Shelley Alward-MacLeod
You're listening to Within Our Reach, a podcast by reachAbility Association that focuses on accessibility, inclusion and leveling the playing field at work and in your community. My name is Shelley Alward-MacLeod and my cohost is Blake Hunsley. And today we're joined by reachAbility’s Pre-Employment Support Navigator, Markus Fortune. In today's episode we'll be focusing our conversation around an article entitled Discovering Your Authentic Leadership by Bill George, Peter Sims, Andrew N. McLean and Diana Mayer, which appeared in the February 2007 edition of Harvard Business Review. A link to the article will be included in the show notes. Enjoy the episode.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
Today, I'm one of the hosts, Shelley Alward-McLeod, and I'm here with

Blake Hunsley
another one of the hosts, Blake Hunsley, and we're here with someone who's not a host, but a very special guest. Why don't you introduce yourself?

Markus Fortune
Markus Fortune, I work here at reachAbility. I'm a facilitator, first and foremost, and I do a lot of other things here, but firstly, I am a facilitator, and

Blake Hunsley
we should tell people what you facilitate too, because I think your course is pretty germane to the topic that we're talking about today. So

Markus Fortune
I facilitate the One Step Closer program. It's a program where we cover interpersonal skills, like confidence, self care, goal setting, all of that stuff, anything to help people get ready for work and feel ready to work. Perfect.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
Well, I think that certainly ties into today. We're talking about authentic leadership. And we were, it came from reviewing an article which was from almost 20 years ago, which is hard to hard to believe about that Harvard Business Review put out called discovering your authentic leadership. And it was, you know, discussing that, you know, the differences between an authentic leader versus an inauthentic leader. And before we started the podcast, we were all just saying that, I don't think it really matters that it's was 20 years old, because we've all had that leader who was inauthentic versus authentic.

Blake Hunsley
The challenges are the same. But it is interesting because this the premise was that we needed a new kind of leader for the 21st century. So, you know, 24 years in now we can look and say, okay, exactly is this? What is this? What we needed is authenticity. The key

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
absolutely so when you think, when you when you've had a chance to review the article, Markus, what do you what you know? What do you think makes an authentic leader for you? Like? What do you see as

Markus Fortune
well? First and foremost, I was surprised to have this article to begin with, mainly because I never really saw myself as a leader, so to speak, not necessarily a negative way. But I always just didn't see myself necessarily as a follower, either, but someone who just goes around doing their own thing in the workplace, you know, getting the job done, of course. But when recently, actually, I was in a situation with a co worker where we were kind of hashing out some problems, and I kind of had a moment where I kind of just spaced out and said to myself, I'm leading right now. And it was kind of exciting. It was a little scary as well, because that was a new feeling for me. So then I returned to the article. I quite honestly hadn't finished reading it yet, but then that kind of drove me to read more of the article and really delve into it. I was about halfway done before I went back to it, but I loved the article. Lot of interesting parts the there was one section where, if I remember me correctly, where the author said that leadership is not necessarily a skill, which I wanted to call out to them, but at the same time, I wanted to hear them out on their side of it, right? Because I always heard and maybe you you as well. Shelley and Blake, leadership skills is a word that's top tossed around a lot, where, you know, oh, you need leadership skills. And then reading the article and hearing their point of view from it, I never heard of what these leadership skills are, and that really made me want to read more of the article. It was, ended up being very fascinating piece for me to read, right?

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
So that's an interesting point about, you know, our leadership skills learned. Okay, exactly. So what's your take on that now?

Markus Fortune
And I was thinking about that specifically on my way in, and what it means to be a good leader, and thinking about who I've seen throughout my life, not very long. I'm only 30, but where I used to work, where I'm working now, with reachAbility. And what I think, to me, is a good leader. If I can work with the leader and I can learn from them, they're a good leader to me, right? If one of them is missing, something needs to be looked at with the leadership. But, and I was thinking here, you know, with the leadership, here at reachAbility, I can learn from my leaders. I can work with my leaders. And then I saw myself as a leader right for new staff and current staff as well. So I liked where I landed with that nice

Blake Hunsley
I think one of the healthiest qualities to have as a leader is one that that you're showing right now is not not to necessarily think of yourself as a natural leader. I find someone who thinks of themselves as a natural leader and talks that aspect of their personality up to any extent, is often among the worst people on the team to have lead. But it's very funny to me, you don't see or didn't see yourself. As a leader, because you have taken over the curriculum for every department. You have become a mentor for new staff coming in to me, you're you have extremely high leadership skills, at a glance, as I would see it, so I think that's probably one of the healthier aspects of your leadership style, is that you don't consider yourself necessarily the natural choice to be at the head. Yes,

Markus Fortune
and I'm glad you brought that up. The whole idea of a natural leader, and how that kind of seems like a wolf in sheep's wool. And I've heard even increasingly in the past few years, there's like, people are saying, Markus, we're a leader. It's there. And I'm like, always pushing back and saying, No, I'm not. Don't put me on that pedestal. That's how I always saw it, a pedestal. But you know, the more I think about it, now, it's more of equal, like you can work with a leader on the same level and be considered the same people, you know, but still know that where that line lands with leadership. And the more I'm hearing it, you are a leader, you have those qualities. It comes down to imposter syndrome, right? I

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
agree. I think everybody has the ability to be a leader. Everybody leads at certain things, right? And we draw towards our net, everybody, you know, and leader, okay? Leading Okay, versus being somebody's manager or supervisor can be two very different things, and we often, you know, misconstrue the names, right? And we talk about, you know, leadership in an organization, and we always tend to think of it as the people way up at the top, but leadership in an organization can be demonstrated by everybody. And some of the things that I've, I've learned, like to your point, in my life, have come from lessons of people who weren't in leadership positions, maybe their style, on some communication style, or their organizational skill I picked up right like, and so we are, we're all always leading from the time we're little, right and, and then I think, you know, there, there probably are, you know, people who then take those leader skills and manifest themselves into wanting to be more of a managerial role. But, yeah, I when you said I didn't see yourself as a leader, I was like Blake. I was the same thing, but because you're leading the process of and sometimes it's not people, you're leading the process of course, curriculum, you know, this, this curriculum needs to be upgraded, modified, you know, it's kind of taking the lead on, on, on that. Yeah,

Blake Hunsley
I think both of you that the recognition of leadership at all levels like we're talking about has changed. Because I think traditionally, you're right. We have thought about people in, you know, the CEO, the VP, that sort of thing is you are a formal leader. I really think, in my experience in the workplace since this article was written, so we'll say, in the last 20 years, I've seen much more recognition of the leadership that you get from people on the same level, or people even from a more entry level to you. Exactly.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
Yeah, I think, I think, I think that has changed. Like, the term leader means something very, very different. Like, you know, society is still hierarchical, okay, yeah, but I think in more organizations, they're more team based and more team focused, right? So people are working on little projects together, where people sometimes their natural leadership abilities strike one, not because you're a born leader, but because the topic that we're talking about is your expertise or your passion, right? Like somebody wants to talk about organizational skills, okay, I might not be able to lead a group of people, but I can make anybody okay, you know, toe the line on organizational skills, because that's a forte of mine. Like, I'm very pedantic about how I like things, right? But if it was like, you know, I'm going to lead a project group on how to run a marathon, well, you're all going to fail, because we're going to be eating donuts. So, yeah, so I think very much so, like using that term leader and bringing out that quality is something that you know has changed over Yeah, over the years. What do you think you're in a certainly a different generation, because people can't see us, thankfully. So we're all very young and attractive. I know are listening to my voice saying, Oh, that 20 some year old that's hosting with with Blake, and that's what I want them to keep things keep thinking, Blake,

Blake Hunsley
that high school kid? Yeah, exactly. I'm the oldest in the room.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
Great. Let's go with that. Sure. Why not so? So let's kind of, let's turn back a bit like, to the article and talking about authentic, right? So when you. Think about the term authentic. What does that mean to you?

Markus Fortune
Authentic is a word I have definitely always considered, you know, when even entering, not even a new workplace, because this is the third paying job I've had in my life, I usually like to stick around. But with authentic leadership. I think of it as being genuine as well, authentic to me for a leadership role, for example. So I'll give you two examples that I can think of now, one for myself being in the classroom, facilitating one step closer. I remember the day where I realized, wow, I'm in charge of this room. I am leading this class, even though I always have been this was actually just this past January, a client had said something, and it was a question that, you know, they wanted answer. And then I felt all eyes on me. Every eye turned to me in the room, and it was terrifying.

Blake Hunsley
What's the responsibility you feel in that in that situation,

Markus Fortune
to give them the right answer, the answer they're looking for, and just trying my best to give them the answer they're looking for, the one answer they want, uh, answered. And I did, you know answer the question. And I now I have the habit of whenever the question is asked and I answer it, I ensure that I ask the client if that is the answer they were looking for, and if not, then we talk about it more. I liked that. I like that feeling. And those moments have happened in every group sense, where someone asks a question or makes a comment about something, and then all eyes on me, and each time it is, quite honestly terrifying each time it happens, but I know the process of going through it, and, you know, leading my group that way, and it's a good feeling knowing that they not only are looking to me, but that shows to me that they trust me, yes, that you know, we're looking at Markus for an answer, and whatever answer he is going to give is going to help guide us. And that still scares the living daylights out of me, but I'm learning to embrace more of that, to get rid of that imposter syndrome. More of you know, a leadership role above me for authentic leadership, for that specifically authentic leadership looks like to me. Whatever a leader is telling me, they're telling everyone else the same thing. They both match. You know, at any point, if a leader, be that a CEO or supervisor, what have you I think the minute I have a meeting with them, and they leave and the message becomes different, that is an issue with their leadership, to me, correct.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
So, so I really like that. I like that you started with, like, authentic, like, genuine, right? And I think very much so Right. Like, people need to be sure. You need to be yourself, right? And if you've got to fake it, you know to to manage people, right? Like, like, I know you said I want to be okay with you know, that's a big responsibility. People are looking to me for the answer. You know, some will come. Some of that, I would like to say will come, like, with experience, right? When it's okay to stand in front of a room like, people pay me okay for my advice, yes, right? And I don't know everything, right? And I'm okay to say now, when I was 20, I wasn't okay, because it seemed like a sign of weakness, like, if I you know, you said that you have to be okay, right? And I think that's also genuine. I can be professional, but I'm still me, right? And that's sort of a line I won't cross. And I've said to many people, oh, well, that's a very interesting you know, I've had people say to me, oh Shelley, you must have heard everything. I still alive, so I've never heard everything. And I'll often say to people, oh my gosh. Well, I haven't heard that one before. Oh, gee, I'm not even sure. Let's think about this. Let's dissect this out. And then I feel that also gives them a level of comfort, because then they're hearing you, right? But genuine to me is the real article. Yes, right. It's the real authenticism. And before we started the podcast, Markus, you had walked in when, when Blake and I were talking about authentic leader and and Blake, you want to talk about like you had a leader that was authentic, but not maybe in the way that we're thinking of it as kind so that's

Blake Hunsley
true, because we're talking about authentic as in, you know, you say the same thing to every. Everybody, but you also, I think for me, a big part of it is that the leader believes what they're saying themselves as well. That's that really speaks to authenticity to me. But unfortunately, sometimes the things that that leader believes and says and acts upon in a very authentic way are terrible things. So,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
and my comment to you was, okay, okay, okay, I can deal. I can deal with that, right? Like you tell me, you know exactly I hate this, I like this. I don't like this. I'm not going to do this, and as long as you're applying that, you know, consistently and authentically to everybody, okay? Because then that allows me to decide, are we gonna work together or not? Right? Like, there's not gonna be any surprises, like and, and for me, that's also a bit about what authentic leadership should be. Like, I should know, okay, what to expect from you. And, like, I really liked how you said that Markus, that you're gonna apply the same story, if you will, to everybody else, like you're not going to tell me one thing and go out here and then tell them a different story. So it's that consistency, absolutely, I like, I like, that.

Blake Hunsley
It's truly, it's funny. I think about some of the some of the leaders that I've worked with that have been very genuine and very authentic, and let's be honest, you're terrible people, in my opinion. And I would still choose that any day of the week than somebody who is somebody who's quietly being a hypocrite, or someone who I can tell just from watching them and then comparing to hearing to the things that come out of their mouth that they don't believe a word that they're saying, Yeah, because you're right, at least you know how to deal and how to respond to that person. You know it's even if they're awful that they really mean it and they stand by it, and you're never going to question where you stand with them. It's

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
true, and I think that that to me, I I can deal okay with the truth, right? I can't deal with the unknown, right? Like I can't deal with because then I'm always wondering, right? Yes, you know, even if you don't know the answer, tell me I don't know the answer. Okay, when we'll find we can have more dialog about that. But you know, don't a lie to me, right? And don't be so fake, yeah, right. Like, you know, the the I always liken it to this, and I use this example sometimes, like in training that, that I'm doing, where everybody wants to, you know, be so agreeable, right? I'm a big believer that healthy debate, like I can disagree with you on anything, and we can still be friends, right? And I liken it to the person that you take shopping with you, right? You're going clothes shopping, right? And you have that friend that you come out in that most god awful outfit, and the friend is like, oh my gosh, you look gorgeous when even you know, okay, you're like, the friend

Blake Hunsley
you have to tell, like, there is a mirror here. I can see me too. I

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
mean, you could practically see the sales clerk in the background, like, vomiting, right? Like, you know, it's that bad, right? And I'm like, that's not the that person's not authentic. They're just telling you, but you want to hear what you want to hear, and that. And maybe it may, maybe I'm cynical, right? But then that makes me believe, what else is that person telling me that I

Blake Hunsley
want that's not simple, that's self preservation, right? Like that I want to hear

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
like I have, you know, like a very small circle of what I believe are my authentic friends, like, we can call each other for anything. You know, there's one friend, okay, who I would absolutely take shopping, yeah right. And she'd be like, you open the door. She's like,

Unknown Speaker
nope,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
take that away. Yeah right. Or she'll see me pulling something off the rack, and she'll like, no, yeah right, right. I might be offended. It might be my most favorite thing, or whatever, but I don't want to be like her saying, oh my gosh, you're gorgeous when you know, my glasses are like, you know, hanging like, off the side of my face. So I I carry that through to like, my whole life. Like, I want to work with people that are authentic, right? I don't have to like your style, be consistent about it, yes,

Markus Fortune
right? I've actually, when you said, you know, being okay with what I grabbed from that about you know the unknown, and wanting to know what you know, what we know. I this week, word for word. Told a client this week I was meeting with for some like outside support. I remember saying to them, can't remember of the context, but I am become very okay with saying I don't know, but then putting in the effort to learn Correct.

Blake Hunsley
There's nothing more comfort comforting to me than when an expert says, I don't. Know, but I will get back to you. I will respect that far more any day than someone who tries to make it up on the slide. Yeah, I don't. You can always tell, no matter how deep the knowledge base is, when someone's pulling it out of their

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
I believe them to be more a genuine, more authentic when they say, I don't know. But, my goodness, I'm gonna look that up, yeah, or, or they'll say, I don't know. I've never read that book before. I don't know I haven't seen it. It's okay to say I haven't seen that video, or I haven't I, I'm not aware of what you're referencing, right? Right? Because no human being knows everything, no. And right away, I don't look at that person and go, Oh, you don't know, like, you know that's not my go my go to is okay, I'm talking to somebody who is genuine. We're going to be able to have a good conversation, and

Blake Hunsley
somebody who's curious, because you can tell they're immediately excited to find an answer for you, because it's their topic. They want to know as much as possible, right?

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
And it's often why. Now here, fast forward to 2024, with, you know, back in 2006 I think when the article was written, we, you know, we were maybe, you know, starting to talk about leaders, and starting to talk some about Diversity Equity and Inclusion. Now we're very much talking about that. And some of the words that we're hearing with diversity inclusion equity are being authentic. And coming with being authentic is being curious, authentically curious, right? As opposed to nosy and mean, yes, right? I think this

Blake Hunsley
is a problem. People don't understand the difference between the two. I think you have a lot of authentically curious people out there who are too afraid to be they think they're going to be rude by asking somebody something that maybe you know. If you're an absolute stranger, it could be a little too much to ask them. But if you're if you're a work colleague, and you've been working for a couple of months, and you're genuinely curious about why this person does this thing the way that they do, you should be comfortable. You should be comfortable enough to find a way to ask them that. Because if they are a genuine, authentic person, they're going to they're going to give you a fair answer, even if that fair answer is, you know, honestly, that's none of your business. That's a fair answer and a genuine response. I'll take that exactly.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
I remember this time when a person told me, Oh, I have I'm not able to see very well. I have macular degeneration, and at the time, I had no idea what that was, and I said, Oh, I've never heard of that before. And I didn't go, Oh my gosh. Like, oh, you're blind. Oh, you can't see. Instead, I was like, Oh, I've never heard about that before. Help me understand, like, what? Like, what does that mean? Well, you know, my and then that got into a whole conversation, and that was the beginning for me of understanding that people can be legally blind and not and still actually see things like in my head. And this is ignorance, okay, due to lack of knowledge, not due to the fact that I was being mean and malicious, but the fact that I didn't know the difference? I just assumed when someone said they were blind, that literally, they could see nothing like it was a black Yeah, right. And so that was my so that was like, Oh, that made me more curious. And because of that experience with that person who was willing to expand, that allowed me to be more curious about other things. Now, when people tell me something, or, I mean, I don't walk up to a stranger on the street, like, you know, in a wheelchair, it's like, oh, so why are you in that wheelchair? Like, I mean that to me, even though I could say it in the nicest way, who the heck are you? Like, keep on walking lady, right? But like, Absolutely, I have clients who I see something that's not the same as me. And once we build a bit of rapport, I'll ask them, right? And usually, if you build enough rapport, something about their culture or whatever comes out, and then you can grab onto that and ask a curious question. And it it's how I've become educated. Yeah, on the on that right like to be authentically curious versus rude and healthy?

Blake Hunsley
Yeah, I have a question about authenticity, because I took a very different read on this article, which we discussed in private before, before recording today, I got a little on my soapbox and was a little a little outrage, to

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
be fair, when am I not most of the time? Okay, the difference, for those of you that have you know been listening to our podcasts, Blake enjoys the soapbox,

Blake Hunsley
I am authentically riled up. Okay, there's no foaming there's no phoning in my ear. Great, no. But my question is, is there a danger in overvaluing authenticity? And I'm thinking particularly about political leadership, because I think a lot of us have gotten cynical, myself included, because you do have politicians who will give you the pat answer, the scripted response. It's all very canned. It's all it's all very unbelievable. It's all very just theatrical sometimes, in my experience. But then you have someone appear on the other side who is authentic and and, you know, they speak plain truth, and people really buy into that because they're so tired of getting the canned response. But oftentimes that response, while authentic, is terrifying and not something that most people, I think, would really want. So I guess, is the danger there that there's a bigger danger to being inauthentic, or is there a danger that we're just overvaluing authenticity over you know, I guess moral leadership or professionalism or accountability? Yeah,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
well, I love the fact that you used the use politicians.

Blake Hunsley
We all know what I'm alluding to, probably about three or four different things in this country. And the one below,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
like, I mean, what's that saying? You know, the devil, you know, is better than the devil you don't, right? So, so the authentic leader who's telling you something that you know taxes are going to go up by this and you believe it, and it's they're authentic, okay? You might not like it, but now you know exactly what's going to happen. Okay? Versus the one who's telling you what you want to hear. Remember the not genuine, right? And then four seconds into their term, okay, they realize that a they don't have the money. Now they're going to tell it. They're going to put a spin,

Blake Hunsley
yeah, on that which they always seem to suddenly realize they definitely didn't know before they took the exactly,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
I don't know. My take is I would rather have an authentic I'd rather have an authentic leader, even if I didn't like your style, but you were consistent about it, because then I could work with that. I know. I know what lines I can cross the boundaries would be very clear, right? And then also, I'm still in control, right? Because if I don't like it, I can look for something else, like if we're talking about the workplace, right? Yeah, so I think I'd rather that than the being on pins and needles all the time, right? And thinking, I'm doing a good job, willing to find it today, you've changed your mind. Today the flavor of the month is vanilla, yeah? And I was thinking it was chocolate, yeah, right. Like that to me, that would send that makes my eyeball tick. People know when my eyeball starts to do that is not a good thing. Like that would mean my eyeball tick much more than you tell me x even though I think it's the most ridiculous thing, at least I know, yeah, we're going ridiculous today. Yeah, and I can either get on board or not if it's if it I say this, and I said this in other you know, when we were doing video series as well, is not every job is for everybody, right? Right person, right place, right time, right? The person you know, when you're inter, when you're interviewing to go work for a company, right? It might be very clear to you during the interview process that that is not a company I need to work for, right?

Markus Fortune
Yes, I was very fascinated to see the first question, and also wanted me to get on a bit of a soapbox as well. By

Blake Hunsley
all means, I can take a break,

Markus Fortune
because I looked at it from the lens of my education. You know, I have a Bachelor of Arts degree in sociology. I like to think I'm using it, but when I saw that question, I was like, I feel that there is possibly a very large difference between authentic leadership and political leadership, mainly because if you combine the two, I feel they don't exist authentic political leadership, correct? And that's, of course, my view on it. Argue about it. I would welcome the argument, as long as it's constructive. But what I'm seeing, especially these days, is the lack of authentic political leadership right now. It just seems to be inauthentic. You know, there's always the idea of, you know, pockets being lined, you know, catering to a certain member, members of society. You know, it seems to be more of a social power game than leadership the way it's was maybe pitched many, many years ago. I'm talking like the birth of Canada and the birth of the United States specifically, because I'm sure it was delivered in that way where it's like a voice for all, but it certainly has become a voice for all. But for those who matter really, and it's it's hard for us to get away from that. Because it doesn't matter what an authentic political leader would do, someone is going to suffer. Yes, it does not matter. I

Blake Hunsley
guess my big fear is that the way I see things these days is I seem to get more of an authentic vibe from the more populist approach that you hear out there in politics, they're telling people that the systems are broken. They're the ones admitting that the systems are broken when the rest of us can see on the ground that many of them are in shambles. Yes, and then you have more traditional politicians trying to say, No, things are you know, we're fixing things. And there's some dents and dings here and there. But the system isn't broken. Look bloody around. Good heavens. So I really do. I really do have fears about authenticity being the name of the game, because I see the appeal. I really do. And I'm with you, Shelley, I would much I've had politicians lie to my face to get my vote, which I believe the fact that we don't have there, that we still have first past the post is not something that should be happening after one of the things that was said to my face by certain politicians, but that's fine. I lose respect for inauthentic, for inauthentic politicians so fast. But the authentic, the most authentic ones that I see out there really telling it like it is, to use their phrase, they really scare me, because I can see the appeal of being told this is what I actually believe and want to do, even when all the things that they believe and want to do are things that I would never want to see done well,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
and I agree, I think, and I think that I think it is, we're going to start to See some change because society go back and that, you know, years, okay, maybe even before some of you were born, but

Blake Hunsley
me, because I'm in high school, correct,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
in politics or in sales, right? People flowered everything up, okay, okay, because they were selling you something, right? In the 80s, leadership styles, right? The person who could sell the best, yes, always be closing, right? And everything had to be upbeat and positive, okay? And then we would be annoyed four seconds into that person's tenure, okay, that's no secret. Like, then we'd be like, What the heck? That's not what you promised. And now we're at, you know, head butting all the time when I think society is starting to get tired of that, right? And while society doesn't want somebody standing up telling us, you know, all kinds of negative stuff, right, I think there's gonna start to be more of a if you had a politician, okay, that stood up and said, you know, everything's broken, right? I can't promise you that I'm gonna fix healthcare in two minutes, or, you know, education in two minutes. I know they need to be fixed, right? But I don't even know where to start, okay, but what you can't what you will get from me, okay, is the uncovering of all of that Okay, and what the real deal is, and how we're going to get there, what it's going to cost us, right? I think that's what people even though we say we don't we want the flowery because, again, we're humans. We most of us still glom onto that hope, yeah, right, yeah. And we have to, we have to move away from that to realism, right? And I think, you know, as the generations are changing, right, we're wanting more of that. We're asking for more of that authentic, right? Right? So it

Blake Hunsley
sounds like the danger is really that inauthenticity has gone on in leadership, and not just politics, business, all spheres of society, right? For so long that we don't trust, yeah, we've gotten used to the the kind of commercial, advertising appeal sort of thing.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
What do you say about salesmen? Like they have a bad rap. Oh yeah, sales, sales person, oh, some telemarketer call, like, whatever they they could have changed their whole process and they're going to be authentic, right? And say, Oh well, you're with XYZ telephone company. Oh yeah, then there's no need for you to change. Yeah, I can't beat that deal. I can't write, like, but I never let them talk long enough, because I've already hit the disconnect button. But yes, I think that the danger really is that we've had so much in authenticity, right? That, you know, go back years like to, you know, in workplaces unions, right? Why they had such a strong play is because, you know, leaders were not authentic, and unions were catching them up in their lies, if you will. Let's call it what it is, and then they were running with that. Well, great. You've told us you're going to give us this. How could we believe that? Right? We need to see everything we believe nothing, right? And that's kind of what's happened, right? Because you've told. Us, all these things are going to happen and in politics and what actually has happened, right? And any good spinner can say, whoa. Well, we did these three things. Wonderful. Thank you.

Blake Hunsley
Spin being the absolute enemy of authenticity, just while we're on. Oh, my God yes,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
right? So, I mean, so I think it's not just in politics, it's in the in sales, it's the whole thing we're spinning because we're marketing, yes, all of these things, as opposed to the authentic. Imagine if you walked onto a car lot, right? Like, because that's an easy example, right?

Blake Hunsley
And the most maligned, too. So, right?

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
So you walk onto a car lot, and you know, the guy sees the car that you drive in. Or, although my husband loves to drive in, he loves to drive in in the in the car that he's not going to be trading, right? But anyway, you you drive in, right? And wouldn't you love for the guy to ask, so what is it you're looking for, right? And then you tell him, you say, I don't, you're not going to get that for your in your budget. Or, you know, like, I don't, I don't think you're going to get a better car than what you have now. Like, I'm not going to be able to beat that deal. Like, it knows, oh, you know, I've got something for you. Like, I can put you in anything. I can make anything work for you, only to find out after you've got all things that you didn't make it work. It cost more than I said. You're way outside of my budget. Now what do I do? Yeah,

Blake Hunsley
I wonder if we've brought it into our personal life a little bit too, because we talk now all the time, now that we're all on social media, and everybody has awful side gigs and side hustles and things, it's all about your personal brand, and we've brought a bit of that I hate, let's just say gross, because this is what we brought a bit of that gross element into our personal life, which makes us all a little less authentic, too. What a horrifying thought

Markus Fortune
where we're putting, like, spins on things. We're putting spin on our everyday activities that people want to see. Yeah, and when we put that, that word spin on things. It's almost like, okay, let's put a spin on this. That, to me, says, let's give them an excuse for our not so good leadership. Yeah,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
well, and let me just say, on social media, the spin also trying to put ourselves in the best light when you have social media programs putting out a filter, okay? So you can remove all your blemishes and make yourself look like, you know, like who you aren't, okay? What's that also saying to society that like, you know, like, I can't, I couldn't deal with your real photo.

Blake Hunsley
The number of meetings that I've had Shelley, where I get a nice little digital invitation and the photo is amazing. They are the most model esque person you've ever seen. And then you meet this person in person for the meeting, you would never recognize them, right? And what kind of a first impression is that? So you knew I was going to see your authentic self, and you still presented this to me first. What is my takeaway supposed to be from that? Of course, I'm a bit distrustful immediately, exactly

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
so. So I think this all ties into this whole like I don't. And if you were to ask any of those people, okay, they aren't going to say, well, of course, I was being inauthentic, because nobody had they're trying to sell. They're working with what they have to try to put their best foot forward, when, in fact, they're not really being true to themselves. They're not really being authentic, right? So, yeah, I think that there, there's a there's a danger to that. And you know, some people might say, well, you know, some of those people have succeeded very well in in life, have they

Blake Hunsley
or is it just their presentation? Yeah, right,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
yeah, and, and, and how much are they respected, right? I mean, I guess it goes to this. I would rather be respected right for the work that I do and my job and who I am, right? And only have six followers, right, versus, okay, being inauthentic with my duck lips. And, you know, having, you know, 1 million followers, yeah, of which couldn't even spell my name correctly. Yeah, right. Like, so I, I think we're going to come, you know, I'd like to see, you know, some, some of that, you know, switch, switch over. It's going to take time.

Blake Hunsley
I think it is changing. It's funny, I was being quite, quite depressing about thinking that we've brought some of the marketing elements into our personal life. But in my personal experience, in my work life, I've seen much more authentic leadership as I progress through and as the as the people at the top have changed. Yes, I mean, we may make jokes about our fearless leader here, because she can be quite colorful and interesting, but you know exactly what you're getting and what you're hearing is exactly what she truly. Believes, and that's so much easier to deal

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
with. And I think that we are slowly coming to that. And I think, you know, I know you love when I go back to politics, because that's your chance to get mad. That's your total soapbox. But I think that is a really great example that you had given, and I believe that look at how across our country, right? People who were like, and I don't want to get into whether you know you who will

Blake Hunsley
leave all the labels off, yeah, but like,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
one part of a region, okay, or one part of a province, okay, was very much, you know, this leadership brand, okay, for years, and it didn't matter if they liked the person, that's just who they were. That's how you voted, that's how you always voted. But now we've started to see people switching back and forth, okay? Like there's not this allegiance to being, you know, liberal or PC or whatever, there's more, more, more now starting to listen to what's the person saying. So, so eventually, right? We're gonna get tired of the person that keeps telling us stuff that's not authentic, and we're gonna go to, you know, tuxedo, the cat.

Blake Hunsley
I wish we could learn this lesson on the non populist side, but I guess it's a little harder than telling getting out there and telling people Yes, I will do everything you want and I will do it, even if it's a bad idea. I would, but I personally, I would find great appeal in someone getting out there and saying, we're not going to do that. We can't afford it, and it would break the country

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
even more right? And I think, yes, maybe this next election. We're not quite ready for that, but what we need is that, and because eventually we'll be like, you know, what? If we'd have gone with, you know, Blake's, you know, take, we at least would have known where we stood, yeah, yeah, exactly. Because now I bought into this flavor over here, and that is not anywhere close to what I got. Yeah,

Blake Hunsley
yep, so,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
but it'll take a hole. Yeah, it's gonna take some doing. Because I think, at the end of the day, I think we do really we, most of us, would appreciate authenticity, because when you really drill down to even the people who say they don't like confrontation and, you know, oh, I don't want to hurt somebody's feelings or whatever. If you, you know, if you said something, so would you prefer that I just lied to you all the time? Yeah. I mean, the majority of people are going to be like, Well, no, yeah, right. So I think authenticism is where we should be,

Blake Hunsley
even if it's not necessarily want to hear. Yeah. Okay, all right. So message for politicians out there who are listening to our podcast, because we've had a couple of them on at this point, so some of them may be listeners too many don't want to never come back. I'm not coming back on your podcast. It's a terrible time You yelled at me. Okay, well, thank you for being honest Exactly. Markus, did you have anything you wanted to add about the necessity of authenticity, particularly in your program? Because where you're working with you're really dealing with a lot of emotional stuff, there must be, I don't think you could do your job if you weren't completely authentic with the people in

Markus Fortune
your yes, it, it has to be there. It can't be one thing than the other, you know, it can't be mixed messages. It has to be one thing and only that thing. You know, I have to be very I'm always straightforward with my clients. I'm always, you know, giving them the information they need. I'm not in any way telling them anything that or not in any way like lying to them, telling what they want to hear. Yeah, you know, sometimes it is, you know, not presented as a harsh reality. But also I can, I can do that kind of thing where it's like, this is how the world is, yeah, let's work around what we're currently struggling with, you know, not only with, you know how things are in politics, but everything out in the world, you know, I meet clients all the time who, you know, they're mad at the world for any kind of reason, and their reasons for it totally understandable. And a lot of the time I'm having the same issues. So it's so important for me to be that level of genuine, the authentic where I am, meeting them, where they are, and having that level of empathy in as well. You know, I think that's a huge part of leadership. You know, the more we're talking, the more I'm seeing a lot of different elements of leadership. You know, there's empathy involved, a level of self confidence as well. That's also huge.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
It's so true, I think, like in the in the course that you know that that you're doing, especially like in the One Step Closer, and I've had people say to me, like in in coaching sessions, because I. You're trying to tell them how the world is working, like the harsher reality that I've had, I've had people say to me, so basically telling Shelley, you're telling me I have to change my entire personality. And I'm like, No, I'm not. Actually, I want you to be you. But what you need to understand is, in this world, if you're if your style is to yell and scream at everybody, okay, you need to actually think, how does that correlate to you doing business? How do you How successful do you think you're going to be working for an employer, right? Like, is the right job for you? Then working under somebody? Or should you maybe work for yourself? How well will you work with customers if you're going to yell at them when you think they're wrong? Like, you know? Like, like, I'm you need to temper your right? Because I I'll say to people, people will say to me, oh, but customers are and I was like, You're right. I'm sure they absolutely like empathy. Yeah, I agree. I agree with you. But guess what, if I acted like that, what do you think the repercussions are exactly? Yeah, so, and that's authentic, yeah, right. And I like that, that you're, you have empathy. It's okay to agree with them how you're feeling. Yeah, I feel like that too, but if I acted like that every day or acted on it, yeah, what would the repercussions be?

Markus Fortune
And even a certain level with, you know, you know, authentic empathy, if we could even go there. You know, I've met with clients who, you know, they're angry at the world, and it's like coming out in that negative way. And as soon as I sit down with them, it's, I don't no longer see it as a way. I called them out. It's almost like they have a moment of like shit. Someone's actually listening to me. Let's, let's listen to each other. And then and always after that conversation, things are always better.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
They are most times, people are being belligerent. People are being negative Nancy or negative Ned, yeah, because nobody's really listening to them, right? And it's why I don't usually tell people how to do things like you notice how I phrase that. So imagine if you acted like that. What do you think the repercussions would be? And then, oh, okay, right. So yeah, I agree, right? So if we're

Blake Hunsley
going to agree, then that authenticity is not the problem which it sounds like. It's not. It's more the inauthenticity we've been dealing with for so long and our expectations that have formed around that. I'd be curious as a wrap up, what you think would be the next most important quality to pair with that, because based on what you just said, I think empathy has to be we talk about empathy and emotionally intelligent leadership around here until we're blue in the face. But I think it really is that important. I think if you're an authentic leader and you don't have a sense of empathy, that's where we get into a lot of trouble. Yeah. So that would be, I'm stealing your answer in advance for me. I'm gonna say empathy, for sure. But what would you what would you say? Markus,

Markus Fortune
I do have to also say empathy. I do want to speak to self confidence too. You know, it's so important. And the more I'm thinking about leadership, and since I started, you know, working with reachAbility and working with clients, self confidence, absolutely, I remember my first day shadowing one step closer, just kind of learning how it goes, how it's carried out in the classroom, we watched a video. It was a TED Talk by Amy Cuddy. She is a social power expert. She is a university professor in the States. She her big kind of philosophy is, at first fake it till you make it which. And I'm so glad this was like one of my first days here, because it is how I got this job 10 years ago. If I was telling myself, like, if right now, if I was telling my 20 year old self, like, you're going to be here one day doing this in the classroom, I would have been like, yeah, all right, this isn't happening at all. Never. I remember when I was applying for jobs. I just needed to leave. My last job got toxic. It's not a mystery. I wanted something new. I've been there for nine years, and I think that was maybe my first step into authentic leadership for myself, right? You know, leading my own self through the world and like you don't. It's almost like I took my own hand. And like you don't have to be here anymore. You can leave you. Stop

Blake Hunsley
pretending

Markus Fortune
that everything's okay. Yeah, it's not okay. Yeah, get out of there, yeah. And when I saw that reachAbility had an opening, I was like, there's gotta be some kind of sign. I used to work for reachAbility about 1213, years ago, I reachAbility had summer camps, and that's why I work as a camp counselor. So I was like, This is my moment to be a

Blake Hunsley
new counselor, but doesn't see himself as a leader,

Markus Fortune
getting called out lots today, but it's good. It's all good. But when I saw that, that was like, this has to be a sign, you know. So I emailed it, ended up going to Chelsea, and I. Said, kind of put on my confidence pants for the first time probably ever, really. And I was like, it was a short email. Used to work here, give me the job. It was kinder than that. But I heard from Chelsea immediately. And then I got in here, and I saw that video. And even going back to the interview process, you know, the first few the first interview was, you know, see me going through my resume, my experience, and seeing if I'm a good fit. And the more we talked, I'm like, I'm not gonna get this job. I was, for sure, honest, you know, I'm not gonna get it. It just doesn't seem like a good fit to me. And then Chelsea asked me to put together a presentation just to show I could facilitate. I remember turning my laptop and being like, damn it, I can't do this. Like you're asking me to do something that's impossible for me to do. And I was telling a friend of mine about it, and they were like, fake it till you make it. They're like, pretend to be someone you're not, just to see if you can. You know, I'm not, and I do tell my clients this all the time, and I always like, add a layer of insurance where it's like, don't go to a hospital and say you're a surgeon, right? You know, be realistic for your own goals. Yes. And I said, Okay. And then when I did that, I made the presentation practice the heck out of it. Delivered it, and then everything was, was good. We signed off the meeting. It was over, zoom, and I remember walking away, and I'm like, That went well. And in my entire life with like, in person presentations, I'd never once said that about myself, so that felt amazing. And I didn't know it then, but I knew that I was leading myself in the right direction. Yeah, it felt amazing. And when I started here and saw the video, I remember just like watching, just like wide eyed, jaw dropped, like, this is how I got here. And then when I started facilitating, I was like, I I don't feel like how I did when I was in that interview. I said, I can do this. I faked it till I became it, which is what Amy Cuddy says, Yeah. And I was like, I don't think I could have got here without that little word of like, or phrase of fake it till you make that. Now I'm realizing I have all those leadership qualities, whatever they are, it could be empathy, which I do know empathy and, you know, self confidence is something I'm also learning too and now leadership is now what I'm kind of realizing is kind of like the vest I was wearing all along. I just didn't really know it. I can be a leader. I just need to be more self confident about it. And that's why I think self confidence more important. I not more important, but very right there with I know I went through a long winded way of getting there, but no, I think it's

Blake Hunsley
important. Because I think a lot of people here fake it to make it in a conversation about authenticity, and they think, Well, how could that not be or how could that be more opposite? In my head, it's not because you're not it's like you said you're not going to a hospital and pretending you're a surgeon, you are pretending that you are the person today, that you know you are capable of being on your best day. Yeah, and that is authentic, even if you don't believe in yourself today, you do know that you're capable of that at your best. So to present that side of yourself that is authentic, it's just combined with a little bit of optimism, perhaps. Well, yeah,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
and is it? It's, I think it's self development, right? Like using phrases, okay, using self talk, right? That help us to be successful. Like, you know, it's no different than the first time you're getting up to speak and someone to, you know, big phrase, I mean, I took, like, public speaking because it was mandatory as a part of my law degree. And, you know, one of the things that you're you're told, and this is, and, like, you know, if you're afraid, just imagine the, you know, audience naked. Well, that, to me, it was horrifying, distracted, very distracting. But I think it's how we build that, you know, another term is a fake team, or you need to take a leap of faith, like it's about our self development. We we think we can't do something, and we self talk our way into the fact that I'm not confident. I don't have any the, I don't have the, I can't do that. I'll never I, I can't do that presentation, right? So I really do think I really like when you said self confidence, and I think it's important, you know, for people to realize that it's not something we're born with, right? And it's likely something we have to, you know, become aware of. It's likely something we have to learn. We have to learn how, how to deal with that, how to have good talk inside our head. But for me, probably the most important is, is the empathy piece. And. I but empathy, empathy from because I've always been very outspoken, like I was never considered a shy child or quiet child. I always had an opinion, but I think it's having empathy and understanding okay to other people's ways. Yes, right? And that also only comes from Okay, a building of self confidence, okay, to realize that I can hear other people's point of view, I can empathize with that, I can extrapolate and oh my gosh, I might even be able to compromise right, like there may be other ways. And that only comes from maturity, yes, right, and experience and growth, and that makes us authentic, yeah, right, because you're right, like as you know, like as whatever you've graduated from, whatever job, your first job, you probably are faking it till you make it like, really. You may not be using that terminology, but you don't have two clues to rub together, like when we're like when you first start, but as you get better at it, you have the ability to self reflect. I'm a big believer in self reflection, and when we don't self reflect, then we likely keep making the same mistakes over and over again, and that's what makes us authentic, right? And the fact that you share that with like your team, okay, like and share that story about what happened on the first day, I mean, that shows your authenticity, right? Because it's telling if you're telling that to the participants in the One Step Closer program, it's giving them faith that, okay, so I need to try this, right? Because, look at Markus. Didn't even think he could do it. He's a great instructor, right?

Blake Hunsley
You're giving them an example, a tangible example, right? Which is authentic, yeah, exactly. Empathetic makes it much easier to buy into that whole process, yeah? So,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
well, it looks like we're out of time, and we've had another great, lively discussion today on within reach and so Markus, I'd really like to thank you for joining us. It's great to to hear from you, and really great to have seen your self reflection and growth, okay, into an authentic leader, and that this session actually helped you realize you were a leader, absolutely,

Blake Hunsley
and you gave me a chance to make fun of you for not seeing yourself at the leader. The rest of us all obviously do. So thank you so

Markus Fortune
much. Yes, my self imposter syndrome definitely gets in the way, but it is getting much easier to kind of tell that part of myself to shut up and be like you are a leader. And it took this article, I think, to really hammer that into me. So it was

Blake Hunsley
picked the right one. Then that's great. Yeah, you had both the oldest and the longest article by far

Markus Fortune
The article was actually informative though.

Blake Hunsley
It was really good, which I should mention too. Anytime we post one of these episodes, we're going to be sharing the article resources. Well, some are locked behind pay walls. Unfortunately, there's not much above board I can do to help you with that, but there, there are things you can do out there, resourceful people, you'll find your way we trust, yeah.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod
Thanks for listening to Within Our Reach. We'll be back in two weeks with our next episode. If you have an idea for an episode topic you'd like us to cover, or if you'd like to join us as a guest on the podcast, reach out to us at WithinOurReach@reachAbility.org.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai