INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we

INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

HOST: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.

HOST: This episode is the second half of our discussion

HOST: with Annie Hudson and Jenny Coles from the Child

HOST: Safeguarding Practice Review Panel.

HOST: In the first part, we spoke about the findings from

HOST: the Panel's national review into child sexual abuse

HOST: within the family environment and their annual report

HOST: for 2023-24.

HOST: Do listen to that episode first if you haven't done

HOST: so already.

HOST: In this half, we'll look at how the Panel translates

HOST: the learning from their reports into improvements

HOST: for safeguarding practice.

HOST: So we've been talking about multi-agency working and

HOST: the challenges around information sharing, which as

HOST: you said, comes up all the time through all of these

HOST: reviews. Are there one or two things that

HOST: you think could make the biggest difference to

HOST: improving multi-agency collaboration and

HOST: communication?

ANNIE HUDSON: I think there's probably a number of things.

ANNIE HUDSON: I mean, you know, there is tension

ANNIE HUDSON: — which I know has been given — around some

ANNIE HUDSON: of the technical, kind of technological

ANNIE HUDSON: solutions. But, I mean, I think we have to be

ANNIE HUDSON: very mindful that they are not going to be a

ANNIE HUDSON: panacea. And it is much more about the kind

ANNIE HUDSON: of culture of working together that's so

ANNIE HUDSON: important. Within that, for

ANNIE HUDSON: me, it is about leadership; so leadership at

ANNIE HUDSON: a local level between the safeguarding

ANNIE HUDSON: partners.

ANNIE HUDSON: It is about giving coherent collective

ANNIE HUDSON: leadership across safeguarding local

ANNIE HUDSON: systems. But I think it's also about national

ANNIE HUDSON: leadership. And we've come to do this in

ANNIE HUDSON: a number of our reports, including the one

ANNIE HUDSON: about Arthur Labinjo-Hughes and Star Hobson,

ANNIE HUDSON: that it's really crucial that safeguarding

ANNIE HUDSON: is seen as a cross-government responsibility

ANNIE HUDSON: and duty, and that they shouldn't reinforce

ANNIE HUDSON: any of the kind of silos. So, although the

ANNIE HUDSON: Department for Education has the lead in

ANNIE HUDSON: terms of children's safeguarding and, you

ANNIE HUDSON: know making sure that working together

ANNIE HUDSON: guidance and so on is regularly updated, it

ANNIE HUDSON: involves many other departments: Department

ANNIE HUDSON: of Health and Social Care, Home Office,

ANNIE HUDSON: Ministry of Justice, Department of Housing

ANNIE HUDSON: and Local Government, and so on.

ANNIE HUDSON: So we think that cross-government cohesion is

ANNIE HUDSON: really important in promoting that coherent

ANNIE HUDSON: approach to sharing information and sharing

ANNIE HUDSON: approaches.

ANNIE HUDSON: I think that's really important.

ANNIE HUDSON: But I suppose it's also about

ANNIE HUDSON: working in a culture where professionals are

ANNIE HUDSON: able to challenge each other respectfully

ANNIE HUDSON: because this is, as we've said, very

ANNIE HUDSON: difficult, complex work.

ANNIE HUDSON: And sometimes safeguarding

ANNIE HUDSON: practitioners have to think the unthinkable

ANNIE HUDSON: about families and what may be happening, as

ANNIE HUDSON: I think this very well illustrated in the

ANNIE HUDSON: review about sexual abuse.

ANNIE HUDSON: We know sometimes people can take information

ANNIE HUDSON: too much at face value.

ANNIE HUDSON: That has been manifested in numbers

ANNIE HUDSON: of inquiries over the years.

ANNIE HUDSON: So it's encouraging that culture where people

ANNIE HUDSON: are forever curious; that they have the good

ANNIE HUDSON: relationships with families, but they also,

ANNIE HUDSON: when necessary, can be a bit sceptical and

ANNIE HUDSON: ask that second question, third order

ANNIE HUDSON: question, about what may really be happening

ANNIE HUDSON: with children and families.

JENNY COLES: And following on from that, what is really

JENNY COLES: important and comes out strongly is

JENNY COLES: the need for strong and effective links

JENNY COLES: between children's services and

JENNY COLES: adult services.

JENNY COLES: As we said earlier, that

JENNY COLES: particularly came out in the annual report

JENNY COLES: when we were looking at mental

JENNY COLES: health needs of parents of under-fives, but

JENNY COLES: actually throughout the age group.

JENNY COLES: And there rightly is a big focus on

JENNY COLES: transition, you know, ages 16 to

JENNY COLES: 25, of young people with special

JENNY COLES: educational needs and disabilities.

JENNY COLES: Adult services

JENNY COLES: are often involved with parents and carers or

JENNY COLES: extended family, and the really important

JENNY COLES: thing is that they see them as carers or

JENNY COLES: parents as well as having their individual

JENNY COLES: needs, and I think that is a strong

JENNY COLES: area that comes out in reviews and it's an

JENNY COLES: area that clearly needs to move forward.

JENNY COLES: Many safeguarding partnerships are working in

JENNY COLES: that area. And I'd say that join-up at

JENNY COLES: government level as well, Annie, going back,

JENNY COLES: you know, is the same as it is needed at a

JENNY COLES: local level.

ANNIE HUDSON: Yes.

ANNIE HUDSON: And of course, at the national level and

ANNIE HUDSON: through the new legislation, there is a

ANNIE HUDSON: direction of travel around establishing

ANNIE HUDSON: multi-agency child protection teams, which

ANNIE HUDSON: was the recommendation from the Panel in the

ANNIE HUDSON: report we did about the tragic deaths of

ANNIE HUDSON: Arthur Labinjo-Hughes and Star Hobson.

ANNIE HUDSON: That report was Child protection in England,

ANNIE HUDSON: which came to the conclusion that we needed a

ANNIE HUDSON: bit of a design change in aspects

ANNIE HUDSON: of the child protection system: so to address

ANNIE HUDSON: those points that Jenny's just been making

ANNIE HUDSON: about the fragmentation and the siloed nature

ANNIE HUDSON: of information sharing, decisions, ideas

ANNIE HUDSON: about thresholds and so on; to really develop

ANNIE HUDSON: much more of a shared culture and shared way

ANNIE HUDSON: of working; to responding to these

ANNIE HUDSON: children who are at the most at risk of

ANNIE HUDSON: significant harm.

ANNIE HUDSON: I mean, you know, one of the things we've

ANNIE HUDSON: also tried to understand and make sense of —

ANNIE HUDSON: particularly in the last two annual reports,

ANNIE HUDSON: which Jenny and I have been closely

ANNIE HUDSON: involved in — is also to recognise and speak

ANNIE HUDSON: to that context, the very challenging context

ANNIE HUDSON: of child protection and safeguarding work.

ANNIE HUDSON: Whether that's workforce turnover,

ANNIE HUDSON: whether that's diminished budgets,

ANNIE HUDSON: particularly in relation to early help and

ANNIE HUDSON: preventative services; the fact that when an

ANNIE HUDSON: agency is under pressure, there is always

ANNIE HUDSON: that likelihood of a bit of retrenchment

ANNIE HUDSON: and not reaching out to other agencies and so

ANNIE HUDSON: on. And we know the system has been under

ANNIE HUDSON: extraordinary pressure.

ANNIE HUDSON: So we have endeavoured in our last two annual

ANNIE HUDSON: reports to really speak to and articulate

ANNIE HUDSON: that much more, haven't we?

JENNY COLES: Yes. Yeah, absolutely — and how that's

JENNY COLES: impacted on engaging the children and

JENNY COLES: families, having a constant practitioner

JENNY COLES: involved, and how the feedback when

JENNY COLES: reviews have involved families, they've said

JENNY COLES: the number of people involved hasn't helped in

JENNY COLES: terms of keeping that child's story

JENNY COLES: at the centre of what you do.

JENNY COLES: But the pressures on workforce are evident

JENNY COLES: throughout. And we're not just talking about

JENNY COLES: local authority workforces, we're talking

JENNY COLES: about a variety of health practitioners as

JENNY COLES: well. So with that, that sharing

JENNY COLES: of information and the right information and

JENNY COLES: understanding — because this is complex.

JENNY COLES: You know, we always talk about sharing

JENNY COLES: information, but actually the complexity of

JENNY COLES: that, knowing what to share but understanding

JENNY COLES: it when you have it becomes even more

JENNY COLES: important.

ANNIE HUDSON: And I suppose it's one

ANNIE HUDSON: of the areas, when things have gone wrong for

ANNIE HUDSON: children, that point about information

ANNIE HUDSON: sharing comes up time and time again.

ANNIE HUDSON: I think we understand the public and

ANNIE HUDSON: sometimes the media [thinks], "well, why

ANNIE HUDSON: can't you kind of improve that and have the

ANNIE HUDSON: right systems?" And there is a point about

ANNIE HUDSON: that. The proposal around a single unique

ANNIE HUDSON: identifier, which is in the new legislation,

ANNIE HUDSON: the Children's Wellbeing [and Schools] Bill,

ANNIE HUDSON: will help, but it's much more around

ANNIE HUDSON: having the culture and the time to reflect

ANNIE HUDSON: and work together and talk together.

ANNIE HUDSON: Because sending an email, for example, which

ANNIE HUDSON: is often the quickest thing to do and which

ANNIE HUDSON: we all do when we're under pressure, may not

ANNIE HUDSON: be as enriching in terms of understanding and

ANNIE HUDSON: knowing what's going on in a family life,

ANNIE HUDSON: than picking up the phone and having the

ANNIE HUDSON: conversation with the GP or the head teacher

ANNIE HUDSON: or the school teacher or whatever.

ANNIE HUDSON: And so the point about really considering

ANNIE HUDSON: and making sure that the conditions for high

ANNIE HUDSON: quality practice are in place, which is

ANNIE HUDSON: partly about workforce and having the supply

ANNIE HUDSON: of well-qualified professionals, but it's

ANNIE HUDSON: also about enabling people to have the time

ANNIE HUDSON: and the space to really reflect on what is

ANNIE HUDSON: it we know about what's going on in this

ANNIE HUDSON: child and family's life.

ANNIE HUDSON: What is it that, you know, maybe the GP can

ANNIE HUDSON: share, or the health visitor, or the social

ANNIE HUDSON: worker, to really get that rounded and

ANNIE HUDSON: in-depth picture that is going to be a much

ANNIE HUDSON: better foundation for decisive action when

ANNIE HUDSON: decisive action needs to be taken.

HOST: Absolutely. Because you started off by

HOST: talking about the different agencies and how the

HOST: different agencies are working together, but the

HOST: practitioners themselves will just be working for one

HOST: of those agencies, and that's the context that

HOST: they're working in. But then you went on to talk

HOST: about, Annie, what professionals can do on an

HOST: individual level when they are interacting.

HOST: So I noticed that both of your reports have these

HOST: reflective questions for practitioners in

HOST: there, so that you are addressing them as well as the

HOST: agencies and the safeguarding partnerships and the

HOST: government. Can you talk a little bit more about how

HOST: you developed those reflective questions for

HOST: practitioners?

JENNY COLES: Yeah, absolutely.

JENNY COLES: I mean, we hope that the reflective questions

JENNY COLES: really help practitioners and indeed

JENNY COLES: senior leaders — they're not just for

JENNY COLES: practitioners, they're for senior leaders and

JENNY COLES: and safeguarding partnerships — to think and

JENNY COLES: reflect on their practice, take on board some

JENNY COLES: of the evidence we present in our reports and

JENNY COLES: look at how they might change their practice.

JENNY COLES: We do consult with safeguarding partners

JENNY COLES: and stakeholders around some of those

JENNY COLES: reflective questions, so we make sure that, we

JENNY COLES: hope, they'll be helpful.

JENNY COLES: They can be used in a variety of ways.

JENNY COLES: I said about talking at safeguarding

JENNY COLES: partnerships, so at a strategic level, but

JENNY COLES: practitioners can use them in their teams;

JENNY COLES: they can use them perhaps in multi-agency

JENNY COLES: meetings about how they might be working

JENNY COLES: to support a particular family as well; and

JENNY COLES: indeed inform any action planning in terms

JENNY COLES: of improving practice. I'd like to just give

JENNY COLES: one example as well.

JENNY COLES: In our forthcoming report around race and

JENNY COLES: racism in child protection decision-making,

JENNY COLES: there is a series of reflective questions in

JENNY COLES: there which we think will help practitioners

JENNY COLES: and safeguarding partners look at how they're

JENNY COLES: working with various communities and children

JENNY COLES: and families within their local areas.

JENNY COLES: And they might be uncomfortable questions, but

JENNY COLES: we hope they're practical ones, which will

JENNY COLES: help them improve their practice.

HOST: Great. So that's something to look for in the report

HOST: that will be published soon.

JENNY COLES: Yeah. Absolutely.

HOST: Lovely, thank you.

HOST: This theme around working with children and families

HOST: and all the different services that are involved with

HOST: children and families, is another common theme coming

HOST: out through all of your reports as well.

HOST: So, you've talked a little bit about this already,

HOST: but what are those main issues for practitioners

HOST: when they're working with children and families where

HOST: there are safeguarding concerns?

ANNIE HUDSON: I mean, some of it goes back to the point we

ANNIE HUDSON: were talking about earlier on about the

ANNIE HUDSON: conditions of practice. So, you know, there's

ANNIE HUDSON: the obvious things about reasonable

ANNIE HUDSON: workloads. Having access to really good

ANNIE HUDSON: supervision — and by that, I think we

ANNIE HUDSON: mean not just that somebody is making sure

ANNIE HUDSON: that they've done the right things and filled

ANNIE HUDSON: out the right forms, and that sort of

ANNIE HUDSON: bureaucratic side of protection work is

ANNIE HUDSON: important, and I would never want to diminish

ANNIE HUDSON: its significance — but it's also about having

ANNIE HUDSON: supervision that actually enables pupils to

ANNIE HUDSON: really reflect on their assumptions, their

ANNIE HUDSON: bias within. They need to, you know...

ANNIE HUDSON: family lives can change very dramatically

ANNIE HUDSON: and very suddenly, and [they need] to really

ANNIE HUDSON: incorporate what's happened or a recent

ANNIE HUDSON: change in family in terms of what does that

ANNIE HUDSON: mean for a child. So I think that supervision

ANNIE HUDSON: is so, so important.

ANNIE HUDSON: I do think that the proposal around

ANNIE HUDSON: multi-agency child protection teams — which

ANNIE HUDSON: of course is being tested out now through

ANNIE HUDSON: ten pathfinder areas — which is really

ANNIE HUDSON: about bringing together some of those

ANNIE HUDSON: professionals and agencies so that you can

ANNIE HUDSON: have much more of a real time picture of all

ANNIE HUDSON: the information that different professionals

ANNIE HUDSON: will have about what's going on.

ANNIE HUDSON: I think for me, that gives us a lot of

ANNIE HUDSON: optimism and hope that we can begin

ANNIE HUDSON: to address some of the faultlines in the

ANNIE HUDSON: system that have surfaced as these perennial

ANNIE HUDSON: themes in very many inquiries and regularly

ANNIE HUDSON: in local reviews.

ANNIE HUDSON: That shift of culture and ways of working, I

ANNIE HUDSON: think, isn't going to be the absolute

ANNIE HUDSON: solution because this is really, really

ANNIE HUDSON: difficult work. And I think sometimes people

ANNIE HUDSON: want or hope that people can look into the

ANNIE HUDSON: crystal ball and know what's going to happen

ANNIE HUDSON: next week with a child in the family.

ANNIE HUDSON: Nobody can ever do that.

ANNIE HUDSON: But what we can do is understand risk and

ANNIE HUDSON: assess risk and make the decisions the best

ANNIE HUDSON: possible decisions for a child based on the

ANNIE HUDSON: information that we have.

JENNY COLES: Yeah, I don't think I've got anything more

JENNY COLES: really to add actually, Annie, to

JENNY COLES: that. You know, that is the core.

JENNY COLES: And from the evidence we can see,

JENNY COLES: bringing professionals together and indeed

JENNY COLES: co-locating them in some of the tasks

JENNY COLES: that are required in terms of doing good child

JENNY COLES: protection will really encourage that.

JENNY COLES: That was a very clear message from the Child

JENNY COLES: Protection in England review there.

JENNY COLES: And we can see that played out in individual

JENNY COLES: reviews as well.

ANNIE HUDSON: And I think it's also probably important to

ANNIE HUDSON: say, although we are looking through that

ANNIE HUDSON: lens of when things have gone awfully wrong

ANNIE HUDSON: for children, and that's undeniable,

ANNIE HUDSON: what we do see is some really good and strong

ANNIE HUDSON: practice too. Sometimes in terms

ANNIE HUDSON: of that, almost the primary task of child

ANNIE HUDSON: protection — well, one of the primary tasks —

ANNIE HUDSON: which is to understand what life is really

ANNIE HUDSON: like for a child and not to assume that what

ANNIE HUDSON: a parent may say or what a professional might

ANNIE HUDSON: think is the absolute truth, not that there

ANNIE HUDSON: is necessarily one truth.

ANNIE HUDSON: But we see some really wonderful

ANNIE HUDSON: examples of great imagination and creativity

ANNIE HUDSON: by professionals in finding ways to talk to

ANNIE HUDSON: children, to help them talk about what's

ANNIE HUDSON: going on for them. But it's also clear that

ANNIE HUDSON: that requires that time and space

ANNIE HUDSON: and ability to go on learning and developing

ANNIE HUDSON: your skills, because children are not

ANNIE HUDSON: immediately going to talk about the horrible

ANNIE HUDSON: things in their lives, they will often clam

ANNIE HUDSON: up. And so it requires extraordinary skill

ANNIE HUDSON: and imagination for practitioners

ANNIE HUDSON: to really be able to step into that child's

ANNIE HUDSON: life, mind, experience and then to be able to

ANNIE HUDSON: make sense of it so that the right decisions

ANNIE HUDSON: can be made.

JENNY COLES: I think the other area I'd like to add, and

JENNY COLES: what we've seen through reviews, probably in

JENNY COLES: the last 18 months, is the inclusion of the

JENNY COLES: whole family and particularly males; fathers,

JENNY COLES: grandfathers and so forth.

JENNY COLES: The Panel did a review probably about three

JENNY COLES: years or more ago, and that's referenced

JENNY COLES: in reviews, but we can see that actually

JENNY COLES: the immediate and extended family are

JENNY COLES: increasingly involved in terms of the support

JENNY COLES: and work and contribution to protecting

JENNY COLES: children, which has been really, really

JENNY COLES: good practice and good to see.

HOST: It sounds really important that, doesn't it?

HOST: And absolutely it should be happening.

HOST: And it must also be challenging for the

HOST: practitioners, though, to be working with these wider

HOST: families and understanding what's going

HOST: on and who's involved and the different

HOST: stories that they may be hearing from the different

HOST: practitioners.

ANNIE HUDSON: Yeah. And I think that, you know, you're

ANNIE HUDSON: getting there to the heart of

ANNIE HUDSON: the intrinsic challenge of protecting

ANNIE HUDSON: children.

ANNIE HUDSON: Making sense of those different stories and

ANNIE HUDSON: perspectives you will get from different

ANNIE HUDSON: family members, which, you know, going back

ANNIE HUDSON: to that point about engaging with children so

ANNIE HUDSON: you have a sense — harder, obviously with

ANNIE HUDSON: non-verbal children, babies and so on — what

ANNIE HUDSON: life is like for them.

ANNIE HUDSON: But it just does highlight how it is such

ANNIE HUDSON: difficult, difficult work and how,

ANNIE HUDSON: you know, I think it was well evidenced in

ANNIE HUDSON: the stories about Arthur and Starr that

ANNIE HUDSON: suddenly things can change in a family, and

ANNIE HUDSON: how a parent is can become very different

ANNIE HUDSON: because of those changes.

ANNIE HUDSON: So, you know, you can't assume that how

ANNIE HUDSON: things were six months ago is how things are

ANNIE HUDSON: now for a child.

ANNIE HUDSON: But that's the nature of child protection is

ANNIE HUDSON: that you have to, as I think, a social work

ANNIE HUDSON: academic said, you have to think the worst of

ANNIE HUDSON: families and the best of families

ANNIE HUDSON: simultaneously; and that's tough, I think.

HOST: And it's also the...

HOST: This goes back to the importance of information

HOST: sharing, that a new piece of information that

HOST: comes to light, either because something wasn't known

HOST: before or because circumstances have changed,

HOST: and that's why it's so important that that new

HOST: information is then shared to put those pieces

HOST: together again, isn't it? So that then we've got a

HOST: better overview of what is really going on for that

HOST: child. So we've been having

HOST: a really good discussion around how challenging

HOST: and complex child protection and safeguarding is, and

HOST: how we need to work with children and families, and

HOST: how agencies need to work with each other.

HOST: So many different, important things.

HOST: But how does the Panel work

HOST: to influence some of these things?

HOST: Working with government, working with other national

HOST: agencies in order to improve what

HOST: is happening for children on the ground in the way

HOST: that the professionals are able to respond.

ANNIE HUDSON: So I suppose we do that in a number of ways

ANNIE HUDSON: in terms of the national outward look

ANNIE HUDSON: aspect of the work.

ANNIE HUDSON: Clearly, as you've heard today, through

ANNIE HUDSON: national reviews we make recommendations to

ANNIE HUDSON: government. So the two that we've mentioned

ANNIE HUDSON: around sexual abuse in the family involvement

ANNIE HUDSON: make very clear recommendations to

ANNIE HUDSON: government, and we know that they will

ANNIE HUDSON: respond when they've

ANNIE HUDSON: had a chance to digest and so on.

ANNIE HUDSON: And similarly with the Child Protection in

ANNIE HUDSON: England report there were a number of

ANNIE HUDSON: recommendations about multi-agency child

ANNIE HUDSON: protection teams, cross-government working,

ANNIE HUDSON: aspects of working together which we felt

ANNIE HUDSON: needed to change.

ANNIE HUDSON: Again, that came through; obviously in time

ANNIE HUDSON: there was a new Working together [to

ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding children statutory guidance] which reflected some

ANNIE HUDSON: of those findings.

ANNIE HUDSON: And then I suppose there's a broader

ANNIE HUDSON: way in which we might try and influence

ANNIE HUDSON: government. For example, in terms of

ANNIE HUDSON: improving how information sharing

ANNIE HUDSON: operates, which may come out of the evidence

ANNIE HUDSON: from national reviews or local reviews, but

ANNIE HUDSON: where we're seeking to influence across

ANNIE HUDSON: government the way in which they're thinking

ANNIE HUDSON: — depending a bit on their priorities

ANNIE HUDSON: at the time. One of the reviews that

ANNIE HUDSON: we did about children with disabilities

ANNIE HUDSON: living in residential homes, there was some

ANNIE HUDSON: very important recommendations in there about

ANNIE HUDSON: regulation and inspection.

JENNY COLES: That review considered many children

JENNY COLES: actually where they were living away from

JENNY COLES: home, and therefore that adds to their

JENNY COLES: vulnerability. Many of them were non-verbal

JENNY COLES: or at least had alternative means of

JENNY COLES: communication.

JENNY COLES: And out of that [came] very clear

JENNY COLES: learning and evidence for change

JENNY COLES: in the regulation of residential

JENNY COLES: schools that had care and children's homes;

JENNY COLES: refocusing of the inspection system

JENNY COLES: by Ofsted and the Care Quality Commission;

JENNY COLES: and really looking at the

JENNY COLES: regulation and the quality of the workforce

JENNY COLES: who work in residential care.

JENNY COLES: So they were very clear national

JENNY COLES: recommendations as well as advocacy for

JENNY COLES: children with complex health needs

JENNY COLES: and disabilities. So a real attempt,

JENNY COLES: we hope, to change the national system and

JENNY COLES: improve the protection of children who have to

JENNY COLES: live away from home.

ANNIE HUDSON: And I suppose that review in a way

ANNIE HUDSON: encapsulates, as other reviews have done,

ANNIE HUDSON: the role of the Panel in being very

ANNIE HUDSON: evidence-led.

ANNIE HUDSON: I mean, that's what is one of our mantras,

ANNIE HUDSON: that is about looking at the evidence

ANNIE HUDSON: and evaluating the evidence — or indeed

ANNIE HUDSON: sometimes where there is a lack of evidence —

ANNIE HUDSON: but speaking to that and using that to

ANNIE HUDSON: challenge, sometimes provoke, sometimes

ANNIE HUDSON: prompt questions about practice, but also

ANNIE HUDSON: about policy. So I suppose we sit between

ANNIE HUDSON: looking at the granular detail and

ANNIE HUDSON: understanding that, but also speaking

ANNIE HUDSON: to the wider strategic conversations that are

ANNIE HUDSON: going on. So we're one of the players in that

ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding national ecosystem, but working

ANNIE HUDSON: with other organisations: the associations,

ANNIE HUDSON: directors of Children's Services, College of

ANNIE HUDSON: Policing, NHS England and indeed,

ANNIE HUDSON: you know, voluntary organisations, the NSPCC.

ANNIE HUDSON: I mean we have, I think, a

ANNIE HUDSON: developing collaboration in terms of working

ANNIE HUDSON: within our different and respective roles,

ANNIE HUDSON: but where we can kind of come together, for

ANNIE HUDSON: example, as we're thinking about in relation

ANNIE HUDSON: to neglect. The NSPCC has done some work on

ANNIE HUDSON: neglect, we are doing something.

ANNIE HUDSON: So using that, creating

ANNIE HUDSON: coalitions where coming together can

ANNIE HUDSON: create the potential for greater influence

ANNIE HUDSON: and impact in the longer term on children.

ANNIE HUDSON: And that's what we're all here to do, isn't

ANNIE HUDSON: it?

JENNY COLES: And that review we've just been talking about

JENNY COLES: was done in collaboration with the Council for

JENNY COLES: Disabled Children and the National Children's

JENNY COLES: Bureau.

HOST: Lovely. That feels like a really perfect place to end

HOST: the podcast today.

HOST: Thank you very much for your time, both

HOST: of you. I think that's been a really interesting

HOST: discussion. For our listeners, you can read both

HOST: the reports we've talked about today on the GOV.UK

HOST: website, and we'll put the links to the reports in

HOST: the podcast shownotes.

HOST: There's lots more information about case reviews on

HOST: the NSPCC Learning website as well.

HOST: But no, thank you very much both for your time.

JENNY COLES: Thank you.

ANNIE HUDSON: Thank you.

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning Podcast.

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was

OUTRO: up-to-date, but the world of safeguarding and child

OUTRO: protection is ever-changing.

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OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

OUTRO: information or resources, please visit

OUTRO: our website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.