Maisie: Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast

Andy: Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94.

My name's Andrew Hunter Murray and I'm here in the Private Eye office

with Helen Lewis and Adam McQueen.

The three of us have gathered,

Helen: We are a slightly like a cove this week actually, as

we all sit round our radiator.

Andy: There's a radiator in between all of us 'cause it's, it's

unseasonably cold in this room.

Adam: Do you know what I worked out this week?

I was speculating about our colleague Helen, and how she finds time to do

everything that she's up to at the moment.

And I thought she must have a time turner.

And I suddenly thought, my God, she is Hermionie.

Oh my.

And, and then very rapidly I thought, oh my God, I'm Ron Weasley

Helen: You are the Ron Weasley of the podcast.

Adam: Ian, who is not present this week is definitely Dumbledore, isn't he?

You are.

You are the boy that lived.

Andy: I think I'm Neville.

Uh, that's very nice to hear.

But I'm pretty sure I'm Neville long bottom.

Helen: I did.

Um, it was a thing that came up a lot during my adolescence.

I, I used to hang out at this lovely tattoo shop in

Worcester, run by, uh, Americans.

And they went, oh my God, you're so like Heroni.

Which was adorable.

Andy: Did you say you used to hang around a tattoo shop for your adolescents?

Nice.

Helen: I had at one point nearly 20 piercings.

We can, we can deal with this on a later on, a later podcast

Andy: is a post credits thing rather than an introductory section.

So let me just wrestle us back on course.

And so we're here to talk about everything that's happened since the

last edition of the magazine came out.

Uh, one thing that has broken out that we like to keep an eye on is,

uh, the Reform Party, which completely unaccountably and unpredictably

has fallen to a bout of infighting.

Helen: couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of lad.

Adam: like we said, it was going to in that, in that podcast back episode back in

July, straight after the general election.

I think at that point, maybe I said we, I, I reckon probably six months

they managed seven and a half nearly.

So,

Andy: really surprised when I saw those rats trooping into that sack, I

thought harmony is bound to ensue

and I'm gutted.

So, um,

this is to do

Helen: cause of this is Rupert Lowe, who is the MP for Great Yarmouth and

former chairman of Southampton Football Club, who was elected as a Reform MP.

He gave an interview to Andrew Pierce of the Daily Mail, in which he said a

series of slightly mad things like I'm the One-Eyed Man and he's the one who comes

out on top in the kingdom of the blind.

You sort of thought, where are we going with this?

But among them, he also said, uh, we don't wanna be a protest party led by a messiah.

And if Nigel Farage wants to succeed, he needs some good people around him.

And, oh, fire, fire.

I know people are talking about me as a potential prime minister,

but it's far too early to be talking about that sort of thing.

And someone who thought it was far too early to be talking about that sort of

thing was Nigel Farage because the day after the interview came out, um, Lee

Anderson, 30p Lee, he's known in these pages, uh, who is a Reform MP and Z Yusef.

The, um, chairman of the party revealed that actually at some previous point,

complaints had been made both about Rupert Low and about people in his office.

And as a, sadly, as a consequence of this, while they really looked

into this and gave him really good due process, he was going to be

suspended, uh, from the party whip.

Rupert Lowe, perhaps not unreasonably, is uh, decided that

this is sort of a revenge whacking,

Andy: it's extraordinary timing they just finally got declaring that

paperwork about all the complaints about him after he was read about

Adam: But it was amazing on Sunday morning.

'cause Richard Tice, who is, we've named nearly all of the

Reform Reform mps now, haven't we?

Uh, but he went on Laura Kuenssberg to say, no, no, no.

It's completely unrelated.

It's just absolutely, you know, any, any claims of bullying or

physical intimidation of absolutely got to be taken seriously.

Meanwhile, Nigel Farage writing in the Sunday Telegraph

pretty much said, yeah, yeah,

yeah,

no, totally.

yeah.

Yeah, He's completely out of order.

He is challenging me.

Helen: it was like the OJ Simpson book.

If I did it, it was like, if I had whacked him, then it

would've been very successful.

'cause I'm great.

But there also, it's a pattern of behavior.

And Nigel Farage's party kept the Brexit party and now Reform is

that anybody who goes against Nigel Farage does not last very long.

You know, we talk about these as populous parties, but all of them

essentially are Nigel Farage vehicles.

UKIP still exists by the way, but it collapsed as a, as a force almost.

You know, as soon as Nigel Farage left it really

Adam: well, not for

the first time, 'cause he stepped down, didn't he?

And then he came back a couple of times, but then it, at one point it did all

seem to just slide out of his grasp when we had people like Ger Batten and

Helen: Oh, Oh, there's gonna be a little quiz on, on some of this later.

Oh yeah.

Look forward to

Adam: But

Andy: Can I just check Rupert Lowe is, as we say, one of the five.

Yep.

And he's the one who Elon Musk spotted he had leadership potential

on Twitter during January's.

Um, Keir Starmer is a paeoadophile enabler spree

of of tweeting that Rupert Lowe was the one who when, Musk and Farage fell

out... Musk said, this is the guy.

Helen: Yes.

That's, that's the proximate cause really, of all of this grumpiness is that if

you're Nigel Forage, you think Rupert Lowe's got a bit too big for his boots.

And if you're Rupert Low, you think Nigel Farage is actually a bit of a softie.

So Rupert Lowe, for example, thinks that we need mass deportations.

He said, you know, we should have, uh, for people who arrive on small boats,

they should be put on an island somewhere and given quotes, minimal food rations.

he's one of those people who revels in the idea of being cruel to illegal immigrants,

not just merely saying, as most of British mainstream politics does now.

We need strong borders and it's fine to be concerned about these things.

So there's a, there's, there's two distinct problems here.

One of which is that that type of very cruel, overtly populist right

politics has a pretty hard ceiling on it in Britain, and it is much

lower than the amount of votes that reform got at the last election.

So Nigel Farage, I think is very well aware of that, that if he pandered too

much to that tendency, he would lose people who maybe once were labor voters

in those northern seats, for example.

, and you know, then there's just the kind of, yeah, as you say, the

kind of personality aspect of it.

Rupert Lowe is.

Also another way that he represents, reforms voting base is that

he's a very online baby boomer.

Right?

He just, he tweets a lot or other posts a lot on x. Ever since this,

this scandal broke, he has been on there constantly putting out statements

saying, I have actually spoken to them.

My lawyer says this, and the lawyer comes back to him.

He's been backed up online by Andrew Bridged potato loving friend of this

Andy: property.

Helen: You know, these are, this is a kind of distinct, and, and that's

what, as I said before in this podcast, one of the things that dis, you know,

distinguishes Tori supporters from Reform supporters is that very online ness.

You know, the fact is that If you are somebody who's aged over 60 and is

spending a lot of time on X, that is the Rupert lowest tendency within reform.

But it's not by any means the whole description of their, their

support and what they could possibly

Adam: capture.

And it's also a field that Kemi Badenoch has pretty much got to itself, isn't it?

At the moment?

Helen: Bless her.

I, you know, I had a steak sandwich at the weekend and I was trying

to work out whether or not this was Kemi Badenoch approved or not.

Steak for lunch, good sandwich for lunch, bad

Andy: Because reform, they're reasonably left winging, aren't they?

On things like economics.

I mean, they, they, they talk a lot about nationalizing various

Adam: things,

Yeah.

Nationalizing water companies and things.

Helen: Another big, big split within reform and, and, and intentions

within the party between the kind of much more thatcherite Reaganite.

That's the natural Farage tendency, which is all about deregulating

the city and wealth creation stuff.

That versus, as you say, the manifesto from the kind of mid 2010s was very

much, you know, they're not gonna be saying, let's get rid of the triple lock.

You, you know, you people need to le learn to fend for yourselves.

Right.

In certain senses, they are quite protectionist,

Adam: was the, the manifesto that said that people should have to start

dressing up to go to the theater again.

Wasn't it?

Helen: And the circle line should be a circle again.

I proved

Andy: sorry.

That was in a

Adam: That was you kept manifesto.

That was one of the periods where Nigel Farage stepped

down and haw was it Lord Ran

or someone to

Helen: went on an interview with John Sopel, in which they asked him about

a series of bananas things and he was like, I'll be honest with you, I haven't,

I didn't say it like this, but he essentially, the line was, I haven't read

Andy: it.

Helen: Of course I haven't read it.

He I, anyway, I thought it would be nice given that my main

takeaway about everything related to reform is Nigel always wins.

Okay.

I thought it'd be nice to have a little quiz about people who are sadly no

longer with Nigel or, you know, people who've cycled out of parties that he's

founded even after he's left them.

So

Adam: happened

Helen: UKIP's 2013 Women in Politics event that led to

Godfrey Bloom leaving the party?

You might not even need the multiple

Andy: choice on this.

ding, ding.

ding.

ding.

Go on.

He called them sluts.

Helen: He joked that a group of female activists was sluts

for not cleaning behind the

Andy: fridge.

That's right.

And he meant that kind of

Adam: sluts.

That was what was so magnificent, was the most old fashioned

use of the word slut.

Anyway, it had to be sort of explained

to everyone, no, you should be taking offense, but

in a different way.

Andy: Yeah,

Helen: In the 2024 general election, what unorthodox campaigning tactic

did Yip leader Lois Perry adopt.

Did she A, change her last name to Brexit?

B hired a bulldog to attend all her events with her, or C endorse Nigel Farage,

even though he was in a different party.

Andy: I'll go with Bulldog.

Adam: No, you see, I think that's the false one.

'cause Andrew Rossendale

famously, but uh, had it took his bulldog out in, its in its

union jack coat, didn't he?

So I think that's the red

Andy: herring.

Adam: I

think the bulldog is the red

Andy: herring

Tory mp.

Adam: Yeah.

Andrew Rossendale, uh, MP for

Helen: in Essex Romford.

He, um, he used to send out constituency leaflets in which some of his spicier

views were attributed to the Bullock.

The sort de plausible

Adam: It wasn't me, it was the

Andy: blame the dog.

Adam: That's called implausible

deniability,

Helen: was like Winston's very worried about illegal migration.

Yeah.

Anyway,

Adam: I'm gonna change the name to Brexit.

Helen: Of course, it was Shin endorse Nigel Farage, even though he was

in, okay, so Andy's leads one Nil.

Stephen Wolf was notoriously pictured, sparked out on the floor of the

European parliament after an altercation with an aptly named fellow Kopp.

MEP.

What was the MEP

Adam: Buzz.

Helen: Alright.

And you don't even need the multiple choice.

I can give you them if you want, and then you get first go at it.

Jeff, Dan Punchy.

Jeffrey Decker, Mike Hookem or David

Adam: Nutter?

It was Mike Hookem.

Helen: It was Mike Hooker.

Hook

Andy: Mm. And they, they had a fight.

Mano Ill

Helen: Mano Mano.

I mano.

Yeah.

That

Andy: Yeah.

That was the phrase one of them

Helen: Yeah.

Uh, Mike Hookem, uh, over whether or not Stephen Wolf was going to try and defect

to the conservatives, would you like to know what happened next to Steven Wolf?

Adam: got taken to

Helen: hospital.

Well, yes, that's true.

But he resigned from Kopp in 2016 saying it become ungovernable without Farage.

Round one.

He later tried to join reform as a candidate, but wasn't accepted.

Thanks to Nikki Sinclair a Kopp, MEP from 2090 2010, which unexpectedly woke record.

Does the party hold.

Andy: it was sort of both the head and the deputy head of the

party being women first in the uk,

Helen: kind of in the right genre.

She was the first British transgender parliamentarian.

Oh.

Would you like to know what happened to her in, uh, her membership of Yu

Andy: resigned and left the party.

Helen: She was expelled from the party.

After objected into the extreme views of the EFD grouping, that

Kopp sat within European parliament.

She then founded the We demand a referendum party, although

it was basically just her.

Adam: Okay.

So I

demand

a referendum kinda under trade descriptions.

Helen: Okay.

Which of the following people elected as a representative of one

of Nigel Farage's parties did not subsequently quit or get expelled?

Okay.

Douglas Carswell, mark Reckless.

Nigel Farage, former express journalist Patrick O. Flynn,

former leader Suzanne Evans.

Calvin Robinson.

A priest ish.

Carl Benjamin.

A k Sagan of a CAD UKIP leader, Henry Bolton.

Mark Meam.

A K count.

Dan, you could leader Diane.

James,

Andy: I've forgotten the question.

Helen: One of them is still in the party that they

Andy: joined.

Helen: Okay.

A party that was at one point founded by an LED by Nigel Farage.

Adam: I'm gonna go Diane

Helen: James.

Oh,

Andy: Henry Bolton.

Helen: Henry Bolton.

I'm afraid he was no confidence.

Does Uip leader of his girlfriend's racist text about Meghan Markle?

Adam: Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Helen: Yes.

Diane James lasted 18 days as leader, own less than half a

trust, and she was then coed.

She left to be an independent, the person who joined pp and is

as of this morning still EU KIPP's lead spokesman Calvin Robinson.

No.

Adam: No.

Yeah, you were joking.

When did he join?

Helen: He only joined like in the last year or so.

So it's a post Nigel join of Yuki, but he, he joined and he, he stud

Adam: but he's living in America, isn't he?

Helen: he?

oh,

Adam: someone sent me a Crown Crowdfunder to buy my house in America.

Helen: Did you

Adam: contribute?

Oddly, no.

Helen: Douglas Carswell quit in 2017.

Mark Reckless quit uip joined the conservative group, left to

be an independent, joined the Brexit party, then joined the

Abolished, the Welsh Assembly Party.

Reason, the Brexit when achieved, then joined Reform.

Naja Raj has previously discussed.

Quit several times.

Patrick O. Flynn left for the SDP.

In 2018, Suzanne Evans left over.

Gerald Batten appointing Tommy Robinson as an advisor.

Carl Benjamin was also adjoined at the same time as Tommy Robinson.

He was expelled for his extreme views.

Uh, count Dan left after internal disputes and then most recently ran

for the Scottish Libertarian party.

Adam: Tommy Robinson's been, uh, the root of a couple of these, haven't they?

'cause the whole, um, the altercation with Musk back in January when, when

he said that Rupert Lowe would be a better leader, that was over, Rupert

Low would be more friendly to Tommy Robinson joining, joining the party,

which is obviously is, is is kinda the red line for Nigel Farage, isn't

Helen: it?

Yeah.

Can

Adam: I

Andy: ask you,

Helen: Helen?

Yeah.

Andy: That

quiz?

Yeah.

What has it

taught us

have we learned that there is a real dearth of talent and only

far is capable of filling the space on the right and persuading

people that his ideas are decent?

'cause he is very persuasive.

He has attracted millions of votes in various elections.

All these other people seem to be absolute no hopers.

Why

Helen: I, I'm, I'm really reluctant to go along with the great man theory

of history, but I think if you look at both Nigel Farage and Donald Trump,

, they matter in historical terms.

I don't think, as you say that the British radical right would've got to the

stage that it had without Nigel Farage.

Now if you talk to Dominic Cummings, he's will say, there's a reason we quarantined

all those people and leave EU and didn't let them anywhere near vote leave.

You know, we needed to build a bigger coalition, but he's got.

An appeal, which is related to him being kind of upbeat and

smoking a fag and drinking a pint.

And you know, he's just got a personality and a kind of charisma

and a style And, you know, he has occasional flashes of nastiness.

But I think some of the things that you see with the, some of the less successful

and more extreme right people on that list is that the nastiness is overly exposed.

Right?

With Farage, there's a kind of bonna

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Helen: And I think if you'd start just talking about how you wanna

deport people that is in Britain, at least a kind of losing proposition.

And, and Nigel Farage has always been very careful about walking the line

about you just asking questions or saying what legitimate concerns or framing

it as a part of a wider anti-elitism.

And then some of the people who try and do a Nigel RA's impression just come out

and go, you know, I don't like foreigners.

And people go a bit much.

Adam: And that's what's run him into trouble more recently, hasn't it?

'cause you know, this is a man who was also on the record saying,

you know, Putin is the most impressive politician in the world.

And, and, and being very, very much on Donald Trump's side throughout everything

Helen: Trump being in the White House this time around and the kind of more unchained

version of Trump is a real problem for him and indeed for all of Europe's popula.

And Ben Ansel, the, uh, political scientist has just written a very

good subset post about this, but being tied to Putin is a real problem.

You know, if elites have a go at you and you're a populist politician for

being, you know, chaotic or whatever it might be, or being extreme,

that doesn't necessarily hurt you.

'cause you kind of say, well, you would say that, wouldn't you?

You're just scared of me.

You're scared of people like me.

But being tied to an enemy, a foreign enemy is really bad.

And it's obviously something that, um, Farage is, you know, it's, it's sensitive

to, 'cause he was on Russia today, you know, he has, tried to kind of triangulate

on the Ukraine war in a way that, the other politicians, you know, kamy bad,

not being an obvious example, have not.

Uh, and that I think that could really, really

Adam: is literal political nor shock.

It was what did for Jeremy Corbin in the end wasn't, it was the moment

in 2018 where he appeared to be sympathetic to, to Russia and said

that we should send samples of the, of the, the poison that was found in, in

bury over to Russia.

Not to

poison put in, but

just say, okay, no, no, no.

Definitely not

mine never seen it

Helen: before No.

Yeah.

So I think that's, I think again, that's another real problem that the, that

they have at the moment and populist parties across Europe have, is that that

feeling that they are not nationalists in the way that they would like to be.

That they're now in an alliance with a kind of, you know,

Andy: know, are globalists.

Helen: they're globalists.

They are globalists, but unfortunately their, yeah, their set of allies are, are

Russia and Iran and, you know, and China.

Um, so I think that's, I think that's really damaging to them.

But the main thing we've learned is that it's very

Andy: funny.

right now we come to our second story of the week, which is from, I'd say the

other end of the political spectrum.

Just about to reform.

This is about the BBC because Charlotte Moore, who's the chief Content Officer

and has been for some years, has announced she's off, uh, the BBC's new

chairman, Sammy Shaw, has given his first big interview where he's been

talking about the direction of the BBC.

We are coming up, the BBC's license to operate runs out.

And it's all about how they're going to pay for, , what comes

next, the following decade.

'cause these things are normally done every, every 10 years.

So it's a time.

Of change, just trying to, I'm bidding for some documentary voiceovers at the

moment.

Helen: Tom Hanks can't take all of the Atom resort.

You could do it.

The gentle puffing

Andy: So they're in a bit of a state as is TV in general.

Adam: Yeah, I mean the Charlotte Moore thing, um, it just seems to have taken

everyone by surprise as far as I can tell.

No one really has a a, a brilliant explanation for as yet.

She, Moore had accumulated an enormous amount of power around herself at the BBC.

I mean she was, by the end of it, I think she was chief Content officer, which is

basically sort of lord of everything.

It really is.

She'd taken over so many briefs from other people.

You know, we used to have, um, channel controllers who used to be, you know,

a big deal back in the days of when it was Michael Grade canceling Dr.

Who or Alan Yentob getting rid of El Dorado.

You know, these were

kinda like household name type people

Andy: out every single episode of this pocket.

Last time it was the wheel Tappers and Shunters Club or something.

This time it's

Adam: El

Dorado Oh, come on.

El Dorado's much more recent than that.

Andy: So what you're saying is

Charlotte Moore was a kind of, uh, Cromwell

Adam: figure.

She drew in An

awful lot of different parts of the BBC took over the whole of TV and radio,

which used to be separate divisions.

Andy: Because it's a really, really byzantine organization.

There's a director general.

Then there are about 50 layers of different management soup.

Adam: Yeah.

there's this whole other wing called BBC studios, which is the commercial

wing that no one quite understands the

Helen: No.

And then, and then it will have super Indies like, so it'll have independent,

um, production companies that are nonetheless wholly owned by the BBC and

the bit that there, people often within the b BBC say this to me and I want to go.

It's that just still the B, B, C

Adam: then

Apparently not.

No.

So, and also BBC studios making programs for other people

as well as are ITV studios.

It's all a very

Andy: confusing

lens.

So it's loco, I, I don't understand

Helen: of it.

Adam: but Charlotte Moore was this extremely powerful figure go and she

was definitely in the running to be, you know, a future director general that may

be a remote controller on our last issue.

Speculated that that may be what it's done, that you, these days you

are not gonna get to be director general and, head of the whole BBC

without some experience out there in the, um, in the independent sector.

Andy: So what, the main.

Problems facing the BBC as it comes up for the, the charter renewal in 2027.

Adam: big one has to be the future of the license fee and whether that is

gonna carry on, be, I think, really interesting by the way that Shair Samir

Charles, the chairman of the BBC's first.

Interview that he did was with the times.

Uh, so a Rupert Murdoch paper that has been strongly ideologically opposed to

sort of the very existence of the BBC and certainly the public funding of the BBC

through the license fee for many years.

So, you know, that's, that's, that's getting right out there and not, not

talking necessarily to the friendliest of sources, but the debate over the

license fee has changed enormously, um, in the fact that these days, you

know, most of us are, or those who can afford it, at least are, are subscribing

to various other forms of television.

You know, be that Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney Plus.

There are absolutely so many of them out there.

Um, so the, the idea that you just have a sort of universal public broadcast to

service, uh, which you are obliged to pay, um, currently 169 pound, 50 a year

for, I think is much, much less, tenable.

And certainly Lisa Landy, who is the culture secretary we've

seen, has been floating ideas of different ways of funding.

I mean, a very bizarre incident before Christmas where she floated, or those

close to Lisa, Andy floated the idea of, uh, of it being funded out of

taxation only to have that pretty much immediately shot down by the

government of which she was apart.

But, you know, there is very definitely a, some, some, some

thinking about what's gonna happen next going on at very, very high

Helen: levels.

Shaw's theory is, uh, one of the things he talks about in the interview is the idea

of a kind of, some kind of levy that is essentially like proportional tax, right?

I think one of the things that he says, which I think is a fair point, is that

it's not fair that it is essentially a flat rate of 170 quid no matter what

your income, whether you're a millionaire or somebody who's struggling to get

by,

Adam: which I think is utterly bonkers because surely the only

way of justifying it is going, no, it's not a tax on everyone.

And if you suddenly say, well, it's related to the size of your property,

which was specifically what you floated, if you've got a sort of a five bedroom

property, well you might have five tallies in it, so you need to pay more for that.

I, that, that one just seemed to be a complete non-starter to me.

I think it's a bizarre one.

I think, I mean this is absolutely only my personal opinion.

I think at some point they are gonna have to go over to a subscription model.

And I think that the BBC are going completely the wrong way about that

because the way for the BBC to sell itself in a marketplace is to say, we

are the BBC, this is the stuff that we do that no one else is going to do.

And that is enormously appreciated by people in this country.

However much they, they might moan about the license fee.

BBC news is massively trusted.

It's still where people end up.

I mean the, the BBC News channel itself, which I still think of

as being this slightly obscure thing that only nerves like media.

It's got a reach of over 10 million a month.

I mean, the people are at any sort of national event.

That's where people go immediately be that, you know, the, the royal deaths

or coronations or just, you know, sort of terror attacks or anything.

That is the first port of call for a lot of people.

The other thing that people are showing is that they are willing

to pay for news these days.

They're not willing to pay for newspapers necessarily, but there is an appetite.

People are, as things fracture more, there is an appetite for

paying for trusted news sources.

Be that substack of people who you, whose, whose writing you like and you trust or.

I mean, GB News is charging considerably more.

Judge GB News has membership.

You can watch GB News anyway.

It's, it, it's on, it's on, um, Freeview or, or, or, or satellite.

But there are people out there, there are GB news, uh, viewers who are

willing to pay up to something like 200 pounds a year to be members of GB News

and get exclusive behind the scenes

Helen: footage.

What on earth do you get for 200 credit?

Do you get to kind

Adam: like

Helen: go on and shout at one of the hosts or

Adam: something like that?

You get to be racist in the comments, uh, as we revealed in, in, in an issue.

A couple of editions back.

And you also get exciting things like Christopher Chop telling viewers

why he decided to defect from the Telegraph and go and work for GB News

Andy: okay.

So 170 quid a year?

Yeah.

Is what?

That's about 14 pounds

Adam: month.

something like

Helen: that?

Yeah.

Andy: So most other.

Platforms are charging.

Not a huge amount, less than

Adam: that.

Netflix 155 pound 88.

Okay.

So for Disney 109, just to give you a

couple of

Andy: of comparisons.

Okay.

So for Netflix, for example, what you are getting is a,

Adam: a lot of

Andy: not brilliant TV and movies and some really good ones as well.

That, that you

will

Helen: be

able to

how could you be so rude about with Love, Meghan?

And I know

Andy: love

it.

, I suppose the, the thing I want to know is how on earth can these

things be compared with each other?

It's really hard.

Adam: And

then well they can't because the BBC is providing you apart

from anything else with radio.

Um, which is an entire thing on top of that.

But also there's an awful lot of stuff that the BBC does, which I

think is the stuff that justifies its existence as a public service

broadcaster and is appreciated by people.

But that seems to be the stuff that they're insistent on cutting back on.

So last year we had massive cuts to BBC local radio, which

is a, a huge thing for a really unserved older audience out there.

there was also, there were also attempts to cut back on the funding of sort of

orchestras and choirs and that support of music, which isn't just about supposedly

elitist, kind of classical music either.

'cause the other thing they cut back on was BBC introducing, which

is a real thing where there a local radio and, and t TV people are out

there in communities supporting kind of younger bands coming through.

And that music industry that's incredibly hard to break into

or to make any money from.

You know, these, these are the sort of things that a public service

broadcaster ought to be doing.

And you are not gonna find Netflix going out there and doing that.

You're certainly not gonna find Disney going out and doing that.

I mean this might be sort of thetical, but, but things like Call the Midwife

or vigil could sit perfectly well on any of these subscription services.

Helen: I think that's a bit harsh.

'cause I'm not sure actually.

I mean, caller Mouth is now an absolutely massive banker of a hit.

But if you had tried to get that going as an independent commission for

Netflix, I dunno if they would've said, I mean, a every TV production company

you talk to, you says, we don't really wanna do period drama and you go.

You, you seem to be doing a lot of it nonetheless.

But, but then one of the things that was, uh, reported on the Sunday Times

this weekend is about the kind of nightmare state of drum actually.

The, um, the guardian observer had some stuff on this too, about

sort of even very senior producers working as shelf stackers now.

'cause it's, you know, the big, a big drought in that industry.

But essentially saying that the problem is you can't do things, you

can't do anything approaching prestige TV or even normal Sunday night TV

now without a co-production sponsor.

The guy who was behind commissioning, um, Mr. Bates against the, versus the

post office said I couldn't, I couldn't

Andy: do

that So basically the Bess or IV in that case stump up some of the money and a

Helen: bigger,

Yeah, about half often.

And then a bit more half comes from a, an international, um, sponsor.

Now, you know, Netflix did have Toxic Town, which is an, um, one of those

kind of issue and events dramas.

So it is possible, but I don't, I, it really worries me about that, that,

and I, I sort of take your point, Adam, but I just think people need

to sort of buy into the B, B, C as a.

Concept.

And I, I always wonder if you strip away the bits that people really like stuff

that would do well in the commercial sector, like strictly come dancing,

say, then it just, it sort of denude the kind of round offering of everything

Andy: that

they

do.

You're saying you have to have the big shows in a way to justify the smaller

ones as well, even though the smaller ones are the thing that you do that are

Helen: unique.

Well, I guess the main problem is when you're talking about this kind of

cutbacks is the linear channels they've just got to fill at least, you know,

even if, um, BBC only broadcast in the evenings or whatever, they've got to,

well now online, but you know what I mean?

They, for BBC one and BBC two, they've got to fill 24 hours of scheduling every day.

Netflix doesn't, I mean, it's not got any pretension to that.

You could obviously watch Netflix 24 hours a day if you wanted to, but I

wonder at some point, do the linear channels end and at that point that

Adam: it's become, I

think again, that's something that's inevitable and I'm not talking about

that being, um, um, in the near future.

But I mean, if you're talking about planning for charter periods,

charter periods are 10, 10 years each, and you've gotta be looking

to the one after that as well.

So I mean, I mean, at some point that is the thing that always amazes me is not

only the number of people who are still watching linear TV and just switching

on and seeing what's on, it's the number of TV listings, magazines that still

seem to be doing really, really well.

It's one of the great mysteries of journalism.

There's about five or six different options of matter, and you just think,

well, but, but, but, so people are still going out with their highlight

pen and putting the ring round things.

So I mean, , that is still very, very definitely there.

But, um, The co-production thing is kind of an argument against that

as well, that maybe they should be looking at doing more things like that.

I mean, so a doctor who at the moment is a co-production between the BBC

and Bad Wolf Studios, isn't it?

Which is Ru t Davis and Judy Gardner

Helen: set

up

and funded by Disney

Adam: funded by Disney and funded by Disney and outside of Britain.

It goes out on the Disney Channel.

Now that doesn't seem to have worked out that well.

There are rumors that that, that Disney are very much thinking of, of,

of pulling out, pulling out of that at the end of this particular deal.

Andy: but

that, and that sounds like more of an international thing anyway, or

it'll give an international skew, whereas what works really well, like

the local radio you're saying is things that actually reflect where

Adam: people

are

where people are and give you a, a, an offering.

I mean, the other thing about local radio is that that is a network that any

news provider would kill for, isn't it?

It's people embedded in their communities with connections to that community so

that if something happens in Runcorn or Witness or Southampton or whatever,

you've got boots on the ground basically.

It, it, it's out there.

It's, it's a really justifiable thing.

And the other bizarre thing that I find that the BBC are doing in

terms of when you're talking about stuff that will work on streaming

services, if you go to the iPlayer, there's quite bizarre things on there.

So Meghan Markle, another show of hers suits, which is old, it's

from before she, before she married Prince Harry, all eight, seven or

eight series or something of that are all up on the eye player as is.

And this amazed me, the simple life with Paris Hilton and Nicole

Helen: Richie

Adam: Which was on when I was in my twenties.

Helen: I'm gonna sell you something that's gonna really upset you, which is that

that stuff is on iPlayer because it's for people your age of my age about stuff

that they remember of their youth, whereas actual, today's young people are not

watching even iPlayer, they're watching

TikTok and YouTube.

and that's the, that, I mean, that's the main thing is how does how does the

BBC capture anybody under the age of 40?

Really?

you are now entering the kind of old demographics that, that, that

people from traditional media are

Adam: educated to.

And as happened when newspapers went online and started largely, um, flogging

their wares through Facebook and Twitter, most people aren't aware of who made

something or where it was originally.

Um, I mean, you know, if you're watching an awful lot of TV is watching small

clips on either TikTok or YouTube.

Now it might have a little BBC logo in the corner, but, but hardly

anyone is going to notice that.

And as far as they're concerned, they're watching it on TikTok or YouTube.

That's where

Helen: their

loyalties

lie,

One thing that was really pleasing was the fact that Mr. Beast, you know,

the Megaton YouTuber has had a lot of trouble making a mainstream reality

TV show, and it's one of those things that's quite pleasing where it's like,

oh, actually the gradient for making big telly is actually quite tough.

You know, it's not like these new guys have got all the answers.

Actually, sometimes there are things that are, that are really

genuinely hard that we just don't appreciate enough 'cause only

Andy: good

people

do

them.

The basic problem is that all TV's in a huge amount of trouble.

The BBC's just a huge example of a huge

Helen: tape TV maker.

a similar thing happened to video games where they, all the

consoles got into a race about how good they could look, right?

They just needed huge amounts of computer power because what they thought

people wanted was the raindrops to look really realistic on the end of your

gun as you shot someone in the face.

Sorry, I've been playing a lot of Far Cry this weekend.

I have done a lot of that and actually some of the best and most beloved video

games are actually pretty kinda lo-fi, but what it meant is it put them into a kind

of arms race on, on graphical processing and, and that jacked up all of the prices.

It meant that often titles were released when they weren't really that particularly

finished, and you had to have a day one update and a sort of weirdly similar

thing has happened with tv, which is that the streamers entering the market

has just jacked up the quote unquote quality level of anything, right?

You had all of those interviews around the Crown that were like, we remade the

entirety of Diana's wedding dress and people's expectations, rather than just

going, oh, she's put her on a white dress.

You know, sort of that

Andy: for vaguely

Helen: do have gone up, which is again, the story of what's happened to Dr.

Who, right?

It used to be the fandom loved the fact it was all filmed in a quarry.

They'd be like, oh, there's a quarry episode standing

in for an alien PA planet.

Now it's CGI up the wazoo, and it doesn't actually make it any more lovable.

Doesn't make the stories any better, it just makes it a hell of a lot more spendy.

But that's deemed to be what audiences demand.

A level of spendy that means it's costing them two, 3 million, um, dollars an hour

Adam: the other thing that I think will happen is the death of soaps.

Um, because they are one thing that I don't, I mean, they're, they're not doing

well now on linear TV channels, neither East Enders, which has just celebrated

its 40th anniversary are, or Coronation Street, know, that we just, right down

there from the 26 million who watched De and Angie, which was obviously was

exceptional, but right down from the sort of tens and billions that they used to.

And also they don't work on streamers as we discovered with

Amazon Prime had that really weird decision to bring back neighbors.

Uh, after it went out a couple of years ago and, and have rethought that it

just wasn't getting the viewing figures.

So whether we'll be seeing East Enders through to its 50th

anniversary or Coronation Street through to, its, where are we at now?

70th

75th.

Who is that

Andy: that just 'cause they're very expensive to, because you'd

think they're like podcasts.

They're just podcasts with visuals, you know, you can make

them for ages and ages and ages.

The quality doesn't have to be very high present, company accepted.

Adam: but I think, again, as Helen was saying, it's the pressure on

ramping up the quality of it and the, the, the, the events of it.

I mean they used to be episodes East Enders, if you've watched them on uk

Gold of was kind of was will lofty get his sewing machine to work and

um, will ha will Ethel take little Willie out for a walk today And these

days, you know, it's how many times have they blown up the Queen Vic now

it seems sound about twice a week.

Andy: And yet one of the big successes of BBC two only connect.

is made for nothing.

The prize is a piece of Perspex.

It gets huge viewing figures.

It gets really, really decent

Adam: viewing

figures.

All all of those late afternoon quizzes as well do, I mean,

you, your pointless is and

Helen: you,

Adam: um,

anything involving Bradley Walsh,

Helen: I always feel, bad for the people on Pointless 'cause they have the thing

we know and the jackpot's only like 1,250 'cause it's the first day and

then there's two of them and they're like, what are you gonna spend it on?

They're like, you can see in their eyes they're going sort of just about a

holiday, isn't it?

Andy: now let's take in a little bit of glorious spring sunshine in Riyadh.

Uh, let's get

Al. Yes, the

currency.

Thank you.

Helen: no.

Okay.

Adam: no.

Andy.

Andy: Let's go to Saudi Arabia, uh, where all sorts of very consequential

meetings have been happening recently.

So the initial US Russian summits over ending the war in Ukraine, uh,

took place there a month or so ago, and Vladimir Zelensky recently flew

there for meetings with, uh, US officials with the same aim in mind.

And it's an interesting place, not least because Britain has very, very,

very strong ties to Saudi Arabia and the role of Saudi Arabia is changing.

Britain seems to be absolutely determined to clinging on it's extraordinary.

I went through the last six prime ministers we've had.

They've

all.

I wouldn't say, not put a foot wrong with Saudi Arabia, but they've, they've,

they've clung very closely to nurse.

Boris Johnson was just there for a half

Helen: term holiday.

Wasn't he just, um, in fact, actually, when, when, you know, one of my favorite

media outlets carried Johnson's Instagram feed was posting all the way through the

half term holiday, these gorgeous vista of what looked like the kind of Maldives,

just like lovely white sand beaches, adorable blonde head backs of children's

heads because she desperately wants to post pictures of her kids, but also

Adam: knows

that

she's, they haven't got faces.

The hair just goes all the

Helen: around leading to

Adam: Dad

long running.

Helen: Adam's Long

running conspiracy

theory,

that there's a family of

Andy: cousin,

eats,

Adam: running.

Helen: around.

Um, but anyways, and the end of the week she said, oh, by the way, of

course it was the Red Sea Marriott.

I looked it up.

She said, it is quite expensive.

I thought, are we, are we paying for this ourselves?

Who knows, if you are paying for yourself, the entry level room is a thousand pounds

a night.

Um, and I suspect they may have had one of the

Andy: rather more charming

Helen: fillers.

But you know, it's part of the Mohammad bin Salman, the Crown Prince, and

kind of de facto ruler at the moment.

It's part of his Red Sea project where he wants to put a huge amount

of investment into, turning Saudi Arabia into a real tourist destination.

So this is all, as you're saying, part of this kind of wider image

rehab.

No longer will we be the place of people getting their hands chopped

off and throwing homosexuals off buildings and not letting women leave

the house with their a buyers on.

Instead, come to our beautiful Japanese sushi banquet and you might run into

Andy: Boris

Johnson.

Yes, exactly.

This is all part of a thing that is called Vision 2030.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, which Saudi Arabia is very keen to talk about, broadly it means

they want to make themselves less dependent on oil and more dependent on,

Helen: things

Andy: like

owning Influencers,

influencers, and owning all sports, uh, which are growth areas.

so that is certainly what they want to talk about.

There is a very convincing counter narrative that actually a lot of the

reforms, quote unquote, that have been made of are, are rather skin deep.

And if you say anything, uh, critical about Mohammad bin

Salman, you will be in prison, uh,

Helen: very,

very

quickly.

Well, my Atlantic colleague, Graham Wood, went and did a very big cover profile

a couple of years ago with Mohammad bin Salman, and he mentioned he's got,

um, MBS as he's known, he's got a tick.

You know, he's got, he, he does this thing where he looks like he's sort

of gulping and it is completely, forbidden anywhere in Saudi media.

This is like one of these things that is just unspeakable.

And, and actually I was going to read the Foreign and Commonwealth Office,

um, advice about going to Saudi Arabia and they said, you know, do

not criticize anybody in the regime.

Also, it's possible they might dig up your social media comments

from years and years ago,

Andy: Well,

In October, 2018, a Saudi journalist, Jamal Khashoggi,

uh, was invited to go to the,

Helen: uh, the

Saudi, it

Andy: a Consulate,

cons

Adam: in Istanbul.

Yeah.

Helen: yeah.

Andy: Istanbul In

Istanbul uh, where he was murdered.

And it is believed by various western intelligence agencies

that this was done on, on,

Adam: in fact, with

Andy: the say so, in effect on the instructions of Moham bin Salman, that led

to a distinct, uh, withdrawal by the West from all sorts of various Saudi ventures.

There is a, a thing that gets called Davos in the desert, which is a, is

a big Saudi deal making jamboree.

Lots of banks, lots of governments didn't go.

They went, back extremely quickly.

And this is the thing.

So I did, I did have a look through the record of the, the last six

prime ministers on, on Saudi.

So Ki Steiner went, uh, in December The, the thing he said, uh, the last

time someone else went to Saudi was, when he accused Boris Johnson in 2022

of 'going cap in hand from dictator

to

dictator, he's now seemed to realize that

Helen: is

quite a

good

thing

Adam: to do,

Helen: Right.

Andy: saying we have to win contracts and investment around the world at

UAE and Saudi Arabia are key partners.

So.

That tune really has changed.

Richie Soak met him in 2022, invited him over in 2023.

Liz Trusts got in with a call when she became Prime Minister.

Sadly, there wasn't time to take things any further, but

Adam: there wasn't time for

Andy: a

waitress delivery.

No, exactly.

They, they got along famously, basically, uh, Boris visited in 2022.

He was actually there, uh, in the country about 10 days before Khashoggi was

murdered, which is better than being there 10 days after Khashoggi was murdered.

But nonetheless,

Adam: he

was

quite vocal about the Khashoggi

Andy: at

the time,

wasn't

he?

He was.

He

Adam: He was.

He was.

Um,

Andy: Um, but probably not now.

No, he seems to have, uh, recovered, uh, his, his bonomy Theresa May is an

interest 'cause she's, she was PM at the time of Khashoggi murder and, um, made

very clear what what she thought about it.

And, uh, a few years later she announced in the register of members'

interest, she'd received 107,000 pounds, uh, for a speaking event with

the Saudi Arabian government, the World Travel and Tourism Council.

David Cameron, you may remember, went camping with MBS in the desert when he

was working with Lex Greensville trying to

Helen: shove his,

um,

I remember that lovely photo of them in

Andy: Europe.

Exactly.

So it does feel like when you become Prime Minister, you get, you

know, usher into Downing Street.

You get given the letter to write to the nuclear submarine commanders,

and then you get told, here's why we're gonna be nice to Saudi Arabia.

And it's financial, it's weapon sales there and investment here.

Adam: And to be fair, it has been absolutely transactional, hasn't it?

I mean, ever since Tony Blair canceled the investigation into the Al Yama

ma, um, arms deal, which is something Paul Foot wrote for us about loads

in the eighties and just said, no, we just need to do business with them.

So, um, we are, we are not gonna do this.

I mean there was at least no

Andy: pretense

about

that.

Helen: That

Adam: But that was before they'd started dismembering journalists with Boulogne

sores.

is it is a red line

for me.

Helen: Yes.

It's a red, no, it's a red line for me as well.

I, I can see the point that if you're a British Prime Minister, you're going

to have to deal with Saudi Arabia.

They exist, they are a geopolitical fact.

They are going to be a key partner in any kind of peace in the Middle

East between Israel and Gaza.

They have essentially become the only country that has buy-in from both Russia

and America to be able to host Ukraine.

Peace Talks Right.

In the way that Britain would like to, but Russia knows that

we are really not on their side.

Yeah.

Um, so, you know, all of that stuff is just a kind of geopolitical fact.

The stuff I find more difficult is the kind of journalists and

influencers going over there.

And then, 'cause the point about that is, is that you then, after that slightly

lose ability to criticize them, not least because it is indeed illegal in Saudi

Andy: Arabia

to do so.

Yes, and this is where I think I, I think this is like a big part of the

MBS strategy is to make it seem like Saudi Arabia is not a petro state.

They get about 30% of their income from

Helen: oil.

They're

definitely

a

petris date.

How much do they get from their

Andy: Sandy,

Helen: Having them put in the pavement?

Andy: it's all golf, no gully there.

And they actually, they are investing big in Chinese green tech.

Hmm.

That is a thing they're doing.

And that, that's, um, you know, I'm sure that's something

also they want to shout about.

They're very keen to be known.

That's, that, that's known about in the west.

They, the, the idea is that they want to be a middle power.

So between the USA and China and somewhere where like the UE you

know, a lot of deals take place.

so there is this chat about greening the economy.

We'll see how real that is.

but as you say, the media stuff is really interesting.

So they bought a big stake in the independent and the standard.

and Lev is great, great pals with, um, MBS.

Mm-hmm.

They visit,

Adam: They spend a

Andy: time Yes.

He and Leow had him to dinner at Hampton Court when, uh, when he

Helen: came

Adam: over

in 18 at stud,

House.

Stud House, Hampton Court.

Yeah.

He doesn't actually end the

whole of

Hampton

Court, it's just

Helen: stud

house.

Do you think he makes him do all the kind of longevity stuff?

Do you think they're there doing the sort of penile plasmas

graphs and the hyperbaric

Andy: chambers

and

all that sort

together?

Well, Lebanon Leviev did join the Board of

Evolution,

which

is

a yes.

A, a rather Crank longevity

organization.

Which, which MBS headed.

Yeah.

Adam: Yes.

Not

Andy: Evolution Immortality Rom.

Helen: Poor Rob.

Andy: Um, and this is all via the PIF, the Public Investment Fund, which is, about

half a trillion dollars of oil money.

It's big.

They started it in the seventies and um, turns out we've, we've

needed a lot of oil since then.

So that's been spent on things like Newcastle United, 2034 World

Cup, the Liv Golf Tournament.

I know you two are both keen, keen Golf

Helen: fans

and

they've,

but you know what, I know so little about that, that I

thought this is how posh I am.

I thought that was the

Andy: 54

golf

tournament.

Oh

Helen: Oh,

Andy: god.

but there are things like Vice where the Saudis bought a chunk of vice

and as a result it really pulled back its criticism of the regime.

There's a lot of reporting that they would've done.

One editor at least resigned in protest over that.

So that's the interesting thing.

They bought shares in Disney and Facebook.

About 1% of each of those two is owned by Saudi Arabia.

So,

Adam: and it's not just about, um, media ownership either because

there's an awful lot of Spun con.

I mean, we've done end endless pieces in street about various papers,

particularly the Financial Times is quite keen on whilst being editorially quite

critical of the Saudi regime at times.

Awful lot of stuff from sort of visit Saudi and is it Nessun?

That Nessun,

Nessun,

that's the, the

Andy: noise of the, it's the

noise of the future Nessun,

Helen: Which as far as I can see, looks like a sort of military

base and you have to eat all your meals in a kind of group canteen.

I just, it's something that you look like you would sentence

influencers to do if I was in power rather than something you actively

Adam: it's not the Marriott, the Boris Carry and the kids ran to, is it?

No, no,

Helen: no.

Andy: so as these meetings are happening, it's just, it's very interesting to

think this is a space that Britain, as you say, hea might have occupied in

the

past

Helen: oh, you, I thought you meant like physically like our

colonial power, but you Yes.

You mean the, the sort of imaginary space of the bridge between America and other

Andy: powers.

Helen: Yeah,

yeah,

exactly.

Adam: But it's not just that you're not allowed to make any

criticism of brs either, is it?

It's that if you go over there for one of these jollies and a pain,

however much you do seem to also have to make the obligatory gushing quote.

Have you

Helen: got those there?

it's

Adam: the,

well,

Andy: well, it's very much like appearing on Meghan Markle show.

Mm. You just, you have to turn up, you have to try the stuff, the canapes and

you say, my goodness, did you make this?

That

Helen: is

Andy: amazing.

Helen: So you're watching

a

lot of you have watching too much

with love, Meghan

Adam: clue into Andy's life here.

Andy: Yeah.

You have to say this lady bird Crostini is fantastic to MBS.

Yeah, you do.

And Boris has been doing that, and I think some leaders clearly are,

are, are even more enthusiastic

Adam: Boris has been doing that.

Piers Morgan was over there, wasn't

Andy: he, for a jolly recently

was

Adam: and, uh, Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Who having been extremely outspoken about Jamal Khashoggi when he was in his days

back on Good Morning Britain, when that happened, Uh, this is what he said at the,

um, when he was interviewing then business secretary quasi Quaye on March, 2021,

uh, about, uh, crown Prince Mohammed.

Bill s Salman, are you going to apply sanctions and stand up in a moral

and ethical way against this Crown Prince, who, according to the United

States government, is a man who murders journalists where is our moral compass?

He literally sent a team of executioners to lead this journalist into a room

where they sought him to pieces.

Do you not feel uncomfortable about doing business with him?

This is Piers Morgan in, uh, January this year when he appeared as a guest

at the Saudi Real Estate Future Forum

in

Helen: Riyadh.

Adam: I have never seen a personality like that of his Royal

Highness Crown Prince Mohammad

bin Salman.

I have witnessed gender equality in the kingdom, and I'm very proud

of the developments the Kingdom is experiencing, supporting and

empowering all its citizens.

Saudi Arabia has achieved remarkable success in sports with national

team players demonstrating a high level of skill and

competence.

This transformation happening in the Kingdom is truly inspiring,

both intellectually and emotionally driven by a visionary approach

that sets a global benchmark.

I mean, Meghan Markle at this point would be kind of like being slightly

Andy: yeah.

That's alright.

Yeah.

Adam: she?

How much

Andy: stop there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Helen: how much money would they have to give you to, to put that out?

much as I want to live in a really big house, I just think I just, I'd be like,

Andy: you

Helen: what I mean?

Even if it, if I, that could be about my own mother and I wouldn't wanna say

something that nice about, I'm critically

Adam: I think I'd have the GETT Act clause.

'cause they said, do you wanna come over for X amount of, uh, of money?

To, to I just say, can

I bring

my

husband?

Is that all right?

Helen: He and, uh, Tucker Carson

Andy: interviewed each other.

Helen: Which is, yeah, it's a sort of bizarre stage set of

the two of them in front of a

Andy: kind of

windswept

dune.

had they both been briefed that they were going to be the one being asked the

Helen: questions I fear, although I only watched about 10 minutes before my

eyeballs started

liquefying.

But um, they sort of did a kind of tag team thing where

one of them did one of in.

Yeah.

And they both put it out in their own

Andy: platforms

as

it

were.

Oh.

I don't feel entirely

well

hearing

about that.

But

Adam: imagine having to go to the

desert

to see, I mean, there's not enough money in the

Andy: world.

Helen: Wow.

Tucker Carl often wears sockless loafers as well, which I imagine in the

Andy: desert would very

unpleasant.

Mm.

You never saw Lawrence Arabia in sous LOAs, did

Adam: you?

That's true.

Andy: Okay.

That's it for this episode of page 94.

Thank you so much for listening.

And, uh, we'll be back again on a fortnight with another one.

But until then, there's a permanent

Helen: podcast

available

in

Andy: in written

form.

It's on Newstands,

it's

Adam: permanent.

Podcast is such a nightmare

concept.

I mean, Joe Rogans enough, surely.

Andy: It's uh, it's on Newstands, it's at private.

Hi i.co uk and it's called Priva Eye Magazine, in case

you didn't know that already.

It's terrific.

Go and get it.

Thanks for listening.

Thanks to Matt Hill, Aretha Cordio for producing.

We'll

Adam: see you next time.

Andy: Bye

for now,