to just plug in, I would have. Also, sometimes we find our experiences through different avenues than just a traditional, degree and so on. And as a result, people often won't get the jobs. They'll probably able to do because they may not bring what's known as the traditional method of getting that experience, i.e. MBA and Masters.

Yeah, I've had many people ask me what my masters is in and I do not have one, and I've even lost gigs over the fact that they found it out. And then they even kind of like, sorry, we don't work with people without masters, but nobody told me that at the beginning. The bottom line is entrepreneurship is a really important arm for people.

And in today's gig world, the gig economy is they've been calling it, although we're shifting a little already, I can see it, but the I call it micro enterprise or micro entrepreneurship, and it's really where you look in the mirror and say, what do I love to do? And if the answer is, for instance, I like hanging out with dogs, well, maybe you start a small micro enterprise by putting up signs and all the posts around the neighborhood that you walk.

Dogs. Yep. And you create a micro entrepreneurship opportunity for yourself. And it doesn't have to be huge. And you don't end up having to be the owner of a big airline like the gentleman who owns JetBlue, who's also very severe on the ADHD spectrum and talks a lot about the fact that he himself had to start his own business because he wasn't really able to get it, get what he needed out of working for others.

So I just wanted to say, I'm not saying it's for everyone, but I'll tell you what, it's for more people than it used to be. And one of the things I know, you know, at reach ability we're working on is not just talking about education is a next step. Not just talking about employment is the next step, but actually investigating.

What would it take to potentially because of who you are and how you do things to look at a micro enterprise for you?

Shelley
That is that is so important. And I think for all those people out there who, you know, 15 years ago said it would have said, jeez, I'd love to have my own place, but I can't do that right?

Because there was never the support for those things to get put in place. Right now, entrepreneurship is a huge thing. There are so many supports, for people who want to be their own boss. Right. And I think that that that's a great opportunity for people to be looking at what can I do? And sometimes maybe there's some things that they may need training they need to take.

There may be some mentorship that they need to do to get to there. But I don't think it's always a hard no. Talking to some of the people that you know, are have been through, you know, some of the programs here at at reachability. I think that that is a great idea. I was talking to a, an individual, obviously we won't be disclosing names, that was talking about some of their volunteer work and felt and felt okay because they had heard from other people.

Obviously those people were from the dark Ages that, their volunteer work wouldn't count towards anything. And I thought my comment was bullshit. Yeah, right. That that's not true. At all. As a matter of fact. Right. Some we fail. We fail greatly. Okay. As employers. Okay. when, we don't talk to people about what their volunteer or about their volunteer work, because sometimes some of the things that people are doing in volunteer work, okay, well, would require, okay, somebody with some pretty extreme education.

Right. And they're doing it and doing it very successfully for a long period of time.

Tova
They’re not doing it in theory, ie school, they’re doing it correct.

Blake
Which is hysterical that we undervalue the actual practical experience in favor of someone who read many books on the subject. Not to completely undervalue education, too, we've all been through that too.

Shelley
There are people who are working and have been working for many years in a volunteer capacity who so we, you know, and we underestimate. Okay, I really do think I think are undervalue I think is probably the better word. So I was very clear to this person. Absolutely. Let's talk about that. Tell me what you've been doing.

Oh my gosh that correlates to that just opens all kinds of doors. And you could see the light going on in that person's eyes. Because now all of a sudden, oh, that's a whole nother avenue. It could be micro entrepreneurship. It could be actually going to work in a paid position for an NGO. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So I think there's, there's so many different, you know, different avenues that that we could be doing.

And absolutely as a, as a person with ADHD, Tova, I think your point about, you know, being in charge of your own destiny. Right. certainly. Right.

Tova
And I'm glad you made the volunteerism because I didn't. But the truth is, that's why we started a volunteerism program because some clients were just not ready to work. Yeah, we really saw it and we don't.

And I was saying no one goes nowhere. So we had to kind of like, plug in some of these gaps. Yeah. And the first plug was saying, what do you love to do? Getting them in the volunteerism space allowed them to see that maybe the things they thought they love to do, they wouldn't. But also one of my favorite words, transferable skills.

What did they learn from that volunteer position, and how could it be applied to any job? Because basic core skills like, responsibility, whether that means showing up on time or if you're open, you open, you know, words like, punctual, committed, you know, you know, you earn those every day in everything you do, you don't need again, an employer plus a school to tell you you can be responsible.

So I really spend a lot of time talking about transferable skills, especially for folks on the ADHD spectrum, because we've got a little bit of also drama that isn't always discussed, but there is a sense of emotionally taking things to a heavier level than maybe in realistic perspectives wouldn't see. So I'm I'm been obsessing about something and I'm going to tell the story cause it's so funny.
But I tried out for this new game show called battle of the Generations in Canada. Okay? And I tried out because it's all pop culture trivia, and I'm pretty good at this stuff. I don't know why my brain likes useless information. It's my thing. Anyway, I have been obsessing about something I commented on in an interview and wondering if that's why they're not getting back to me now, as Blake reminded me, is they said it could take months.

And of course it's been not even a month. But I will spend time, for lack of a better word, catastrophizing about what I said and focusing on it in a really intensely kind of self. Put down, self stigmatizing way. And I've had to show a lot of awareness, self awareness and self management and not letting that stuff bother me.

And one of the ways you do it is simply by saying to someone who's on the spectrum of the story and they'll tell you, yeah, you know what's going on here, right? Like they're zoning in on something negative that's slowing things down. But you're obsessing on a level that probably someone who's not on the spectrum wouldn't necessarily fall into as quickly.

So we have to know who we are.

Shelley
I love how you keep saying self-awareness and self-management. I can't even tell you how pleased that makes me, because many people are very self-aware and then they don't feel a need for self improvement, that's a missing piece. So you should just stop being self-aware because you're just wasting your time.

So I, I really do like that piece. Right? Because I have a lot of time and I have this little saying when somebody does what you starts to catastrophize about something that's yet to happen. And this happens all the time in conflict resolution or when I'm doing mediation. And I'll say to them, oh, I hear you.

But how about this we're not going to borrow trouble for something that has yet to happen. Yeah. When? If it should happen, then let's build a plan around it. Right.

Blake
Don’t go seeking worries, you've got enough.

Tova
So be aware that you have an inclination to seek worry. Yeah.

So that again, part of your self-awareness is all those pieces knowing it right. Writing down in a sense who you are to you. Yeah. And then saying, how am I going to now take that awareness and create a career, whatever that looks like for me in whatever frame that I've decided? Yeah, however I do it. But without that self-management and self-awareness first, followed by self-management, it's not going to be easy.

You're going to make it harder for yourself. And my goal is, honestly, to make it easier for everyone with a disability because I had to figure out these battles, and I'd like to save someone 20 or 30 years with this information.

Blake
On that note, and on thinking about awareness and how we'd like to inspire to be a little more aware, I want to make one final comment on entrepreneurship and people with ADHD.

People with ADHD. As you tell us, tell them all the time, often have anxiety and depression. It's comorbid with ADHD. It's very, very.

Tova
I hope you're addressing that, whoever you are.

Blake
So you’re looking at a group of people who are more, who are sorry, who are less risk averse and less anxious. These are people who probably have far more anxiety than the average bear when it comes to starting their own business, and yet they're still going out and doing it.

Why? Because in a traditional work environment, you are micromanaging that person. You are looking them at them at two in the afternoon and saying, you have a project due in two weeks, why aren't you working on it? Because it's due in two goddamn weeks. Like, I will do the best work you will see in your life, but it will not happen for another four days.

The lack of understanding is what's driving people on into entrepreneurship. Not that we're just chill. We're very far from chill. We're more anxious. And that’s still the better path.

Tova
Which is why we still to be a little bit, maybe more in control of our environment, including in a work environment. So I totally hear that, and I'm glad you did bring that up, because it's so important.

And I'm sort of on one track here. But the importance of people understanding that you may not have to do a thing about your ADHD once you're at a school. So I always say parents are like, oh my God, she's taking me. So don't worry about it. Get through school. Yeah, school was built for people in the middle of the road and in terms of neuro, realities they’re really, it's not built for us.

And although there's trials, it's still we're in this sort of special ed kind of stuff, which, you know, how I feel about the word special.

Blake
And the parents who think their kids don't have ADHD because they don't score really highly in school. Yeah, that's generally women with ADHD. And to a weird extent, gay men with ADHD. Yeah.

Tova
We tend to score higher.
Well let's remember we’re competitive. Beyond appropriate. Yeah. I'll tell you another element you're going to see in a lot of people on the spectrum, how they how they put it out there might be very different, but there's a level of competitive. And so let's go back to why are people starting their own businesses.
Well, first of all, risk adversity since Covid is gone through the roof. Nobody wants to start a new business. In fact, they've gone down by 50%. Yep. New business start ups since Covid. So if anything, there's an interesting gap there and an opportunity, as you say, Shelley, to get some supports in that micro enterprise environment, because this is something that people who are risk averse aren't going to do, whereas people on the ADHD spectrum, for all of our anxiety, it's real.

And I really want people to know I do not take medication for ADHD spectrum disorder. I take medication for anxiety because that's what gets me. So please remember that comorbidity that you know you're talking about, Blake, is important because people think, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? No no no no. They're married. Those two. Yeah. They're married.

So So be aware. But allow the fact that also why might microenterprise? Because with your moods and with your management of your own depression, anxiety as that's working itself out and it's an ongoing process. You know, you do a combination of medication, in my case, therapy, you know, self-awareness, self-management, reading, trying to really stay in a, in a place doing meditation.

Even though people don't know how I do it, I can go into a meditative state quicker than most people. And supposedly research shows people on the ADHD spectrum can actually reach a meditative state quicker, which is surprising to me considering how in my case, you know, anxious I am.

Blake
I don't think we're expecting that brain silence that so many neurotypical people expect that meditation will bring them.

They'll sit there and then they'll have a stray thought and go, oh, I have to start over again. A thought went through my head. Whereas the cycle of thoughts going through our heads is normal. We're just not paying attention to it or acknowledging it and letting it pass on.

Tova
So allowing ourselves to be able to do those things is what's going to empower us.
Part of that self-awareness, self-management, that I'm saying now is a great time to be someone who knows yourself, who's ready to get out there and figure out what's going to work for you. Yeah. Where your values are, don't want go to your house without your own values. Yeah, but you've got to know yourself.

Blake
Our last note on self-management.
we have gone over time.

Tova
We always do.

Blake
We've hit three of our ten questions that we had put aside.

Tova
That’s pretty good!

Blake

For this topic, and this panel. This session. Exactly. Right.

Shelley
Exactly. I was actually surprised we got any of the questions, honestly. because I thought we would just jump in and start talking about it, as we often do. But I think we covered a lot of really, really good things.

Tova

Rarely spoken about. I want you to know, rarely do I get an opportunity other than this podcast environment to get to some of these things that aren't the big generalizations that everyone needs to hear. Just get out the door.

Blake
I'd also like to suggest the idea of a part two, because I think this is a topic that we're just digging into.
Why would we not? Don't tell me, I see you sitting here laughing as if you don't have more to say on the topic.

Tova
I have so much to say, you know that I'm just always worried I'm going to say the wrong thing.

Blake
That's okay. I edit this podcast, we edit it. I feel like everything truly egregious is in the blooper reel.

Shelley
Well I do like the idea of part two from this perspective. We talked a lot about ADHD, okay, and the spectrum, but we just started at the end to talk about the the marriage. Yes. Okay. Yes. other. Yeah. Okay. Things that might be impacting people with ADHD, anxiety, depression. Right.

Tova
Also acknowledging the majority of people with disability have more than one.
Yeah. I don't know anyone who has one disability who knows themself. I know people who say I have a sore wrist and I'm going, are you going to mention the ADHD and the depression or. No,

Shelley
Exactly so. So I think it might be good to explore from that.

00;54;56;09 - 00;55;21;23
Unknown
How? Because that is another way that maybe even even people themselves, as you said, aren't realizing. And sometimes it's actually not their ADHD that's manifesting the impact in the workplace or impact in their social situation or impact in the community. Yeah, it's the actual anxiety. Yeah, yeah. or depression or whatever else. Okay. So I love that for a second idea.

Blake
We can also drill down on what the employer can do because we talked a lot about our self control in this one.

Shelley
I don't want to say what I'm going to say because I need to have a separate conversation.

Tova
Big surprise, big surprise.

Blake
We’ll give one little hint I need is don't ever call an employee lazy, right?

There are lazy employees. I see that face.

Tova
I'm not saying anything!
I didn’t say anything. Folks who can’t see my face, I'm just sitting here quietly.

Blake
Yeah, I think people are called lazy by employers who don't understand ADHD people. You're giving me a face.

Tova
Oh, it's just funny because I've never been called lazy. I've been called late. I've been called a few things, but not really lazy because my energy is so high. Not everybody, by the way, is my energy is so high that people can't quite come to a place where they could say that word to me. I've actually heard so, except my mother.

My mother described me when I asked her describe me. She described me as lazy, which I thought was fascinating because nobody sees it. But she's right. I would never clean up my room. I would never put things away. Yeah, she would see a trail behind me, right. You know, and she would say, you're lazy because you're not picking it up.

So you're right. It's something I heard from my mother, who, by the way, in my opinion. Hello. Apple not falling far from tree.

Blake
Yeah, I can relate to that.
Shelley
So I think there's, there's it's not a part three to this session about employers, there’s a whole season. I think there's a whole other thing that we can do about training for employers.

Tova
Yes. I also want to say we got to talk about TikTok and ADHD next time because there's so much information pouring out. And I want to say to everybody, there's a lot coming out. It's not all correct. I don't care what you think, who's who. We don't know anything. If it rings true to you, great. Allow it to investigate further.

But don't just take the word

Blake
And if doesn't ring true. Don't sit there thinking, why am I not fit in this box?

Tova
I have been outside the box from day one.

Shelley
Yes. And let's end the session with how we started. Right? That it's not one size fits all right? Just because you have or know one person that has ADHD.

Yeah. Don't make the assumption that everybody else that you meet is going to have those exact same. set of circumstances. It's more the rainbow, right? The spectrum of ADHD because I think he called the rainbow without the color. Is that what you say?

Tova
To sort of say it's not so simple, you know, it's not an easy Rainbow.

It's not a pretty oh yay rainbow.

Blake

Yeah. That's right. It's it's not quite so cheerful and sparkly some days.
Tova
Yeah. That's how I feel. Yeah.

Shelley
Here we are at the end of, at the end of the podcast,

Tova
the world's longest podcast.

Blake
We stayed on task. Kind of.

Shelley
We did we did stay on task. Tova, thank you so much for it's always a pleasure having you and I know talking about the subject that's near dear to your heart.

But thank you for, being with us today. We're looking forward to part 23456789 ten.

Blake
Seasons two through eight.

Shelley

Yeah. And as always, thank you for myself, Shelley and my co-host.

Blake
Oh I'm Blake. Hi. Thanks. Been nice to be here.

Tova
Thank you all.

Blake
Thanks for listening to Within Our Reach. We'll be back in two weeks with our next episode.

If you have an idea for an episode topic you'd like us to cover, or if you'd like to join us as a guest on the podcast, reach out to us withinourreach@reachability.org