Transcript: Talking about Leadership Part 2

00:00:06 Emma Abbott, CFG A very warm welcome back to the CFG talking about Leadership podcast in the first episode we looked at what leadership is and the importance of diversity in leadership. In this episode, we're going to dig a bit deeper into leadership from the finance function. 00:00:20 Emma Abbott, CFG Looking at why finance professionals make great leaders and we welcome back Judith Miller and Maggie Smith, Hello to those of you. Now my first question is you've both worked in the finance sector alongside charities and nonprofits for some years. 00:00:31 Emma Abbott, CFG The Judith what is it about finance professionals that make great leaders? 00:00:35 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Thanks, Emma. I think it's a really interesting question, isn't it? And we had a recruitment day at Sayer Vincent yesterday and I always welcome the candidates to the firm and to the day. And one of the things that I do talk about when we start the day is I I always think, you know, we train chartered accounts and it's a fantastic. 00:00:56 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Grounding and I don't think of it as. 00:01:00 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent An accountancy qualification, I think of it as a business qualification and you can get under the bonnet effectively of how any organisation works, but just going back to the the introduction that I always make to the candidates who are always delighted to see is that it's as much a set of technical skills that you're learning. 00:01:21 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent As a set of people skills that you're learning and. 00:01:24 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent And how you engage people in the numbers and I think the qualification is evolving to make sure that it does that, but it does have to have those two bits to it. We're not being counters in that in that old fashioned sense. And I think that the key thing that people who work in the finance arena bring. 00:01:47 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Are and I'm gonna use an expression that Kate Morris, who is an IFL (Inspiring Financial Leadership) alumni and works in the sector. She came and did one of our guest speaker slots some time ago now and. 00:01:58 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent She used this expression that of course finance people within an organisation and auditors too. I'm an auditor. You sort of have an access all areas pass and you get to look under the skin of every aspect of how the organisation is working and you have a deep understanding of what. 00:02:19 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent The leavers are to achieve financial success and obviously it's all about, you know, how do we allocate resources to have the maximum impact. And it's that understanding that you as a finance professional develop in terms of understanding the whole organisation. 00:02:34 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent And you know, and this is why we see so many people with accountancy qualifications as CEOs in organisations, I think that would be my starting point of what the finance professional has to offer within an organisation. 00:02:47 Emma Abbott, CFG Thanks Judith. That's really insightful. What's the response to that when those younger, well, those professionals who come to you and perhaps setting out. 00:02:54 Emma Abbott, CFG Their stages of their career and you tell them it's not just about the technical skills, actually you're here for a lot more than that. What? What's the response. 00:03:02 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent You find normally. 00:03:03 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent I think I think some of them walking through the door get it. I do think that there is a perception that it's about spreadsheets at number. 00:03:12 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Crunching. And I do wonder, that's whether that's more than non accountant thinking about that than the accountant. I think maybe for those who haven't thought about it, I think it it presents quite an exciting opportunity actually you know this isn't just an aspect of how a business or a not-for-profit functions. 00:03:33 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent It's it's how it functions just generally, but I think there's one thing about, you know, learning your stuff within a charity. 00:03:42 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Is that you know you've got this dual bottom line. You've gotta make the numbers work. You might be not-for-profit, but you're also not for loss. The numbers have got to work, but you're delivering this impact, this social value. You know you're delivering alongside your charitable objective. So it's actually it's more challenging than dividends to your shareholders as far as I'm concerned. 00:04:02 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent And so I think that requirement to focus on the impact that your charity is having that makes you as a finance professional need to engage much more broadly in, in what the organisation is doing. So I think it's it, it, it's more challenging for sure, but it it's much more rewarding and interest. 00:04:20 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Think I think. 00:04:21 Emma Abbott, CFG Absolutely, Maggie. As you're listening to what you just saying about those people who are coming into the profession and in particular charity, obviously, charity finance, you've worked with people, perhaps, who are slightly further on in their careers. What do you notice, if anything? And I hate to. 00:04:34 Emma Abbott, CFG Generalise. But why? 00:04:36 Emma Abbott, CFG What gives them the advantage? So Judith, it's that holistic view, those business skills, but. 00:04:41 Emma Abbott, CFG So do you see anything? 00:04:43 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School No, I'm not sure. I do see anything completely different. I think that that is absolutely the stand out and I think it's under appreciated not only by more genius stuff where I think it it is underappreciated. It's that you don't know that what you've got is different from other people necessarily. So I think probably some finance colleagues can take it for granted because they don't realise that they've got. 00:05:05 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Privileged information, really, that not everybody does and allows them to see the organisation as a whole rather than in their silo, which can can very easily. 00:05:15 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Happen in terms of senior level, it probably isn't as different as we might imagine. Again, not across the board, but certainly somebody asked me this yesterday actually about leadership, about the good leaders who don't accept that who haven't thought about themselves as leaders. And I think it probably rings true for finance people as well, not only. 00:05:36 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School That moment of it's OK to call yourself a leader because you are. It's you shouldn't be embarrassed about that, but also that you've got that unique viewpoint across the piece that really probably only the chief exec has as well depends on the culture, depends on individuals. Of course it does. But I think we underestimate the value of that. 00:05:57 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Perhaps and certainly when I think of when you know before I was doing this work when I worked in a charity myself. So for nine years and had three different finance CFO's in that time and the one absolutely who changed my working life was the one who didn't treat me like an idiot because there wasn't an accountant. 00:06:18 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School And I also remember one of our speakers, Paula, lead from water aid using the phrase. It's not my data, it's your data. I just. 00:06:26 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Hold it. They're not my numbers and he very much took that approach. He came and sat alongside me when it was time for either budgeting or forecasting or any of any of those things that you need people to provide you the information. And they don't know what what you want. And it made such a world of difference cause he helped me understand how it fits in and also in turn. 00:06:47 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School That helped me. Then interpret what he was providing so that it just joined it up so much more that sitting alongside and so not only I think leadership and expertise in the finance function. 00:07:00 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School And we talk about leadership from the finance function and what that means is going and either really or metaphorically sitting alongside colleagues to broaden understanding from both sides and to to bust some of those perceptions and misperceptions that otherwise really take root. 00:07:18 Emma Abbott, CFG Maggie, I think your story shows the importance of those who make numbers relevant and bring them to life and how important that is across organisms. 00:07:26 Emma Abbott, CFG Questions and we spoke about humility and curiosity in the first episode of this podcast, and it sounds like your colleague had plenty of that. So my next question really was prompted by a good friend and colleague of ours, Simon Hopkins, who mentioned to me a few weeks ago that finance professionals tend to be more on the introverted side and as a result, perhaps don't see themselves as natural leaders. 00:07:47 Emma Abbott, CFG Or perhaps struggle to make that transition into the more leadership roles. Has that been your experience, or is that a bit of a myth and a slower question? If a finance professional is stepping into a leadership role for the first time, what can they do to build their confidence and perhaps conquer some of that imposter syndrome that we hear so much about? Judith. What are your thoughts? 00:08:06 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent That's an interesting one. I'll let Maggie talk about her imposter syndrome. That's one of her particular interests. I think it's quite easy to sort of generalise and label people as introverts. I think, and most of us are probably a mixture anyway, and you might be an introvert, but you find the energy somewhere to actually. 00:08:26 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Put your extrovert face or hat on. I I think when you need to. So I'm not sure I necessarily think in in that way. I might have done quite a few years ago, but I try and avoid labelling people. I I think these days. 00:08:42 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent I mean maybe we are bit more introverted, maybe in terms of you know where we get our energy and how we think and you know it may well be that because of some of the analysis and that type of thing that we we need to do, we might appear more introverted but no I'm not I think I've got. 00:09:02 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Past thinking in that way, I'd be interested to hear what Maggie like to contribute really on the on the imposter syndrome thing. And I, you know, I think we've probably all had it, haven't we? I don't think it's. It's not just within the finance profession. 00:09:19 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Yeah, 70% of people reported with Imposter syndrome. And of that of that study as well 70% women, 50% men. So there's that expression. As everyone got a touch of it, but I don't think everyone has, but it's more prevalent than we might think. And it's possibly more, I don't know if it's more prevalent or not amongst introverts. 00:09:39 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Because they keep it to themselves, of course, which is also the problem with this sort of research and data is the extroverts take part more. So we tend to hear more from them. 00:09:49 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School I think just from the programmes down through the years when we anecdotally talk about introversion or extroversion, it tends to be something the participants bring rather than us, and there's a feeling that there, there are perhaps more introverts in the room when it's a a room full of finance people, but not to the extreme and just use it really as a way of exploring. 00:10:09 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Difference back to what we talked about in the first episode really. If that's staying curious and what a gift it is to think of. OK, so I'm more I think in my head and then I speak how do I communicate with someone who thinks out loud? 00:10:24 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Or, you know, I think in a very linear way, how do I communicate with someone who doesn't do that or for them, what's important is the feeling stuff. And then they get to the thinking stuff. So all of all of this is useful in terms of what we talked about last time, really, the smoothing, the way with leadership and easing those working relationships. So it's. 00:10:46 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School It's interesting and it can be. 00:10:48 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Even, but certainly I I get asked from time to time can introverts be leaders? Yes, absolutely. Of course they can and and are and have been ever since anyone started doing studies on leadership, not to ignore the bits that we could be doing better, but really focus on the strengths that that bring. And I think the strengths particularly do align happily with what we hope to get from a finance leader. 00:11:10 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School You know that that very reflective style, the fact that when they share something they've thought about it already, it tends to be clear that's that's hugely valuable. And I think building on what Judith said, really anyone who has either being tripped by their imposter. 00:11:27 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Which, by the way, I love this phrase. Imposter syndrome takes root despite evidence to the contrary, so it doesn't matter that on a good day we know it's not true. It still gets in our way, and I think the best way past that, and indeed as an introvert working in an extrovert working world. 00:11:47 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Is to focus on the work back to what we were saying about that nice finance professional who I'd worked with. 00:11:53 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School For it was because we were both focused on the work and that, you know, we've we can think of countless examples. I'm sure when we come to that, of getting outside of our comfort zone because the work is too important not to. So that would be my top tip is don't worry about how you're feeling about it. Focus on what you're doing. 00:12:12 Emma Abbott, CFG That's really good advice, Maggie. Step out of your own way and focus on the work. I really like that. It sounds so simple when you put it like that. I don't know how easy it is in practise, but certainly that's great advice. Obviously. Good communication skills are extremely important to master in any role. And I know that's part of the inspiring financial leadership. 00:12:29 Emma Abbott, CFG Calls to Judith. What are the skills that you look for during your recruitment events? 00:12:34 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent It's all about sitting alongside people and I think it's about being curious. I think that the ability to listen is are grossly, grossly underestimated or under considered skill. I think it's rightly important that you look for somebody whose business partnering and going at a sit alongside somebody, because we all know that. 00:12:55 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Finance is not everybody's cup of tea, you. 00:12:57 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent You know, there's there's gonna be a mental block in there potentially. So it's that it's that example that Maggie used about how you, how do you actually relate those finance tasks to where that person is? How can you engage them? And it's not about, it's not about dumbing it down or anything like that. It's about listening, understanding where that non finance. 00:13:17 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Person is coming from and engaging with them in their in their place, and I think it's also about having that appreciation and understanding that I don't know, I may be going a bit off piece here. I don't know Emma, but it's about saying it's not what I as a financial professional or can produce or the system can. 00:13:36 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Use. It's what the you you know it's. It's as, as Maggie said, it's other people's data. How can I present it in a way that's gonna help and support them? 00:13:45 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent So I think this curiosity, compassion and empathy about where others find themselves is a really important quality in a finance professional, and I would try and take a lot of the technical things for granted, but that that recognition of engagement with people and how you communicate, that's the thing. 00:14:05 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent That lifts a great bean counter into somebody who can have business impact. 00:14:11 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent And the other things you you talked about, you know, what might you look for not just in an individual but in a team. I think you know, we often see this as auditors. You go in and there's a finance team, but actually it's a group of people who are working together on the numbers. And it's really interesting. 00:14:32 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Auditors will often ask questions and there's people who say, well, you need to talk to so and so about that or. 00:14:37 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent So you know. 00:14:38 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent And the importance of building a great finance team. 00:14:41 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Is that actually everybody in the finance team needs to understand all of it. They might not be doing all of it, but as we all know, you know, it's double entry bookkeeping. You put a debit in here and the credits gonna hit somewhere else. So you gotta wait to stand the implications of of what I'm called. You know, the other side of the entry. And that's so important for people in that you need to build a genuine. 00:15:02 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Team. So sorry, that was a bit of a jumble of thoughts. 00:15:06 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent But it's that being a partner, listening, communicating and understanding the wider peace right from the get go. 00:15:14 Emma Abbott, CFG Thanks Judith. I I can really feel your passion when you talk about this, which is absolutely great. Maggie, have you got any thoughts on? 00:15:20 Emma Abbott, CFG That as well. 00:15:21 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Yeah. Obviously, obviously I'm going to agree with you that again, we keep, we keep doing. This is why we've worked together so long. We do challenge each other as well by the way that you know that you mentioned their compassion, Judith, and that what it was called Mark, the finance person who I keep talking about that was what he had. 00:15:40 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School For me, at no point did he shame me, which I think non finance people often feel shamed. And oddly, I was really good at a level maths. But as a grown up it's I seem to get number blind and he and he. Yeah. He just sat with that and and you mentioned Simon Hopkins before the. 00:16:00 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School The finance journey that he created. 00:16:03 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School We see the finance people on FL eyes lighter when they're presented with it as a a useful framework to think about how they communicate with all these people who aren't number people. As a non finance person, what's a relief to see? You know, it's not just for finance people. Actually it applies for everybody, but. 00:16:23 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School What's the useful communication tool for organisational life generally? 00:16:28 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Yeah. And I think I think the other thing that that I would add just talking about talking about Simon, he, he, he he comes along to the NFL course and talks about the finance journey and. 00:16:41 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent One of the expressions that he uses is from from that Disney film or Pixar film, Monster Inc, and he uses the expression we we we scare because we care, which is a particular favourite of mine, you know, and it it's it's about how do you balance, you know, communicating the reality of the financial situation, which can be unbelievably. 00:17:03 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Challenging but. 00:17:05 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent It's it's doing that in a way where you have an understanding of the impact of the of the words that you're you're going to share and you can do it in a way where the important message is land, but you do it in a compassionate way and also you, you understand the likely reaction and you've got, you've got a response to that as well. 00:17:24 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent You know, and This is why, on the IFL course we talk about, you know, the Kubler, Ross, the grief curve, which is the change curve and it's. 00:17:32 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent You know, you're as a finance professional, could you could be further on on the on the curve than than other people. So it's understanding the impact of what of what you're sharing the words of the finance professional in an organisation have a lot of weight and you've got to be mindful of of that. 00:17:49 Emma Abbott, CFG I think that's a really important takeaway, Judith. Thank you. And actually talking about anticipation there, you've actually anticipated my next question. 00:17:56 Emma Abbott, CFG Which is what can finance professionals who are aspiring to leadership roles do to actually get there. What the skills that they should hone. 00:18:03 Emma Abbott, CFG Maggie, can I come to you now? 00:18:05 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Obviously there's AFL. I'm going to say that, aren't I? 00:18:09 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School A big part of the programme, though, is that peer network and whether you do it on AFL or any other programme or community, you know, CFG's a huge membership organisation with lots of events where you can go and meet people. 00:18:23 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Who? 00:18:24 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Absolutely talk your language and have the same challenges and understand. 00:18:29 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School You know, understand things that only you can. 00:18:32 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School What I've experienced in the past for myself and for others is when you're the expert in an organisation, the more senior you get, the more you have to talk to people outside of your organisation. For your for your stuff, for your your your professional conversations, for your peer support for all of that. And it's not unusual as as people. 00:18:52 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School More senior that they they their support comes from out as much as in. So I'd say that and and again, Simon Hopkins says doesn't he find your tribe? Find who you're gonna travel with. Don't try and do it alone. You don't. 00:19:04 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School And to and it's not helpful to. It's good to to think out loud, to bounce things off other people to get topped up with ideas or questions or anything, really. That's thought provoking. Know what works for you and and go find it that practical. So what element of leadership comes through in conversations? 00:19:25 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School When you're talking about what's it like in real life, you can borrow from other people you might not copy exactly, which you can of course. 00:19:32 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School But you can think about how might that work where we are or how might that work for me, we we need those conversations with others to get there. And one of the things that people report on all leadership programmes to be fair is that that sense of gaining confidence around the people stuff which we, you know it doesn't solve imposter syndrome. 00:19:53 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School And it's not going to make introverts extroverted, but it it helps with that, expanding the comfort zone. 00:19:59 Emma Abbott, CFG Thanks, Maggie. Yes, you mentioned Simon again and obviously the finance journey is integral and integral part of the inspiring financial leadership course. 00:20:08 Emma Abbott, CFG And it's really interesting that you say that non finance professionals also benefit from that. I wondering can you just tell us a bit more? 00:20:15 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School About that, please. Some colleagues do come do hunt as a pack on IFL, so we do get people come along who aren't finance people, but they've decided it's a good idea to do it alongside their colleague. And what we sometimes. 00:20:27 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School As well as the sister programme, outstanding leadership for non finance people. 00:20:32 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School They run in parallel and and some some people travel with their work colleagues on on the either the same programme or the partner programme, so they're getting that shared language that they could. It's just helping that put it into practise. When you've got someone with you. 00:20:48 Emma Abbott, CFG That's really interesting, Maggie. I, I I didn't realise that it goes back to Judah's point about communication and having that shared language. 00:20:54 Emma Abbott, CFG Doesn't it, Judith, do you have any final thoughts on what finance professionals can actually do to hone their leadership skills? 00:21:00 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Yeah, I think I think the thing for me is Bill is is that network of peers, I think that cannot be underestimated and building it at the start of your career, not realising you're in a senior position and thinking you'd better make some connections, it's establishing it right at the beginning and then your group of peers will grow and change. 00:21:21 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Change with you. I think the importance of external sounding boards and they. 00:21:26 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Don't even have to be finance people, but predominantly finance people because I think the point that Maggie's making is the more senior you get, you know, and I see it myself as you know, a a, a partner in an accountancy firm. You can feel in a vacuum from time to time and getting other perspectives is so vitally important. And now I'm always learning from other people. 00:21:46 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent And interestingly, we've been doing the I FL programme a long, long time now and I think the point is you can learn anywhere from anybody and it it's keeping that open mind and. 00:21:59 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Every year I think I learned something new and I'm one of the course directors. I learned from the participants just listening to them and their experiences. So it's not having any preconceptions about where the best learning space is. 00:22:14 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School I I was reflecting, I think that's one of the reasons Judith and I have done the programme for so long and enjoy it. We share the that growth mindset, that love of learning and that would be, I think, if you've got it, great feed it and fuel it in whatever way it takes, you know, it doesn't all have to, doesn't all have to have exams attached unless you live an exam and then go for. 00:22:34 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School That but I think because as we you know when you've got your professional qualifications, choose your learning to choose how you grow and challenge yourself in ways that you enjoy it. That's one of the privileges of going through formal education is as you get further along, you get to choose. And I think if that isn't you look for how might it be. I've got a colleague here. 00:22:56 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School The Centre for Charity Effectiveness at at Bays, who uses the term incidental. 00:23:01 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Evening. And I know on the the last podcast with Emmy, you mentioned Ted Lasso. We love Ted Lasso tonight. Ohh goodness. It kept us going through lockdown for certain, didn't it? But I I sometimes and I'm I'm not. I'm only partly joking when I'll say on a programme I watched last night. That's a leadership resource that you need that. 00:23:22 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School The work it's that incidental learning, you know, a lot of sports people talk about leadership because people are interested in sport and then they're quietly picking up leadership lessons. 00:23:34 And. 00:23:35 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School They're all around us. Choose to use what appeals to you, whether it's reading, experiencing programmes, listening to things. It's it's all about and often how we recognise that incidental learning is happening is if we reflect or in conversations with others like Judith said. 00:23:55 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School And we're always learning. We always each module I go away with notes of things that either I'd forgotten or that I hadn't heard or I hadn't heard in quite that way before. Or it sparks an idea for me that all that's something we could develop for this, or that's something that would be. 00:24:11 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Helpful. I don't get that sitting by myself. 00:24:15 Emma Abbott, CFG It sounds like you both really love still delivering the course, which is fantastic. What? What do you love most about? 00:24:20 Emma Abbott, CFG The course students. 00:24:21 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent So many things. 00:24:22 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent I suppose in a part because it it's. 00:24:24 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Distinctly different from, you know, reading a set of financial statements which I, you know, I spend quite a lot of time doing, and it's specifically focused on the important aspects of that other side of things. It's not about your technical skills, it's it's actually how you can really. 00:24:44 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Lift your technical skills off the page and be and be really effective. And I just love. I love the opportunity to meet, meet more people brewing some of these ideas to them. See them. You know the the reward I get really is to is seeing people reflect think that the ideas and the tools that we're sharing with them are valuable. 00:25:06 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent One of the integral parts of the programme every week we, you know, we send people away with the tools that we've looked at. Sorry, every every month and. 00:25:14 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent The first thing that we do in in every session is we do this reengagement piece where we said, OK, this is what we covered last time. You know, how have you been able to put into practise what your success is, what maybe hasn't worked well, share them amongst yourselves and I really love that part of the course because I think that and that's why it's so beneficial. 00:25:35 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Having the core spread over seven or eight months, you have that opportunity to try things reflect, try. 00:25:42 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Gain and it's building that that habit of consistency into the sort of your day-to-day working pattern, because often we're so hard pressed to do that technical piece, get those papers out for for such and such a meeting we need to build reflection time into our weeks into our months where we're saying well, how was that week. 00:26:02 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent For me, how was that month for me? What? 00:26:04 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent In my in my toolbox. What have I tried to use that appreciative inquiry thing that we're always talking about? You know what worked well and how can I improve it next time? So those are all of the things that I I love about the course and the fact that we're not spending a morning a month talking about numbers. We're talking about how we can actually. 00:26:25 Judith Miller, Sayer Vincent Lift those numbers off the page and be more effective, so that's what's exciting to me and seeing people grow through the. 00:26:31 Emma Abbott, CFG Programme. Maggie, why do you still have a passion for the course? 00:26:34 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School That I believe it makes a difference. And we talked last time about why I do this sort of work generally and it's from sitting in the participant chair and and hearing things that made my working life easier. I think, you know, life is hard. Working life is hard. People are hard. The more that we can offer different perspective. 00:26:54 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Lives and just different things to try to make life easier or performance and efficiency to go for well-being to improve this stuff. We know it makes a difference. We might not know and it's an important part that Judith mentioned that the start of each programme as a check in for exactly that because this is an iterative process. You take it away, you play, you bring it back, you learn from one another. 00:27:19 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School A loss of what works. We never get to hear about actually, because it it happens like it happened for me, a big turning point that actually got me into this work happened three or four months after the coaching session that I. 00:27:32 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Pad and where the light bulb came on was I was. I was clear in the M6 toll, you know when everyone does the accelerating away and you feel like a Formula One driver. For a moment there, the little light bulb went off. That was linked right back to that coaching conversation of Ohh. Maybe I could try that and it was. You know it's when we're not looking directly at it. 00:27:52 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School So yes, I think that's the passion. It just we know it works. Keep the faith. 00:27:56 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Keep and it's. 00:27:58 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Often the things that come into into our minds that we hadn't necessarily intended to say, I know to trust that now and to drop it into the room because I I trust it's popped into my head because somebody's said something that has prompted it. So it will be useful for someone and I think earlier in, in this part of my career. 00:28:18 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School The number of times that people would say, oh, I'm so glad that you said that because it helped me with the that I've let go of needing the evidence in front of me. Now I just trust to be putting it out there. 00:28:30 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Not tangible in the way that you know, taking someone's temperature is. 00:28:33 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School But if we don't allow ourselves reflection time, either alone or with others, and you know, go for a walk, journal, whatever. However you reflect wherever you have your good ideas is a good place to reflect, and so it might be gardening or golfing or whatever you do. If we're not taking that time, we won't see the evidence. 00:28:54 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School Because. 00:28:55 Maggie Smith, Consultant, Bayes Business School We're not being intentional. 00:28:57 Emma Abbott, CFG I love that Maggie. And I think that's a really nice note to end on. I think in our sector, I sometimes wonder if we've trained ourselves to look for and interpret and present the evidence rather than just sort of trying to trust the process and our own instincts. There's certainly a balance to strike. I think, I don't know. But I I like the idea that we should trust that it just. 00:29:16 Emma Abbott, CFG Works on that note. Thank you both so much for another insightful and inspiring conversation. I really hope listeners will find it as useful and thought provoking as I have. I make no apology for the love that we've shared for the finance journey and the inspiring financial leadership course. It's absolutely wonderful to know that there's so much support out there for finance professionals who are looking to develop their careers and grow. 00:29:36 Emma Abbott, CFG And learn so, thanks again, Judith and Maggie. Thanks so much. I hope we get to chat again soon.