1 00:00:09,870 --> 00:00:12,900 Andy Polaine: Hello and welcome to Power of Ten, a show about design operating 2 00:00:12,900 --> 00:00:16,440 at many levels of zoom from thoughtful detail through to transformation in 3 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,810 organization, society, and the world. 4 00:00:18,870 --> 00:00:20,259 My name is Andy Polaine. 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,760 I'm design leadership coach, service design, and innovation consultant. 6 00:00:24,165 --> 00:00:25,425 Educator and writer. 7 00:00:25,875 --> 00:00:30,495 My guests today are Johan Blomkvist, Assistant Professor in Design IDA 8 00:00:30,495 --> 00:00:33,075 in Linköping University in Sweden. 9 00:00:33,075 --> 00:00:34,485 I'm pretty sure I pronounced that wrong. 10 00:00:34,965 --> 00:00:39,735 And Stefan Holmlid, Professor in Design IDA. Also at the same university 11 00:00:39,735 --> 00:00:43,845 in Sweden, and together with Simon Clatworthy, who's not with us today. 12 00:00:43,845 --> 00:00:47,295 He's the professor in design at the Oslo School of Architecture 13 00:00:47,295 --> 00:00:48,254 and Design in Norway. 14 00:00:48,614 --> 00:00:52,725 They are the authors of the new book called The Materials of Service Design. 15 00:00:53,460 --> 00:00:55,560 Johan and Stefan, welcome to the show. 16 00:00:55,565 --> 00:00:56,035 Johan Blomkvist: Thank you. 17 00:00:56,035 --> 00:00:56,160 Stefan Holmlid: Thank you. 18 00:00:56,790 --> 00:01:00,510 Andy Polaine: So the book is called The Materials of Service Design, 19 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,280 and it is a sort of recognition, I guess, of in other, traditionally in 20 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,789 design you have things like materials, libraries, and you have, uh, uh, 21 00:01:08,789 --> 00:01:10,080 you know, uh, or pattern libraries. 22 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,680 You have things that you, you can kind of recognize the different types of design. 23 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,070 Why did you feel the need to write the book? 24 00:01:17,340 --> 00:01:17,910 Johan Blomkvist: Mm, 25 00:01:18,180 --> 00:01:26,850 I. We felt like it was time, maybe even a, a bit over time to write. 26 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:27,090 Yeah. 27 00:01:27,090 --> 00:01:36,960 This kind of book, since the material that I. We, well me and Stefan think 28 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:41,760 a lot about and work a little bit with and service design practitioners 29 00:01:41,820 --> 00:01:48,990 work with daily is not very well understood, I think or explored. 30 00:01:49,500 --> 00:01:54,540 Um, and we have been thinking about this and struggling 31 00:01:54,540 --> 00:01:56,910 with, uh, the issue of what. 32 00:01:57,675 --> 00:02:04,274 The service design material actually is for a long time and before this book, 33 00:02:04,274 --> 00:02:08,925 I think, uh, a lot of what we know about the material comes from other 34 00:02:08,925 --> 00:02:13,785 disciplines such as, uh, service marketing or service management, for instance. 35 00:02:14,565 --> 00:02:15,315 And. 36 00:02:15,415 --> 00:02:20,155 I, it has been useful for us to think about how to understand the 37 00:02:20,155 --> 00:02:21,984 service from that perspective. 38 00:02:22,075 --> 00:02:28,435 What it means to co-create value, or what it means to work with resource 39 00:02:28,435 --> 00:02:31,734 integration and things like that, and what that means for design. 40 00:02:32,454 --> 00:02:37,674 But it's time, I think, for the sign. 41 00:02:38,130 --> 00:02:42,300 To explore the material and think about what the material actually 42 00:02:42,570 --> 00:02:43,620 is and what it consists of. 43 00:02:44,700 --> 00:02:47,760 And in the process of writing this book, I think we discovered that 44 00:02:48,060 --> 00:02:54,690 it's much more complex, it's much more rich in terms of different. 45 00:02:55,035 --> 00:03:02,115 Types of materials, different perspectives on the material than we anticipated. 46 00:03:02,955 --> 00:03:04,125 So, yeah. 47 00:03:04,395 --> 00:03:08,115 Uh, I think it was, uh, overdue for, for this book. 48 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:08,410 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 49 00:03:08,745 --> 00:03:09,015 Yeah. 50 00:03:09,105 --> 00:03:10,770 You know, service design is one of those things that is. 51 00:03:12,510 --> 00:03:15,840 One of the things I say traditionally, I, I we've out and written about 52 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,260 it too, is, you know, we often talk about it being intangible, right? 53 00:03:19,260 --> 00:03:23,520 That the, the experience of a service or the, the value of a service is 54 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,290 about the interaction between people. 55 00:03:25,650 --> 00:03:29,080 Um, and so I. I'm interested in your, you know, in your use of the word 56 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,760 materials, EE even, so, you know, when you were doing this, you have kind of, 57 00:03:34,030 --> 00:03:35,890 you started to make a kind of taxonomy. 58 00:03:36,010 --> 00:03:39,520 You started to make a, some kind of categorization of different 59 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,040 types of things and it sort of forms a section of the book. 60 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,830 And maybe you could talk about that a little bit actually of, 61 00:03:44,830 --> 00:03:48,195 of what those sections are, but also was that immediately obvious? 62 00:03:48,765 --> 00:03:49,935 Of how to categorize this. 63 00:03:49,935 --> 00:03:52,245 'cause I have, I would imagine that was a thing. 64 00:03:52,245 --> 00:03:55,005 You must have thought, uh, and discussed a lot. 65 00:03:55,245 --> 00:03:55,785 Stefan Holmlid: Yeah. 66 00:03:55,785 --> 00:03:59,115 I mean, let, let me first say something about material and the intangible, 67 00:03:59,115 --> 00:04:00,290 tangible thing, and I'll mm-hmm. 68 00:04:00,290 --> 00:04:04,905 I'll pass on to you on to talk about this, all the nerdiness of, 69 00:04:04,905 --> 00:04:09,585 uh, categorizing and, uh, thinking about how do they actually fit 70 00:04:09,585 --> 00:04:13,035 together all of these different ways of thinking about materials here. 71 00:04:13,905 --> 00:04:16,755 So, um, one thing that we were. 72 00:04:17,430 --> 00:04:20,730 That we wanted to do was both to talk about service as a material, but 73 00:04:20,730 --> 00:04:24,690 also about the materials that service designers use in their practice. 74 00:04:25,770 --> 00:04:34,620 Uh, and as you said, there's a lot of thinking that, and, uh, that these, 75 00:04:34,860 --> 00:04:38,730 this service design thing is, it's about intangibles, about the material. 76 00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:40,920 And that's of course not untrue. 77 00:04:42,390 --> 00:04:46,230 Uh, but everything also needs to be in the world. 78 00:04:47,340 --> 00:04:52,110 Which means that it also becomes material, even though maybe not in the sense that 79 00:04:52,110 --> 00:04:59,220 it becomes a physical thing, uh, that we can grasp with our fingers necessarily. 80 00:04:59,310 --> 00:05:02,159 I. Everything actually exists in the world, which makes 81 00:05:02,159 --> 00:05:04,169 it material in some sense. 82 00:05:05,309 --> 00:05:10,320 So that was something that kind of also developed during our writing 83 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:16,919 and talking about these materials of service design that, well, they, all of 84 00:05:16,919 --> 00:05:20,250 them are both intangible, untangible. 85 00:05:21,630 --> 00:05:26,190 It's, it's not that they are either or they're both at the same time. 86 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:33,870 And that's also something that maybe is very prevalent in service design 87 00:05:34,710 --> 00:05:38,490 while it's less prevalent, maybe in in other disciplines of design, 88 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:40,980 but that also caused a lot of. 89 00:05:43,290 --> 00:05:45,599 Discussions, let's call it, uh, let's call it that. 90 00:05:45,599 --> 00:05:45,810 Right. 91 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,190 Um, thinking in when we were writing, because we were also, we also agreed when 92 00:05:50,190 --> 00:05:54,150 we started to writing the book that we don't have to agree about everything. 93 00:05:55,050 --> 00:05:55,320 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 94 00:05:55,710 --> 00:05:57,930 Stefan Holmlid: We just have to agree that this is an important book 95 00:05:57,930 --> 00:06:01,920 to write and we may come with very different perspectives and ideas on 96 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,159 what this can be, should be, have been. 97 00:06:05,820 --> 00:06:07,620 Um, and that's what we wanna do. 98 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,690 We want to make that book happen. 99 00:06:11,340 --> 00:06:14,969 And then we had all those, uh, materials and the categorizing work 100 00:06:15,030 --> 00:06:16,440 that needed to be done suddenly. 101 00:06:17,790 --> 00:06:20,220 Andy Polaine: So I put, I've put on screen here briefly 'cause I 102 00:06:20,220 --> 00:06:21,840 highlighted the content before. 103 00:06:21,900 --> 00:06:26,130 So, Johan, you were gonna talk about how those discussions resolve into, 104 00:06:26,190 --> 00:06:31,320 uh, and when you say discussions, are we talking like there was like strong 105 00:06:31,770 --> 00:06:36,995 debate around this and, and arguments in a, in a good sense, robust editorial, 106 00:06:37,135 --> 00:06:41,035 uh, debate or, or was it that we're just trying to get our heads around this. 107 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:46,940 Johan Blomkvist: No, I mean for the categorization, I think we just 108 00:06:47,090 --> 00:06:51,979 agreed, like Stefan said, that we won't be able to agree fully, uh, 109 00:06:51,979 --> 00:06:55,099 on any categorization and, um. 110 00:06:55,890 --> 00:07:02,430 Um, so I, I'm not exactly, you know, that the strong words came 111 00:07:02,430 --> 00:07:08,160 in other situations, um, but the categorization was interesting. 112 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:13,980 So it's the third part of the book book, um, where we sort of take all the 113 00:07:14,070 --> 00:07:16,440 material contributions from other authors. 114 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:21,960 So there were a lot of people that contributed to the book and, um. 115 00:07:23,145 --> 00:07:27,795 They, their chapters should have formed this material library that we 116 00:07:27,795 --> 00:07:31,185 are starting, um, uh, with this book. 117 00:07:31,575 --> 00:07:37,965 And, uh, we felt like we can't just, you know, include the material library 118 00:07:37,965 --> 00:07:43,305 and not say something about what the materials have in common or. 119 00:07:43,710 --> 00:07:47,159 You know, ways in which you can structure them or analyze them. 120 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:54,120 So we decided to do some attempts at categorizing the materials and, um. 121 00:07:54,630 --> 00:08:01,350 We, I think we quite quickly realized that we couldn't agree, um, and that 122 00:08:01,350 --> 00:08:06,690 meant that we, we tried, and I don't know really why we decided to do 123 00:08:06,690 --> 00:08:12,135 that, but we actually included in the book our, uh, our failed attempts at 124 00:08:12,135 --> 00:08:16,495 categorizing the materials not failed necessarily because each categorization. 125 00:08:16,780 --> 00:08:18,669 Says something about the materials. 126 00:08:18,669 --> 00:08:24,849 So we have a viewpoint from, um, uh, from the service marketing field, for instance. 127 00:08:25,090 --> 00:08:25,210 Yeah. 128 00:08:25,239 --> 00:08:28,419 So how could you categorize the materials from that point of view? 129 00:08:28,929 --> 00:08:32,049 Uh, how can you categorize the materials from a more, uh, 130 00:08:32,079 --> 00:08:33,699 design practice point of view? 131 00:08:33,699 --> 00:08:37,745 So that's another, uh, like how the materials relate to each other. 132 00:08:38,130 --> 00:08:41,490 As part of the sign, that's another categorization that we Yeah. 133 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:43,380 Um, that we attempted to do. 134 00:08:43,950 --> 00:08:48,120 Uh, and the one we sort of end up with, which is not to say that, you 135 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,460 know, everyone agrees that that's the best one or anything like that. 136 00:08:50,490 --> 00:08:55,320 I think it's, it, it's main benefit is that it's very, uh. 137 00:08:55,755 --> 00:09:01,875 Like small and easy to understand and grasp so that that sort of divides the 138 00:09:01,875 --> 00:09:04,094 material into traditional materials. 139 00:09:04,454 --> 00:09:08,474 So some materials are more traditional in some sense. 140 00:09:09,104 --> 00:09:10,229 Uh, and of course there's a lot of. 141 00:09:10,980 --> 00:09:14,910 Uh, debate about whether or not material can be considered traditional and 142 00:09:14,910 --> 00:09:16,050 what that means to be traditional. 143 00:09:16,050 --> 00:09:21,150 But we say that a traditional material is one that you can work on alone and, 144 00:09:21,329 --> 00:09:26,910 um, you don't need to include others in giving form and shaping this material. 145 00:09:27,390 --> 00:09:29,579 Then we consider it more of a traditional material. 146 00:09:30,035 --> 00:09:31,474 Andy Polaine: Can you give me some examples of that? 147 00:09:31,834 --> 00:09:34,354 Johan Blomkvist: Um, yes I can. 148 00:09:34,444 --> 00:09:40,625 Um, so we have, um, touchpoints, for instance, uh, in the way that we 149 00:09:40,625 --> 00:09:44,645 describe touchpoints in the book or the chapter on the Yeah, the material 150 00:09:44,645 --> 00:09:46,295 description of touchpoint, for instance. 151 00:09:47,104 --> 00:09:47,255 Stefan Holmlid: Yeah. 152 00:09:47,255 --> 00:09:49,055 So just to, um. 153 00:09:49,589 --> 00:09:54,780 To add something there is also that the, the thing with the, with the 154 00:09:54,780 --> 00:10:00,120 categorization we ended up with, which is these three end points 155 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:06,569 on spectrum, um, in some sense is that they also work generatively. 156 00:10:07,980 --> 00:10:11,910 So, uh, the first categorization we did with that, or the one 157 00:10:11,910 --> 00:10:13,290 that, that related to service. 158 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,630 The traditional service fields, we felt that the, the materials got 159 00:10:18,630 --> 00:10:25,530 locked in and it didn't really give the possibility to think outside 160 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:28,079 and beyond what is already there. 161 00:10:28,860 --> 00:10:32,640 So one thing that this, uh, final categorization we did. 162 00:10:34,065 --> 00:10:37,635 Uh, made, what it made possible was to actually work generatively with 163 00:10:37,635 --> 00:10:40,815 figuring out what could be a new material that we should work with 164 00:10:41,085 --> 00:10:45,135 and how can we think about something that we're working on as a material. 165 00:10:46,035 --> 00:10:46,065 Okay. 166 00:10:46,065 --> 00:10:48,855 And how can we develop a material into, so a traditional 167 00:10:48,855 --> 00:10:51,375 material like them touch points? 168 00:10:51,885 --> 00:10:52,185 Yeah. 169 00:10:52,185 --> 00:10:56,985 Uh, if we want to make it more like a co-design material, 170 00:10:57,765 --> 00:10:59,115 what then do we need to do? 171 00:10:59,715 --> 00:11:00,075 Andy Polaine: Okay. 172 00:11:00,855 --> 00:11:03,405 So right now I would be, if I was listening to this. 173 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,990 Audience, I would be thinking, well, that's all very well, all sounding kind 174 00:11:06,990 --> 00:11:11,430 of abstract to me, so, so let's get kind of, uh, nuts and bolts a around it. 175 00:11:11,460 --> 00:11:13,260 'cause because you use the word materials, right? 176 00:11:13,260 --> 00:11:15,540 There's the, there's definitely an expectation I think, that you 177 00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:17,130 can then describe these things. 178 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,220 They have certain qualities, you know, they have certain 179 00:11:20,220 --> 00:11:21,450 affordances and so forth. 180 00:11:21,810 --> 00:11:25,170 So let's start with the, maybe the, the, the touchpoint ones. 181 00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:30,510 Um, and for those of people they might, they assume there's quite a lot of service 182 00:11:30,510 --> 00:11:34,500 design people, uh, listening, but describe to people who may not understand even that 183 00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:36,900 word, uh, what you consider a touch point. 184 00:11:36,930 --> 00:11:38,940 As a, as actual materials. 185 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:39,900 Yes. 186 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,920 Johan Blomkvist: So the thing is, this chapter was written by one of 187 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,130 the contributors of the book, so. 188 00:11:47,445 --> 00:11:53,205 I would prefer if the author of that chapter, uh, could 189 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,845 also, uh, explain the material. 190 00:11:55,935 --> 00:12:00,615 Um, so that's another thing that we noticed, uh, during the, the writing 191 00:12:00,615 --> 00:12:04,725 this book that, um, a lot of people that contributed to the book, they're really 192 00:12:04,785 --> 00:12:09,075 passionate about their material and they want, they know a lot about the material. 193 00:12:09,075 --> 00:12:12,495 They work with the material, they can explain the material, and they, they 194 00:12:12,495 --> 00:12:14,745 have a firm grasp of what they mean. 195 00:12:15,135 --> 00:12:21,405 By, you know, touchpoint for instance, or clay or behavior or, uh, any 196 00:12:21,405 --> 00:12:22,665 other material that you can find. 197 00:12:22,665 --> 00:12:25,334 There's a lot of materials in the book and. 198 00:12:26,070 --> 00:12:31,890 So I don't want to, uh, to sort of, uh, intrude on, on their area, 199 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:34,170 their explanation of touchpoint. 200 00:12:34,710 --> 00:12:40,590 Um, so, uh, yeah, I, I would rather, uh, that, uh, we sort of collect these 201 00:12:40,590 --> 00:12:44,850 materials and make them available to people so that, uh, everyone can, uh, 202 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,780 can see them and judge for themselves if they think it's, uh, a material that 203 00:12:48,780 --> 00:12:51,930 they work with, then they understand why it's a material, for instance. 204 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:52,410 Yeah. 205 00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:54,570 And, uh, how it's, um. 206 00:12:54,660 --> 00:12:58,050 Uh, worked into a more finished form as part of Okay. 207 00:12:58,050 --> 00:12:59,280 The design process. 208 00:12:59,670 --> 00:13:00,060 So, 209 00:13:00,540 --> 00:13:03,510 Andy Polaine: Well, I, I, I'll give my, my version then in that case. 210 00:13:03,630 --> 00:13:03,689 Yeah. 211 00:13:03,689 --> 00:13:07,709 So for me, I always talk about touchpoint as, um, something that you can. 212 00:13:08,849 --> 00:13:13,349 See s sense, basically see, smell, touch, uh, and interact with, 213 00:13:13,380 --> 00:13:14,910 and or interact with, right? 214 00:13:14,939 --> 00:13:18,480 So, so, um, it's usually a thing that actually has some kind of 215 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,000 tangibility in the world in that way. 216 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,089 You know, it, what, what might I hold in my hand? 217 00:13:24,089 --> 00:13:27,060 Who, what, what or who might I interact with? 218 00:13:27,420 --> 00:13:27,719 You know? 219 00:13:27,719 --> 00:13:28,740 So it could be another person. 220 00:13:29,300 --> 00:13:32,090 Um, and often, you know, and traditionally in sort of service 221 00:13:32,090 --> 00:13:34,310 blueprints and stuff, you have this idea of the line of visibility. 222 00:13:34,310 --> 00:13:35,360 And I've always kind of hated that. 223 00:13:35,390 --> 00:13:38,120 'cause I thought, well, you know, if you ever sat next to someone in 224 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,270 a restaurant smoking a cigar, you'll know it's not just visibility that, 225 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:42,500 you know, makes a difference, right? 226 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:45,260 Or you've got the, the table and the other toilets and all those things. 227 00:13:45,830 --> 00:13:47,840 So, you know, there's quite a lot of other stuff in there. 228 00:13:47,870 --> 00:13:51,170 But in general, the, it's the, the moments of interaction. 229 00:13:51,605 --> 00:13:54,725 Um, tho those would, or the, the things you're interact with, interacting with 230 00:13:54,725 --> 00:13:58,955 or, uh, sensing at any, any one point that I would consider a material, the obvious 231 00:13:58,955 --> 00:14:04,895 materials of touch points, but there are some other things like policy and time. 232 00:14:05,345 --> 00:14:06,845 Uh, I mean, policy is obviously a thing. 233 00:14:06,845 --> 00:14:10,205 It gets written down, but that's, it's the enactment of policy, which 234 00:14:10,205 --> 00:14:11,735 is a sort of systems effect thing. 235 00:14:12,095 --> 00:14:14,585 And systems are another thing that would seem to be, uh, you 236 00:14:14,585 --> 00:14:16,205 know, other important materials. 237 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,150 Time in particular is one of those things that, you know, we often talk 238 00:14:21,150 --> 00:14:22,830 about services unfold over time. 239 00:14:22,830 --> 00:14:26,340 They're different in that way from physical products, um, because 240 00:14:26,340 --> 00:14:30,060 they sort of don't exist outside of unfolding over time, I would argue. 241 00:14:30,540 --> 00:14:32,850 Um, how did you deal with, with time? 242 00:14:32,850 --> 00:14:36,569 There's a, there's a section on time, timing, and time in. 243 00:14:38,370 --> 00:14:38,939 Yes. 244 00:14:39,089 --> 00:14:41,880 Stefan Holmlid: And I mean in that sense time, of course there 245 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,709 are a lot of different ways of thinking about time, right? 246 00:14:43,724 --> 00:14:47,670 And, and people, uh, in service design probably has their 247 00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:50,640 own way of working with time. 248 00:14:51,060 --> 00:14:52,865 Um, but one of the things that we can. 249 00:14:53,330 --> 00:14:57,530 We can see, and that is also in this description of time as a materialist, 250 00:14:57,530 --> 00:15:00,230 that there are two different ways of thinking to, you know, very 251 00:15:00,230 --> 00:15:01,640 general ways of thinking about time. 252 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,970 And then, which means that we approach time in different ways. 253 00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:07,970 It's the chronological way of thinking about time that time passes. 254 00:15:07,970 --> 00:15:09,230 It's something we can measure. 255 00:15:09,830 --> 00:15:12,800 Um, things happen at a certain point in time, et cetera. 256 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:13,010 Right? 257 00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:13,910 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 258 00:15:13,970 --> 00:15:15,560 Stefan Holmlid: Uh, on that chronology. 259 00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:18,620 And then it's the, uh, um, the other way of thinking about 260 00:15:18,620 --> 00:15:20,090 time is usually called kairos. 261 00:15:21,205 --> 00:15:27,805 Or a tic time as I'm writing in the, uh, in the book, uh, which much more has to 262 00:15:27,805 --> 00:15:33,535 do with the experience of time, um, of, um, uh, you know, something happening 263 00:15:33,535 --> 00:15:41,455 at an appropriate time rather than at a specific, uh, not 1501, but rather 264 00:15:41,455 --> 00:15:42,955 at the time when it's needed, right? 265 00:15:43,950 --> 00:15:44,190 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 266 00:15:44,970 --> 00:15:48,450 Stefan Holmlid: Uh, and those two different ways of thinking about time, 267 00:15:48,630 --> 00:15:53,580 uh, we can see in the way that service designers work and, but maybe they're not 268 00:15:53,580 --> 00:15:57,900 necessarily so good at understanding and dealing with those two different ways. 269 00:15:57,900 --> 00:15:58,800 So thinking about time. 270 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,870 So if we're taking on a chronological, uh, way of thinking about time. 271 00:16:04,785 --> 00:16:11,955 Uh, we actually need to be really, um, good at working with, for example, 272 00:16:11,955 --> 00:16:14,235 if we try to prototype waiting time, 273 00:16:16,635 --> 00:16:22,095 you usually don't make a prototype where you wait a week, which would be, 274 00:16:22,245 --> 00:16:24,105 it would be in, in real life, right? 275 00:16:24,135 --> 00:16:25,690 Maybe, uh, waiting for Yeah, yeah. 276 00:16:25,695 --> 00:16:29,235 To get a response from a doctors or whatever. 277 00:16:29,235 --> 00:16:30,075 Yeah. 278 00:16:30,075 --> 00:16:30,076 Yeah. 279 00:16:32,250 --> 00:16:37,080 So then working with time in that way, you have to, as a material, you have 280 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,360 to actually think really, really hard. 281 00:16:40,110 --> 00:16:44,340 What is then the experience of waiting for a week and how can 282 00:16:44,340 --> 00:16:45,960 I simulate that in a prototype? 283 00:16:47,190 --> 00:16:52,500 Um, which then introduces the chaotic way of thinking about time, um, immediately. 284 00:16:53,475 --> 00:17:00,255 So this mix and understanding this mix and how they co-exist and how we can work 285 00:17:00,255 --> 00:17:04,305 and shape these materials, I mean, that's really, really important to, to see that. 286 00:17:05,714 --> 00:17:09,555 Andy Polaine: Um, yeah, I once did a actually a talk that you 287 00:17:09,555 --> 00:17:12,585 probably saw, um, about service design and talking about time. 288 00:17:12,615 --> 00:17:15,825 'cause it's such a, the perception of time is such a kind of relative thing, right? 289 00:17:15,825 --> 00:17:19,994 And so, as is quite well known, when they started putting dot matrix 290 00:17:19,994 --> 00:17:24,105 displays on bus stops and in train stations, you know where it says, you 291 00:17:24,105 --> 00:17:25,515 know, the next train is in one minute. 292 00:17:25,935 --> 00:17:29,985 There's some research across London underground of like how long a London 293 00:17:29,985 --> 00:17:33,495 Underground Minute is, and it's, it's not actually a minute, but with it. 294 00:17:33,495 --> 00:17:36,705 But it's this idea that if you know how long you have to wait, then waiting 295 00:17:36,705 --> 00:17:39,615 for that amount of time, even if it's a bit longer, doesn't, it's kind of okay. 296 00:17:39,615 --> 00:17:42,675 What's really, really irritating is, is the not knowing is the kind 297 00:17:42,675 --> 00:17:46,425 of death row aspect of, of kind of waiting for a bus or a train and you 298 00:17:46,425 --> 00:17:50,535 not knowing, because what you're really calculating is, should I just walk? 299 00:17:50,830 --> 00:17:56,260 Now, or walk to the next one or get a taxi or whatever versus, um, you know, waiting 300 00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:57,699 for this extra minute or two minutes. 301 00:17:57,699 --> 00:18:00,909 And there was also some research on how much people, what their sort of 302 00:18:00,909 --> 00:18:04,750 hourly rate, uh, what they considered their hourly rate would be for waiting. 303 00:18:05,649 --> 00:18:09,340 I I, I think when I read it, it was like $50 an hour or something. 304 00:18:09,730 --> 00:18:13,570 But there's this thing where it's to do with quality too. 305 00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:18,399 So if you go into McDonald's and you have to wait for ages, well, the, the trade 306 00:18:18,399 --> 00:18:19,990 off that you've made, which is, you know. 307 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:23,550 Crappy food, but you want it quickly his fails, right? 308 00:18:23,550 --> 00:18:26,010 Because you're getting crappy food and it takes ages to come. 309 00:18:26,430 --> 00:18:30,330 And whereas if you go into kind of like a Italian, especially like a 310 00:18:30,330 --> 00:18:35,280 slow food restaurant and you order, uh, a risotto and the risotto comes 311 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,980 within sort of five minutes, well, you know, they've just microwaved, right? 312 00:18:37,980 --> 00:18:40,650 So there's all these kind of trailers or sometimes you want to wait longer. 313 00:18:40,650 --> 00:18:45,330 'cause that part of it is, is part of the joy of the experience is to wait. 314 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,060 And I find kind of times that are really interesting. 315 00:18:48,555 --> 00:18:50,565 Thing to play with and to explore. 316 00:18:50,565 --> 00:18:50,625 Yeah. 317 00:18:50,925 --> 00:18:55,215 Um, yeah, and it, it gets lost a lot in that sort of very process oriented way 318 00:18:55,215 --> 00:18:56,805 of thinking about services, I think. 319 00:18:57,105 --> 00:18:57,645 Stefan Holmlid: Definitely. 320 00:18:57,649 --> 00:19:02,595 And, and I mean time also when we, when we work with time as a material, 321 00:19:02,595 --> 00:19:08,085 it also gives us possibilities to work with pacing, with rhythm, 322 00:19:08,595 --> 00:19:14,985 other things that has to do with our experience of things that happens. 323 00:19:15,675 --> 00:19:16,605 In time, right? 324 00:19:16,605 --> 00:19:16,665 Yeah. 325 00:19:17,145 --> 00:19:20,145 The process view is all about things that are happening and 326 00:19:20,145 --> 00:19:23,415 not so much, and not actually anything about time, just sequence. 327 00:19:24,225 --> 00:19:29,534 Um, so, uh, uh, when we introduce time, both aspects of time, then 328 00:19:29,534 --> 00:19:33,495 we get this possibility to think about rhythm and pacing and just a, 329 00:19:34,034 --> 00:19:35,564 a public transport example again. 330 00:19:35,564 --> 00:19:40,034 Then in Stockholm, they, uh, experimented with. 331 00:19:41,970 --> 00:19:46,710 You know, as always, in larger cities, uh, there is this there, um, buses are 332 00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:50,910 not always on time, uh mm-hmm given the time schedule that they have. 333 00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:56,855 So they, uh, try out a, um, uh, instead of them having, when it. 334 00:19:57,515 --> 00:20:02,225 When the clog is kind of easing up, instead of them having four buses at 335 00:20:02,225 --> 00:20:06,965 the same bus stop, um, that were, you know, at actually at different points 336 00:20:06,965 --> 00:20:12,545 in time, they started having, um, this, the correct pace of the buses. 337 00:20:12,545 --> 00:20:14,795 So they were not allowed to drive. 338 00:20:16,365 --> 00:20:17,985 You know, and, and queue up. 339 00:20:18,285 --> 00:20:23,655 They were only allowed to keep the same distance in time between each other. 340 00:20:23,685 --> 00:20:23,715 Okay. 341 00:20:24,105 --> 00:20:29,235 So people knew that bus 40 will be here every 15 minutes? 342 00:20:29,415 --> 00:20:29,655 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 343 00:20:29,745 --> 00:20:32,085 Stefan Holmlid: That has nothing to do with, with the schedule or anything. 344 00:20:32,085 --> 00:20:32,264 Right. 345 00:20:32,264 --> 00:20:33,285 But with pace and rhythm. 346 00:20:33,825 --> 00:20:34,125 Andy Polaine: Right. 347 00:20:34,155 --> 00:20:34,395 Okay. 348 00:20:34,395 --> 00:20:34,785 Nice. 349 00:20:34,845 --> 00:20:35,145 Nice. 350 00:20:35,145 --> 00:20:38,235 Okay, so they're just all sort of going around the circuit and keeping and 351 00:20:38,235 --> 00:20:39,735 keeping the same distance from each other. 352 00:20:39,855 --> 00:20:40,065 Stefan Holmlid: Yeah. 353 00:20:41,145 --> 00:20:43,095 Andy Polaine: So time, you know, you can kind of. 354 00:20:43,170 --> 00:20:48,300 I see how time gets lost, particularly in a, I mean, I, I would argue that part of 355 00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:52,620 the, one of the things that say digital product design in particular has kind 356 00:20:52,620 --> 00:20:56,370 of brought to the world is, uh, and, and it is actually, it's inherited it from 357 00:20:56,370 --> 00:20:59,730 the kind of startup, uh, sort of Silicon Valley thing, which is that, you know, 358 00:20:59,970 --> 00:21:03,480 everything has to be as, we have to move as an organization, as fast as possible. 359 00:21:03,540 --> 00:21:06,330 You know, speed defacto equals good. 360 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,010 Um, and I think it then. 361 00:21:08,475 --> 00:21:11,175 It doesn't really get kind of considered, uh, that much. 362 00:21:11,175 --> 00:21:15,524 And then there's, there's, you know, there's expectations, um, which I 363 00:21:15,524 --> 00:21:16,605 think are important part of time. 364 00:21:16,784 --> 00:21:19,544 Those examples I gave before about some McDonald's versus kind 365 00:21:19,544 --> 00:21:21,915 of, uh, slow food restaurant. 366 00:21:22,155 --> 00:21:24,824 One of those things of kind expectations versus I. You 367 00:21:24,824 --> 00:21:26,235 know, what's the reality of it? 368 00:21:26,955 --> 00:21:30,645 Um, so those are kind of abstract, but as you start to think about 369 00:21:30,645 --> 00:21:32,895 them, you can start to break them down and start to kind of think 370 00:21:32,895 --> 00:21:34,365 about how you might consider them. 371 00:21:34,665 --> 00:21:38,084 Was this the sort of idea or the intent of the book that you were, you know, 372 00:21:38,084 --> 00:21:41,385 as you start to pull these things apart and examine them perhaps more 373 00:21:41,385 --> 00:21:45,405 closely than they have been before, that you would then start to actually 374 00:21:45,405 --> 00:21:49,185 see things you hadn't considered to be materials, to be things you can actually. 375 00:21:50,130 --> 00:21:52,170 Play with, experiment, with design with 376 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:54,510 Johan Blomkvist: Yeah, to some extent. 377 00:21:54,510 --> 00:21:59,880 I mean, it's been a very involved process, uh, with all the materials. 378 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:04,830 So we started actually with, uh, uh, pitches, uh, material pitches, and 379 00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:09,660 we, uh, asked people to pitch, you know, the most important or one of 380 00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:14,670 the most important materials, uh, in a short format for, uh, first. 381 00:22:14,730 --> 00:22:17,220 Um, and we wrote a few ourselves as well. 382 00:22:17,905 --> 00:22:22,255 And then we had a symposium, uh, and that symposium included a lot 383 00:22:22,255 --> 00:22:25,735 of discussion about materiality and materials, and we give some feedback 384 00:22:25,735 --> 00:22:29,365 to all the, um, material, uh, authors. 385 00:22:30,205 --> 00:22:34,975 And after that, uh, we started the process of, uh, reviewing, 386 00:22:35,035 --> 00:22:37,375 um, the suggestions for materials. 387 00:22:37,375 --> 00:22:39,145 So, and one of the things that we. 388 00:22:39,485 --> 00:22:43,385 Definitely wanted people to think about and make sure that they 389 00:22:43,385 --> 00:22:48,544 could, um, describe about their material was, you know, what is the 390 00:22:48,544 --> 00:22:50,284 role of this material in design? 391 00:22:50,705 --> 00:22:54,155 How is it shaped into more finished form? 392 00:22:54,304 --> 00:22:55,834 What does that process look like? 393 00:22:55,834 --> 00:23:02,450 I. To, you know, give people a sense of what, what they consider the MA material 394 00:23:02,450 --> 00:23:05,990 to be and, and that process of, of using the material as part of design. 395 00:23:06,620 --> 00:23:11,450 So, yeah, and I mean, like I said, we've discovered a lot of materials, but also 396 00:23:11,450 --> 00:23:17,210 aspects, elements of the materials that we hadn't previously thought about. 397 00:23:17,210 --> 00:23:20,750 So from that point of view, it's been a really interesting, uh, journey. 398 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,490 Andy Polaine: Were there any surprises of things that people 399 00:23:23,490 --> 00:23:26,700 pitched and came up with, but things that you hadn't yourself thought 400 00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:28,860 of as a material of service design? 401 00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:33,480 Stefan Holmlid: Yeah, I, I, I mean, one of the authors, uh, suggested conversations. 402 00:23:33,855 --> 00:23:34,215 Andy Polaine: Hmm. 403 00:23:34,515 --> 00:23:35,295 Stefan Holmlid: As material. 404 00:23:35,775 --> 00:23:35,925 Andy Polaine: Hmm. 405 00:23:35,925 --> 00:23:36,645 Yeah, I saw that. 406 00:23:36,945 --> 00:23:37,275 Stefan Holmlid: Yeah. 407 00:23:37,275 --> 00:23:41,145 I hadn't been thinking about conversations as a material to form. 408 00:23:41,655 --> 00:23:46,875 Um, but, uh, uh, you know, when, when talking about it, it becomes 409 00:23:46,935 --> 00:23:51,135 really obvious that yeah, this is one of those super important materials 410 00:23:51,165 --> 00:23:53,805 in service designing that is. 411 00:23:54,485 --> 00:23:57,335 And probably in many different, not necessarily only in 412 00:23:57,335 --> 00:23:59,705 service designing, but uh, um, 413 00:24:00,335 --> 00:24:01,235 Andy Polaine: definitely in service designing in 414 00:24:01,235 --> 00:24:01,595 Stefan Holmlid: general. 415 00:24:01,865 --> 00:24:02,585 Andy Polaine: That was Jonathan. 416 00:24:02,705 --> 00:24:03,155 Is it Yan? 417 00:24:03,155 --> 00:24:04,385 It is probably Yan. 418 00:24:04,385 --> 00:24:04,865 Is it Ron? 419 00:24:04,865 --> 00:24:06,875 YY yeah. 420 00:24:06,935 --> 00:24:07,235 Yeah, yeah. 421 00:24:07,685 --> 00:24:09,975 Um, and Johan, you, you did behaviors I. Yes. 422 00:24:10,455 --> 00:24:14,175 Uh, you talked about, tell, tell us about behaviors as a, as a material. 423 00:24:14,895 --> 00:24:19,905 Johan Blomkvist: Um, well, uh, as you know, behaviors are difficult to design 424 00:24:19,905 --> 00:24:24,945 directly, so it's interesting, I think, from this feedback point of view. 425 00:24:25,004 --> 00:24:30,135 Um, so feedback is, uh, a theme of, uh, of ours in the book. 426 00:24:30,135 --> 00:24:30,555 I guess. 427 00:24:30,555 --> 00:24:34,395 Uh, we talk a lot, uh, about feedback and how feedback, what it looks like. 428 00:24:35,145 --> 00:24:35,925 Um. 429 00:24:37,815 --> 00:24:44,115 We know some from behavioral psychology, uh, about what it means 430 00:24:44,685 --> 00:24:50,745 to design, uh, for behaviors, what we can do to influence behaviors, the 431 00:24:50,745 --> 00:24:52,785 tools that we have available to us. 432 00:24:53,205 --> 00:24:57,165 We have choice architecture as one of the things that we can play around with as 433 00:24:57,165 --> 00:25:00,585 designers and both use and misuse, right? 434 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:01,170 Yeah. 435 00:25:03,584 --> 00:25:06,014 It's a difficult material to pinpoint. 436 00:25:06,014 --> 00:25:10,814 And I think the format, like it, it's almost worth writing a whole book. 437 00:25:10,814 --> 00:25:12,615 I think about that specifically. 438 00:25:12,615 --> 00:25:16,155 And of course there has been books written about behavioral design. 439 00:25:16,155 --> 00:25:20,534 So, um, it's a big topic and I, I chose to write. 440 00:25:22,034 --> 00:25:28,335 About some aspects of behavior and, um, I try to focus as much as possible 441 00:25:28,335 --> 00:25:34,155 on, you know, what has been done to influence behaviors or to, to get 442 00:25:34,754 --> 00:25:42,165 specific behaviors to appear or in, be able to influence in, in a, um, in a, 443 00:25:42,645 --> 00:25:46,064 in a positive way, how people behave in different situations, I guess. 444 00:25:46,064 --> 00:25:46,125 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 445 00:25:46,875 --> 00:25:50,565 It, it's kind of pretty contentious this though, as well as a, as an idea, right? 446 00:25:50,565 --> 00:25:52,580 Because of obviously, you know. 447 00:25:53,775 --> 00:25:56,385 Part of it is, first of all, there's a, I think there's a school of 448 00:25:56,385 --> 00:25:58,695 thought which says you, well, you can't design behaviors, you know, 449 00:25:58,695 --> 00:26:00,225 people just, people do what they do. 450 00:26:00,705 --> 00:26:04,095 Um, which is obviously not true because we, we know there's all sorts of things 451 00:26:04,095 --> 00:26:08,295 that nudge our behavior, um, either intentionally or unintentionally. 452 00:26:08,625 --> 00:26:12,256 But then the, you know, the other aspect is who, you know, who's to say. 453 00:26:12,575 --> 00:26:14,375 What the better behavior is. 454 00:26:14,405 --> 00:26:17,675 And I think this is a trap that certainly a lot of my students fall into. 455 00:26:18,095 --> 00:26:21,635 Um, I think, uh, there, and it's, it's very kind of good-willed based. 456 00:26:21,725 --> 00:26:25,475 I want people to be, be engaging in the political process more. 457 00:26:25,475 --> 00:26:27,965 I people should be more sustainable in their behavior. 458 00:26:27,965 --> 00:26:32,000 And there's a lot of people should be X, Y, and Z, but there's, there are, 459 00:26:32,540 --> 00:26:34,325 who is the kind of arbiter of that? 460 00:26:34,505 --> 00:26:37,625 Did you manage to kind of navigate that at all when you were looking into this? 461 00:26:38,365 --> 00:26:43,250 Johan Blomkvist: Um, I think I stayed clear of it as much as I could actually, 462 00:26:43,790 --> 00:26:45,685 so I took the, the easy way out there. 463 00:26:46,165 --> 00:26:46,465 No. 464 00:26:46,465 --> 00:26:46,645 Yeah. 465 00:26:46,645 --> 00:26:51,685 But I think one of the things that is very important in, in, in 466 00:26:51,685 --> 00:26:55,435 relation to that is, is this idea of feedback actually that, you know. 467 00:26:55,845 --> 00:27:00,435 Knowing the material and knowing how the material feeds back or how the 468 00:27:00,435 --> 00:27:04,545 material reacts to whatever you're doing, and the time spans of that. 469 00:27:04,605 --> 00:27:08,475 I mean, that's the whole thing that we could open up even more, I think 470 00:27:08,475 --> 00:27:13,965 in the book that like understanding your material, regardless if you're 471 00:27:13,965 --> 00:27:15,970 a carpenter or if you're, you know. 472 00:27:17,415 --> 00:27:22,215 If you're a, uh, someone who paints or, yeah, play the piano or whatever 473 00:27:22,215 --> 00:27:26,895 it is, like, there's always an understanding of what you're creating 474 00:27:26,895 --> 00:27:30,855 and how that feeds back and you're, you're training yourself in being able 475 00:27:30,855 --> 00:27:36,314 to predict, I. The change that you are inflicting or imposing or you know, 476 00:27:36,645 --> 00:27:38,324 that comes with whatever you're doing. 477 00:27:38,745 --> 00:27:38,925 Andy Polaine: Yeah, 478 00:27:38,955 --> 00:27:43,544 Johan Blomkvist: and I think that's like part of what we also try to 479 00:27:43,544 --> 00:27:46,274 do with the book and in relation to behaviors, but also in relation 480 00:27:46,274 --> 00:27:47,175 to a lot of other materials. 481 00:27:47,175 --> 00:27:51,554 I mean, some people say that you can't design service and I, I guess 482 00:27:52,125 --> 00:27:53,715 some of us say that you can't. 483 00:27:54,495 --> 00:27:56,114 Some, some of the author might say that. 484 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,660 So this idea of feedback, like that's, that's one way to understand the materials 485 00:28:00,660 --> 00:28:06,210 and think about, you know, when does material, uh, feedback, like when do you 486 00:28:06,210 --> 00:28:10,710 get, talk back from the material and in terms of behavior, it could be months 487 00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:15,720 or years after you do something that you actually see a change in behavior or. 488 00:28:15,995 --> 00:28:19,355 You know, if it's about clicking the right thing on a website, if you want 489 00:28:19,355 --> 00:28:22,295 to force people to do something, for instance, you can see it immediately. 490 00:28:22,295 --> 00:28:25,175 Because you can just measure that, okay, these are, that many people 491 00:28:25,175 --> 00:28:27,125 actually now click this way. 492 00:28:27,125 --> 00:28:33,095 So, and yeah, figuring out how those things, like the things that you do, how 493 00:28:33,095 --> 00:28:36,335 that relates to how people behave and things like that, that's really difficult. 494 00:28:36,335 --> 00:28:38,825 And I don't think you can read about that. 495 00:28:38,825 --> 00:28:42,695 It's something you have to test and try and, and learn about. 496 00:28:42,965 --> 00:28:43,235 Uh. 497 00:28:43,855 --> 00:28:47,875 Uh, about this and I, I, I mean, when writing the book and thinking about 498 00:28:47,875 --> 00:28:51,745 feedback and thinking about service, it was really interesting to think about 499 00:28:51,774 --> 00:28:53,784 how the materials influence each other. 500 00:28:53,815 --> 00:28:57,865 Like how, uh, conversations and influence behavior or how 501 00:28:57,865 --> 00:28:59,695 behavior influences thinking. 502 00:28:59,815 --> 00:29:01,855 Yeah, thinking is another material that we have in the book. 503 00:29:02,455 --> 00:29:06,445 Um, but also understand these feedback loops and how they can sort of. 504 00:29:07,420 --> 00:29:11,980 Um, interact with each other, but also to be, to be able to figure out like, 505 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,440 what can you, can I do for this service? 506 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:20,380 Like, how can I, how can I understand the current behavior in this service 507 00:29:20,770 --> 00:29:23,920 and what does that mean for the feedback that I'm going to get? 508 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,520 Like, is there a threat of layoffs in this service that I'm entering 509 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:28,900 into and I'm trying to change? 510 00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:29,740 Um. 511 00:29:29,945 --> 00:29:32,615 Like how, how can I approach this material? 512 00:29:32,615 --> 00:29:36,185 And that you have to be, you have to develop sensibilities for, for 513 00:29:36,275 --> 00:29:38,075 different types of situations. 514 00:29:38,075 --> 00:29:42,035 And I mean, understanding humans and understanding how they might 515 00:29:42,035 --> 00:29:47,105 be, um, how they might respond to your actions as a, as a designer. 516 00:29:47,105 --> 00:29:49,025 I think that's really, really interesting. 517 00:29:49,595 --> 00:29:50,495 Andy Polaine: And non-humans, right? 518 00:29:50,555 --> 00:29:53,285 I know there's a section on data and there you get the sort 519 00:29:53,285 --> 00:29:54,395 of, ethics gets touched on. 520 00:29:54,395 --> 00:29:57,485 I can't remember if there is a section on, on ai. 521 00:29:57,515 --> 00:29:57,845 Is there. 522 00:29:58,605 --> 00:30:00,855 As a, as a sort of, as a material? 523 00:30:01,335 --> 00:30:02,175 Stefan Holmlid: Not directly. 524 00:30:02,745 --> 00:30:06,345 Andy Polaine: Would, would you have, if you were to, you write it now? 525 00:30:06,345 --> 00:30:07,275 'cause when, when did it come out? 526 00:30:07,275 --> 00:30:08,805 It's, it's been out for how long now? 527 00:30:08,805 --> 00:30:09,105 Roughly? 528 00:30:09,105 --> 00:30:09,465 The book Since 529 00:30:09,465 --> 00:30:10,605 Stefan Holmlid: December last year. 530 00:30:10,605 --> 00:30:10,785 Since 531 00:30:10,785 --> 00:30:11,205 Andy Polaine: December. 532 00:30:11,205 --> 00:30:11,685 Right, right. 533 00:30:11,685 --> 00:30:15,375 And so obviously the, the writing time and, and it takes a while 534 00:30:15,375 --> 00:30:16,995 for, from the final manuscript. 535 00:30:16,995 --> 00:30:17,415 Mm. But 536 00:30:17,445 --> 00:30:17,925 Stefan Holmlid: AI has 537 00:30:17,925 --> 00:30:18,075 Andy Polaine: been 538 00:30:18,075 --> 00:30:19,815 Stefan Holmlid: around since 59, you know, so it 539 00:30:19,815 --> 00:30:21,165 Andy Polaine: has been, been around for a long time. 540 00:30:21,165 --> 00:30:23,655 Was that a conscious decision not to include that or did 541 00:30:23,655 --> 00:30:24,945 no one pitch that idea? 542 00:30:24,945 --> 00:30:27,615 Or was it um, you know, no, it wasn't pitched. 543 00:30:27,975 --> 00:30:31,125 I say it now because there's obviously been a talking of conversations. 544 00:30:31,125 --> 00:30:34,830 There's obviously been, I. Quite a few cases of, of particularly chatbots. 545 00:30:34,830 --> 00:30:35,070 Right. 546 00:30:35,070 --> 00:30:37,830 Just kind of, they just get kind of launched into a, a, 547 00:30:37,830 --> 00:30:39,210 a customer service offering. 548 00:30:39,210 --> 00:30:39,540 Right. 549 00:30:39,540 --> 00:30:43,200 And, and cause, cause kind of havoc in some respects, or at least, you know, 550 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,240 if not havoc, then, uh, things go wrong. 551 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,510 But actually in some cases real, actual, uh, problems. 552 00:30:48,750 --> 00:30:48,930 Stefan Holmlid: Yeah. 553 00:30:48,930 --> 00:30:51,810 So, so I think, I mean, one, one way of thinking about it is with 554 00:30:51,810 --> 00:30:56,280 the, uh, uh, one of those frameworks we, we have in the book with. 555 00:30:57,595 --> 00:31:01,405 Traditionally designed materials, catalyst materials, and, and 556 00:31:01,405 --> 00:31:03,655 co-design material materials, right? 557 00:31:03,655 --> 00:31:10,555 So when we think about AI as being part of a finalist service, in what, in what ways 558 00:31:10,585 --> 00:31:14,995 can we form what it does in that service? 559 00:31:15,825 --> 00:31:20,265 And is it then a traditional design material or is it a co-design material? 560 00:31:20,265 --> 00:31:24,915 And how, if we view it as a co-design material in that situation because, uh, I 561 00:31:24,915 --> 00:31:29,355 mean, in my view, uh, the final design of a service is always done in the situation. 562 00:31:30,225 --> 00:31:36,015 Um, so we prepare stuff that will be used for that final touch of design in the end. 563 00:31:36,015 --> 00:31:36,315 Right? 564 00:31:36,585 --> 00:31:36,855 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 565 00:31:36,885 --> 00:31:37,185 So if 566 00:31:37,185 --> 00:31:39,975 Stefan Holmlid: you then view AI as part of that, as a co-design 567 00:31:39,975 --> 00:31:41,830 material, then what do we need to do? 568 00:31:43,649 --> 00:31:47,219 Or if you view it as a catalyst material, uh, as something that will 569 00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:51,330 in the organization help the people who tries to understand what they're 570 00:31:51,330 --> 00:31:57,810 doing, uh, helps them drive change or, or become better in service delivery, 571 00:31:58,139 --> 00:32:02,550 not delivering lousy food, uh, you know, with a waiting time of an hour. 572 00:32:03,330 --> 00:32:03,750 Um. 573 00:32:05,140 --> 00:32:10,030 So I think this, this, uh, um, little framework we have is, is really, really 574 00:32:10,030 --> 00:32:16,300 important when we think about what it means when we say that something could 575 00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:22,210 be a material of service design, because we have to make a bit of a, a, you know, 576 00:32:22,450 --> 00:32:28,720 a bit of analytic thinking on if I view this as a traditional design material. 577 00:32:29,595 --> 00:32:30,465 Let's say ai. 578 00:32:31,005 --> 00:32:34,515 Yeah, and it, it's actually something that I believe I can form. 579 00:32:35,805 --> 00:32:39,435 And then my actions as a designer, as a, as a person who tries to form 580 00:32:39,435 --> 00:32:41,175 that will be of a certain kind. 581 00:32:41,835 --> 00:32:44,955 But if I view it as a co-design material, then my ways of working 582 00:32:44,955 --> 00:32:46,425 with it will be totally different. 583 00:32:46,695 --> 00:32:47,025 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 584 00:32:47,115 --> 00:32:48,465 Stefan Holmlid: And that goes to all those materials, right? 585 00:32:48,465 --> 00:32:52,155 So like behavior, um, is it something we try to design directly 586 00:32:52,155 --> 00:32:54,405 and form, uh, very, very much 587 00:32:54,465 --> 00:32:56,835 Andy Polaine: and sort of shape inness of an authorial way? 588 00:32:56,835 --> 00:32:57,760 You mean exactly? 589 00:32:57,764 --> 00:32:57,955 Yeah. 590 00:32:58,060 --> 00:32:58,270 Stefan Holmlid: Yeah. 591 00:32:58,330 --> 00:33:02,260 Or is it the catalyst material behavior is something that we need to understand 592 00:33:02,260 --> 00:33:06,669 and we can view it as a, as a material that will help us do other things. 593 00:33:07,030 --> 00:33:07,270 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 594 00:33:08,439 --> 00:33:12,159 So, you know, it's one thing to, to put a book like this together. 595 00:33:12,159 --> 00:33:15,100 Um, you know, and you've got all this collections and there's a lot of thought 596 00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:18,460 and thinking around service design and what do you hope people will. 597 00:33:18,490 --> 00:33:22,360 Will do with the, with what you've come up with here, how, 598 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,040 and maybe apply it to their work. 599 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:24,700 Johan Blomkvist: Yeah. 600 00:33:24,730 --> 00:33:27,640 This is, um, this is a tricky one actually. 601 00:33:27,730 --> 00:33:32,920 Um, I, you'd think that we had a better idea about how people will use it, 602 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:40,480 but, uh, the, the, uh, we talked about this, I mean, before we started writing 603 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,520 the book, I guess, or when we just got started with it, that we wanted to write. 604 00:33:46,995 --> 00:33:49,275 We've been thinking about this for a long time and we wanted to, to 605 00:33:49,275 --> 00:33:52,485 write a book about this because it's really interesting to us. 606 00:33:53,175 --> 00:33:58,575 And I think, uh, that we said, or one thing that we said at least, uh, that 607 00:33:58,575 --> 00:34:03,825 stuck with me was that, you know, we're, we're service design nerds. 608 00:34:03,825 --> 00:34:07,905 Let's write a book for service design nerds who might 609 00:34:07,905 --> 00:34:09,435 also find this interesting. 610 00:34:09,585 --> 00:34:14,145 Um, and I think that is what we did. 611 00:34:14,235 --> 00:34:19,560 Um, but I. Of course you don't have to know a lot about service design, 612 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:26,130 I think to read the book and, you know, have it mean something for you. 613 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:32,940 Um, I think definitely it can help you expand your idea about design, 614 00:34:32,940 --> 00:34:40,319 what design can be, and what you can work with and for in design. 615 00:34:41,009 --> 00:34:47,040 I think it can be really valuable for teachers of design since they might 616 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,109 be able to think about using, for instance, the categorization that we 617 00:34:52,109 --> 00:34:59,819 have suggested, um, what kinds of, uh, designing they need to teach and 618 00:34:59,850 --> 00:35:03,870 think about in their, uh, curricula and things like that when they develop. 619 00:35:04,529 --> 00:35:04,919 Um. 620 00:35:05,790 --> 00:35:06,270 Things like that. 621 00:35:06,270 --> 00:35:06,330 Yeah. 622 00:35:06,330 --> 00:35:10,740 So yeah, I, I, yeah, I think there, there, there are many recipients, 623 00:35:10,830 --> 00:35:14,640 uh, potential recipients at least of, of the book or, yeah. 624 00:35:15,330 --> 00:35:15,600 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 625 00:35:15,660 --> 00:35:17,640 No, that's definitely, I can imagine. 626 00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:20,640 I mean, it's stimulated some, some thinking for me for teaching. 627 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:20,970 Sure. 628 00:35:21,330 --> 00:35:24,120 Stefan Holmlid: I mean, it also gives an individual designer the 629 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:29,069 possibility to think about what kind of designer am I, what kinds of. 630 00:35:30,990 --> 00:35:35,190 What kinds of materials am I confident working with? 631 00:35:35,580 --> 00:35:36,870 How do I want to develop? 632 00:35:37,170 --> 00:35:41,670 Um, maybe also seeing new ways of thinking about materials that you have 633 00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:42,990 been working with for a long time. 634 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:43,710 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 635 00:35:44,009 --> 00:35:48,509 Stefan Holmlid: Um, and, and so it, it also, and also for companies, right? 636 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,990 What kind of a company are we, are we a company that are working with co-design? 637 00:35:51,990 --> 00:35:52,620 Mainly? 638 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,230 Then how do we talk about these traditional design materials 639 00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:59,730 and how do we make sure that we. 640 00:36:00,930 --> 00:36:03,900 In cases when we need that, uh, have the capacity and 641 00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:05,400 competence to, to work with that. 642 00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:06,120 Andy Polaine: Yeah, 643 00:36:06,450 --> 00:36:07,680 Stefan Holmlid: I talked about that before, right? 644 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,330 It's generative in that sense. 645 00:36:09,330 --> 00:36:09,420 Yeah. 646 00:36:09,420 --> 00:36:13,770 It gives the possibility to think about where am I, where do I wanna go? 647 00:36:13,860 --> 00:36:17,340 Uh, what kind of design practitioner am I, what kind of design practices 648 00:36:17,340 --> 00:36:18,810 do we, do we make possible? 649 00:36:19,470 --> 00:36:19,770 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 650 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,080 Johan Blomkvist: When we talk about the book, um, with. 651 00:36:22,175 --> 00:36:27,485 Practitioners, uh, or when I talk about the book, uh, with practitioners, a lot 652 00:36:27,485 --> 00:36:31,355 of times they, they have suggestions for materials that they're like passionate 653 00:36:31,355 --> 00:36:34,145 about, that they want, oh, you should have this material in the book. 654 00:36:34,475 --> 00:36:35,465 It's so important. 655 00:36:35,495 --> 00:36:37,715 And they also recognize some materials, and some materials are 656 00:36:37,715 --> 00:36:39,635 like provocative to some of them. 657 00:36:39,635 --> 00:36:44,765 So I think, I think there's emotional elements of, uh, why it might be, uh. 658 00:36:44,965 --> 00:36:46,255 Fun or interesting to read the book? 659 00:36:47,065 --> 00:36:49,645 Andy Polaine: I, I seem to remember, I can't remember now 'cause it was 660 00:36:49,645 --> 00:36:52,975 a while since I read it, but there was a, the aim to sort of create some 661 00:36:52,975 --> 00:36:55,225 kind of repository of these things. 662 00:36:55,225 --> 00:36:57,325 Is that still a plan or not? 663 00:36:58,560 --> 00:36:59,190 Stefan Holmlid: Yes. 664 00:36:59,190 --> 00:37:04,920 So, uh, uh, we, the symposia thing, it started out as a way of thinking 665 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,430 about whether we could create a, a materials library for Yeah. 666 00:37:08,490 --> 00:37:12,480 Um, with this materials or service design, kinda framing. 667 00:37:12,660 --> 00:37:16,860 Uh, so we're, uh, we're running that. 668 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,890 Um, it's still in, uh, uh. 669 00:37:20,490 --> 00:37:23,220 You know, under construction, kind of, of Okay. 670 00:37:23,220 --> 00:37:23,790 Label. 671 00:37:23,879 --> 00:37:29,339 Uh, but there is a, a website where we will be, uh, um, collecting, uh, 672 00:37:29,370 --> 00:37:34,620 suggestions for new materials, uh, and also then having a, a process where 673 00:37:34,620 --> 00:37:38,459 there will be a feedback loops for, for people that are suggesting materials, 674 00:37:38,580 --> 00:37:41,339 um, to develop them and to publish them. 675 00:37:41,339 --> 00:37:45,029 And so they will be available, uh, for everyone in, in the end. 676 00:37:45,060 --> 00:37:45,330 Andy Polaine: Okay. 677 00:37:45,944 --> 00:37:48,495 Alright, I will, uh, I'll get to that in a second of where 678 00:37:48,495 --> 00:37:49,785 people can find you online. 679 00:37:49,875 --> 00:37:53,415 Um, but before that, 'cause we're coming out to time, as you know, the, the 680 00:37:53,415 --> 00:37:57,404 show is named after the Ray and Charles Eames film Powers of 10, and it's about 681 00:37:57,404 --> 00:38:00,075 the relative size of things in the universe and different levels of Zoom. 682 00:38:00,075 --> 00:38:03,044 And it's always been the way I've found it easiest to explain, uh, 683 00:38:03,134 --> 00:38:04,365 thinking about services actually. 684 00:38:04,845 --> 00:38:10,455 So the one, uh, final question is what one small thing is either overlooked 685 00:38:10,484 --> 00:38:14,205 or could be redesigned that would have an outsized effect on the world? 686 00:38:15,885 --> 00:38:19,905 Johan Blomkvist: So my sort of focus and 687 00:38:22,155 --> 00:38:26,535 what's it called when you can't let go of one thing, you know, uh, like mono. 688 00:38:26,540 --> 00:38:26,790 Passion. 689 00:38:27,915 --> 00:38:28,575 Passion, okay. 690 00:38:28,575 --> 00:38:28,815 Yeah. 691 00:38:28,815 --> 00:38:29,265 Passion. 692 00:38:29,265 --> 00:38:31,215 I, I was going to say mono. 693 00:38:31,485 --> 00:38:35,715 I'm a monomaniac, uh, when it comes to prototyping and, uh. 694 00:38:36,465 --> 00:38:38,565 Representing, uh, your thinking. 695 00:38:38,565 --> 00:38:41,685 So externalizing going from something that's in your head to 696 00:38:41,685 --> 00:38:43,905 putting it out in the world somehow. 697 00:38:44,835 --> 00:38:50,085 And I think designers in general maybe are good at that, but I think 698 00:38:50,085 --> 00:38:54,975 in service design it's been a little bit overlooked and I think we should 699 00:38:55,035 --> 00:38:58,335 teach and practice a lot more. 700 00:38:59,265 --> 00:39:05,445 The process of materializing service, different ways of doing that, different 701 00:39:05,445 --> 00:39:10,185 ways of making it accessible to yourself and to others for co-design processes 702 00:39:10,185 --> 00:39:12,255 or for traditional design processes. 703 00:39:12,255 --> 00:39:16,815 Then if we want to make that distinction again, um, and I think that would have 704 00:39:16,815 --> 00:39:22,634 a huge impact if we could develop the practice of externalizing service to make 705 00:39:22,634 --> 00:39:24,975 it easier to work with these materials. 706 00:39:24,975 --> 00:39:25,035 Yeah. 707 00:39:25,635 --> 00:39:27,165 That's such a great answer. 708 00:39:27,375 --> 00:39:27,735 I love it. 709 00:39:28,275 --> 00:39:29,085 Andy Polaine: Uh, Stefan. 710 00:39:29,535 --> 00:39:33,135 Stefan Holmlid: Yeah, that's always hard to follow up a great answer. 711 00:39:33,135 --> 00:39:33,315 Right? 712 00:39:34,395 --> 00:39:35,385 But no pressure. 713 00:39:35,410 --> 00:39:35,770 I'll try. 714 00:39:36,015 --> 00:39:36,885 Uh, yeah. 715 00:39:37,245 --> 00:39:40,665 You want will, you will just give me help tomorrow. 716 00:39:40,725 --> 00:39:40,995 Right. 717 00:39:40,995 --> 00:39:46,575 But, uh, no, but one, one thing I, I've been working with the 718 00:39:46,575 --> 00:39:48,165 meeting between design and the. 719 00:39:48,555 --> 00:39:52,395 And the public sector for a very, very, very long time 720 00:39:52,395 --> 00:39:55,305 now, um, since 2003, somewhere. 721 00:39:55,395 --> 00:40:02,475 And, uh, I think one thing that is often overlooked in, when, when working with 722 00:40:03,105 --> 00:40:09,134 that meeting with between design and public sector is how zooming out is done. 723 00:40:09,255 --> 00:40:10,154 Andy Polaine: Mm-hmm. 724 00:40:10,575 --> 00:40:15,525 Stefan Holmlid: So zooming out from the specific, uh, um, you know, meeting 725 00:40:15,525 --> 00:40:21,315 with a, with a doctors or whatever, um, the zooming out is usually done 726 00:40:21,315 --> 00:40:23,835 through, uh, through the service. 727 00:40:23,924 --> 00:40:27,555 And you think that it's a service, but it's actually not. 728 00:40:27,645 --> 00:40:27,944 Right. 729 00:40:28,335 --> 00:40:33,495 It's actually the materialization of the societal contract. 730 00:40:34,065 --> 00:40:34,154 Mm-hmm. 731 00:40:34,484 --> 00:40:35,265 Or the right. 732 00:40:35,325 --> 00:40:37,095 You have, um. 733 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,200 And that of course looks different in different, uh, uh, you know, in 734 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:42,759 different political systems, et cetera. 735 00:40:42,819 --> 00:40:47,799 But it's still the fact that if it's public sector, it's not a service. 736 00:40:48,490 --> 00:40:52,660 So I usually say that public precedes service in public service, right? 737 00:40:53,230 --> 00:40:53,440 Yeah. 738 00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:55,150 Um, and that's something. 739 00:40:55,210 --> 00:41:00,430 So swimming out to the service world is kind of, maybe not the thing we 740 00:41:00,430 --> 00:41:04,600 should do, but zooming out into the public world is probably the more. 741 00:41:05,279 --> 00:41:07,650 From my point of view, at least the one that is overlooked. 742 00:41:08,279 --> 00:41:08,640 Andy Polaine: Good. 743 00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:09,360 Thank you very much. 744 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:10,290 Another great answer. 745 00:41:11,009 --> 00:41:14,490 So I made a little URL for the book on with my, because of the, the 746 00:41:14,490 --> 00:41:15,779 actual publishers one's very long. 747 00:41:16,110 --> 00:41:22,410 Uh, so if you go to PLN me, that's kind of pal me slash uh, materials, dash 748 00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:27,270 of dash sd, you'll find a link, uh, to the publisher's website for the book. 749 00:41:27,690 --> 00:41:30,660 Um, where can people find you both online? 750 00:41:30,660 --> 00:41:31,620 I'll put 'em in the show notes. 751 00:41:32,670 --> 00:41:33,210 So, 752 00:41:33,210 --> 00:41:37,410 Stefan Holmlid: uh, I'm mainly, I'm, I'm so old, so I'm mainly on 753 00:41:37,410 --> 00:41:41,760 LinkedIn, uh, and of course on the university and on Scholar, right? 754 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,630 That's my slow, uh, social media kind of place. 755 00:41:45,780 --> 00:41:46,050 Andy Polaine: Okay. 756 00:41:46,530 --> 00:41:50,670 Stefan Holmlid: Um, I can be found on, on that bird platform. 757 00:41:50,790 --> 00:41:54,540 Uh, I never do anything there anymore, but that's another question. 758 00:41:54,540 --> 00:41:54,630 Andy Polaine: Yes. 759 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:55,705 Are you on Mastodon? 760 00:41:56,670 --> 00:41:56,940 Stefan Holmlid: No. 761 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:58,680 Andy Polaine: Oh, I thought you were okay. 762 00:41:58,680 --> 00:41:59,250 Stefan Holmlid: Get on there. 763 00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:01,710 Prob, I probably have an account, right? 764 00:42:01,710 --> 00:42:02,430 But I'm not on. 765 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:03,390 Okay. 766 00:42:03,450 --> 00:42:03,750 Alright. 767 00:42:04,650 --> 00:42:05,700 Johan Blomkvist: Uh, how about you, Johan? 768 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:07,710 Yeah, very similar for me. 769 00:42:07,770 --> 00:42:11,130 Um, ResearchGate also, if you're a researcher, that's where you can 770 00:42:11,130 --> 00:42:12,840 find, uh, the things that I do. 771 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,940 I think I update most, uh, manually update my publications and stuff 772 00:42:17,940 --> 00:42:19,830 like that on, uh, on ResearchGate. 773 00:42:19,830 --> 00:42:24,120 But o otherwise it's LinkedIn or, uh, scholar, I guess. 774 00:42:24,180 --> 00:42:26,520 Yeah, or the university website. 775 00:42:26,700 --> 00:42:26,820 Yeah. 776 00:42:26,940 --> 00:42:27,270 Andy Polaine: Okay. 777 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:28,800 I'll put all the links in the show notes. 778 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,009 Uh, thank you so much for both being my guests on Power of Ten. 779 00:42:32,279 --> 00:42:32,700 Thank you. 780 00:42:33,060 --> 00:42:33,480 Stefan Holmlid: Thank you. 781 00:42:34,879 --> 00:42:37,910 Andy Polaine: You have been watching and listening to Power of Ten, you can find 782 00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:41,720 more about the show on pal.com where you can also check out my leadership coaching 783 00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:45,950 practice online courses, sign up for my irregular use newsletter Doctor's Note, 784 00:42:46,009 --> 00:42:50,509 and more thoughts and stuff around service design to, uh, if you have any thoughts, 785 00:42:50,509 --> 00:42:53,960 then you can put them in the comments, uh, below on YouTube or get in touch. 786 00:42:54,319 --> 00:43:00,410 Uh, you'll find me as @apolaine on pkm.Social, uh, on Mastodon. 787 00:43:00,470 --> 00:43:03,439 You'll find me on LinkedIn and obviously my website and all those 788 00:43:03,439 --> 00:43:04,490 links will be in the show notes. 789 00:43:04,510 --> 00:43:05,020 Two. 790 00:43:06,100 --> 00:43:09,160 Thanks for listening and, uh, and watching, and I'll see you next time.