00:00:12:24 - 00:00:13:11 So welcome

00:00:13:11 - 00:00:16:11 to our weekly livestream recording of the magazine,

00:00:16:11 - 00:00:17:09 a podcast series

00:00:17:09 - 00:00:21:09 devoted to acquisition entrepreneurs, search funds and hold co builders.

00:00:21:12 - 00:00:21:26 This week,

00:00:21:26 - 00:00:24:05 we're diving right into the first of our interviews

00:00:24:05 - 00:00:26:17 with emerging searches and established acquirers,

00:00:26:17 - 00:00:29:17 and we're thrilled to have Florian Willis join us today.

00:00:29:18 - 00:00:32:11 Florian leads Hamburg Ventures, which are currently

00:00:32:11 - 00:00:36:16 in the process of acquiring a business, but his path here has been fascinating.

00:00:36:17 - 00:00:37:18 After nearly a decade

00:00:37:18 - 00:00:41:14 helping launch iconic products like the iPhone and Apple Music,

00:00:41:16 - 00:00:45:10 he's managed hundreds of millions in revenue and spent another decade then

00:00:45:10 - 00:00:49:08 building and scaling startups, culminating in selling his own e-commerce venture.

00:00:49:11 - 00:00:52:32 And now he's applying that wealth of experience and innovation in digitization

00:00:53:05 - 00:00:55:24 to the world of entrepreneurship through acquisitions.

00:00:55:24 - 00:00:58:11 So, Florian, welcome to the show.

00:00:58:14 - 00:00:58:28 Thank you.

00:00:58:28 - 00:01:00:31 Thanks a lot for having me.

00:01:00:31 - 00:01:01:28 It's an absolute pleasure.

00:01:01:28 - 00:01:04:28 Thank you for finding the time in your busy schedule

00:01:05:00 - 00:01:08:23 to come and tell us about your journey and share that with our listeners.

00:01:08:26 - 00:01:10:28 So I want to get started, if we can, with your background

00:01:10:28 - 00:01:14:14 and if you can give us a bit of a whistle stop tour of your path to here.

00:01:14:23 - 00:01:18:17 I mentioned there that you were with Apple during its period of explosive growth,

00:01:18:20 - 00:01:22:22 and then you also had a significant time spent in the startup world.

00:01:22:23 - 00:01:24:29 So you've seen both sides of the equation.

00:01:24:29 - 00:01:29:00 But can you walk us through your journey and how these distinct experiences

00:01:29:00 - 00:01:32:12 from like hypergrowth corporate to the scrappy

00:01:32:12 - 00:01:38:02 startup have helped shape the skills you bring to the ETF world?

00:01:38:05 - 00:01:39:26 Yeah.

00:01:39:26 - 00:01:44:19 So so as you as you said, I was at Apple almost ten years before that.

00:01:44:19 - 00:01:48:21 I was actually also kind of in technology and

00:01:48:23 - 00:01:51:10 marketing technology really it was search engines.

00:01:51:10 - 00:01:56:04 So the other big innovation, I guess really before

00:01:56:06 - 00:01:59:13 I that kind of changed the way

00:01:59:13 - 00:02:04:22 we could do business and promote our businesses and,

00:02:04:25 - 00:02:07:31 and yeah, I guess some,

00:02:08:00 - 00:02:12:01 you know, often I get the question about why did you leave Apple?

00:02:12:04 - 00:02:14:01 Because I was doing quite well.

00:02:14:01 - 00:02:17:33 I had a really great job, which I call the best job in the world

00:02:17:33 - 00:02:22:23 like this and working for Apple Music.

00:02:22:26 - 00:02:24:29 But the thing is that I wanted

00:02:24:29 - 00:02:29:26 to to also be entrepreneurial and take all the decisions

00:02:29:26 - 00:02:33:05 in big companies or do you know, huge things.

00:02:33:08 - 00:02:35:13 But you do a kind of small thing

00:02:35:13 - 00:02:39:03 of of the huge things and decisions take very long, etc..

00:02:39:06 - 00:02:44:06 So then going into the entrepreneurial world did give me all of

00:02:44:08 - 00:02:47:06 all of this exposure that I wanted

00:02:47:06 - 00:02:52:23 and I was able to learn so much that I wasn't

00:02:52:26 - 00:02:55:33 able to learn even though I was managing huge budgets

00:02:55:33 - 00:02:59:30 and huge projects with insane amounts of users, etc..

00:02:59:33 - 00:03:03:20 Actually, you know, being able to set your own price to,

00:03:03:20 - 00:03:07:33 to design the packaging to even build a website for your own business,

00:03:07:33 - 00:03:10:33 you learn so many things that,

00:03:11:04 - 00:03:14:05 that yeah, were really incremental, I would say.

00:03:14:11 - 00:03:18:12 And to your question, I guess that's really what I find

00:03:18:12 - 00:03:21:21 so valuable now with Etta and why I feel like I'm really

00:03:21:21 - 00:03:25:15 in a good position having seen these sort of,

00:03:25:18 - 00:03:29:03 you know, how you want it to look eventually,

00:03:29:05 - 00:03:32:00 but also the little scrappy stuff that you need

00:03:32:00 - 00:03:35:00 to do in the beginning to get to things.

00:03:35:04 - 00:03:39:13 So so that combination I think, has been really useful.

00:03:39:16 - 00:03:41:05 Yeah, I think

00:03:41:07 - 00:03:43:14 being able to see

00:03:43:14 - 00:03:45:13 the the activity of doing

00:03:45:13 - 00:03:50:00 small bits of huge things and then the other side of the coin

00:03:50:00 - 00:03:53:01 of learning by doing of just everything rests on your shoulders

00:03:53:01 - 00:03:54:32 and you have to get involved in the stuff

00:03:54:32 - 00:03:57:32 that perhaps in a corporation you can delegate.

00:03:57:33 - 00:04:02:29 You've clearly, though, chosen the latter because Etta is often

00:04:02:29 - 00:04:06:00 seen as the, you know, the other roll your sleeves up and get stuck

00:04:06:00 - 00:04:09:00 in equivalent to the startup world.

00:04:09:04 - 00:04:12:07 I'm interested by your background because in our preamble

00:04:12:07 - 00:04:16:20 you've mentioned that you come from a family of innovators.

00:04:16:23 - 00:04:21:16 How did that go into your your your path here?

00:04:21:19 - 00:04:24:17 And, you know, I think that really.

00:04:24:17 - 00:04:26:28 So my grandfather was a

00:04:26:28 - 00:04:30:08 you know, what I call him an inventor, really mechanical engineer.

00:04:30:08 - 00:04:31:18 We would say nowadays.

00:04:31:18 - 00:04:34:16 And and he worked in the railway industry

00:04:34:16 - 00:04:39:27 and had some big patents that my father then built a business

00:04:39:27 - 00:04:44:01 that was basically a delivery service, was the first bike

00:04:44:01 - 00:04:48:33 courier in Europe, very successful in Germany. And

00:04:49:01 - 00:04:49:19 it's really

00:04:49:19 - 00:04:52:19 quite interesting because he passed away in 92.

00:04:52:19 - 00:04:57:03 So having been here to see, you know, what the well became, but

00:04:57:06 - 00:04:59:30 when you think about what Uber

00:04:59:30 - 00:05:02:30 is and Uber eats and all that,

00:05:02:30 - 00:05:07:12 it was kind of the same system that he was using.

00:05:07:12 - 00:05:12:12 He was it was very innovative at that time to have your drivers

00:05:12:12 - 00:05:15:14 be contractors and not be full time employees.

00:05:15:22 - 00:05:17:22 That's how he managed to scale that business.

00:05:17:22 - 00:05:20:24 And that was in the eighties and nineties.

00:05:20:24 - 00:05:25:19 So, you know, we don't reinvent anything I guess and

00:05:25:22 - 00:05:27:27 but yeah, all that to say that

00:05:27:27 - 00:05:32:07 I do think that when you have that in your family

00:05:32:09 - 00:05:35:33 it leaves a mark and it leaves this just this sort of you see what's

00:05:36:00 - 00:05:38:03 what it could be like to have your own business

00:05:38:03 - 00:05:43:04 and to make the decisions and to be creative and really so many ways.

00:05:43:07 - 00:05:46:09 And that's what it did with me.

00:05:46:09 - 00:05:48:19 And I bring it from very young age.

00:05:48:19 - 00:05:50:11 I always said I wanted to be an inventor.

00:05:50:11 - 00:05:53:00 And really what I understand now, what that means is

00:05:53:00 - 00:05:54:15 I wanted to be an entrepreneur.

00:05:54:15 - 00:05:59:20 I wanted to create things for people to to use or to to like, you know,

00:05:59:23 - 00:06:01:28 which was the world that you were around.

00:06:01:28 - 00:06:06:01 And I guess that felt very familiar to you as you were kind of perhaps

00:06:06:04 - 00:06:08:22 hearing of your father's stories of building the business

00:06:08:22 - 00:06:09:33 and going through the the struggle

00:06:09:33 - 00:06:13:23 and the hustle of bringing something, you know, to life, if you will.

00:06:13:26 - 00:06:19:20 So there is a correlation amongst successful search acquisition

00:06:19:20 - 00:06:24:01 entrepreneurs who have come from families of entrepreneurship and innovation.

00:06:24:01 - 00:06:27:08 So you're not alone there.

00:06:27:11 - 00:06:29:21 But what specifically brought you to this

00:06:29:21 - 00:06:32:32 wonderful new path of of ETA, then what?

00:06:33:01 - 00:06:36:06 Having done the corporate and done the starting from scratch,

00:06:36:06 - 00:06:40:19 what has attracted you to to buying And yeah that's

00:06:40:22 - 00:06:43:15 I think really interesting and sort of

00:06:43:15 - 00:06:48:11 I guess really this big boom of of ETA that we see now,

00:06:48:15 - 00:06:51:08 at least it feels like that from the inside because suddenly you see it

00:06:51:08 - 00:06:55:01 everywhere, because it's definitely a boom now, but still a long way to go.

00:06:55:04 - 00:06:59:20 Boom echoes the venture boom, for example, that Exactly.

00:06:59:20 - 00:07:02:14 But so this is exactly what I was going to say.

00:07:02:14 - 00:07:04:19 So I was

00:07:04:22 - 00:07:08:11 at Apple always very interested in, you know, innovation.

00:07:08:11 - 00:07:11:25 Even within Apple, I worked in the App Store very early on, for example.

00:07:11:30 - 00:07:15:11 So I was working with loads of startups there, really innovative

00:07:15:14 - 00:07:19:03 revenue models as well and and stuff like that.

00:07:19:03 - 00:07:23:10 So I was always into what is this, you know, what is the new thing

00:07:23:11 - 00:07:27:06 to do in businesses and all of that. But

00:07:27:09 - 00:07:29:20 and that was also a reason why it, why I then left

00:07:29:20 - 00:07:32:23 and wanted to do my own thing and work with startups, etc..

00:07:32:29 - 00:07:36:13 However, all of that was always the startup world.

00:07:36:13 - 00:07:39:29 It was always me, see, it was always Angel, right?

00:07:39:29 - 00:07:43:30 And I kind of was under the impression that that was the two option.

00:07:43:30 - 00:07:47:21 There were either you go corporate or you build your own startup.

00:07:47:24 - 00:07:51:08 And and I'm like, suddenly,

00:07:51:11 - 00:07:54:09 excuse me, that's what the system would like you to believe.

00:07:54:09 - 00:07:57:01 You know, the. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

00:07:57:01 - 00:08:00:30 And and so as a then suddenly discovered that

00:08:00:32 - 00:08:05:25 you know it it was possible to buy someone else's business

00:08:05:28 - 00:08:09:27 that had a foundation that was profitable already

00:08:09:30 - 00:08:12:30 and that then you could you could innovate from there.

00:08:13:02 - 00:08:16:30 That really suited my situation at that moment much more.

00:08:16:30 - 00:08:19:02 I still think that, you know, for some people,

00:08:19:02 - 00:08:21:30 and especially when you're younger, startups make a lot of sense.

00:08:21:30 - 00:08:24:32 And if you want hypergrowth, if you think you want to be a billionaire,

00:08:25:06 - 00:08:27:29 all of that, it's probably great to do startups.

00:08:27:29 - 00:08:31:08 But it doesn't matter how often we we tell people.

00:08:31:08 - 00:08:35:21 But the success in the startup world is so small,

00:08:35:21 - 00:08:40:09 the percentage of people that managed to to make a success of their business

00:08:40:12 - 00:08:42:32 a success worth talking about at least.

00:08:42:32 - 00:08:46:24 And and so it's incredibly hard.

00:08:46:24 - 00:08:50:15 And so then having this middle ground as a person, I've got two, two young

00:08:50:15 - 00:08:54:14 children now, you know, I'm not I'm not 25 anymore.

00:08:54:15 - 00:08:59:21 So and actually, for me, it is a really good middle ground

00:08:59:21 - 00:09:03:10 to think I can take a successful business that has done well.

00:09:03:17 - 00:09:07:20 But in most of the cases, you know,

00:09:07:23 - 00:09:11:07 systems and and and loads of things are quite

00:09:11:09 - 00:09:14:03 old in the businesses that I look at.

00:09:14:03 - 00:09:18:04 And I can go in there with my experience and make it more modern and

00:09:18:12 - 00:09:22:19 and suddenly be on on a really great scale

00:09:22:22 - 00:09:26:18 while being independent because that, that was always the thing, right?

00:09:26:21 - 00:09:27:23 Yeah, absolutely.

00:09:27:23 - 00:09:29:07 Well, let's get into that independent shall we.

00:09:29:07 - 00:09:30:19 Let's get into,

00:09:30:19 - 00:09:34:13 you know, the current activity with Hamburg Ventures

00:09:34:13 - 00:09:39:13 and particularly the thesis that you have, seems that you are looking

00:09:39:21 - 00:09:43:07 at targets through the lenses of innovation and digitization.

00:09:43:07 - 00:09:45:16 So could you unpack that for us?

00:09:45:16 - 00:09:46:32 What does that practically look like

00:09:46:32 - 00:09:50:16 when you're evaluating your potential acquisition targets?

00:09:50:19 - 00:09:52:18 Yeah, the reason I,

00:09:52:18 - 00:09:57:04 I worked in that way is that being in this world of ETA,

00:09:57:04 - 00:10:00:06 now I see who's around me and a lot of people for now,

00:10:00:07 - 00:10:04:02 I mean that there's more and more sort of

00:10:04:05 - 00:10:07:12 unconventional backgrounds as well that come in.

00:10:07:12 - 00:10:10:10 But what I see a lot

00:10:10:13 - 00:10:11:33 is people that have a finance

00:10:11:33 - 00:10:15:26 background, people that have a management consulting background.

00:10:15:28 - 00:10:20:11 And I think it's quite obvious what these people

00:10:20:11 - 00:10:23:29 can bring to a small business that gets get sold.

00:10:23:29 - 00:10:27:15 They have very clear skills that are applicable to

00:10:27:18 - 00:10:29:09 almost every business really.

00:10:29:09 - 00:10:33:16 So so I completely understand that my, my background is just different.

00:10:33:16 - 00:10:37:33 I'm an operator, I've got marketing, I've got this innovation and digitization

00:10:38:06 - 00:10:40:04 background. So that's what I know.

00:10:40:04 - 00:10:41:10 And so that's also how

00:10:41:10 - 00:10:45:29 I look at any company that I look at and really in practice, what that means.

00:10:45:31 - 00:10:49:28 It is, it's

00:10:49:31 - 00:10:54:03 I can't really sort of generalize, but, but really

00:10:54:03 - 00:10:58:11 what it means is that I very quickly usually when I talk to a to an owner,

00:10:58:18 - 00:11:02:04 I very quickly find out whether I think there's opportunities

00:11:02:10 - 00:11:06:18 that I can unlock or not and that that is important to me.

00:11:06:18 - 00:11:09:10 I don't just want to buy a business because the business is great,

00:11:09:10 - 00:11:11:07 but I don't really know what I'll do in it.

00:11:11:07 - 00:11:14:06 I need to be able straight away to have a vision

00:11:14:06 - 00:11:17:09 and see like, this thing you can do with a product.

00:11:17:17 - 00:11:18:33 He has some growth opportunities.

00:11:18:33 - 00:11:21:22 I know how to unlock those and all of that.

00:11:21:22 - 00:11:25:04 So so that's what I mean when I say I look at it in,

00:11:25:07 - 00:11:29:27 in terms of innovation and digitization and

00:11:29:30 - 00:11:31:19 these are actually things

00:11:31:19 - 00:11:36:13 which is great because the XP guys and girls

00:11:36:16 - 00:11:39:15 are probably looking at it from a financial engineering

00:11:39:15 - 00:11:41:01 as a first principle,

00:11:41:01 - 00:11:43:28 whereas you'll wake working from the, the other angle, I think,

00:11:43:28 - 00:11:46:30 which they end up in the same place, but you're practically looking

00:11:46:30 - 00:11:51:16 at the operation, the product that where, where you can

00:11:51:16 - 00:11:56:01 tangibly drive value creation in order to do, in order

00:11:56:05 - 00:12:00:07 for that to play out in the spreadsheet and in the, you know, the PNL.

00:12:00:10 - 00:12:01:03 Yeah.

00:12:01:03 - 00:12:03:01 And actually, no,

00:12:03:01 - 00:12:04:15 sorry, go ahead.

00:12:04:15 - 00:12:06:33 I guess what I was going to say, though, I do need

00:12:06:33 - 00:12:09:33 also to

00:12:10:08 - 00:12:13:28 I needed to learn a lot of the more financial things, etc.

00:12:13:28 - 00:12:17:29 and I'm obviously not at all at the level where a lot of others are

00:12:17:29 - 00:12:21:09 because it's just not my background.

00:12:21:12 - 00:12:24:16 But like you say, there is actually this whole other angle

00:12:24:16 - 00:12:28:20 that is really relevant and to talk to, to, you know,

00:12:28:20 - 00:12:32:33 something that might come up a bit more in this conversation, owners

00:12:33:02 - 00:12:36:25 actually really connect with that because a lot of these owners

00:12:36:32 - 00:12:41:00 they are do is they have built a business not because they've got a business degree

00:12:41:00 - 00:12:41:14 or something.

00:12:41:14 - 00:12:43:17 They've just done their product and it became big

00:12:43:17 - 00:12:46:17 and now they make a couple of million with it and and that's that.

00:12:46:18 - 00:12:49:09 But they just know the day to day stuff.

00:12:49:09 - 00:12:52:21 They usually not that

00:12:52:24 - 00:12:55:20 you know, educated financially, etc..

00:12:55:20 - 00:12:58:28 So when I come in I tell them about like, look,

00:12:58:31 - 00:13:02:04 we can grow the business here or we should do marketing this way.

00:13:02:06 - 00:13:04:02 They usually,

00:13:04:05 - 00:13:04:21 while they

00:13:04:21 - 00:13:07:28 don't always, you know, they, they don't always know how to do it

00:13:07:28 - 00:13:11:07 themselves, they often felt like, yes, that that's what we want.

00:13:11:07 - 00:13:14:12 That's exactly what we were trying to achieve all this time, etc..

00:13:14:12 - 00:13:17:09 So it's quite, quite good for connection.

00:13:17:09 - 00:13:17:28 Absolutely.

00:13:17:28 - 00:13:19:26 Well, the product and the customers in the market,

00:13:19:26 - 00:13:23:10 they're all tangible to the owner, to the seller,

00:13:23:12 - 00:13:25:18 you know, that's what they've lived and breathed.

00:13:25:18 - 00:13:30:30 You know, it's perhaps less abstract than the spreadsheets are.

00:13:30:33 - 00:13:34:08 You know, oftentimes these are these are practical people

00:13:34:08 - 00:13:38:09 that delegate the financial alchemy to to to someone else.

00:13:38:11 - 00:13:43:11 And so have you found that it's helped you resonate and connect and

00:13:43:14 - 00:13:47:05 actually get more quickly to meaningful, trust based relationships with

00:13:47:07 - 00:13:52:07 these sellers where you have connected on product and market?

00:13:52:10 - 00:13:53:30 Yes. No, exactly that.

00:13:53:30 - 00:13:55:12 That's exactly what I mean.

00:13:55:12 - 00:14:01:01 It we we speak the same language and I've even been told more than once

00:14:01:04 - 00:14:06:01 that, it's nice to be talking to someone about something else than the numbers

00:14:06:03 - 00:14:09:20 because I asked some things about the numbers, some basics.

00:14:09:20 - 00:14:14:20 But like I say, for me it's not actually if there's a healthy EBIDTA and,

00:14:14:21 - 00:14:20:02 and I think, you know, my costs and maybe some costs that I want to

00:14:20:04 - 00:14:24:06 build into the business will work out, then I'm kind of fine with the finances.

00:14:24:06 - 00:14:26:27 Then I'm like, okay, we'll figure that out.

00:14:26:27 - 00:14:27:14 I need to know

00:14:27:14 - 00:14:30:07 that I can grow the business that, that that's what I care about.

00:14:30:07 - 00:14:30:16 Yeah.

00:14:30:16 - 00:14:32:31 And the growth comes through serving customers very well

00:14:32:31 - 00:14:37:27 with excellent products in, in markets where there's an opportunity to grow like

00:14:37:30 - 00:14:39:02 that or look after numbers.

00:14:39:02 - 00:14:41:01 If you get that bit right, one would hope.

00:14:41:01 - 00:14:42:10 But yeah, great.

00:14:42:10 - 00:14:45:13 Well, so what's your search journey been like up to this point?

00:14:45:13 - 00:14:48:30 We'll probably get in a second into your current sort of.

00:14:48:32 - 00:14:52:03 I mean, we know that you're knee deep in a deal

00:14:52:03 - 00:14:55:15 at the moment and I don't want you to talk too much to that while it's in motion.

00:14:55:15 - 00:14:57:04 But what's the journey been like?

00:14:57:04 - 00:14:58:22 You start searching.

00:14:58:22 - 00:15:01:22 How has the process gone up to now?

00:15:01:23 - 00:15:04:23 Yeah, so I actually well,

00:15:04:28 - 00:15:07:28 to say upfront, I think I'm

00:15:08:02 - 00:15:11:24 I'm maybe a bit slower and then then some

00:15:11:27 - 00:15:16:09 it is almost by design and I just know how I function and there's

00:15:16:09 - 00:15:21:16 no I need to understand things properly to feel comfortable doing them.

00:15:21:16 - 00:15:22:17 That's true in business.

00:15:22:17 - 00:15:25:14 It's also true in this completely new process for me.

00:15:25:14 - 00:15:31:21 So when I decided, when I discovered a search or ETA, I actually took about

00:15:31:21 - 00:15:36:20 three months where I said, okay, that was up to basically January 24.

00:15:36:28 - 00:15:41:06 I said, This month I will just spend learning.

00:15:41:06 - 00:15:45:21 I will just look, read, you know, look at all the things that I can find

00:15:45:21 - 00:15:49:15 and just educate myself so that then I am confident

00:15:49:15 - 00:15:55:13 that I can talk to an owner and then kind of look semi-serious

00:15:55:16 - 00:15:57:17 and so that's what I did.

00:15:57:17 - 00:16:01:14 And, and then in January 24, I started searching.

00:16:01:17 - 00:16:05:23 Now that's already, you know, scarily

00:16:05:26 - 00:16:06:23 long.

00:16:06:23 - 00:16:07:27 Look at the calendar.

00:16:07:27 - 00:16:10:22 Now it's 15 months of search so far. Yeah.

00:16:10:22 - 00:16:13:22 Not just the number that you say. Thank you.

00:16:13:30 - 00:16:19:20 I it's something I try not to think about because I actually quite quickly

00:16:19:23 - 00:16:23:13 got into contact with two deals,

00:16:23:15 - 00:16:27:08 about 3 to 3, four months in.

00:16:27:11 - 00:16:30:25 I was talking to two different businesses

00:16:30:27 - 00:16:33:15 that became pretty serious.

00:16:33:15 - 00:16:36:14 And with both of them I was

00:16:36:14 - 00:16:39:17 actually talking very deeply about terms about pricing.

00:16:39:17 - 00:16:43:28 We we were in agreement, so we were very close to moving forward

00:16:43:31 - 00:16:45:04 into the next step.

00:16:45:04 - 00:16:50:03 And both of those then it kind of fell through within the same week.

00:16:50:05 - 00:16:57:04 And in September 24, that was and

00:16:57:07 - 00:17:00:06 that was kind of hard. But

00:17:00:06 - 00:17:04:06 so just to just explain, they both were dipping in revenue.

00:17:04:06 - 00:17:10:05 One lost a big client and then decided that he wanted to gain that revenue again

00:17:10:05 - 00:17:14:00 so that he could actually get to the price that he was asking for.

00:17:14:02 - 00:17:15:02 So he left.

00:17:15:02 - 00:17:17:28 The other person just was sticking with that price.

00:17:17:28 - 00:17:20:29 And I was saying, I can't justify that.

00:17:20:29 - 00:17:25:04 That price, while your revenue is is is decreasing.

00:17:25:07 - 00:17:29:11 And so we we agreed not to go forward.

00:17:29:13 - 00:17:31:32 And that was really hard,

00:17:31:32 - 00:17:34:14 but it actually was not as hard as I expected.

00:17:34:14 - 00:17:36:31 And I think part of that was that I had heard this story

00:17:36:31 - 00:17:40:05 so many times before from others such as saying like,

00:17:40:13 - 00:17:45:03 I had X amount of deals for few weeks before I managed to close my deal.

00:17:45:06 - 00:17:50:12 And and I, I was I guess I was hoping while I was in those

00:17:50:19 - 00:17:54:03 that I would be able to close something within, you know, less than a year.

00:17:54:06 - 00:17:58:01 But I always also saw the statistics from the Stanford study

00:17:58:01 - 00:18:01:27 and all of that that that say that you know, the average takes,

00:18:01:30 - 00:18:06:06 I don't know one and a half years or between one and two years

00:18:06:09 - 00:18:09:02 is not uncommon.

00:18:09:02 - 00:18:13:23 And so then I thought, okay, well, that's how it is.

00:18:13:26 - 00:18:17:12 I then managed to get find another deal, the one that I'm in right now,

00:18:17:18 - 00:18:23:00 quite quickly after the one that I think in October, that was 24.

00:18:23:02 - 00:18:28:24 But you know, then starts this whole dance that it it just takes ages.

00:18:28:24 - 00:18:30:05 Everything takes ages.

00:18:30:05 - 00:18:34:10 And especially in the beginning when sellers don't like completely trust you,

00:18:34:15 - 00:18:37:19 they own this process, but they've spoken to other people so much

00:18:37:19 - 00:18:41:19 and they just don't really,

00:18:41:22 - 00:18:43:26 you know, answer quickly.

00:18:43:26 - 00:18:47:06 Sometimes I needed two weeks to get answers anyways,

00:18:47:06 - 00:18:52:08 so that all meant that we got to we signed heads of terms

00:18:52:08 - 00:18:56:15 in early January 25

00:18:56:18 - 00:19:02:05 and we wanted to close yesterday and

00:19:02:07 - 00:19:03:20 unfortunately

00:19:03:20 - 00:19:07:02 I had a lender that was going to support the deal

00:19:07:02 - 00:19:12:01 and they they, you know, fell through in February.

00:19:12:04 - 00:19:16:23 And so now I'm I'm looking for kind of,

00:19:16:23 - 00:19:22:04 yeah, either restructuring or finding another lender for this deal.

00:19:22:07 - 00:19:24:19 So that's that's my journey up and down.

00:19:24:19 - 00:19:25:12 Yeah.

00:19:25:12 - 00:19:29:13 You've had your fair share of adversity along there on the road, but like you say,

00:19:29:15 - 00:19:33:13 quite comparable to many others in terms of trying to align

00:19:33:13 - 00:19:37:07 all of the planets in order to make the deal come to fruition

00:19:37:10 - 00:19:40:14 exactly as to hear that you weren't thrown off your stride

00:19:40:14 - 00:19:43:13 and that it didn't destroy your confidence in proceeding

00:19:43:13 - 00:19:45:12 and finding the next opportunity like that.

00:19:45:12 - 00:19:49:33 Those two must have been a pretty sad week to see both of them go up in smoke.

00:19:49:33 - 00:19:52:22 But you know what doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

00:19:52:22 - 00:19:55:28 And as I always say, it's off until it's on.

00:19:55:31 - 00:19:57:07 And, you know,

00:19:57:07 - 00:20:00:18 there's just like conceiving children and bringing them into the world.

00:20:00:18 - 00:20:05:08 You know, there's so many things that have to go right in order for, you know,

00:20:05:11 - 00:20:07:11 the process to complete.

00:20:07:11 - 00:20:10:08 So, yeah, glad that you've got one underway,

00:20:10:08 - 00:20:15:21 but without speaking too much to anything that's going to be confidential,

00:20:15:23 - 00:20:19:24 perhaps you could speak to, you know, what particularly happened with the lender.

00:20:19:27 - 00:20:21:24 You know, you mentioned that they withdrew.

00:20:21:24 - 00:20:24:23 Was that their change of appetite or is it

00:20:24:23 - 00:20:28:12 something to do with their availability of funds?

00:20:28:15 - 00:20:31:02 It's one of these things I guess we'll never know.

00:20:31:02 - 00:20:37:00 But one interesting thing that happened was that

00:20:37:03 - 00:20:39:22 just about a week or so before,

00:20:39:22 - 00:20:43:27 they said that they didn't have too much appetite anymore,

00:20:43:30 - 00:20:48:05 the manager within the lender who had been,

00:20:48:08 - 00:20:52:24 you know, advocating for my deal, as you know, they have the people

00:20:52:24 - 00:20:57:13 that look at your deal initially and they didn't take it to a voluntary.

00:20:57:16 - 00:20:57:31 Exactly.

00:20:57:31 - 00:21:01:13 Group of people that that will agree altogether whether you do it or not.

00:21:01:16 - 00:21:05:24 And and this guy I had spoken with him on the phone once

00:21:05:24 - 00:21:08:30 and he said that he was actually had some of the products

00:21:08:30 - 00:21:13:26 that this company sells and which it's quite an

00:21:13:29 - 00:21:17:10 I mean, it's a consumer product and and

00:21:17:12 - 00:21:18:09 fairly specific.

00:21:18:09 - 00:21:24:00 So so I think that there might have been that that got his interest in it

00:21:24:00 - 00:21:27:13 and wanting to to champion it and

00:21:27:16 - 00:21:30:14 but then he left the company

00:21:30:14 - 00:21:34:12 and when I heard that news, I said to my debt

00:21:34:12 - 00:21:38:04 broker like, that feels like this is not going to be good.

00:21:38:06 - 00:21:39:17 And sure enough,

00:21:39:17 - 00:21:43:01 a week later I was informed that they weren't interested any more.

00:21:43:04 - 00:21:48:00 So I don't know if that would ever work, if it would ever have gone to the end.

00:21:48:03 - 00:21:52:14 But ultimately what they say is

00:21:52:17 - 00:21:55:11 they don't like me to see particularly never.

00:21:55:11 - 00:21:58:25 But you know, they were still considering this

00:21:58:28 - 00:22:02:02 this business, what they may

00:22:02:02 - 00:22:05:02 mainly concerned about is,

00:22:05:03 - 00:22:06:22 as they call it, infrastructure.

00:22:06:22 - 00:22:08:28 There isn't many systems in place.

00:22:08:28 - 00:22:12:28 There isn't really second tier management yet, even though I

00:22:12:31 - 00:22:15:29 the sellers are not leaving, they are staying.

00:22:15:29 - 00:22:19:17 But the the the lenders are concerned about that.

00:22:19:20 - 00:22:22:20 And so it's kind of standard stuff.

00:22:22:24 - 00:22:25:13 You speak to the side of the business because

00:22:25:13 - 00:22:28:26 it'd be interesting to sort of correlate in terms of size

00:22:28:29 - 00:22:32:00 to the half a million or something in terms of its revenues

00:22:32:00 - 00:22:36:26 or along those lines like because it sounds to me like the lender

00:22:36:28 - 00:22:40:19 hasn't necessarily calibrated to what you're bringing to the table

00:22:40:19 - 00:22:42:19 in terms of your willingness to operate the company

00:22:42:19 - 00:22:45:20 and the fact that you want to improve the systems to generate upside.

00:22:45:24 - 00:22:46:28 Exactly.

00:22:46:28 - 00:22:50:04 So everything that I've named are the opportunities

00:22:50:06 - 00:22:51:30 and and if they want that

00:22:51:30 - 00:22:54:13 and I don't even know why they would consider the business.

00:22:54:13 - 00:22:56:16 Yeah, that goes to what I was saying earlier.

00:22:56:16 - 00:22:58:04 I only am interested in businesses

00:22:58:04 - 00:23:01:11 where I see opportunities where I can make a difference on day one.

00:23:01:11 - 00:23:04:03 Right. So. But is it a super

00:23:04:06 - 00:23:05:31 I'm not a psychiatrist.

00:23:05:31 - 00:23:09:03 It's it's still about 2 million in revenue.

00:23:09:06 - 00:23:13:08 And so yeah

00:23:13:11 - 00:23:16:11 not huge revenue It's got very good margins though

00:23:16:17 - 00:23:20:09 so so yeah that that makes it very interesting.

00:23:20:11 - 00:23:26:17 And is this Ed is this lender familiar with the acquisition entrepreneurship Yes.

00:23:26:17 - 00:23:27:05 Paradigm.

00:23:27:05 - 00:23:29:29 I mean if they get on other deals like this.

00:23:29:29 - 00:23:30:31 Yeah. Yeah they are.

00:23:30:31 - 00:23:33:18 They are a known known entity in this world.

00:23:33:18 - 00:23:37:23 But you know, I knew when I was going into it that all of them

00:23:37:27 - 00:23:41:26 the, the four or five or six that we all know in the UK

00:23:41:29 - 00:23:47:13 and they all want B-to-B businesses, they want top quality or and all of that

00:23:47:22 - 00:23:51:07 And this type of company is just not in that world.

00:23:51:10 - 00:23:52:13 But I want to

00:23:52:13 - 00:23:56:01 kind of mention one thing that I think is quite important for me actually.

00:23:56:09 - 00:23:59:19 Even though they fell through again,

00:23:59:22 - 00:24:01:22 I actually am kind of thankful to them

00:24:01:22 - 00:24:04:24 because I don't think that I would have gotten where I am

00:24:04:24 - 00:24:07:27 with the sellers if it hadn't been

00:24:07:27 - 00:24:12:00 if I didn't have a lender that was seriously looking at the deal

00:24:12:06 - 00:24:16:26 and to say, Look, I've got a lender, let's do the heads of terms, etc..

00:24:16:29 - 00:24:20:31 Now, you know, I now need to figure it out and etc..

00:24:20:31 - 00:24:25:22 But I think we we can find a solution. And

00:24:25:25 - 00:24:28:26 so, yeah, it's again, it's so interesting, like even

00:24:28:27 - 00:24:34:09 even things that kind of don't go your way sometimes are actually good, like

00:24:34:09 - 00:24:37:10 things that helped you in a different way than you maybe expected.

00:24:37:10 - 00:24:38:13 Yeah. Yeah.

00:24:38:13 - 00:24:42:06 I'd love to hear a bit more about You mentioned you went via a debt broker.

00:24:42:08 - 00:24:46:25 How have you found that experience?

00:24:46:28 - 00:24:47:21 let's go to that.

00:24:47:21 - 00:24:50:21 It's an episode of its own.

00:24:50:26 - 00:24:53:23 And in a nutshell,

00:24:53:23 - 00:24:57:22 I've had a lot of bad experiences with debt brokers in general.

00:24:57:22 - 00:24:58:33 I find them.

00:24:58:33 - 00:25:01:08 Sorry. Well, the ones that are listening.

00:25:01:08 - 00:25:07:17 But I find that a lot of them, I'm not very kind and I bet

00:25:07:20 - 00:25:11:06 a bit high on the sort of gatekeeper position

00:25:11:08 - 00:25:14:16 because people like me, we don't have the contacts.

00:25:14:16 - 00:25:15:32 We maybe don't even have

00:25:15:32 - 00:25:19:01 the financial knowledge, as some others might have, etc..

00:25:19:08 - 00:25:24:16 So and you sometimes really rely on someone like this

00:25:24:16 - 00:25:28:09 to, to, you know, open some doors and to make it happen.

00:25:28:12 - 00:25:30:08 Well, that's their purpose.

00:25:30:08 - 00:25:31:18 Yeah, that's their purpose. Yes.

00:25:31:18 - 00:25:36:15 But apparently, I mean, the business must be doing okay because like I say,

00:25:36:17 - 00:25:37:14 I've had

00:25:37:14 - 00:25:41:20 quite a few experiences where that were just simply unpleasant.

00:25:41:23 - 00:25:45:02 Just, just yesterday I had a conversation

00:25:45:02 - 00:25:49:30 that yeah, was was not, not, not particularly great,

00:25:49:33 - 00:25:53:32 but I found one person who found me this as well,

00:25:53:32 - 00:25:57:25 who who's been really,

00:25:57:27 - 00:25:58:21 really decent.

00:25:58:21 - 00:26:00:04 And we have a good relationship.

00:26:00:04 - 00:26:03:16 And even as this deal didn't work out,

00:26:03:21 - 00:26:06:19 there was something we had to sort of

00:26:06:19 - 00:26:09:02 a bit of a disagreement on.

00:26:09:02 - 00:26:13:29 But we found a way to to to, you know, get together again.

00:26:13:29 - 00:26:15:28 And that I really appreciate that.

00:26:15:28 - 00:26:17:19 I don't forget that kind of stuff.

00:26:17:19 - 00:26:21:15 Hanging in there with you is is definitely a test of merit, I would say.

00:26:21:17 - 00:26:22:30 Yeah. Yeah.

00:26:22:30 - 00:26:25:03 Now, of course, a lot of their fee is contingent on

00:26:25:03 - 00:26:27:25 you actually being able to, you know, secure the funds.

00:26:27:25 - 00:26:29:10 And so they should stay in there.

00:26:29:10 - 00:26:30:25 They're incentivized to.

00:26:30:25 - 00:26:34:05 But I've noticed there are, you know, a number of brokers

00:26:34:08 - 00:26:38:33 for commercial finance that charge a nice healthy fee upfront

00:26:39:02 - 00:26:42:05 and maybe are less concerned about the contingent part.

00:26:42:05 - 00:26:46:30 And they they normally in the wind at that moment when you really need them

00:26:46:30 - 00:26:52:11 and when one particular opportunity has fallen apart and need to go again.

00:26:52:14 - 00:26:53:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:53:04 - 00:26:55:29 No, exactly.

00:26:55:29 - 00:26:58:10 Well there's good money out there for good businesses

00:26:58:10 - 00:27:01:25 and I'm sure the one you've selected, if the margins are healthy

00:27:01:25 - 00:27:05:15 and it's got growth potential, there'll be, there'll be a deal to be done.

00:27:05:18 - 00:27:07:26 But can we talk a little bit about your sourcing strategy,

00:27:07:26 - 00:27:11:24 how you came by these businesses, given that your focus is on innovation

00:27:11:24 - 00:27:15:21 and digitization left in a bit more about the methods you found most

00:27:15:23 - 00:27:19:16 productive and effective for sourcing candidates?

00:27:19:19 - 00:27:20:33 Yeah.

00:27:20:33 - 00:27:24:00 So short answer.

00:27:24:00 - 00:27:28:15 It's brokers and which I don't think is ideal

00:27:28:18 - 00:27:31:15 for all the reasons that everyone knows.

00:27:31:15 - 00:27:33:24 You are in competition with other people.

00:27:33:24 - 00:27:36:32 They are usually more educated through the broker

00:27:36:32 - 00:27:40:06 and therefore prices can be a bit higher, etc. etc.

00:27:40:06 - 00:27:44:25 However, they also bring coding benefits,

00:27:44:25 - 00:27:48:26 which is they are educated about what the process might look like

00:27:48:28 - 00:27:53:21 and what is a realistic price and what may not be a realistic price.

00:27:53:21 - 00:27:57:12 What is a normal structure or an acceptable

00:27:57:12 - 00:28:00:17 structure versus what is not an acceptable structure?

00:28:00:25 - 00:28:04:05 Because when you, you know, contact people Coles,

00:28:04:09 - 00:28:07:05 they will all tell you that their business is worth ten X

00:28:07:05 - 00:28:11:23 and and they want all the money in a suitcase on their on their desk.

00:28:11:26 - 00:28:17:13 And, and so those conversations what is it like.

00:28:17:16 - 00:28:18:09 No no

00:28:18:09 - 00:28:21:28 I mean that is sometimes the expectation of some

00:28:21:28 - 00:28:26:09 some people that have not you know kind of and they get it

00:28:26:11 - 00:28:29:02 taken the time to to understand how it works.

00:28:29:02 - 00:28:32:20 But the brokers telling you what's normal and acceptable,

00:28:32:20 - 00:28:35:25 though, is that through the lens of what's normal and acceptable for their client

00:28:35:25 - 00:28:39:01 or for their fee, or is it what's normal and acceptable

00:28:39:08 - 00:28:43:10 in the market for people that are maybe less prepared?

00:28:43:13 - 00:28:46:09 I well, for me,

00:28:46:09 - 00:28:51:26 so the company brokers is a little bit similar.

00:28:51:27 - 00:28:54:30 There's many people that don't like company brokers

00:28:54:30 - 00:28:57:24 and that that don't have great things to say about them.

00:28:57:24 - 00:29:01:26 I have found a couple of companies that I'm very happy with,

00:29:01:26 - 00:29:05:20 and I know that actually those same names come up in the ones that others hate.

00:29:05:23 - 00:29:09:28 So I don't I don't know why, but but I have them

00:29:09:31 - 00:29:13:24 I've managed to to deal with these companies very well.

00:29:13:27 - 00:29:18:08 Of the three deals that I have been talking about in this in this podcast,

00:29:18:11 - 00:29:21:11 two of them come through the same broker company

00:29:21:13 - 00:29:27:23 and and one or was another one. But

00:29:27:25 - 00:29:30:20 yeah, so, so

00:29:30:20 - 00:29:34:22 I find that they are being reasonable.

00:29:34:25 - 00:29:36:20 Maybe I am making great offers.

00:29:36:20 - 00:29:41:19 I don't know the end, but I have found that they have been

00:29:41:25 - 00:29:46:05 a good help for me often certainly in the beginning to get sellers

00:29:46:13 - 00:29:52:16 to sort of accept my position and to make this back and forth

00:29:52:19 - 00:29:53:21 thing.

00:29:53:21 - 00:29:57:04 So so it's really good

00:29:57:07 - 00:30:00:07 that they're realistic and advocating for,

00:30:00:11 - 00:30:05:00 you know, both the buyer and the seller to find a an accommodation.

00:30:05:00 - 00:30:07:05 That's ultimately the brief. That's what they should be doing.

00:30:07:05 - 00:30:08:09 But yeah, it's up to you.

00:30:08:09 - 00:30:10:16 It's always about and I've been on the receiving end

00:30:10:16 - 00:30:14:10 of a few where it's, it's very much the other way.

00:30:14:12 - 00:30:17:28 And so I'm glad this balanced ones I've certainly worked with a number

00:30:17:28 - 00:30:22:13 that are really balanced and mature and practical and want to get a solution done.

00:30:22:13 - 00:30:27:21 And so yes, it's good that they're in your camp and the funding model.

00:30:27:21 - 00:30:31:02 Just remind me with with Hamper Ventures are you

00:30:31:05 - 00:30:34:02 did you set out to be self-funded or traditional search.

00:30:34:02 - 00:30:37:07 Yeah I self-funded

00:30:37:10 - 00:30:38:15 because I could

00:30:38:15 - 00:30:42:06 so you know then I feel like why not.

00:30:42:11 - 00:30:45:21 That being said, obviously, you know in the calculations it was more like,

00:30:45:21 - 00:30:48:23 Yeah, I'll take a year now, so I'll take two years.

00:30:48:31 - 00:30:52:16 So now I'm starting to sweat a little bit and I mean, you're

00:30:52:19 - 00:30:56:16 looking for equity, get funding in addition to the.

00:30:56:16 - 00:30:57:13 Yes I will.

00:30:57:13 - 00:31:01:26 So yeah, this I mean rough structure that I'm usually looking for

00:31:01:26 - 00:31:05:26 is the LBO plus some some equity.

00:31:05:29 - 00:31:12:19 And that has actually always worked quite well with sellers because it means that

00:31:12:19 - 00:31:18:02 they get money upfront and, and yeah, so you can defer some of it

00:31:18:05 - 00:31:21:27 but not too much and they kind of

00:31:21:29 - 00:31:23:10 like that. Yeah.

00:31:23:10 - 00:31:24:15 Yeah I agree.

00:31:24:15 - 00:31:30:14 And you've been quite open there about the challenges of

00:31:30:16 - 00:31:33:33 trying to raise finance for a B2C model.

00:31:34:02 - 00:31:37:15 What are the hurdles of you faced?

00:31:37:18 - 00:31:41:18 Perhaps you could talk a bit about maybe the financing environment, the lending

00:31:41:18 - 00:31:47:30 and equity investing environment that you've encountered on this journey?

00:31:47:33 - 00:31:50:33 Yeah, I mean, you know,

00:31:50:33 - 00:31:54:03 speaking about that story, about the lender dropping out, etc.,

00:31:54:03 - 00:31:59:18 and that is certainly the major hurdle I've I've had the fact that

00:31:59:23 - 00:32:04:26 and we were talking a little bit on our pre call about that as well, that

00:32:04:29 - 00:32:08:17 what I see really is that all the lenders want the same thing.

00:32:08:17 - 00:32:13:28 They want B2B businesses with recurring revenue contracted revenue

00:32:13:31 - 00:32:17:08 and and that's it really

00:32:17:10 - 00:32:22:18 kind of goes out of that lens and they're not so interested.

00:32:22:21 - 00:32:28:06 I actually by now I think there's a huge opportunity here

00:32:28:09 - 00:32:30:01 this is me thinking forward.

00:32:30:01 - 00:32:33:27 I'm already thinking like if I make a deal and I managed to make some money

00:32:33:27 - 00:32:38:06 on my deal, etc., I'm coming back and I'm going into that niche and

00:32:38:08 - 00:32:41:04 like offering some because then you can, you can pick

00:32:41:04 - 00:32:44:04 all the top deals in B2C.

00:32:44:09 - 00:32:44:22 You know,

00:32:44:22 - 00:32:48:10 you don't need to take the bad ones, but I've seen really great deals Now.

00:32:48:15 - 00:32:54:03 Yes, it is higher risk than a B2B business, but

00:32:54:06 - 00:32:57:04 but I just I that's how my mind works.

00:32:57:04 - 00:32:58:33 But I cannot accept that

00:32:58:33 - 00:33:03:16 that there's just like great businesses that won't be able to get sold

00:33:03:18 - 00:33:08:32 just because they like of what they sell or how their revenue model is.

00:33:08:33 - 00:33:09:23 Look at failure.

00:33:09:23 - 00:33:15:14 It's more evidence of the sort of barriers in general to SMB succession.

00:33:15:14 - 00:33:19:10 M&A is that there is a very narrow mold,

00:33:19:13 - 00:33:22:20 very narrow model that attracts all of the money.

00:33:22:23 - 00:33:26:14 And if you aren't in that, then your options are much more limited.

00:33:26:22 - 00:33:30:10 But, you know, it's the it's the fear and greed index.

00:33:30:13 - 00:33:33:22 Again, you know, the Warren Buffett kind of when everybody's fearful,

00:33:33:22 - 00:33:39:10 be greedy, it creates opportunities in that underserved part of the market.

00:33:39:13 - 00:33:42:14 Yes. So I can see your attraction to it.

00:33:42:16 - 00:33:42:24 Yeah.

00:33:42:24 - 00:33:43:16 Yeah.

00:33:43:16 - 00:33:47:02 And but yeah so so

00:33:47:04 - 00:33:50:00 I mean that that has really been

00:33:50:00 - 00:33:51:09 pretty frustrating.

00:33:51:09 - 00:33:55:17 And obviously then sometimes there's a disconnect with sellers understanding

00:33:55:17 - 00:33:59:02 that because these solutions, if the sellers understand

00:33:59:05 - 00:34:02:27 that it can't be financed not because of me, but like no one

00:34:02:27 - 00:34:07:32 will be able to finance their business and then they can be much more flexible.

00:34:08:05 - 00:34:12:02 But for that they must really understand that.

00:34:12:05 - 00:34:13:16 Yeah, and you take them on a journey.

00:34:13:16 - 00:34:14:19 I guess you have to.

00:34:14:19 - 00:34:18:14 It's a chastening experience of realizing that money doesn't

00:34:18:14 - 00:34:22:32 just rain from the sky and actually that, you know, that there isn't a

00:34:23:00 - 00:34:25:12 an optimal deal on offer for everybody.

00:34:25:12 - 00:34:28:04 So, yes, that's quite nice that you can

00:34:28:04 - 00:34:33:09 get them to come to a view whereby they need to bear some of the risk.

00:34:33:12 - 00:34:37:22 But in terms of how you've been perhaps trying to raise money by alternative

00:34:37:22 - 00:34:41:23 means, I mean, have you found speaking to equity investors, have you felt

00:34:41:23 - 00:34:46:11 the state of the market is in terms of availability of capital there?

00:34:46:14 - 00:34:46:25 Yeah.

00:34:46:25 - 00:34:50:07 So I'm currently talking to two investors.

00:34:50:16 - 00:34:51:02 Nothing.

00:34:51:02 - 00:34:56:01 I mean, some, some initial ones were were interested etc..

00:34:56:01 - 00:35:02:02 Again, I tried to make a, you know, an interesting deal for them

00:35:02:04 - 00:35:05:04 with preferred equity,

00:35:05:08 - 00:35:09:00 which again, I think that if I'm on the other side

00:35:09:00 - 00:35:14:30 at some point, this is just a great thing to do when I have noticed though is that

00:35:14:33 - 00:35:17:08 what seems to be happening is that on one hand

00:35:17:08 - 00:35:20:31 you have yeah, banks and sort of institutional lenders

00:35:21:00 - 00:35:24:30 and then you have PE, which kind of would maybe

00:35:24:30 - 00:35:29:25 talk to our market, but they tend to just do bigger deals

00:35:29:28 - 00:35:33:22 and and then you have small investors

00:35:33:22 - 00:35:36:22 or of see firms so angel than VCs

00:35:36:27 - 00:35:42:00 and but they all want startups and they and they don't want a business

00:35:42:00 - 00:35:46:16 that actually makes money and which is just mind blowing to me

00:35:46:16 - 00:35:50:22 there's like this whole and where where people don't want to put their money.

00:35:50:27 - 00:35:55:05 So what I'm trying to do to some extent is actually to contact angel investors

00:35:55:13 - 00:35:57:05 and try to explain to them,

00:35:57:05 - 00:36:01:05 Look, you are willing to put your money into these super risky things.

00:36:01:08 - 00:36:03:24 I'm offering you a business that works.

00:36:03:24 - 00:36:04:33 It exists.

00:36:04:33 - 00:36:07:30 And I'm you know, risk is so much lower

00:36:07:30 - 00:36:10:32 and I'm pretty much guaranteeing you a return.

00:36:11:04 - 00:36:14:21 So, you know, why don't you come on board?

00:36:14:24 - 00:36:16:03 But again, I feel like

00:36:16:03 - 00:36:20:20 there's such a market opportunity there for for us to make people understand

00:36:20:20 - 00:36:24:22 that there's a safe, safe, safer way of of investing.

00:36:24:31 - 00:36:28:06 Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more, Florian,

00:36:28:09 - 00:36:32:00 that we are at the the vanguard of a movement.

00:36:32:02 - 00:36:34:02 You know, I've said it numerous times before,

00:36:34:02 - 00:36:36:10 but I'll say it again for those listening for the first time

00:36:36:10 - 00:36:39:32 that you know, the smart money is already shifting from venture

00:36:40:06 - 00:36:45:17 where the returns have not delivered on their promise to the the established

00:36:45:17 - 00:36:50:07 buyout market, the microcap that we're in and we're serving.

00:36:50:09 - 00:36:53:25 And, you know, it's going to be like every movement, every asset

00:36:53:25 - 00:36:57:04 class, it's slow, slow and then everything all at once.

00:36:57:12 - 00:37:01:09 And that's when it will be, you know, boom time and saturation button, you know,

00:37:01:12 - 00:37:07:10 maybe a little bit too late if we don't encourage that transition of capital,

00:37:07:13 - 00:37:11:16 not because the sort of baby boomer opportunity is really at its high

00:37:11:16 - 00:37:15:12 point for the next decade and or slightly less.

00:37:15:12 - 00:37:18:33 So we hope that people move in number more quickly

00:37:18:33 - 00:37:24:02 and help, you know, projects like yours over the line.

00:37:24:05 - 00:37:24:25 Can we talk about this,

00:37:24:25 - 00:37:28:32 what things you've learned on your journey beyond the specific deal challenges?

00:37:28:32 - 00:37:34:13 What's been the steepest learning curve for you coming into this M&A world?

00:37:34:16 - 00:37:36:23 I mean, so much, so much

00:37:36:23 - 00:37:39:09 I don't even know if I can can

00:37:39:09 - 00:37:42:09 and that is exactly why I love that I'm doing this.

00:37:42:11 - 00:37:45:09 My wife regularly questions me and is like,

00:37:45:09 - 00:37:47:22 Do you like what are you doing in that room?

00:37:47:22 - 00:37:49:31 Like, you know, she sees me over a year now

00:37:49:31 - 00:37:53:17 locked up in here and kind of not being able to show for much.

00:37:53:20 - 00:37:56:24 And and and she's like, are you sure you want to do that?

00:37:56:24 - 00:38:01:22 And what I try to explain to her is that it's really

00:38:01:25 - 00:38:03:27 rewarding for me

00:38:03:27 - 00:38:05:04 to learn so much.

00:38:05:04 - 00:38:07:17 So that is the finance aspect that now suddenly

00:38:07:17 - 00:38:10:29 I've got a much better understanding of financially how businesses work.

00:38:11:01 - 00:38:12:18 But also the fact of you know,

00:38:12:18 - 00:38:16:10 all these systems and things that we learn, human things

00:38:16:18 - 00:38:20:02 of how to connect with sellers and therefore how to connect with people

00:38:20:10 - 00:38:23:03 and make them trust you enough that

00:38:23:03 - 00:38:26:13 that that they will give you their life's work.

00:38:26:16 - 00:38:28:07 You don't give

00:38:28:10 - 00:38:28:31 but but

00:38:28:31 - 00:38:32:30 trust you enough to you know, they make that decision with one person.

00:38:33:03 - 00:38:34:23 No, not with a lot.

00:38:34:23 - 00:38:36:00 And you need to be that person.

00:38:36:00 - 00:38:42:03 And so I find that really super interesting and very, very rewarding.

00:38:42:10 - 00:38:47:12 Aside from obviously the business aspect, which I always love to think about,

00:38:47:15 - 00:38:49:00 you know, what could we do with this business?

00:38:49:00 - 00:38:50:32 What could we do with that business now?

00:38:50:32 - 00:38:52:05 But again, it's great traits

00:38:52:05 - 00:38:55:20 for entrepreneurism that you are excited by stepping out adjacent

00:38:55:20 - 00:38:58:20 to your comfort zone and expanding your knowledge and encountering

00:38:58:20 - 00:39:01:22 new challenges and rising to new opportunities.

00:39:01:22 - 00:39:08:31 So that's great and I can certainly appreciate that.

00:39:09:00 - 00:39:10:09 If you were to reflect

00:39:10:09 - 00:39:14:32 on your journey to date from that moment that you initially

00:39:14:32 - 00:39:18:31 had to make the decision to start becoming a searcher

00:39:19:00 - 00:39:20:26 and then navigating

00:39:20:26 - 00:39:24:17 the sort of lending hurdles and the failed deals,

00:39:24:19 - 00:39:27:17 what would you do differently if you were starting over armed with that knowledge?

00:39:27:17 - 00:39:33:07 What would you tell your your 15 month ago self now?

00:39:33:10 - 00:39:36:33 You know, but it's always kind of

00:39:36:33 - 00:39:41:01 tempting to look back and say, like, I should I should have gone faster.

00:39:41:03 - 00:39:45:03 I think that's one of the things that I just always feel like,

00:39:45:06 - 00:39:45:24 all of that.

00:39:45:24 - 00:39:49:31 I just need to make things happen quicker.

00:39:49:33 - 00:39:53:21 But as I was saying earlier, it's also a little bit like who I am.

00:39:53:21 - 00:39:56:17 I just go the speed I go.

00:39:56:17 - 00:39:58:22 But it's true that I am a person.

00:39:58:22 - 00:40:02:20 I need to like, keep myself, like give myself deadlines too,

00:40:02:23 - 00:40:05:00 so that things move, move ahead.

00:40:05:00 - 00:40:07:23 So that is really one of the major things.

00:40:07:23 - 00:40:10:30 And and you do control speed to some extent.

00:40:11:02 - 00:40:13:07 Now it's a balance, especially with sellers.

00:40:13:07 - 00:40:16:15 You don't want to be like pushing them when they're not ready to answer,

00:40:16:15 - 00:40:19:11 like just chase them. That's not going to work.

00:40:19:11 - 00:40:20:18 And so it's a balance.

00:40:20:18 - 00:40:24:33 But I guess that's the real art itself is being able to keep the deal

00:40:25:00 - 00:40:29:24 going as fast as it as it can without breaking it, you know?

00:40:29:27 - 00:40:30:20 Yeah, exactly right.

00:40:30:20 - 00:40:34:02 And is that similar to the sort of advice you would give to others?

00:40:34:02 - 00:40:36:05 I mean, if you were

00:40:36:05 - 00:40:39:00 advising people that was setting out for the first time,

00:40:39:00 - 00:40:43:21 I'm particularly intrigued because in out preamble, you that the

00:40:43:24 - 00:40:46:04 the process of searching was more mentally

00:40:46:04 - 00:40:49:11 taxing than you had thought it would be when you set out.

00:40:49:14 - 00:40:54:10 So I'm interested in your methods for coping with that and for resilience

00:40:54:10 - 00:40:59:10 and maybe what you could give us advice to others about, you know,

00:40:59:13 - 00:41:00:31 treading on those inevitable landmines

00:41:00:31 - 00:41:03:31 and how to cope with them.

00:41:03:31 - 00:41:05:30 And I mean, I think

00:41:05:30 - 00:41:09:14 the first thing that I want to tell people is that they can do it.

00:41:09:16 - 00:41:13:27 And on the other hand, I also always say, like, be aware of what

00:41:14:00 - 00:41:17:22 what you can and what you can't do, or rather, what are you good at?

00:41:17:25 - 00:41:21:16 Obviously, there's a lot of people selling things in this market and they now

00:41:21:16 - 00:41:25:32 tell everyone that they can all do it and they don't need any money. And

00:41:26:00 - 00:41:27:17 I think you need to be careful with that.

00:41:27:17 - 00:41:32:07 I think you need to really sit down and think, who am I may able to do this, etc..

00:41:32:07 - 00:41:37:12 If you're someone who is good at taking direction and executing

00:41:37:20 - 00:41:40:12 and all of that, maybe this is not the best thing

00:41:40:12 - 00:41:45:00 and you don't need to like not everyone needs to be doing the same thing.

00:41:45:03 - 00:41:48:14 But if if you do think that you can lead a business,

00:41:48:14 - 00:41:51:31 if you have got some business acumen and you understand that,

00:41:52:02 - 00:41:56:07 I think that then it's very possible for people to do this

00:41:56:07 - 00:41:59:12 and there's many different ways of doing it.

00:41:59:18 - 00:42:01:28 I also

00:42:01:28 - 00:42:05:08 am standing on the shoulders of people that have done that before me

00:42:05:08 - 00:42:09:33 and that have been kind enough to talk to me to to just give me

00:42:09:33 - 00:42:13:30 the impression that I can do that, that it's not

00:42:13:32 - 00:42:17:07 sort of out outside of my

00:42:17:09 - 00:42:18:14 my realm.

00:42:18:14 - 00:42:21:33 And there still is people that try to make you that.

00:42:22:03 - 00:42:24:31 But if you are having enough conversations,

00:42:24:31 - 00:42:29:00 then you notice that there's much more that are actually completely comfortable

00:42:29:00 - 00:42:29:25 with you doing it.

00:42:29:25 - 00:42:31:15 And they are not.

00:42:31:15 - 00:42:33:16 So you know that that broke as well.

00:42:33:16 - 00:42:34:31 Examples of a love

00:42:34:31 - 00:42:38:04 to make you feel like you have no idea what you're talking about.

00:42:38:06 - 00:42:41:14 And and that's I think it's a shame.

00:42:41:17 - 00:42:46:07 Again, I don't know what the strategy is there, but

00:42:46:10 - 00:42:49:21 but I've had so many people that

00:42:49:24 - 00:42:52:17 often were like me just a couple of years before,

00:42:52:17 - 00:42:57:13 and they are now helping helping people like me to to just go through the stuff.

00:42:57:15 - 00:43:02:09 That's something I really love, but I must say that both British

00:43:02:09 - 00:43:08:01 and Americans as well, to an extent, just culturally, are so much more open

00:43:08:03 - 00:43:12:20 to people like me trying new things and they will help.

00:43:12:22 - 00:43:14:16 And as a general rule.

00:43:14:16 - 00:43:18:26 So so that's a shout out to to the Anglo-Saxon world.

00:43:18:29 - 00:43:20:27 thanks. Thanks. Thanks for that.

00:43:20:27 - 00:43:23:32 We haven't made our lives easy in the most recent decade,

00:43:23:32 - 00:43:26:30 so I think we've invited a little criticism, but

00:43:26:30 - 00:43:29:29 nice to know that we're doing something right with them.

00:43:29:29 - 00:43:31:12 Openness and supportive ness.

00:43:31:12 - 00:43:34:00 But no, specifically, that's quite nucleated in this community.

00:43:34:00 - 00:43:37:33 I think the search and acquisition entrepreneurship community

00:43:38:05 - 00:43:40:07 is very collaborative, very supportive.

00:43:40:07 - 00:43:41:14 There's there's lots of people there

00:43:41:14 - 00:43:44:30 who have done it and made it that want to help others.

00:43:44:30 - 00:43:48:25 And, you know, I always say, you know, true leaders make new leaders.

00:43:48:25 - 00:43:51:22 You know, they go and reach down and, you know, pick people up.

00:43:51:22 - 00:43:53:15 And I think that's a great quality

00:43:53:15 - 00:43:56:15 that these are using in the businesses that they that they acquire, but

00:43:56:15 - 00:44:01:10 also they're using it in the community to, you know, to help that next generation.

00:44:01:13 - 00:44:03:25 So, yeah, that gets me out of bed in the morning.

00:44:03:25 - 00:44:05:04 I really enjoy that.

00:44:05:04 - 00:44:10:02 So if we were to fast forward 12 months, what does have adventures look like?

00:44:10:03 - 00:44:12:26 Where would you like to be?

00:44:12:29 - 00:44:13:10 Yeah, and

00:44:13:10 - 00:44:16:16 obviously I would like to have a closed

00:44:16:16 - 00:44:20:33 deal and, and, and hopefully have made some, some progress

00:44:20:33 - 00:44:24:07 within that company of you know, having a good growth

00:44:24:10 - 00:44:27:22 trajectory there.

00:44:27:24 - 00:44:28:02 Yeah.

00:44:28:02 - 00:44:29:32 That's, that's, that's the goal And,

00:44:29:32 - 00:44:33:20 and I'm still confident that that that will happen.

00:44:33:28 - 00:44:38:01 So yes it was like the stars are gradually starting to align for you.

00:44:38:01 - 00:44:43:07 So I hope that we can have another session once you've got your feet

00:44:43:07 - 00:44:48:31 under the table at the acquired company and yeah, we can then

00:44:49:00 - 00:44:52:29 see how the first 3 to 6 months have gone for you

00:44:52:31 - 00:44:56:19 in the big chair.

00:44:56:22 - 00:45:00:03 I think you have a specific message or a few different specific messages

00:45:00:03 - 00:45:03:32 for the different groups of users and listeners within our community.

00:45:03:32 - 00:45:08:30 So, you know, entrepreneurs, lenders, family offices, business owners,

00:45:08:30 - 00:45:09:13 I imagine.

00:45:09:13 - 00:45:13:16 So do you have any particular, you know, rallying calls that you'd like

00:45:13:19 - 00:45:15:08 to use this moment for?

00:45:15:08 - 00:45:19:13 And so I think

00:45:19:16 - 00:45:20:30 then,

00:45:20:30 - 00:45:25:09 yeah, so there's a couple of different things I think for for Etsy entrepreneurs.

00:45:25:12 - 00:45:28:04 Well, one of the main things that I want to tell people

00:45:28:04 - 00:45:31:16 other than you can do it is the story thing.

00:45:31:16 - 00:45:33:05 I always talk about your story.

00:45:33:05 - 00:45:36:17 In my case, it's my one big thing

00:45:36:17 - 00:45:41:06 is this Apple past and then entrepreneurial.

00:45:41:15 - 00:45:44:15 And I've managed to craft that and,

00:45:44:16 - 00:45:47:18 you know, communicate it well that it resonates with people.

00:45:47:18 - 00:45:51:14 But I believe everyone has a story and I think you really need to sit down

00:45:51:14 - 00:45:55:22 and and crossed it and change it and sort of find your thing

00:45:55:29 - 00:45:59:27 because that has been what has given me the most confidence actually, is that

00:45:59:30 - 00:46:04:02 when I was going out in the beginning, I knew kind of what I was saying

00:46:04:07 - 00:46:08:21 and I could see that people were were work, you know reacting well to it.

00:46:08:21 - 00:46:12:13 So I think it's very powerful to to work on your story.

00:46:12:13 - 00:46:16:07 And that can be just a few lines. By the way.

00:46:16:10 - 00:46:19:07 And the other thing, obviously, I spoke about lending.

00:46:19:07 - 00:46:21:25 So if anyone listens,

00:46:21:25 - 00:46:25:28 you know that that is a lender in one shape or another,

00:46:25:28 - 00:46:29:21 maybe a family office or or any

00:46:29:21 - 00:46:32:21 any other forms that I might not know of.

00:46:32:27 - 00:46:36:31 And I obviously always interested

00:46:36:31 - 00:46:42:06 in talking to people that can can lend money for acquisitions.

00:46:42:09 - 00:46:44:22 And I also believe, as I said, that

00:46:44:22 - 00:46:48:01 there's a huge opportunity for you, not just with me, but with so many others.

00:46:48:01 - 00:46:51:31 So so I think I'm, you know, go and make it happen.

00:46:51:31 - 00:46:54:12 And I guess one last thing.

00:46:54:12 - 00:46:58:15 I don't know how many business owners listen to this, but I'm also always,

00:46:58:18 - 00:47:02:24 always happy to talk to business owners about the business, about,

00:47:02:27 - 00:47:07:12 you know, growth and innovation and how we can make things happen.

00:47:07:15 - 00:47:10:14 So I'm very happy to to jump on a call as well.

00:47:10:14 - 00:47:11:20 That sounds like valuable time

00:47:11:20 - 00:47:13:04 spent with you actually flourishing regardless

00:47:13:04 - 00:47:15:19 whether they were ready to sell their businesses. Yet.

00:47:15:19 - 00:47:20:06 I think, you know, getting your insights on products and process improvement

00:47:20:06 - 00:47:24:11 could be quite a game changer for them and and you know lead to good things

00:47:24:13 - 00:47:28:23 Really interesting your power of story piece there and

00:47:28:26 - 00:47:32:06 yeah I think it's really sage advice to crystallize

00:47:32:06 - 00:47:35:33 a kind of elevator pitch or narrative about yourself that you can convey.

00:47:36:02 - 00:47:39:33 Well it really hit them with, you know, your origin story.

00:47:40:02 - 00:47:43:02 I think that is very, very powerful.

00:47:43:07 - 00:47:45:08 And it seems like you spent some good time.

00:47:45:08 - 00:47:45:14 I mean,

00:47:45:14 - 00:47:48:19 you've got a great story in Providence and Heritage that you've come from anyway.

00:47:48:19 - 00:47:53:03 So it's your problem is more which best you leave out.

00:47:53:05 - 00:47:55:12 Yeah.

00:47:55:12 - 00:47:58:09 Again, I do think that everyone has

00:47:58:09 - 00:48:00:20 has something they can they can tell

00:48:00:20 - 00:48:05:20 and that might also then define, you know, who you can talk to properly,

00:48:05:20 - 00:48:09:11 but maybe that's helpful instead of talking to everyone.

00:48:09:11 - 00:48:10:09 So yeah, true.

00:48:10:09 - 00:48:13:22 Narrowing down, finding your tribe with whom it will resonate.

00:48:13:25 - 00:48:14:01 Exactly.

00:48:14:01 - 00:48:17:25 So just before we wrap up, Florian, it's been fantastic, by the way,

00:48:17:25 - 00:48:20:25 and thanks so much for your, you know, your candor

00:48:20:31 - 00:48:23:13 for listeners who want to follow your journey or,

00:48:23:13 - 00:48:26:21 learn more about Hamburg Ventures or connected you directly.

00:48:26:21 - 00:48:29:24 Where can they find you online or otherwise?

00:48:29:27 - 00:48:31:25 Yes, I'm on LinkedIn.

00:48:31:25 - 00:48:33:18 My name is Florian Welsh.

00:48:33:18 - 00:48:37:02 It's w i l i c Hage.

00:48:37:05 - 00:48:37:24 Yeah.

00:48:37:24 - 00:48:41:20 Easy to find on LinkedIn and Hamburg Ventures dot com as well.

00:48:41:21 - 00:48:42:28 But I mean,

00:48:42:28 - 00:48:48:30 you know that's a bit of a tiny website so yeah, reach out send me a message.

00:48:48:30 - 00:48:53:04 If, if you want a chat doobie, do be respectful of Laurean's time.

00:48:53:04 - 00:48:54:08 Go with an ask.

00:48:54:08 - 00:48:57:15 But yeah as you can tell, he brings a lot of insight.

00:48:57:15 - 00:49:00:14 So I'm sure it's time well spent.

00:49:00:14 - 00:49:03:17 Well, thank you so much for sharing those insights with us today, Florian.

00:49:03:17 - 00:49:06:32 And it's been really wonderful hearing about your experiences

00:49:07:06 - 00:49:10:29 navigating the complexities of challenges of of search

00:49:10:29 - 00:49:14:23 and how that brought you to hopefully this deal that comes across the line

00:49:14:26 - 00:49:16:30 with the right lender in tow.

00:49:16:30 - 00:49:20:11 We wish you the absolute best of success with the future of Hamburg Ventures

00:49:20:11 - 00:49:23:30 and we will hold you to the promise you've made to come back and help

00:49:23:30 - 00:49:29:23 find alternative funding for the FT's Z acquisitions that will happen behind you.

00:49:29:23 - 00:49:32:31 So we we hope to follow your progress

00:49:32:31 - 00:49:36:15 and get you back to talk about your deals again in the future.

00:49:36:17 - 00:49:39:18 To our listeners, of course, thank you so much for tuning into the M&A.

00:49:39:18 - 00:49:39:30 Amazing.

00:49:39:30 - 00:49:43:10 We look forward to bringing you further interviews in the weeks ahead.

00:49:43:13 - 00:49:46:20 But until next time, keep on crunching.

00:49:46:23 - 00:49:47:05 Thank you.