PB_S2E11_AUDIO ONLY_0331 ===

Paul: [00:00:00] Hello. Welcome to, welcome to Episode. 11 of season two of prison breaking with Sarah and Paul. We just watched sho boos, Bolshoi Blues.

Sarah: No booze, no blues. You're a musician. You want it to be blues. Yeah, I

Paul: don't, we we watched Bolshoi booze.

Sarah: Dude. Dude, I did not remember how that ended. I like, for those of you who are, uh, on our Patreon community, were watching the rewatch with us.

Like I sort of wigged out [00:01:00] at the end of it. I had no idea where that ended. I forgot. Talk about a cliffhanger.

Paul: I forgot. I mean, one of the things about watch, we've talked about this before, but uh, I think Sarah and I have both been. Anticipating these episodes coming up because we had such intense work and we had such intense work together.

Yeah. It was by far the most intense work I had ever done on screen. I don't know if it, like, it was nothing. Oh yeah. Nothing had ever really been asked of me like that. Um, even on stage in a lot of ways, did some stuff on stage. Um, kinda wanna hear about that. Uh, but um, it's like it brings you right back to it,

Sarah: like viscerally vis vis.

I was actually very surprised I've, 'cause I rewatched these episodes before we did season five. Um, but I don't remember much of it. You know what's kind of weird? I, I don't know if I've ever said this before, but when I rewatched them, um, like the whole thing confronting, it was [00:02:00] a lot. And I was at a convention somewhere in the US and it was like after a convention, I was like, all right, I'm just gonna blow through.

As much this weekend as I can. And I like, like drank a lot of wine and watched most of season two. Not all of it, but most of season two. And how, and it like, it hit me and then I think I just sort of forgot about it. Yeah. Because watching these again, like it's, I remember that feeling of like shivering and it being so cold 'cause you're wet.

And also, it was studio, weren't we? We were a studio. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: We were on stage.

Sarah: Yeah. And it was all air conditioned and stuff.

Paul: And it, and it brings you back not just to the work it brings you back to the day.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Paul: Like I remember the se, like, I remember who there the days, it was multiple days.

Oh, multiple days. Also, they remember they built a tank too.

Sarah: That's what I mean.

Paul: Yeah. Well there was a, I think

Sarah: the tank was a second day. If I'm remembering right, I may, I might not be remembering. Right. [00:03:00]

Paul: I don't remember. But so the way they shot that with the, uh, Sarah and I in the bathtub is they had a, they built a motel room, they built the bathroom.

Paul (2): Mm-hmm.

Paul: And then outside of that, they built this big tank. So anytime you see huge

Sarah: plexiglass tank, a huge

Paul: plexiglass tank. So anytime you see Sarah, those shots like looking up at her mm-hmm. From the water.

Paul (2): Mm-hmm.

Paul: There's a tank with a, with a plexiglass bottom and the camera's under it there. The camera was not in the water, right?

Sarah: No, the camera was inside, as far as I know. Shockingly

Paul: large tank.

Sarah: Oh, dear God.

Paul: I don't know why it had to be so big, frankly.

Sarah: Um, I think so that they could get a wide angle lens in there and not see, because if you could see the sides of it, you'd see it. They wore white. Uh huh. Right, because it was, it was plexi.

Right,

Paul: right, right. And they needed to be far enough away to get, yeah. Oh, I don't [00:04:00] know where to start. Uh, should we read the intro to the,

Sarah: let's start with the index. Um, let's start with the index. Um, okay. Also, you were drinking out of a very, out of a new mug while we were doing this. Paul has a prison breaking mug.

We have merch, guys, if anybody wants some. I made it

Paul: myself in my garage. You can, that's with a la with a lathe. I dunno. It's

Sarah: actually made out of cherry wood. Yeah. Um, that you shellacked Nick Offman came over and

Paul: taught me how to make it

Sarah: amazing. Um, yeah, you can find it on our, our personal Instagram, our prison breaking Instagram.

Yes. And I looked on my Instagram and,

Paul: and the prison break link is in my. Link tree, but I don't know if the merch link is in my link tree. So we'll have to get that. We can put it in there. Okay.

Sarah: Um, okay, so our episode, let me pull up my, uh, my little notes here. So take it away. Kaine indexer,

Paul: Bolshoi [00:05:00] booze episode two 11.

It first aired on November 13th, 2016. Beautifully directed by Greg Gut, friend of the show. Beautiful making it Greg's second of eventually three that he would direct for the show. His first as Brothers Keeper, the flashback episode from season one that we all love so much. Monica Mazer and Seth Hoffman co-wrote it.

This aired in the 8:00 PM time slot against its Greg competition Deal or No deal on NBC. How I Met Your Mother on CBS and why Swap on N BBC True

Sarah: Timeout if you read it too fast, sorry. And people who are listening on YouTube aren't gonna be able to translate time slot. It's regular co uh,

Paul: this aired at in the 8:00 PM time slot against its regular competition deal or no deal on NBC.

How I Met Your mother on CBS. Wife swap on A, B, C, and it drew 9.21 million live viewers, which is a lot, a high, a lot, the highest rating for the show in five weeks. And it was still, as we discussed in the episode, last episode, right in the heart of November, sweeps, we think. The last episode. I like that episode.

Sarah: We're gonna recap this 'cause Dear God, uh, teabag [00:06:00] escapes the cops that are coming to Mrs. Hollander's house by leaving his hand behind. I challenge you not to feel viscerally disgusted by that. Um, Aldo Burrows reveals that Governor 10 reti had, uh, evidence that could prove Lincoln's. I innocence.

Paul: Innocence

Sarah: is is his innocence also His his

Paul: innocence?

Sarah: His his innocence. But then, although Lincoln LJ are attacked by a company mole, um, and by the way, let's just take a moment and visualize an actual, actual mole with a gun be so good. That's not what happens. I can't work for the company

Paul: what he sounds like.

Sarah: Is that your, is that your mole? That's my mole. Your mole. Sounds like he's from New York. I work for the company. Yeah. He, he, he does. Kim freeze maho from the warehouse, uh, that Michael locked him inside. And first he is very snarky and sort of shitty about it. Schofield arrives at a meetup, uh, the Bolshoi booze meetup holding, hoping to find a plane and Lincoln to make their final escape outta the us.

But when the [00:07:00] people he's meeting find out that he brought fake nitroglycerin, they decide to kill him until Sukra arrives and saves the day. Yay. Re then Lincoln and Aldo arrive, uh, having set El sent LJ to safety first. Meanwhile, uh, BEIC leaves a threatening message for Giri, who, as you remember, stole all of Westmoreland's, dug up money, but Teabag wants to get to Teabag, gets to gear first, and kills him

Paul: before he can get a.

Sarah: Yeah, no, say it. They don't

Paul: say it. They imply it.

Sarah: They imply it. Um, basically saving three, uh, sex workers. Sex workers from having to perform terrible, terrible acts. Um, Kellerman, tortures, RETTI in a motel room, PS but to no avail. So Kim orders him to kill her. This was known as our Valentine's

Paul: episode, uh, in extraterrestrial news this week on November 7th.

As UFO sighting was reported at O'Hare International [00:08:00] Airport, right in Chicago 1212. I know this United Air, I can't believe this. United, United Airlines employees and several other witnesses said they saw a metallic, saucer shaped craft hovering over gate C 17.

Sarah: Of course, it's the Seagates,

Paul: of course. Ugh.

Yeah. The FAA Federal Aviation Administration refused to investigate the matter and in insect news, beekeepers reported this week that honeybees began experiencing a mysterious phenomenon called colony collapse disorder, which is when a show that Sarah was on was canceled.

Paul (2): Oh, wah. Wow.

Paul: Where large numbers of hives were being abandoned for no discernible reason by their worker bees were they unionizing?

Sarah: Um, by the way, our, I understand that the index is a little bit unhinged this week. Yes. It's because I'm a little unhinged, but also the tidbits of from the world that our, uh, wonderful intern Drew Austin pulled up, um, were just bonkers and I love them so much. Yeah. And pop culture on the same day as the UFO sighting and [00:09:00] possibly related Britney Spears filed from divorce from her former backup dancer, turned husband Kevin Federline after two years of a very public and messy marriage.

Um, a few days earlier, the movie Borat Wow compared it, number one, despite its limited release, earning $263 million on a movie that cost them 18 million to take.

Paul: I hope they had, I hope he had backend.

Sarah: Oh man, I hope he made a fortune. Um, that movie gave the world the phrases very nice. And my wife, uh, I don't know about you, but in my household, somebody says one of those at least twice a week.

Yep. I would like to personally thank Sasha Baron Cohen. 'cause I love that movie along with everyone else. Also this week, the PS three, the PlayStation three oh, um, which was the first to ever use Blu-ray technology was released in Japan and sold 81,000 units in just over 24 hours. They were buying it so they could watch the Blu-ray of prison break Borat.

Oh. Oh, by the way, Bora does prison break [00:10:00] would be ah, enormously. My brother, enormously, my brother, he's in the prison. Um, okay, let's, uh, let's take a quick break and then let's talk. I have so many notes. Okay. We'll be right back. So many notes. Okay. Bye. So.

Welcome back.

Paul: Okay. Well, I don't know how to, I feel like I need a psychiatrist couch to, to talk about this episode. Like I should lay down. Just lay down and free associate.

Sarah: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. Um, can we start with the Stuntwoman story? I,

Sarah: I think we should. So I'm curious to see if we remember this. Yeah, me too.

Similarly, because one of the things the older I get that I learn about memory is that things

Paul: change

Sarah: sometimes become slippery and you compare notes with someone later and you're like, yes. Wait, no, it wasn't a UFO, it was Right. A Tesla, whatever. Sorry, my brain just fried. Um, so [00:11:00] we alluded to this in our conversation with Eric Norris.

Are you okay? You're like off to the side. Out of frame. I'm out of frame. Yeah. There you are. Now you're back. Hi. Well, it seem good. Um, so here, why, okay, why don't you start with what you remember of this. Okay. Here's what I remember. 'cause it involves you. I, in some ways more than me,

Paul: right? So this is what I remember.

Uh, the day we doing the torture scene, not in the tank, in the tub, right?

Sarah: In the, on the, in the hotel room set. In the hotel

Paul: room set. Mm-hmm. Uh, I get called to set to do a stunt rehearsal.

Paul (2): Mm-hmm.

Paul: Uh, it's a pre rehearsal. And at the stunt rehearsal are me, Greg Cutaneous, the director, the stunt woman who's playing Sarah.

Paul (2): Mm-hmm.

Paul: Eric Norris, the, I believe it was Eric. Mm-hmm. Stunt coordinator and I think the ad.

Sarah: Yeah.

Paul: And they're going to, I'm sorry,

Sarah: who may or may not [00:12:00] have been Jocko for, it may have been Jocko, Jocko did this episode or

Paul: not. And they're gonna teach us, me, how to dunk her safely in the water. Mm-hmm. And pull her back up.

She is tied, her arms are behind her back. Mm-hmm. She's in a chair leaning over the tub. The tub is, has no water in it yet. It has about, it's gonna be filled, filled with water. Uh, at this point it has about two inches of water in it. I think they were just seeing if it would leak or something. Mm-hmm. And the stunt woman sitting in the chair, and she says, as they often do, or Eric, and she said, she, you put your hand on her, on the back of her collar and on her shoulder.

As you be push pushing her, she is going to launch herself out.

Paul (2): Mm-hmm.

Paul: Like she will be in control of that movement. Mm-hmm. And she was like, and you can fake pushing me down and I'll push myself down and then you can help bring me back up. [00:13:00]

Paul (2): Mm-hmm.

Paul: That was the assignment. Mm-hmm. Sarah was there watching.

Sarah: That's me. Hi.

Paul: And

I'm sitting on the edge of the tub and all, all I remember is she launched herself out and I launched myself with her and I went, she went down and I went down with her and I smashed the back of her face with all my weight into the bottom of that tub that only had about two inches of water in it.

Sarah: Oh, this is interesting.

I remember a few of these things differently

Paul: and I felt, first of all, I'll never forget like the feeling of that.

Paul (2): Oh, like the thud, like

Paul: the kind of crunch of it. Oh,

Paul (2): and then

Paul: there was immediately, I also remember the tub, like immediately filling with blood. Yeah. And um, I remember her coming [00:14:00] back up and we both know, and then she was immediately like, well, okay, I remember pulling her back up and I remember you going fuck this and turning around and leaving, which I totally understand

Sarah: this, my reaction has to do with the parts of this I remember differently.

Yeah.

Paul: And then from there it was, which was, uh, a really strange experience. 'cause I felt like that was a hundred percent my fault.

Sarah: Um, not at all.

Paul: Oh, I, I still disagree. I knew better from theater that my weight should never have been out and over her. And she went for it too far, too hard, and I went for it too hard, basically.

And there was no water in the tub, which was weird. Uh, I

Sarah: remember the, also, there should

Paul: have been pillows in the tub, or she shouldn't have gone down anyway, immediately what happened? And I feel like in retrospect, this was like, this is what [00:15:00] they do with act. This is the difference between theater and film.

Like this is video. Like immediately the ads were like, it's not your fault. And, and, and the, and the stunt stunt coordinator's like, not your fault. And it was like, I was like, can we just take care of her? And because she's, she's bleeding from here. She forehead. I don't think she broke her nose. No, it was her forehead.

She had a really huge gash. I remember going to my trailer. Calling my wife at the time and like almost bursting into tears. Like I've like killed all these people in the show and I'm feeling macho, like the feeling of not just like hurting somebody, but hurting someone. Defense who is defenseless

Paul (2): uhhuh.

Paul: It was like just the grossest, it was literally gross in like the true sense of the word. Like it was nauseating, um, physically.

Paul (2): Mm-hmm.

Paul: And that's what, like, why don't you tell your, uh,

Sarah: well the, [00:16:00] the coda to that is, it was days before her wedding. She was getting married that weekend.

Paul: I have a coated to this too, which is kind of gendered and hilarious, but go on.

Sarah: Well, okay, let me, so let me back up. I remember along with you being called to set going, we have a pre rehearsal and I don't have a memory of this part, but I imagine that we all had a lot of nerves going into that day. Because this is a big stunt sequence and it's a big part of why's acting

Paul: sequence.

Like we're doing that whole, we're doing a hundred percent, we're doing out, we're doing the room.

Sarah: Yep.

Paul: And then we're doing the bathroom. I mean, those are two like crucial scenes and Yeah. With a pretty complicated stunt

Sarah: and water element. I mean, I think part of why they built this was so that they could be in charge of like, draining the tub and Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. You know, also like big, um, big, what you call issues big, uh, uh, like health and safety issues. Sure. With sticking [00:17:00] somebody in water, but also just from a shooting standpoint, once be able to move the walls once I'm wet,

Paul: right,

Sarah: you are, it's gonna be a two hour reset with hair, makeup, and wardrobe.

So you wanna be really careful to shoot in sequence. So I remember at this point, right, no going back. No going back. And I don't remember, I think we'd already shot the stuff. In the ante room, but I could be wrong about that. In the other room we did, but I, I remember being called to set and same people were there that you mentioned.

And I remember there being no water in the tub and being walked through. Here are the steps of this dunk. And I remember saying exactly these words, that's not safe. I say, there is no way I, I recall this now that when his body is leveraged, because you were being asked to be at the back of the tub, leaning over over her.

And I was like, once the weight of his body is past his hips. Correct. [00:18:00] He will not. And I remember eye rolls, not from you, but people standing around were like, Ugh,

Paul: fucking actresses.

Sarah: This was one of those moments on prison break where I was so aware of being a woman Uhhuh. And I was like. I was like, it's not safe.

And there was a fine, we'll show you. So I remember filling the tub with water. Oh,

Paul: we'll show you.

Sarah: I remember, as far as I know, it was the first time I'd ever put my foot down on the show and like, I don't wanna do this because this doesn't look sense. I now

Paul: remember this dynamic, which was a kind of like I fucking told you dynamic, which is not, which is totally understandable and acceptable.

Sarah: Well, it, it wasn't, I told you it was, I want you to look out for me better. Like even Oh no, I know. That's what I mean. Like, to, like, I, my heart is,

Paul: I just said this wasn't gonna work and you showed at me exactly how it's not gonna work

Sarah: and, and instead of [00:19:00] taking me seriously, you blew me off. Yeah. As though I was afraid instead of understanding how physics work and like.

Ooh. And so what I remembered was, was that they did fill the tub. Um, when, when you did it, I, it's kind of neither here nor there, but I remembered her going down. It would've made difference.

Paul (2): I mean,

Sarah: because in my head I remember somebody going, they partly, they sent us back to our trailers because they're like, well, we've gotta drain the tub and clean it because it's full of someone, someone's, it's full of blood.

Paul: I remember it being like, not very much water.

Sarah: Okay. Maybe it wasn't full. Maybe. I mean, it certainly wasn't

Paul: full. 'cause we, uh, like yeah,

Sarah: because could you see the amount of blood in there?

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't, I mean, it, that was that, I mean, I guess I don't know how much water would've stopped the force of it, but it really felt like we were traveling through air to the bottom of the tub.

Sarah: I mean, I, [00:20:00] I remember watching it happen and just going, oh my God. And feeling instantly for both of you. I do remember her coming up and being like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. Like she did that stunt person thing where she was just like, do not worry about me.

Everybody called out. That was my

Paul: fault. That was not like

Sarah: a hundred percent. And, and again, I actually don't think you did anything wrong because you did exactly what you were told to do. I

Paul: was, you know, they were like half speed. Like it wasn't half speed. I'll tell you that much. 'cause you can't do that half speed.

Sarah: No, I mean, unless you're

Paul: doing Pilates, you're, you, you can't like go out over your

Sarah: truly without a course. She

Paul: long, she long. Like, she literally, and we both like, they were like, action. We both like went like that. Like there's no, yeah,

Sarah: there's nothing to hold your weight Uhuh. Um, but yeah, I mean it was,

Paul: do you remember walking away?

Sarah: I remember,

Paul: which I think was actually [00:21:00] quite generous because you, I remember a, you didn't make it about you. 'cause there was this sense of like, that would've been my fucking face.

Sarah: Well, also that would've been like, that would've been the day, that's what I mean, like, you couldn't have shot for the next like week, several weeks.

I mean, she had stitches that Correct. Went right down her. I mean, she went immediately. They were like, er for you. Yeah.

Paul: And then my po my coda, well I have, I have a coda too.

Sarah: I remember, I remember being, here's something I've learned about myself. I did not know it about myself. Then in my defense I was 29.

Um, but something I've learned about myself since is I'm a pretty reasonable person, unless you put me in the pos, in the position of having to protect myself once the people whose job it is to make sure I'm safe. Make it clear that I have to be that one. I [00:22:00] go from calm to dragon. I

Paul: pretty quickly, I would, I would, I I would, I would push back on you saying that that's unreasonable.

Sarah: Well, I'm not saying it's unreasonable, but it's something that I've learned. I'm normally

Paul: reasonable. Like that's, that your response, frankly, is, was, was reasonable.

Sarah: Well, I think part of why I took myself out of the situation is I was like, I'm about to have a bunch of emotions that I don't need anybody else to be responsible for.

So, and also you

Paul: didn't need to stand there and say, I'm out. Fuck. I'm not doing, like there was other, like she was bleeding.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Paul: And I was freaked out. Like it was like you left because it was like, okay, you guys gotta take care of this shit. I, I don't remember. I mean, I have a coda too on it. I don't know how we ended up sh like how did we end up shooting?

Shooting that it was.

Sarah: Well, I think so. I think you came around the side of the tub. So if you're, so [00:23:00] the, the original thing was I was

Paul: in back of you,

Sarah: if this is the edge of the tub right here, I'm here. You're behind me. You dunk me. We both come up presumably so we could stay in the same shot. What we ended up, what we just watched was I'm here, you come around the table uhhuh.

So now you're, you're not so far out and you've got control over my body and your body. Like I could basically get my, I control my body.

Paul: I could basically get my hand under you if I wanted.

Sarah: That's right. That's right. There's no way, I mean, A, you're not gonna fall. I also pull my head into the tub, but B, you can pull me up.

I also recall 'cause I couldn't

Paul: recall you not having your hands tied when you went in the water.

Sarah: Oh, I bet that's right. I bet we cheated that. Yeah, because I needed way that would not Yeah, that would be like,

Paul: no fucking way.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep, yep. Yeah. Um,

Paul: I mean, I, as bad as it was, it was lucky. Um, and it

Sarah: also made a lot [00:24:00] of that fear on my face.

Super fucking real.

Paul: Yeah. Made me upset. Do you mean It made me upset too, to watch somebody, my coda is that I felt, I felt terribly and that woman was getting married.

Sarah: She thought it was cool, by the way. I know. She was like, dude, I have a stunt woman. That's what they're like.

Paul: But like, I don't know. I, I always remember that as the next day.

I don't know if it was actually the next day, but it was soon.

Sarah: It was super soon. It was less than she

Paul: then did the thing where she jumps out the window through the windshield.

Sarah: That's, yeah. But that was a different episode. So that later. I know, but it's the next

Paul: episode. It could have been the next day.

Yeah. I don't, I remembered it being the next day. 'cause I remember go driving. Okay. I remember getting a bottle of wine. Oh God. And writing a note.

Sarah: So sorry.

Paul: So sorry.

Sarah: But again,

Paul: and driving out to, to set this is I think the gendered part and like, and [00:25:00] giving it to her and her being like,

yeah, thanks. Like, oh, interesting. Like, just doing my job. Like also kind of like you fucking wimp. Like, but, but also like, look, if I had hurt a male stunt man, I mean, I certainly wouldn't have bought him a bottle of wine, but like, I, I may have written him an, I don't know. I felt like this kind of like, I heard a girl thing too.

Paul (2): Okay. But it would be different if I was like

Paul: defense and, and I felt a little, I felt her kind of disdain for that, which I understand.

Sarah: Sure, sure, sure. And I mean, I gotta say, for all the things about being a woman on a set, I cannot imagine the way it's magnified for stunt women. Right. Um, but I, to me, also, the, an element of it was, oh my God, it's right before her wedding.

Like, if you had heard a stunt man the weekend before his wedding, I can see you driving out to set, and maybe it [00:26:00] would've been scotch or bourbon, but just being like, dude, bro, I'm, I'm super sorry that your wedding night, you're gonna have to take four Advil for your splitting headache because you've got stitches in your skull.

Like, I, that was just for me with who you are. Yeah,

Paul: yeah. No, I guess that's true. I, I would, I would've, um, yeah, I still would've been dismissed. Right. But in a different way.

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, and also like that's kind of the stuntman ethos and like, and I've heard this from a bunch of them, and I, I understand it and I have a vague memory of her saying something to me the next time I saw her, which must have been that jump out day, which is this went the way it should have, it was me, not you.

Paul: I mean, that is actually, uh, true.

Sarah: They, yeah, I mean, I mean, that's why you used, if it had been me,

Paul: it's also why you used stunt people, because That's right. They know how to take a fall. They know how to do that. I mean, I, I mean, you would've had your face smashed in exactly the same way, but that's one of the reasons why stunt people, they, they know how to do it better, [00:27:00] but also if something goes wrong.

Yeah. They kind of know how to deal with that too.

Sarah: Yeah, that's right. And um, and I think this is something we didn't talk about with Norris, but one of, when I'm on the directing side, one of the things I find most useful about having stunt actors around is the rehearsal. Sure. Is to go, I don't want my actors to run this fight 15 times.

No. So we're gonna run it three times for camera to watch in rehearsal.

Paul (2): Yeah.

Sarah: And so, and then that's, that is a part of the job is the, like, let's show everyone what this is about. Um, yeah. That was, that is to this day, I believe one of the wildest stunt moments. Yep. That's I've ever been, it's a story.

Paul: I, it's a story I tell, that's for sure.

Sarah: Yeah. Um, I forgot,

Paul: which is interesting that you before it, 'cause I remember this so clearly now. Mm-hmm. That like, that's not safe. That's not safe.

Sarah: It's not safe.

Paul: Yeah, not great. [00:28:00] Um, not great. Um,

Sarah: alright. But actually the, I mean the Coda, Coda is, we then all came together and shot some work I'm really proud of and

Paul (2): yeah.

Sarah: And it did feel like when we were filming it, it did feel safe.

Paul (2): Yeah.

Sarah: I don't remember. I remember being nervous because anytime you plug your face into water and stuff, but

Paul: I'm so glad it was you.

Sarah: Everybody seemed to really let that go and then come back.

Paul: Yep.

Sarah: It couldn't have been an hour later. No. And been like, okay, so now how do we get this done?

And then

Paul: I will say, to your eternal credit, you're a class act. And like for someone who's like not gonna take any shit, also a total gamer because not only did you do that, then you went to the tank and were like, okay, how's this gonna work? Right. And then they're like, okay, tank. 'cause if you fell into that tank.

Sarah: Oh my God. It was like four feet deep. Yeah.

Paul: I don't, I don't [00:29:00] remember. I, because I, I, there's only one shot from there that I'm in.

Sarah: That's right, that's right.

Paul: Uh, and most of it is, yeah. And oh God, I remember you doing it feel over and over again too, and being so, I mean, being wet, we

Sarah: shot the everliving shit outta that stuff.

Being wet

Paul: is challenging.

Sarah: It's not my favorite. Although again, I will say it takes away a lot of acting like Yeah. And you just, you just are wet and they are

Paul: no acting required.

Sarah: No acting required. Um, so here's something, and I'm, we've got lots of other notes and stuff, but to just sort of go through this a little bit, I, as I was looking through fan questions, nice mug, Paul.

Mm-hmm.

Paul: Thanks. And I don't mean that face when you said that before, I thought you were talking about my weird young face.

Sarah: Your weird

Paul: young face.

Sarah: Um, I, so a lot of the fan questions for this episode had to do with, how do you, [00:30:00] what do you do after a scene like this when you go back to your trailer, when you, like, how do you shed this stuff?

And, um, what's, what's, what's, do you have an answer to that? Like, it's a great, what a great

Paul: question. I, um,

I,

I will be, I'm not great at self-regulating.

Paul (2): Okay. And

Paul: I'm an excitable type, so I still, even at my advanced age, if I have a big day on set, whether it's emotional or not. Mm-hmm. My response to that is seldom. The specific content of the work, and it's usually the, uh, intensity of a challenge and everybody doing it and having a 14 hour day and being done like it can be.

I mean, I did, I [00:31:00] did the, um, Menendez brothers thing, right? And it was these long monologues, and it wasn't particularly emotional, but it was incredibly challenging.

Paul (2): Right. I had the

Paul: same kind of thing at the end of those days, which is I am fucking wired up.

Sarah: Oh, you're, you're a like, go home, cancel kind person.

Oh my God.

Paul: Like, I don't know what to do with myself. I will say in that particular case, I remember it very specifically. I was incredibly, incredibly relieved for a number of levels on a number of levels. One that we got it after what happened. Yeah,

Sarah: yeah.

Paul: Because it was like, oh, we're fucked. Like, yeah, this day is fucked up.

Right? Two. Very, very pleased and proud that we got it. And it felt like we did great work given that. Mm-hmm. So there was, it felt

Sarah: like we were there for each other as actors. Yeah.

Paul: I mean, I was gonna say, first of all, I was gonna say from an acting perspective, I'm gonna try to say this all without crying, that I'm such a [00:32:00] kind of, such no dude cry.

He's such a, he's such a, such a, I'm so macho. Um,

Sarah: I'm a middle-aged perimenopausal woman. I, Viv in the crying zone. Let's go.

Paul: I'm, uh, so grateful as an actor that it was you, but I'm also so grateful that like, as a, as a partner, as a human, it was you. 'cause those are two different things. I mean, I'm glad I got to work with your acting skill in on that day because it made what I did so much more fun and so much easier.

And two, I'm so glad that like you were there to deal with that problem. I. Mm. 'cause you dealt with it beautifully and class. Class classy. And that made all the fucking difference. 'cause it could have been, and understandably, a nightmare. It would've been well within your rights to say, I'm not doing this today.

Sarah: Yeah. You get in the car and you go home.

Paul: Yeah. Or like, we gotta figure out another, I'm not going in the water. Like, like [00:33:00] I would under, I would've understood it.

Paul (2): Hmm, hmm.

Paul: You know, and, and I don't just mean, oh, you sucked it up. I don't mean that like, you made it safe. You, you went immediately to how are we gonna solve this problem?

And Greg, also to Greg's great benefit or to mm-hmm. Uh, whatever, uh, credit.

Sarah: Yeah. Credits.

Paul: He didn't panic. There was no shouting. There was no blaming. It was like, okay, well what do, how we, we gotta make this obviously, what's the next step? Take care of her. What are we gonna do here? Mm-hmm. Also, we were down a stunt woman.

Sarah: That's right. We didn't have a stunt double. Right. Um, I I can't remember if they brought anybody else in. No, they didn't. 'cause I actually think she

Paul: was just there to choreograph it.

Sarah: Well, because there are no shots in the sequence of her. And maybe there would've been, I don't think there would've been actually everything.

Is the two of you the two of us in there? Yeah. Um, I think it's wonderful that we by then trusted [00:34:00] yet Yeah. Trusted our ad, trusted Norris. Like there was, and that you trusted

Paul: me.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, everybody there, I think everybody there was able to go, okay, that was a mistake. Mistakes happen, let's fix it.

As opposed to this is yet another sign of a deeply dangerous place to work. And I'm putting my foot down. Yeah.

Paul: Um, um, what, so to the, so the, to the question that, that, uh, some of our listeners post, what, how do you res, like, what happens for you on a, at the end of a day like this?

Sarah: You know, I'm gonna start with an answer that I think is better than mine, which is our mutual friend Peter Page.

Mm-hmm. We once had a conversation about this, um, and I'll tell you why in a sec, but he had played a character on queer as folk who I guess carried a lot of trauma. I, I didn't see it, but, um, he would, he told me once that he would, and I don't think I'm speaking outta turn here. He would look at himself in the mirror [00:35:00] after he took off all of his hair and makeup and wardrobe and was back in his clothes and his skin and would like talk himself through it.

Mm-hmm. Be like, okay, Emmett stays here, Uhhuh here comes home, Uhhuh. And there was that separation. Um, I hadn't evolved anything really like that. I often have the opposite reaction from you, which is, I go home and I am toast. I just like, I think I am sleep.

Paul: I think I am toast. I just think I, my adrenaline is you're wired.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: I mean, so here's the thing, and I actually, as I was sort of thinking about this episode over the last few days, knowing we were doing this, one of the things that I think is interesting is somebody said to me a few years ago, and I've heard it a few times since, that the body doesn't know the difference.

Correct. Between fake. Trauma and actual trauma. I hate the word trauma. I'm sorry. Between acting and life.

Paul: That's right. Act like body doesn't know [00:36:00] you're, you're acting.

Sarah: Right. And so when you dump these chemicals, this cortisol and stress and panic and adrenaline and everything into your system, and when you put your body through this, and I mean, it sounds like a weird thing to say, but like, so it's, it's in there.

It's in you. And at a certain point when I'd been acting probably 15 or 20 years, and most of my characters lived in very extreme circumstances, prison break, walking, dead colony, like these are all super high stakes. Yeah. Yeah. Your life is in danger. A lot shows. Yeah. I got to a point where I was like.

Carrying shit Uhhuh and stepping back from roles like that became really important.

Paul: Uhhuh

Sarah: and learning how to process some of that, which is really weird, but I know how people talk about, like, actors get crazy, man, and you look at [00:37:00] like people who've been doing this a long time and I've met some of them and some of them are a little nuts.

Yeah. And there's a part of me that's like, yeah, maybe that is actually, because

Paul: I, I think that there's a chicken and egg thing, I think. Sure. I think that one of the reasons we become actors is because we can act, pretend to be in those states.

Paul (2): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which

Paul: I understand are kind of real, but in a, and I think one of the reasons why we're attracted to doing it, like I'm sure you've been around actors either in class or in school, or.

Even in set where they go, yeah, I don't wanna go there. I don't wanna do that.

Sarah: Yeah. I don't wanna go there.

Paul: Yeah. Um, and I think sometimes if it's healthy, although your body doesn't know you're acting, you can get it to be catharsis. I mean, we used to say mm-hmm. Theater there, you know, we, [00:38:00] uh, in comedian, which were these extreme emotions only happiness, sadness, fear, or anger, like in extremists that we would say all states are a state of joy, though ultimately, even if you're playing the deepest sadness or the, the most fear, anger because it's play and also because it's mm-hmm.

Shared and in service of something

Paul (2): mm-hmm.

Paul: That there's something joyful about the expression of it and that Okay. At least it's being excised.

Sarah: Yeah.

Paul: Now that's id, that's in an ideal. World if you go and do this and it doesn't feel safe, and you go and do it and it's unsatisfying, or if it feels in service of something shitty mm-hmm.

You know, it can all get twisted up, but ideally

Paul (2): Mm.

Paul: It, it, it can be, even though it takes the physiological toll on you, there can be something cathartic about it. Um,

Sarah: I like that. I like that a [00:39:00] lot. Thanks. Yeah.

Paul: I mean, I don't know, again, ideally,

Sarah: well, and I, for what it's worth, I think we actually got to a pretty ideal place that day because we're proud of the work we did.

I'm very proud of it and, and I felt, and I agree. I'm really, really, really glad that I was doing it with you because I know you to be somebody who actually cares about other people's safety more than your own. Ah. Um, there's no part of you that's like an off script cowboy who thinks it's funny to get lost in a moment.

Yeah. And I knew. I was never worried about you, uh, taking things too far or getting lost in a moment, or being unsafe or, you know what I mean? Like, it just, it never crossed my mind. Um,

Paul: good. You know, one of the great lessons of, I think maybe anything, but it certainly, it's heightened and acting is there are, and I just had this, the thing I was telling you I did last Friday.[00:40:00]

Paul (2): Mm-hmm.

Paul: There are always gonna be, it's never gonna be ideal. There's always gonna be things that go wrong. Mm-hmm. Whether that is literally in the work, or if the person is holding a camera is chewing gum loudly and da da da da, and you have, you actually have to choose, actively choose to work past it.

Sarah: Yeah. Or incorporate it or something. Or incorporate it or something.

Paul: Yeah. But if, if you, if you. If it bothers you, and of course it bothers you, but if you go down the road of it bothering you, it's not that that shouldn't be happening. You have to remember that that is the work.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Paul: Like the job is don't let that fuck you up.

Sarah: Yeah.

Paul: Um, and it's a subtle difference, but I always used to look for the perfect environment. And what you have to understand is that like you're missing, that's not the [00:41:00] thing. You're missing the point.

Paul (2): Yeah.

Paul: And what I was, one of the things I was proud that we did as a, as a company, but also you and I did, is that given that thing that happened that then I was, that we were able to still go in there and I remember shooting the scene and feeling very connected and very loose, which is the thing you're looking for.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I did, it didn't feel planned. It felt very, you know, misery like mm-hmm. Back and forth in those conversations, you know? Um. I'll also say that like, you know, I got to basically imitate some of my favorite movie, I guess, movies. Okay. Wait and stuff of all time. Who,

Sarah: who, who were your references for this?

Paul: Um, well, just in the thing that when Tain asked me to do the thing on the bed where, yeah, Kim says, go killer. And then he t was like, and I never really worked this way before with a director. He was like, okay, I'm just locking this off and just do like 10 [00:42:00] things. Mm. And take as much time as you want. But the in between stuff doesn't have to, I'm gonna cut it out.

It's gonna be these dissolves. So sit on the bed, lay on the bed, do do whatever you want, and I'll just put it together later. And then, of course, the torturing you part reminded me of in both outside the bathroom and in the bathroom, the the marathon man thing, which is, is it safe? Is it safe? Is oh shit, is it safe?

Is it safe? Is it safe thing? Um, I just thought about the psychology of those things, and like you said, the abuse dynamic, which is, I'm gonna be really cruel to you, um, and then I'm gonna take care of you. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna tell you it's your fault.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Because, and I think, and I think you are in control,

Paul: the work I did on Kellerman here is that, that is his firm belief.

Mm-hmm. That, that's not like, he's like, you have this information. I need the information. Don't make me do this. I like you. Mm-hmm.

Paul (2): Mm-hmm.

Paul: Why are you making me do this? [00:43:00]

Sarah: Do you think, you think he kills her other way, right?

Paul: No.

Sarah: No. Do you think there's a world that he lets her go? I do. I think that

Paul: that's, I I had to play it in that, yes.

I think that the Kim thing is a surprise to him.

Sarah: Okay.

Paul: That he's like, I'm gonna go get his information from this person. She doesn't need to. Die. And, uh,

yeah, I, I think that that's not an option for him or that wasn't on the docket for him. I mean, you, I guess I'd have to think it's somewhere in the poss realm of possibility, but I think that dramatically that works as I, he really doesn't want to kill her.

Sarah: I mean, that really comes across and that's really interesting.

And you

Paul: know, it's also interesting that the way he kills her is inefficient and in theory, he doesn't watch, he [00:44:00] doesn't wanna watch her die.

Sarah: Walks away. Yeah, he

Paul: walks away. Yeah. And he lets her, there are ways to do it that are like, yeah, I, he could have shot her, he could have held her down.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Paul: He could have electrocuted her to death and he's like, yeah, okay.

Uh, like it mm-hmm. It's very, for him especially mm-hmm. It's very passive. I mean, also it allows her to escape, but that's.

Sarah: No, but it, you know, and a lot of the fan questions made it clear, like, it feels like such a departure for him. Um, and a lot of fans were kind of comparing it, which, which part? The way he chooses the, the way he chooses to kill her, and the sort of reticence and especially a lot of people were comparing it to, um, killing Danny, which also again is like your

Paul: fault.

Sarah: Very heavy. Lots of regret.

Paul: And your fault and your fault. Danny's fault,

Sarah: absolutely. But also more definitive. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm going to stand here and shoot you and [00:45:00] face you and shoot you, um,

Paul: yeah, there's like warrior code shit going on there.

Sarah: Yeah.

Paul: And this is, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I think it's disapp disappointing.

Sarah: The disappointing. It's disappointing.

Paul: It's that,

Sarah: yeah, it's that thing that the abusive father says that like, I'm very disappointed. I'm very disappointed and like, this is gonna

Paul: hurt me more than you like. It's about hi, you know, it's a Why are you doing this to me? Yeah,

Sarah: yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, fuck. Oh,

Paul: why are you making me do this?

You know, it's, he's pissed.

Paul (2): Yeah. Yep. And I, he's such a user psychology. I also think

Paul: that this is the beginning of the turn for him.

Paul (2): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Paul: You know, I, I, the Danny thing, again, that was like, that's a real betrayal. And the real abuse of a, of a certain code. This is a step further than he, he hasn't really killed, I mean, I guess Leticia [00:46:00] Baris was an innocent,

Sarah: but Yeah. I mean, I was gonna say like, not just an innocent, a friend, but like Leticia.

Well, and a civilian, somebody who genuinely does not have something to do with this. Um.

Paul: And I think somebody he cares about. I mean, I think, you know, again, like the whole thing about being a con artist is you have to kind of actually connect,

Sarah: right? Right.

Paul: And I think he genuinely likes her

Sarah: and there's been such an attrition of trust between him and the company, right?

Like he doesn't have direct access to vice president, to the President Reynolds anymore. He's being jerked around by Kim. You know, there's like, there's this sense that if you're gonna make these massive moral compromises uhhuh for people who value you and who love you and who are taking care of you, when you're a part of something that feels very different than, I don't know if I have a home here anymore.

I dunno if I can trust you. You know, his

Paul: whole thing, [00:47:00] I mean, as I constructed it in my brain was this is somebody who. The ends justifies the means. He's a true, true believer right? In country. He's a true, true believer in Carolyn Reynolds. Yeah. And what's starting to happen here is like, this seems beyond the pale.

I don't know why this is happening. You know? So,

Sarah: and they're betraying you and they're betraying me. Like as that continues to happen. Um, I wanna circle back to something. Yeah. I have so many other lines. I know this is a long episode. Yeah. And this may just be a long episode. That's okay. But you, when you were talking about, I can't remember how you phrased it, but it made me think of when we were doing the rewatch, you said that the line, I'm not Lance and I'm not an addict.

Paul: Yeah.

Sarah: Was an ad-lib.

Paul: Yeah. I think it might have. Either it was an ad-lib or it was a suggestion.

Sarah: Okay. But I

Paul: kind of remember just doing it on the day. I [00:48:00] think I was getting all cocky at that point.

Sarah: Why not? I mean, it was really fucking cool. It also sets a tone. It's so nasty. Tone. What sets a tone of power.

Do you know what I mean? Like, to me it says, so we are no longer equals. Right. I have all the power in this relationship. Yeah. And yeah, I'm going to use it all. Yeah.

Paul: Truly. Um, and it was, uh, it's such a great line. Yeah. I, I love how much people like that line. Um, uh, there's also something, somebody, my ex-wife always makes not, makes not making fun of me, but she always is.

And now you are going to die. Like, she was like, it's like Barnum suddenly. And I was like, I don't know why it came out in that way, but like,

Sarah: that's really funny. In

Paul: my, in my mind it was like [00:49:00] super paternal.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. That's honestly how I received it. Like

Paul: super like. Now, now I'm taking your phone. Like it was really like, yeah, you're, I'm treating you like you deserve, you know, like it's very

Sarah: patronizing.

Paul: Very patronizing. Like you dummy.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Well, and when he calls her stupid repeatedly, it's interesting. Yeah. And make a smart

Paul: choice for once in your life.

Sarah: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. It's, again, it's that. I also think that that is part of the psychology of, you need to have that kind of superiority in order to hurt people kind of, um, with in, in service of something larger.

It's like, you did this right? It's like the su it's like the, um, sugar thing and no country for old men. It's like, if all your choices brought you to this, if your code, if your code of content brought you to this moment, then what good was it?

Paul (2): Mm.

Sarah: Do you wanna take a break? We have so many. We have [00:50:00] so much more to talk about and we have fan questions.

Yeah. Yeah.

Paul: Let's take a quick break. I'm exhausted.

Sarah: Go take a nap. We'll be right back.

Hi. Okay, we're back. We're back.

Paul: I took a quick bath. I relaxed.

Sarah: Yep. Got a massage. Yep. Did my nails. Um, jk we were just here. What, okay. What do you wanna talk about next before we, I have so many, I have

Paul: notes. Um, just quickly talk about, um. UUs is directing that. You said something when we were doing the rewatch, which I really agree with, is that every time he directed, it feels like, and Kevin Hooks too.

Mm-hmm. But he was producing director, so he had kind of more agency in a way. But UUs has such a, a filmic sense. I mean, there's so many. Mm-hmm. He does so many things efficiently that people didn't used to do on tv. I mean, the dissolves [00:51:00] of Wentworth walking, uh, into the desert, the dissolves of Kellerman on the bed, the way that he's telling his story visually, you know, time passes and the distance passes, and it's also an incredibly efficient way to shoot, like with Wentworth, he just locked it off and had him walk probably for two minutes and then cut it and dissolved it, and it's five seconds.

Sarah: We're moving on

Paul: and we're right. And it's a, that's right. It's a, it's a very filmic decision to shoot that in one, let's say.

Sarah: And so to finish the, the thought is what I'd said on the, on the rewatch is I think every time he came and directed on the show, he made the show better. Yeah. And like people would then use some of his techniques.

Yeah. Going forward. The dps, the dps would

Paul: remember it and Yeah,

Sarah: yeah, yeah. And the operators and everything. Um, one of my favorite things that he did in this episode was so subtle, I don't think I've ever seen it before, but when Michael is driving up to the Bolshoi booze to the point where he gets out of the taxi, uhhuh or whatever, the truck that he's caught a ride in.[00:52:00]

The, the, um, the rear view mirror on the passenger side is chrome and it reflects the landscape in front of him. Cool. And first of all, it must have been a super pain in the ass to not get a camera in that reflection. Right. But it's beauti like it's perfectly sky horizon land, and it's just coming towards you, showing you what they're looking at shield.

So cool. And it's a beautiful shot. And then he gets out and all the heat reflections, he was smart enough to be like, get down low enough and we can see it so that we see how hot and the distortion, like it's gorgeous. It's so efficient. Um, and it looks like something out of a,

Paul: out of like a really classy Western Western.

Yeah. And it's, it's so efficient. Yep. It's like, it sounds like, oh, that's super complicated, but it actually, like, it may have taken it longer, but you only need one shot. Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, in theory it's a developing master, um, right. Developing master. So yes, yes, yes, yes, yes to, um, and also

Paul: [00:53:00] I'll say a lot of, um, push-ins in this episode.

Mm-hmm. A lot of like when, when Crae and, and, and Michael are in the, um, barn with the guys, like, there's a lot of like emotional push-ins that we don't do a lot on this show. There's also some extreme closeup work for you and me in particular.

Sarah: Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. Like I said, over 40, don't ever shoot me that close.

Like, don't, don't do that. In,

Paul: in, in, we used to call it on prison break, or Watkins called it, um, close, closer and Oh my God,

Sarah: a hundred percent.

Paul: And you can't move, like, that's the other thing. You gotta, you gotta realize that when you're that in that critical focus, you really can't. Move. I

Sarah: was tied to a chair, it was fine.

Fair enough. But I moved

Paul: my head when I act, so I'm like a Yeah, you do the Clooney thing. I do the Clooney, old Clooney thing. Uh, so, um, something

Sarah: else we remarked about that I thought was kind of cool is his slow motion bullet shot. Yeah. [00:54:00] Which is very hard to do. Um, the, uh,

Paul: the, the, the shell spinning.

Sarah: Yeah, the casing, um, coming towards from, from one bodyguard to the other bodyguard.

Um, and you also saw the smoke, smoke from the gun. So I did a shot like that on an episode of fire Country that I directed, but we shot it at 240 frames, I think. Um, and it was, that's probably the wrong frame rate, but like some crazy high. Yeah. Super. I mean, it was super slow. We were looking for that like guy Richie shot of like.

And the bullet was gonna be CGI. So we had to run a string from the tip of the gun to the place it was hitting and very and oh, and just go like that. But what I didn't know, because it was the first time I'd ever had a shot like that. What was the, since,

Paul: excuse me.

Sarah: Uh, the episode I did the [00:55:00] third season of Fire Country.

Fire Country. Okay. And we hadn't done anything like that on the show before. And so we were all kinda excited about it. And the DP was, you know, he had to get a special camera that could do the thing, and we set up for it and I walk onto the set and it's the light of the sun. And I was like, oh my God, what's going on?

He's like, oh, I have to hyper light that. Yeah, there's no,

Paul: it's moving so fast at

Sarah: that frame rate, otherwise it's gonna be too dark. And it was wild because I had a couple actors who had to be on set in full fireman gear, and it was like 95 degrees in there. And we were like, okay, so this is something that I am learning.

Um, and, you know, they were great about it. And because they were in full firemen gear, we actually just put, uh, ice packs. We gave them a vest and they wore ice packs around them. Wow. So they were fine. But it was, it was really interesting and it reminded me that anytime you change the frame rate, like 48 frames, which is typical, slow motion is not that big a deal.

But you go above that and you have to light it [00:56:00] really bright to compensate for how quickly, uh, I would think it would, would be how quickly I'm,

Paul: see I'm not a dp, but Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. It was a learning experience for me, but it's, anyway, as I was watching Greg's shot, I was like, I bet this is before you could do this in CG and you actually had to capture Uhhuh the real bullet on actual film.

Um, wow. Which is, you know,

Paul: super. A ton of work. Super impressive. Um, uh, I wanna talk about Ro Roy Rosemont. Oh god, she's good. Uh, I worked with her in private practice. She became friends. She's, um, just a wonderful actor.

Sarah: Okay. Wait, who did she play? Just so that people don't, I'm I'm

Paul: pro. Oh, she played the police officer that's dealing with ick, right?

At the, at the hospital. Yeah. And then when he finds Gary dead, she's like, we need to talk. I, I assume she'll be on the next episode too.

Sarah: She better be otherwise She's catastrophically under you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, you had said something about Dom [00:57:00] casting Dom. Yeah. Watching

Paul: Dom, you know, uh, he watching him fight in that fight scene, you just buy it.

Yeah. I mean, he's beating the shit outta that guy. Yeah. And, you know, uh, link the sink. Yeah. But it just, he's a big guy, but also you just buy him. I don't know if he was actually a scrapper. I know he was a surfer. I don't know if he was actually a fighter.

Sarah: I, I think he's had a share of,

Paul: yeah. I mean, I feel like share, I don't, I don't wanna make like cultural, uh, uh, generalizations, but it feels like most Australians.

Have scrapped around a little bit.

Sarah: Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. But also, like, it does give the show credibility, because I hate it when you look at two people in a fight and you're like, Nope, I'm sorry, that guy, you don't win this fight. That's

Paul: right.

Sarah: You don't win this fight. Not against that guy and not that easily or

Paul: whatever it is.

And that Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. But, uh, I buy it. Well, also the way they do it is every time, like he's

Paul: not like doing Kraft Maga, [00:58:00] he's just overpowering the guy and beating him to a pulp. It's like, it's very, yeah, it's very, uh, basic. And then there's some

Sarah: knife stuff that Oh, yeah. You know, like fight in the kitchen knife block.

Yeah. Yeah. Knife block. Big. Yes, please. Big, big, uh, yes. Butcher's

Paul: knife.

Paul (2): Scary.

Sarah: God, there's a lot in this episode for UUs in terms of like stunts and fights. A big episode. And then, speaking of which,

Paul: I, I guess it goes to theme and it goes to the scene with Michael letting those guys go. But I mean, they take a good, yeah.

Two minutes. And he goes to a church

Sarah: in the, the

Paul: confessions and confessions. I mean, that's a, um, big ask. Kind of like mm-hmm. Like it's seemed al almost outta left field. Obviously it directly pays. There's a theme going on in this episode of him feeling, which he basically states in that scene, which is, you know, am I, I have [00:59:00] let a lot of bad people do bad things mm-hmm.

In efforts to get, you know, and then it's great how it pays off. 'cause you think, oh, is he gonna let these guys go? Is he not gonna let 'em go? This guy's gonna bleed out and he lets him go. And the fact that he lets him go means the guy then gives him the actual coordinates of the plane. 'cause he had lied to him.

It's so great.

Sarah: Um, fascinating. Okay. I'm just gonna ask you one quick question because it's a very fast one at Stephanie Reed, 47 32 says, who do you enjoy playing more Lancer? Paul Paul. Okay. See that was a quick question. You guys, we will do more fan questions. We will, um, do you wanna do one real quick or should we sign off?

'cause I don't, I wanna

Paul: do one. Um, Rob Ter to Sarah.

Sarah: That's probably Roberto and I just typed it wrong, Roberto. Okay. Sorry Roberto.

Paul: Sarah, have you ever thought that the love story between Michael and Sarah got overshadowed by the action nest of the [01:00:00] show?

Sarah: Not really, because I think that's the show. I think this is, yeah, I think this is a show about Phil, about familial love between two brothers and everything is in service of that and the love story.

I think it's a different show if the love story is at the heart of it. Yeah. Um, that's right. I think that's right. But I do think without the love story, the, the action part of it doesn't matter. Yep. And I mean that love story between the familial love story, you know what I mean? Like between Maho and Pam and then later Maho and Land.

Yeah. Yeah. And Lane and between Lincoln and lj, like

Paul: Yep. You know, I, I think that what, what a show does when it's a really great, great, great great show is like almost every relationship is somehow an echo of the primary idea. [01:01:00]

Sarah: Yeah.

Paul: In some way or absolutely. Or another. What in this one has to do with like, what will you, what would you do for love?

What would you do for family?

Paul (2): Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. And when do you know if you've crossed over episode and when, do you know if you crossed line episode specifically? Yeah. Because in some ways this is the episode where Kellerman a hundred percent almost looks like he doesn't wanna cross the line. And something that I thought was, this will be my last thought, then we'll do our credits.

Um, something that interested me actually. I don't remember making a decision about this. I, I think this was just sort of intuitive. I don't see a moment, nor do I remember one where Sarah even considers telling no. Kellerman what he wants to hear. No. She, I don't think there's a moment of, and she figures it out halfway through I fucking key.

Paul: Right. Well, I think Yes. Which I think is great before the torture

Sarah: starts. Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. And I think that that's really cool because also I, I don't think it, I think it speaks to her, uh, character in terms of she knows he's up to no [01:02:00] good. But I also think it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a reaction to betrayal.

Paul (2): Mm.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. It's like, I will not give you, it's like a screw you. Yeah. Like, no. Yeah. Uhuh, yeah. Yeah. There's an oppositional aspect to it. Yeah. I think also there is. Of I, I think there's also, from her perspective, once you're in this room, you're not coming out Uhhuh. These are the people who killed my father.

These are the people who are trying to kill Lincoln again, Uhhuh like, they got me. It's over. I can either go out with some shred of integrity and dignity, or I can go out without it, but I don't think Kellerman may feel like I don't have to. Yeah. You don't believe, get outta here. You

Paul: don't believe him at all?

I don't think so. You think you're done?

Sarah: I don't think so. Yeah. I think so. I think as soon as like she's in that hotel room, there's a like, yeah. Oh. Oh, all right. Yeah. You know, it's been pointing in this direction for a while, like things have been getting worse. Oh.

Paul (2): Oh man. Okay.

Sarah: Anyway. Uh. Thanks for all your questions.

I know we didn't answer them specifically by name, [01:03:00] but we wrapped things up

Paul (2): breaking.

Sarah: Paul thinks you'd be happier if you had a mug. I do. It made me happy. There's a bunch of different styles. Mine is still in the, uh, in the mail, in the, the Post. I'm looking forward to it. The post, the Canada Post.

Paul: All right.

Um, all

Sarah: right. You wanna wrap up?

Paul: Yeah.

Sarah: Is that what you've been doing while we've been talking? That's

Paul: where I took my notes. I love it. Uh, prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a caliber studio production.

Sarah: Uh, your hosts have been inmates. Sarah Wayne Call and Paul

Paul: Stein, prison War producer Ben Haber.

Sarah: Front man of our jailhouse rock band is, Hey, that guy Paul Stein, who made all our music and is making so much noise. Folding paper,

Paul: sorry. Our prison yard tattoo artist logo and brand designers. John Nunzio at Little Big Brands. Check 'em out at www little big brands.com.

Sarah: You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube at Prison Break Podcast.

You can email us at pb podcast@caliberstudio.com. You can call us at [01:04:00] four oh one three PB break. You can also join our Patreon community, um, on the link wherever you are listening right now.

Paul: And you can get merch.

Sarah: Oh yeah. March

Paul: Prison. Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a caliber studio production.

Thank you for listening.

Sarah: Thank you for listening. Bye guys.