1 00:00:03,090 --> 00:00:06,149 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we 2 00:00:06,150 --> 00:00:08,999 INTRO: share learning and expertise in child protection 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,209 INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation. 4 00:00:12,210 --> 00:00:15,329 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and 5 00:00:15,330 --> 00:00:18,449 INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together 6 00:00:18,450 --> 00:00:21,209 INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe. 7 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:28,199 HOST: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,019 HOST: This episode is the second half of our discussion 9 00:00:31,020 --> 00:00:33,929 HOST: with Annie Hudson and Jenny Coles from the Child 10 00:00:33,930 --> 00:00:35,609 HOST: Safeguarding Practice Review Panel. 11 00:00:36,750 --> 00:00:39,479 HOST: In the first part, we spoke about the findings from 12 00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:42,509 HOST: the Panel's national review into child sexual abuse 13 00:00:42,510 --> 00:00:46,079 HOST: within the family environment and their annual report 14 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:47,080 HOST: for 2023-24. 15 00:00:49,260 --> 00:00:51,809 HOST: Do listen to that episode first if you haven't done 16 00:00:51,810 --> 00:00:52,810 HOST: so already. 17 00:00:53,700 --> 00:00:56,669 HOST: In this half, we'll look at how the Panel translates 18 00:00:56,670 --> 00:00:59,819 HOST: the learning from their reports into improvements 19 00:00:59,820 --> 00:01:01,320 HOST: for safeguarding practice. 20 00:01:07,290 --> 00:01:10,889 HOST: So we've been talking about multi-agency working and 21 00:01:10,890 --> 00:01:13,739 HOST: the challenges around information sharing, which as 22 00:01:13,740 --> 00:01:16,799 HOST: you said, comes up all the time through all of these 23 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,769 HOST: reviews. Are there one or two things that 24 00:01:19,770 --> 00:01:22,079 HOST: you think could make the biggest difference to 25 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,899 HOST: improving multi-agency collaboration and 26 00:01:24,900 --> 00:01:26,129 HOST: communication? 27 00:01:26,130 --> 00:01:27,389 ANNIE HUDSON: I think there's probably a number of things. 28 00:01:27,390 --> 00:01:30,629 ANNIE HUDSON: I mean, you know, there is tension 29 00:01:30,630 --> 00:01:32,279 ANNIE HUDSON: — which I know has been given — around some 30 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,919 ANNIE HUDSON: of the technical, kind of technological 31 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,709 ANNIE HUDSON: solutions. But, I mean, I think we have to be 32 00:01:37,710 --> 00:01:39,329 ANNIE HUDSON: very mindful that they are not going to be a 33 00:01:39,330 --> 00:01:41,909 ANNIE HUDSON: panacea. And it is much more about the kind 34 00:01:41,910 --> 00:01:44,729 ANNIE HUDSON: of culture of working together that's so 35 00:01:44,730 --> 00:01:47,729 ANNIE HUDSON: important. Within that, for 36 00:01:47,730 --> 00:01:50,729 ANNIE HUDSON: me, it is about leadership; so leadership at 37 00:01:50,730 --> 00:01:52,439 ANNIE HUDSON: a local level between the safeguarding 38 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:53,879 ANNIE HUDSON: partners. 39 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,009 ANNIE HUDSON: It is about giving coherent collective 40 00:01:56,010 --> 00:01:59,309 ANNIE HUDSON: leadership across safeguarding local 41 00:01:59,310 --> 00:02:01,679 ANNIE HUDSON: systems. But I think it's also about national 42 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,769 ANNIE HUDSON: leadership. And we've come to do this in 43 00:02:04,770 --> 00:02:07,139 ANNIE HUDSON: a number of our reports, including the one 44 00:02:07,140 --> 00:02:10,109 ANNIE HUDSON: about Arthur Labinjo-Hughes and Star Hobson, 45 00:02:10,110 --> 00:02:13,079 ANNIE HUDSON: that it's really crucial that safeguarding 46 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,749 ANNIE HUDSON: is seen as a cross-government responsibility 47 00:02:15,750 --> 00:02:18,600 ANNIE HUDSON: and duty, and that they shouldn't reinforce 48 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,459 ANNIE HUDSON: any of the kind of silos. So, although the 49 00:02:23,460 --> 00:02:25,349 ANNIE HUDSON: Department for Education has the lead in 50 00:02:25,350 --> 00:02:27,719 ANNIE HUDSON: terms of children's safeguarding and, you 51 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,389 ANNIE HUDSON: know making sure that working together 52 00:02:30,390 --> 00:02:33,149 ANNIE HUDSON: guidance and so on is regularly updated, it 53 00:02:33,150 --> 00:02:36,059 ANNIE HUDSON: involves many other departments: Department 54 00:02:36,060 --> 00:02:38,159 ANNIE HUDSON: of Health and Social Care, Home Office, 55 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,889 ANNIE HUDSON: Ministry of Justice, Department of Housing 56 00:02:40,890 --> 00:02:42,599 ANNIE HUDSON: and Local Government, and so on. 57 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,689 ANNIE HUDSON: So we think that cross-government cohesion is 58 00:02:45,690 --> 00:02:49,319 ANNIE HUDSON: really important in promoting that coherent 59 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,949 ANNIE HUDSON: approach to sharing information and sharing 60 00:02:52,950 --> 00:02:54,599 ANNIE HUDSON: approaches. 61 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,579 ANNIE HUDSON: I think that's really important. 62 00:02:56,580 --> 00:02:59,789 ANNIE HUDSON: But I suppose it's also about 63 00:02:59,790 --> 00:03:02,009 ANNIE HUDSON: working in a culture where professionals are 64 00:03:02,010 --> 00:03:04,769 ANNIE HUDSON: able to challenge each other respectfully 65 00:03:04,770 --> 00:03:08,009 ANNIE HUDSON: because this is, as we've said, very 66 00:03:08,010 --> 00:03:10,079 ANNIE HUDSON: difficult, complex work. 67 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,289 ANNIE HUDSON: And sometimes safeguarding 68 00:03:13,290 --> 00:03:15,239 ANNIE HUDSON: practitioners have to think the unthinkable 69 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,179 ANNIE HUDSON: about families and what may be happening, as 70 00:03:18,180 --> 00:03:20,249 ANNIE HUDSON: I think this very well illustrated in the 71 00:03:20,250 --> 00:03:22,529 ANNIE HUDSON: review about sexual abuse. 72 00:03:22,530 --> 00:03:25,979 ANNIE HUDSON: We know sometimes people can take information 73 00:03:25,980 --> 00:03:27,599 ANNIE HUDSON: too much at face value. 74 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,779 ANNIE HUDSON: That has been manifested in numbers 75 00:03:30,780 --> 00:03:33,239 ANNIE HUDSON: of inquiries over the years. 76 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,729 ANNIE HUDSON: So it's encouraging that culture where people 77 00:03:35,730 --> 00:03:38,339 ANNIE HUDSON: are forever curious; that they have the good 78 00:03:38,340 --> 00:03:40,319 ANNIE HUDSON: relationships with families, but they also, 79 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,869 ANNIE HUDSON: when necessary, can be a bit sceptical and 80 00:03:42,870 --> 00:03:45,389 ANNIE HUDSON: ask that second question, third order 81 00:03:45,390 --> 00:03:47,789 ANNIE HUDSON: question, about what may really be happening 82 00:03:47,790 --> 00:03:49,589 ANNIE HUDSON: with children and families. 83 00:03:49,590 --> 00:03:52,769 JENNY COLES: And following on from that, what is really 84 00:03:52,770 --> 00:03:56,009 JENNY COLES: important and comes out strongly is 85 00:03:56,010 --> 00:03:58,199 JENNY COLES: the need for strong and effective links 86 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,379 JENNY COLES: between children's services and 87 00:04:01,380 --> 00:04:02,829 JENNY COLES: adult services. 88 00:04:02,830 --> 00:04:05,859 JENNY COLES: As we said earlier, that 89 00:04:05,860 --> 00:04:08,509 JENNY COLES: particularly came out in the annual report 90 00:04:08,510 --> 00:04:11,889 JENNY COLES: when we were looking at mental 91 00:04:11,890 --> 00:04:14,679 JENNY COLES: health needs of parents of under-fives, but 92 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,540 JENNY COLES: actually throughout the age group. 93 00:04:16,541 --> 00:04:19,838 JENNY COLES: And there rightly is a big focus on 94 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,999 JENNY COLES: transition, you know, ages 16 to 95 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,049 JENNY COLES: 25, of young people with special 96 00:04:26,050 --> 00:04:27,350 JENNY COLES: educational needs and disabilities. 97 00:04:27,351 --> 00:04:30,339 JENNY COLES: Adult services 98 00:04:30,340 --> 00:04:32,889 JENNY COLES: are often involved with parents and carers or 99 00:04:32,890 --> 00:04:35,649 JENNY COLES: extended family, and the really important 100 00:04:35,650 --> 00:04:38,859 JENNY COLES: thing is that they see them as carers or 101 00:04:38,860 --> 00:04:41,979 JENNY COLES: parents as well as having their individual 102 00:04:41,980 --> 00:04:45,189 JENNY COLES: needs, and I think that is a strong 103 00:04:45,190 --> 00:04:47,709 JENNY COLES: area that comes out in reviews and it's an 104 00:04:47,710 --> 00:04:51,159 JENNY COLES: area that clearly needs to move forward. 105 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,619 JENNY COLES: Many safeguarding partnerships are working in 106 00:04:53,620 --> 00:04:55,779 JENNY COLES: that area. And I'd say that join-up at 107 00:04:55,780 --> 00:04:58,329 JENNY COLES: government level as well, Annie, going back, 108 00:04:58,330 --> 00:05:00,969 JENNY COLES: you know, is the same as it is needed at a 109 00:05:00,970 --> 00:05:01,457 JENNY COLES: local level. 110 00:05:01,458 --> 00:05:02,458 ANNIE HUDSON: Yes. 111 00:05:03,070 --> 00:05:06,279 ANNIE HUDSON: And of course, at the national level and 112 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:09,219 ANNIE HUDSON: through the new legislation, there is a 113 00:05:09,220 --> 00:05:10,899 ANNIE HUDSON: direction of travel around establishing 114 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:13,029 ANNIE HUDSON: multi-agency child protection teams, which 115 00:05:13,030 --> 00:05:15,429 ANNIE HUDSON: was the recommendation from the Panel in the 116 00:05:15,430 --> 00:05:17,889 ANNIE HUDSON: report we did about the tragic deaths of 117 00:05:17,890 --> 00:05:21,009 ANNIE HUDSON: Arthur Labinjo-Hughes and Star Hobson. 118 00:05:21,010 --> 00:05:22,839 ANNIE HUDSON: That report was Child protection in England, 119 00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:25,149 ANNIE HUDSON: which came to the conclusion that we needed a 120 00:05:25,150 --> 00:05:28,179 ANNIE HUDSON: bit of a design change in aspects 121 00:05:28,180 --> 00:05:30,999 ANNIE HUDSON: of the child protection system: so to address 122 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:32,859 ANNIE HUDSON: those points that Jenny's just been making 123 00:05:32,860 --> 00:05:35,469 ANNIE HUDSON: about the fragmentation and the siloed nature 124 00:05:35,470 --> 00:05:38,799 ANNIE HUDSON: of information sharing, decisions, ideas 125 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,069 ANNIE HUDSON: about thresholds and so on; to really develop 126 00:05:42,070 --> 00:05:44,859 ANNIE HUDSON: much more of a shared culture and shared way 127 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:48,279 ANNIE HUDSON: of working; to responding to these 128 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:50,439 ANNIE HUDSON: children who are at the most at risk of 129 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:51,939 ANNIE HUDSON: significant harm. 130 00:05:51,940 --> 00:05:53,589 ANNIE HUDSON: I mean, you know, one of the things we've 131 00:05:53,590 --> 00:05:56,449 ANNIE HUDSON: also tried to understand and make sense of — 132 00:05:56,450 --> 00:05:58,336 ANNIE HUDSON: particularly in the last two annual reports, 133 00:05:58,337 --> 00:06:01,299 ANNIE HUDSON: which Jenny and I have been closely 134 00:06:01,300 --> 00:06:04,449 ANNIE HUDSON: involved in — is also to recognise and speak 135 00:06:04,450 --> 00:06:08,229 ANNIE HUDSON: to that context, the very challenging context 136 00:06:08,230 --> 00:06:10,346 ANNIE HUDSON: of child protection and safeguarding work. 137 00:06:10,347 --> 00:06:13,659 ANNIE HUDSON: Whether that's workforce turnover, 138 00:06:13,660 --> 00:06:16,509 ANNIE HUDSON: whether that's diminished budgets, 139 00:06:16,510 --> 00:06:18,519 ANNIE HUDSON: particularly in relation to early help and 140 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,159 ANNIE HUDSON: preventative services; the fact that when an 141 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,769 ANNIE HUDSON: agency is under pressure, there is always 142 00:06:23,770 --> 00:06:26,829 ANNIE HUDSON: that likelihood of a bit of retrenchment 143 00:06:26,830 --> 00:06:29,439 ANNIE HUDSON: and not reaching out to other agencies and so 144 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,719 ANNIE HUDSON: on. And we know the system has been under 145 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,789 ANNIE HUDSON: extraordinary pressure. 146 00:06:33,790 --> 00:06:36,639 ANNIE HUDSON: So we have endeavoured in our last two annual 147 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,669 ANNIE HUDSON: reports to really speak to and articulate 148 00:06:39,670 --> 00:06:41,059 ANNIE HUDSON: that much more, haven't we? 149 00:06:41,060 --> 00:06:43,659 JENNY COLES: Yes. Yeah, absolutely — and how that's 150 00:06:43,660 --> 00:06:46,629 JENNY COLES: impacted on engaging the children and 151 00:06:46,630 --> 00:06:49,689 JENNY COLES: families, having a constant practitioner 152 00:06:49,690 --> 00:06:52,899 JENNY COLES: involved, and how the feedback when 153 00:06:52,900 --> 00:06:54,969 JENNY COLES: reviews have involved families, they've said 154 00:06:54,970 --> 00:06:57,759 JENNY COLES: the number of people involved hasn't helped in 155 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,729 JENNY COLES: terms of keeping that child's story 156 00:07:00,730 --> 00:07:02,529 JENNY COLES: at the centre of what you do. 157 00:07:02,530 --> 00:07:05,409 JENNY COLES: But the pressures on workforce are evident 158 00:07:05,410 --> 00:07:07,359 JENNY COLES: throughout. And we're not just talking about 159 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,279 JENNY COLES: local authority workforces, we're talking 160 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:12,219 JENNY COLES: about a variety of health practitioners as 161 00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:16,029 JENNY COLES: well. So with that, that sharing 162 00:07:16,030 --> 00:07:18,279 JENNY COLES: of information and the right information and 163 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,859 JENNY COLES: understanding — because this is complex. 164 00:07:20,860 --> 00:07:22,359 JENNY COLES: You know, we always talk about sharing 165 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,459 JENNY COLES: information, but actually the complexity of 166 00:07:24,460 --> 00:07:27,549 JENNY COLES: that, knowing what to share but understanding 167 00:07:27,550 --> 00:07:29,499 JENNY COLES: it when you have it becomes even more 168 00:07:29,500 --> 00:07:29,693 JENNY COLES: important. 169 00:07:29,694 --> 00:07:32,739 ANNIE HUDSON: And I suppose it's one 170 00:07:32,740 --> 00:07:35,019 ANNIE HUDSON: of the areas, when things have gone wrong for 171 00:07:35,020 --> 00:07:37,989 ANNIE HUDSON: children, that point about information 172 00:07:37,990 --> 00:07:40,136 ANNIE HUDSON: sharing comes up time and time again. 173 00:07:41,230 --> 00:07:43,779 ANNIE HUDSON: I think we understand the public and 174 00:07:43,780 --> 00:07:45,999 ANNIE HUDSON: sometimes the media [thinks], "well, why 175 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,589 ANNIE HUDSON: can't you kind of improve that and have the 176 00:07:47,590 --> 00:07:50,559 ANNIE HUDSON: right systems?" And there is a point about 177 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,409 ANNIE HUDSON: that. The proposal around a single unique 178 00:07:53,410 --> 00:07:55,021 ANNIE HUDSON: identifier, which is in the new legislation, 179 00:07:55,022 --> 00:07:56,859 ANNIE HUDSON: the Children's Wellbeing [and Schools] Bill, 180 00:07:56,860 --> 00:08:00,789 ANNIE HUDSON: will help, but it's much more around 181 00:08:00,790 --> 00:08:03,819 ANNIE HUDSON: having the culture and the time to reflect 182 00:08:03,820 --> 00:08:05,769 ANNIE HUDSON: and work together and talk together. 183 00:08:05,770 --> 00:08:08,319 ANNIE HUDSON: Because sending an email, for example, which 184 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,119 ANNIE HUDSON: is often the quickest thing to do and which 185 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,849 ANNIE HUDSON: we all do when we're under pressure, may not 186 00:08:12,850 --> 00:08:15,519 ANNIE HUDSON: be as enriching in terms of understanding and 187 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,349 ANNIE HUDSON: knowing what's going on in a family life, 188 00:08:17,350 --> 00:08:19,449 ANNIE HUDSON: than picking up the phone and having the 189 00:08:19,450 --> 00:08:22,059 ANNIE HUDSON: conversation with the GP or the head teacher 190 00:08:22,060 --> 00:08:23,979 ANNIE HUDSON: or the school teacher or whatever. 191 00:08:23,980 --> 00:08:27,519 ANNIE HUDSON: And so the point about really considering 192 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,789 ANNIE HUDSON: and making sure that the conditions for high 193 00:08:30,790 --> 00:08:33,219 ANNIE HUDSON: quality practice are in place, which is 194 00:08:33,220 --> 00:08:35,889 ANNIE HUDSON: partly about workforce and having the supply 195 00:08:35,890 --> 00:08:38,469 ANNIE HUDSON: of well-qualified professionals, but it's 196 00:08:38,470 --> 00:08:41,798 ANNIE HUDSON: also about enabling people to have the time 197 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:44,769 ANNIE HUDSON: and the space to really reflect on what is 198 00:08:44,770 --> 00:08:46,689 ANNIE HUDSON: it we know about what's going on in this 199 00:08:46,690 --> 00:08:48,309 ANNIE HUDSON: child and family's life. 200 00:08:48,310 --> 00:08:50,739 ANNIE HUDSON: What is it that, you know, maybe the GP can 201 00:08:50,740 --> 00:08:52,659 ANNIE HUDSON: share, or the health visitor, or the social 202 00:08:52,660 --> 00:08:55,359 ANNIE HUDSON: worker, to really get that rounded and 203 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,939 ANNIE HUDSON: in-depth picture that is going to be a much 204 00:08:57,940 --> 00:09:00,939 ANNIE HUDSON: better foundation for decisive action when 205 00:09:00,940 --> 00:09:03,609 ANNIE HUDSON: decisive action needs to be taken. 206 00:09:03,610 --> 00:09:06,579 HOST: Absolutely. Because you started off by 207 00:09:06,580 --> 00:09:09,069 HOST: talking about the different agencies and how the 208 00:09:09,070 --> 00:09:11,529 HOST: different agencies are working together, but the 209 00:09:11,530 --> 00:09:13,749 HOST: practitioners themselves will just be working for one 210 00:09:13,750 --> 00:09:15,999 HOST: of those agencies, and that's the context that 211 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,429 HOST: they're working in. But then you went on to talk 212 00:09:18,430 --> 00:09:20,889 HOST: about, Annie, what professionals can do on an 213 00:09:20,890 --> 00:09:23,439 HOST: individual level when they are interacting. 214 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,719 HOST: So I noticed that both of your reports have these 215 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,749 HOST: reflective questions for practitioners in 216 00:09:28,750 --> 00:09:31,899 HOST: there, so that you are addressing them as well as the 217 00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:34,059 HOST: agencies and the safeguarding partnerships and the 218 00:09:34,060 --> 00:09:36,639 HOST: government. Can you talk a little bit more about how 219 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,859 HOST: you developed those reflective questions for 220 00:09:38,860 --> 00:09:39,759 HOST: practitioners? 221 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:41,169 JENNY COLES: Yeah, absolutely. 222 00:09:41,170 --> 00:09:44,619 JENNY COLES: I mean, we hope that the reflective questions 223 00:09:44,620 --> 00:09:47,679 JENNY COLES: really help practitioners and indeed 224 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:49,329 JENNY COLES: senior leaders — they're not just for 225 00:09:49,330 --> 00:09:51,309 JENNY COLES: practitioners, they're for senior leaders and 226 00:09:51,310 --> 00:09:54,249 JENNY COLES: and safeguarding partnerships — to think and 227 00:09:54,250 --> 00:09:56,709 JENNY COLES: reflect on their practice, take on board some 228 00:09:56,710 --> 00:09:59,439 JENNY COLES: of the evidence we present in our reports and 229 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,749 JENNY COLES: look at how they might change their practice. 230 00:10:01,750 --> 00:10:04,719 JENNY COLES: We do consult with safeguarding partners 231 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,519 JENNY COLES: and stakeholders around some of those 232 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,799 JENNY COLES: reflective questions, so we make sure that, we 233 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:10,509 JENNY COLES: hope, they'll be helpful. 234 00:10:10,510 --> 00:10:12,609 JENNY COLES: They can be used in a variety of ways. 235 00:10:12,610 --> 00:10:14,919 JENNY COLES: I said about talking at safeguarding 236 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,009 JENNY COLES: partnerships, so at a strategic level, but 237 00:10:18,010 --> 00:10:19,728 JENNY COLES: practitioners can use them in their teams; 238 00:10:19,729 --> 00:10:22,539 JENNY COLES: they can use them perhaps in multi-agency 239 00:10:22,540 --> 00:10:25,749 JENNY COLES: meetings about how they might be working 240 00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:28,569 JENNY COLES: to support a particular family as well; and 241 00:10:28,570 --> 00:10:31,869 JENNY COLES: indeed inform any action planning in terms 242 00:10:31,870 --> 00:10:34,509 JENNY COLES: of improving practice. I'd like to just give 243 00:10:34,510 --> 00:10:36,099 JENNY COLES: one example as well. 244 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:38,799 JENNY COLES: In our forthcoming report around race and 245 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,769 JENNY COLES: racism in child protection decision-making, 246 00:10:41,770 --> 00:10:44,199 JENNY COLES: there is a series of reflective questions in 247 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,949 JENNY COLES: there which we think will help practitioners 248 00:10:47,950 --> 00:10:50,739 JENNY COLES: and safeguarding partners look at how they're 249 00:10:50,740 --> 00:10:53,889 JENNY COLES: working with various communities and children 250 00:10:53,890 --> 00:10:56,559 JENNY COLES: and families within their local areas. 251 00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:59,259 JENNY COLES: And they might be uncomfortable questions, but 252 00:10:59,260 --> 00:11:01,149 JENNY COLES: we hope they're practical ones, which will 253 00:11:01,150 --> 00:11:02,740 JENNY COLES: help them improve their practice. 254 00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:06,850 HOST: Great. So that's something to look for in the report 255 00:11:06,851 --> 00:11:09,129 HOST: that will be published soon. 256 00:11:09,130 --> 00:11:10,299 JENNY COLES: Yeah. Absolutely. 257 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:11,919 HOST: Lovely, thank you. 258 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,829 HOST: This theme around working with children and families 259 00:11:14,830 --> 00:11:16,779 HOST: and all the different services that are involved with 260 00:11:16,780 --> 00:11:19,629 HOST: children and families, is another common theme coming 261 00:11:19,630 --> 00:11:22,089 HOST: out through all of your reports as well. 262 00:11:22,090 --> 00:11:24,579 HOST: So, you've talked a little bit about this already, 263 00:11:24,580 --> 00:11:27,819 HOST: but what are those main issues for practitioners 264 00:11:27,820 --> 00:11:30,219 HOST: when they're working with children and families where 265 00:11:30,220 --> 00:11:32,349 HOST: there are safeguarding concerns? 266 00:11:32,350 --> 00:11:34,179 ANNIE HUDSON: I mean, some of it goes back to the point we 267 00:11:34,180 --> 00:11:36,189 ANNIE HUDSON: were talking about earlier on about the 268 00:11:36,190 --> 00:11:38,279 ANNIE HUDSON: conditions of practice. So, you know, there's 269 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,359 ANNIE HUDSON: the obvious things about reasonable 270 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,269 ANNIE HUDSON: workloads. Having access to really good 271 00:11:43,270 --> 00:11:46,329 ANNIE HUDSON: supervision — and by that, I think we 272 00:11:46,330 --> 00:11:48,879 ANNIE HUDSON: mean not just that somebody is making sure 273 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,399 ANNIE HUDSON: that they've done the right things and filled 274 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:52,959 ANNIE HUDSON: out the right forms, and that sort of 275 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,719 ANNIE HUDSON: bureaucratic side of protection work is 276 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,389 ANNIE HUDSON: important, and I would never want to diminish 277 00:11:58,390 --> 00:12:01,629 ANNIE HUDSON: its significance — but it's also about having 278 00:12:01,630 --> 00:12:04,359 ANNIE HUDSON: supervision that actually enables pupils to 279 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,739 ANNIE HUDSON: really reflect on their assumptions, their 280 00:12:06,740 --> 00:12:08,778 ANNIE HUDSON: bias within. They need to, you know... 281 00:12:08,779 --> 00:12:11,899 ANNIE HUDSON: family lives can change very dramatically 282 00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:13,729 ANNIE HUDSON: and very suddenly, and [they need] to really 283 00:12:13,730 --> 00:12:16,339 ANNIE HUDSON: incorporate what's happened or a recent 284 00:12:16,340 --> 00:12:17,809 ANNIE HUDSON: change in family in terms of what does that 285 00:12:17,810 --> 00:12:20,839 ANNIE HUDSON: mean for a child. So I think that supervision 286 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,419 ANNIE HUDSON: is so, so important. 287 00:12:23,420 --> 00:12:26,269 ANNIE HUDSON: I do think that the proposal around 288 00:12:26,270 --> 00:12:28,219 ANNIE HUDSON: multi-agency child protection teams — which 289 00:12:28,220 --> 00:12:31,249 ANNIE HUDSON: of course is being tested out now through 290 00:12:31,250 --> 00:12:34,369 ANNIE HUDSON: ten pathfinder areas — which is really 291 00:12:34,370 --> 00:12:36,769 ANNIE HUDSON: about bringing together some of those 292 00:12:36,770 --> 00:12:39,559 ANNIE HUDSON: professionals and agencies so that you can 293 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:42,229 ANNIE HUDSON: have much more of a real time picture of all 294 00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:44,269 ANNIE HUDSON: the information that different professionals 295 00:12:44,270 --> 00:12:47,059 ANNIE HUDSON: will have about what's going on. 296 00:12:47,060 --> 00:12:50,479 ANNIE HUDSON: I think for me, that gives us a lot of 297 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,749 ANNIE HUDSON: optimism and hope that we can begin 298 00:12:53,750 --> 00:12:55,579 ANNIE HUDSON: to address some of the faultlines in the 299 00:12:55,580 --> 00:12:58,969 ANNIE HUDSON: system that have surfaced as these perennial 300 00:12:58,970 --> 00:13:01,909 ANNIE HUDSON: themes in very many inquiries and regularly 301 00:13:01,910 --> 00:13:03,499 ANNIE HUDSON: in local reviews. 302 00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:06,079 ANNIE HUDSON: That shift of culture and ways of working, I 303 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,779 ANNIE HUDSON: think, isn't going to be the absolute 304 00:13:08,780 --> 00:13:10,549 ANNIE HUDSON: solution because this is really, really 305 00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:14,059 ANNIE HUDSON: difficult work. And I think sometimes people 306 00:13:14,060 --> 00:13:16,729 ANNIE HUDSON: want or hope that people can look into the 307 00:13:16,730 --> 00:13:18,409 ANNIE HUDSON: crystal ball and know what's going to happen 308 00:13:18,410 --> 00:13:20,149 ANNIE HUDSON: next week with a child in the family. 309 00:13:20,150 --> 00:13:21,679 ANNIE HUDSON: Nobody can ever do that. 310 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:24,619 ANNIE HUDSON: But what we can do is understand risk and 311 00:13:24,620 --> 00:13:27,679 ANNIE HUDSON: assess risk and make the decisions the best 312 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:29,599 ANNIE HUDSON: possible decisions for a child based on the 313 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,249 ANNIE HUDSON: information that we have. 314 00:13:31,250 --> 00:13:32,809 JENNY COLES: Yeah, I don't think I've got anything more 315 00:13:32,810 --> 00:13:35,899 JENNY COLES: really to add actually, Annie, to 316 00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:37,609 JENNY COLES: that. You know, that is the core. 317 00:13:37,610 --> 00:13:39,785 JENNY COLES: And from the evidence we can see, 318 00:13:41,090 --> 00:13:44,629 JENNY COLES: bringing professionals together and indeed 319 00:13:44,630 --> 00:13:48,169 JENNY COLES: co-locating them in some of the tasks 320 00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:51,169 JENNY COLES: that are required in terms of doing good child 321 00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:53,989 JENNY COLES: protection will really encourage that. 322 00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:56,539 JENNY COLES: That was a very clear message from the Child 323 00:13:56,540 --> 00:13:58,909 JENNY COLES: Protection in England review there. 324 00:13:58,910 --> 00:14:01,309 JENNY COLES: And we can see that played out in individual 325 00:14:01,310 --> 00:14:02,599 JENNY COLES: reviews as well. 326 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,149 ANNIE HUDSON: And I think it's also probably important to 327 00:14:05,150 --> 00:14:07,219 ANNIE HUDSON: say, although we are looking through that 328 00:14:07,220 --> 00:14:09,919 ANNIE HUDSON: lens of when things have gone awfully wrong 329 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,789 ANNIE HUDSON: for children, and that's undeniable, 330 00:14:13,790 --> 00:14:16,519 ANNIE HUDSON: what we do see is some really good and strong 331 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,639 ANNIE HUDSON: practice too. Sometimes in terms 332 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,609 ANNIE HUDSON: of that, almost the primary task of child 333 00:14:22,610 --> 00:14:25,053 ANNIE HUDSON: protection — well, one of the primary tasks — 334 00:14:25,054 --> 00:14:26,959 ANNIE HUDSON: which is to understand what life is really 335 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,929 ANNIE HUDSON: like for a child and not to assume that what 336 00:14:29,930 --> 00:14:31,819 ANNIE HUDSON: a parent may say or what a professional might 337 00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:34,519 ANNIE HUDSON: think is the absolute truth, not that there 338 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,469 ANNIE HUDSON: is necessarily one truth. 339 00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:39,469 ANNIE HUDSON: But we see some really wonderful 340 00:14:39,470 --> 00:14:43,279 ANNIE HUDSON: examples of great imagination and creativity 341 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,279 ANNIE HUDSON: by professionals in finding ways to talk to 342 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,289 ANNIE HUDSON: children, to help them talk about what's 343 00:14:48,290 --> 00:14:50,749 ANNIE HUDSON: going on for them. But it's also clear that 344 00:14:50,750 --> 00:14:54,079 ANNIE HUDSON: that requires that time and space 345 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,169 ANNIE HUDSON: and ability to go on learning and developing 346 00:14:57,170 --> 00:14:59,629 ANNIE HUDSON: your skills, because children are not 347 00:14:59,630 --> 00:15:01,579 ANNIE HUDSON: immediately going to talk about the horrible 348 00:15:01,580 --> 00:15:03,919 ANNIE HUDSON: things in their lives, they will often clam 349 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,009 ANNIE HUDSON: up. And so it requires extraordinary skill 350 00:15:07,010 --> 00:15:10,039 ANNIE HUDSON: and imagination for practitioners 351 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,489 ANNIE HUDSON: to really be able to step into that child's 352 00:15:13,490 --> 00:15:16,459 ANNIE HUDSON: life, mind, experience and then to be able to 353 00:15:16,460 --> 00:15:19,699 ANNIE HUDSON: make sense of it so that the right decisions 354 00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:20,084 ANNIE HUDSON: can be made. 355 00:15:20,085 --> 00:15:22,879 JENNY COLES: I think the other area I'd like to add, and 356 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,979 JENNY COLES: what we've seen through reviews, probably in 357 00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:27,709 JENNY COLES: the last 18 months, is the inclusion of the 358 00:15:27,710 --> 00:15:29,316 JENNY COLES: whole family and particularly males; fathers, 359 00:15:30,830 --> 00:15:33,049 JENNY COLES: grandfathers and so forth. 360 00:15:33,050 --> 00:15:36,139 JENNY COLES: The Panel did a review probably about three 361 00:15:36,140 --> 00:15:39,109 JENNY COLES: years or more ago, and that's referenced 362 00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:42,469 JENNY COLES: in reviews, but we can see that actually 363 00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:45,049 JENNY COLES: the immediate and extended family are 364 00:15:45,050 --> 00:15:47,869 JENNY COLES: increasingly involved in terms of the support 365 00:15:47,870 --> 00:15:50,719 JENNY COLES: and work and contribution to protecting 366 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,779 JENNY COLES: children, which has been really, really 367 00:15:53,780 --> 00:15:55,819 JENNY COLES: good practice and good to see. 368 00:15:55,820 --> 00:15:57,379 HOST: It sounds really important that, doesn't it? 369 00:15:57,380 --> 00:15:58,639 HOST: And absolutely it should be happening. 370 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,169 HOST: And it must also be challenging for the 371 00:16:00,170 --> 00:16:02,569 HOST: practitioners, though, to be working with these wider 372 00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:05,749 HOST: families and understanding what's going 373 00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:08,929 HOST: on and who's involved and the different 374 00:16:08,930 --> 00:16:11,689 HOST: stories that they may be hearing from the different 375 00:16:11,690 --> 00:16:11,887 HOST: practitioners. 376 00:16:11,888 --> 00:16:14,360 ANNIE HUDSON: Yeah. And I think that, you know, you're 377 00:16:14,361 --> 00:16:17,389 ANNIE HUDSON: getting there to the heart of 378 00:16:17,390 --> 00:16:19,279 ANNIE HUDSON: the intrinsic challenge of protecting 379 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:20,280 ANNIE HUDSON: children. 380 00:16:21,230 --> 00:16:23,509 ANNIE HUDSON: Making sense of those different stories and 381 00:16:23,510 --> 00:16:25,159 ANNIE HUDSON: perspectives you will get from different 382 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,739 ANNIE HUDSON: family members, which, you know, going back 383 00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:30,769 ANNIE HUDSON: to that point about engaging with children so 384 00:16:30,770 --> 00:16:32,419 ANNIE HUDSON: you have a sense — harder, obviously with 385 00:16:32,420 --> 00:16:35,059 ANNIE HUDSON: non-verbal children, babies and so on — what 386 00:16:35,060 --> 00:16:37,489 ANNIE HUDSON: life is like for them. 387 00:16:37,490 --> 00:16:39,919 ANNIE HUDSON: But it just does highlight how it is such 388 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,009 ANNIE HUDSON: difficult, difficult work and how, 389 00:16:43,010 --> 00:16:46,069 ANNIE HUDSON: you know, I think it was well evidenced in 390 00:16:46,070 --> 00:16:49,099 ANNIE HUDSON: the stories about Arthur and Starr that 391 00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:52,579 ANNIE HUDSON: suddenly things can change in a family, and 392 00:16:52,580 --> 00:16:55,369 ANNIE HUDSON: how a parent is can become very different 393 00:16:55,370 --> 00:16:56,629 ANNIE HUDSON: because of those changes. 394 00:16:56,630 --> 00:16:58,909 ANNIE HUDSON: So, you know, you can't assume that how 395 00:16:58,910 --> 00:17:01,309 ANNIE HUDSON: things were six months ago is how things are 396 00:17:01,310 --> 00:17:03,049 ANNIE HUDSON: now for a child. 397 00:17:03,050 --> 00:17:05,959 ANNIE HUDSON: But that's the nature of child protection is 398 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,539 ANNIE HUDSON: that you have to, as I think, a social work 399 00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:10,759 ANNIE HUDSON: academic said, you have to think the worst of 400 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,169 ANNIE HUDSON: families and the best of families 401 00:17:12,170 --> 00:17:15,588 ANNIE HUDSON: simultaneously; and that's tough, I think. 402 00:17:15,589 --> 00:17:17,098 HOST: And it's also the... 403 00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:19,249 HOST: This goes back to the importance of information 404 00:17:19,250 --> 00:17:22,338 HOST: sharing, that a new piece of information that 405 00:17:22,339 --> 00:17:24,979 HOST: comes to light, either because something wasn't known 406 00:17:24,980 --> 00:17:28,098 HOST: before or because circumstances have changed, 407 00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:30,139 HOST: and that's why it's so important that that new 408 00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:33,589 HOST: information is then shared to put those pieces 409 00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:36,319 HOST: together again, isn't it? So that then we've got a 410 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,929 HOST: better overview of what is really going on for that 411 00:17:38,930 --> 00:17:41,929 HOST: child. So we've been having 412 00:17:41,930 --> 00:17:45,769 HOST: a really good discussion around how challenging 413 00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:48,769 HOST: and complex child protection and safeguarding is, and 414 00:17:48,770 --> 00:17:50,959 HOST: how we need to work with children and families, and 415 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,469 HOST: how agencies need to work with each other. 416 00:17:54,470 --> 00:17:56,779 HOST: So many different, important things. 417 00:17:56,780 --> 00:17:58,544 HOST: But how does the Panel work 418 00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:01,219 HOST: to influence some of these things? 419 00:18:01,220 --> 00:18:03,259 HOST: Working with government, working with other national 420 00:18:03,260 --> 00:18:06,289 HOST: agencies in order to improve what 421 00:18:06,290 --> 00:18:08,119 HOST: is happening for children on the ground in the way 422 00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:10,459 HOST: that the professionals are able to respond. 423 00:18:10,460 --> 00:18:13,669 ANNIE HUDSON: So I suppose we do that in a number of ways 424 00:18:13,670 --> 00:18:16,669 ANNIE HUDSON: in terms of the national outward look 425 00:18:16,670 --> 00:18:17,839 ANNIE HUDSON: aspect of the work. 426 00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:21,619 ANNIE HUDSON: Clearly, as you've heard today, through 427 00:18:21,620 --> 00:18:24,679 ANNIE HUDSON: national reviews we make recommendations to 428 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,589 ANNIE HUDSON: government. So the two that we've mentioned 429 00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:29,018 ANNIE HUDSON: around sexual abuse in the family involvement 430 00:18:29,019 --> 00:18:31,099 ANNIE HUDSON: make very clear recommendations to 431 00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:33,349 ANNIE HUDSON: government, and we know that they will 432 00:18:33,350 --> 00:18:36,619 ANNIE HUDSON: respond when they've 433 00:18:36,620 --> 00:18:38,299 ANNIE HUDSON: had a chance to digest and so on. 434 00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:41,029 ANNIE HUDSON: And similarly with the Child Protection in 435 00:18:41,030 --> 00:18:42,949 ANNIE HUDSON: England report there were a number of 436 00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:45,139 ANNIE HUDSON: recommendations about multi-agency child 437 00:18:45,140 --> 00:18:47,809 ANNIE HUDSON: protection teams, cross-government working, 438 00:18:47,810 --> 00:18:50,029 ANNIE HUDSON: aspects of working together which we felt 439 00:18:50,030 --> 00:18:51,829 ANNIE HUDSON: needed to change. 440 00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:54,859 ANNIE HUDSON: Again, that came through; obviously in time 441 00:18:54,860 --> 00:18:56,275 ANNIE HUDSON: there was a new Working together [to 442 00:18:56,276 --> 00:18:57,559 ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding children statutory guidance] which reflected some 443 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:58,819 ANNIE HUDSON: of those findings. 444 00:18:58,820 --> 00:19:01,999 ANNIE HUDSON: And then I suppose there's a broader 445 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,759 ANNIE HUDSON: way in which we might try and influence 446 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,879 ANNIE HUDSON: government. For example, in terms of 447 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,939 ANNIE HUDSON: improving how information sharing 448 00:19:10,940 --> 00:19:13,429 ANNIE HUDSON: operates, which may come out of the evidence 449 00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:16,369 ANNIE HUDSON: from national reviews or local reviews, but 450 00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:18,859 ANNIE HUDSON: where we're seeking to influence across 451 00:19:18,860 --> 00:19:20,970 ANNIE HUDSON: government the way in which they're thinking 452 00:19:20,971 --> 00:19:24,709 ANNIE HUDSON: — depending a bit on their priorities 453 00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:27,709 ANNIE HUDSON: at the time. One of the reviews that 454 00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:29,809 ANNIE HUDSON: we did about children with disabilities 455 00:19:29,810 --> 00:19:32,629 ANNIE HUDSON: living in residential homes, there was some 456 00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:34,729 ANNIE HUDSON: very important recommendations in there about 457 00:19:34,730 --> 00:19:35,424 ANNIE HUDSON: regulation and inspection. 458 00:19:35,425 --> 00:19:38,779 JENNY COLES: That review considered many children 459 00:19:38,780 --> 00:19:41,389 JENNY COLES: actually where they were living away from 460 00:19:41,390 --> 00:19:43,069 JENNY COLES: home, and therefore that adds to their 461 00:19:43,070 --> 00:19:46,159 JENNY COLES: vulnerability. Many of them were non-verbal 462 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,919 JENNY COLES: or at least had alternative means of 463 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:50,389 JENNY COLES: communication. 464 00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:53,719 JENNY COLES: And out of that [came] very clear 465 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,989 JENNY COLES: learning and evidence for change 466 00:19:56,990 --> 00:19:59,989 JENNY COLES: in the regulation of residential 467 00:19:59,990 --> 00:20:02,744 JENNY COLES: schools that had care and children's homes; 468 00:20:02,745 --> 00:20:06,319 JENNY COLES: refocusing of the inspection system 469 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,329 JENNY COLES: by Ofsted and the Care Quality Commission; 470 00:20:09,330 --> 00:20:12,749 JENNY COLES: and really looking at the 471 00:20:12,750 --> 00:20:15,449 JENNY COLES: regulation and the quality of the workforce 472 00:20:15,450 --> 00:20:17,519 JENNY COLES: who work in residential care. 473 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,229 JENNY COLES: So they were very clear national 474 00:20:19,230 --> 00:20:22,259 JENNY COLES: recommendations as well as advocacy for 475 00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:25,409 JENNY COLES: children with complex health needs 476 00:20:25,410 --> 00:20:28,769 JENNY COLES: and disabilities. So a real attempt, 477 00:20:28,770 --> 00:20:31,579 JENNY COLES: we hope, to change the national system and 478 00:20:31,580 --> 00:20:33,869 JENNY COLES: improve the protection of children who have to 479 00:20:33,870 --> 00:20:34,590 JENNY COLES: live away from home. 480 00:20:34,591 --> 00:20:38,249 ANNIE HUDSON: And I suppose that review in a way 481 00:20:38,250 --> 00:20:41,249 ANNIE HUDSON: encapsulates, as other reviews have done, 482 00:20:41,250 --> 00:20:43,589 ANNIE HUDSON: the role of the Panel in being very 483 00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:44,909 ANNIE HUDSON: evidence-led. 484 00:20:44,910 --> 00:20:46,859 ANNIE HUDSON: I mean, that's what is one of our mantras, 485 00:20:46,860 --> 00:20:50,009 ANNIE HUDSON: that is about looking at the evidence 486 00:20:50,010 --> 00:20:52,649 ANNIE HUDSON: and evaluating the evidence — or indeed 487 00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:53,939 ANNIE HUDSON: sometimes where there is a lack of evidence — 488 00:20:53,940 --> 00:20:56,909 ANNIE HUDSON: but speaking to that and using that to 489 00:20:56,910 --> 00:21:00,179 ANNIE HUDSON: challenge, sometimes provoke, sometimes 490 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:03,059 ANNIE HUDSON: prompt questions about practice, but also 491 00:21:03,060 --> 00:21:06,779 ANNIE HUDSON: about policy. So I suppose we sit between 492 00:21:06,780 --> 00:21:09,089 ANNIE HUDSON: looking at the granular detail and 493 00:21:09,090 --> 00:21:12,059 ANNIE HUDSON: understanding that, but also speaking 494 00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:14,909 ANNIE HUDSON: to the wider strategic conversations that are 495 00:21:14,910 --> 00:21:17,099 ANNIE HUDSON: going on. So we're one of the players in that 496 00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:20,369 ANNIE HUDSON: safeguarding national ecosystem, but working 497 00:21:20,370 --> 00:21:22,949 ANNIE HUDSON: with other organisations: the associations, 498 00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:25,469 ANNIE HUDSON: directors of Children's Services, College of 499 00:21:25,470 --> 00:21:28,679 ANNIE HUDSON: Policing, NHS England and indeed, 500 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:29,919 ANNIE HUDSON: you know, voluntary organisations, the NSPCC. 501 00:21:31,260 --> 00:21:34,379 ANNIE HUDSON: I mean we have, I think, a 502 00:21:34,380 --> 00:21:37,079 ANNIE HUDSON: developing collaboration in terms of working 503 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,479 ANNIE HUDSON: within our different and respective roles, 504 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,269 ANNIE HUDSON: but where we can kind of come together, for 505 00:21:42,270 --> 00:21:44,339 ANNIE HUDSON: example, as we're thinking about in relation 506 00:21:44,340 --> 00:21:47,219 ANNIE HUDSON: to neglect. The NSPCC has done some work on 507 00:21:47,220 --> 00:21:48,527 ANNIE HUDSON: neglect, we are doing something. 508 00:21:48,528 --> 00:21:52,049 ANNIE HUDSON: So using that, creating 509 00:21:52,050 --> 00:21:55,109 ANNIE HUDSON: coalitions where coming together can 510 00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:57,509 ANNIE HUDSON: create the potential for greater influence 511 00:21:57,510 --> 00:22:01,029 ANNIE HUDSON: and impact in the longer term on children. 512 00:22:01,030 --> 00:22:02,699 ANNIE HUDSON: And that's what we're all here to do, isn't 513 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:03,059 ANNIE HUDSON: it? 514 00:22:03,060 --> 00:22:05,199 JENNY COLES: And that review we've just been talking about 515 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,319 JENNY COLES: was done in collaboration with the Council for 516 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,569 JENNY COLES: Disabled Children and the National Children's 517 00:22:09,570 --> 00:22:10,019 JENNY COLES: Bureau. 518 00:22:10,020 --> 00:22:12,720 HOST: Lovely. That feels like a really perfect place to end 519 00:22:12,721 --> 00:22:14,549 HOST: the podcast today. 520 00:22:14,550 --> 00:22:17,549 HOST: Thank you very much for your time, both 521 00:22:17,550 --> 00:22:19,019 HOST: of you. I think that's been a really interesting 522 00:22:19,020 --> 00:22:22,109 HOST: discussion. For our listeners, you can read both 523 00:22:22,110 --> 00:22:25,499 HOST: the reports we've talked about today on the GOV.UK 524 00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:28,349 HOST: website, and we'll put the links to the reports in 525 00:22:28,350 --> 00:22:29,350 HOST: the podcast shownotes. 526 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:32,879 HOST: There's lots more information about case reviews on 527 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,969 HOST: the NSPCC Learning website as well. 528 00:22:35,970 --> 00:22:39,029 HOST: But no, thank you very much both for your time. 529 00:22:39,030 --> 00:22:39,689 JENNY COLES: Thank you. 530 00:22:39,690 --> 00:22:40,690 ANNIE HUDSON: Thank you. 531 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,819 OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning Podcast. 532 00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:50,699 OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was 533 00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:53,339 OUTRO: up-to-date, but the world of safeguarding and child 534 00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:54,340 OUTRO: protection is ever-changing. 535 00:22:55,410 --> 00:22:57,509 OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current 536 00:22:57,510 --> 00:23:00,239 OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training, 537 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,209 OUTRO: information or resources, please visit 538 00:23:03,210 --> 00:23:04,512 OUTRO: our website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.