1 00:00:03,090 --> 00:00:06,149 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we 2 00:00:06,150 --> 00:00:08,999 INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,209 INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation. 4 00:00:12,210 --> 00:00:15,329 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and 5 00:00:15,330 --> 00:00:18,449 INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together 6 00:00:18,450 --> 00:00:21,209 INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe. 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,329 HOST: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. 8 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:31,199 HOST: In this episode, recorded in February 2025, 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,779 HOST: we'll be speaking with Annie Hudson and Jenny Coles 10 00:00:33,780 --> 00:00:37,379 HOST: from the Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel. 11 00:00:37,380 --> 00:00:40,409 HOST: At the end of 2024, the Panel published 12 00:00:40,410 --> 00:00:43,709 HOST: two new reports: a national review 13 00:00:43,710 --> 00:00:47,129 HOST: into child sexual abuse within the family environment 14 00:00:47,130 --> 00:00:49,406 HOST: and their annual report for 2023-24. 15 00:00:51,990 --> 00:00:54,299 HOST: In this podcast, we'll be talking about the key 16 00:00:54,300 --> 00:00:57,179 HOST: themes and learning from the reports and what this 17 00:00:57,180 --> 00:01:00,639 HOST: means for professionals working with children. 18 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:02,289 HOST: Welcome, Annie and Jenny. 19 00:01:02,290 --> 00:01:05,049 HOST: Thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. 20 00:01:05,050 --> 00:01:08,559 HOST: So to get us started, could you introduce yourselves 21 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,899 HOST: and tell us a bit about the Panel and its roles and 22 00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:12,279 HOST: responsibilities? 23 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:13,989 JENNY COLES: Hello, I'm Jenny Coles. 24 00:01:13,990 --> 00:01:16,569 JENNY COLES: I'm a member of the Child Practice Review 25 00:01:16,570 --> 00:01:19,929 JENNY COLES: Panel, I've been on the Panel since 2022, and 26 00:01:19,930 --> 00:01:21,849 JENNY COLES: my background is local authority children's 27 00:01:21,850 --> 00:01:22,779 JENNY COLES: services. 28 00:01:22,780 --> 00:01:25,089 ANNIE HUDSON: Hello, I'm Annie Hudson and I'm chair of the 29 00:01:25,090 --> 00:01:27,819 ANNIE HUDSON: Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel. 30 00:01:27,820 --> 00:01:30,489 ANNIE HUDSON: My background is also in children's services 31 00:01:30,490 --> 00:01:33,939 ANNIE HUDSON: like Jenny. I started life as a social worker 32 00:01:33,940 --> 00:01:36,759 ANNIE HUDSON: and then ultimately, like Jenny, was a 33 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,559 ANNIE HUDSON: director of Children's Services. 34 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,049 ANNIE HUDSON: The Panel was established through the 35 00:01:41,050 --> 00:01:44,019 ANNIE HUDSON: Children and Social Work Act in 2017, 36 00:01:44,020 --> 00:01:45,633 ANNIE HUDSON: and had its first meeting, I think, in 2018. 37 00:01:45,634 --> 00:01:48,609 ANNIE HUDSON: Essentially, it was part of 38 00:01:48,610 --> 00:01:51,519 ANNIE HUDSON: the new architecture around multi-agency 39 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,729 ANNIE HUDSON: working in England to protect and 40 00:01:54,730 --> 00:01:58,149 ANNIE HUDSON: safeguard children and it has three core 41 00:01:58,150 --> 00:02:01,169 ANNIE HUDSON: roles, really. Firstly, it provides oversight 42 00:02:01,170 --> 00:02:04,199 ANNIE HUDSON: of the system of local reviews that 43 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,929 ANNIE HUDSON: take place at a local level by local 44 00:02:06,930 --> 00:02:09,029 ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding partners in response to serious 45 00:02:09,030 --> 00:02:12,539 ANNIE HUDSON: incidents where children have been harmed or 46 00:02:12,540 --> 00:02:15,299 ANNIE HUDSON: indeed died as a result of abuse and neglect. 47 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:17,969 ANNIE HUDSON: So that means we see all the rapid reviews 48 00:02:17,970 --> 00:02:19,769 ANNIE HUDSON: and all the local safeguarding practice 49 00:02:19,770 --> 00:02:21,539 ANNIE HUDSON: reviews that are undertaken by local 50 00:02:21,540 --> 00:02:23,249 ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding partners. 51 00:02:23,250 --> 00:02:26,879 ANNIE HUDSON: Secondly, we provide a system 52 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,879 ANNIE HUDSON: learning role, which, by looking at 53 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,757 ANNIE HUDSON: all of those reviews — and through some of 54 00:02:31,758 --> 00:02:34,019 ANNIE HUDSON: the thematic reviews, including the one that 55 00:02:34,020 --> 00:02:36,059 ANNIE HUDSON: we're going to be talking about, about child 56 00:02:36,060 --> 00:02:37,404 ANNIE HUDSON: sexual abuse in the family environment — 57 00:02:37,405 --> 00:02:40,949 ANNIE HUDSON: looks at some of the patterns in practice 58 00:02:40,950 --> 00:02:43,649 ANNIE HUDSON: that have emerged from those reviews, with a 59 00:02:43,650 --> 00:02:46,019 ANNIE HUDSON: view of identifying where improvements may 60 00:02:46,020 --> 00:02:48,449 ANNIE HUDSON: need to be made, either at a local, regional 61 00:02:48,450 --> 00:02:51,089 ANNIE HUDSON: or national level, and also where there may 62 00:02:51,090 --> 00:02:53,939 ANNIE HUDSON: need to be changes in policy to better 63 00:02:53,940 --> 00:02:56,699 ANNIE HUDSON: support high quality child protection and 64 00:02:56,700 --> 00:02:58,169 ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding work. 65 00:02:58,170 --> 00:03:00,909 ANNIE HUDSON: And then thirdly, the Panel has a system 66 00:03:00,910 --> 00:03:02,859 ANNIE HUDSON: leadership role working with many others, 67 00:03:02,860 --> 00:03:05,289 ANNIE HUDSON: including safeguarding partners and national 68 00:03:05,290 --> 00:03:08,379 ANNIE HUDSON: organisations — including the NSPCC — to work 69 00:03:08,380 --> 00:03:11,499 ANNIE HUDSON: together to identify what's working well 70 00:03:11,500 --> 00:03:14,259 ANNIE HUDSON: in the system of safeguarding children and 71 00:03:14,260 --> 00:03:16,839 ANNIE HUDSON: also where there needs to be improvement. 72 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,633 ANNIE HUDSON: So in a sense, we're a... 73 00:03:18,634 --> 00:03:21,489 ANNIE HUDSON: I mean, we provide a bit of a weather vane 74 00:03:21,490 --> 00:03:23,769 ANNIE HUDSON: through the lens — and it is a very specific 75 00:03:23,770 --> 00:03:25,689 ANNIE HUDSON: lens — of where things have gone wrong for 76 00:03:25,690 --> 00:03:28,719 ANNIE HUDSON: children about how well the system 77 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,939 ANNIE HUDSON: that we have in place is working for children 78 00:03:30,940 --> 00:03:32,499 ANNIE HUDSON: and their families. 79 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:35,559 HOST: Thank you. And you mentioned there that you work with 80 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,869 HOST: the local safeguarding partnerships in England. 81 00:03:37,870 --> 00:03:40,029 HOST: Could you expand a little bit more about how you do 82 00:03:40,030 --> 00:03:40,629 HOST: that? 83 00:03:40,630 --> 00:03:41,919 ANNIE HUDSON: We do that in a number of ways. 84 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,369 ANNIE HUDSON: So first and foremost, 85 00:03:45,370 --> 00:03:47,919 ANNIE HUDSON: we receive and comment, provide them with 86 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,709 ANNIE HUDSON: feedback, on all of the rapid reviews and all 87 00:03:50,710 --> 00:03:54,609 ANNIE HUDSON: of the LCSPRs that they undertake every year. 88 00:03:54,610 --> 00:03:58,069 ANNIE HUDSON: So in the 2023-24 year, it was about 89 00:03:58,070 --> 00:04:01,129 ANNIE HUDSON: 340 serious 90 00:04:01,130 --> 00:04:04,369 ANNIE HUDSON: incidents which generated reviews. 91 00:04:04,370 --> 00:04:06,499 ANNIE HUDSON: And we look at those reviews and then we 92 00:04:06,500 --> 00:04:09,199 ANNIE HUDSON: provide feedback on those reviews to both 93 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,139 ANNIE HUDSON: assist their local learning, but also to 94 00:04:12,140 --> 00:04:15,289 ANNIE HUDSON: assist in their improvements in practice. 95 00:04:16,310 --> 00:04:19,338 ANNIE HUDSON: We use those reviews to undertake thematic 96 00:04:19,339 --> 00:04:22,339 ANNIE HUDSON: reviews. We did the one on sexual 97 00:04:22,340 --> 00:04:25,549 ANNIE HUDSON: abuse. We will be producing, very shortly, 98 00:04:25,550 --> 00:04:28,969 ANNIE HUDSON: a thematic analysis about, firstly, race 99 00:04:28,970 --> 00:04:31,039 ANNIE HUDSON: and racial bias and racism in child 100 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,079 ANNIE HUDSON: protection, and also one on neglect. 101 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,139 ANNIE HUDSON: So we pick topics or themes and use 102 00:04:36,140 --> 00:04:39,589 ANNIE HUDSON: that local material from safeguarding 103 00:04:39,590 --> 00:04:42,769 ANNIE HUDSON: partners. And in all stages we look 104 00:04:42,770 --> 00:04:45,259 ANNIE HUDSON: to involve... not always all safeguarding 105 00:04:45,260 --> 00:04:47,269 ANNIE HUDSON: partners, but, you know, selected 106 00:04:47,270 --> 00:04:49,759 ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding partners to really help build up 107 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,129 ANNIE HUDSON: national knowledge and intelligence about 108 00:04:52,130 --> 00:04:53,869 ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding practice. 109 00:04:53,870 --> 00:04:56,209 HOST: So with all of this learning that you're gathering, 110 00:04:56,210 --> 00:04:59,039 HOST: how does the Panel share that more widely with the 111 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,869 HOST: local and the national reviews? How do you share that 112 00:05:01,870 --> 00:05:04,498 HOST: and what are some of those common themes? 113 00:05:04,499 --> 00:05:06,599 ANNIE HUDSON: We do that through reports, but we also do 114 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,299 ANNIE HUDSON: that through newsletters, we do that through 115 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:10,709 ANNIE HUDSON: webinars. 116 00:05:10,710 --> 00:05:13,229 ANNIE HUDSON: So for example, again with the sexual abuse 117 00:05:13,230 --> 00:05:15,659 ANNIE HUDSON: national review, we had two really 118 00:05:15,660 --> 00:05:17,549 ANNIE HUDSON: well-attended webinars — I think they both 119 00:05:17,550 --> 00:05:19,589 ANNIE HUDSON: had more than 200 people coming along for 120 00:05:19,590 --> 00:05:22,889 ANNIE HUDSON: each one — as a way of not just disseminating 121 00:05:22,890 --> 00:05:25,859 ANNIE HUDSON: the evidence from those reviews, but also 122 00:05:25,860 --> 00:05:28,919 ANNIE HUDSON: to engage people in discussion, active 123 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,549 ANNIE HUDSON: discussion about some of the issues which 124 00:05:32,550 --> 00:05:35,579 ANNIE HUDSON: are often very complex in nature, 125 00:05:35,580 --> 00:05:38,039 ANNIE HUDSON: and therefore there aren't simple solutions 126 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:39,629 ANNIE HUDSON: to resolving some of those problems. 127 00:05:39,630 --> 00:05:41,099 ANNIE HUDSON: But Jenny, perhaps you want to add to that? 128 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:44,039 JENNY COLES: Yeah. And I think we're learning in terms of 129 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,769 JENNY COLES: how we're doing webinars and the latest ones 130 00:05:46,770 --> 00:05:49,109 JENNY COLES: on our latest review of child sexual abuse in 131 00:05:49,110 --> 00:05:51,839 JENNY COLES: the family, as Annie said, had a lot of 132 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:54,239 JENNY COLES: participants. It was only an hour, but we got 133 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,669 JENNY COLES: a lot of information over in discussion and we 134 00:05:56,670 --> 00:05:58,759 JENNY COLES: welcomed the feedback because then that adds 135 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,759 JENNY COLES: to our learning. But we also are linked 136 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,791 JENNY COLES: into regions — each Panel member has a region 137 00:06:03,792 --> 00:06:06,024 JENNY COLES: — and we do attend regional conferences, talk 138 00:06:07,550 --> 00:06:10,489 JENNY COLES: about the Panel, but also listen to what 139 00:06:10,490 --> 00:06:12,319 JENNY COLES: people are doing on the ground and what 140 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,109 JENNY COLES: they're learning, and what they think would be 141 00:06:15,110 --> 00:06:17,299 JENNY COLES: a broader set of learning, whether it's at 142 00:06:17,300 --> 00:06:19,819 JENNY COLES: their regional level or the national level as 143 00:06:19,820 --> 00:06:20,789 JENNY COLES: well. 144 00:06:20,790 --> 00:06:23,359 ANNIE HUDSON: And one other thing to add is that— one of 145 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:24,919 ANNIE HUDSON: the things we're doing at the moment is that 146 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,469 ANNIE HUDSON: we have commissioned from an independent 147 00:06:27,470 --> 00:06:30,169 ANNIE HUDSON: organisation an evaluation of the impact of 148 00:06:30,170 --> 00:06:32,599 ANNIE HUDSON: the Panel's work. We are also in a continuous 149 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,839 ANNIE HUDSON: learning cycle and we want to 150 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:38,689 ANNIE HUDSON: get that feedback in evidence about which of 151 00:06:38,690 --> 00:06:41,809 ANNIE HUDSON: the things we do have most or least impact, 152 00:06:41,810 --> 00:06:44,089 ANNIE HUDSON: because we need to go on changing our 153 00:06:44,090 --> 00:06:46,849 ANNIE HUDSON: practice and the ways in which we engage with 154 00:06:46,850 --> 00:06:49,699 ANNIE HUDSON: the 140-50 safeguarding partners around the 155 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:50,299 ANNIE HUDSON: country. 156 00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:52,609 HOST: Yeah. And how are the local safeguarding 157 00:06:52,610 --> 00:06:54,829 HOST: partnerships— what are they doing locally themselves? 158 00:06:54,830 --> 00:06:57,229 HOST: What are they gathering and taking from the national 159 00:06:57,230 --> 00:06:59,129 HOST: Panel and what are they getting and gathering from 160 00:06:59,130 --> 00:07:01,019 HOST: elsewhere? And that will be a really interesting 161 00:07:01,020 --> 00:07:03,359 HOST: piece of work to see what people are saying about 162 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:03,719 HOST: that. 163 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,929 ANNIE HUDSON: Yeah. And I think some of the themes 164 00:07:06,930 --> 00:07:10,109 ANNIE HUDSON: that we've identified and we've majored 165 00:07:10,110 --> 00:07:12,419 ANNIE HUDSON: on, either in annual reports or in national 166 00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:14,489 ANNIE HUDSON: reviews, have come absolutely from the 167 00:07:14,490 --> 00:07:17,099 ANNIE HUDSON: evidence and the conversations with 168 00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:19,019 ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding partners. 169 00:07:19,020 --> 00:07:21,449 ANNIE HUDSON: For example, in the annual report this year, 170 00:07:21,450 --> 00:07:24,269 ANNIE HUDSON: one of the three spotlighted themes was 171 00:07:24,270 --> 00:07:26,879 ANNIE HUDSON: around mental health and mental health of 172 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,469 ANNIE HUDSON: children and young people. 173 00:07:28,470 --> 00:07:31,469 ANNIE HUDSON: And that has been a very, very consistent 174 00:07:31,470 --> 00:07:34,409 ANNIE HUDSON: theme, hasn't it Jenny, from many reviews, 175 00:07:34,410 --> 00:07:36,929 ANNIE HUDSON: where children, for example, have taken their 176 00:07:36,930 --> 00:07:38,999 ANNIE HUDSON: own lives or where they've been involved 177 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,939 ANNIE HUDSON: either in harm in their own home environment 178 00:07:41,940 --> 00:07:45,149 ANNIE HUDSON: or externally. And a lot of the messaging 179 00:07:45,150 --> 00:07:47,039 ANNIE HUDSON: back from safeguarding partners has been 180 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,519 ANNIE HUDSON: about the adequacy or otherwise of 181 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,679 ANNIE HUDSON: mental health services, the links between 182 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,149 ANNIE HUDSON: mental health services and children's 183 00:07:54,150 --> 00:07:57,309 ANNIE HUDSON: services and so on. So, we try and pick 184 00:07:57,310 --> 00:08:00,069 ANNIE HUDSON: up and then get some more indepth evidence 185 00:08:00,070 --> 00:08:02,649 ANNIE HUDSON: around themes that also local areas are 186 00:08:02,650 --> 00:08:03,879 ANNIE HUDSON: highlighting. 187 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:05,739 JENNY COLES: And I think to add to that, in the annual 188 00:08:05,740 --> 00:08:07,269 JENNY COLES: review: looking at the mental health of 189 00:08:07,270 --> 00:08:10,359 JENNY COLES: parents and how agencies who 190 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,659 JENNY COLES: predominantly might work with adults, how 191 00:08:13,660 --> 00:08:16,839 JENNY COLES: it's really important they see that individual 192 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,019 JENNY COLES: as a parent as well and take a holistic and 193 00:08:20,020 --> 00:08:22,209 JENNY COLES: family approach. This has been a fairly 194 00:08:22,210 --> 00:08:25,239 JENNY COLES: constant theme in reviews where mental 195 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,399 JENNY COLES: health in parents has been present. 196 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:28,899 HOST: And I know we're going to talk about the annual 197 00:08:28,900 --> 00:08:31,899 HOST: report a little bit later on, but the other 198 00:08:31,900 --> 00:08:34,538 HOST: big report we published last year was your national 199 00:08:34,539 --> 00:08:36,759 HOST: review into child sex abuse within the family 200 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:38,048 HOST: environment. 201 00:08:38,049 --> 00:08:40,509 HOST: This report explores what is needed to enable 202 00:08:40,510 --> 00:08:43,479 HOST: practitioners to identify and respond to concerns of 203 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,939 HOST: child sexual abuse, putting the needs of children 204 00:08:45,940 --> 00:08:49,059 HOST: first. How did you decide within that review 205 00:08:49,060 --> 00:08:50,889 HOST: what areas to focus on? 206 00:08:50,890 --> 00:08:53,019 JENNY COLES: Well, first of all, we decided to do the 207 00:08:53,020 --> 00:08:56,019 JENNY COLES: review because that had been a theme 208 00:08:56,020 --> 00:08:59,179 JENNY COLES: which has grown in evidence over the last 18 209 00:08:59,180 --> 00:09:00,949 JENNY COLES: months to two years. 210 00:09:00,950 --> 00:09:03,559 JENNY COLES: And at the point where we did it, we had a 211 00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:06,019 JENNY COLES: really rich evidence body. 212 00:09:06,020 --> 00:09:09,469 JENNY COLES: In fact, we looked at the experience of 193 213 00:09:09,470 --> 00:09:11,037 JENNY COLES: children with the Centre of expertise [on 214 00:09:11,038 --> 00:09:13,969 JENNY COLES: child sexual abuse] doing that fieldwork and 215 00:09:13,970 --> 00:09:16,069 JENNY COLES: writing that report. 216 00:09:16,070 --> 00:09:19,099 JENNY COLES: We felt that perhaps what had happened 217 00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:21,649 JENNY COLES: over the years, with absolutely the right 218 00:09:21,650 --> 00:09:25,339 JENNY COLES: focus on child sexual exploitation outside 219 00:09:25,340 --> 00:09:27,829 JENNY COLES: of the family and criminal exploitation, but 220 00:09:27,830 --> 00:09:30,949 JENNY COLES: that had perhaps been done at the expense 221 00:09:30,950 --> 00:09:34,129 JENNY COLES: of not progressing practice and supporting 222 00:09:34,130 --> 00:09:36,499 JENNY COLES: and safeguarding children who'd been sexually 223 00:09:36,500 --> 00:09:38,179 JENNY COLES: abused within their families. 224 00:09:38,180 --> 00:09:40,129 JENNY COLES: And we tested that out with safeguarding 225 00:09:40,130 --> 00:09:42,259 JENNY COLES: partners and they said, yeah, that's an area 226 00:09:42,260 --> 00:09:44,509 JENNY COLES: that increasingly they were finding 227 00:09:44,510 --> 00:09:48,199 JENNY COLES: challenging. So, for those reasons, we 228 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,049 JENNY COLES: decided to make this a national review. 229 00:09:51,050 --> 00:09:53,779 HOST: And I know when you published the review, you called 230 00:09:53,780 --> 00:09:56,049 HOST: it 'I wanted them to notice'. 231 00:09:56,050 --> 00:09:57,489 HOST: Why did you call it that? 232 00:09:57,490 --> 00:09:59,829 JENNY COLES: So we interviewed two young people for this 233 00:09:59,830 --> 00:10:02,949 JENNY COLES: review, and "I wanted them to notice" was 234 00:10:02,950 --> 00:10:05,529 JENNY COLES: a quote from one of those young people, and we 235 00:10:05,530 --> 00:10:08,439 JENNY COLES: thought it really powerfully summed up what 236 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,689 JENNY COLES: the review was about. The key finding of the 237 00:10:10,690 --> 00:10:13,839 JENNY COLES: review was that practitioners found 238 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,299 JENNY COLES: great difficulty in talking directly with 239 00:10:16,300 --> 00:10:18,699 JENNY COLES: children around child sexual abuse. 240 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:21,759 JENNY COLES: And often the feedback was that when they 241 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,529 JENNY COLES: were in the child protection system and maybe 242 00:10:23,530 --> 00:10:26,649 JENNY COLES: on a child protection plan, the whole focus 243 00:10:26,650 --> 00:10:29,679 JENNY COLES: on evidence and verbal disclosure meant that 244 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:32,499 JENNY COLES: they were often put on a plan for a broader 245 00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:34,269 JENNY COLES: category, like neglect. 246 00:10:34,270 --> 00:10:36,549 JENNY COLES: So that was a key finding of the review and, 247 00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:39,669 JENNY COLES: in fact, linked in to the national and local 248 00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:42,369 JENNY COLES: recommendations for safeguarding partnerships 249 00:10:42,370 --> 00:10:45,639 JENNY COLES: about training for practitioners across 250 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,129 JENNY COLES: the system, in terms of talking to children, 251 00:10:48,130 --> 00:10:50,409 JENNY COLES: having the confidence and the skills to do 252 00:10:50,410 --> 00:10:51,279 JENNY COLES: that. 253 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,589 HOST: Yeah, it is difficult. 254 00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:55,639 HOST: Practitioners working with children feel that they're 255 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,849 HOST: not allowed to ask somehow, don't they? 256 00:10:58,850 --> 00:11:00,649 HOST: And yet what we're hearing from the young people is 257 00:11:00,650 --> 00:11:02,359 HOST: they do want to be asked. 258 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,839 JENNY COLES: Absolutely. And again, another key 259 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,019 JENNY COLES: and helpful finding of the review was looking 260 00:11:09,020 --> 00:11:10,999 JENNY COLES: at the interface of the child protection 261 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,519 JENNY COLES: system and the criminal justice system. 262 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,549 JENNY COLES: And what appears to have happened over really 263 00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:19,429 JENNY COLES: probably, Annie, we'd say the last 20 years or 264 00:11:19,430 --> 00:11:22,279 JENNY COLES: more, that the criminal justice system and the 265 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,909 JENNY COLES: focus on evidence for that has actually 266 00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:28,159 JENNY COLES: prevented practice developing. 267 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,379 JENNY COLES: That's a quite a strong phrase, but it was 268 00:11:30,380 --> 00:11:33,349 JENNY COLES: very clear what came out of this review, and 269 00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:36,203 JENNY COLES: that actually the child protection system, the 270 00:11:36,204 --> 00:11:38,359 JENNY COLES: safeguarding system, operates on the balance 271 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,389 JENNY COLES: of probabilities and not the 272 00:11:41,390 --> 00:11:43,459 JENNY COLES: threshold for criminal evidence. 273 00:11:43,460 --> 00:11:46,489 JENNY COLES: What we're saying here is we need 274 00:11:46,490 --> 00:11:49,459 JENNY COLES: a step change in how children 275 00:11:49,460 --> 00:11:52,579 JENNY COLES: are supported and families are supported 276 00:11:52,580 --> 00:11:55,019 JENNY COLES: where child sexual abuse has happened within 277 00:11:55,020 --> 00:11:56,039 JENNY COLES: the family. 278 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,979 HOST: One of the things I noticed when I read the report is 279 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:01,859 HOST: that when cases were referred to the police and they 280 00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:04,079 HOST: decided that they were going to take no further 281 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,109 HOST: action, then social workers 282 00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:09,299 HOST: or other practitioners working with the families 283 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:11,429 HOST: believed that that meant that the sexual abuse hadn't 284 00:12:11,430 --> 00:12:14,249 HOST: happened because the police hadn't taken action. 285 00:12:14,250 --> 00:12:16,229 JENNY COLES: And the feedback we had that people felt they 286 00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:18,359 JENNY COLES: couldn't take this any further; that they were 287 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,209 JENNY COLES: worried about talking directly to children in 288 00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:24,269 JENNY COLES: case that prevented 289 00:12:24,270 --> 00:12:27,119 JENNY COLES: further investigations, when in fact the 290 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,789 JENNY COLES: police, when they stop an investigation, if 291 00:12:29,790 --> 00:12:31,829 JENNY COLES: they don't feel there's enough evidence, it's 292 00:12:31,830 --> 00:12:33,989 JENNY COLES: for now. It doesn't mean to say that can't be 293 00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:37,319 JENNY COLES: reopened, and it doesn't mean to say 294 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,139 JENNY COLES: that professionals shouldn't carry on working 295 00:12:40,140 --> 00:12:43,169 JENNY COLES: and supporting families and talking about the 296 00:12:43,170 --> 00:12:46,529 JENNY COLES: abuse to ensure that children's needs are met. 297 00:12:46,530 --> 00:12:49,499 ANNIE HUDSON: One other facet of the review, which I 298 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:52,529 ANNIE HUDSON: think is really powerful and evidences that 299 00:12:52,530 --> 00:12:54,294 ANNIE HUDSON: point that Jenny's just made, is that we 300 00:12:54,295 --> 00:12:57,549 ANNIE HUDSON: still operate as a system 301 00:12:57,550 --> 00:13:00,189 ANNIE HUDSON: in a very fragmented, siloed way. 302 00:13:00,190 --> 00:13:02,589 ANNIE HUDSON: That was the finding, which I think many of 303 00:13:02,590 --> 00:13:04,389 ANNIE HUDSON: us were quite shocked by, which was that of 304 00:13:04,390 --> 00:13:07,959 ANNIE HUDSON: those 193 children that Jenny just described, 305 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,929 ANNIE HUDSON: in a third of the cases, the instances, 306 00:13:10,930 --> 00:13:13,299 ANNIE HUDSON: family members were known to have sexually 307 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:15,609 ANNIE HUDSON: abused a child in the past, or to present a 308 00:13:15,610 --> 00:13:17,649 ANNIE HUDSON: risk either because they've been convicted or 309 00:13:17,650 --> 00:13:19,659 ANNIE HUDSON: they've been the subject of an allegation 310 00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:20,660 ANNIE HUDSON: previously. 311 00:13:23,230 --> 00:13:26,349 ANNIE HUDSON: When you unravel that, what it highlighted 312 00:13:26,350 --> 00:13:29,229 ANNIE HUDSON: was how information about people who could 313 00:13:29,230 --> 00:13:31,329 ANNIE HUDSON: pose a risk — and these were predominantly 314 00:13:31,330 --> 00:13:35,109 ANNIE HUDSON: men — possibly historically, 315 00:13:35,110 --> 00:13:36,939 ANNIE HUDSON: possibly in another part of the country with 316 00:13:36,940 --> 00:13:40,059 ANNIE HUDSON: another family, that information was not 317 00:13:40,060 --> 00:13:41,772 ANNIE HUDSON: made available to the children's services, 318 00:13:41,773 --> 00:13:44,979 ANNIE HUDSON: people who are working with children in the 319 00:13:44,980 --> 00:13:47,859 ANNIE HUDSON: contemporaneous context. 320 00:13:47,860 --> 00:13:50,289 ANNIE HUDSON: So there's something about how we share 321 00:13:50,290 --> 00:13:52,749 ANNIE HUDSON: information about people who can pose a 322 00:13:52,750 --> 00:13:55,709 ANNIE HUDSON: severe risk to children, but also how we 323 00:13:55,710 --> 00:13:58,199 ANNIE HUDSON: need to be thinking outside the box sometimes 324 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,499 ANNIE HUDSON: about the risks. So, for example, somebody 325 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:04,559 ANNIE HUDSON: who may have been the focus of 326 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,049 ANNIE HUDSON: a police inquiry about indecent images of 327 00:14:07,050 --> 00:14:08,459 ANNIE HUDSON: children. 328 00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:10,589 ANNIE HUDSON: There was sometimes an assumption that that 329 00:14:10,590 --> 00:14:12,419 ANNIE HUDSON: meant that they would not pose a risk to 330 00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:15,329 ANNIE HUDSON: their own children, which in many instances, 331 00:14:15,330 --> 00:14:17,939 ANNIE HUDSON: some instances, absolutely not; was a very 332 00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:19,679 ANNIE HUDSON: incorrect assumption. 333 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,409 ANNIE HUDSON: So we really do need to bring all the 334 00:14:22,410 --> 00:14:25,469 ANNIE HUDSON: agencies together who have expertise in 335 00:14:25,470 --> 00:14:27,449 ANNIE HUDSON: this area, including criminal justice 336 00:14:27,450 --> 00:14:29,909 ANNIE HUDSON: agencies, including probation, working 337 00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:32,399 ANNIE HUDSON: together so that they get that joined up 338 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,729 ANNIE HUDSON: picture of risk of harm to children, that's 339 00:14:35,730 --> 00:14:38,339 ANNIE HUDSON: not just about the current situation, but 340 00:14:38,340 --> 00:14:41,219 ANNIE HUDSON: maybe about the historical information about 341 00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:42,929 ANNIE HUDSON: key family members. 342 00:14:42,930 --> 00:14:44,699 JENNY COLES: And although we've made national 343 00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:47,459 JENNY COLES: recommendations, we're really clear that 344 00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:50,969 JENNY COLES: safeguarding partnerships can get on and 345 00:14:50,970 --> 00:14:53,463 JENNY COLES: we hope that the recommendations we've made 346 00:14:53,464 --> 00:14:56,469 JENNY COLES: are helpful and the report's helpful for them 347 00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:59,742 JENNY COLES: to have an action plan — for a better word — 348 00:14:59,743 --> 00:15:01,779 JENNY COLES: about what to do next and improve their 349 00:15:01,780 --> 00:15:04,119 JENNY COLES: practice. And, you know, this is all based on 350 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,479 JENNY COLES: the evidence that safeguarding partners 351 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,329 JENNY COLES: have put into their local practice reviews. 352 00:15:10,330 --> 00:15:13,209 JENNY COLES: So it is based on real practice that's 353 00:15:13,210 --> 00:15:14,499 JENNY COLES: happening currently. 354 00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:15,879 JENNY COLES: We hope this is helpful. 355 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,829 JENNY COLES: We've had a lot of people on the webinars. 356 00:15:17,830 --> 00:15:20,259 JENNY COLES: It is an area that people have wanted us to 357 00:15:20,260 --> 00:15:21,549 JENNY COLES: concentrate on. 358 00:15:21,550 --> 00:15:24,669 JENNY COLES: So we look forward to seeing how 359 00:15:24,670 --> 00:15:26,619 JENNY COLES: practice has developed and we're just thinking 360 00:15:26,620 --> 00:15:28,899 JENNY COLES: about how we can support that, but also 361 00:15:28,900 --> 00:15:31,539 JENNY COLES: monitor it to make sure that with all the hard 362 00:15:31,540 --> 00:15:35,199 JENNY COLES: work and the responses of many practitioners 363 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,299 JENNY COLES: and children and young people, that they can 364 00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:39,339 JENNY COLES: see an improvement in how children are 365 00:15:39,340 --> 00:15:40,659 JENNY COLES: supported. 366 00:15:40,660 --> 00:15:43,089 HOST: You talked a little bit— well, you mentioned the 367 00:15:43,090 --> 00:15:45,219 HOST: recommendations for government and recommendations 368 00:15:45,220 --> 00:15:46,959 HOST: for safeguarding partners as well. 369 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:48,759 HOST: Would you like to expand on that a little bit? 370 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,149 JENNY COLES: I mean, in terms of national recommendations, 371 00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:55,519 JENNY COLES: we're asking that there should be a national 372 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,129 JENNY COLES: strategic plan around child sexual abuse — 373 00:15:58,130 --> 00:16:01,579 JENNY COLES: there is a child sexual abuse strategy, 374 00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:04,649 JENNY COLES: but that's quite dated now probably — and 375 00:16:04,650 --> 00:16:06,859 JENNY COLES: that that plan takes in some of these key 376 00:16:06,860 --> 00:16:08,089 JENNY COLES: findings we're talking about. 377 00:16:09,890 --> 00:16:13,249 JENNY COLES: Nationally, working with professional bodies, 378 00:16:13,250 --> 00:16:17,389 JENNY COLES: we see a change in how practitioners 379 00:16:17,390 --> 00:16:19,759 JENNY COLES: are trained and get the necessary skills and 380 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,729 JENNY COLES: guidance and a multi-agency training, but from 381 00:16:22,730 --> 00:16:25,009 JENNY COLES: the beginning of their professional careers, 382 00:16:25,010 --> 00:16:27,439 JENNY COLES: and not seeing this as a specialism; because 383 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,619 JENNY COLES: the feedback from families, and from the 384 00:16:30,620 --> 00:16:33,199 JENNY COLES: experts by experience that were consulted as 385 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,629 JENNY COLES: part of this review, is early intervention 386 00:16:35,630 --> 00:16:39,469 JENNY COLES: here can make such a difference in terms of 387 00:16:39,470 --> 00:16:41,659 JENNY COLES: lessening future vulnerability. 388 00:16:41,660 --> 00:16:44,479 JENNY COLES: We also had some national recommendations for 389 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,359 JENNY COLES: the family court justice system and Cafcass to 390 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,579 JENNY COLES: consider what's in this report. 391 00:16:49,580 --> 00:16:52,569 JENNY COLES: They were met as stakeholders, in terms of 392 00:16:52,570 --> 00:16:55,449 JENNY COLES: formulating these recommendations, and we 393 00:16:55,450 --> 00:16:58,299 JENNY COLES: really hope that that will be taken on board, 394 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:00,939 JENNY COLES: particularly within the court arena, and we 395 00:17:00,940 --> 00:17:03,699 JENNY COLES: hope this will be helpful. And particularly 396 00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:06,219 JENNY COLES: regarding the really important thing around 397 00:17:06,220 --> 00:17:09,249 JENNY COLES: health support and meeting health needs of 398 00:17:09,250 --> 00:17:10,899 JENNY COLES: children that have been sexually abused. 399 00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:13,149 JENNY COLES: So there's very clear pathways and that 400 00:17:13,150 --> 00:17:16,299 JENNY COLES: commissioners are clear that services they 401 00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:19,659 JENNY COLES: commission within the NHS and providers 402 00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:22,419 JENNY COLES: can meet, and people are skilled to meet, the 403 00:17:22,420 --> 00:17:23,769 JENNY COLES: needs of children. 404 00:17:23,770 --> 00:17:27,249 HOST: So that was a huge piece of work doing 405 00:17:27,250 --> 00:17:30,159 HOST: that report into child sexual abuse within the family 406 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,889 HOST: environment and you've talked about all the different 407 00:17:32,890 --> 00:17:35,441 HOST: ways that you've engaged there with stakeholders and 408 00:17:35,442 --> 00:17:37,089 HOST: are feeding stuff back out. 409 00:17:37,090 --> 00:17:39,789 HOST: I wonder if we can move on now to the annual report, 410 00:17:39,790 --> 00:17:43,509 HOST: which was published in December 2024. 411 00:17:43,510 --> 00:17:46,899 HOST: So that looks at safeguarding incidents across 412 00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:49,419 HOST: and over the last year. 413 00:17:49,420 --> 00:17:52,009 HOST: What are those key themes that were coming through 414 00:17:52,010 --> 00:17:53,010 HOST: last year? 415 00:17:53,780 --> 00:17:57,319 ANNIE HUDSON: Yes, this was looking at about 330 416 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,989 ANNIE HUDSON: serious incidents, which actually generated 417 00:17:59,990 --> 00:18:02,689 ANNIE HUDSON: more than that number of reviews. 418 00:18:02,690 --> 00:18:05,269 ANNIE HUDSON: One of the first things to note is that that 419 00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:07,459 ANNIE HUDSON: represented and reflected a reduction of 420 00:18:07,460 --> 00:18:10,939 ANNIE HUDSON: about 18% on the number of serious incidents 421 00:18:10,940 --> 00:18:13,159 ANNIE HUDSON: notified to the previous year. 422 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,159 ANNIE HUDSON: We don't quite understand what that's about, 423 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,679 ANNIE HUDSON: and further work is being undertaken to 424 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:19,969 ANNIE HUDSON: interrogate that, because we need to 425 00:18:19,970 --> 00:18:23,179 ANNIE HUDSON: understand whether that's because things 426 00:18:23,180 --> 00:18:24,859 ANNIE HUDSON: are not being notified when they need to be, 427 00:18:24,860 --> 00:18:26,569 ANNIE HUDSON: or whether it's actually that there has been 428 00:18:26,570 --> 00:18:29,809 ANNIE HUDSON: a diminuation in certain types of abuse 429 00:18:29,810 --> 00:18:31,279 ANNIE HUDSON: and harm for children. 430 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,229 ANNIE HUDSON: Just in terms of top lines, I suppose the 431 00:18:33,230 --> 00:18:36,889 ANNIE HUDSON: first thing to be aware of is that 432 00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:40,159 ANNIE HUDSON: babies under one remain the most vulnerable 433 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,249 ANNIE HUDSON: group for all sorts of understandable and 434 00:18:43,250 --> 00:18:45,079 ANNIE HUDSON: to be expected reasons. 435 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,449 ANNIE HUDSON: The other age, which is, if you like, most 436 00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:49,609 ANNIE HUDSON: dangerous in terms of prevalence and 437 00:18:49,610 --> 00:18:51,670 ANNIE HUDSON: propensity is 16- to 17-year-olds. 438 00:18:51,671 --> 00:18:54,689 ANNIE HUDSON: Those children, it is much more in terms 439 00:18:54,690 --> 00:18:56,189 ANNIE HUDSON: of extrafamilial harm. 440 00:18:56,190 --> 00:18:58,469 ANNIE HUDSON: With babies, obviously it's much more likely 441 00:18:58,470 --> 00:19:01,349 ANNIE HUDSON: to be particular physical abuse or neglect 442 00:19:01,350 --> 00:19:02,819 ANNIE HUDSON: within the family. 443 00:19:02,820 --> 00:19:04,769 ANNIE HUDSON: There is a continuation of some of the 444 00:19:04,770 --> 00:19:07,019 ANNIE HUDSON: patterns we've seen in the past in terms of 445 00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:08,849 ANNIE HUDSON: children, for example, who are out of 446 00:19:08,850 --> 00:19:11,729 ANNIE HUDSON: education. That is partly children who are in 447 00:19:11,730 --> 00:19:13,799 ANNIE HUDSON: elective home education and also children who 448 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,859 ANNIE HUDSON: are not on a school roll or are not in 449 00:19:16,860 --> 00:19:19,469 ANNIE HUDSON: mainstream education and missing a lot of 450 00:19:19,470 --> 00:19:22,409 ANNIE HUDSON: education, and that's been a major issue of 451 00:19:22,410 --> 00:19:24,089 ANNIE HUDSON: concern. 452 00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:27,029 ANNIE HUDSON: Earlier last year, we published a thematic 453 00:19:27,030 --> 00:19:30,029 ANNIE HUDSON: analysis of children who had been seriously 454 00:19:30,030 --> 00:19:32,189 ANNIE HUDSON: harmed or died and who were electively home 455 00:19:32,190 --> 00:19:34,019 ANNIE HUDSON: educated — not necessarily as a result, 456 00:19:34,020 --> 00:19:36,569 ANNIE HUDSON: because most children in EHE, of course, 457 00:19:36,570 --> 00:19:39,119 ANNIE HUDSON: thrive and are very happy and are safe. 458 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:41,729 ANNIE HUDSON: But there is a small group of children who 459 00:19:41,730 --> 00:19:44,999 ANNIE HUDSON: don't have that oversight of agencies 460 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,519 ANNIE HUDSON: in terms of their wellbeing and safety. 461 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,369 ANNIE HUDSON: So that education dimension is really 462 00:19:50,370 --> 00:19:53,169 ANNIE HUDSON: important and just reinforces the importance 463 00:19:53,170 --> 00:19:55,389 ANNIE HUDSON: of children being in school because of all 464 00:19:55,390 --> 00:19:57,849 ANNIE HUDSON: the benefits of school, but also because it 465 00:19:57,850 --> 00:20:00,399 ANNIE HUDSON: does mean if they are vulnerable and at risk, 466 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,029 ANNIE HUDSON: schools will have a much more daily ability 467 00:20:04,030 --> 00:20:05,829 ANNIE HUDSON: to take the temperature on how well those 468 00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:07,389 ANNIE HUDSON: children are and how safe they are. 469 00:20:07,390 --> 00:20:09,549 ANNIE HUDSON: We also look at things like whether children 470 00:20:09,550 --> 00:20:11,469 ANNIE HUDSON: are known to services, whether they're on a 471 00:20:11,470 --> 00:20:13,209 ANNIE HUDSON: child in need plan. 472 00:20:13,210 --> 00:20:16,269 ANNIE HUDSON: Quite a number, something like just over 40% 473 00:20:16,270 --> 00:20:18,309 ANNIE HUDSON: of children who are the focus of those 474 00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:21,099 ANNIE HUDSON: serious incidents, were known to have been a 475 00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:22,719 ANNIE HUDSON: child in need, either at the time of the 476 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,549 ANNIE HUDSON: incident or previously. 477 00:20:24,550 --> 00:20:26,919 ANNIE HUDSON: And again, that's not that surprising because 478 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,629 ANNIE HUDSON: these are the most vulnerable children. 479 00:20:28,630 --> 00:20:31,209 ANNIE HUDSON: So you would expect that they may well have 480 00:20:31,210 --> 00:20:33,369 ANNIE HUDSON: had contact with children's services, 481 00:20:33,370 --> 00:20:34,659 ANNIE HUDSON: children's social care. 482 00:20:34,660 --> 00:20:36,459 ANNIE HUDSON: A relatively small number were children 483 00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:39,279 ANNIE HUDSON: looked after and they had suffered harm or 484 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,289 ANNIE HUDSON: abuse either in placements — foster 485 00:20:41,290 --> 00:20:43,779 ANNIE HUDSON: placements — or were in residential 486 00:20:43,780 --> 00:20:45,939 ANNIE HUDSON: placements and then harmed outside the home. 487 00:20:45,940 --> 00:20:48,489 ANNIE HUDSON: So what you get through the annual report, I 488 00:20:48,490 --> 00:20:52,079 ANNIE HUDSON: suppose, is a picture of the complexity 489 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,749 ANNIE HUDSON: of needs, the complexity of age, and other 490 00:20:54,750 --> 00:20:57,779 ANNIE HUDSON: demographics. Something like 75% of 491 00:20:57,780 --> 00:21:00,103 ANNIE HUDSON: the children were from White backgrounds. 492 00:21:00,104 --> 00:21:03,059 ANNIE HUDSON: There's an underrepresentation 493 00:21:03,060 --> 00:21:05,279 ANNIE HUDSON: compared to the population of children from 494 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,069 ANNIE HUDSON: Asian backgrounds, and conversely, an 495 00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:10,589 ANNIE HUDSON: overrepresentation of children from Black 496 00:21:10,590 --> 00:21:13,709 ANNIE HUDSON: backgrounds, and it's partly that that has 497 00:21:13,710 --> 00:21:16,409 ANNIE HUDSON: been the driver behind a piece of work we're 498 00:21:16,410 --> 00:21:17,729 ANNIE HUDSON: doing at the moment, and which we will 499 00:21:17,730 --> 00:21:21,059 ANNIE HUDSON: publish shortly, about race, racial 500 00:21:21,060 --> 00:21:24,239 ANNIE HUDSON: bias, racism and ethnicity in rapid reviews 501 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:25,240 ANNIE HUDSON: and LCSPRs. 502 00:21:25,890 --> 00:21:27,959 ANNIE HUDSON: Because we need to understand better what is 503 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,239 ANNIE HUDSON: going on there in terms of under- and 504 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,789 ANNIE HUDSON: overrepresentation. But most importantly, how 505 00:21:32,790 --> 00:21:35,819 ANNIE HUDSON: does practice need to change and be 506 00:21:35,820 --> 00:21:37,409 ANNIE HUDSON: more responsive to the needs of those 507 00:21:37,410 --> 00:21:40,229 ANNIE HUDSON: children? So that's the picture of the 508 00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:41,759 ANNIE HUDSON: children. 509 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,549 ANNIE HUDSON: Then what we've done this year is to build on 510 00:21:44,550 --> 00:21:47,849 ANNIE HUDSON: previous analysis of some of the big practice 511 00:21:47,850 --> 00:21:50,619 ANNIE HUDSON: themes that we've seen over the years around, 512 00:21:50,620 --> 00:21:52,569 ANNIE HUDSON: you know, focusing on the voice and 513 00:21:52,570 --> 00:21:54,729 ANNIE HUDSON: experience of children, about bringing 514 00:21:54,730 --> 00:21:57,429 ANNIE HUDSON: critical analysis to assessment and so on, 515 00:21:57,430 --> 00:22:00,279 ANNIE HUDSON: and looked at three particular themes: 516 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,229 ANNIE HUDSON: parental mental health, children's mental 517 00:22:02,230 --> 00:22:05,019 ANNIE HUDSON: health, and children who have been harmed in 518 00:22:05,020 --> 00:22:07,689 ANNIE HUDSON: the extrafamilial environment, and done a bit 519 00:22:07,690 --> 00:22:10,419 ANNIE HUDSON: of a deep dive around that. 520 00:22:10,420 --> 00:22:12,279 ANNIE HUDSON: And there are some common themes which 521 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,459 ANNIE HUDSON: perhaps we can talk through about what we saw 522 00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:17,469 ANNIE HUDSON: in relation to those issues. 523 00:22:17,470 --> 00:22:20,379 JENNY COLES: A key theme throughout, as you'd probably 524 00:22:20,380 --> 00:22:22,749 JENNY COLES: expect, is multi-agency working. 525 00:22:22,750 --> 00:22:24,579 JENNY COLES: We always say, there should be better 526 00:22:24,580 --> 00:22:26,737 JENNY COLES: multi-agency working, people work in silos; 527 00:22:26,738 --> 00:22:29,649 JENNY COLES: but it is really complex. 528 00:22:29,650 --> 00:22:32,349 JENNY COLES: And we thought these three areas illustrated 529 00:22:32,350 --> 00:22:34,329 JENNY COLES: that and we understand that. 530 00:22:34,330 --> 00:22:38,259 JENNY COLES: But what our evidence shows from these reviews 531 00:22:38,260 --> 00:22:41,139 JENNY COLES: that in fact agencies, even though they come 532 00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:43,539 JENNY COLES: together in the child protection system 533 00:22:43,540 --> 00:22:45,939 JENNY COLES: through core groups or various professional 534 00:22:45,940 --> 00:22:48,999 JENNY COLES: planning groups, they're still going away and 535 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,979 JENNY COLES: doing their actions for their own agency in a 536 00:22:51,980 --> 00:22:55,009 JENNY COLES: silo rather than working 537 00:22:55,010 --> 00:22:57,799 JENNY COLES: together. So really, it's a completely 538 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,689 JENNY COLES: multi-agency approach. 539 00:22:59,690 --> 00:23:02,569 JENNY COLES: And, you know, it's very clear that the 540 00:23:02,570 --> 00:23:05,509 JENNY COLES: complexity of the challenges that families and 541 00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:07,999 JENNY COLES: children and young people face require even 542 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,819 JENNY COLES: closer collaboration than probably they did 543 00:23:10,820 --> 00:23:14,419 JENNY COLES: ten years ago, and a flexibility 544 00:23:14,420 --> 00:23:17,689 JENNY COLES: to operate and consider that range 545 00:23:17,690 --> 00:23:20,749 JENNY COLES: of information and how other 546 00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:23,299 JENNY COLES: professionals or practitioners working with 547 00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:26,029 JENNY COLES: the family or having contact with the family 548 00:23:26,030 --> 00:23:29,089 JENNY COLES: are responding. And the system that assists 549 00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:31,189 JENNY COLES: them — so the different panels, the various 550 00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:34,189 JENNY COLES: risk panels, particularly for those young 551 00:23:34,190 --> 00:23:37,459 JENNY COLES: people at risk of extra familial harm — even 552 00:23:37,460 --> 00:23:40,639 JENNY COLES: though they're multi-agency, the range of 553 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,069 JENNY COLES: arenas that they're looked at and they're 554 00:23:43,070 --> 00:23:46,039 JENNY COLES: considered in don't always work 555 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,009 JENNY COLES: together. So what you get at the end of the 556 00:23:49,010 --> 00:23:52,019 JENNY COLES: day, rather than a real focus, perhaps, 557 00:23:52,020 --> 00:23:54,119 JENNY COLES: on what is going to make the difference for 558 00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:55,929 JENNY COLES: this child or family, is 559 00:23:57,450 --> 00:24:00,569 JENNY COLES: watered down by the complexity of 560 00:24:00,570 --> 00:24:02,309 JENNY COLES: the system that's trying to deliver the 561 00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:04,139 JENNY COLES: support, if you get what I mean. 562 00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:05,669 JENNY COLES: That was clear on the way through. 563 00:24:05,670 --> 00:24:07,619 JENNY COLES: And I think, you know, in terms of the 564 00:24:07,620 --> 00:24:10,637 JENNY COLES: learning — and we do get feedback from 565 00:24:11,820 --> 00:24:14,759 JENNY COLES: safeguarding partners about what they've done 566 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,709 JENNY COLES: in between, because it takes some time to 567 00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:19,109 JENNY COLES: publish a review, particularly if there might 568 00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:21,869 JENNY COLES: be a criminal investigation or a court trial. 569 00:24:21,870 --> 00:24:25,229 JENNY COLES: It shows that people are trying to streamline 570 00:24:25,230 --> 00:24:27,839 JENNY COLES: what they do and they are — particularly 571 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,639 JENNY COLES: around the extrafamilial harms — setting up 572 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,519 JENNY COLES: multi-agency hubs, bringing professionals 573 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,249 JENNY COLES: together. And that is learning from what's 574 00:24:35,250 --> 00:24:37,019 JENNY COLES: happened out of some of these serious 575 00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:38,819 JENNY COLES: incidents and reviews. 576 00:24:38,820 --> 00:24:41,909 HOST: That must be really rewarding for the Panel: having 577 00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:44,699 HOST: a review taking place and then seeing what is being 578 00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:47,999 HOST: put into place following that. 579 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,179 HOST: Do you get a lot of that kind of feedback? 580 00:24:50,180 --> 00:24:52,339 JENNY COLES: Well we're encouraging partnerships to do it. 581 00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:54,409 JENNY COLES: And in our feedback letters we say it would 582 00:24:54,410 --> 00:24:56,539 JENNY COLES: have been really helpful— you know, you've 583 00:24:56,540 --> 00:24:58,609 JENNY COLES: made a comment that the actions we can put in 584 00:24:58,610 --> 00:25:00,709 JENNY COLES: place, but it would be really helpful just to 585 00:25:00,710 --> 00:25:03,289 JENNY COLES: know how they're going, because that all adds 586 00:25:03,290 --> 00:25:04,849 JENNY COLES: to our database. 587 00:25:04,850 --> 00:25:07,489 HOST: Okay. Shall we pause there for now, and then we can 588 00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:09,979 HOST: come back in the second half for the podcast and we 589 00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:13,159 HOST: can look in more detail at how to translate 590 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,339 HOST: the learning from the reports into improvements 591 00:25:16,340 --> 00:25:17,479 HOST: for safeguarding practice. 592 00:25:21,530 --> 00:25:24,016 OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning Podcast. 593 00:25:25,220 --> 00:25:28,099 OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was 594 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:30,739 OUTRO: up-to-date, but the world of safeguarding and child 595 00:25:30,740 --> 00:25:31,740 OUTRO: protection is ever-changing. 596 00:25:32,810 --> 00:25:34,909 OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current 597 00:25:34,910 --> 00:25:37,639 OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training, 598 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,609 OUTRO: information or resources, please visit 599 00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:42,934 OUTRO: our website for professionals at 600 00:25:42,935 --> 00:25:43,935 OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.