00:00:03 Speaker 1: It was eight pm on Easter Sunday nineteen ninety one when a Bloomington, Illinois gas station was held up and the eighteen year old attendant, Bill Little, was fatally shot. The police made a composite sketch and questioned men in town with criminal records, including twenty five year old Jamie Snow, but neither the physical evidence nor the composite sketch were a match. Anyway, They approached Jamie again two years later and he was cleared by a polygraph. Then five years after that, almost eight years after the crime had taken place, two new detectives developed the theory involving Jamie Snow's then pregnant sister in law driving a getaway car. Rather than take a sweetheart deal to trade false testimony for freedom, she instead took a Sophie's choice and opted to give birth to her baby in jail and rolled it down on a trial that could have resulted in her spending the rest of her life in prison. All of this instead of agreeing to lie on the stand. Luckily, her attorney was able to expose the state's case for what it was and she was acquitted, While Jamie was not as fortunate. This is wrongful conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, where we've got a case out of Illinois that features numerous jailhouse niches and incentivized witnesses who are either coerced or threatened, whose testimonies have all either since been recanted or been proven to be false. We've got police testimony that refutes the state star witness. There was a ton of physical evidence in this case, but none of it matched the suspect. Jamie Snow our guest today who's calling in from an Illinois correction institution where he's been for almost a quarter of a century, and welcome to Ronful Conviction. All.

00:02:19 Speaker 2: I appreciate you guys given me a voice and joining him.

00:02:23 Speaker 1: One of his appellat attorneys from the Exoneration Project, Carl Leonard, welcome back. Thanks for having me and to help us tell this story. Today we have my friend, a legend in the innocence community. Sorry if I embarrass you. John, a guy who's written a few books in his life, including the most recent one, his second non fiction book, Framed, number one of the bestseller lists, which profiles numerous cases of people who were framed and who were actually innocent. John is on the board of Centurion Ministries as well as the Innocence Project. And without further ado, John Grisham, Welcome to Ronful Conviction.

00:02:56 Speaker 3: Happy to be here. Jason. This case, You've got terrible police misconduct and took them eight years to make an arrest. You've got misconduct by the prosecutors, judges who are asleep, You've got jurors who are easily convinced. You've got a very innocent man who's now spent twenty four years in prison, and you've got a murder that will never be solved because the cops screwed up the case.

00:03:16 Speaker 1: But let's go back to before this case began, to Jamie's childhood in Bloomington, Illinois.

00:03:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, I grew up in Bloomington. I had a pretty decent childhood, went to a Christian school up to about seventh grade. My mom and dad were divorced, so they had a really good step dad. I never gave him the credit he deserved. Until I had already grown up and had kids of my own, and then I recognized the sacrifice that he had been making for me and my sister. But my mom developed cancer and died by the time I was seventeen, and that drew me off into a dark path. I guess, you know, I was acting out, doing a lot of dumb shit, eddy thefts and stuff like that. You know, I started running around with the wrong people. I mean, I never had any violence in my history, but it was the juvenile delinquent.

00:04:01 Speaker 1: Despite that pass, Jamie soon turned his energies toward fatherhood and had taxed kids with his wife, Tammy.

00:04:08 Speaker 2: My dad also died by the time I was twenty one, so I feel like I was plugging all them holes in my heart with my kids. You know, if I hadn't gotten arrested when I did, I'd have probably had a baseball team.

00:04:19 Speaker 1: And speaking of arrest, Jamie nearly got dragged into a different case just before this one, a February nineteen ninety one arm robbery that his friend had committed while they were out together with a larger group.

00:04:30 Speaker 2: Everybody that was in the car of the night that he did. Nobody knew what he was doing. It was my wife's birthday, February eighteenth, ninety one. The next day I got the newspaper and now went over and I asked him tell me that this wasn't you, and he was like, yeah, don't worry about it. You know, which you don't know won't hurt you. Obviously it can't hurt you. But the guy fled guilty to it and testified to the grand jury that he didn't give you the money up with anyone.

00:04:58 Speaker 1: And this guy was also an alternate respect for what had happened on Easter Sunday, March thirty first, nineteen ninety one, a little after eight pm, when an eighteen year old gas station attendant named Bill Little tried to stop an arm robbery and was fatally shot.

00:05:11 Speaker 4: Mister Little was killed while he was at work. It's a relatively small area behind the counter of that store. The stool that he would sit on was knocked over. There was a fair amount of blood. By all accounts, there was some sort of a scuffle here. The scene reflects that mister Little had previously said if someone tries to rob the store, he will fight them, and there were fingerprints that were recovered some of the fingerprints are Bill Little's, which one would expect, and there are unknown fingerprints that have never been identified at all. None of the fingerprints have ever been matched to Jamie. There was never any physical evidence tying Jamie to this, and.

00:05:50 Speaker 1: With DNA testing in a more primitive state, they didn't test from multiple contributors to the crime scene, blood or DNA on the bullet casings or Bill Little's close now. First officers on the scene, Paul Williams and Jeff Pilow, were responding to a silent alarm and they saw a young man named Danny Martinez filling up his tires on the east side of the gas station lot. Martinez later claimed that when he finished with his tires, he walked toward the office and saw someone backing out of the door. Then he heard two pops and turned back to his car, thinking that it backfired, and when he turned back around, he claimed that he found himself face to face with the assailant.

00:06:28 Speaker 4: Bloomington police officer responded to the scene was observing the goings on at the store before entering, saw Danny Martinez and saw Danny Martinez leaf and is absolutely certain that Danny Martinez never encountered anybody leaving the store.

00:06:45 Speaker 1: While this officer Jeff Pilo and his partner Paul Williams, said as much in the tape recorded interview, more attention was paid to Martinez a statement in which he described someone wearing a zipped up waistlength coat and a ball cap, standing five foot seven. I'll remember Jamie six' to one was also wearing a cast on his arm at the, time and none of the eyewitnesses mentioned a, cast including a fourteen year old, Neighbor Carlos, luna who lived about two hundred feet down the street to the, east who had claimed to have seen the assailant leaving the, scene but, strangely he didn't see the cops Or Danny.

00:07:18 Speaker 2: Martinez if you look at the layout of the station and where the air pump, Was Carlos luna would have had to look straight Through martinez Car Danny martinez described seeing somebody come out of the store with his coat zipped all the way, up backing out of the store like he was leaning into the door with his hands in his, pocket And Carlos luna described someone coming out fay, forward opening the door with his left, hand wearing a coat all the way down to his. Ankles just the way this person exited the building tells you that they did not see the same, person.

00:07:52 Speaker 1: So luna must have been looking out of his window at a different. Time and then there's an alleged third eye, Witness Gerardo, gutierrez who claimed that he had put three dollars worth of gas in his. Car now remember this was nineteen ninety.

00:08:04 Speaker 4: One he's the person who says that he had gone into the store and paid for his, gas and that there was Attendant Bill little and somebody else who looked shifty or.

00:08:15 Speaker 2: Something he described a one inch scar on his chin that was so fresh you could still see the holes from the, stitches and he had an ear ring in his, ear AND i don't have a scar on my chin or earring in my.

00:08:29 Speaker 1: Ear gutierrez added that the man was six foot two with shoulder length blonde or brown, hair wore a motorcycle, jacket and lit up a cigarette in the. Office, again it was nineteen ninety, one and he said that after, paying he went home and returned when he heard about the. Shooting so it appears that all three witnesses made differing observations at what had to have been different. Times either, way they were brought in to make.

00:08:54 Speaker 4: STATEMENTS a police department sketch artist met with the three. Witnesses the sketch artists said that he spoke To luna and that there just wasn't enough information there to even make a. Sketch the composite sketch was based on descriptions provided By martinez And, gutierrez.

00:09:11 Speaker 1: Who described different, heights different. Coats neither of them mentioned a. Cast martinez said there was a ball, Cap gutieri said long, hair a fresh, scar and an. Earring and likely since the first responders didn't see Who martinez allegedly, saw they chose The gutierrez composite to publicize along with a, reward and we know how that can. Go, meanwhile both were showing books of.

00:09:35 Speaker 2: Mugshots well the night of the, Crime martinez picked out two guys and there were people that he. Knew one of them was the same guy That gutierras had picked. Out and what we didn't, know and we just found out when they turned over these thousands and thousands of pages of documents that they was held from us for twenty, years was that the dude that they had picked out was a suspect in an earlier robbery a month earlier at the same.

00:09:59 Speaker 1: Cast that Was Charles. Renfrold the other guy Was steve Van note and who knows why they were cleared or if either of these witnesses had seen the actual. Assailant, meanwhile a kid Named Randy howard was seeking the reward money related to The february eighteenth armed, robbery and he Named, jamie who was then.

00:10:17 Speaker 2: Arrested when they came to pick me, up one of the detectors walked up and he looked at my, chin looked at my ears or to See i've had a scar on my chin.

00:10:26 Speaker 1: Or ear brings in my, ear which he did. Not and While jamie was questioned about This february eighteenth robbery that he also had nothing to do, with they began asking About march thirty, first nineteen ninety, one.

00:10:37 Speaker 2: The night that had. Happened it Was Easter, sunday spent the day with her family when the crime, happened though at eight o'clock at, night we were sitting in the. House worst place in the world you can ever be is in the safety and security of your own. Home if someone wants to try to put a case on.

00:10:53 Speaker 1: You so they asked him to appear in a.

00:10:55 Speaker 2: Lineup originally it had agreed to stand in the lineup in my attorney at the time came to me and was, like the prisons are full of guys that have been wrongfully. Identified and he, said my, advice you just don't do. It AND i WISH i would have just did, it because the fact THAT i didn't want to do it was something that they used against me WHEN i went to.

00:11:14 Speaker 1: Trial so, meanwhile in addition to the publicized, reward there's the unspoken one among those facing their own. Charges and one of the first false statements may have stemmed from an encounter Between jamie and a guy Named Ed.

00:11:27 Speaker 2: PALOMBO i knew that him and this other guy had been out to an armed robbery and he had passed me on the. Street you, KNOW i was just being smart about, it you, KNOW i was just, like you, KNOW i read about in the paper to what. Happened it wouldn't give you the, money and he gave me a really weird. Look he drove.

00:11:45 Speaker 1: Off at this Point ed's, Girlfriend shannon was in the passenger seat and initially came. Forward at the end Of april nineteen ninety, one perhaps to cash in on the reward while helping Out ed with some unrelated armed robbery. Charges, together they flipped the narrative of this drive by, encounter With jamie.

00:12:03 Speaker 2: That he had passed me on the street and THAT i had told him did you read about me in the? Paper the gun went off or something and he died from along the. LINE i think that he was trying to get out of the trouble that he was. In he was able to get the cocharg TO.

00:12:19 Speaker 1: VIP ed had also Named jamie in four other, robberies including the one to Which ed had, confessed and maybe to try to corroborate this highly motivated, Witness jamie was again asked to stand for a live, lineup and he finally agreed In may nineteen ninety. One, strangely, though they called In Carlos, luna who couldn't even describe the assailant to the sketch.

00:12:41 Speaker 4: Artist When luna viewed the, lineup he said that he tried to imagine each of these people doing, it and that he tried to find the person who looked closest to, it and that there were a few who might have been the person that he says he. Saw he's later given an affidavit saying that he assumed that the police had the guy and put him in the, lineup and so he believed his job was to pick out the person from the menu of options who'd best fit what he, remembered which he based on what he said was the shape Of jamie's face and the shape of his.

00:13:13 Speaker 1: Hair and they knew from the distance To luna's house from the gas station that this was not a reliable. Id they needed Good tiers Or, martinez both of whom had already passed Over jamie in photo arrays and the live.

00:13:29 Speaker 2: Lineup AFTER i did his lineup and my lawyer came in there and, said, okay, man you're. GOOD i thought that was. IT i turned the page on, it, man AND i forgot all about. It my in laws were moving To. Florida they had friends that lived down. There so and that was in ninety one when we first moved down.

00:13:45 Speaker 1: There as the investigation plotted, on witnesses with ulterior motives continuously came, forward like a guy Named Steve, shiel who in nineteen ninety one was looking for reward, money and he said That jamie had confessed to a woman Named Molly, feaster and Then shield was arrested on unrelated charges and Said jamie had confessed to him while at a party At Molly feaster's, house who they tracked down in nineteen ninety.

00:14:10 Speaker 2: Three she originally, SAID i haven't Seen jamie in five to six seven years or something like, that you, Know and this was in like ninety, three so it would have put it way before ninety. One and she's, LIKE i don't even know if i'd recognize him IF i saw him, again.

00:14:24 Speaker 1: So that thereby Discredited shiel for. Now, Meanwhile gutierres had always said that he bought three dollars worth of gas around eight, pm but the only three dollars purchase in the register was at six fifty FIVE. Pm but when, Confronted gutierrez changed his. Story he said that after seeing the person and paying for gas at six fifty five, pm he met with a friend and then stopped in again when he saw the cop cars at the gas station on his way. Home so two years into this, saga his composite was scrapped and they switched to The martinez composite with the ball, cap which described an assailant that the first responders should have, seen but simply did.

00:15:02 Speaker 2: Not and he have said something, like AS i was pulling in the, LOT i saw somebody coming. Out that would have. Flew but for him to say that while he was down putting air in his tires he saw someone coming out of the gas, station that doesn't, fly because at that point you've Got Paul williams watching the, door and you've Got Jeff peeble Watching Danny. Martinez that couldn't have.

00:15:23 Speaker 1: Happened so in nineteen ninety, three this new fraudulent composite was floating around And jamie came back To illinois From florida when he was approached again by Lead Detective Charlie.

00:15:32 Speaker 2: CROWE i had a traffic ticket one day AND i came out The law And Justice center In bloommeton And charlie crow was standing there waiting for, me and he's, like, man can we go and sit down and? Talk and me and him said at a picnic table for a good. Hour he's, like, well why would people say that you know you visit or that you know who did it or? Whatever And i'm, like where are they?

00:15:51 Speaker 4: At?

00:15:51 Speaker 2: Man are they in? Jail and he, said, yeah you, know some of them are in. JAIL i said that answers the question right. There and he was just, like why don't you take this polygraph so we can ruin you, in going to rule you.

00:16:00 Speaker 1: Out now we know how polygraphs can be unreliable and, misused But jamie was desperate to prove his.

00:16:06 Speaker 2: Innocence WHEN i passed the, POLYGRAPH i, said now do you believe? Me he, Said i've never thought that he did. IT i just think you might know who did. It AND i, said, man IF i knew who did, IT i promise YOU i would tell you THEN i WOULD i wouldn't be doing life for somebody. ELSE i can promise you. That the ninety four we ended up moving back To florida AND i was doing tree. WORK i had a plan AND i was going to build the best tree service In Canola's. COUNTY i was living my best life ever down. THERE i couldn't believe THAT i could make so much money AS i was. Making life was really, good he really.

00:16:57 Speaker 1: Was and that's how it went for three long years With Charlie crowe at The, helm but his Underlings Dan katz And Rick barkas were out trying to Save gutierrez as a willing, eyewitness and they found a man facing his fourth or FIFTH dui Named Bruce, rowland who had never Met, jamie but said That jamie had confessed to, him saying that he had been at the gas station twice that, night the first time just before seven, pm on his way to a party hosted by a guy Named Brian.

00:17:24 Speaker 2: Whitmer bruce, SAID i recently went there to get some, cigarettes but THAT i didn't have any, money SO i left and went down to The whitmer house to a, party and THEN i went back to get some, CIGARETTES i, guess and that's WHEN i committed the. Crime and he said THAT i told HIM i got a couple of carts of cigarettes and there were no cigarettes. Missing but you, know the Whole Bruce rowland. Thing had they have done their due diligence before they tried to Get Bruce roland to create this story to cooperate, gutierres they would realize That Brian whitmer was in jail that, night was no party down the, street.

00:18:01 Speaker 1: Not to mention That jamie And brian had a falling out in nineteen eighty, eight and then to add doubt to an already dubious. Statement roland created a getaway driver out of thin. Air, remember no one had ever mentioned a getaway driver. Before and this alleged getaway driver was none other Than jamie's Friend mark, McGowan, who by the, way denied, it as did his Girlfriend. Karen and get, This mark didn't even have a.

00:18:27 Speaker 2: Car bruched the first one to Put mark's name into, it and then other people start putting his name into. It it's just like this rumor was going around town for, six, seven, eight nine years man and it morphed into what it.

00:18:41 Speaker 1: Was But Charlie crowd never bought. It so when he retired In june nineteen ninety, Seven marcus And katz went back to The roland, narrative but Since mark McGowan wouldn't, flip they replaced him With jamie's sister in, Law Susan.

00:18:54 Speaker 2: Claycombe at the, time my wife when she told me that they had Pulled Michael defending over In tennessee and had given her a subpoena to the grand jury because they think she was the one that was driving the. Car you, know we both laughed BECAUSE i don't think anybody would allow her to drive him somewhere unless it was like a kid and they had no. Choice but if you were an, adult you were not Let susan drive you.

00:19:16 Speaker 1: Anywhere but they'd found a friend of hers, Name Julie, knight who had a substance abuse issue and had lost custody of her, kids and she had agreed to cooperate in a number of, cases including this, one to get them back And john to add more insult to, Injury susan was pregnant at the.

00:19:34 Speaker 3: Time it smells to me like it's a very, awkward misguided effort by the police to find some other way to put pressure On. Jamie and we'll put pressure on. Her she's expecting a. Child all these factors go into, it and if it, works he's. Dead he's, Nailed.

00:19:52 Speaker 1: Okay at this, Point susan And jamie were arrested And susan Clay comb's defense, Investigator Martin, foster visited the, witnesses Including Dani, martinez who told him that he'd Seen jamie's picture in the paper and that he was not the. Assailant so the prosecutor's office went to meet with this defense witness as well as to Offer susan a deal which she courageously.

00:20:13 Speaker 2: Refused they offered her, probation they told her that they to charge it against. HER i mean they pressured her for a year and a half to try to get her to testify AGAINST i, MEAN i wish you could talk to, her, MAN i wish you could have met. Her she's probably the strongest Person i've ever.

00:20:31 Speaker 1: Known she's a bona fide. Hero she gave birth in jail while facing her own. Trial incredible, woman all of this to stand up for the. Truth and may she rest in.

00:20:44 Speaker 2: Peace AND i think once they realized That susan was not gonna play ball with, him that's When Danny martinez all of a sudden hit his Miraculous.

00:20:53 Speaker 4: Tiffany and now eight years, later When jamie is arrested and he Sees jamie's pick sure in the, paper now his memory is crystal clear that it Was. Jamie and now he will never forget those. Eyes even though right after the fact he was not able to Identify.

00:21:10 Speaker 2: JAMIE i know they Had Bill little's mom calling him on the phone and stuff like that before he ever made an.

00:21:16 Speaker 1: Identification Before susan's, trial her, Investigator Martin, foster Revisited martinez to ask why he'd completely switched his, story And martina, said it's my understanding that they have a lot of evidence against this, guy so he must be the right. Guy So martinez was called to the stand At susan's.

00:21:33 Speaker 4: Trial So Danny martinez says that he was at the station filling his tires and that he heard two bangs and then came face to face with somebody exiting the. Store that it Was Jamie snow who did.

00:21:49 Speaker 2: It he justified At susan's, Trial come about eighty five percent sure that's the.

00:21:54 Speaker 1: Guy susan's attorney put On Martin foster and some Of Danny martinez his coworkers who said That danny had told them That Jamie snow was not the. Assailant they also raised how he'd identified other people along the, way and Then Bruce rowland trotted out the theory that added the getaway driver and Made gutierres into a viable. Witness But gutierres was shredded by the defense over the time. Discrepancy and Then Julie, knight who testified at the grand jury and got her kids, back, well she didn't testify a, trial So susan was not ideed as a getaway, driver and none of the other witnesses even supported the existence of.

00:22:29 Speaker 4: One pilo did not see a getaway. Driver martinez did not testify about a getaway driver or ever say that he saw a getaway. Driver luna did not see a getaway. Driver so the story that they've concocted from these really incentivized, individuals none of the story matches the actual evidence or the evidence that the state's own witnesses put forward as to what they saw happen at the.

00:22:51 Speaker 1: Scene So susan was, acquitted Giving jamie's Attorney Frank, pissel at least a partial blueprint for success a. Trial in two thousand and, one there was a far longer list of jailhouse snitches and other incentivized witnesses that the detectives had accumulated over ten, years Which john it seems like leaning on these, witnesses these vulnerable, witnesses had to be the state's.

00:23:12 Speaker 3: Strategy when there's no physical evidence linking the defendant to the, crime no, video, nothing, nothing no physical, evidence no, fingerprints no, bootprints NO, dna no, bloodstains no. Nothing that's a huge red flag and that's where the prosecutor should stop right here at the very beginning to, say wait a, minute we don't have any. Evidence and that's where a really good criminal defense lawyer would tear up the prosecution's. Case you've got snitches on the witness stand, lying and they're also fun to attack when you're on cross, examination but not so much.

00:23:46 Speaker 1: Fun when there was no damn many of. Them There's Ed, Palumbo Ed, Hammond Ronnie, Wright Steve, Shield Kevin, Shall Jody, Winkler Bill, Moffatt Bruce, Rowland Bill, gattis And Bridget, logsdon all of whom that they were receiving nothing for their testimony and needed to be investigated and.

00:24:05 Speaker 4: IMPEACHED i Think jamie had a difficult opportunity to defend himself at trial for a couple of. Reasons, one he had a lawyer who just did not do what a defense lawyer is supposed to, do did not engage in the investigation that he could have engaged, in and did not Represent jamie the way that he should. Have but also whose hands were in some ways tied by the fact that the state withheld a ton of evidence from. Him so you had an ineffective lawyer with an insufficient amount of evidence that should have been disclosed to.

00:24:36 Speaker 1: Him and we'll start with a witness who had available impeachment, Evidence Randy, howard who initially stated that a few days after the crime that he had Called jamie for a ride And jamie. Confessed, now, One jamie didn't have a car or a phone at the, time and, Two randy was an habitual reward seeking tipster, who for five hundred dollars a week after this alleged, confession Misidentified jamie in The february eighteenth, robbery yet failed to cash in on what he allegedly knew about The march thirty first. Robbery it's highly Unlikely howard also threw in a tidbit That jamie would tuck his hair under a ball cap to disguise, himself.

00:25:15 Speaker 2: Which you know fits the composite. Drawing you know the guy was wearing a ball, cap.

00:25:20 Speaker 1: But when presented with his statement on the, Stand howard wouldn't commit to. It so even though his impeachment evidence was, available it wasn't raised next At. Palombo as we mentioned back in ninety, one he and his Girlfriend shannon twisted a real encounter With jamie into an alleged, confession And ed got some charges of his own. Dismissed. Well as trial, approached the girlfriend recanted and they Revisited, ed who was locked up for something, else and those old charges resurfaced he was in.

00:25:49 Speaker 2: PRISON i think they was basically, like, look, man you gave this, statement we're going to call. You if anything other than what you said in the, statement we're going to charge.

00:25:58 Speaker 1: You Ed palumbo has also since. Recanted and then There's Ed, hammond who claimed to have done time With palombo And, jamie not true by the, way and had also initially identified some guy Named Troy, mays but then as trial, approached he Named, jamie who was later revealed that he had gotten a deal on an armed robbery in exchange for his. Testimony next Up Steve. Schiel as we, mentioned he'd initially said in ninety one That jamie had confessed To Molly, feaster and, then when faced with his own charges in ninety, three he changed. It he Said jamie confessed to, him Not, molly at a party At Molly feaster's.

00:26:32 Speaker 4: House what we know now Is shiel had taken a polygraph and told the polygraph examiner That jamie never confessed to, him never said he did. It this also wasn't disclosed at. Trial of, course he testified That jamie did confess to.

00:26:47 Speaker 1: Him and then Came Molly, feaster who had originally said in ninety three that she hadn't Seen jamie since before the crime, happened but she changed her tune on the stand in two thousand and.

00:26:58 Speaker 2: One they put her on this and to Cooperate Steve. Shield her whole thing was just, that you, KNOW i was at the. Party we've talked to her husband since and he said there were never no parties and that he would have never Let Steve shield in the house.

00:27:12 Speaker 1: Anyway Steve shield also later, recanted saying that he'd made this statement for leniency in ninety, three but then as trial approached he was threatened with solitary confinement if he didn't testify. Accordingly Ronnie wright was another witness who, recanted saying that he'd made a statement Against jamie over at jailhouse gambling, dispute but that wasn't known at trial. Either and then there was two guys who Knew jamie And, Florida Kevin shaw And Jody, winkler who had initially said That jamie never discussed the crime with, them but, later when faced with their own, charges they agreed to testify for. Leniency, similarly there Was Bill moffatt who'd made a statement in ninety five when facing aggravated battery and then again in ninety eight when facing three counts of. Rape only those deals were never. Disclosed and we've already Mentioned Bruce, rowland who was facing his fourth or FIFTH dui and alleged That jamie had told him about this timeline that in turn Saved gutiera as a witness involving a six fifty five pm cigarette run followed By Brian whitmer's supposed party and the eight pm return to the gas station with a getaway.

00:28:17 Speaker 4: Driver roland had taken a polygraph about his story and the conclusion was that he was. Lying, nevertheless he went on the stand that wasn't disclosed to the.

00:28:26 Speaker 2: Defense Rick rowland couldn't even identify me in court state Tourney, anton you sign the, courtroom and he's looked at the thing when he's like the ile seam and she went over and stook right next to the. Table she got right here at this. Table he seen sitting, here and he looked me, like, NO i don't recognize him. Yet this is some dude That i've known all my life and would confess the murder to.

00:28:47 Speaker 1: Him as a REPEAT dui. Offender instead of a heftier, Sentence Bruce rowland received an even lighter sentence that ran concurrent with the time he was already, serving and to Rebutt, roland the defense Called Brian.

00:29:00 Speaker 2: Whitmer he just testified number, one he would have never had me to his house for a party because we weren't, friends and that the night that the crime, Happened brian was in.

00:29:10 Speaker 1: Jail, additionally before the state had swapped In Susan klaycombe as the getaway, Driver bruce had previously Named jamie's Friend Mark, dowen so years earlier they Approached mark's Girlfriend Karen strong before she married another.

00:29:25 Speaker 2: Guy in her first, statement she, said you, Know mark didn't have a, car so you, know if him And jamie wanted to hang, out they took off walking because they didn't have a. Ride and then she said that sometime in nineteen ninety, ONE i came to her house looking for a place to, stay and then when she came to, trial she changed that up to she remembered it was on the night of the. Crime it was between the hours of ten and, midnight AND i saw the front of the car and he had on a ball, cap and that her Boyfriend mark had told, Her, yeah he was involved in that murder at the gas. Station we called him as a. Witness he denied it never. Happened and she's married to some dude Named. STRONG i know that he had some charges. Pending the day that she, testified they dropped all the charges against her, husband.

00:30:13 Speaker 1: And Karen strong wouldn't have even been involved if not For Bruce rowland's lives about the getaway driver And roland originally said that his information came from another, Inmate Bill, gattis who couldn't Pick jamie out of a photo, array but was called to the stand anyway to talk about the time he'd walked into a room full of, men Including, jamie who had all been crying Over jamie's involvement In Bill little's. Death but none of those men in this alleged group corroborated this made up and hard to believe.

00:30:41 Speaker 4: Story, today In, illinois the state would have to prove at a pre trial hearing that these witnesses were, reliable and that was not required back. Then there's a good reason that we do these extra steps with jailhouse informants because they are notoriously. Unreliable they have reincentive to. Lie and that's what happened, here.

00:31:02 Speaker 1: A point that was corroborated a trial in part by a correctional officer Named Mary Jane, burns who had Told jamie in jail that she was being pressured to find informants for his trial and became a defense. Witness but then all of a sudden made a statement that she and three inmates Overheard jamie say that he knew who did. It but, then despite threats and, deals when none of these three corroborated her, Statement burns recanted on the. Stand then the defense Called jamie's wife to testify about his, alibi and in, rebuttal the state called another incentivized, Informant Bridget, logsdon who said that she'd Overheard jamie's wife talking About jamie's guilt in a. Bar the Deal logsdon had made for her own charges it wasn't disclosed, either and once Again jamie's attorney had not found the impeachment witnesses in time to Refute logsdon's. Lie since, then anyone Who logsden said was there has said that this never. Happened so without all of this really important, context the jury heard from the alleged eye, witnesses starting With Carlos luna And Gerardo.

00:32:03 Speaker 4: Gutierrez gutierrez testified about seeing the attendant and somebody else in the. Store the attendant appeared nervous and so did the other, person and the situation felt very suspicious to. Him Mister gutierrez never made any identification Of jamie in court or previous to, court or at any, time.

00:32:24 Speaker 1: And the details from the composite were also raised because now the composite didn't contain a fresh scar on the chin Like gutierrez had.

00:32:31 Speaker 2: Described the state's attorney was trying to characterize it as a just a. Scratch this guy just had like a, Scratch but when you read the police, reports if it was more than just a, scratch then Game Carlos.

00:32:44 Speaker 4: Luna Carlos luna testified about having looked out his window and seen somebody walking from the, store possibly with the cash register trey insert where the money would.

00:32:57 Speaker 1: Be luna didn't make an in court identification, either and years, later he also recanted his nineteen ninety one live LINEUP i D but the most consequential eyewitness was yet to Come Danny, martinez who claimed to have seen the assailant from one to three feet.

00:33:12 Speaker 2: Away and It's susan's. Trial he, said you, Know i'm about eighty five percent sure that's the, guy But danny changed it To i'm one hundred percent.

00:33:20 Speaker 4: Sure Danny martinez testified that he would never Forget Jamie snow's. Eyes that's what he remembered most, clearly that the eyes of the person that he encountered walking out of the store Were Jamie snow's.

00:33:33 Speaker 2: EYES i, Mean Frank fitzel he did Ask, danny, well these, Eyes he'll never forget what color were? They and he's, LIKE i don't.

00:33:41 Speaker 1: Know so this is Where jamie's, Attorney Frank, pissel could have Called Danny martinez his coworkers Or susan Clay comb's, Investigator Martin, foster but he just fucking, didn't Which john as a former defense, Attorney that's that's an unforgivable, sin.

00:33:55 Speaker 3: Right this is a pretty extreme case because the lawyer later went to prison for cheating an old lady out of her. Money he was a heavy, drinker he had mental, problems he was under tremendous, stress and his performance at trial was. PATHETIC i read these trial transcripts often And i'm just shake my. Head you look at, it and you, say some of the lawyering here is really really.

00:34:18 Speaker 1: Bad with the failure to investigate these witnesses and the lack of information shared by the, state as well as the failure to even present the witnesses From susan's, Trial jamie's fate was.

00:34:29 Speaker 2: Sealed, yeah the courtroom was, full and it seemed, like all of a, sudden all the lights got like a million times. BRIGHTER i could feel my heart, beaten AND i could hear it beat in my, ear you. Know but when the judge read the, verdict it was LIKE i didn't fully comprehend what it was that he. Said AND i leaned over To frank AND i, said what did he? Say And frank, Said i'm. Sorry After i've been, convicted the detective cats caught me in the hallway in the county jail one day and told me that IF i would give them this other guy that they believed was involved in the, case IF i would give them him that the state's attorney would agree to forty, years which at fifty, PERCENT i would have done twenty years in the. Now and WHAT i told him was so, basically you want me to do to him what you just did to. Me you want me to make some shit up for. You he's, like, no we don't want you to make none Une AND i, said, WELL i don't know who did, it, MAN i didn't do. It and the detective, said, well think about. It it's crazy BECAUSE i just told HIM i didn't know anything about, it and he's, like we'll just think about.

00:35:53 Speaker 1: It jamie refused and was sentenced to life without the possibility of.

00:35:58 Speaker 2: PAROLE i knew THAT i was going to go to one of the worst prisons in the state Of. Illinois STATE i got. Lucky they put me in a dell with a good. Guy he kind of helped me get on my. FEET i. GUESS i couldn't buy so toothpaste or. Nothing and this guy really kind of took me under his, WING i, guess and helped me navigate all of the landmines that were. Around that is a good. Guy he always claimed that he was innocent being locked. UP i, mean he made my time a lot easier than it, was SO i got, lucky.

00:36:38 Speaker 1: But he was not so lucky on his direct, appeal and as he moved on to post conviction, motions it appears that his cellmate also knew his way around the law.

00:36:46 Speaker 2: Library he helped me get my original post conviction pro se post conviction, together and he had a life sentence to and sure, enough, man he didn't get. Exonerated but he had a. Choice you can go home, now take time, served or you can keep on. Fighting and he probably would have been, exonerated but he'd been locked up for so. Long he just wanted to go, home and he took. It AND i don't blame. Him he'd had a son that had gotten, murdered and he had another son that was out on the, streets and he just wanted to get home to his, family and he struggled with. It tomorrow's not guaranteed to, anybody but that is a good.

00:37:23 Speaker 1: Guy does this good guy have a? Name Carl. Williams our audience might Remember. Carl we're going to link his interview in the episode, description so please check it, out in which our guest, host a previous guest on the show is a dear friend Of, carl's one of his fellow legal, Eagles Patrick. PURSLEY i Know.

00:37:40 Speaker 2: Patrick patrick helped me put my post conviction together as. Well very. SMART i MEAN i stood On Patrick persley's door four hours talking about my case and he never tried to run me. Off he never said he was. Busy he would sit there and he would listen to, me that he would give me all the advice that he could possibly and you, know he was fighting his own, thing but He, yeah he's a good, dude, man he really. Is there's very few, people, man That i've met Since i've been in here THAT i will absolutely get out and go look up IF i ever get a chance In carl And patrick are definitely two of.

00:38:18 Speaker 1: Them and we hope that reunion can one day become a, reality and maybe it will be as a result of some of the work that they did together In stateville while Writing jamie's first post conviction, motion for which in two thousand and, four they ordered the evidence that was available to his trial counsel and found police reports with corresponding tape recorded interviews of the two officers on the, Scene Paul williams And Jeff, peelow and it seems that the police reports didn't reflect an important. Reality in, addition That jamie's attorney must have never listened to the tapes but simply read the, reports because these two officers described Watching Danny Martinez philip his, tires turned to walk into the, station turned back to his, car then back to the, station and this is the moment That martina is alleged that he nearly bumped into the. Assailant so if that's, true why didn't they swoop.

00:39:08 Speaker 2: In this cop was standing across the street watching him the whole, time and there was never anybody.

00:39:13 Speaker 4: There, yeah there's actually an affidavit From Officer pelow saying from the TIME i arrived across the street to the TIME i entered the gas, station my gaze was never off the front of the station for more than a few. Seconds and he goes on to say that he's absolutely positive that from the TIME i arrived to the time THAT i eventually entered the gas, station no one other Than Bill little was either in the gas station or entered or exited the gas. STATION i had a, clear unobstructed view of the gas station door and was focusing on the.

00:39:42 Speaker 2: Station there is no way that somebody could have came out of that gas station and came face to face With Danny martinez in the parking lot And Jeff peelin Or Paul, williams the other police officer on the, scene not see the guy come out of the gas. Station it's. Impossible it couldn't have, happened and the state knew. It.

00:40:01 Speaker 1: Man not only did they know it from the, officers but also A foyer request revealed That martinez hadn't just passed Over jamie in those early.

00:40:09 Speaker 4: Lineups back, then the defense team knew about the non identification at the, lineup but the fact That martinez when he viewed the, lineup he affirmatively said it was Not Jamie snow that was never.

00:40:20 Speaker 2: Disclosed that's the thing that just is so disgusting about what they, did, man as they know that they put that dude on the stands to make an identification when it could not have.

00:40:31 Speaker 4: Happened jamie subsequently files several pro says post conviction, petitions all of which are, tonied and eventually The Degeneration project gets. Involved around two thousand and, eight amends one of his post conviction petitions and continues to try to litigate it.

00:40:50 Speaker 1: And that amended petition and subsequent petitions Included Jeff peelow's, affidavit as well as recantations from jailhouse snitches Like Steve shield And At, palombo who had threatened with more or worse time in prison to stick with their original. Statements Ed palumbo added that the, Prosecutor Charles, raynard had told him that they knew someone else had done, it but, quote since they couldn't get that other, Person jamie would have to do end, quote which is, corroborated by the, way by the Offer jamie got From katz before. Sentencing And Ronnie wright also.

00:41:24 Speaker 2: Recanted Ronnie wright reaked out to us and was, like, LOOK i feel bad about WHAT i did and it's really mess up with my conscience AND i just want to do the right. Thing we didn't even reach out to. HIM i, mean we've been looking for, him but he actually reached.

00:41:39 Speaker 1: Out to uh right said that he had testified Against jamie because of some jailhouse. Disagreement Carlos luna has also recanted his live LINEUP I.

00:41:47 Speaker 2: D but in, addition what we finally three boy requests was that there was a memo a sergeant in The Bloomington Police. Department Thanks Geene irving saying this isn't an. Identification this kid couldn't make an identification if he wanted. To he, SAID i was there that. NIGHT i was looking out that, window And i've seen people who were running around in the parking lot AND i couldn't identify, them and they were people THAT i.

00:42:11 Speaker 1: Knew so that's four, recantations Plus palumbo's Girlfriend shannon before trial And Mary Jane burns And Randy. Howard understand, well that makes a total of.

00:42:20 Speaker 2: Seven, well we don't have recantations for all of, them but we have either that or we have Like Bill moffatt was one of the, informants and we got an affidavit from somebody that was in prison with him that said they knocked ten years off of his sentence for.

00:42:37 Speaker 1: Testifying and for those who couldn't be similarly. Discredited there Were foyer requests which unearthed much of what was hidden From Frank.

00:42:45 Speaker 2: Pissel my Friend Ray, wilson who's a retired chief of, police had been filing These foyer requests for, years hundreds of, them and we come to find out that they had actually withheld eight thousand pages of document From frank so he didn't know a dozens of alternative suspects in police reports and statements that could impeach the, witnesses.

00:43:09 Speaker 1: And that included two failed pre trial polygraphs For Steve shield And Bruce, roland both of whom had also hidden their motivations for.

00:43:16 Speaker 2: Testifying Bruce rowland claimed that he wasn't doing it for any. Deal we find these letters that are going back and forth between him and the state, attorney and that's not what was going. On he was definitely looking to try to.

00:43:30 Speaker 1: Get a, deal and as we, mentioned he got, one and The foyer requests revealed that he wasn't alone At, Plumbo Steve, shield At, Hammond Kevin, Shall Jody, Winkler Bridget Logsdon Julie. Knight they all receive. Deals who's Left Bill gattis with the story about the fucking crying that. Guy and in addition to running all this down over the, years The Exoneration project has also been trying to get the crime scene evidence.

00:43:54 Speaker 4: Tested one of the pieces of testing that we're looking for now is to run those fingerprints through the much more advanced system that exists today and even THE, fbi which maintains the, database suggests on their website that fingerprints that were run in the past should be rerun using the new. Technology and we know that there were other suspects in this, case and we also are looking to have testing done on some of the other evidence from the. Scene there were bullets. Recovered we have a lab who can test those bullets FOR dna to see if THE dna from the person who loaded the gun is present, there and that's been done in other cases. Successfully we've also sought to have testing done on Mister little's. Clothing there's every reason to believe that there was a physical, struggle and if that's the, case the OFFENDER'S dna would likely have been left behind on Mister little's clothing and the blood that was recovered at the, scene which no doubt Mister little's blood is, there but it could also be a mixture of the assailant's blood and his, blood and we'd like to have that tested to determine whether it's a. Mixture at a hearing that we did, recently A dna expert testified about how the testing is available to, do how they would do, it how they've done it successfully in the, past and it's testing that Mister snow's defense team would be paying for, this there's no cost to the, State so, nevertheless they've opposed. It we had a hearing where we put on witnesses and the judge denied the. Testing so the current status is that we're on appeal from the denial of that post conviction forensic.

00:45:36 Speaker 2: Testing everything that we're asking to tests forensically is exactly what they would do right now if they didn't have me already in, prison serve and time for the crime in this case has just happened. Today everything that we're asking to, do they would, do and it's only going to do one of three. Things it's either gonna do, nothing it's gonna include, me which it, won't or it's gonna exclude me and it's gonna point the finger at the person who was in the gas station that. Night so it's a win win situation for the prosecutors no matter what, happens it doesn't make any stip why they're finding so hard not to do the.

00:46:10 Speaker 1: Testing, WELL i know myself And John gisham are pulling For. Jamie i'm Sure Carl williams And Patrick pursley are as, well AND i hope our audience will join.

00:46:19 Speaker 2: Us so they can go to Free zamisnow dot. Com they can go To snowfiles dot. Net that's our. Podcast that's where we pretty much just lay it all. Out they can find the truths about the. Case we got a petition on.

00:46:31 Speaker 3: There you can, sign go to the, website bring yourself to speed and then lead of the, governor talk to your, friends get your friends to write. Letters these guys are, politicians and when the mail starts getting pretty, heavy somebody's gonna notice.

00:46:43 Speaker 4: It Jamie snow has been in prison now for decades for something he didn't. Do there's never been justice done in this. CASE i think somebody knows something about who really did, it and any information that people have could potentially be, helpful and we would definitely appreciate hearing from. You our website Is exonerationproject dot org and you can get in touch with us through.

00:47:05 Speaker 3: That and if you got a few, bucks you're not talking about big. Gifts unless you get a lot of, money make a. Donation there's never enough, money and there's a very direct correlation between the amount of money you have to spend for exoneration cases and the number of people you can, free and there are thousands of innocent people in.

00:47:22 Speaker 1: Prison well, said and we're going to have the websites and action steps linked in the episode. Description and with that we're going to closing, arguments where First i'm going to Thank John, grisham the one and, only for his, support and both of, You jamie And, carl for joining us here. Today and Now i'm just gonna kick back in my, chair close my eyes with my headphones, on and listen to anything you feel is left to be. Said let's start With, john Then, carl and Then. Jamie you take us off into the.

00:47:48 Speaker 3: SUNSET i can't really think of it that he's been left un. Said there's a whole lot we could talk about these cases. Forever that's WHY i wrote the, Book. Jason these cases are so. INCREDIBLE i Wrote The Innocent man this in two thousand and, six sort of jumped into that case and researched. It and the More i've, learned the worst Of. GOD i couldnot believe what, happened and SO i wrote this book and that really took me into the world of wrongful. Convictions And i'm still there right now and over the years with you In New. York at banquets and things like, that you meet some of these ex, hoonareies and they're remarkable, people men who have survived nightmares if the rest of us cannot begin to, imagine and they come out steal in one. Piece most of. Them they have their, dignity they have their, Pride they're tough as. Nails they survived and they don't want to talk about. It they want to do something good with their remaining. Time but just you fall in love with these ex. Hogneries that's Why i'm still trying to help people Like jamie and still believe in the cause of exonerating innocent. People but, more even more, importantly is to pass laws and change procedures that will eliminate virtually all wrongful. Convictions it can be, done if we would just do.

00:48:57 Speaker 4: IT i Think jamie's case is a union weekly tragic, one but also all too. Common AND i definitely thank you and your listeners for your interest in this type of injustice and all the support and trying to remedy. IT i really am, appreciative and all of us, are AND i Know jamie, is for the attention that you've paid to his case and to so many other cases where people have been wrongfully. CONVICTED i know that it's been very hard For jamie and obviously very hard on his, family but he is a very strong. PERSON i admire him a great deal AND i look forward to one day seeing him on the. Outside there's a long, ROAD i, think in an uphill, battle but with support from people like you and your, LISTENERS i think we'll get there for, him hopefully sooner than.

00:49:43 Speaker 2: Later, yeah, MAN i appreciate, You John. GRISHAM i Appreciate doll giving me a, voice AND i hope that this creates some pressure on someone as somebody who's got the how to make a. Difference here's it and does? Something sent me a quote a long time ago From Martin Luskin junior and justice anywhere is a threat to justice. Everywhere and that's the Truth, smith it really.

00:50:09 Speaker 1: Is thank you for listening To Wrongful. Conviction you can listen to this and all The lava For good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing To lava For Good plus On Apple. PODCASTS i want to thank our production, Team Connor hall And Kathleen, fink as well as my fellow executive Producers Jeff, Kempler Kevin, wartis And Jeff. Kleiber the music in this production was supplied by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us across all social media platforms At lava For good and At Wrongful. Conviction you can also follow me On instagram At It's Jason. Flamm Wrongful conviction is a production Of lava For Good podcasts and association With Signal Company Number.

00:50:52 Speaker 5: One we've worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in this show are. Accurate the views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect those Of LoVa For.

00:51:02 Speaker 2: Good