Welcome to Alumni Live: The Podcast.

These are conversations with Grand Valley State University film and video

graduates about the industry, the film, video, major and alumni profiles.

Hi, this is Liliana Bartels and welcome to another episode

of the Alumni Live podcast.

Today we're talking about producing for independent films and for

corporate commercial work with, Breana Malloy and Gillian Noonan.

So thank you guys so much for coming in.

I appreciate you taking the time.

So just to kind of start out, when did you guys graduate and

what sort of work do you do?

Oh yeah, so I graduated in 2021, and I run the gamut with production work.

I work at a production company, Ingalls Pictures where I help produce content

and videos, as well as I help run the company, so I'm their Integrator.

And I also, on the side, do independent narrative work.

A lot of short films, a couple features, so I kind of just like to do it all.

I've done some music videos yeah, anything producing, I'm probably doing it.

Yeah, I also graduated in 2021.

And I am a Project Manager at Ideology Productions, which is a

production company and creative agency, also here in Grand Rapids.

So I mostly work in the corporate and commercial landscape but a lot like

Breana, I've done some short films, a feature film and just really enjoy

the aspect of all the different types of projects that we get to work on.

What got you guys into film and what has your career journey been and really what

kind of started that passion for it?

I got in a little later than I feel like a lot of people.

Like I didn't realize I wanted to work in video until my senior year of high school.

I decided to make videos for my senior AP English class final project.

And I just got hooked from the process right then and there.

And from there I had already decided on Grand Valley and I was like, Oh great,

they have a film and video program.

This works out wonderful.

I've figured out what I want to do.

And ever since then I just graduated and started off at a smaller production

company here in Grand Rapids and then shifted on over to Ideology.

So I've been very lucky to have the opportunity right here in Grand Rapids.

Yeah, I have a similar timeline, Gillian, with how my stuff got started.

I actually, right out of high school, I was planning to go for psychology.

I was like, I'm gonna go and get my doctorate and be a therapist.

And then I was like, you know what?

That sounds like a lot.

I have to deal with my own problems and help other people.

So it was like, I love helping people, but I don't think this

is what I can do right now.

It was two months before school started and I was like, what do I do?

I was a theater kid.

I loved singing.

I loved acting.

I used to make up little music videos in my head.

So I was I love movies too.

I could probably do this film thing.

I knew nothing about classic cinema.

I had no past experience, so I genuinely went in with no

idea what I was getting into.

And I got lucky and I loved it and I didn't change my major.

Fast forward, by junior year, I found out I liked producing, kept

up with that, and yeah, I just worked a lot, and I got very lucky.

Luck paired with hard work.

I emailed a lot of production companies and Ingalls Pictures emailed me

back with a very interesting email.

He was like, I have an opportunity for you, and I was like, I

have no idea what this is.

So I started out as, my boss's assistant and quickly moved into producing.

And then now I'm helping run the company.

I like to say it's luck mixed with talent and hard work because, it's not

everybody's reality, but I'm very grateful how it's all happened, especially because

I thought I was going to be a therapist.

That's a great point.

I think the imposter syndrome is always there.

But then whenever I talk to colleagues and friends, they're always like, you've

worked really hard for this as well.

And I'm like, no, that's a good point.

We've done both.

I like that.

In the idea of producing, what do you guys love about it?

I think my favorite thing from the very start was that I get to be involved

in every single part of production.

I get to be there when the first idea is conceptualizing.

The idea is not even written out as a script yet.

All the way through editing post production to the premiere.

I don't know, that's just the most fun for me.

And then I think the other thing I love about it is that people

at GV know me, I love people.

I love talking.

I love yapping.

so I just love the people aspect of it.

And the fact that not only am I working with all of these people, but I can

help foster an environment where it's not just work, but it's fun.

And I like to say a lot of films and I hope all my shorts and

feature sets feel like summer camps.

You're having fun, you're working, you're doing something, you're making

something, but it's also just fun.

So I would say that's my favorite part, the people and the big picture.

Yeah, literally copy and paste.

That's exactly what it's like to produce.

It's fun to be in a position where you get to, like Breana said, work

with everyone and constantly learn, like you're in a spot where you

have to touch every department.

And so you're constantly learning about how everything works how to better

support people and just really be the person and the problem solver that people

can come to at any point throughout pre production, post production and then

you also get to pick craft services.

So that's another good one.

You get to pick the food.

So you could always potentially lean into things you might like

in that department as well.

I know that you guys both work for companies in Grand Rapids, but

you also do indie films, whether that be shorts or some features,

maybe some documentaries and stuff.

What are the differences in producing between, for say, the

summer film project versus like a commercial or corporate work.

Is there a very stark difference?

What do you guys notice from that?

Yeah, I totally, I didn't even bring up summer film.

Yeah that's a very fun project, and if students are listening, definitely apply.

I just think it's really fun.

And yeah, I think the biggest difference for me.

I think there's a lot of differences, but it's also very similar.

You still have to be creative even when it's corporate work and a

client is coming to you with an idea.

Maybe they have certain stipulations you have to follow or you're like, I

have to sell this product or this thing.

At the end of the day, you're still trying to convey a story.

So Pear, we're trying to sell this kind of out of world idea of this guy growing back

, after dying, he's coming back from a pear tree so that's what you're selling to an

audience instead of an actual product.

So I think there's a lot of similarities.

I think the biggest difference for me is just, I work different parts of my

brain but they're both creative, but they're creative in different ways.

I just feel that there's no constraints on creativity when I'm working on an indie

film, because it's just people behind it.

There's no bigger company, there's no one else involved in it, it's just you and

the Director talking through this idea, your crew's coming to you with ideas.

Yeah, I think that's the biggest difference, but I, genuinely like both,

and I'm sure I'm about to agree with whatever Gillian says on it as well.

No, I agree completely.

I think creative direction is a big difference because a lot of times in

corporate commercial you start off with one idea and then their managers and their

lawyers come in and decide how things need to be shifted compared to an independent

where it's just the internal team really making it whatever they want to be.

Budgets are definitely like a big difference in the independent world,

you're fundraising or you're finding backers but in the corporate world,

you're getting paid to do a job.

So at the end of the day, you are just a service provider.

And so you want to do an amazing job for the client and keep them coming back.

That's always the goal with corporate and commercial is to have happy clients.

And sometimes that does mean you get to lose the vision that you started

with, not a hundred percent, but just a little bit you'll lose it along

the way, depending on what they want to do and what they want to say.

Budget is such a great point.

There's a trade up there for sure, but it feels good to me when I can hire my

friends who do a lot of narrative work, like grips and stuff, and I'm like, I

have this really good paying job for you.

And yeah, the money's already there.

Yeah, because a lot of times when you're doing independent, it is free work, which

we don't want it to be free work ever.

We're always working, Producers are always trying not to make it free

work, or just low paying work and it's more of a passion project.

And so that's very true in terms of if you're friends with the Producer

and you get to work on something you really enjoy, we will 100 percent try

to get you on a higher paying job.

It'll come back around.

And you just have to find the balance as all freelance workers do, no matter where

you're in video or a different industry.

It's just finding what you can do and what works.

Looking into the idea of independent work Breana, I know that you are

well acquainted with Joel and his summer film stuff, and you do a

lot of other short films and stuff.

Gillian, I'm not entirely sure if you do a lot of short film stuff,

so looking into that, from your guys perspective, what does a Producer do

in filmmaking, like in an indie film?

Within independent film, there's also different sizes.

So if it's a smaller set, you're doing just about everything.

You're budgeting, you're scheduling, you're casting, you're

crewing, you're scouting you're ordering food and ordering gear.

And then maybe on a bigger project, you're able to hire people to do certain things

within the producing aspect as well.

But you're pretty much just trying to make the whole experience as easy and flawless

for all the crew members as possible.

If I had to bring it down to one sentence.

Yeah, I completely agree with that, and I think one thing I try to tell when

I explain it to people who don't know film, I always tell people , being a

Producer is just being a manager, or the person running the show at a regular job.

You are running this production, so you need to know everything

that's going on, you're involved in every department in some way and

you need to know what's going on.

Yeah.

Get all the information whether you're behind the scenes or in

front of the scenes for sure.

So going into that the difference between an Executive Producer and a

Co Producer, because I know that those are terms that are widely used, we

see them in the credits of movies.

Breana, you might have more insight, but my understanding would be an Executive

Producer is someone who has just maybe a general overseeing things, they're

donating money to a project, maybe that money comes with a certain amount of

input into the vision and the creative of what they're doing, and then a Co

Producer is often working more in the production, more as a Producer maybe

it's someone that their official title isn't Producer, but they just had a big

hand in the pre production process doing something else, maybe they get a Co

Producer credit That's my understanding.

I haven't had a lot of bigger things that have Executive Producers, other

than, we're doing fundraising, someone donates a certain amount of money,

they get an Executive Producer credit.

In my experience again, I'm not an expert on this because

I mainly do indie films here.

But I've worked on a couple with people kind of outside of the area and

yeah, Executive Producers, a lot of times they're either giving money or

they're some kind of big connection.

A lot of times , actors, they'll give money and then they'll have a little

creative input or something like that.

So yeah, Executive Producers are definitely powerful.

But they're not doing the boots on the ground work usually.

They'll oftentimes help, some will help with paperwork, those sorts of things.

They're doing very high end things.

And then, Co Producers yeah, so they're helping with the Producer.

A lot of times they'll have specific portions of a movie they're helping

with, like much bigger sets.

A Producer I worked with, she was on A Ghost Story and she was telling me, she's

like, yeah, I ended up starting as an actress and they needed a lot of producing

help and I do a lot of producing so I just helped them with this portion of the

film and I became a Co Producer on it.

So yeah, sometimes Co Producers usually helps with producing tasks

and I oversee them so they do a little bit of everything but I know

on a lot of other films they'll just be helping with a certain portion.

A movie I did a couple summers ago, I helped with the Michigan

portion of the shoot because they shot in three main locations.

And so I was a Co Producer.

But I only worked on the Michigan part.

That helps me define it.

Thank you so much.

So in thinking about this we know that obviously a Producer different

from a Director but to our listeners out there, How is it distinctly

different from a Director?

Yeah, this is my favorite thing because love you mom, but she constantly is

like, Oh yeah, Breana's a Director.

And I'm like, I am not a Director mom.

I always say to people that a Producer and a Director relationship

is like a work marriage.

You just need to know each other inside and out, and so they work very closely

together, but I think the main thing that separates a Producer is just

that they're focusing on logistics.

There's creative elements to it, especially working with a Director,

but you are focused on the logistics, you are focused on all of the minute

details, even sometimes down to, did you guys figure out where to put the trash?

And so I think that's the biggest difference that separates them is, yeah

they're looking at all of these small, minute details, they're making sure

that this business, each film is like a business, so this business is being

formed, and the Director is just trying to think about the vision, and talk with

the actors, and focus on these creative elements Gillian, hit me with more.

My notes that I'm looking at literally say Director's creative vision

and Producer's logistic vision.

So agreed a thousand percent.

And I think it's always an exciting dynamic when you're working with a

new Director because you get to really figure out what the process looks like.

And that's always a fun time seeing how different people work together.

And I think that leads into just your crew relationships in general, like as

a Producer, you're just looking to always find what people need in order to do their

job best and a lot of times a Director you're trying to separate things from

the Director in terms of problems that might come up or things that you can't do.

In pre production

you're being as realistic as possible for sure.

So they're aware of what they can do and how they want their project to come out.

But then once it hits like production time, you're acting as a wall to keep

things away from them, so they can really focus on what matters to them, which

is the creative compared to all the, where the trash goes type of problems

that you have when you go to a location.

So thinking about that you guys mentioned pre production, and thinking about

trying to be as realistic as possible, you tell people yes, you tell people no.

When you get a new project, no matter if it's like, corporate, or

indie film, or that kind of stuff, what's your first initial thought?

Like, what are, like, Top couple things that your brain immediately

thinks of okay, let's get this started.

Like, what do I need to check off in my mental checklist

before we get into this project?

For me, it's often locations.

Because having availability of what you're trying to do.

Film is a visual medium and so the story that you're telling heavily relies on

where you're recording and there's often a lot of constraints in independent

filmmaking on budgets to rent locations.

Budgets to pay for travel to locations, budgets to get art and production design

for the locations that you're in so that's always where I like to start.

When I'm reading a script or working with someone new, working on a new

project is where are we going to be?

And is that as crucial to the story as the Director may think, or is

there certain ways to work around what they're looking to shoot?

Yeah, and then you said just like when you're even thinking

about joining a project, right?

Like What are the first things?

Yeah, I'm going to do this project or if the project's just started and

someone's given it to you what do we need to immediately think about

before we really dive into like, hey, what's the vision of this?

yeah I think for me similar thing to Gillian is like I of course always ask

for the script before you sign on to a project Unless like Joel I've worked

with enough times like, cool, I'm in.

But I think my main thing is, yeah, I get a script, I read through it,

and when I'm reading through it, I read through it once just to be like,

Let's figure out what this is about.

Let me see how I feel about it and then the second time I read through it

I usually do it on my ipad because I can take quick notes and i'll note out

specific locations or weird props that we might need and I I usually am like

what is the hardest part to do is it this weird machine that we need to build?

Is it they want to film in the Taj Mahal I'm like what is going

to be the hardest thing to figure out and can I figure it out?

And if not is the Director going to budge on it at all?

How can we get creative?

And then I go back to the Director and I just talk with them.

And i'm like what is this relationship like because to me no matter how cool

a project is if I don't mesh well with the maybe other producers on

board or with the director themselves.

It's not going to be beneficial for anyone because as a Producer, I need

to know that I am going to have a good relationship with all of the

people working side by side with me.

So that way the people under me, that I am helping make this project,

are taken care of and they feel like they have a good team above them.

So yeah, I've definitely said no to projects before because I think the

people are great, but I'm like, the way you want to make this movie is

maybe different than how I would do it, and I don't want us to waste time.

Yeah.

I think that's a great point.

Filmmaking, as we all know, is very, cohesive and it

relies heavily on teamwork.

And I could not agree more that you have to enjoy the people you're

doing it with and enjoy the process because at the end of it, you

won't be as happy with the product.

Even if it's beautiful, even if it's stunning, even if, you're super proud

of it in terms of how it turned out, you want to have the good memories

because at the end of the day, you're with the same people for 12

to 14 hours for however many days.

So that's a great point.

Yeah, because you can love the people on a project or be best friends with someone,

but if you don't work well together, this probably isn't a great idea for everyone.

Yeah, and so many film friendships are both personal and professional.

So it's, you're always riding the balance of understanding what people have going

on in their personal life and how you're asking them to work on professional

things and juggling the emotional aspect?

I don't know if that's the right word, but you're always in this middle ground

and that's actually, Breana, considering you said you wanted to work in therapy

and things like that there you go.

You're kinda a little bit of balancing and juggling how everyone's

communicating and what can get done based on what people can do.

I have to agree with that as well because it's not only boundaries, but it is

really even if you want to work with your friends, they could be your best friends.

They could be like, just, Oh my gosh, I love hanging out with these people.

But the second that you get on set and you need to like, get a lighting

set up, you need to get the camera ready and people are barking orders.

That is what it's like on set, and sometimes people will mesh together

really well and understand the urgency at hand to get the shot.

And sometimes it just doesn't mix well and I feel like that is really good to

know because you could really want to work with your friend group, and I've had this

happen to me myself where we had a film that we were shooting, it was a little

passion project, and on day two was great.

Day one, we messed around for about two and a half hours, and the director got

really mad at us because she was like, you need to stop dilly dallying, and I was

like, okay, we need to focus and lock in.

So there's definitely a really good aspect of that to just keep in mind

between sets as people go through.

So in thinking about that Breana, I know that you mentioned when we

talked about you looking over a script and wondering, Hey, is the director

going to push and pull on this?

Are they going to be willing to budge?

Because we know someone can be really creative, but sometimes an idea

isn't always immediately feasible.

So with that how do you go about balancing creative visions with

financial and logistical constraints, because we know that financial stuff,

specifically during indie filmmaking, can really make or break something.

Yeah, I think my biggest thing is, out of school it was just the aspect of never

just saying no, which sounds horrible.

You can't just say yes to everything.

I'm not a yes woman by any means, but if you can't do something in

your head, you're like, no, we can't do that, which is probably true.

You probably can't do it.

But it's I don't see how this is plausible.

This is what I think we could do.

What are you envisioning because sometimes a director already

has an idea for how to do it.

When I was working on my first feature with Brennan Huizenga, the dude gave

me a script based in the 1960s and I was like, We have no money, Brennan.

How are we going to make a complete period piece?

And he was like, Oh, I already got it covered.

My grandpa's got a classic car.

I'm really good at VFX.

I can do this and this.

And I was like, all right, cool.

And so there were things he had to compromise on and I would be like.

We can't do that because it will cost 10, 000, but maybe we could do this.

And so yeah, it's not saying no outright.

It's what if we did this instead or tried this come with solutions.

Even if you're like, it's probably not a great idea, at least give

them something to brainstorm off of.

Yeah.

And I think that's just like a good thing to learn for film and for just

any professional career, honestly, is that as you move into a real job, you

never want to just have a problem.

You're always looking to bring solutions to conversations.

And that's a really good point.

That's just a great thing to learn whether you want to be a Producer

or a DP or an audio engineer.

You got to have your backups on backups ready to go so you can always

perform to the best of your ability when you're working on something.

Yeah, this reminded me it's really easy to constantly be reactive,

but you have to remind yourself to be proactive, never reactive.

So it's like, coming up with those solutions as being proactive, trying to

figure it out instead of just reacting.

Yeah, the more you produce, the more details you learn I don't have a

really specific checklist, it's all up in the noggin these days, but if

Producers were to truly write out every detail that you have to be aware

of for a shoot, it's a lot pages long and it's just constantly getting into

the practice of thinking about all the little details and like Breana

said being as proactive as possible.

So you don't come into a situation where you have a big problem.

. In thinking of stuff with pre production this is such a big question that I

swear everyone struggles with key factors that go into funding for films.

Where does money come from, what's legal, what's not, maybe strategies

for marketing, perhaps, just, because we don't want to gamble to earn money.

Oh no, I guess I'll start.

I will say as a Producer, crowdfunding is my least favorite part.

Money stresses me out.

So if it stresses you out, just remember, almost every

Producer is stressed out by it.

But yeah, I think the biggest thing I learned when I was leaving

college, is there is a big difference between something like GoFundMe

and a crowdsourcing platform.

I've only used Seed and Spark.

But the biggest thing is like GoFundMe, you are not

supposed to provide incentives.

That's like a whole different legal thing.

There's a couple of different ways you can do it.

But I think the biggest thing is just having really good visuals, a good

pitch, explaining your story, and really telling people why it matters at all.

The newer generations, they care about meaning and that what they're

doing is going towards something.

And so it's really talking to the people you're asking money from

and telling them where the money's going and why it should matter.

And yeah, incentives are a big part of that, oh, you can get a copy of the movie,

or sometimes people are just like if you donate more than ten dollars, one of the

dollars goes to this fund that's related to the movie, that'd be a cool idea.

Maybe you're not getting all the money, but that's cool.

But there's also a way you can get 501c3 so that way, they

can write it off on their taxes.

I did not do this for Collins Film.

And another movie I was on had it non profit status, but I didn't do it.

But you can do that.

There are multiple different companies that are 501c3s that you basically,

from what I know, you apply to them.

If they accept your script, the money has to go through them and they do

somewhat monitor how the money is spent.

So you have to keep up on your receipts, but you should be doing that anyways.

But that is a really cool way if you are planning ahead to, have a bigger

incentive for people to donate, especially larger sums of money because they're

like, I can write this off of my taxes.

That's a big part about moving into bigger producing work is like accounting

and taxes and things like that.

Which is just a whole nother discussion.

But yeah, we used for my last feature film, "Walter Grace and the Submarine",

we had a donator that went through the Gotham that collects the money and

then sends it back and then they get the tax write off so it is possible.

I think in person events often get people excited.

For my last short film we did like a Euchre tournament because we're all

Michiganders at the end of the day, right?

So why not have a Euchre tournament?

Half the money goes to the winners.

Half the money goes to the production.

We did a fundraiser concert.

That one, fair warning, if you're producing a film and then you also choose

to produce an entire concert, you're kind of like really adding to your workload.

So keep that in mind, learned that the hard way.

But it was a fun event where we got people to come out to a bar and basically charge

admission that then went to the film.

If you have any, artist friends, I know a lot of people will do, art

auctions through social media, but, you have to think about getting the

art to people, like, basically every idea you have, even if it's a great

idea, it's gonna come with more work.

So the first chunk of producing will really just be fundraising,

like Breana mentioned, I also really don't like fundraising because it

is a little stressy and it feels a little weird to ask people for money.

So you have to balance this thing we might not totally enjoy, but at the end

of the day, all that work will pay off because we'll have the funds to do what

we really want to do, which is work on the creative and the production.

So you can get creative with it.

There's different ways to do it.

It's just finding the balance between the time you have and

how much money you need to make.

Yeah, what you guys did for that short was so cool.

I was very impressed.

Because not only were you raising money for your film, but you were

also showcasing and highlighting artists in the community, which I

just think is the coolest thing you could do because it's just one art

form raising up other art forms.

Thank you.

That's really sweet.

Yeah, it was for our film.

Breana mentioned Seed and Spark, after you guys did Seed and Spark for the

Collins film, I jumped on and then did it for Walter Grace and the Submarine.

So you're really just like building a community here and figuring out

what works for the people and how you can try to emulate that because

everyone is really hard workers.

The Michigan film scene's really cool and it's cool to be a part of the boots

on the ground community around here.

Gillian, I know that you mentioned the idea of accounting.

Which probably sends a chill down a lot of people's spines.

We're film majors.

Not all of us are good at math and that's okay.

But with that, would you say that is one of the biggest challenges, getting into

larger scale productions as a Producer?

And if there are any other big challenges that you guys are thinking of, we

throw those on the table because I know that keeping receipts is not fun.

Yeah, I think the key is always the second a receipt is in your hand,

you take a picture of it immediately.

Because the way I always do receipts is I just have an ongoing spreadsheet that

lists, the date, who bought it, where it came from, a link to the receipt,

what it's going to be used for and then you just build it out day by day.

Having someone potentially maybe like a PA or someone on set that can maybe

be doing that if you're off doing other things, because you put it off

for a day or two, or you put it off all the way until post production.

And that's a very scary thing.

So constantly keeping up on receipts and, where money is being moved.

Like I always know if any money is coming out of the account, I'm listing what

exactly it was for and where it went because next thing you know it's February

and it's tax season and you're trying to get your account all the information

and if you're trying to recall when you filmed six months ago, bad news.

I think I had that happen recently on a production where we had just

wrapped on filming, and two days later I get a receipt for 50 dollars and

reimbursement, and then also, the next day, another one for 30 dollars for

reimbursement, and I was like, oh crap.

So I definitely feel that.

Breana, do you have any insights on that for any sort of big challenges if it is

receipts, that's perfectly fine as well.

Yeah, this is definitely the most fun part of producing.

Hands down that was sarcasm guys.

It's not but it's a necessary evil.

I will say I got really lucky because I made a friend in

college who is an accountant.

And they do not specialize in film accounting, but they taught me a lot.

And so I'm very grateful for them.

There are services you can use to help you, but if you don't have the money

to pay for that, there's definitely ways to get around it for free.

But.

Yeah, I would say the biggest thing that's helped recently is we started

implementing this at Summer Film.

I didn't even make it.

It was Jenna who works at Grand Valley, but we have a Summer Film

card binder because, Gillian, I don't know if you've experienced this, but

someone always ends up losing the card.

And half the time they find it, but they always end up losing it

and they're like, where's the card?

I have a friend who PAs a lot and the card fell in the crevice

between my car door and my seat and it took me 20 minutes to find it.

And so we have a card binder.

I think it's here right now.

Cause we're about to start Summer Film, but, yeah, it's like a little binder.

It has the card, any pertinent information that you might need on it.

We don't usually keep the pin in there just in case if you lost the whole binder.

I don't want people using the card because they know the pin.

Granted you could still probably use it, but one safety factor.

But it's got the card in it.

If you're having problems, call this number, which is usually just me.

This is the zip code and then things you can't purchase on it because

there's sometimes restrictions depending how big the company is.

But then it also has a log.

So whoever checks it out has to sign that they took it out.

They write what they were getting, the time, and it's genuinely so

helpful because you know how much harder it is to lose an entire binder.

It's still possible, but you can find it, and so that helps a lot there is a

pocket for receipts, but I totally agree with Gillian as soon as you get those

receipts back, take pictures because to this day, sometimes I'll be like, for

my own personal freelancing stuff, I'll be like, yeah, I like do this later.

I don't.

So do it when you have it.

Don't listen to yourself.

You might be wrong.

But yeah, the other thing I noted was if you're doing it especially like a

big feature, be separating out those expenses in the moment, because when it

comes to tax season, your accountants will want you to have separated things

in different categories, like equipment versus meals versus like pay if you're

paying people, so you need to have those things categorized already and I know

all of this sounds really stressful, but genuinely, It is okay to reach out

to people who are already doing this I don't want to speak for Gillian, but I'm

assuming if you reached out to either of us, we would be happy to give you

some notes anything that we already had.

Anyone in Michigan, most of us, we want to share knowledge because

that's how we learn things.

So don't be afraid to ask people and maybe make a friend in accounting,

while you're at Grand Valley.

Yeah, spreadsheet examples are super useful.

And you can make them pretty.

That's one fun thing about accounting is the spreadsheets.

You can make them super cute.

You can add colors.

You can do whatever you want with it.

And so then maybe when you're opening up and you're putting in

receipts and you're not having the most fun, you're in an environment

where you're enjoying the visuals.

And that makes it just a little bit better every time.

Cause you gotta do it either way.

So might as well make it look good.

Feels a lot better knowing that, you know, it could be nine in the

morning and you could be putting in numbers over and over again, but your

spreadsheet could be pink and that just makes things a little bit better.

You could add a little bit of glitter just in case, I feel like that's really

lovely to think about and it's really good to think about because quite

often as students, I know that we don't always think about the idea of taxes

and tax season in the film industry.

For people, especially who are looking for freelance work and are looking for

those passion projects to be like, this is something to consider is you will

have to do a little bit of what we might call busy work and it's not really bad.

But it is just something that's part of the overall process.

So to wrap up on the idea of talking about Indie filmmaking

and passion projects and stuff.

Do you guys have a best moment from an indie film or moments, perhaps.

Every time you do a project you have like new favorite moments because it's just

always so great working with the people.

But my most recent one is with, The short film, It Might Get Weird, is that it

was a one shot, it was a ten minute one shot, so it was a lot of rehearsal and a

lot of everyone crossing their fingers.

And it was also a night shoot, it was an overnight shoot.

And so one of my favorite moments, on set was when we finally got the take

and we were like, yes, we did it.

Like five minutes after we're like, like clanking champagne

glasses, the sun is rising.

So we're like, thank God, because the lighting would have been messed

up if we did that one more time.

And then.

We were shooting on a cabin up north and it was on a lake.

And so then the whole crew just went out and watched the sunrise

and drank champagne and just like talked about all the hard work we

just put in the last three days.

And it's really moments like that, where you get through it and you're really

happy with the product and you get to celebrate with the people that made it

possible because every single person on set does a really important job.

So those are always my favorite moments.

It's like there's so many good moments on set.

I will say that like I could probably just talk for hours about all the

people and how much fun we had the first thing that came to my mind

was just like working on indie sets.

You're not always staying in the nicest places.

But the people are always great.

And so yeah, the film I worked on a couple summers ago that I was co producing on.

We ended up filming in Marquette and I almost forgot it's been too long.

But our makeup artist came from Germany because she was friends with the Director.

And so she flew out from Germany.

There's people from all over the place.

The other Co Producer, she was staying in Chicago at the time, but lived in

California and now lives in London.

And a little over a year ago, I planned a trip, and I'd never been out of the

country, flew to London, met up with Emily, the Co Producer, and then hung out

in London for a week, and then we both flew to Germany, and hung out with Yanina,

the makeup artist in Berlin for a week, and that's just genuinely one of the best

moments ever, because we were all just working on this movie, became friends and

now have a whatsapp group chat and I flew across the ocean by myself because I just

love them so much now and I think that's one of my best moments is just all the

friendships that come from these sets.

Those are all wonderful moments.

Oh my goodness.

That actually, that is so lovely to hear.

And especially again, like the people that you meet and the friends that you

can make from these types of things, it isn't necessarily yes, it is work,

but like it's a community of people.

And it just, it feels so good to know that out there are people and filmmakers

who not only are passionate about the work that they do, but they're really

passionate about the relationships that they create with others.

And that we all come together because we want to make something great.

And it's wonderful to hear.

So to turn from that a little bit, we're going to get into

corporate and commercial producing.

Which, depending on how you look at it, could be the more

or less fun subject of this.

So it really is just subjective onto that.

We're gonna go through a couple of the same questions that we had beforehand.

Just thinking about the difference between producing for corporate

commercial work versus indie if you notice any stark differences between

the two other than, getting paid for a job instead of crowdfunding for

it, but anything else that you might think of just like right off the bat.

I don't want to say the level of professionalism because you're

always professional on set.

But in terms of how you're communicating with clients is obviously very

different than a passion project.

You're trying to help them reach their goal, and it's often a little less

cohesive than an independent project.

And you're often on tighter deadlines.

I think, yeah, one of the biggest things is when I first came out of college,

like I didn't take Producing for Clients.

For what reason?

I don't know.

I learned a lot about just, like, even writing emails like I said, I

like to talk, so my emails were very lofty and one of the first things my

boss taught me was, get to the point, so a lot of it's just structure like

that, that maybe you're not used to.

I think with commercial work, like you were saying, Gillian, is just

working with the client so closely and really keeping up that relationship.

Also, I don't know about on your end, but for me, often clients do not respond

if they're busy because this is just one thing on their plate but this is my entire

job and I'm like I need you to give me the notes on this video so like a big

difference there is it's like you're on a deadline and you're also waiting for

someone else and it can be very stressful because it's not just a filming day and

then you're in post production for a while and there's no firm deadline per se.

You are on a deadline and half the time you're not even waiting on you.

It's the client and I totally understand they are working on a

million different things and you are just one of their priorities.

But yeah, that's a big difference.

Sometimes I'm like, I've emailed them twice and they haven't answered.

Yeah, no, I agree 100 percent and like giving a lot of grace to clients as well

because Breana mentioned like this is our whole world so we're constantly thinking

about all that stuff, but on their end they're thinking about what they do

and this is just a little part of it.

So always finding the right balance of giving them all the information they

need to make their best decisions.

But then also never overflowing them with information they

don't really need to know.

And so the email point is exactly the same, whether it's an email

or whether it's in person, you're just trying to figure out the right

balance of information constantly.

. I think when you work on narrative films, everybody knows what's going

on, everybody's got the same idea, or similar plans, but yeah, with client

work, you are the expert in this.

Sometimes you have to explain how a production day is going to go.

Or you have to explain the process to them at the beginning a lot

of times if it's a new client.

So yeah, it's fun that you're the expert and you get to teach them about

filmmaking, and usually it's really fun for them because a lot of them

are in corporate work, and when we have clients on set, they're like,

Oh, do we get to use the slate today?

So yeah it's a lot more communication at times, or you explain things

that maybe are just inherent to you at this point, but it's also fun.

You get to see filmmaking, and making videos through someone else's eyes.

Yeah, we work in a very cool industry, and I personally forget it, and then

it is like getting to work with people that are new to it, when you're like,

oh no, this is really cool, and I'm very lucky, and it's great to get to spread

that with new people, whether they're clients, whether they're new people to

the film world, and often, clients don't know exactly what they're looking for

because they don't know the process.

So you're always a little bit of a guiding light.

And then you wait for a while for them to respond.

But when they do, we're hopping back in immediately.

We're taking a short break to tell you about the Dirk Koning

Memorial Film and Video scholarship.

Here's Gretchen Vinnedge remembering Dirk Koning.

The Koning Scholarship enables students to get that kind of an education, to be

a good filmmaker, to be able to express their voice and to continue Dirk's dream.

For more information, and to donate to the scholarship, visit

the link in the description.

Now, back to the show.

What skills do you guys think Producers are required to have to go into

commercial slash corporate producing.

Definitely organization a good open communicator because you have

to communicate with the client.

Usually a lot of times, like I'm the point of contact for the client.

And so I also have to communicate all of that with the crew

also on the business end.

And so, yeah, you have to be a good communicator.

But I guess my other one will say that it's really important to me is that you

are a people person slash team player.

Yeah, no, that's definitely a big one.

It's a full ego aside type scenario.

And that's for commercial and for freelance.

Like, it's just always being as empathetic as possible.

And that's just a good human thing, but to each their own.

I would say.

Oh project management.

I'm a project manager compared to a producer and there are

definitely some differences.

But with producing, you have multiple projects going on and they're all

at different stages of production.

And so whether you're using a specific software, whether you make your own cool

spreadsheet, like however you want to do it works great, but you definitely need

to have, I would say, and I think it's really important to have a good system for

organizing your thoughts and what needs to get done and to do's for different things.

Because you got a lot of details to keep track of and you forget one little thing

you, miss responding to one email, like three days go by, like in the corporate

world, three days is a long time.

And so preparing best as possible.

So you always know where everything is at, no matter what project you're

talking about is really important.

Gillian, I had no idea when I graduated, like I know now,

what the true difference between producing and project management is.

I think you should give, a quick explanation to people because I think it

would have helped me so much if I knew.

For sure.

I would say I know all companies work a little differently but I'll just talk

to how like Ideology works specifically.

We have Project Managers and we have Producers.

The process starts off with a PM and a Producer and a Creative Director

working together to see what the client wants to do, having that

kickoff meeting, Creating the budget writing the estimate, things like that.

And then as it shifts into pre production, the Producers, they're

doing the scheduling, they're paying to film, they're gathering crew

and cast and all of those things.

And then they are the ones actually on set filming.

And the Project Manager is just supporting whatever possible and then once we get

into post production the Project Manager will often take more of a bigger role

because that's when I would say like a schedule really sits in, in terms of you

have three rounds of revisions a lot of clients require compliance files, whether

that be like audio descriptions or VTT so you're planning for things like that,

you're getting those things, once the video's wrapped, and then you're also

double checking paperwork because you have talent releases, VO releases, music

license, stock licenses, like you're just touching all of the extra details that

comes to wrapping up a project in the corporate world and different clients all

require different things, so often you're figuring out what each person requires for

archiving, I imagine different companies do it differently, but Producers, mostly

pre production, a little bit of post, and Project Managers handling the

support and making sure everything's getting checked off along the way.

Do you guys have any stories of your biggest challenges working with

commercial producing, or best moments?

I think working in spaces that are public spaces, or there's other people

around, is always an interesting one.

I am mid twenties now, but if I'm working on an independent

project and we're filming in public, we're student filmmakers.

Cause people are just more lenient with that.

Obviously rights and usage are one thing.

But if you're just in an area that flies that's a good thing.

But then with client work, you have to shoot everything that you need to shoot.

They're paying for a production day.

And if you miss something in freelance work, you could potentially

add an extra quarter day or half day or shift some things around.

And so making sure that wherever you're filming, you can get through

what you need to get through.

There can be people around, there can be a lot of noises,

there can be a lot of traffic.

So paying attention to how a shoot might be held up when you're scouting

or when you're planning you can get yourself in trouble there.

Yeah, scope of work is super important in pre production for sure.

Because sometimes the clients will even come with big ideas and

you're like, this is a great idea.

Our current scope and budget allows for this.

If we wanted to do this is how much it would cost.

So I guess I couldn't think of like a specific example off the top of my head.

I'll think of it later and be like, dang it.

But that's honestly, I wasn't someone who was always super

comfortable talking money.

And so that was a challenge at first be like very upfront about

costs and how to communicate that effectively and professionally.

And so that was definitely a challenge.

But one really fun moment I did have on set was we were doing

a commercial for a company.

They needed clips for the Today Show.

And they were like, maybe we'll use it in future things.

And so we were like, okay.

And they wanted dogs in it.

And it was really last minute.

And so I was like, we can use my dog.

He's smart.

He can roll over.

And the guys were like, all right, cool.

So we get this location this house.

It has an upstairs, but it's all just one room and yeah, we were just hanging out,

upstairs getting ready for a shot and I was like, my dog will just hang out.

No, have someone there to watch the dog at all times.

Because it had a half wall for where the stairs were, and my dog just thought it

was a really big ledge he could walk on.

So he jumped over the ledge and flew down the flight of stairs.

And it was fine, but it was still to this date the craziest thing

that's ever happened on a set.

I didn't think he would jump over a railing and fly down to the bottom

of the stairs and then just get up.

But yeah, it was pretty funny once he was okay.

That's great.

That's amazing.

Just thinking about differences between being a freelance Producer, being an

employee Producer, this does lend itself to the idea of again, indie filmmaking

versus corporate work and stuff like that.

Do you guys see any differences?

Because I know that you do both a little bit of freelance work.

A lot of us probably coming of those who are graduating, we're

probably going to be in post grad and looking for freelance work.

Is there anything that you noticed within your first couple of years of being

in the industry that might have been a big difference between those two roles.

Yeah, I moved right into employee work after college and I think that

was extremely useful for my freelance because I actually got first hand

experience of how to solo produce a project under the umbrella of safety and

learning of professionals in my company.

And so I think that was a really cool experience because when

you're freelance producing, like you're tippity top, you are client

connection, you are doing everything.

And so you really got to have a good gauge on how to do things.

Producing throughout college and then seeing how you can assist and learn from

other professionals will benefit you a lot when you start building connections enough

to just get your own freelance projects.

Yeah.

I've been all over the place.

When I first started at Ingalls, I was just helping out.

I was very open to being able to do my own projects.

And so I was a freelancer originally 1099.

But as I started doing more work I became an employee just because

a big factor of that is if, are you working there long term?

Is it taking up a majority of your time?

Like there are, legal stipulations to those things that you can

look up if you're ever in a situation where you're like.

Should I be an employee?

Blah blah blah.

In my opinion now, this is totally my opinion.

I didn't find it was worth it to be freelance on commercial work unless I knew

I was making more than like 100k a year.

Just because the taxes are a lot when you're a 1099 worker, you have to

save like 25 percent of your income.

So if you're making 100k, you gotta save 25%.

And I know a lot of Cam Ops and DPs, it's really good for them because they can

make a lot of money around here doing it.

And then they can write off a lot because they have a lot of

equipment and things like that.

But for a Producer, , I don't need a big camera.

Like, I can't write that off.

What am I gonna write off?

I could get a new computer, but I don't need a new computer all the time.

And so the taxes were just abysmal.

They were killing me.

I don't recommend it if you're trying to have stability.

Also because if you're a 1099, employee, which is, freelancing,

you usually don't get healthcare.

You have no true protection.

Liability is a big factor.

If you are a freelancer, the liability is usually mainly on you.

Because companies will protect themselves and they, especially big

companies, will not protect you.

So with that, if you're going to be a freelancer, it is a very good job as well.

Especially if you are smart it's a very good way to make money.

But be smart, read your contracts.

Even as an employee, read your fricking contracts.

I don't read the terms and conditions when I agree to whatever Apple asks me.

And that's fine.

No one does.

But read your contracts when you're signing away your labor.

And yeah, just be aware of what you need to do to protect yourself.

Because as a freelancer, you are a business, you are a

product and it's important.

It's giving you the stability.

Even just the smallest things of like when you're filling out paperwork to

give to a company, you can get an EIN, which is an employee identification

number, and it's protecting you from putting your social security number

on all of these pertinent documents.

A lot of times you need it to start a business banking, I'm probably butchering

this someone who talks about this for a living was probably like girl what but

genuinely it's creating you as a business, and it's gonna make your life easier.

If you were to get sued if you are keeping your finances separate for your

business from your personal like getting paid you get paid through the business

account and then you pay yourself.

I think that was absolutely wonderful.

I agree a hundred percent.

And I'm also learning every time, every freelance job, you learn more and more

about how to better handle things.

So it's accepting that, that learning is going to come throughout the years anyway.

So you just got to be excited to, to take every day by day for sure.

I feel like that's really helpful for a lot of our listeners out there

who are like getting into stuff because I know a lot of people who

are interested in freelancing, but it's also you're basically starting

your own business for yourself.

So it is something to take into account.

Not trying to deter anyone from doing that at all because if you have the

ambition for it, 100 percent go for it.

But it definitely is something to take into consideration both

the pros and cons that come with employment versus freelance.

It can be a two in one if you would like.

You can have a corporate job and you can do content creation

on the side if you really want.

If you make monetary value of it good job.

Yeah, I think ambition is a really good word to use because when you're working

freelance, you are hunting for your work.

You're building connections, you're using networks, you're in a lot of

Facebook groups, you're on a lot of job websites where people put up

open positions for freelance work.

And so it's just understanding that every day you're making your own schedule and

you're deciding today, these are the tasks I do, and this is what I have to do in

order to make money to survive basically, which I know a lot of people thrive on

that, and it is a great way to go, and you can often make a lot more money but

if you are someone who likes stability and just feeling a little more secure

in what you're doing, an employee route might make a little more sense for you.

Yeah, and keep in mind guys, whoever's listening I think both of our experience

is mainly based in Michigan, specifically Grand Rapids, so it could be totally

different elsewhere, but as a Producer specifically, just keep that in mind.

It could be totally different, especially in a film hub area.

Yeah, I think producing freelance right out of college is gonna be a little

more difficult than trying to like cam up and grip and things like that.

So it's just understanding where you thrive and how

much time you want to put in.

But I know many Producers that start off working for a company and then once

they build their repertoire and they know their shit, if you will, they'll go

freelance because they're ready for it.

So it's always, you can always go back and forth as well.

Like the world's your oyster, we're still young, who knows what we're gonna do.

For real.

No, I agree with that 100%.

So lean into that.

I know that we've looked at a lot of different things to think about whether

going freelance or employee with that, just for overall advice for anyone

who wants to get into producing, who that might be, it might be something

that kind of interests them, but they're not really sure what to start

focusing on, specifically in learning, whether that's teaching themselves via

the internet or taking classes at GV.

I know that we have Producing for Clients here, of course, but what skills do you

think that people might need for this and what things should they focus on?

Accounting 101.

And that can even be like a community college class.

You can go home for the summer and just decide to take whatever your local CC

is just to get a general understanding.

And also while you're in college, you're in Fiction one, you're in Fiction two,

you're around these people every day.

Start building your network, start finding out how you work, how other

people work, who you work well with, build your boundaries that you know

that you're going to have in your professional life, because now is really

the time to start connecting with people.

And then once you all graduate, you all start taking different paths.

People work for a company, some people go freelance, people move to Chicago,

to LA, to New York, some people stay here, and it's just a great time to

start really building your network, when it comes down to it, because it's

built in, like everyone's there, so might as well use it while you have it

compared to graduating and then feeling like you're starting completely anew.

Yeah, I love what you said about networking this is, shameless plug,

but Grand Rapids Film Society has a substack, and we write for it, and

I ended up writing something about networking, when you're networking, I

would say the biggest thing is do not just meet with someone because you're

like, they're gonna give me a job.

If that's all you're thinking out of it, It's not going to be a great connection.

When I network, I'm like, these people are in my field.

Like it could lead to something, but I'm just there to get to know them

as people because oftentimes your connections, it's not going to be

one meeting and then you get a job.

It's I met you a year ago and now you have me in mind for this

job because you liked who I am.

I told you a story, we talked, we had fun.

So yeah, a lot of it's just networking.

Making work friends.

Don't go into it with I'm gonna meet with you and then you're gonna give me a job.

And then what Gillian's saying is, take all those classes.

When I was in school I took so many different classes like I was taking

women and gender studies classes just cause I almost minored in it and then

I was like, ugh, then I'd have to take a lot of hard classes on, my last

semester but I took a lot of those.

I took a business class, but it didn't really help me because I was already

managing a coffee shop and I was like, okay, so I already do all of this.

We were doing simulations and I was like, this is my job.

And then I took philosophy classes.

, I took Script two.

Joel was like, Breana, why are you in this class?

He was happy I was there, but tell us why you're in this class.

And I just said, because as a Producer, I work with every department.

And if I am supposed to be reading a script and helping with the

creative and doing all these things, I need to know what every

department does and how to do it.

Even if I'm a bad script writer, I should know how a script

works and how to write it.

So yeah, take a lot of classes, learn a lot of things about life, because

film like, we're in an art form.

We're talking about it a lot as work, because that's what producing

is, but film is an art form.

Toni Perrine who used to teach at Grand Valley always said film

imitates life and life imitates film.

And that's true.

So when you're making something, although you might think it might not

affect people or real life, it does.

And if you're making a story about a woman, taking that

WGS class could really help.

Yeah, all those different things.

Just learn about life.

You only got one.

So yeah, end of monologue.

Take a lot of classes, learn a lot of things because we are

making art at the end of the day.

Yeah.

And like you've mentioned, you've done a lot of student films,

quote unquote, but student films are films like you are doing it.

You are making something.

You are creating something that you're proud of that you can submit to

festivals, take that seriously because it feels just like a class project,

but it's really your opportunity to learn and to figure things out.

So take those things seriously and enjoy it because you'll come to a

point where, you don't have to make those things and you're maybe going to

miss the opportunity you had to spend time with other filmmakers like that.

I love that.

It reminded me when I was a senior in college, I was telling Joel,

like, when I become a Producer and he was like, stop right there.

And I was like, Oh no, what did I do?

And he was like, you are a Producer.

Hold yourself to that value and value yourself because you are a Producer,

you've done it, you can do it.

So yeah, I love that.

I feel like those are all really good things.

And especially, in thinking of, people get a little confused sometimes

when I tell them that I'm taking a lighting class and a sound design

class and I'm also producing and I'm also taking this film studies course.

And they're like why are you doing all these things?

And why did you only take script one?

And I'm like, again, you touch every department.

So I feel like you should at least, you don't need to be an expert, but you

should at least know how that department works and have a good gist of it that

like if something happens, it's not going to go completely haywire because you're

like, no, I know how to go about this.

So I feel like that is really good to think about.

And definitely, like you said, Breana, thinking about the sense of it is really

important to take those women in gender studies class because to be able to

apply that to again, whether it's indie filmmaking or it's a corporate commercial

or something like that, just being able to think about it from that perspective,

I feel like is something that is, it really does make those stories pop

and it really brings out the humanity in us as filmmakers and shows, life

through our eyes, which is really cool.

And just a beautiful thing to think about.

I love seeing that.

It's one of the reasons why I love watching GV student films.

It's I love going to showcase.

So I really do, I only have, I got one last question for you guys.

So in thinking about this, what experiences did you have while

you were in school that have really helped you in your career?

I was a very active member of GVTV and I really think that is the main

reason I'm where I'm at now because you're able to join at any year, but if

you join as a freshman you're getting to work on sets like, whenever you

start making projects, you can get in there right away on GVTV sets.

And it's a cool opportunity to feel out different roles because in class, you're

often assigned a certain role once you get to a certain point in the program.

So you can still switch things up in GVTV and for producing specifically, like I

was able to join a show my freshman year and become the Producer my sophomore year.

And I was able to join eboard.

I was on eboard for all three years and moved up from Social

Media to VP to President.

And those are just experiences where you're getting to lead people and

work with people and learn about filmmaking, but also learn about a

leadership style and things like that.

So I'm super pro GVTV, check it out.

They always have cool stuff going on.

They have a really big discord of a lot of things happening.

It's a great community.

Of course I haven't been in there in five years, so I can't attest

to exactly how it's going now.

But my time there was, I super, super enjoyed it.

And my network of filmmakers and honestly, my network of friends is still.

pretty much based on who I met in so don't be afraid to look outside of class

as well to start gaining experience.

Now, thinking about it, I don't know if it's specifically an experience,

but something that I always think I, didn't value as much as I could have was

honestly just having all that equipment.

I know sometimes, as a student, you're like, this is all scratched up, or

doesn't work as well as I think it could.

But, when you get out, you have to pay for equipment.

And you just have all of these items and tools at your disposal,

which you wouldn't have otherwise.

You don't have Premiere.

You don't have all these things.

So it's, really the experience that I would say is just having all of those

materials at my disposal and really taking advantage of them because once you're

out you don't have those things and it's so much harder to make a short film.

You don't even have to do it for class If you want to make something make it because

all of those materials are free for you to use especially editing software, script

writing software those aren't things you just inherently have after school.

And so I think that really helped me it was much harder

without it to get things made

Renting is a very expensive thing.

I would say, currently on a project that I'm working on, we're actually

like, Yeah, let's rent a monitor.

And I'm like, how much does it cost to rent a monitor?

Oh, yeah, insurance.

That's another big learning curve when you get out is insurance on things.

Joel has actually been telling us about that more recently,

where hey, insurance is a thing.

You can get it for like a temporary thing.

You probably should because, if you break something in an Airbnb, you

don't really want to be sued, so it's, yeah, that is really good.

Thank you so much for all of the insight.

I appreciate all of your guys insight and experience on these types of things.

This will be helpful for a lot of people, including me.

Yeah, that was really awesome.

And shout out the GR Film Society and everything Breana does with them.

They're an amazing group right here in Grand Rapids, tons of events, the

newsletter, a super cool community, going to watch films, discussing films.

So another suggestion if you're here figure out who the people are

outside of school as well, because there's a really cool community and

the film society is one of them.

Oh thank you.

I did not petition her or pay her to say that.

It's because I love it.

I love going to events.

That's for the film society,

Yeah, I really enjoyed talking with you.

I learned stuff from Gillian today.

And yeah, even Gillian and I don't get to work with each other a lot.

I don't know if we ever even have.

Thank you guys so much for coming.

Again, I appreciate you taking your time.

It was a pleasure to meet you guys and hopefully our listeners will

appreciate everything that you guys had to offer and all your advice.

Yeah, it was awesome.

It was great speaking with you both.

Yeah.

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