Key

CA: = Participant, Catherine Atkinson
H: = Interviewer, Helen
[time e.g. 5:22] = inaudible word at this time
[IA 5:22] = inaudible section at this time
[word] = best guess at word
… = interruption in sentence, trailing off or short pause

H: So, we’re talking about your connection with Crowdundle Beck and I understand that it was the subject of your A Level Geography field project. Why did you choose to study Crowdundle Beck?

CA: It’s a bit of a mouthful, isn’t it . Well, when we moved down to Cumbria from Scotland, we lived in Temple Sowerby, which is quite close to Acorn Bank and the Crowdundle, and I went to school in Appleby. So when it got to me doing my A Levels, part of that two-year programme was to do a Geography field project. So it could’ve been anything – like we said, one girl did her project on the limestone pavements at Orton Scar. It could be anything, urban geography or physical geography, so I chose to do a river study on the river that was reasonably close to where we were in Temple Sowerby, which happened to be the Crowdundle Beck. We used to go up to Acorn Bank a lot when it was a Sue Rider nursing home because that’s where my gran spent the rest of her days, so we would be in that area a lot. But I was interested because it wasn’t just a big free-flowing river; I tracked it from the source to its confluence, so it was quite a detailed study of a river. But that’s why I chose it.

H: What was it particularly about the beck that attracted you?

CA: Once I’d decided that I was gonna do a river study, it was looking at the ordnance survey map of the area, and the Crowdundle Beck, it encapsulated the whole river journey – as in going from the actual source and the geography around that area, then moving to the middle part of the river where it was becoming wider and the geography was changing, and then becoming a much wider, deeper river at the confluence. So it showed beautifully, in cross-section, the flow of the river, so that’s why I was particularly interested in doing that but also, it was very close to home, so that helped too.

H: Can you remember what kind of distance we’re talking about from source to confluence?

CA: Oh, well, it starts right up between Cross Fell and Great Dun Fell and from Temple Sowerby, that must be 15, 18 miles. I’m not a hundred percent sure but certainly, it’s about that distance. In doing the project, we, as in me and my mum, who came with me on all our visits to different points on the Crowdundle… I think I had about fifteen points along the river’s length. So some days, we would walk… well, we took the car as far as possible up the radar road and then walked across to the source, found the source. So that day, we were walking quite a way to get to the top and we might do, say two different sections of investigation at that source. But then on another day, we would’ve been closer to Acorn Bank where we did points on the river there. So we had quite a few different days where we would go out, so sometimes we wouldn’t be travelling very far but then other times, we would be about 15 miles or so away.

H: What were the investigations that you were carrying out on the river?

CA: . So, I have to say, this was back in probably 1988, so this is quite a long time ago that I’m trying to remember but we would do a cross-section of what the riverbed looked like. So that would incorporate choosing the point that you are going to measure and then with a bamboo cane, you would check the depth of the river at, say ten-centimetre intervals across the river and see what the shape of the riverbed was. We would then choose, from that point, a length of the river where we would have an orange and we would see how long it took to float through to different points, so you were checking the velocity of the river. Then we would also get water samples to see how much sediment, what was in the water. Then photos to show what the characteristics of, say what a river looks like at its source, when you’re getting slightly further down, rockiness of the rivers, the slip-off slopes. God, this is all coming back to me . Yeah, so basically, say, with the velocity, I would release the orange at a certain time and mum would have a stop clock and we would say, ‘Right! Got to the point!’ and see how long it would take to get down. We had a lot of fun , we did.

H: I was gonna say, the way you’re talking about it, it actually sounds a hoot, going out with your mum and mucking about on the river. Do you look back on that…?

CA: Yeah, I do and actually, when we got to the sites further down the river, we had the problem that actually, the water was getting really quite deep. So we thought, ‘Well, how are we gonna see really how deep the river is if it’s going over me wellies?’ So Mum asked the local farmer, who was also a keen fisherman, if we could borrow his waders. so I would don these waders, which were far too big for me, and then I would be able to get accurate measurements, ‘cause it was all about the accuracy of what we were doing. The only site that I didn’t get the measurements of the depth was at the confluence because it was far too deep. But we did have a lot of fun doing it.

H: Tell me about this confluence from a geographer’s point of view. The river joins…?

CA: Yeah, the river joins… I’d like to say The Eden, I think, is it? Or the Eamont?

H: I think it might be the Eamont. We’ll have to look at a map. But that’s the end of the Crowdundle Beck?

CA: Yes, that’s the end and that’s quite close to Acorn Bank. So just where the sequoia tree -

H: The Wellingtonia.

CA: The Wellingtonia, just slightly further on, where the road comes to the T-junction, it’s virtually about at that point where -

H: I’ve got a map here. Let’s look at this map and see. I hope I’ve got a map here. So you can talk me through on this map.

CA: So this is very characteristic of a river as it’s reaching the mouth, where you’ve got lots of bends in the river. It doesn’t run straight and true; it’s slow-moving and meandering. So the last point where we did a site was just on the river here, so just off the confluence there. Oh, it is the River Eden! There you go! And the Eamont’s slightly further up, there we go. That’s not very good if I didn’t really remember it was the River Eden. I did think it was the River Eden, but anyway . As I say, it was quite a long time ago .

H: It was a bigger river. Great, OK.

CA: Ah, that’s really lovely seeing that. So you see, the contour lines are mainly spaced out, so you don’t have much gradient, whereas at the source, the gradient is so much steeper.

H: So you measured its depth by taking your life in your hands and going in in your waders. You measured the flow, the velocity with your oranges. You took samples – what were you looking for in the samples of the water?

CA: This is where it’s all a bit hazy. It wasn’t anything too scientific. I think it was seeing whether we had any fish or… what are they called? Like grubs… wildlife in the water, the amount of sediment. But again, see, because we were going out on different days, that would vary anyway, depending on how much rainfall etcetera, how much the river was in spate or not. It was rudimentary, the river study, really, but it was investigating the river. And the thing is, I don’t have my river study. It was one of the ones that was chosen to be sent off as examples of projects that had been done at A Level, so I don’t still have it. I suppose it was my artistic side coming out of me but I remember doing a fabulous front piece where it was looking at a river and the river was meandering and then within the water, it said, ‘A River Study of Crowdundle,’ and that was really nice. Then over the photos, I would do old-fashioned acetate sheets to then lay over and mark distinctive geographical examples of, as I say, things like slip-off slopes or that sort of thing.

H: So did you get a decent grade for your A Level river project?

CA: I think the amount of effort I put into it, I would’ve got a reasonable mark but you didn’t get to know your mark because it was all part of your final grade. And the thing was, I wasn’t good at exams, so my overall grade was a D but that was more because of my exam marks. But anyway, that was a long time ago .

H: But going back to the times that you and your mum spent there, did you meet other people while you were fishing about in the river?

CA: No, we didn’t because we were probably a bit naughty in some of the spots that we chose to do our sites because we were probably going on private land and in farmers’ fields and things. So we didn’t make ourselves known that we were doing these. I mean, I’m sure they wouldn’t have had a problem with what we were doing in the river but… so no, I don’t think we ever met anybody, particularly when we were trying to find the blinking source of the river which took some doing.

H: So now, you live not too far away, really. Do you visit now? Do you ever go back and remember those days of A Levels?

CA: I’ve been back to Acorn Bank and I haven’t walked down the back of Acorn Bank for a while. I think one of the last times we went was when the snowdrops were out and
it’s just so pretty. But I’ll often go past the entrance to Acorn Bank and go along that bit of road, so I’m going along by the Crowdundle Beck. I mean, I do have really fond memories of doing that project and, in a way, it would be interesting to see, if that project were done again, as to what the changes to the river would be, forty years on.

H: I wonder if any other enterprising student has gone back and studied it in your wake. That would be interesting.

CA: Yeah, it would, ‘cause unfortunately my Geography teacher that was at Appleby, oh for many, many years after we left, he died just last year. But it would’ve been nice to have gone back and asked him whether anyone else had done it. And whatever happened to my project? ‘cause I would’ve liked to have had it back but anyway, never mind.
H: Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you wanted to remember about that beck or how you feel about it now?
CA: I think, as I’ve slightly mentioned, Mum was such an important part to that project as well and I did dedicate my river study project to Mum, in the front. Because she did give up so much time and took me to all these different parts of the river and helped me really create a fabulous project. So yeah, I think I do look back on those times with a lot of fun, and I’ve got a picture, actually. I’ve got a picture of me. So the photo is of me as a 17-year-old in these long, green waders that look rather crumpled at the knees. And then I think I’m wearing my mum’s jacket, and I think this possibly was near the confluence, that part of the river. And in one hand, I’m holding a bamboo cane and in the other hand, I am holding a rather large orange and I’ve also got a wicker basket, for some reason. I think that’s just what we carried all the bits and pieces – the jars for the water samples, notebook and bits and pieces, probably a bit of something to eat as well. Because a lot of these places that we did choose to measure the river, they were away from the road, so we had to have some way of carrying this stuff, so it was the wicker basket, by the looks of things. I’m looking slightly windswept and interesting.

H: You have a big smile on your face.

CA: I do, yeah. And the sun’s shining, so that must’ve been a good day for going out. So yeah, happy times.

H: Very happy times. And tell me again, it was Appleby Grammar.

CA: Appleby Grammar, yeah.

H: When did you start and finish there then?

CA: Well, I started in 1981 and should’ve finished in 1988 but I stayed on for another year ‘cause as I say, I wasn’t very good at exams and didn’t get the grades I needed to go to Hull to do my nursing. So I decided to go back to school part-time to redo my Biology and Statistic A Levels. I didn’t redo my Geography . But anyway, mid- to late-eighties was when I was at Appleby.

H: It’s an interesting thing, isn’t it, that a project that really sticks in your mind and your memory is not something that you ever pursued in a career.

CA: No, I mean I was always interested in Geography but yeah, didn’t ever really want to pursue it. But I think for me, doing hands-on, interesting project work was such a better way of showing what I could do, rather than sitting down and doing exams and that’s just the way it is. We were the last year of O Levels and then it changed to GCSEs and it became more project-based, I think, the way they structured the GCSEs. So that would’ve maybe suited me a lot better, but that’s just one of those things. But I put my heart and soul into that project, yeah.