INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we

INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

HOST: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.

HOST: In this episode, recorded in February 2025,

HOST: we'll be speaking with Annie Hudson and Jenny Coles

HOST: from the Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel.

HOST: At the end of 2024, the Panel published

HOST: two new reports: a national review

HOST: into child sexual abuse within the family environment

HOST: and their annual report for 2023-24.

HOST: In this podcast, we'll be talking about the key

HOST: themes and learning from the reports and what this

HOST: means for professionals working with children.

HOST: Welcome, Annie and Jenny.

HOST: Thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.

HOST: So to get us started, could you introduce yourselves

HOST: and tell us a bit about the Panel and its roles and

HOST: responsibilities?

JENNY COLES: Hello, I'm Jenny Coles.

JENNY COLES: I'm a member of the Child Practice Review

JENNY COLES: Panel, I've been on the Panel since 2022, and

JENNY COLES: my background is local authority children's

JENNY COLES: services.

ANNIE HUDSON: Hello, I'm Annie Hudson and I'm chair of the

ANNIE HUDSON: Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel.

ANNIE HUDSON: My background is also in children's services

ANNIE HUDSON: like Jenny. I started life as a social worker

ANNIE HUDSON: and then ultimately, like Jenny, was a

ANNIE HUDSON: director of Children's Services.

ANNIE HUDSON: The Panel was established through the

ANNIE HUDSON: Children and Social Work Act in 2017,

ANNIE HUDSON: and had its first meeting, I think, in 2018.

ANNIE HUDSON: Essentially, it was part of

ANNIE HUDSON: the new architecture around multi-agency

ANNIE HUDSON: working in England to protect and

ANNIE HUDSON: safeguard children and it has three core

ANNIE HUDSON: roles, really. Firstly, it provides oversight

ANNIE HUDSON: of the system of local reviews that

ANNIE HUDSON: take place at a local level by local

ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding partners in response to serious

ANNIE HUDSON: incidents where children have been harmed or

ANNIE HUDSON: indeed died as a result of abuse and neglect.

ANNIE HUDSON: So that means we see all the rapid reviews

ANNIE HUDSON: and all the local safeguarding practice

ANNIE HUDSON: reviews that are undertaken by local

ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding partners.

ANNIE HUDSON: Secondly, we provide a system

ANNIE HUDSON: learning role, which, by looking at

ANNIE HUDSON: all of those reviews — and through some of

ANNIE HUDSON: the thematic reviews, including the one that

ANNIE HUDSON: we're going to be talking about, about child

ANNIE HUDSON: sexual abuse in the family environment —

ANNIE HUDSON: looks at some of the patterns in practice

ANNIE HUDSON: that have emerged from those reviews, with a

ANNIE HUDSON: view of identifying where improvements may

ANNIE HUDSON: need to be made, either at a local, regional

ANNIE HUDSON: or national level, and also where there may

ANNIE HUDSON: need to be changes in policy to better

ANNIE HUDSON: support high quality child protection and

ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding work.

ANNIE HUDSON: And then thirdly, the Panel has a system

ANNIE HUDSON: leadership role working with many others,

ANNIE HUDSON: including safeguarding partners and national

ANNIE HUDSON: organisations — including the NSPCC — to work

ANNIE HUDSON: together to identify what's working well

ANNIE HUDSON: in the system of safeguarding children and

ANNIE HUDSON: also where there needs to be improvement.

ANNIE HUDSON: So in a sense, we're a...

ANNIE HUDSON: I mean, we provide a bit of a weather vane

ANNIE HUDSON: through the lens — and it is a very specific

ANNIE HUDSON: lens — of where things have gone wrong for

ANNIE HUDSON: children about how well the system

ANNIE HUDSON: that we have in place is working for children

ANNIE HUDSON: and their families.

HOST: Thank you. And you mentioned there that you work with

HOST: the local safeguarding partnerships in England.

HOST: Could you expand a little bit more about how you do

HOST: that?

ANNIE HUDSON: We do that in a number of ways.

ANNIE HUDSON: So first and foremost,

ANNIE HUDSON: we receive and comment, provide them with

ANNIE HUDSON: feedback, on all of the rapid reviews and all

ANNIE HUDSON: of the LCSPRs that they undertake every year.

ANNIE HUDSON: So in the 2023-24 year, it was about

ANNIE HUDSON: 340 serious

ANNIE HUDSON: incidents which generated reviews.

ANNIE HUDSON: And we look at those reviews and then we

ANNIE HUDSON: provide feedback on those reviews to both

ANNIE HUDSON: assist their local learning, but also to

ANNIE HUDSON: assist in their improvements in practice.

ANNIE HUDSON: We use those reviews to undertake thematic

ANNIE HUDSON: reviews. We did the one on sexual

ANNIE HUDSON: abuse. We will be producing, very shortly,

ANNIE HUDSON: a thematic analysis about, firstly, race

ANNIE HUDSON: and racial bias and racism in child

ANNIE HUDSON: protection, and also one on neglect.

ANNIE HUDSON: So we pick topics or themes and use

ANNIE HUDSON: that local material from safeguarding

ANNIE HUDSON: partners. And in all stages we look

ANNIE HUDSON: to involve... not always all safeguarding

ANNIE HUDSON: partners, but, you know, selected

ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding partners to really help build up

ANNIE HUDSON: national knowledge and intelligence about

ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding practice.

HOST: So with all of this learning that you're gathering,

HOST: how does the Panel share that more widely with the

HOST: local and the national reviews? How do you share that

HOST: and what are some of those common themes?

ANNIE HUDSON: We do that through reports, but we also do

ANNIE HUDSON: that through newsletters, we do that through

ANNIE HUDSON: webinars.

ANNIE HUDSON: So for example, again with the sexual abuse

ANNIE HUDSON: national review, we had two really

ANNIE HUDSON: well-attended webinars — I think they both

ANNIE HUDSON: had more than 200 people coming along for

ANNIE HUDSON: each one — as a way of not just disseminating

ANNIE HUDSON: the evidence from those reviews, but also

ANNIE HUDSON: to engage people in discussion, active

ANNIE HUDSON: discussion about some of the issues which

ANNIE HUDSON: are often very complex in nature,

ANNIE HUDSON: and therefore there aren't simple solutions

ANNIE HUDSON: to resolving some of those problems.

ANNIE HUDSON: But Jenny, perhaps you want to add to that?

JENNY COLES: Yeah. And I think we're learning in terms of

JENNY COLES: how we're doing webinars and the latest ones

JENNY COLES: on our latest review of child sexual abuse in

JENNY COLES: the family, as Annie said, had a lot of

JENNY COLES: participants. It was only an hour, but we got

JENNY COLES: a lot of information over in discussion and we

JENNY COLES: welcomed the feedback because then that adds

JENNY COLES: to our learning. But we also are linked

JENNY COLES: into regions — each Panel member has a region

JENNY COLES: — and we do attend regional conferences, talk

JENNY COLES: about the Panel, but also listen to what

JENNY COLES: people are doing on the ground and what

JENNY COLES: they're learning, and what they think would be

JENNY COLES: a broader set of learning, whether it's at

JENNY COLES: their regional level or the national level as

JENNY COLES: well.

ANNIE HUDSON: And one other thing to add is that— one of

ANNIE HUDSON: the things we're doing at the moment is that

ANNIE HUDSON: we have commissioned from an independent

ANNIE HUDSON: organisation an evaluation of the impact of

ANNIE HUDSON: the Panel's work. We are also in a continuous

ANNIE HUDSON: learning cycle and we want to

ANNIE HUDSON: get that feedback in evidence about which of

ANNIE HUDSON: the things we do have most or least impact,

ANNIE HUDSON: because we need to go on changing our

ANNIE HUDSON: practice and the ways in which we engage with

ANNIE HUDSON: the 140-50 safeguarding partners around the

ANNIE HUDSON: country.

HOST: Yeah. And how are the local safeguarding

HOST: partnerships— what are they doing locally themselves?

HOST: What are they gathering and taking from the national

HOST: Panel and what are they getting and gathering from

HOST: elsewhere? And that will be a really interesting

HOST: piece of work to see what people are saying about

HOST: that.

ANNIE HUDSON: Yeah. And I think some of the themes

ANNIE HUDSON: that we've identified and we've majored

ANNIE HUDSON: on, either in annual reports or in national

ANNIE HUDSON: reviews, have come absolutely from the

ANNIE HUDSON: evidence and the conversations with

ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding partners.

ANNIE HUDSON: For example, in the annual report this year,

ANNIE HUDSON: one of the three spotlighted themes was

ANNIE HUDSON: around mental health and mental health of

ANNIE HUDSON: children and young people.

ANNIE HUDSON: And that has been a very, very consistent

ANNIE HUDSON: theme, hasn't it Jenny, from many reviews,

ANNIE HUDSON: where children, for example, have taken their

ANNIE HUDSON: own lives or where they've been involved

ANNIE HUDSON: either in harm in their own home environment

ANNIE HUDSON: or externally. And a lot of the messaging

ANNIE HUDSON: back from safeguarding partners has been

ANNIE HUDSON: about the adequacy or otherwise of

ANNIE HUDSON: mental health services, the links between

ANNIE HUDSON: mental health services and children's

ANNIE HUDSON: services and so on. So, we try and pick

ANNIE HUDSON: up and then get some more indepth evidence

ANNIE HUDSON: around themes that also local areas are

ANNIE HUDSON: highlighting.

JENNY COLES: And I think to add to that, in the annual

JENNY COLES: review: looking at the mental health of

JENNY COLES: parents and how agencies who

JENNY COLES: predominantly might work with adults, how

JENNY COLES: it's really important they see that individual

JENNY COLES: as a parent as well and take a holistic and

JENNY COLES: family approach. This has been a fairly

JENNY COLES: constant theme in reviews where mental

JENNY COLES: health in parents has been present.

HOST: And I know we're going to talk about the annual

HOST: report a little bit later on, but the other

HOST: big report we published last year was your national

HOST: review into child sex abuse within the family

HOST: environment.

HOST: This report explores what is needed to enable

HOST: practitioners to identify and respond to concerns of

HOST: child sexual abuse, putting the needs of children

HOST: first. How did you decide within that review

HOST: what areas to focus on?

JENNY COLES: Well, first of all, we decided to do the

JENNY COLES: review because that had been a theme

JENNY COLES: which has grown in evidence over the last 18

JENNY COLES: months to two years.

JENNY COLES: And at the point where we did it, we had a

JENNY COLES: really rich evidence body.

JENNY COLES: In fact, we looked at the experience of 193

JENNY COLES: children with the Centre of expertise [on

JENNY COLES: child sexual abuse] doing that fieldwork and

JENNY COLES: writing that report.

JENNY COLES: We felt that perhaps what had happened

JENNY COLES: over the years, with absolutely the right

JENNY COLES: focus on child sexual exploitation outside

JENNY COLES: of the family and criminal exploitation, but

JENNY COLES: that had perhaps been done at the expense

JENNY COLES: of not progressing practice and supporting

JENNY COLES: and safeguarding children who'd been sexually

JENNY COLES: abused within their families.

JENNY COLES: And we tested that out with safeguarding

JENNY COLES: partners and they said, yeah, that's an area

JENNY COLES: that increasingly they were finding

JENNY COLES: challenging. So, for those reasons, we

JENNY COLES: decided to make this a national review.

HOST: And I know when you published the review, you called

HOST: it 'I wanted them to notice'.

HOST: Why did you call it that?

JENNY COLES: So we interviewed two young people for this

JENNY COLES: review, and "I wanted them to notice" was

JENNY COLES: a quote from one of those young people, and we

JENNY COLES: thought it really powerfully summed up what

JENNY COLES: the review was about. The key finding of the

JENNY COLES: review was that practitioners found

JENNY COLES: great difficulty in talking directly with

JENNY COLES: children around child sexual abuse.

JENNY COLES: And often the feedback was that when they

JENNY COLES: were in the child protection system and maybe

JENNY COLES: on a child protection plan, the whole focus

JENNY COLES: on evidence and verbal disclosure meant that

JENNY COLES: they were often put on a plan for a broader

JENNY COLES: category, like neglect.

JENNY COLES: So that was a key finding of the review and,

JENNY COLES: in fact, linked in to the national and local

JENNY COLES: recommendations for safeguarding partnerships

JENNY COLES: about training for practitioners across

JENNY COLES: the system, in terms of talking to children,

JENNY COLES: having the confidence and the skills to do

JENNY COLES: that.

HOST: Yeah, it is difficult.

HOST: Practitioners working with children feel that they're

HOST: not allowed to ask somehow, don't they?

HOST: And yet what we're hearing from the young people is

HOST: they do want to be asked.

JENNY COLES: Absolutely. And again, another key

JENNY COLES: and helpful finding of the review was looking

JENNY COLES: at the interface of the child protection

JENNY COLES: system and the criminal justice system.

JENNY COLES: And what appears to have happened over really

JENNY COLES: probably, Annie, we'd say the last 20 years or

JENNY COLES: more, that the criminal justice system and the

JENNY COLES: focus on evidence for that has actually

JENNY COLES: prevented practice developing.

JENNY COLES: That's a quite a strong phrase, but it was

JENNY COLES: very clear what came out of this review, and

JENNY COLES: that actually the child protection system, the

JENNY COLES: safeguarding system, operates on the balance

JENNY COLES: of probabilities and not the

JENNY COLES: threshold for criminal evidence.

JENNY COLES: What we're saying here is we need

JENNY COLES: a step change in how children

JENNY COLES: are supported and families are supported

JENNY COLES: where child sexual abuse has happened within

JENNY COLES: the family.

HOST: One of the things I noticed when I read the report is

HOST: that when cases were referred to the police and they

HOST: decided that they were going to take no further

HOST: action, then social workers

HOST: or other practitioners working with the families

HOST: believed that that meant that the sexual abuse hadn't

HOST: happened because the police hadn't taken action.

JENNY COLES: And the feedback we had that people felt they

JENNY COLES: couldn't take this any further; that they were

JENNY COLES: worried about talking directly to children in

JENNY COLES: case that prevented

JENNY COLES: further investigations, when in fact the

JENNY COLES: police, when they stop an investigation, if

JENNY COLES: they don't feel there's enough evidence, it's

JENNY COLES: for now. It doesn't mean to say that can't be

JENNY COLES: reopened, and it doesn't mean to say

JENNY COLES: that professionals shouldn't carry on working

JENNY COLES: and supporting families and talking about the

JENNY COLES: abuse to ensure that children's needs are met.

ANNIE HUDSON: One other facet of the review, which I

ANNIE HUDSON: think is really powerful and evidences that

ANNIE HUDSON: point that Jenny's just made, is that we

ANNIE HUDSON: still operate as a system

ANNIE HUDSON: in a very fragmented, siloed way.

ANNIE HUDSON: That was the finding, which I think many of

ANNIE HUDSON: us were quite shocked by, which was that of

ANNIE HUDSON: those 193 children that Jenny just described,

ANNIE HUDSON: in a third of the cases, the instances,

ANNIE HUDSON: family members were known to have sexually

ANNIE HUDSON: abused a child in the past, or to present a

ANNIE HUDSON: risk either because they've been convicted or

ANNIE HUDSON: they've been the subject of an allegation

ANNIE HUDSON: previously.

ANNIE HUDSON: When you unravel that, what it highlighted

ANNIE HUDSON: was how information about people who could

ANNIE HUDSON: pose a risk — and these were predominantly

ANNIE HUDSON: men — possibly historically,

ANNIE HUDSON: possibly in another part of the country with

ANNIE HUDSON: another family, that information was not

ANNIE HUDSON: made available to the children's services,

ANNIE HUDSON: people who are working with children in the

ANNIE HUDSON: contemporaneous context.

ANNIE HUDSON: So there's something about how we share

ANNIE HUDSON: information about people who can pose a

ANNIE HUDSON: severe risk to children, but also how we

ANNIE HUDSON: need to be thinking outside the box sometimes

ANNIE HUDSON: about the risks. So, for example, somebody

ANNIE HUDSON: who may have been the focus of

ANNIE HUDSON: a police inquiry about indecent images of

ANNIE HUDSON: children.

ANNIE HUDSON: There was sometimes an assumption that that

ANNIE HUDSON: meant that they would not pose a risk to

ANNIE HUDSON: their own children, which in many instances,

ANNIE HUDSON: some instances, absolutely not; was a very

ANNIE HUDSON: incorrect assumption.

ANNIE HUDSON: So we really do need to bring all the

ANNIE HUDSON: agencies together who have expertise in

ANNIE HUDSON: this area, including criminal justice

ANNIE HUDSON: agencies, including probation, working

ANNIE HUDSON: together so that they get that joined up

ANNIE HUDSON: picture of risk of harm to children, that's

ANNIE HUDSON: not just about the current situation, but

ANNIE HUDSON: maybe about the historical information about

ANNIE HUDSON: key family members.

JENNY COLES: And although we've made national

JENNY COLES: recommendations, we're really clear that

JENNY COLES: safeguarding partnerships can get on and

JENNY COLES: we hope that the recommendations we've made

JENNY COLES: are helpful and the report's helpful for them

JENNY COLES: to have an action plan — for a better word —

JENNY COLES: about what to do next and improve their

JENNY COLES: practice. And, you know, this is all based on

JENNY COLES: the evidence that safeguarding partners

JENNY COLES: have put into their local practice reviews.

JENNY COLES: So it is based on real practice that's

JENNY COLES: happening currently.

JENNY COLES: We hope this is helpful.

JENNY COLES: We've had a lot of people on the webinars.

JENNY COLES: It is an area that people have wanted us to

JENNY COLES: concentrate on.

JENNY COLES: So we look forward to seeing how

JENNY COLES: practice has developed and we're just thinking

JENNY COLES: about how we can support that, but also

JENNY COLES: monitor it to make sure that with all the hard

JENNY COLES: work and the responses of many practitioners

JENNY COLES: and children and young people, that they can

JENNY COLES: see an improvement in how children are

JENNY COLES: supported.

HOST: You talked a little bit— well, you mentioned the

HOST: recommendations for government and recommendations

HOST: for safeguarding partners as well.

HOST: Would you like to expand on that a little bit?

JENNY COLES: I mean, in terms of national recommendations,

JENNY COLES: we're asking that there should be a national

JENNY COLES: strategic plan around child sexual abuse —

JENNY COLES: there is a child sexual abuse strategy,

JENNY COLES: but that's quite dated now probably — and

JENNY COLES: that that plan takes in some of these key

JENNY COLES: findings we're talking about.

JENNY COLES: Nationally, working with professional bodies,

JENNY COLES: we see a change in how practitioners

JENNY COLES: are trained and get the necessary skills and

JENNY COLES: guidance and a multi-agency training, but from

JENNY COLES: the beginning of their professional careers,

JENNY COLES: and not seeing this as a specialism; because

JENNY COLES: the feedback from families, and from the

JENNY COLES: experts by experience that were consulted as

JENNY COLES: part of this review, is early intervention

JENNY COLES: here can make such a difference in terms of

JENNY COLES: lessening future vulnerability.

JENNY COLES: We also had some national recommendations for

JENNY COLES: the family court justice system and Cafcass to

JENNY COLES: consider what's in this report.

JENNY COLES: They were met as stakeholders, in terms of

JENNY COLES: formulating these recommendations, and we

JENNY COLES: really hope that that will be taken on board,

JENNY COLES: particularly within the court arena, and we

JENNY COLES: hope this will be helpful. And particularly

JENNY COLES: regarding the really important thing around

JENNY COLES: health support and meeting health needs of

JENNY COLES: children that have been sexually abused.

JENNY COLES: So there's very clear pathways and that

JENNY COLES: commissioners are clear that services they

JENNY COLES: commission within the NHS and providers

JENNY COLES: can meet, and people are skilled to meet, the

JENNY COLES: needs of children.

HOST: So that was a huge piece of work doing

HOST: that report into child sexual abuse within the family

HOST: environment and you've talked about all the different

HOST: ways that you've engaged there with stakeholders and

HOST: are feeding stuff back out.

HOST: I wonder if we can move on now to the annual report,

HOST: which was published in December 2024.

HOST: So that looks at safeguarding incidents across

HOST: and over the last year.

HOST: What are those key themes that were coming through

HOST: last year?

ANNIE HUDSON: Yes, this was looking at about 330

ANNIE HUDSON: serious incidents, which actually generated

ANNIE HUDSON: more than that number of reviews.

ANNIE HUDSON: One of the first things to note is that that

ANNIE HUDSON: represented and reflected a reduction of

ANNIE HUDSON: about 18% on the number of serious incidents

ANNIE HUDSON: notified to the previous year.

ANNIE HUDSON: We don't quite understand what that's about,

ANNIE HUDSON: and further work is being undertaken to

ANNIE HUDSON: interrogate that, because we need to

ANNIE HUDSON: understand whether that's because things

ANNIE HUDSON: are not being notified when they need to be,

ANNIE HUDSON: or whether it's actually that there has been

ANNIE HUDSON: a diminuation in certain types of abuse

ANNIE HUDSON: and harm for children.

ANNIE HUDSON: Just in terms of top lines, I suppose the

ANNIE HUDSON: first thing to be aware of is that

ANNIE HUDSON: babies under one remain the most vulnerable

ANNIE HUDSON: group for all sorts of understandable and

ANNIE HUDSON: to be expected reasons.

ANNIE HUDSON: The other age, which is, if you like, most

ANNIE HUDSON: dangerous in terms of prevalence and

ANNIE HUDSON: propensity is 16- to 17-year-olds.

ANNIE HUDSON: Those children, it is much more in terms

ANNIE HUDSON: of extrafamilial harm.

ANNIE HUDSON: With babies, obviously it's much more likely

ANNIE HUDSON: to be particular physical abuse or neglect

ANNIE HUDSON: within the family.

ANNIE HUDSON: There is a continuation of some of the

ANNIE HUDSON: patterns we've seen in the past in terms of

ANNIE HUDSON: children, for example, who are out of

ANNIE HUDSON: education. That is partly children who are in

ANNIE HUDSON: elective home education and also children who

ANNIE HUDSON: are not on a school roll or are not in

ANNIE HUDSON: mainstream education and missing a lot of

ANNIE HUDSON: education, and that's been a major issue of

ANNIE HUDSON: concern.

ANNIE HUDSON: Earlier last year, we published a thematic

ANNIE HUDSON: analysis of children who had been seriously

ANNIE HUDSON: harmed or died and who were electively home

ANNIE HUDSON: educated — not necessarily as a result,

ANNIE HUDSON: because most children in EHE, of course,

ANNIE HUDSON: thrive and are very happy and are safe.

ANNIE HUDSON: But there is a small group of children who

ANNIE HUDSON: don't have that oversight of agencies

ANNIE HUDSON: in terms of their wellbeing and safety.

ANNIE HUDSON: So that education dimension is really

ANNIE HUDSON: important and just reinforces the importance

ANNIE HUDSON: of children being in school because of all

ANNIE HUDSON: the benefits of school, but also because it

ANNIE HUDSON: does mean if they are vulnerable and at risk,

ANNIE HUDSON: schools will have a much more daily ability

ANNIE HUDSON: to take the temperature on how well those

ANNIE HUDSON: children are and how safe they are.

ANNIE HUDSON: We also look at things like whether children

ANNIE HUDSON: are known to services, whether they're on a

ANNIE HUDSON: child in need plan.

ANNIE HUDSON: Quite a number, something like just over 40%

ANNIE HUDSON: of children who are the focus of those

ANNIE HUDSON: serious incidents, were known to have been a

ANNIE HUDSON: child in need, either at the time of the

ANNIE HUDSON: incident or previously.

ANNIE HUDSON: And again, that's not that surprising because

ANNIE HUDSON: these are the most vulnerable children.

ANNIE HUDSON: So you would expect that they may well have

ANNIE HUDSON: had contact with children's services,

ANNIE HUDSON: children's social care.

ANNIE HUDSON: A relatively small number were children

ANNIE HUDSON: looked after and they had suffered harm or

ANNIE HUDSON: abuse either in placements — foster

ANNIE HUDSON: placements — or were in residential

ANNIE HUDSON: placements and then harmed outside the home.

ANNIE HUDSON: So what you get through the annual report, I

ANNIE HUDSON: suppose, is a picture of the complexity

ANNIE HUDSON: of needs, the complexity of age, and other

ANNIE HUDSON: demographics. Something like 75% of

ANNIE HUDSON: the children were from White backgrounds.

ANNIE HUDSON: There's an underrepresentation

ANNIE HUDSON: compared to the population of children from

ANNIE HUDSON: Asian backgrounds, and conversely, an

ANNIE HUDSON: overrepresentation of children from Black

ANNIE HUDSON: backgrounds, and it's partly that that has

ANNIE HUDSON: been the driver behind a piece of work we're

ANNIE HUDSON: doing at the moment, and which we will

ANNIE HUDSON: publish shortly, about race, racial

ANNIE HUDSON: bias, racism and ethnicity in rapid reviews

ANNIE HUDSON: and LCSPRs.

ANNIE HUDSON: Because we need to understand better what is

ANNIE HUDSON: going on there in terms of under- and

ANNIE HUDSON: overrepresentation. But most importantly, how

ANNIE HUDSON: does practice need to change and be

ANNIE HUDSON: more responsive to the needs of those

ANNIE HUDSON: children? So that's the picture of the

ANNIE HUDSON: children.

ANNIE HUDSON: Then what we've done this year is to build on

ANNIE HUDSON: previous analysis of some of the big practice

ANNIE HUDSON: themes that we've seen over the years around,

ANNIE HUDSON: you know, focusing on the voice and

ANNIE HUDSON: experience of children, about bringing

ANNIE HUDSON: critical analysis to assessment and so on,

ANNIE HUDSON: and looked at three particular themes:

ANNIE HUDSON: parental mental health, children's mental

ANNIE HUDSON: health, and children who have been harmed in

ANNIE HUDSON: the extrafamilial environment, and done a bit

ANNIE HUDSON: of a deep dive around that.

ANNIE HUDSON: And there are some common themes which

ANNIE HUDSON: perhaps we can talk through about what we saw

ANNIE HUDSON: in relation to those issues.

JENNY COLES: A key theme throughout, as you'd probably

JENNY COLES: expect, is multi-agency working.

JENNY COLES: We always say, there should be better

JENNY COLES: multi-agency working, people work in silos;

JENNY COLES: but it is really complex.

JENNY COLES: And we thought these three areas illustrated

JENNY COLES: that and we understand that.

JENNY COLES: But what our evidence shows from these reviews

JENNY COLES: that in fact agencies, even though they come

JENNY COLES: together in the child protection system

JENNY COLES: through core groups or various professional

JENNY COLES: planning groups, they're still going away and

JENNY COLES: doing their actions for their own agency in a

JENNY COLES: silo rather than working

JENNY COLES: together. So really, it's a completely

JENNY COLES: multi-agency approach.

JENNY COLES: And, you know, it's very clear that the

JENNY COLES: complexity of the challenges that families and

JENNY COLES: children and young people face require even

JENNY COLES: closer collaboration than probably they did

JENNY COLES: ten years ago, and a flexibility

JENNY COLES: to operate and consider that range

JENNY COLES: of information and how other

JENNY COLES: professionals or practitioners working with

JENNY COLES: the family or having contact with the family

JENNY COLES: are responding. And the system that assists

JENNY COLES: them — so the different panels, the various

JENNY COLES: risk panels, particularly for those young

JENNY COLES: people at risk of extra familial harm — even

JENNY COLES: though they're multi-agency, the range of

JENNY COLES: arenas that they're looked at and they're

JENNY COLES: considered in don't always work

JENNY COLES: together. So what you get at the end of the

JENNY COLES: day, rather than a real focus, perhaps,

JENNY COLES: on what is going to make the difference for

JENNY COLES: this child or family, is

JENNY COLES: watered down by the complexity of

JENNY COLES: the system that's trying to deliver the

JENNY COLES: support, if you get what I mean.

JENNY COLES: That was clear on the way through.

JENNY COLES: And I think, you know, in terms of the

JENNY COLES: learning — and we do get feedback from

JENNY COLES: safeguarding partners about what they've done

JENNY COLES: in between, because it takes some time to

JENNY COLES: publish a review, particularly if there might

JENNY COLES: be a criminal investigation or a court trial.

JENNY COLES: It shows that people are trying to streamline

JENNY COLES: what they do and they are — particularly

JENNY COLES: around the extrafamilial harms — setting up

JENNY COLES: multi-agency hubs, bringing professionals

JENNY COLES: together. And that is learning from what's

JENNY COLES: happened out of some of these serious

JENNY COLES: incidents and reviews.

HOST: That must be really rewarding for the Panel: having

HOST: a review taking place and then seeing what is being

HOST: put into place following that.

HOST: Do you get a lot of that kind of feedback?

JENNY COLES: Well we're encouraging partnerships to do it.

JENNY COLES: And in our feedback letters we say it would

JENNY COLES: have been really helpful— you know, you've

JENNY COLES: made a comment that the actions we can put in

JENNY COLES: place, but it would be really helpful just to

JENNY COLES: know how they're going, because that all adds

JENNY COLES: to our database.

HOST: Okay. Shall we pause there for now, and then we can

HOST: come back in the second half for the podcast and we

HOST: can look in more detail at how to translate

HOST: the learning from the reports into improvements

HOST: for safeguarding practice.

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning Podcast.

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was

OUTRO: up-to-date, but the world of safeguarding and child

OUTRO: protection is ever-changing.

OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current

OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

OUTRO: information or resources, please visit

OUTRO: our website for professionals at

OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.