(00:00:01): Motherhood has, to me, been an experience of constantly drowning.

(00:00:05): The misogyny is a recurring theme,

(00:00:07): and I've become so accustomed to my rage at my husband that I don't think I even

(00:00:11): notice it anymore.

(00:00:12): But it's not just him.

(00:00:14): It's how everyone treats us.

(00:00:15): And by us, I mean mothers.

(00:00:17): It's the assumption that I'm dumb,

(00:00:19): boring,

(00:00:19): irrelevant,

(00:00:20): that my sole worth is as a mother,

(00:00:22): an activity and role society deems worthless.

(00:00:25): And that's to say nothing of the total lack of support and community.

(00:00:28): I feel deeply lost and all I can do is hope I find myself again if I'm able to

(00:00:33): launch these kids into adulthood.

(00:00:35): Hi, I'm Zahn Valines.

(00:00:37): I'm a writer and feminist activist, and this is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

(00:00:42): I'm here today with my amazing guest, Beth Berry.

(00:00:45): Hi, Beth.

(00:00:47): Hi, Zahn.

(00:00:47): I'm so happy to be here.

(00:00:49): I am so happy to have you.

(00:00:50): Um,

(00:00:51): Beth is awesome.

(00:00:52): So Beth Berry is an activist,

(00:00:54): a coach,

(00:00:54): and the author of Mother Whelmed,

(00:00:57): Challenging Norms,

(00:00:58): Untangling Truths,

(00:00:59): and Restoring Our Worth.

(00:01:01): She writes about how to break free from the cages patriarchy puts us in,

(00:01:04): step into our power,

(00:01:05): and make lasting change in the world.

(00:01:07): She's an expert at building relationships and community,

(00:01:10): which to me is like her superpower because it's something we desperately need at

(00:01:14): this moment.

(00:01:15): But it's kind of hard to sum Beth up in just a biography because she's kind of

(00:01:20): doing like a lot of everything.

(00:01:23): And I think that the best way to describe her is just sort of a lifelong activist.

(00:01:28): So Beth, tell me about your work.

(00:01:30): How do you see yourself and your role in the world and in the feminist movement?

(00:01:36): Thank you for that.

(00:01:38): I see my role changing somewhat in this moment.

(00:01:42): I've kind of reached this place.

(00:01:44): I'm 47.

(00:01:45): My kids are launched.

(00:01:47): As of a couple of weeks ago, my youngest graduated high school and

(00:01:52): uh if you'd asked me a couple of years ago i would have given you a different

(00:01:56): answer i might have said something like i'm here to uh advocate for mothers to help

(00:02:04): reshape the narrative around motherhood um help uh

(00:02:09): really reroute us in a narrative where like really center mothers as what I see as

(00:02:16): the powerhouse of the healing movement honestly if we know that about ourselves and

(00:02:23): we're well resourced and such I still believe all of those things

(00:02:27): What's changed is that I feel a little bit,

(00:02:32): for better or for worse,

(00:02:33): like I'm outgrowing a bit of the revolutionary energy that I've been operating from

(00:02:39): and living my life from for decades.

(00:02:42): Mostly I'm tired,

(00:02:44): and I know I'm not alone in this,

(00:02:46): but there's also this maturation process that's happening where it's like the

(00:02:51): revolutionary in me is giving way to something that feels a little less...

(00:02:57): outward, a little more like, okay, I want to teach.

(00:03:01): I want to write.

(00:03:03): I want to be more contemplative and introspective and take walks in the woods.

(00:03:09): But I want my circle to feel smaller.

(00:03:11): I want my,

(00:03:12): you know,

(00:03:13): like I want to take the,

(00:03:15): what has been this huge circle of interest and,

(00:03:19): you know,

(00:03:20): feeling like I needed to

(00:03:22): fit my my circle of influence like make it bigger and bigger to fit my circle of

(00:03:28): interest now I want to shrink my circle of interest and also shrink my circle of

(00:03:33): influence so that I also can feel good day to day and feel well resourced even

(00:03:39): though the hormonal changes are happening and even though my kids have launched and

(00:03:44): I'm reforming identity so it's changing

(00:03:49): Yeah.

(00:03:50): I mean, that's, that's a lot of change, but you know, life is kind of flux and change.

(00:03:54): It's, it's interesting that you say that though, because so I'm, I'm more in early motherhood.

(00:03:59): My kids are little, but I am also like you, a lifelong activist.

(00:04:05): And I also feel a little bit of a shift in my approach to activism.

(00:04:11): And I kind of wonder if it's less the cycle of a mother and more the cycle of an activist.

(00:04:17): And I don't know, I, I,

(00:04:19): I don't have a lot of thoughts on that.

(00:04:21): So it's okay if you don't, but I'm curious what you have to say about that.

(00:04:24): I like that question because it has me wondering too in this moment.

(00:04:30): I think that you're right about that.

(00:04:32): That has been my experience.

(00:04:34): Just hearing you say that I can feel it in my body,

(00:04:36): that there's truth there,

(00:04:37): that I've been through enough cycles

(00:04:41): Um,

(00:04:41): where,

(00:04:42): uh,

(00:04:43): sort of having my ass handed to me and learning and growing and expanding and then

(00:04:49): feeling this lots of feeling lots of external pressure,

(00:04:53): a whole lot these days of,

(00:04:58): uh,

(00:05:00): pressure to take on even more as an activist,

(00:05:02): to include even more topics,

(00:05:05): even more people to the point where there is my capacity has just been shot,

(00:05:11): you know,

(00:05:12): and it feels like it it it devalues and

(00:05:17): It's kind of like invisibilizes my humanity, just like motherhood, the story of motherhood.

(00:05:23): Very similar,

(00:05:24): actually,

(00:05:25): where it's like,

(00:05:25): hey,

(00:05:27): I too am a human with limitations,

(00:05:29): but somehow there's this expectation of people with big hearts and lots of passion

(00:05:36): and platforms.

(00:05:37): Yeah.

(00:05:39): for doing this work that we're supposed to just have like limitless capacity and resources.

(00:05:46): And it's just not true.

(00:05:47): And I think it wears a lot of people out.

(00:05:51): And in activism so often, it feels like it's meant to be outward.

(00:05:57): And it's always interactive with the world.

(00:05:59): But I do think that

(00:06:02): There is this call back inward to let ideas stew longer.

(00:06:08): And that's really what I'm craving.

(00:06:10): I used to write all the time.

(00:06:12): Like that was how I got started in the kind of work that I'm doing.

(00:06:17): And the bigger my business has got,

(00:06:20): the more I've had to focus on business,

(00:06:22): which I don't even care about.

(00:06:23): Mm-hmm.

(00:06:25): and the less i've been able to write uh and yeah so i i think you're right about

(00:06:32): that that it is the life cycle of an activist and the life cycle of a mother i

(00:06:36): think those two are kind of converging in my world right now yeah okay so this is

(00:06:41): this is not at all the conversation that like i prepared to have with you but i i

(00:06:44): want to run with this a little bit because i've been thinking a lot about like what

(00:06:49): it means to be an activist what it means to be an activist right now like

(00:06:53): my parents and grandparents were activists.

(00:06:55): So this is like really, activism has always been a part of my identity.

(00:07:02): And,

(00:07:03): you know,

(00:07:03): it's been interesting to me to see the cycles of activism where people get activated,

(00:07:08): and then it kind of like dies down a little bit,

(00:07:09): and some people remain at it.

(00:07:11): And,

(00:07:12): you know,

(00:07:12): I think the hope is that with every cycle of activism,

(00:07:15): you get more people who stay activated.

(00:07:17): And I think that

(00:07:19): That is generally true.

(00:07:20): But what has been really striking to me is that my work is overtly political, as is yours.

(00:07:29): But a lot of feedback that I get from people is that I am not sufficiently political.

(00:07:34): And I think that there's this really strange thing that happens where only certain

(00:07:38): kinds of issues at any given moment get deemed political.

(00:07:44): And then everything else matters less.

(00:07:47): And I think what we see over and over again is that mother's issues are depoliticized.

(00:07:52): And, you know, that's not politics.

(00:07:54): That's trivial.

(00:07:55): That's silly.

(00:07:56): And we take these highly political issues and we put them back on the individual,

(00:08:00): which,

(00:08:00): of course,

(00:08:01): just keeps the cycle going.

(00:08:03): of oppression going.

(00:08:04): I got this super weird,

(00:08:07): weird email from someone right around the election who like wanted me to talk more

(00:08:11): about project 2025,

(00:08:13): which like fine,

(00:08:14): you know,

(00:08:14): that's important,

(00:08:16): but they closed their email with you act like politics don't fucking matter.

(00:08:20): It was, it was so enraging.

(00:08:23): Cause it's like,

(00:08:25): how do you not understand that the way that we treat women and children is

(00:08:27): political and that pretending that it's not political is like a weapon of oppression.

(00:08:32): So I don't know.

(00:08:34): I'm not sure how to wrap up this question.

(00:08:36): Say something to me about that.

(00:08:38): Yeah, I just really appreciate you posing it.

(00:08:41): And I guess what I would say is that there's this other convergence that I

(00:08:46): experience often,

(00:08:47): which is that,

(00:08:48): yes,

(00:08:49): the work we do is political,

(00:08:50): but I'm also at the core working.

(00:08:54): My angle is to help

(00:08:59): women feel mothers feel more and more empowered through their own personal growth

(00:09:04): and development,

(00:09:05): but also their journey toward self-compassion.

(00:09:09): And so that piece, that's the biggest rub that I see is

(00:09:13): as you're becoming more political and or more of an activist in the world,

(00:09:19): there's less and less space for the self-compassion.

(00:09:23): And so those two things feel like they're counter to one another.

(00:09:27): And for me, the sweet spot has to be where both of those can exist.

(00:09:31): Kind of like how,

(00:09:32): you know,

(00:09:33): Prentice Hemphill talks about,

(00:09:34): you know,

(00:09:35): the boundaries need to be drawn where I can love myself and you at the same time.

(00:09:41): That's the sweet spot that if I can be in my good work that I know that I feel I'm

(00:09:47): called to do in the world,

(00:09:49): but I'm also caring for myself truly because I deeply love myself now.

(00:09:53): Like I've worked hard to get to this place where I have a really beautiful self-relationship.

(00:10:00): unapologetically, partly and rooted in the desire for my children to love themselves.

(00:10:07): That's how it started for me.

(00:10:10): And I'm not willing to compromise that piece anymore.

(00:10:13): And it feels like that's at the core of everything that's a worthy revolution is

(00:10:19): this self-compassion piece.

(00:10:21): We need it so desperately in the world.

(00:10:24): But it's not outward enough.

(00:10:28): It's not...

(00:10:29): It's feisty enough to satisfy people who want activism to be all outward.

(00:10:37): And I'm just not playing along anymore because it doesn't actually feel like wisdom to me.

(00:10:42): I mean, the focus on outward activism is really interesting to me.

(00:10:46): So my husband is a civil rights lawyer,

(00:10:49): and we were at this award ceremony back in April or May for attorneys who had

(00:10:55): worked on civil and human rights sort of stuff.

(00:10:58): And there was a Black woman speaker there who talked about how Black women

(00:11:04): activists have always been able to seek rest and pleasure because they feel

(00:11:11): generationally connected to cycles of activists.

(00:11:14): And, you know, while it's

(00:11:17): probably an oversimplification to say that.

(00:11:19): I do think that when you're newer to it,

(00:11:23): when you're less chronically exposed to oppression,

(00:11:26): there can feel this sense of urgency to do it all right now.

(00:11:31): My friend Desiree Stevens,

(00:11:32): who I've interviewed on the podcast,

(00:11:34): is this decolonization counselor.

(00:11:37): And she talks about how

(00:11:38): one of the core tenets of white supremacy is the sense of urgency and the sense of

(00:11:43): perfectionism that like we have to do it,

(00:11:44): we have to perform it.

(00:11:46): You know, you can't spend time in the garden.

(00:11:48): No, you can't read.

(00:11:48): No, you can't take a bath.

(00:11:49): Do it now, now, now.

(00:11:51): And that this is born of the idea that activism is like a limited purpose thing

(00:11:56): rather than like an intergenerational project that has to span decades and centuries.

(00:12:03): And I've been trying to remind myself

(00:12:05): that more lately the whole idea that like we need to rest so that we can continue

(00:12:10): to have value and and because we have value absolutely yeah and i think what you

(00:12:16): said about especially when we're newer to it when we're newer to anything we

(00:12:21): haven't matured our craft um and as that happens for me as i i do feel

(00:12:29): seasoned in some areas of my life, that I take really seriously.

(00:12:34): The maturation process is something that we as a culture have lost touch with.

(00:12:41): You know, one of the things that I see is that, you know,

(00:12:46): We're stuck in an adolescent phase of development culturally.

(00:12:49): That's part of the problem.

(00:12:51): It's like the core of the problem is that we don't have many true elders out there

(00:12:56): who are in positions of power because we don't revere elderhood.

(00:13:02): So those of us who feel the pull into true elderhood,

(00:13:04): I think we have a responsibility to shift this narrative around activism or

(00:13:11): whatever we're passionate about.

(00:13:13): and allow whatever it is that we're a part of to mature and allow ourselves to

(00:13:19): mature within whatever that is,

(00:13:21): because that's what's actually needed is the mature versions of all of these things.

(00:13:26): Yeah, that's, that's so important.

(00:13:27): And I really, I've enjoyed seeing your work shift more toward talking about mature motherhood.

(00:13:35): Because even though like my kids are young,

(00:13:37): and I'm not really there yet in my motherhood journey,

(00:13:40): the thing that I talk about

(00:13:42): all the time is that feminism,

(00:13:45): activism,

(00:13:46): whatever label you want to put on the movement has a really significant ageism problem.

(00:13:51): And this is one of the reasons that,

(00:13:53): you know,

(00:13:54): people don't listen to mothers and that younger women don't heed the lessons their

(00:13:58): mothers learned.

(00:13:59): And so as a result,

(00:14:01): we have mothers who just kind of repeat the same cycles and make the same mistakes

(00:14:06): and have the same types of abuse because they're not getting the information from mothers.

(00:14:10): So

(00:14:11): What I would like to know,

(00:14:12): since you're a little bit further in your motherhood journey,

(00:14:16): what lessons are newer mothers missing out on from more seasoned mothers as a

(00:14:22): result of this sort of divide of generations and ageism?

(00:14:26): What should we be hearing?

(00:14:27): What do we need to know?

(00:14:29): Yeah, well, what's tricky about this one is that

(00:14:34): I think most seasoned mothers I know who are on a growth and healing path,

(00:14:39): that's a key component,

(00:14:42): who aren't just coping in ways that they haven't examined.

(00:14:50): We kind of joke because I facilitate groups of women who've been on the journey for a while.

(00:14:55): Everyone is so...

(00:15:00): relieved to be in a group where they can speak freely about what a shit show

(00:15:04): they've been through and how imperfect it is and how,

(00:15:09): again,

(00:15:10): how much they've had their ass handed to them and how normal that is and how little

(00:15:16): control we actually have.

(00:15:18): But here's the struggle is that

(00:15:23): When I also work with younger mothers,

(00:15:25): newer women who are newer to the mothering journey,

(00:15:29): and it's really tough

(00:15:33): to you want to hold encourage them to hold on to their optimism and this feeling

(00:15:41): like yes if I do enough things right I can have some effect on the outcome for

(00:15:46): these kids because that is also important to hold but I think that a real lesson is

(00:15:52): you have a lot less control than you think and you can get

(00:15:58): you know, most of it, right.

(00:16:01): And your kids will still not turn out anything like you thought they might.

(00:16:05): It's just not how it works.

(00:16:09): But that's a real hard pill to swallow when you're early on.

(00:16:12): Hopefully that can be a relief to some mothers that like,

(00:16:16): it's,

(00:16:17): yes,

(00:16:18): it matters like where your kids go to school.

(00:16:20): It doesn't matter as much as you think it does, you know?

(00:16:23): Yes, it matters what you feed them.

(00:16:25): It doesn't matter as much as you think it does.

(00:16:26): And it just like,

(00:16:28): And it's tough too for parts of me even in this moment while I'm saying it because

(00:16:33): I have real strong idealist parts that also have matured and have relaxed because

(00:16:41): they were actually causing me harm.

(00:16:44): But those idealistic parts come in and they're like, don't say that.

(00:16:48): We need all those young idealistic mothers.

(00:16:51): They're essential to the cause.

(00:16:52): And that's also true.

(00:16:54): Yeah.

(00:16:55): it gets a little tricky when the thing I would say is a lot of what you're doing

(00:17:02): isn't going to really make that much difference.

(00:17:05): Like I feel like a cynic and I'm not a cynic.

(00:17:07): It's just my experience that we have less control than we think.

(00:17:12): There's so much perfectionism.

(00:17:14): And I love it that as parents,

(00:17:18): mothers are generally becoming more mindful of like how we talk to kids and

(00:17:22): how we can nurture their emotions.

(00:17:24): But I also see with the rise of gentle parenting,

(00:17:27): this like really extreme perfectionism of you have to get this exact perfect script.

(00:17:34): I have this friend who is just a wonderful, amazing mother.

(00:17:38): I mean,

(00:17:39): you can just like learn so much by watching her,

(00:17:41): but she is so anxious about getting things right with her kids that she will like

(00:17:47): write out scripts before she talks to them.

(00:17:51): And then just beat herself up if she says literally the wrong word.

(00:17:55): And it's just it seems so destructive to me.

(00:17:59): Yeah, I agree.

(00:18:00): And that's where that self-compassion piece, we really need that to come into play.

(00:18:07): And we need to,

(00:18:08): our kids actually need to see us mess up and then repair because they need to know

(00:18:14): what that looks like.

(00:18:15): They need to see us as human and imperfect.

(00:18:20): But it's true.

(00:18:21): We have such a fear of traumatizing our children.

(00:18:24): Yeah.

(00:18:25): Yeah.

(00:18:26): It's like the greatest fear of the modern mother.

(00:18:28): And it's really unfortunate that that's been sort of an unintended byproduct of all

(00:18:37): the child development psychology,

(00:18:40): all of which is beautiful and important.

(00:18:42): But I think that it's like a pendulum swing.

(00:18:44): We've gone way too far in one direction where we think that the more we know,

(00:18:47): the more we can control life.

(00:18:50): And I think I just always come back to this.

(00:18:53): Almost every conversation I ever have comes back to most of these issues would

(00:19:02): lessen or go away if we had community support,

(00:19:06): more community support for raising kids,

(00:19:08): because the hypervigilance and the perfectionism,

(00:19:10): so much of it is rooted in,

(00:19:13): I'm the only,

(00:19:13): in this story,

(00:19:14): I'm the only one tracking the needs of these kids in the whole world.

(00:19:17): Yeah.

(00:19:18): Yeah.

(00:19:19): And I don't get it right.

(00:19:20): No one else will.

(00:19:21): And we'll fuck like that's immense pressure.

(00:19:25): And then we're also like,

(00:19:26): there's this mandate of the modern mother to not allow any trauma to be past your kids,

(00:19:33): which was actually not real.

(00:19:35): You know,

(00:19:35): like we can't actually control for all of those factors,

(00:19:38): many things we can influence,

(00:19:40): but,

(00:19:41): um,

(00:19:42): I think it's really,

(00:19:43): uh,

(00:19:45): It's like another misogynistic tool.

(00:19:49): It's another way that we're kind of keeping women in boxes by saying,

(00:19:55): okay,

(00:19:55): and now you have all this information about how to do it well and you have more resources.

(00:20:02): So you better get it right because if you traumatize your kids,

(00:20:05): that's like the ultimate way to like lose your worth as a woman.

(00:20:11): Yeah.

(00:20:12): Yeah.

(00:20:13): Oh, yeah.

(00:20:13): Well, and, you know, men don't feel this pressure.

(00:20:16): Like men just show up and get praised for,

(00:20:20): you know,

(00:20:20): literally not murdering their kids and sometimes for murdering their kids.

(00:20:24): Oh, he was such a good dad before he just snapped.

(00:20:26): It's wild to me.

(00:20:28): And I think that we need to pay more attention to what are the pressures on mothers

(00:20:33): that are not on fathers?

(00:20:35): And what is the real

(00:20:37): purpose of this?

(00:20:38): Like what, what role is this perfectionism playing?

(00:20:41): And is it really in service of our kids?

(00:20:43): Or is it just a way to keep us oppressed and keep us from doing whatever our life's

(00:20:48): work is going to be?

(00:20:50): Yeah, I completely agree.

(00:20:51): I think that that's an inquiry that we all need to be active with and staying in

(00:20:58): touch with throughout our lives because the perfectionism shows up in different

(00:21:03): ways in different seasons.

(00:21:04): I'm already having to work with this one around future grandmotherhood because

(00:21:12): um with it's like the anxiety around trying to get it right around my kids as

(00:21:19): there's there are less outlets for that now that my kids aren't even home I'm

(00:21:24): starting to think about and you know this is something I'm actively working with

(00:21:28): but there's stories in me now about who I need to show up as as a grandmother yeah

(00:21:35): and

(00:21:36): How do I need to adjust my lifestyle so that I can be the best grandmother possible?

(00:21:43): In part,

(00:21:44): to take some of the burden off of my children,

(00:21:49): who will potentially all be mothers one day,

(00:21:52): knowing how fucked it is for mothers out there.

(00:21:55): I'm now like, okay, now what's going to happen with this next generation of grandmothers?

(00:22:00): We're all going to be perfectionistic in our grandmotherhood,

(00:22:03): I'm afraid,

(00:22:04): because we're trying to

(00:22:06): take some of the burden off of the next generation with these unrealistic

(00:22:12): expectations that are even higher than what we had.

(00:22:14): And the cycle will continue like that until we really consciously interrupt it.

(00:22:19): And I think so much of interrupting it is coming together with other people in a

(00:22:25): similar life journey and doing this deconstruction work with each other.

(00:22:29): Because

(00:22:31): that that's where I think there's real power.

(00:22:34): It's when we're doing it in our,

(00:22:36): our silos isolated that it,

(00:22:37): um,

(00:22:39): that it is just expending so much of our energy.

(00:22:42): Yeah.

(00:22:42): Oh my God.

(00:22:43): I,

(00:22:43): I didn't even think about grandmotherhood and that that's coming and all the perfect,

(00:22:48): like it's never going to end.

(00:22:49): It's, it's, yeah, that's, that's pretty rough.

(00:22:53): I, so I had this interesting discussion in the car with my, I have a second grader this morning.

(00:22:59): Um,

(00:23:00): And I was telling her about you and that I was going to be interviewing you today.

(00:23:04): And she's very interested in feminism because she knows that that's my work.

(00:23:10): And she knows that her dad and I have a truly equitable relationship and is very

(00:23:15): curious about what it's like in different families that aren't like ours.

(00:23:19): But we've just come out of this cycle where my husband was having to work 100-hour weeks, truly.

(00:23:26): And so we had about two weeks where

(00:23:29): I was kind of having the experience of being the full-time mother and the working

(00:23:33): mother and not getting a lot of support from him.

(00:23:36): And so we were talking about that.

(00:23:37): And I was saying,

(00:23:38): you know,

(00:23:38): that's kind of more of what it's like in other families and families.

(00:23:43): You know, can you think of some reasons that that would be bad?

(00:23:45): And she's like,

(00:23:46): well,

(00:23:46): you know,

(00:23:46): you can't garden and you can't read and you can't see your friends and that's not good.

(00:23:50): And I was like,

(00:23:51): yeah,

(00:23:51): I was like,

(00:23:52): you know,

(00:23:52): I really like spending time with you,

(00:23:54): but I also like spending time with myself.

(00:23:57): And I think that helps me.

(00:23:59): And I hope that doesn't hurt your feelings.

(00:24:01): And she goes, no.

(00:24:03): And I hope that this doesn't hurt your feelings,

(00:24:05): but I think you're really best when you're putting about 60 to 70% effort in

(00:24:09): instead of 100%.

(00:24:12): Wow.

(00:24:12): That's quite the astute observation for a second grader.

(00:24:17): Yeah.

(00:24:17): And I was like, yeah, I think you're right.

(00:24:19): I think you're right.

(00:24:20): I think I need to do other things and not have you guys be my sole focus other than work.

(00:24:25): And she was like, yeah, well, I'm glad daddy's back.

(00:24:28): And then she was like, can we get donuts?

(00:24:29): Yeah.

(00:24:32): um yeah it's it's it's yeah it's just wild um so you know community is is the like

(00:24:41): hot button issue that I'm seeing with so many friends why are we so isolated how

(00:24:47): did this happen why is this happening yeah so um

(00:24:54): I think most of us can see how all of the virtual connecting we're doing or

(00:25:01): connecting air quotes is contributing because it's sort of giving us this

(00:25:09): shallow satiation of the longing and um what it's doing is like it's it's kind of

(00:25:17): like if you have a whole population that's starving to death and then you just

(00:25:21): start feeding them all junk food they're now kept alive everyone's getting some

(00:25:27): calories but if you haven't seen

(00:25:32): or been exposed to what nourishing meals and nourishing food is like,

(00:25:37): you might say,

(00:25:38): okay,

(00:25:38): well,

(00:25:39): we're being fed.

(00:25:40): Like, what else is there?

(00:25:43): Is this junk food the only way that it is?

(00:25:46): A lot of us have memory of many of our connections not being,

(00:25:51): or a time when social media wasn't even a thing.

(00:25:55): But we're, you know, it's like we're addicted to the thing that is,

(00:26:02): satiating us in a shallow way.

(00:26:04): It's like we're addicted to the junk food type connections.

(00:26:09): So I think that's a big one.

(00:26:10): But I also think that we have lost skill sets, just like most of us don't know how to

(00:26:21): you know, make baskets or sew quilts, whereas two generations ago, a lot of people did.

(00:26:29): We've lost the skill set of community building that it wasn't modeled for us.

(00:26:33): We didn't see it growing up as actively as previous generations did.

(00:26:40): And we're also becoming in this world that is so overstimulating.

(00:26:47): we're reverting to coping strategies, many of which are protective and distrusting.

(00:26:56): If everything out there is vast and overwhelming,

(00:27:02): and especially if we're on the introverted side,

(00:27:05): it's so much easier to just sort of stay home and get those needs satiated in a

(00:27:11): shallow way than to build the muscles because it requires

(00:27:16): immense vulnerability.

(00:27:17): So I think that's, you know, it's some of it anyway.

(00:27:21): I really do think we've lost a skill set.

(00:27:24): Also, we are so conditioned to move in the direction of comfort that

(00:27:34): And meeting new people and building community is inherently awkward.

(00:27:40): And we have like demonized awkwardness as if it's the worst thing ever.

(00:27:45): But I don't actually think that any of us is going to get to the kind of connection

(00:27:49): and community that we crave without it.

(00:27:51): We have to be willing to be awkward together and put ourselves out there in awkward

(00:27:57): ways in order to go get to where we want to be.

(00:28:01): And that includes in admitting our need.

(00:28:06): We actually do need things from each other, but that feels so vulnerable.

(00:28:10): Because if I admit that I need something from someone else,

(00:28:14): that I can't meet all my needs myself...

(00:28:17): Then what happens when that person doesn't meet my need?

(00:28:21): It can feel crushing because again, we just don't have...

(00:28:27): we're not well resourced in general with the things we need to be thriving.

(00:28:33): And so the resiliency isn't there.

(00:28:36): If we have that crushing disappointment when we put our needs out there and someone

(00:28:42): is not able to meet the needs,

(00:28:44): we're often,

(00:28:45): we don't have the resiliency we need to be okay.

(00:28:48): So we just as soon not try.

(00:28:50): I hadn't even thought about that, but I,

(00:28:54): I think that definitely tracks with my experience.

(00:28:59): It is, it's so awkward meeting new people.

(00:29:01): Like I will prepare,

(00:29:03): I'll prepare like lists of things to ask people and just feel like such a weird loser,

(00:29:09): like interacting with new people.

(00:29:11): And I think a lot of us,

(00:29:14): especially if you're more introverted like me,

(00:29:16): feel that way and feel judged and concerned.

(00:29:19): But I, I had this really interesting experience this year with, um,

(00:29:24): My daughter is neurodivergent and that has like really taken up a lot of our time.

(00:29:31): And she's finally kind of like starting to settle into her class and having like

(00:29:35): play dates with friends and

(00:29:37): She's got this one friend whose mom decided to court me as a friend.

(00:29:44): And it's an experience I haven't had a lot.

(00:29:47): But we went over there for a play date and she just sat down at the table and

(00:29:52): talked to me and started asking me rather intense questions about my life and my

(00:29:58): work and what I like.

(00:29:59): And I...

(00:30:02): so we've like become fairly close friends,

(00:30:04): but it's,

(00:30:05): and that's been lovely,

(00:30:06): but it's also made me sad because I've realized this is not something that is common.

(00:30:13): Whereas I,

(00:30:14): I know that my,

(00:30:15): both of my grandmothers had tons of friends and we're constantly like gossiping and

(00:30:19): spending time with,

(00:30:21): with people and having intense lifelong emotional connections.

(00:30:25): And we've just like, we just don't.

(00:30:29): Yep.

(00:30:32): It's so sad.

(00:30:32): It is.

(00:30:33): It's very sad.

(00:30:34): And that kind of bumps up against another big hurdle.

(00:30:39): And that is that we are so...

(00:30:44): immature as a culture when it comes to dealing with grief that we bump up against that sadness.

(00:30:49): And then we, it's, it's a deep, deep grief for the state of the world.

(00:30:54): And the fact that we're not connecting as humans and we don't know how to be friends anymore.

(00:30:58): Like that's, that is worthy of grieving, but we don't know how to grieve in healthy ways.

(00:31:06): And then it just all gets even more muddled inside of us.

(00:31:09): We just don't know where to go.

(00:31:12): I love people who are good at courting friends.

(00:31:16): I love the folks who unconsciously or consciously will use their gifts to make

(00:31:26): friends and bring people together to be friends.

(00:31:29): I think it's a really, really needed skill set.

(00:31:32): I'm sort of calling to the extroverts out there and saying...

(00:31:36): We need your help.

(00:31:37): We need you to be connectors.

(00:31:40): And so many people are really, I would say, I think it's a reasonable assumption.

(00:31:45): If you're in a narrative like, oh, these people, they don't want to be my friend.

(00:31:51): They already have their friend group.

(00:31:53): I actually think it's a reasonable assumption.

(00:31:57): that most people don't have the community and sense of belonging that they're longing for.

(00:32:05): So I think if we start from that place to assuming that actually people could use

(00:32:10): more friends,

(00:32:11): most people could use more friends,

(00:32:14): I think that's a healthier place to start.

(00:32:16): I had one of my closest friends now.

(00:32:19): The way that we became friends is that...

(00:32:25): We had kind of crossed paths here and there in the dance community and song circle

(00:32:30): communities and hadn't ever really spoken.

(00:32:35): But we had friends in common, each of whom said, hey, you ought to meet Molly.

(00:32:40): She's wonderful.

(00:32:44): And so she walked up to me one day at an event and said,

(00:32:49): Hey, I've seen you around and I've heard your name and I have a friend crush on you.

(00:32:56): And I wonder if you have space in your life right now for a new friend.

(00:33:02): And it still brings tears to my eyes because it was vulnerable on her part.

(00:33:08): It was bold.

(00:33:09): And it was totally effective.

(00:33:13): I did have space in my life for a new friend.

(00:33:18): And we have become dear friends.

(00:33:21): That won't always work because...

(00:33:24): It's not always the right fit.

(00:33:26): I think when something like that happens,

(00:33:29): again,

(00:33:30): we've got to build the resilience to be able to handle it so we're not crushed if

(00:33:35): it doesn't work.

(00:33:39): But the beauty of that is that

(00:33:42): If we're doing that with enough of the right people or the people who we feel like

(00:33:48): we might be aligned with,

(00:33:51): some of them are going to stick.

(00:33:53): It's going to work some of the time.

(00:33:55): And we don't need a ton of good friends.

(00:33:59): I think that's a bit of a misnomer around when we talk about building community.

(00:34:04): That in and of itself feels daunting.

(00:34:06): Start with a friend, a good friend.

(00:34:10): But I think we would benefit from thinking of building friendships more like we do dating,

(00:34:18): that it takes sometimes a while to...

(00:34:23): um go through many people and figure out i like this i don't like this this is i

(00:34:28): feel this feels like a compatibility oh i have chemistry with this person but not

(00:34:32): so much this person and that if we can depersonalize that process a bit and move

(00:34:38): through it more quickly i think we would all be better off that we tend to like

(00:34:42): take things really personally when

(00:34:45): We're trying to make friends,

(00:34:47): but in the dating world,

(00:34:49): that's totally normal that you might have to go through several people or a lot of

(00:34:54): people before you find someone who really feels like a right fit.

(00:34:58): I love it that you mentioned dating because we have a lot of established rituals around dating.

(00:35:05): You ask someone out,

(00:35:06): you have your first kiss,

(00:35:07): you decide if you're going to be monogamous,

(00:35:10): maybe you move in together,

(00:35:11): but we don't have

(00:35:13): friendship rituals past childhood.

(00:35:15): I see with my two kids,

(00:35:17): my toddler has just recently gained the capacity to ask other toddlers that she encounters,

(00:35:24): like,

(00:35:24): do you want to be my friend?

(00:35:26): And my seven-year-old does it too.

(00:35:28): We were with some kids on Sunday and she asked this little girl, do you want to be friends?

(00:35:34): And the little girl said yes.

(00:35:35): And then they hugged each other and like jumped up and down and they were like,

(00:35:38): it's official,

(00:35:39): we're friends now.

(00:35:41): And and I like we don't do that as adults.

(00:35:45): We don't wear friendship necklaces and we don't,

(00:35:49): you know,

(00:35:49): ask people to be our friends where I think we're often afraid of even acknowledging

(00:35:52): that we want to be friends with someone.

(00:35:57): We have no structure about how to get friends.

(00:36:01): Yeah.

(00:36:01): And I actually think that.

(00:36:04): Ironically,

(00:36:06): part of what's going on here is that deep down,

(00:36:11): we know as women that our friendships,

(00:36:16): our sisters,

(00:36:17): our true sisters...

(00:36:19): are the most important thing.

(00:36:22): I feel like it's one of the deepest buried longings in most women.

(00:36:28): But most of us have grown distrustful of each other because we've been conditioned

(00:36:34): through the patriarchy not to trust one another.

(00:36:39): We've buried that longing so, so deep within us.

(00:36:42): I actually think that

(00:36:44): hopefully there'll be more and more research that comes out about this stuff,

(00:36:47): but I would really like to know more about how epigenetics comes into this.

(00:36:53): I've not done a lot of research around this,

(00:36:55): but going back to,

(00:36:57): if we're going to look at the witch hunts,

(00:37:00): part of the weaponization was women against women.

(00:37:05): It was

(00:37:06): turn in going to women and saying who are the healers in this community who are the

(00:37:12): wise women who are the birth workers if you don't out them tell us who they are

(00:37:19): we'll take your children like that shit happened that shit's real it's not even

(00:37:25): that far back in our history so epigenetically could that also be playing a part in

(00:37:31): our resistance to trust one another i i think it's possible

(00:37:35): I think we've always kind of weaponized motherhood in that way, too.

(00:37:38): Like,

(00:37:39): there's this competitive,

(00:37:41): performative motherhood culture that often,

(00:37:44): like,

(00:37:45): supplants actual relationships.

(00:37:48): But yeah, like, I hear what you're saying about epigenetics, and it's got me thinking.

(00:37:52): I have...

(00:37:54): like a lifelong best friend who we were intensely,

(00:37:58): intensely close as children and into early adulthood,

(00:38:01): you know,

(00:38:02): kind of mirroring a lot of the norms of like a romantic relationship of like,

(00:38:05): she's my only person and I love her so much and all of that.

(00:38:09): And,

(00:38:10): you know,

(00:38:10): then we started dating and got married and like,

(00:38:13): we were still like best friends,

(00:38:14): but it was different.

(00:38:16): And it, it felt hard.

(00:38:18): Like I didn't feel very connected to her for many years.

(00:38:21): And

(00:38:23): Our conversations didn't feel natural.

(00:38:25): Like it just got weird.

(00:38:28): And now we're at this stage where we both kind of like acknowledge that it got

(00:38:32): weird and that we don't really know why,

(00:38:34): but that we're like actively trying to build it again.

(00:38:39): And it kind of feels like that cycle of repair in a romantic relationship where

(00:38:44): it's like,

(00:38:44): oh shit,

(00:38:45): like we've drifted apart.

(00:38:46): Like we need to fix this.

(00:38:49): And going through that with her has made me think about how we

(00:38:53): center our romantic relationships.

(00:38:56): And we don't do that with our friendships.

(00:38:59): So it's worth struggling for a romantic relationship.

(00:39:01): It's worth going to therapy to save a romantic relationship.

(00:39:04): It's worth,

(00:39:06): you know,

(00:39:06): yelling and fighting and working through conflict for a romantic relationship.

(00:39:09): But it's like, if you're mad at your friend, it's just done.

(00:39:13): Yeah, it's so true.

(00:39:14): And it's really so unfortunate and deeply sad because often that's when one or both

(00:39:24): people is growing and outgrowing the model and actually maturing.

(00:39:32): Again,

(00:39:33): because we don't value maturation in the culture,

(00:39:36): we also don't value it within a relationship.

(00:39:39): Yeah.

(00:39:40): If one or both, the relationship may not need to end.

(00:39:43): It may need to evolve into its more mature version.

(00:39:47): And we are terrified of that because it means change in an unknown direction.

(00:39:54): So again,

(00:39:55): we don't have the resiliency or the vulnerability tools to be able to stay with it

(00:40:00): as it evolves.

(00:40:02): And so we drop it.

(00:40:04): And again, I just can't help but think that part of the reason we drop it so quickly is because

(00:40:12): It's what we want the most,

(00:40:14): but because it's what we want the most,

(00:40:16): it's the thing we feel most vulnerable around.

(00:40:19): On some deep,

(00:40:20): deep level,

(00:40:20): we know that we are not okay without our sisters,

(00:40:25): but that is incredibly vulnerable to make that known,

(00:40:32): especially in a culture that doesn't value sisterhood either.

(00:40:35): Yeah,

(00:40:36): I mean,

(00:40:36): that was that was my experience with my friend is it was,

(00:40:39): we would get into a push pull thing where one of us was putting in more effort than

(00:40:42): the other one.

(00:40:43): And I felt like for most of the time, it was me, she probably has a different perspective.

(00:40:48): And I remember I would get upset.

(00:40:50): And I'd be like, you know, I'm just I'm going to cut her off.

(00:40:52): I'm not going to talk to her anymore.

(00:40:53): Like I cannot deal with this stress.

(00:40:56): And

(00:40:57): you know, feel very righteous about that.

(00:40:59): And now I'm really glad that I didn't because my reasons for wanting to do that

(00:41:04): were like really kind of stupid.

(00:41:06): And again,

(00:41:07): rooted in that vulnerability of like,

(00:41:10): I can't sit with this discomfort of things not being good with her right now.

(00:41:15): And I think this is one of the places where boundaries work is misused.

(00:41:20): Yeah, yes.

(00:41:22): You know, we're using that one as a vulnerability avoidance tool.

(00:41:29): When I don't, I think there are ways to misuse boundaries work.

(00:41:32): Boundaries work is essential.

(00:41:33): We all need to work on figuring that out.

(00:41:37): What is it to hold healthy boundaries?

(00:41:39): But it is also a good hiding place.

(00:41:41): Yeah.

(00:41:43): Yeah,

(00:41:43): it's so the boundaries thing I've actually I've been thinking about this question

(00:41:48): I'm about to ask you a lot lately and haven't raised it with anybody so it's

(00:41:51): probably not well formed but I have this really wonderful mother in law who I'm

(00:41:55): very close to.

(00:41:57): Um,

(00:41:58): she's in her mid seventies and has like,

(00:42:01): I think she's kind of like a prototypical baby boomer in many ways.

(00:42:04): And in one of them is that she is very upset about the younger generation asserting

(00:42:10): boundaries and no one's really drawn any boundaries with her.

(00:42:15): She just has it in her head that this is a problem, um,

(00:42:19): And she told me a couple of weeks ago when we were getting ready for some kind of

(00:42:23): family gathering.

(00:42:23): And keep in mind, no one has asserted any kind of boundary against this woman.

(00:42:27): She's not a boundary violator.

(00:42:28): She's great.

(00:42:29): But she looks at me and she goes, if anybody draws a boundary at this party, I'm leaving.

(00:42:34): And I just started laughing.

(00:42:37): And I said, Peg, that is a boundary.

(00:42:41): You have just drawn one.

(00:42:43): And it's funny and, you know, different generational vocabularies.

(00:42:47): But what I keep going back to in thinking about that conversation is that my

(00:42:52): mother-in-law is great at relationships.

(00:42:54): She has so many friendships.

(00:42:56): Everywhere she goes, she builds community.

(00:43:00): And so she must be on some level, like could it boundaries, even if she hates the word.

(00:43:05): And I just wonder if...

(00:43:09): We are so quick to be like, well, they said the wrong thing.

(00:43:12): They did the wrong thing.

(00:43:13): They parented it away in a, that I slightly disapprove of, like they're cut off.

(00:43:18): If this is the problem,

(00:43:19): I mean,

(00:43:20): my opinion is that we need to be much quicker to cut off our romantic partners.

(00:43:24): Cause those are the people who pose the real danger to us and much slower to cut

(00:43:29): off other women because like,

(00:43:32): there's not really an epidemic of like women killing and raping other women.

(00:43:36): no i i completely agree with that statement um it's so interesting you bring this

(00:43:42): up and what a great story uh because i've been thinking more and more about this

(00:43:48): because i'm in this like little window i imagine i will be a grandmother within for

(00:43:54): sure the next five years but maybe like two years so it's coming and i i think a

(00:44:00): lot about uh

(00:44:05): the way in which what I'm starting to see is that in,

(00:44:11): you know,

(00:44:11): our generation of mothers,

(00:44:12): this is the first generation that has had this boundaries framework,

(00:44:16): you know,

(00:44:17): that overtly,

(00:44:18): you know what,

(00:44:18): maybe there were versions of it.

(00:44:21): But it's talked about a lot.

(00:44:23): It's a hot topic.

(00:44:25): It's used to,

(00:44:27): I think immaturely, again, we're young at this skill set.

(00:44:32): We haven't really developed it well.

(00:44:34): Many people are using it in a pretty kind of adolescent way.

(00:44:37): It takes a while to mature any skill set.

(00:44:42): And there are a lot of grandparent relationships that are being affected right now

(00:44:53): by the boundaries concept.

(00:44:56): a ton and it's this really tricky and messy convergence of boundaries work and

(00:45:06): extremely high expectations and perfectionism really so when you you had a

(00:45:14): different template for what it was to be a quote-unquote good parent when our

(00:45:19): parents were raising us

(00:45:21): And the template is entirely different now.

(00:45:24): You have to do and be so many more things now to be considered a good mother, at least.

(00:45:31): And we also now have all this trauma awareness and we have all this boundaries

(00:45:38): language that we're now weaponizing against our parents,

(00:45:42): the grandparents of our kids.

(00:45:44): And

(00:45:45): Some of it is appropriate,

(00:45:48): not the weaponization necessarily,

(00:45:50): but the utilization of the boundaries because there is truly harmful behavior.

(00:45:55): Some of it is us projecting our perfectionism on them.

(00:45:58): And what I really,

(00:45:59): really dislike about this is that as I was talking about earlier,

(00:46:04): when you asked what would I say to younger mothers,

(00:46:10): It's those older mothers, those grandmothers, they have figured some things out.

(00:46:17): that you can't see yet when you're younger in the journey,

(00:46:20): like you don't have as much control as you think.

(00:46:22): Yeah.

(00:46:23): And your perfectionism isn't actually going to get you very far.

(00:46:26): It's just making you miserable.

(00:46:28): And now it's cutting me off from my grandkids.

(00:46:32): So I actually completely understand where the,

(00:46:38): you know,

(00:46:39): the frustration is coming from on the part of grandparents right now around this

(00:46:43): boundaries conversation,

(00:46:44): because I don't,

(00:46:46): I think a lot of younger parents aren't actually using the boundaries tools with the,

(00:46:59): it's the combination of the boundaries work and the perfectionism that's really

(00:47:04): doing a lot of damage.

(00:47:06): Yeah.

(00:47:06): I see it.

(00:47:08): So I have a story on this point that I think kind of like it represents it.

(00:47:12): So with my first daughter,

(00:47:15): well,

(00:47:15): with,

(00:47:15): with all of my kids,

(00:47:17): I,

(00:47:17): you know,

(00:47:18): kind of like a naturally oriented,

(00:47:20): like breastfeeding,

(00:47:21): like natural birth parent.

(00:47:23): And

(00:47:24): So with our first,

(00:47:25): we like published a list of rules for how we wanted our family to behave when I was

(00:47:31): in labor.

(00:47:32): And, and they were like, you know, reasonable.

(00:47:34): I mean, it sounds nutty.

(00:47:35): There was probably some nuttiness there, but also reasonable stuff.

(00:47:39): And one of them was that, you know, I was going to labor at home and I would

(00:47:45): let the parents know when I was in labor and don't come over, don't call constantly, whatever.

(00:47:50): And so we did that when I went into labor and my mother immediately showed up at

(00:47:55): the house because she really couldn't stop herself.

(00:47:57): She just couldn't, she just had to come help.

(00:48:01): And my immediate reaction was to like be upset.

(00:48:05): And the additional context is that my mother and I

(00:48:10): had a really great relationship.

(00:48:12): My mom was a really good nurturing mom.

(00:48:14): If that were not the case,

(00:48:16): it would be different if we were talking about someone who was coming over to

(00:48:18): demean and abuse me or to fake a good relationship.

(00:48:22): But we had a good relationship.

(00:48:24): So my husband met her at the door and he was like, eh.

(00:48:27): And I was like, let her in.

(00:48:30): And she stayed for a while until I kicked her out.

(00:48:34): But I ended up being really glad that she was there.

(00:48:36): And

(00:48:38): I could have like leaned hard and to like, well, you violated my technical rule.

(00:48:42): And so now we're fighting, but I didn't.

(00:48:45): And,

(00:48:46): you know,

(00:48:46): then we ended up transitioning to the hospital and my mom had a rare disease that

(00:48:52): limited her ability to speak at the end of her life.

(00:48:55): So in spite of that, she somehow managed to find her way to the birthing suite.

(00:49:00): It's a miracle.

(00:49:02): So she,

(00:49:02): you know,

(00:49:03): wandered her way in and,

(00:49:04): you know,

(00:49:05): again,

(00:49:05): it's like we had told her not to come in and,

(00:49:08): But I ended up being glad that she was there.

(00:49:10): And then like,

(00:49:11): after my daughter was born,

(00:49:13): we had a lot of like breastfeeding difficulties,

(00:49:15): like so many people do.

(00:49:17): And,

(00:49:18): you know,

(00:49:18): I remember thinking like,

(00:49:19): man,

(00:49:19): I really wish my mom could like talk to me about this because she can't talk.

(00:49:24): And she came into the room and she grabbed my breast and popped it into the baby's mouth.

(00:49:29): And then she like latched and it was fine after that.

(00:49:31): We didn't have any more breastfeeding problems.

(00:49:35): and you know I look back on that and I think you know it's really kind of

(00:49:39): inappropriate of her to like grab my boob like that um and there are lots of

(00:49:43): relationships where that would be a huge issue um but because we had a good

(00:49:48): relationship I was okay with her kind of being inappropriate and like riding it out

(00:49:52): with her to see like what she could offer me so you know

(00:49:58): Different people,

(00:49:59): different circumstances,

(00:50:00): but I do think that rigidity can be harmful and I can see how if I was like super

(00:50:04): rigid with my mom,

(00:50:06): then I would have gotten a lot less of what she had to offer me.

(00:50:10): Yeah, I love that story.

(00:50:12): It demonstrates so well this delicate line because when we're setting boundaries,

(00:50:24): we're brand new parents and we're setting boundaries with seasoned parents.

(00:50:27): We are inherently

(00:50:31): yes,

(00:50:31): we might be cutting ourselves off from some harmful interfering behavior that we anticipate.

(00:50:39): We are also cutting ourselves off from experienced parents, period, you know, like experience.

(00:50:46): And so I think we have to like,

(00:50:48): I think it's good to be a little more careful with how we walk that line and be a

(00:50:52): little more curious about,

(00:50:53): huh,

(00:50:54): how...

(00:50:55): What might they have to offer me?

(00:50:56): I don't have to figure all this out myself also.

(00:51:01): And so this is actually...

(00:51:04): kind of at the core of why I now feel some anxiety coming up for me in this little

(00:51:10): window I have between,

(00:51:12): you know,

(00:51:12): my last daughter having flown the coop and becoming a grandmother.

(00:51:17): And that is that when I think about, I consider myself a damn good mother.

(00:51:25): Very, very, also have done a ton of personal growth.

(00:51:32): If my kids come at me,

(00:51:35): this language is problematic and everything,

(00:51:39): I'm just going to speak freely.

(00:51:41): If my kids come at me with rules for how I can interact with them,

(00:51:49): with the baby,

(00:51:50): with the whole experience,

(00:51:53): I can already feel in my body that my defenses will come up because they don't

(00:51:57): actually know anything.

(00:51:58): Yeah.

(00:51:59): Yeah.

(00:51:59): No, nothing.

(00:52:01): I have 30 years of experience in this realm and I've supported thousands of women,

(00:52:05): thousands of mothers.

(00:52:07): And I feel so angry that like,

(00:52:10): that's the template that we're,

(00:52:12): we're operating from is like the younger generations,

(00:52:16): because of all the information overload,

(00:52:18): have more actual wisdom than the people who've lived more life.

(00:52:22): Yeah, yeah.

(00:52:24): I think it's harmful.

(00:52:26): I don't think it's helping us.

(00:52:28): I, again, I want to be really careful.

(00:52:30): I have put a lot of boundaries in place with my own parents.

(00:52:34): So I want to just call one of these both and things.

(00:52:40): My parents, my own mother was really helpful to me when my kids were little.

(00:52:45): I'm so, so grateful.

(00:52:47): And there have been problematic behaviors since.

(00:52:49): So it is a both and,

(00:52:51): but I just encourage people to differentiate from the things you're going to read

(00:52:58): online about the best way to latch the baby and how to form healthy attachment and

(00:53:02): what your mother or mother-in-law might actually know from 20 years of having done it.

(00:53:07): Yeah.

(00:53:08): Yeah.

(00:53:08): I mean, I, I remember, so our, our third was born about six months after my mom died.

(00:53:15): So like, I didn't have my mom.

(00:53:16): So it was my mother-in-law and,

(00:53:18): you know,

(00:53:18): we have a good relationship,

(00:53:20): but there's,

(00:53:20): you know,

(00:53:20): she's my mother-in-law.

(00:53:21): So there's like some distance and,

(00:53:24): you know,

(00:53:24): I'm like in the recovery room after the baby's born.

(00:53:26): I was in labor for like five days.

(00:53:28): It was brutal.

(00:53:29): And Jeff, my husband was like, why don't we bring my mom up?

(00:53:33): Cause she's like a retired nurse.

(00:53:34): And

(00:53:35): It's like, I think it would just be good for you to like have another woman around.

(00:53:38): So it's kind of like, fine, whatever.

(00:53:42): I'll do it for her.

(00:53:44): But it turned out to be for me,

(00:53:45): you know,

(00:53:46): like she,

(00:53:47): she got me into the shower and,

(00:53:50): you know,

(00:53:50): did all the things that my husband was doing and helping me with.

(00:53:54): But like,

(00:53:55): it felt different coming from another woman and it felt different coming from like

(00:53:58): a mother figure.

(00:53:59): Like sometimes we just need to be mothered.

(00:54:02): And so,

(00:54:04): I know that some people may get defensive,

(00:54:06): like hearing about,

(00:54:07): well,

(00:54:08): you know,

(00:54:08): don't be so rigid with your boundaries.

(00:54:10): And the rule I would give is like, accept the annoying and the awkward and the imperfect.

(00:54:16): Don't accept the abusive or harmful.

(00:54:19): And, you know, you can have boundaries around behavior instead of people too.

(00:54:24): I think that's the way we handle that.

(00:54:26): You know, if your parents are abusive, like, no, they're not entitled to access to your kids.

(00:54:30): Or if they're, you know,

(00:54:32): repeatedly violating your boundaries.

(00:54:34): But just as we as mothers have had the experience of being treated like we are dumb

(00:54:39): and incompetent and irrelevant,

(00:54:41): our mothers and our fathers and our grandmothers have experienced that after a

(00:54:47): lifetime of wisdom.

(00:54:48): So let's try not to treat them the way we're being treated.

(00:54:51): Yep,

(00:54:51): I agree with all of that completely and that it's...

(00:54:55): We're not going to get all of this right either.

(00:54:58): You know,

(00:54:59): how can we find more spaciousness and grace within this to try something and be like,

(00:55:04): you know what,

(00:55:05): actually...

(00:55:07): let's try something a little different and be in communities of practice with each other,

(00:55:11): families of practice,

(00:55:13): let it be messy.

(00:55:14): And absolutely, there are plenty of instances also when the boundary needs to be firm.

(00:55:20): Yeah, yeah.

(00:55:22): You know, trust yourself to figure it out and to like correct if you're wrong.

(00:55:26): Like maybe you were too rigid or maybe you weren't rigid enough.

(00:55:29): I think we can always correct and we can always fix things.

(00:55:33): And also to recognize that part of the reason we're distrustful of this,

(00:55:38): a lot of people are distrustful of their parents in their interactions with their

(00:55:43): grandkids is because they didn't have the same access to these frameworks and child

(00:55:49): psychology and all of that.

(00:55:51): But that doesn't mean that they're necessarily holding that as...

(00:55:58): Not helpful.

(00:55:58): They just don't always know.

(00:56:00): Yeah.

(00:56:00): Sometimes it just takes a little bit more patience than we are offering or giving stuff.

(00:56:06): All right.

(00:56:07): Well, I think that's a good spot to wrap it up.

(00:56:09): You know,

(00:56:09): we usually do an advice question at the end,

(00:56:12): but you've actually answered already the advice question that we had.

(00:56:16): So I'm just I'm going to skip that.

(00:56:18): I'm going to put all of that's information in the show notes.

(00:56:22): You should absolutely buy her book.

(00:56:23): It's amazing.

(00:56:24): But it's not just her book.

(00:56:25): It's her communities and her work.

(00:56:27): Like, please.

(00:56:28): Check her out.

(00:56:30): You can find all that information at zahn.substack.com or at liberatingmotherhood.org.

(00:56:37): And I will be back to talk to you guys again in two weeks.

(00:56:40): Thanks, Beth.

(00:56:41): Thank you so much, Zahn.

(00:56:42): It was a real pleasure.