S2E8 final ===

Paul Adelstein: [00:00:00] Oh, hi. I didn't see you there.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, hey friend. You just happened to be sitting there with my, with a guitar in your hand.

Paul Adelstein: That's

Sarah Wayne Callies: a good looking guitar.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, this is a, uh, they make these, uh, guitars now.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Do they? Yeah. And, and what does one do with a guitar these days at your house? Smash

Paul Adelstein: it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wow. Okay. Uh, welcome

Paul Adelstein: to Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul. I'm Paul.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I'm Sarah. You guys, welcome to episode 208. That is, uh, Deadfall. We are now

Paul Adelstein: I can imitate your [00:01:00] throat clear almost precisely now. I'm not being critical.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You said to me the other day, you were like, you have a tick, and I was like, I have a what?

It's a little bit of a I just have, like, I, now that, now that you've pointed it out, I was like, God, I do this all day. I wonder if this is something I should get looked at and like, go to an ear, nose, and throat specialist.

Paul Adelstein: You've done it since I've known you. Really? I think so. Um, also, um That sounds super annoying.

It's not annoying at all. I didn't notice it until I was editing the podcast last year all audio.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh yeah, yeah. I could see it coming. How many times am I going to have to cut out? No, I could see

Paul Adelstein: it coming in the sound wave. On the waveform? Yeah, I knew exactly what it looked like in the waveform. There's probably some AI could have just been like, search this.

Get

Sarah Wayne Callies: rid of all of this. But, you know, it's nice. It's not nice. It's awful. Thank you for your patience. Also, I'm

Paul Adelstein: not being, I really am not being critical. But also, um, and you can tell me what mine are. Um, Not for Nothing is a great one that you do. That's just a retort. Do you know what?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I got that. This is a, this [00:02:00] is a quick shout out to the first person I ever knew who said that a lot.

His name is Dave Morelli. He was a friend of mine in grad school. He, uh, you would have loved him actually. He played the standup bass in a rockabilly band. Oh, hell yeah. Um, but he used to say that and he was from Connecticut. He'd be like, nothing, nothing. Nothing, nothing. Yeah. What does that even mean? No, I say it all the time.

Anyway. Um. Welcome. So. Episode 208. Yes. Deadfall. We talked about this episode actually a little bit in 206 when we were talking to Eric Norris because it has a like, for real stunt in it.

Paul Adelstein: Two for real stunts in it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um. What's the other one? I'm thinking of the

Paul Adelstein: The tree. Just shooting under the tree is a stunt.

Oh yeah, that whole

Sarah Wayne Callies: sequence. And then the motorcycle! The

Paul Adelstein: motorcycle thing is a real, real stunt.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's bananas. That stunt. Because it looked like they did it into the actual rhythm. Yeah, and

Paul Adelstein: then they did the thing where when he splashes in, Michael appears. They did the old switcheroo too, which is cool.

Yeah!

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. [00:03:00] It's so good. Um, so, so, so good. Like a cowboy switch with a body.

Paul Adelstein: Right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: A cowboy

Paul Adelstein: switch, right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm not entirely sure I've seen this episode before, uh, especially the very last scene. I was like, Oh, between, um, Keller and Mahone, but let's, um, so there's no guests today because we have things to catch up on.

There's a lot to talk about. Um, so yeah, let's do the index. Okay. Hit it. Are you ready? I'm ready. Um, okay, Deadfall first aired on October 23rd, 2006. It was written by Zach Estrin, one of the core writers of the show, who It just comes up with so many wonderful one liners and horrible names for teabag. What was what?

Diaper Sniper? Diaper Sniper. Diaper Sniper. And that

Paul Adelstein: Hector was standing at the altar with his spam in his hand.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Spam in his hand. Which, as someone from Hawaii who has an affinity for spam, I, I, I didn't need that. Um, Vince Mizziano directed this episode. We're going to talk about Vince, uh, in a minute because I have a connection [00:04:00] with him.

This was actually Vince's first episode of the show, but he would go on to do two more. Another one in season two and one in season three. Um, this episode, episode 208, aired at 8 p. m. against Wife Swap on ABC, Deal or No Deal on NBC, and How I Met Your Mother on CBS.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, new blood. CBS

Sarah Wayne Callies: had been airing the class in this slot.

And, okay, so, I wondered, okay, we've been, We're actually wondering all season what on earth the class was. So I looked it up last night when I was doing this little script here. Um, it turns out I have a really good friend in it. Jon Bernthal was in the class.

Music: Wow.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Along with a cast that included Jesse Tyler Ferguson, Jason Ritter, and Lizzie Kaplan.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, it was the Noah Baumbach show, right? Am I making that up?

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, I think it was David Crane.

Paul Adelstein: Oh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Maybe. Okay. I'm not entirely sure. Okay. Um, but it, uh, it won a People's Choice Award for Best New Comedy. [00:05:00] Okay. And that it was cancelled.

Paul Adelstein: Well, there you go.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So, there's Hollywood. Um, anyway, against all that competition, our show, Prison Break, Drew.

8. 53 million live viewers.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, to recap the episode, since we left everyone with the money in a Thule basement, Thu el ee,

Sarah Wayne Callies: Thu el ee. Still don't know how to say it.

Paul Adelstein: In Utah basement with Sucre holding a gunpoint. Sucre takes the bag of money all for himself, but plot twist, it's Schofield's plan all along, so they don't have to share it.

Um, they meet up later. Um, but they have been double switched. Bagwell really has the bag. Well, and he is driving away in a car. That's what you did there. Thank you. Uh, then Sucre gets stuck in a river, forcing Schofield into a harrowing save. Sucre finds out that plot twist, Mary Cruz cancelled their wedding.

Yay. He and Michael separate so he can go find her. Meanwhile, Lincoln finds LJ. And Bellic and Geary realize that Bagwell A. has the money [00:06:00] and B. they figure out where he's headed to find Susan Hollander, his former love, who turned him to the police, landed him at Fox River. Elsewhere, Kellerman recovers the encrypted messages Dr.

Sarah receives from Schofield. Dr. Sarah narrowly escapes being killed by a company operative at a payphone. She calls Bruce Bennett, an associate of her father's, for help, only to realize it was Bruce that sent them to kill her in the first part and he's clearly working for the company Also working for the company big reveal at the end Alexander Mahone, plot twists everywhere.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So many plot twists. In world events, um, we're going back a little bit because we missed it and I don't know, I thought it was worth including for some reason last night. Okay. On October 9th, um, North Korea reported that the country had quote successfully conducted a nuclear test. Great. Um, which stressed out everyone in the world.

A week later on October 17th, the U. S. became, this interested me, only the third country to officially reach a population of 300, 000. million, India and [00:07:00] China, obviously having been, uh, the first two, um, 300 million. I know. Uh, and October 25th, 2006, the Supreme court of New Jersey unanimously ruled in Lewis v.

Harris, that same sex, same sex couples are entitled to equal protection as heterosexual couples under the Newsy New Jersey state constitution. I made a mess of saying that, but, um, Hey, Bada bing. Spray tans for everyone. It's

Paul Adelstein: great. Uh, in pop culture on October, October 9th, Google purchased the two year old company YouTube for a whopping 1.

6 billion with a B. Two days later, 30 Rock premiered on NBC, creating and starring, created by and starring the brilliant Tina Fey. And October 27th, St. Louis Cardinals beat the Detroit Tigers 4 2, game five to win the World Series. All right, let's talk about this episode. Let's take a quick break real quick.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We'll see you right back.[00:08:00]

Okay. Welcome back. Welcome back. Um. I have notes.

Paul Adelstein: Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You want to start with your notes?

Paul Adelstein: Um, Dunderpate?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Dunderpate. I looked it up.

Paul Adelstein: Bagwell calls Sucre a Dunderpate.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, it's another name for Dunderhead. Right, sure. Noun informal, a foolish person. Also called, yeah, Dunderpate. Okay. Since we're

Paul Adelstein: starting kind of talking about stunts, you did, you had a little action, the action in this, uh, episode, you threw a glass, you threw a vase, um, but a couple of vases, a couple of vases.

More interestingly, well, you ran down a fire escape. That was you. I take it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It was me, um, and small thing, but Sarah's apartment was on, um, Sarah's apartment was on the stages. So we shot that separately, [00:09:00] which I think is probably why you never see her actually going out the window, right? Because we wouldn't have had access.

Right. To the building on location, et cetera, et cetera. You know, I'll be honest, I think it was me running down the steps. I don't remember it.

Paul Adelstein: It looked like you. It looked like you. Um, and then, uh, probably a stunt, but how did you cut, how do you cut your arm with a piece of glass on TV? How does that work?

Sarah Wayne Callies: You know, there's lots of different ways to do it. I mean, now some people just CGI it. Um, but I believe it was one of those things where if, if this is the shard of glass on the, On the backside here, they tape a, uh, a tube with blood in it.

Paul Adelstein: And you kind of squeeze it out?

Sarah Wayne Callies: And you go like that. Yeah, or while I'm doing it, there's a special effects guy just off camera squeezing it to come out at the same time.

Um, I'm pretty sure, uh, Cause I've also seen them

Paul Adelstein: where they basically put [00:10:00] a, um, blood pack on you and then they put fake skin over it. And then you actually cut through that. But I would imagine that's more dangerous because you're actually using something sharp.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and I, I do remember there being conversation on the day.

They're like, we want her to cut herself.

Music: Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But it's gotta not look like a suicide. So you can't, there was a lot of conversations about like, what cuts would look like a suicide and what cuts would look like a struggle.

Paul Adelstein: And then I have another question for you. You do, we were talking about this during the rewatch a little bit.

Uh, what I like to call thinking acting. Which is like, you're in an alley looking at pieces of paper for a good three scenes there. There's no dialogue, except one for the audience's sake. There's another, there's another grain.

Sarah Wayne Callies: The talking to yourself, which is my least favorite kind of line to deliver.

Paul Adelstein: [00:11:00] But, some people, you see, I don't know, I don't know what this is. I don't know, because you can't really describe it, or you can't really say that there's anything technical to do. But there are some actors, even in a cutaway shot, where they're supposed to be like looking out a window and thinking about something.

Where you're like, they're not, there's nothing going on there. And then some people, some people were like, Oh, that's, they're totally figuring, they're thinking through this thing. And you know, you can't like do it to, Oh, if I move my eyes back and forth, it'll look like I'm thinking. Or if I'm, I think, think some people's instinct is, you know, you're working all these days, you have all these scenes and it's like, Oh, I'm just.

I have to go stand on a thing and they're going to shoot me and I have to be thinking and it just fits into the, and I think a lot of actors are like, I don't have to do anything. No acting required. You have to do all the same work.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You have to do all the

Paul Adelstein: same work. So can you explain, can you just, can you explain that please?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Still need your actions. You still need your objectives. [00:12:00] Will you still, I mean, you're so basically my scene partner in the. in this scene is the pieces of paper. Uh

Music: huh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, or you could say actually that they're, that they're the ghost of Michael Schofield, whatever, but you've still gotta be trying to affect.

Uh huh. You gotta be doing something, right? Action, playing an action. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I don't know what, but puzzling. Yeah. I'm, I'm trying to walk my way through this labyrinth. Yeah. Um, I, I had a lot of those scenes. I remember, there's also a bunch of stuff slightly later on where I'm in. a hotel room and there's like phone book acting.

Again, it's a lot of like watching the television, seeing Michael say something, realizing it's a code, figuring out the code. I find it, it's easier to just have the thoughts to like literally just have the thoughts and let somebody film them. I will say on the directing side, I have been in the position of shooting someone who's maybe [00:13:00] newer and they're not thinking about it.

Don't come super easily. And You can achieve a similar effect by being like, I want you to start looking up there at that piece of pink tape. Okay, so this is what I you to look down at the green tape. And then over to the side at the yellow tape. So there is a tech,

Paul Adelstein: there is a technical solve.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You, you can if you have to.

Because if, if you think of nothing and just go like that, with anything on your face, it does look like you're processing information.

Paul Adelstein: Um.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Because often when we're thinking about things, Okay, so you can't fake. you look for it.

Paul Adelstein: Right. I think you can. Yeah, if you do it well, you gotta do it well. Um, it reminds me of so many acting stories that I think about.

One is, um, the one I think about all the time is in The Insider, the Michael Mann movie.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a great film.

Paul Adelstein: About the whistleblower, uh, the tobacco whistleblower, Al Pacino plays a, um, news producer and he has a lot of scenes where he's like. Like reading a fax or like [00:14:00] waiting for a phone call and like It's so i'm just always in that movie for some reason.

I'm always like he's thinking about something Yeah, and some people say it doesn't matter what you're thinking about. You just have to be thinking about something. Um Yep. And then I saw a really inter, uh, interesting interview with Christian Bale. I can't remember what movie he was talking about, but he said that he had a whole, oh, I think it might've been Big Short.

Okay. There's so many scenes of him, like, with his headphones on, like, just like looking at a computer. Yeah, yeah. He said he wrote these long internal monologues that he would memorize. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For himself. Yeah. And then he would just run them in his head. And it would kind of, so he said it made him really self, it made him really self conscious to do it without doing that.

So he would kind of forget that he was on camera because he'd be like trying to remember.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think, I think that's really brilliant. I mean the whole concept of an inner [00:15:00] monologue is kind of an actor y thing. And in some ways I think it's a useful tool to just take the, take the nerves or take the stink off of whatever you're doing.

Like as soon as you think there's a camera there. Yeah. It's really hard to focus and do good work.

Paul Adelstein: You're screwed. And you know, the death, it's hard to get rid of. Especially on a, on a Set with a camera as you said even with another actor to not be aware of what's going into the lens Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, and then when you're alone, you're like, oh the lens is the only thing you're kind of interacting with So to your point you had to make an action.

I think they were pretty

Sarah Wayne Callies: good about being long lensy on a lot of that They were you

Paul Adelstein: Uh, but even like, how's this coming off your, you can be very, you can be very conscious of, is this indicating, which an actor never wants to do, is this indicating the right thing? I'm touching my face. I'm, you know, like, you're very self conscious.

Anyway, I wanted to say, I [00:16:00] thought you, you do it really, really well and it's also, she seems smart, which she is, but like, that's also another thing where it's like, it comes off as smart. I don't know why. Well, and there's something

Sarah Wayne Callies: interesting that. What happens, I think, between, not between, but about Kellerman, Sarah, and Michael, is

Paul Adelstein: you

Sarah Wayne Callies: realize, like, they're all, well, not Mahone in this episode, but in this one, Sarah and Kellerman are figuring this out around the same time.

That's cool,

Paul Adelstein: I really like that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And there's a sense that, like, they, these are Like, Michael may be the mastermind, but these two can keep up. Yeah. And they can keep up with each other and they can keep up with him. And I think that, that sets up an important dynamic for the rest of the season. Yeah, I mean,

Paul Adelstein: I think, I think it was Tarantino who said the thing about like, if the villain isn't [00:17:00] as, isn't smarter or, and as, As smart or more, or as powerful or more than the hero, then there's no drama.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You don't care. Yeah, you don't care. Um, something else about that scene. In the alley? In the alley. Or, no, not in the alley. In the, um, like the tunnel. Whatever, the like, under the bridge, deciphering everything. Yeah. There's a wide shot. And you see my shoes.

Paul Adelstein: Uh oh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And that is significant just because I had had some conversation.

I had fought really hard for super comfortable shoes.

Paul Adelstein: Smart woman.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That season. cause I was like, we're going to be running around like crazy. I had really comfortable shoes season one. And there was a little bit of a thing, and I can't remember what it was, but it was something like, I saw a pair of shoes and I was like, these are comfortable, let's get them for the show.

And someone didn't love them. And I remember saying, and saying in front of our DP, [00:18:00] I might've been a producer. Maybe it was a DP. I can't remember. But I was like, You will never see my show, my shoes in season two. Like, you've got to be kidding me. This show lives from the belly button up. No, no one sees shoes.

There's like one shot of Lane's shoes as he's walking up to Debra Jean's place. But like, this is not a show where you see people's shoes. We don't, we're never that wide. And as we were shooting this scene, the DP, I think it was Fernando Rojas, it might've been Bobby Labonte, I can't remember.

It was, it was Fernando.

Came up to me and was like, I shot your shoes. And I was like, you son of a b!Tch And he was just like, I'm just, he's like, I just had to prove you were wrong. And I was like, it'll never make the cut. It'll never make the cut. And he's like, you're sitting. And I was like, it's gonna make the cut. And he came, when he saw, like he was, cause they color time and they edit and stuff.

I remember he came a couple of weeks later. He's like, your shoes are in the cut. And I was like, duh! So it became this big thing and it just, it [00:19:00] just sort of made me laugh.

Paul Adelstein: That's

really funny.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I was sort of dumb. Ahem. I, uh, That's

Paul Adelstein: really, really, That's so,

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's weird inside baseball. I don't know if we've ever seen Kellerman's shoes.

Actually, I was just noticing

Paul Adelstein: that in this, because he's standing in her apartment going, and kicking her mail around that you do.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Wait, there was something you wanted to talk about in that scene. You said you remember that scene really well. I

Paul Adelstein: just remember shooting it really well, and it was, I was doing some of my first thinking acting.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Thinking acting? Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Um. I had to do some in season one. Okay. Uh, but more, yeah, more here and it was fun.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, it was kind of nice. Um, which brings us to the director, Vince Mizziano. Who I remember really liking. Um, he was one of the directors who made an impression on me. I was really happy to see him back later in the season.

Uh, I wasn't in season three, neither were you, so we didn't get [00:20:00] to work with him when he did that. But years, and I mean years later, this would have been twenty 19 or 20, I think 2019. Uh, I was doing Council of Dads in Savannah, and a guy shows up to direct one of our episodes named Chris Ano. Oh, who's Vince's brother?

Yes. They are directing brothers. Yes. Like Zis and, uh, like the what

Paul Adelstein: Randy and Craig Zisk.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, and it was just really kind of lovely to have that connection. Yeah. And, uh, Chris Mizziano, for those of you who are West Wing fans, had done an S ton of the West Wing. Won an Emmy for the West Wing.

And so had Vincent.

Paul Adelstein: Did he? I wasn't

Sarah Wayne Callies: sure. He did some. I don't think he did as many

Paul Adelstein: as Vincent, as Chris.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's Chris did? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, the Miseano brothers are absolutely brilliant. Treat yourself if you can ever work with either one of them.

Paul Adelstein: And I remember just bugging him about West Wing because I was such a [00:21:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Absolutely.

Absolutely. Were you ever almost on that show? Nope. It feels like you would have auditioned for that.

Paul Adelstein: Okay, so now you sound like my, like my aunts who used to be like, why, why aren't you on West Wing? I was like, oh, I didn't think of that. I should be.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No. That's No, just like you're a white guy. You can wear a

Paul Adelstein: tie like I don't understand.

Like,

Sarah Wayne Callies: no, it's not that it's because you're smart and you're fast talking and I believe that you would work on. I believe that you could work on the hill. I mean, your brother basically does, right? Like he's in politics.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: you're so, but you're so in that world of like, yeah, talking intellectual suit wearing.

I would absolutely have bought. I

Paul Adelstein: know you mean globalist.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. I mean, globalist. Look, I wouldn't have

Paul Adelstein: to

Sarah Wayne Callies: do. Yeah.

Music: Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: let me put it this way. I did never, I never would have said to Dom, why weren't you in the West Wing? Do you know what I mean? Like that's, that's not Dom's genre. It's not.

Paul Adelstein: Fair enough. [00:22:00] Um, let's talk about, um, you know what I want to talk about is Kim Coates who plays.

The internal, what, I don't know what you call that, um, what do you call it, uh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, it's like internal affairs kind of guy. Kind of

Paul Adelstein: investigating Mahone's, which is also a great piece of writing.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mahone.

Paul Adelstein: Mahone, on a number You hear

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mahone's thing is adorable.

Paul Adelstein: On a, on a number of levels. One, like you said, uh, when we were watching the rewatch, it's the first episode where Mahone, his, uh, he, Is losing some authority or if people come in that are above him first, it starts with the eternal internal affairs guy.

And what they're really teeing up is the scene at the end with Kellerman because what the internal affairs guy is saying is why did two guys that you're hunting end up dead? Uh, this is, this is Two guys you're supposed to bring in alive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If at all possible. And, um, uh, it shows obviously that Mahone is hiding something, but also there's [00:23:00] a twist in it where he ends up having status over that guy.

Yeah. Um. But

Sarah Wayne Callies: it also doesn't seem like he knows that's coming. Like, at least the way he played the scene, it was interesting to me because it felt like for a minute Mahone was like, uh oh. I'm in trouble. I think that's I'm in legit trouble. And then the phone call comes. I think that's a

Paul Adelstein: little bit of a, uh, messing with Kellerman, you could have gotten me out of there earlier, but.

Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah,

Paul Adelstein: but it still plays either way. I guess you're, you're, you're right. So I, I, I, yeah, you may, you, you, you're right about, you may be right about that. Um, but I thought that it was, first of all, Kim Coates is great. He obviously went on to, Kim Coates is

Sarah Wayne Callies: also Bill Fickner's best friend. He

Paul Adelstein: also went on to big success with Sons of Anarchy, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. It was fantastic in this way.

Paul Adelstein: Um, but he's

Sarah Wayne Callies: also one of those actors who's just been good in everything he's done for 40 years. And it's such a great, it's,

Paul Adelstein: I'm, maybe they cast him because he's Bill's friend or Bill suggested him, whatever, but like, there [00:24:00] is a, Roles like that are hard. You have to come in and have status over somebody who has status over you in real life.

Like it's, you know, it's, it's Bill Fletcher. He's big deal actor. It's a big deal show. You have one scene where you have to be dominant. Now, a lot of that has to do with Bill giving that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Giving the status, absolutely.

Paul Adelstein: But, but Kim Coates takes it and he has a great amount of gravitas. And, uh, He's

Sarah Wayne Callies: an actor who wears implicit threat very well.

And

Paul Adelstein: authority. Yeah. He wasn't, there was no mustache twirling. Um, I just thought it was excellent. No, no. He looks a little like Rufus Sewell, huh?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, I've never thought about that before.

Paul Adelstein: Kind of an American, less, less refined, uh, Rufus Sewell. Uh, okay. Kim

Sarah Wayne Callies: Coats, interestingly, Canadian. Yeah, well that's what you said.[00:25:00]

And I loved, I loved that scene between you and Bill at the end. Because again, it's, it feels in some ways like the return of Kellerman. Because there's been so much loss of status. Yes, with Reggie's character, to Kim. Um, that there's a little bit of a like, Oh, he's going to come back with this whole decoding the birds thing.

Yeah,

Paul Adelstein: and it does feel like Kellerman is pushed, especially once they screwed up the Sarah murder, that Kellerman is back to try to protect the president. When he says the thing about there's too many bodies under the rug.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, you can't even stand on it. I would have loved a response from Reggie's character about like, what are the odds that another five foot eight brunette was going to walk over and make a phone call?

I mean, she was saved in some ways by like, Isn't it also a little sloppy

Paul Adelstein: to just gun her down?

Like with machine gun? Like it was like, Oh, [00:26:00] these, these narco barons wanted her dead. I mean, it just, it's, I don't know.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Maybe. I mean, well, actually it might've been right. If it's If it's a drug thing, if it's a Sarah's drug dealer, gunned her down. Fair enough. I'll

Paul Adelstein: take it. I'll take it. Um, my guess is that that would have been a stunt woman, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yes. Yeah, yeah. I remember that on the day. Because she, I mean, all she had to do was walk, be squibbed, squibbed. You know, it's no

Paul Adelstein: joke. Those were big squibs, too. They looked

Sarah Wayne Callies: Those were big squibs. And relatively close to her face.

Paul Adelstein: And, I gotta say, good death. Good death. She did a good job. Good death.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm still So far this season most impressed by Lane.

Lane's death

Paul Adelstein: is wonderful

Sarah Wayne Callies: car riddled with bullets against a car eyes open and then like yeah, they're like

Paul Adelstein: slump eyes open thing is great. Uh, John Hurd's eyes open were open too. I noticed. Oh yeah, which is so creepy. It's so upsetting. So, so

Sarah Wayne Callies: creepy.

Paul Adelstein: Um, um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: by the way, uh, please jump in with any additional.

Uh, questions you've got, but [00:27:00] I put together a good list of some fan questions for us because we did not answer any last week. Um, so we can, I have one

Paul Adelstein: story, then let's take a break and do fan questions. Uh, the scene with Fickner with Mahone and Kellerman at the end, I remember shooting it so well. It was very hot,

Music: Dallas

Paul Adelstein: street, they were just picking it up, um, and I was nervous to work with Bill.

I'd never worked with him before. And he, I don't think he would mind me telling this, he had was, he was passing a kidney stone, which is like, I've never had it. Oh my God. I've heard. It's like the most painful thing. Like the most like male childbirth, like the closest to males ever going to get to childbirth.

And oh my god, I was in awe of him because you don't he's not even I mean I'm sweating in the scene He's not even sweating in the scene and he just you know, first of all, he [00:28:00] didn't make it anybody else's problem Yeah, no billy wouldn't and his acting was Completely on point and I just remember being like Just very impressed.

Yeah, that's a gangster move right there.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I wonder, if we ever get him on the pot, I would love to ask him, if, you know that acting thing where you have the flu and 102 degree fever, and then it goes away for a second? You're on stage and for all of your scenes you're fine. I wonder if it went away, or if he was playing.

I remember

Paul Adelstein: him being quite uncomfortable.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, he played it really well, actually. Because you get a sense that he's in a little bit of emotional pain. Well, yeah, sure. At this whole thing, like, damn. So is the implication

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, I think the implication is Kellerman knows about shales, right? Or that the company knows about you.

They're leveraging him.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think so. It's the p tape, right?

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, that totally worked.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Nailed [00:29:00] it! Um, by the way, next time we talk about Billy, ask me about micro cuts. Um, we will handle that later. For now, let's take a little break. And then we have fan

Music: questions.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So welcome back. We have been, um, along with our, uh, Intrepid producer, Ben Haber, assembling fan questions from our Instagram. What does Intrepid mean? Also, some of you have been putting, uh, questions on Discord. For those of you who are in the Discord community, thank you so much. Love that. And some of you emailed them, and we even have one that came in on our callback line, on our call in line, which is very exciting.

Um, I want to start with this one because it really made me think, and Paul, I'm going to kick it to you. At Alicia L I S N Y J, um, came in on Instagram. What big plot changes do you think would have been made to the show if it was filmed in 2025 instead of [00:30:00] 2005? That is a heck of a question. That's

Paul Adelstein: a big question.

It is a heck of a question. Do you want to think about it while

Sarah Wayne Callies: we answer the rest?

Paul Adelstein: Um, yes, I do. Okay. Give me a minute.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, let's let that percolate because it I was thinking about it last night as I was putting this together. That's a

Paul Adelstein: really interesting, good question.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh huh. And I feel like we're going to continue to have answers that pop up over successive episodes.

Yeah, I think we've addressed

Paul Adelstein: some of those things, but like, we should talk more about it. I mean, well, a few things come to mind, but let's keep, let's keep asking. We'll circle back to that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: All right. Um, this one came, um, I just thought this was a cool idea I wanted to share. This one came in from Discord, um, Pierluigi Di Maggio asks, What do you think about a Prison Break spinoff about Alex Mahone and the Oscar Shales murder?

I think that's a great idea. I am so here for that. I think

Paul Adelstein: it's A flash, like a, like a Young Mahone, Young [00:31:00] Shales.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's a prequel.

Paul Adelstein: Yep.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Or, it's um, current Alex Mahone. Oh. And like, the son of Oscar Shales. Oh. Who has been tracking him for Partly because I just want to see Billy play Mahone

Paul Adelstein: Oh, that's so great.

You could do it like old man where there's people playing them younger, people playing them older and you can get the, you can get both and we can have both. It could be so fun. Oh, that's a great idea.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Somebody at, at Hulu or Fox or 20th or whoever owns the show now.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, okay. I got one for you. What's up?

Chach C I A C H O one, two. Is it easier for you to have co stars who you are friends with, or is it better when you don't know the person having such intense scenes with Paul in this season, even more with Wentworth, the vulnerability in many scenes, the emotions, etc. Does it make it easier knowing them well?

What difference does it make [00:32:00] if next to you is a complete stranger?

Sarah Wayne Callies: You know, it's funny, we've kind of talked about edges of this. I think it can work either way. It really depends on the scene. So showing up on set to meet someone, if you've, let's say you've got a small role in an independent film, and they can't afford to fly you out a week early and put you up in a hotel.

And so you show up, and you meet someone in hair and makeup, and you're supposed to have been married for 15 years. That is not my favorite thing to do with a stranger. Right. Um, it really helps if you've got some kind of Yeah. relationship with, that's a moment where if I'm, um, if I'm Billy Fickner, I go, hey, can you get me Kim Coats because we've been friends for 20 it would be great to do.

Hmm. Um, I will say there are times when being [00:33:00] with somebody you don't know can be easier to be vulnerable because

There are times when it can work out just fine because you're opening up to somebody without any history or baggage. Um, obviously, with Wentworth, I was very grateful to be doing those scenes with somebody that I had built a trust with. You

Paul Adelstein: didn't, for instance, you didn't know him before Prison Break.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, 1, our characters walk the same path that our That we did as people.

Not in terms of falling in love, but in terms of starting as strangers. And developing a very intimate friendship. And that, um, that was, that,

Paul Adelstein: that mattered. How about you? Um, I think it's a triangulation. I think you kind of hit it on the head. I think it depends on what this, what's [00:34:00] required of the acting.

Like if it's, it's not necessarily just vulnerable or emotional, but like what is, what, like you said, is it somebody you're supposed to have known for 20 years? Yeah. Yeah. Uh. Uh. Or, um, and, and then what is your relationship with the actual actor? I think it can, I think it can play either way. I, um, it, it really depends on what the assignment is.

Right. Um, I think it works for instance, if you really know somebody well, and you're supposed to have never known them, that's easier to play than what you described, which is, I've actually never met this person, but we're supposed to have grown up together. That can be hard. Although there are those people you meet.

where you immediately have that thing.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, there

Paul Adelstein: are.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And it happens more on movie sets, or television and film sets, in my experience than anywhere else. Because we are so open to each other often, I find that there are more people that I've met and within a [00:35:00] week, I'm like, how were you never a part of my life before?

Right, and also

Paul Adelstein: that, I think that also that, you know, the concentration of people that do what we do becomes much, much greater than it does just out in the world. So, suddenly there's commonality amongst people where normally if you go to a Coffee shop. Well, I live in LA, so that may not be the best example, but in, you know, in a regular place, you go there and like, you're not going to bump into somebody that has had anything similar to your life experience a lot of the times, or interest or educational interests.

Um, and then suddenly on a movie set, you're like, even though you didn't walk necessarily the same path. You're like, I see you. Oh, you, how'd you, who, what was your family like? How? Yeah. They, they wanted you. Oh, I see. Like there's just an immediate shorthand. Um, yeah. So I think you could play either way. I think, um,

the last thing I'll say about it is I think there's a, you know, like I was saying about. Fickner and Kim [00:36:00] Coats and status and coming into a thing where there's no status. I think that if you're on, this is a kind of a side piece to what judge zero one two asked, but as an actor who is in an established place on a set that is, let's say a series regular, someone who's been there a lot, the person who's coming in.

It's your job, whether you know them or not, to help them overcome that, uh, newness. Like, if they have

Music: to

Paul Adelstein: have status over you, you have to give that status. If they're supposed to be very, very familiar with you, you should probably lead that familiarity because coming into that situation, just socially, Professionally, before the cameras are rolling is like, if they don't know where the makeup trailer is, they don't know how the thing works.

They don't know what the vibe is. So, um, the dynamic that you, sorry, the dynamic that Chacho012 points out is at work all the time. It just depends on [00:37:00] the particulars.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I think it's one of the reasons, um, military brats and actors, uh, make friends really quickly for that reason. Like, if I meet someone in hair and makeup and we're supposed to have a relationship, we can have a conversation in 45 minutes that will get us there if we need to.

Like, I remember meeting Jeff Staltz. And we were supposed to play, uh, people who had a kid together and divorced and whatever. And like, from the time I shook his hand to the time we were shooting two hours later, I was like, I, okay. Great. Like there's that like, Oh, you know, so and so and you did this and there's that ability to go, I'm just going to, I'm going to dive off the cliff with you.

Hold my hand. Let's go. And I think that's cool. I like that about it. I love that about John

Paul Adelstein: Carol Lynch said, uh, I'm a, I don't know, same agency or something, said, you know who that is? The guy, he's like the husband in Fargo and he's in, he's in everything. Big, big, okay, big. I'd probably know if I saw him.

Big ball guy. He said, we're Carney. [00:38:00] We're Carney folk. You know, we're c hundred percent we're circus folk. Totally carneys. Um, and then Meryl Streep said, no, Mike Nichols said about Meryl Streep. In Silkwood, for instance, he said, and I'm not saying we're all Meryl Streep, but we all try to be is that she probably unconsciously shifts her soul a little bit, you know, uh, like he said, when they were shooting Silkwood, she became best friends with Cher said when they, she kind of had, whether it was an actual love affair, a kind of love affair with Kurt Russell, you know, it's like these things develop.

And that's why I think that's why people get confused and fall in love. Um, sometimes they stay in love, but sometimes it's, uh, context dependent.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But also like, I mean, I definitely had a level of devotion and loyalty to Wentworth. Yes. That, uh Whether or not it was healthy is an open question, but like, was singular, you know, and [00:39:00] like I'm, I'm a very sort of medievally loyal person.

Um, and so I do have, I do have friendships like that, but in terms of like, on that set. In the state of Texas, in the state of Illinois, when we were like, I would have jumped in front of a fucking bullet for him. I

Paul Adelstein: had a similar thing on private practice with, you know, I'd know Kate Walsh since I was 22 or 23 years old, and we were still very, very good friends.

Oh, wow. You know, we're supposed to play these best friends. We had done this one thing together, but we were immediately like, and like kind of went through that experience together, even though our characters from different romantic relationships are da da da da. You know, I was still as close as ever with Kate, but it was like not show specific.

Um, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. And it's not like a pretentious, um, acting exercise. It happens naturally. Mike

Sarah Wayne Callies: Nichols is interesting to identify it [00:40:00] as a soul thing. By the way, for those of you who don't know, Mike Nichols has passed away, but is an absolutely brilliant director of theater, film, and television.

And, I don't know if he ever did TV. He did. He did Ages of

Paul Adelstein: America, actually, on HBO.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, yeah. God, which I don't even think of as TV. Yeah, me neither. But, yes. Um, but there is some soul version of it. Yeah. Which is why it can be so profoundly dislocating. When you wrap and you go back to your other life and you can it can be very weird.

Um, and I think it's involuntary. I think, I think it's part of what makes us actors is we sometimes just kind of go, you know, we're doing this now. Um, and sometimes it lasts, you know, like I've got some friends that I've been on sets with that, uh, you know, where none of it changes. And then there are certain.

You know, there are certain things that are only in a bubble.

Paul Adelstein: You know, it's also a pressure cooker. It's a, it's a place where things are forged. Yeah. Kind of in fire, which is great. [00:41:00] Foxhole. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, at nancycp71 wants to know, Does Kellerman have a love life? I wanted the answer to this too. As soon as I read it.

Paul Adelstein: I mean, there is an intimation. At the end of season two, that he's in love with Caroline Reynolds and that she's Oh, yeah, she's kind of teased him, like, she's kind of like bread crumbed him into sticking around. They never made much of it. I know that in five, four, five, four, I had a wedding ring on when I was a congressman.

And then I know that in five, I'm when you were a congressman. Yeah. Yeah. When, uh, at the very, I came for one, like at the end of, four was the end, right? And then we came back for five, right, in 2016 or whatever.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, oh, oh, [00:42:00] okay, yes. At the end of

Paul Adelstein: four, like with the end of the I thought

Sarah Wayne Callies: you meant episode four this season.

No, no, no, I'm sorry. That's why I was trying to figure it out. The end of four, yeah, I

Paul Adelstein: had a wedding ring on.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And then you came back without it. And then in five, I

Paul Adelstein: was, and it was something about my kid, I was on the, I think in the scene where, uh, teabag breaks into the house, I think I'm On the phone with my ex wife.

There's some talk about custody or something. But, to your point, love life

Sarah Wayne Callies: But at this moment, there's not like It didn't

Paul Adelstein: seem like a

Music: No.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Married to the job?

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, a little bit. It doesn't seem like a sexual being to me. Or particularly romantic.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That all of a sudden made me think about how he could, uh, go out on a first date. Oh, and Crivecchi, on the other hand,

Paul Adelstein: he was getting after it. Oh, and Crivecchi's

Sarah Wayne Callies: the ladies man.

Paul Adelstein: With all that buffalo jerky.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, no, no, no, no. What? That's what he was a buffalo jerky? I know, I know. I'm still flagging that play.

Okay, fine. Um.[00:43:00]

What else do we have here?

Paul Adelstein: Okay. From Raphael Pascual via discord. I'm curious about how some prison break actors feel about being so strongly associated with their characters. When you look at Sarah's Instagram comments, significant portion are still about prison break. Same is true about Wendt. Hmm. Uh, Sarah's played many other great roles.

Does it, does it affect you? Is it a curse? Is it a blessing? Um, feelings? Thoughts? Uh, we got into that with the Stacey Keech episode regarding Stacey. But, um, how do you feel about it?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, you know, I feel like we've touched on bits of this throughout. Oddly, this morning, I'm going to take that question in a slightly different direction.

Um, because I have this on my phone case. Um, which is a pride flag. Y'all means all? Yeah, y'all means all and I recently posted something that was a selfie in the mirror where people could see it and this has happened a few times and The online reaction to it from some people [00:44:00] is I will use the word uncharitable because I am more polite than they are disappointing and Um, I think part of my answer to that question has to do with why I don't think Wentworth will be on the podcast and why he said he won't do the show again, which is because he doesn't want to play straight characters anymore.

And I respect that as an artist, but it also really, um, the dissonance between people who love the show and who choose to be anti queer is one that I'm struggling with right now, today. Um, because when I see that negativity and judgment and uncharitable reaction on my socials, I think, man, that's pretty easy for me to shoulder.

I'm just disappointed, you know, I'm just like, I wish [00:45:00] you felt differently. But I know that people who are in the queer community themselves. are being targeted and, um, I understand that Raphael is probably not asking this question in this way. Not quite, but your point is, your

Paul Adelstein: point is important.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and my, my point is that Sarah Tancredi would be very, uh, powerfully aligned with the queer community as an ally.

And, um, and I think it's, I think it's wild the way Wentworth played a character that was both white and straight. And he is neither, uh, exclusively. And

Music: Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: tough. And that's, that's not easy. No.

Paul Adelstein: Um That's not easy. It goes to a kind of subset of her question. About, which goes to kind of a sense of, um, ownership.[00:46:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Ownership that fans have over characters.

Paul Adelstein: Over the show, yeah, yeah. Yeah, which is okay. I mean, that's part of the fun, but, you know, confusing a person with their character.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think genuinely dangerous in some circumstances.

Paul Adelstein: Slippery. And, um, you know, people, uh, I don't consider gay rights politics. I consider it human rights.

Um, so I would say people can disagree about politics. I think disagreeing about human rights is a different story. Um, and the. I don't know. I guess this is a separate point, but the part of the question being identified with your character is a question of boundary on people's parts and what they feel like they can say to you because they have seen you on television and like a character of yours.

Um, like, why are you getting old?[00:47:00]

It's like, well, here's how time works.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I don't know if you skipped that day. I also think there's a bit of a language

Paul Adelstein: barrier. There's a lot of don't get old while you're getting old. Um, but you know, I think similar on my Instagram, like I could post about anything and I would say about 20 to 25 percent of it is just.

Misspelled or Kellerman exclamation point. Killer man, Kohlerman, which I love. I love all of them. I keep, I keep, I like take screenshots of the really great ones. Um, I have no problem with it, like artistically. Um, I, I, I, I, I'm glad the show and the character, uh, resonates with people. I get it. I think I personally get it enough from other characters.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, uh. It's not the primary one for you. It's the

Paul Adelstein: primary. Well, it's demographic specific. [00:48:00] And, and it is probably country specific, country specific, and it is also cyclical in terms of like what's being replayed where, like what's on Netflix, like private practice was on Netflix for a while and there was a huge difference and like when Girlfriend's Guide was like, it's that thing and the Kevin Hart show came out, it was like,

Sarah Wayne Callies: oh, everyone

Paul Adelstein: was

Sarah Wayne Callies: like, oh, yeah,

Paul Adelstein: yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I will say like as just one final button on that for me, it is the answer to that question is part of why I do it. Why I wanted to do Laurie on The Walking Dead because she was 180 from Sarah, right? And that those two characters are important to me because it you know, because it stops you from being pigeonholed.

Mm hmm

We've probably got time for another one or two of these. Here's a quick one for you. Sweet CXO Okay. Uh, wants to know, Which two Prison Break characters do you wish worked together or worked together [00:49:00] more? Do you have any, like, pairings?

Music: Oh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That, like, in your mind, Oh, we still haven't asked that other one about, Answered that one about what would be different in 2005 instead of 2000.

Instead of 2025. Yeah,

Paul Adelstein: well that's going to be a long conversation. Let's, maybe we should punt that one.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, we can hang on to that for later. We can just be thinking about it. Um, But any like, I feel like

Paul Adelstein: they mixed everyone up pretty, Pairings. Pretty darn well.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I would have liked to have seen Westmoreland.

Oh, I would have loved, I didn't have any scenes with Bellic.

Paul Adelstein: I would have loved, I would have loved some scenes with, With Wade. You had no scenes with Wade?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, I didn't have enough with Wade. Yeah. For sure. Um, I would have liked Westmoreland and Pope. Oh, right. Like, The Elder Statesman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would have liked to have seen There's another Alright, so there's another prequel thing that, um, Pierluigi got us onto these ideas.

I would love to see [00:50:00] five episodes of what Westmoreland's first six months at Fox River were like when he was young, and Pope was young, and they were both Shrushing. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Exactly. Oh, there's a good spin off.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right? That could be fantastic. Yeah. We should start writing

Paul Adelstein: fan fiction. Ha ha ha

Sarah Wayne Callies: ha ha! We could!

No, we shouldn't. Um, we won't.

Paul Adelstein: Alright, I think we should wrap it up.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay, there's another one or two of these that I want to answer later because I think they're really fascinating. You guys are crushing it, um, with these questions are

Paul Adelstein: great.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, and there is now One shout out that we have to

Paul Adelstein: yeah, so before we wrap it up We got a call in on our call in line Which we love when people call in 401 3p break from Rebecca who's 14 years old She called into our call line and she left a message asking us to give a shout out to her brother Will Because it would make Will's week.

Well, well here we are your [00:51:00] sister's awesome. You're out And shouting out that you probably have the best sister in the world.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Your sister's fantastic. Treat her

Paul Adelstein: nice.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Treat her nice. Because she just did something nice for you. Hope you guys are

Paul Adelstein: good. And stay out

Sarah Wayne Callies: of prison. And stay out of prison. Yeah.

That's advice from Uncle Paul. Stay out of prison.

Paul Adelstein: Thank you to all our Fish's folks and friends for listening. We invite you to subscribe to the Watch Party episodes where you can watch the show with us live and listen to our hilarious and insightful talk show. Commentary. Uh, it's available to our subscribers.

Join the Patreon link on the show page wherever you're listening right now.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And over on, uh, YouTube, besides the video edition of this season, you can go back and listen to season one episodes translated into your language. Amazing. We live in the future. Um, which we still think is really cool technology.

So thank you everyone and be excellent to each other. Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a Calibre Studio production.

Paul Adelstein: Your hosts have been inmates, [00:52:00] Sarah Wayne Kellis and Paul Edelstein.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Our prison warden is producer Ben Haber.

Paul Adelstein: Front man of our jailhouse rock band is Paul Edelstein who made all our music.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Our prison yard tattoo artist logo and brand designer is John Nunzio and Little Big Brands. Check them out at www.littlebigbrands.com.

Paul Adelstein: Follow us on Instagram and YouTube at Prison Break Podcast. Email us at pb podcast@caliberstudio.com and call us at four oh one three p Break

Sarah Wayne Callies: Prison Breaking Messer.

And Paul has been a caliber studio production.

Music: for

S2E8 final: listening.