PB S2E13 ===

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:00:00] Hi, Paul.

Paul Adelstein: Wow. Wow. The killing box.

Sarah Wayne Callies: The killing box.

Paul Adelstein: Say it with me so I can sync up our things perfectly. Ready? And I'm gonna say 3, 2, 1. The killing box. 3, 3, 2, 1. The killing box. The killing box. Yeah. Okay. Uh, that is a, that is okay. That was a huge, I mean, that's a huge episode. It's obviously the season. Yes.

It's obviously the season. Uh, midseason finale, midseason finale, and, um. We talked about this last time, [00:01:00] but the kind of narrative, uh, device of people turning and heading back into the flames.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Yeah. It's

Paul Adelstein: a continuation of that idea. Right? I mean, obviously now Kellerman is on their team and they're going after Reynolds, so like it's like.

They've, uh, like you were talking about during the rewatch Oh, the onion peeling. Like who's behind the person? Behind the person. Yep. Like at first they were like, we're gonna get you exonerated. Let's fight like hell. Now they're going to take the president down.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Now it's time to, now it's time to take down the president of the United States.

States and I mean, the ace in the hole is brilliant. We'll get to this after the index so people have a chance to listen to the Okay. Okay. The rewatch. But do you wanna start by just explaining to people what a Midseason finale was? So, 'cause it's very much a live TV event.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. So, uh, with shows that about 22 episodes, they would do, I feel like maybe 24 or Prison Break [00:02:00] invented this.

Is that I, I honestly don't know that they would maybe, um, do two things. Um, they would take a break after episode, let's say 13. Uh, and it would go off the air for maybe a month. There'd be a lot of press around it. And that episode. Mm-hmm. Would have some huge twists and turns and oh my gosh, what happens next moments.

Mm-hmm. And essentially what it does, I, uh, it, it, it accomplishes a lot of things. It builds suspense for a show that people needed to see every week. Yeah. Right. A kind of water cooler show. This is why you

Sarah Wayne Callies: have to tune in live. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: And then it allows people to get caught up. Yep. Allows them to, it allows production to get caught up, which is a huge thing.

It allows the writers Yeah. Uh, production on editors on the ground and the editors to get caught up because, you know, laying track on a moving train is very complicated. Um, and it [00:03:00] allows you to build new audience because they kind of, I think what they, I remember them doing God bless residuals, is they would replay the first half of the season while we were off the air.

Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It was almost like, uh, winter holiday reruns. Yeah. You know, because I think the other thing was, let's not burn episodes when people are gonna be on vacation in Cancun. Oh, interesting. And not watching live tv. Uhhuh Uhhuh. So, and I remember there being, so it made sense of.

Paul Adelstein: Yep.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Around it. Mm-hmm. You know, like the, uh, I've, I've got actually a couple videos of some stuff from season one of just like that I took of like magazines.

Like I think we were on the cover of EW. And it was like the show was back for the second half right of the season. And so it was another press blitz and stuff. Um, yeah.

Paul Adelstein: And I remember.

Them advertising it as mid-season finale.

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:04:00] Absolutely.

Paul Adelstein: So then people are really like, oh, I gotta get caught up. I gotta watch it, da da da. And then obviously this is a huge twist.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, and it sets, it definitely sets up for a show as, as plot dense, as prison break it sets up. So the first half of the second season was we left them on an airstrip running for their lives.

What do they do now? And the second half of the season, as you pointed out, is now the driver is, we're gonna turn around and we're gonna take it, we're gonna take the fight, um, to them. And so, okay, so with that in mind, so much changed. Um, and I'm relatively sure that in the filming of this episode, this is when I realized I was pregnant.

Paul Adelstein: Oh my goodness.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, this

Paul Adelstein: is so really amid these really a lots of twists.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Lot, lot. There were a few plot twists, um, some on camera and some off. So yeah. Do you wanna index us so that we [00:05:00] Yes.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, ready for the Palestine in Index for episode two 13. Uh, the Killing Box first aired on November 27th, 2006.

You're right. So it's right around the holidays, which is presumably Thanksgiving. Written by the great Zach Estrin and directed by Bobby Roth. Fun fact, Bobby Roth directed more episodes of Prison Break than any other director. Wild Right, which is 15. Even. Kevin Hooks our producing director for most of the first four seasons.

Came in at 14. That's a whole lot. The next closest directors came in at five. So Bobby, big influence on the show is what we're saying. And episode two 13 was Bobby's fifth that showed Route 9.62 million viewers, exactly the same as last week's episode against the regular competition in the 8:00 PM slot.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, to recap the Midseason finale extravaganza, this is long, but there's a lot that happens, although, uh, worth pointing out no c note in this episode. No haywire in this episode. So much happened with the brothers that there wasn't a ton of real estate for that. [00:06:00] Right. Um, so when we left Michael and Lincoln, can you, okay.

Excuse me, I've got a frog in my throat. Yep. Um, when we left our heroes, Michael and Lincoln had been t-boned by Mahon whose intent on killing them. So when we pick up, um, before Mahon can take his shot, surprise the police arrive, the border patrol, um, they arrive, they arrest the brothers. Kellerman convinces Kim to give him one last chance to kill the brothers during their police transfer back to Fox River.

Uh, Kim gives Kellerman permission and then another surprise Kim double crosses him instructing Mahome to kill Kellerman after the brothers are dead. Uh, but when the brothers escape in the police transfer, which is not actually super surprising because that's kind of their thing. Um, Kellerman in another surprise shoots mahon.

And offers his services to Michael and Lincoln so that the three of them can escape together. And, uh, what did you say? Uh, take the, something about the

Paul Adelstein: [00:07:00] bitch. Take the bitch down.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Let's take the bitch down. Um, uh, so that's, that's the giant, um, sort of story that takes us through the show, uh, in what can best be described as an object lesson in the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Aha. In other news. Uh, Beek is, um, accused of Gary's murder, does a plea deal. Chooses to serve his sentence in Fox River so that the cos there can take care of him. But in another surprise, he discovers that the new Fox River warden will give him zero special privileges and he is sent to avocados sell

Paul Adelstein: by the return of Phil Van Lear

Sarah Wayne Callies: by the return of the wonderful CEO Phil Van Lear.

And the return also of, uh, shooting a prison that looks a lot like Juliet like now, we were. In Dallas? Yeah. Uh, elsewhere. Teabag starts, uh, seducing a woman who works at the post office. Sweet Denise. As a means to locate Mrs. Hollander's house. The woman finds out who he is, so [00:08:00] he kills her, which is not super surprising 'cause that's kind of his thing.

What is surprising, um, or surprise duh, is the look on Mrs. Hollander's face when teabag shows up at her house. Uh, at the same time, Dr. Sarah becomes desperate to change her appearance to avoid detection and DIYs a makeover

Paul Adelstein: in Iraq War News on December 1st, a memo leaked from the White House in which former SEC defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, admitted that the US had more or less botched the Iraq war. Huh. Which is first time this first time anyone said it out loud admitted that, and in global Humans Right News. In Global Human Rights News on November 30th, south Africa's Civil Union Act of 2006 legalized same-sex marriage in that country.

Make it the first country in Africa to do so in the fifth country in the world, uh, before the United States did it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Before the United States did it. That's right. Um, although I am curious about what the first four countries were. I didn't look that one up. Um, in Indiana Jones [00:09:00] News, uh, on November 25th, a major breakthrough was made, made in deciphering the antique cthe device.

That device is a real piece of actual second century BC technology known wow as the world's largest analog computers oldest suck it. Sorry, oldest. You're right, you're right. The, um, yeah, the world's oldest analog computer. Thank you. Um, take that. Bill Gates. Uh, so the Anthea device is also the basis for the dial of destiny, ah, which led us straight into the most recent Indiana Jones film.

Um, go Science, uh, and in magical realism news. November 24th was the English language release of the film Pans Labyrinth, which is one of my all time favorite movies. I do not

Paul Adelstein: believe that movie's that old, that is freaking me out.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, it's, I mean, it's so astonishing. Um. It was directed by Guillermo del Toro.

It was a masterpiece. It would go on to win three Academy Awards and be widely praised by critics around the world. So that's what was going on around the time the [00:10:00] episode aired. Um, we'll be right back to talk about the episode itself. We'll

Paul Adelstein: be right back to talk about the episode itself.

And we're back. I, uh, am looking up Denise, who is played by oh, Silva. K uh, K Kian. Uh, has she been in anything else that do, who was married to Jude Ciella, who was a series regular on 24. Interesting enough, she.

Sarah Wayne Callies: She was heartbreaking. So while you're looking this up, she played Denise. Denise.

Paul Adelstein: She was in a movie I was in, and that's why I recognize her.

Oh

Sarah Wayne Callies: my God. It's six degrees of Paul Needleson,

Paul Adelstein: return to Zero in 2014. She's also been on every TV show Imaginable. Prison Break and then After Prison Break. Big Love, desperate Housewife, bones. Cole, KCR, Olian, Alice Southland, N-C-I-S-C-S-I. Crime Scene Investigation boned on and on.

Sarah Wayne Callies: What's her name again?

Paul Adelstein: Silva, S-Y-L-V-A, Silva [00:11:00] Collegian. K-E-L-E-G-I-A-N. She's wonderful.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, she's Armenian. Um, she was fantastic and I, the, the thing that was going on with her and teabag. In this episode really to me, sort of spoke of to the heart of the episode in a lot of ways, this idea that she, this idea that of like the tender things we're trying to protect and connect.

Does that make sense?

Paul Adelstein: Like Yeah, but go on, say it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, I mean, we were talking about it in the rewatch, but there's this beautiful moment where Denise. Genuinely kind of like opens up and you see teabag, like receive it and love it. Mm-hmm. And want to be gentle and safe with someone's broken bits because he's so broken.

Yeah. [00:12:00] Um, there's that moment between Michael and Lincoln of Do you regret it? Uhhuh There's that vulnerable moment of Sarah talking to, leaving that message from Michael of saying, I need you, that you pointed out as the first time she's ever said. Um, there's Lerman, I think, expresses it differently, but there's a massive pivot for him of like, now I'm out in the cold.

I just, I think you see a lot of it in Mahome, this very broken part of himself that he's trying to navigate and protect and that makes him vulnerable. Mm-hmm. And I think, what am I saying? It's, it's the vulnerabilities that make us, it's our soft parts that make us vulnerable. Yeah. It's also the only reason we care about these characters.

Paul Adelstein: Right. And, and you know, the. Even though it said sarcastically, she said, she says, uh, sorry. Kim says, you know, so we can all get back to our families, [00:13:00] you know? Yeah. Alex says, I want to be near my mother, which is obviously you're polite to get to Fox River, but there is this motive, you know, peaks into the motivations.

There's also, I think the thing with. Sorry, what were you gonna say?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, I think it's, it's a ploy to get near his mother, but it also is kind of true. I mean, what I think is smart is that what I love about Zach's writing, there's a version of this that's just. Action. Double crossing betrayal. It's very smart, it's very slick.

It's very da da. But he also threads through these just like these moments where you love Denise.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I think who you're never gonna see again.

Paul Adelstein: And I think as you say that, what I realize is that, you know, it, this would work right as, uh, Maho wants to kill. The boys 'cause they've humiliated him.

Mm-hmm. Kellerman wants to kill Kim [00:14:00] because he's cut him out. Mm-hmm. Uh, and you know, um, teabag wants to kill Denise 'cause he's a psychopath. They're, all those things are actually to get to something else. Mm-hmm. Mahomes needs to kill the boy so he can get home. Calvan wants to get back, go through Kim so he can get to Reynolds like there's these mm-hmm.

You know, uh mm-hmm. TBA has to get to Denise to get to Mrs. Hollander. And so yeah, there, there's the kind of laying in the humanity, even in the midst of these, for lack of a better term, dastardly deeds. Um.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I would even argue,

Paul Adelstein: I don't wanna, that it

Sarah Wayne Callies: crosses his mind that she's the next Mrs. Hollander.

You think you get that? Like if she hadn't, when he says she hadn't seen the picture, I really wish you hadn't seen that. I wanna believe, and I don't know why, but I wanna believe. That he genuinely [00:15:00] like would've given it a shot. Mm. That he found someone broken who will accept what he has to give and they can be sort of broken and sweet together and she idolizes him and he wants that.

And that like, there's almost that, that's what I always love about Teabag is that there's this sense that like. Not that I'm suggesting anyone should just overlook all the dead bodies and no pedophilia right, and horrible things he's done. But you do get a sense that there is genuinely a part of him that wants to be rehabilitated and wants to be deeply embedded in a safe family dynamic.

And maybe if he had that, he'd stop killing people.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm sorry. I feel like I get, is

Paul Adelstein: he capable and you know. If the answer seems to be no. Yeah. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:16:00] um, and I, I said this on a rewatch, I'm gonna say it again. I freaking love, uh, Kellerman in the cold, kellerman in the cold with his kind of like half wise guy, half like,

Paul Adelstein: he seems different.

He seems different to you.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. It feels like he's a little bit like, ah. All right, we'll do it this way. Hold my beer. Like there's a reluctant, vigilante vibe to it. Um,

Paul Adelstein: that

Sarah Wayne Callies: I like a lot and I misread it at the beginning as, oh, he's got Kim right where he wants him and he's got a plan. And by the end you're like, oh, shit.

Those are both true things, but the plan is not, the plan is I am done taking orders from. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I just think it's really cool. It's really fun.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, it was a huge thing for me personally. I didn't. Uh, I didn't realize, well, [00:17:00] when I read it, I was, I, I remember, I remember being in my apartment in Dallas when I read it and being so.

I fucking psyched, for lack of a better term. Yeah. You know, there's a thing too where there's again, the meta thing, which is like Kellerman is stepping into the boys' lives. Right. And it's a step up for him in a way. Mm-hmm. And like I was mm-hmm. I was moving from B story to a story. Okay. It was, it's just like, oh, oh, I'm, I get to go play.

Like I get to go play with the starters. You know? Right, right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Not, not that there was Right, you're on the lineup.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Not that there, not that there was a hierarchy in that way, but you're just like, oh, I'm in the A story now. Like, that's

Sarah Wayne Callies: amazing. I've, I've never, I was never have read a script that way because I, not, I never, I wasn't, but you knew enough to it.

But like I put you this year, but it's a cool, it's a cool, it's a smart

Paul Adelstein: reaction.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I don't know

Paul Adelstein: if I could have [00:18:00] identified it that way, but it was the feeling of like, you know how we talk about it all the time? We talked about it with Lane last week. Like we were all in these different shows.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yep.

Paul Adelstein: Suddenly I'm in a show with them.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Like suddenly I'm in, but kind of

Sarah Wayne Callies: for

Paul Adelstein: the first time. A hundred percent for the first time. I mean, I don't, I think I had what you, like I had the one scene ran

Sarah Wayne Callies: around a parking lot with Lane, I mean, not with Lane, with, um, link,

Paul Adelstein: I mean, I shooting

Sarah Wayne Callies: him with a,

Paul Adelstein: I put my hand over his mouth. That was basically it.

I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. Uh. So it was exciting on that front. And then I remember feeling the explosion of, maybe it was online. I don't remember if it was like television without pity or what, but it was the explosion of attention.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, interesting.

Paul Adelstein: Given like, you know, my character had had massive effect on the storyline before, but not like that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and also you're on the side, the fans [00:19:00] are on now. Correct? You're on Team Michael instead of against Team Michael. I mean, this is where

Paul Adelstein: I got the, um, I hated you so much, and then

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, wow. And it would've been pretty instant. I mean, because when we're shooting this, ah, I

Paul Adelstein: also, sorry. Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah. Just time-wise.

Oh yeah. We, we were shooting this in late October, or no, we were shooting this in early November. Yeah. And it aired four weeks later. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: I also think that, to your point, um, you know, they, I don't think they, I wouldn't say on purpose, but these things all work together in good writing is that Keman has been out in the cold for a couple of episodes, and that does garner him a little sympathy, you know, like you said.

Mm-hmm. By putting a boss and an enemy above Kellerman. I'm not saying this is why they do it, but it again, it like mm-hmm. Suddenly he's not the bad guy pulling the strings. There's a bad guy [00:20:00] above pulling him, pulling the strings. He's the victim of the own same kind of process. So he becomes Right. A more sympathetic character

Sarah Wayne Callies: and you just saw him.

You saw it cost him something to do his job to, in, in the taking of, in the fact that he didn't shoot Sarah when he could have, um, there's a little bit of humanity and I think the show is very good about opening a crack of humanity. Yeah. And then leaning all the way into it. Yeah. Um, wow. Not to mention you're about to be a lot less bored in Dallas just because like.

You know, you had been working like a day or two and all of a sudden it's like, oh, now you're kind of full time. Yeah. It was

Paul Adelstein: very exciting. It was very fun of it. Oh, that's awesome. So talk about, um, the scene on the street where you call Michael and leave that message. And like you said, there's this really cool thing that, um, Bobby Roth did as, as, uh, the [00:21:00] director where it's pushing it on Michael.

Behind bars, they can see the phone. Oh, they can see the phone. And it's almost like he can hear the message that she's leaving and the message is, mm-hmm. I don't think we've heard Sarah say this before. She's like, I need you. Which is different mm-hmm. Than you have to help me. You, you fuck my life up.

What is your plan? Mm-hmm. I think she feels she doesn't trust anybody else. She's injured. Mm-hmm. She's almost been killed. She needs him. I need you. It's a big turn for her, it feels like. Mm-hmm. Or a big, uh, turn. Might not be the right word. Do, do you remember it?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, I remember thinking we talked about this a little bit on the rewatch.

I remember thinking it's one of those moments when I think, I think so she's walking down the street. Yeah. She's left a message for Michael and said. Uh, I need you, I need you to be okay. I didn't leave you. It's the, you know, it's [00:22:00] all the things Michael would wanna hear. Mm. And um, and of course he can't hear them because his phone is in a plastic bag.

In police custody. Mm-hmm. But then she sees that they've been captured. That's like playing in the, the window of a Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, on TV in the window of a, a shop. Yeah. And it's that moment, I think where the whole world turns for her a little bit. Where it's like, yeah. Where it's like, oh, all of these things, there's just, everything's been taken away.

She's almost died, like the most traumatic event of her life. Um, yeah. Everyone she has trusted has turned out not to be trustworthy, including Lance. Ah, and I think Michael all of a sudden becomes her best option. Um, and I think through it all, she also kind of comes away with this like, [00:23:00] and I. Whatever I feel for him I can't get rid of.

Paul Adelstein: Okay. Uh, this is what I just wrote down. Do, do you, to seeing him on tv, the fact that they've gotten busted, does that motivate that feeling?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Because

Paul Adelstein: I

Sarah Wayne Callies: was, no, I think the feeling of. Yeah, I'm in too deep with this guy to go anywhere but with him.

Paul Adelstein: Mm. And I'm

Sarah Wayne Callies: not safe. That comes from what happened with Kellerman. Right. I think that that's that and, and that started right when she got back into the car to go back to him in Gila.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think what motivates that sense of, oh my God, I'm completely alone in this.

Is seeing that they've been arrested because ah, I mean he's in custody. He's going back to Fox River. There is now no one. It goes from I need to find [00:24:00] Michael to, I need to, I need to hide. So she, you know, she cuts her hair and, uh, dumps her, ID, dumps her phone. Yeah. All that stuff.

Paul Adelstein: Which she had kind of already started the process of when she, when they tried to kill her in Chicago.

Before she escaped. Right? On the, at the payphone. Like you get the other, that woman's ID and all that stuff. But now, yeah, now it's like they probably, that feels like that cover is blown and it's time to like, yep. Move on

Sarah Wayne Callies: and there's no plan. You know? I mean, I think the idea is that she's kind of going off into the ether with like no plan.

There's, there is a key. And so, you know, I wonder if at some point she realizes that Kellerman was trying to kill her for this key. Yeah, but I don't know what to do with with it. Do you try, who do I

Paul Adelstein: go to?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, what's where, where on earth, not to mention that key, she's in New Mexico. That key would be something, would be a, something [00:25:00] in Chicago, which is Chicago or

Paul Adelstein: DC at the, who knows

Sarah Wayne Callies: a long way.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Fascinating. So,

Sarah Wayne Callies: and in between those scenes I got pregnant. In between shooting those scenes, I found out I was pregnant. Better than during, I think,

Paul Adelstein: um, better than during. Um, that's incredible. Do you remember specific, like, do you remember? I don't know. And you don't have to talk about it obviously if you don't want to.

Like, do you remember finding out, was it during the shooting of that episode? Do you remember? Like, going home? I think it

Sarah Wayne Callies: was, well, because if I remember right, if I, and I feel like I already told part of the story, but I remember, I, I, we went in to color my hair. It went black. Um, oh yes.

Paul Adelstein: I love this story.

Right? So that would've been this.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That was this. So Nono says to me, pick up a pregnancy test on the way home. My mom is in town. I discover I'm pregnant. Um, what's the, the part of this that we haven't really talked about is I [00:26:00] then told no one because, you know, I was weeks pregnant this long and Yeah. And it was a first pregnancy.

Yeah. And, you know, those don't always stick. And so, um, I was fine. So I shot this stuff. And then very shortly thereafter, had a photo shoot for some magazine in New York City, and I went over to this. I went up to the city and we were doing the photo shoot, and I got morning sickness for the first time.

Oof. At the photo shoot. Oh. And I'm still not telling one on anyone. I'm pregnant. So I'm at a photo shoot for, I think it was like a men's magazine, men's health or something. And I keep running to the bathroom to throw up. Oh no. And I was like, oh my God, I look like. I, I look like I'm, you know, struggling with an eating disorder here, but I didn't tell anyone because Yeah.

[00:27:00] Leaks were everywhere with that show. Yeah. And eventually when my pregnancy was announced, it was not voluntary. Oh my gosh. Like it was found out by the press. Oh, that's awful. And they called my publicist at the time and were like, we're gonna drop this next week. We just wanna give Sarah a heads up. Ugh.

And I was like, you can't drop this. And they were like, we absolutely will. Um. And so I ended up having to call a bunch of people and tell them, but that was, that was down the road. So it was just a weird, like, I don't even know if I told production immediately, I was gonna ask, you know, like my mom was there.

I called my friend Ingrid because she was one of my few friends who'd had a baby before me. Hmm. Um,

Paul Adelstein: you were young.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I was 29. Yeah. I mean that like,

Paul Adelstein: that's young in this business to start with. The children.

Sarah Wayne Callies: For my group of friends, you know? Yeah, it was, it was a very young kind of thing. Um, I don't remember when I told everyone, I think I told, [00:28:00] I remember I told Wentworth because we were super close and also he was like one of two people I really knew in Dallas.

My friend Molly from high school lived in Dallas and we. Met for dinner at one point, and I didn't have anything to drink. And she was like, what's going on? And I'm like, wait a minute. You didn't either. And we both, we were pregnant at the same time.

Paul Adelstein: That's amazing.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Molly was like, oh my God, we're doing this together.

And so we were like pregnancy buddies and you know, swapping, like, try the ginger chews this week. They worked for me in the throwing up. Yeah, yeah. Um, and how, but yeah, it was, it was this. How old is that child now? The child is currently 17 and going to university in the fall, which is so

Paul Adelstein: Okay. Wow. So confusing.

Um, I don't think to make it about me, [00:29:00] I don't think I knew when we shot the train stuff, which I. I feel, I don't

Sarah Wayne Callies: think,

Paul Adelstein: I don't think I did Sarah, because I don't, I don't remember being, I mean, as we realized in the bathtub scene, maybe I'm just not that careful, but I, I don't remember having to be No, you're

Sarah Wayne Callies: totally careful.

I

Paul Adelstein: don't remember having, uh, feeling concerned for your. Uh, safety in that way.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, but there was a train seat between us.

Paul Adelstein: Right. Also, you're choking me. I didn't do anything to you.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right? There wasn't, I didn't have, I cannot remember when I told production I'd have

Paul Adelstein: to go through, and that's gonna be, especially as the season, especially when we start talking about season three, which obviously as we get into the second half of season two, we will.

Yeah, it's gonna be an interesting, uh, story for you to tell as much of it as you want because pregnancy was looked on a [00:30:00] little differently then

Sarah Wayne Callies: for actresses. That's right. For

Paul Adelstein: actors, actresses by studios in the midst of shows.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. I, I mean, it was, it was head twisting and confusing. Um,

Paul Adelstein: and we could talk about it as I went with was amazing as much or as little as as you want.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, for sure. I mean it's, I have a very strong memory of where and when I told the crew, I wonder if I'll know the scene when I see it Uhhuh. But I remember like coming to work and it was after the train stuff, well after the train stuff. And I think I'd only like, I was so tight-lipped with it. I don't remember if I told you.

I don't think so. I think I just told Wentworth. I think he was the only person on the cast that knew because the idea of like,

Paul Adelstein: oh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Having to then deal with that with everybody's emotions. Yeah. If the pregnancy was miscarriage, like I just, it was just, it was too much. Um, [00:31:00] pardon that. And also like, I was 29 and super healthy, do you know what I mean?

Like apart from the, the morning sickness. Yeah. I was like, I, I don't need accommodation. I don't need anybody to,

Paul Adelstein: um, pardon my gestational ignorance, but, um, were you showing by the end of the season?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Barely Uhhuh. Barely uhhuh. I mean, I was also like, I started, before I got pregnant, I was in the best shape of my life, Uhhuh.

And so, you know the thing, there's a scene that we'll get to where the fans, the thing they noticed is like my top got bigger. The way happens. And I remember there was something, Wentworth sent me something, some television without pity thing that was like, there was a debate going on about like. Did Sarah get a boob job?

Or is she pregnant? Wow. And I was like, well,

Paul Adelstein: uh, let's, uh, uh, the internet,

Sarah Wayne Callies: uh, the internet. Um, we'll get to some of that stuff more.

Paul Adelstein: Did you, uh, yeah, we can get to some of that stuff. [00:32:00] We, I have more to talk about, but I want, I wanted to talk about television without pity for a second, but maybe we should continue on the

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh,

Paul Adelstein: episode.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, no, no. Please.

Paul Adelstein: Um, I found out about television without pity during season two because Wentworth. I don't remember what we were talk, we were on the phone actually. Mm-hmm. Sharing thoughts about some scene or, I don't remember what it was. Mm-hmm. We got pretty close and he was like, uh, if you wanna feel good about yourself, uh, you should go check this website out and look at this one.

Comment or something. Oh, nice. Yeah. So it was something about Kellerman being handsome or some, them calling me the magnificent, they started calling me The Magnificent Bastard. Um, really? Yeah. Which is from one of my favorite movies. It's from Patton,

Sarah Wayne Callies: the magnificent bastard. He calls m that might be all I ever call you here.

He calls Roel.

Paul Adelstein: He's like, you man. Magnificent bastard. I, you know, [00:33:00] it's like, uh. But then I started reading television with without pity quite a bit. And then I thought, this isn't good for me. That's not good for you. No. Um, but it was really the beginning of that, and I remember listening to, mm-hmm. Um. Um, Craig, uh, Wright and John August podcast.

Screenwriting podcast. Oh yeah. And they had a woman on there who's now a screenwriter, I think, but she wrote for television without pity, and that became like the writer at Gawker. And she talked about, I didn't realize wow. How television, like all those television, uh, pity writers who were like in their early twenties and just basically just blogging.

Yeah, a lot of them went on to be critics and writers and that it was really one of the first online forums for that kind of interaction. And that kind of like half snarky, half fun, um, recapping, well 'cause what

Sarah Wayne Callies: was their tagline? Uh, spare the snark, spoil the networks, something like that. Like it was so [00:34:00] snarky.

And I also knew, but it was also smart.

Paul Adelstein: Very smart. And I also knew that the networks read it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. I knew that it became important to them and it was before, you know, it was before that. Any kind of algorithmic tracking of that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Um, and looking back on it, like, as we've talked about so many times, like the confluence of this show and the internet kind of developing at the same time had, had, definitely had an effect.

Did you read any of that stuff?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wentworth would send me stuff periodically. I think I started, I think season one, I was fascinated. Um, but I don't read reviews and it very quickly became Yeah. I was like, this isn't good for me. Yeah. And to be honest, it wasn't good for me because a lot of it was positive.

Yeah. And I was like, I could get addicted to this. Yeah. And now all of a sudden I just want. People to love me. Constant juice.

Paul Adelstein: [00:35:00] Constant juice, yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's a, yeah, it's a dangerous, it's the wrong kind of dopamine. Yeah, that's right. Not that there are different kinds of dopamine, but I know what you mean. It also, you know, I'll be honest.

I also backed away from it at a certain point because it, I saw it hurting him. Oh. You know, like he was really isolated in Dallas and like socially, he didn't really participate much outside of hanging out with you or hanging out with me. And so, you know, like the. Liz Lane was talking about like the guys all just got super tight and they had this, you know, kind of like deep social life with each other and whatever.

And I, there's no doubt in my mind Wentworth would've been welcome there. Um, but it just wasn't his state. Oh he wasn't, you know, and so yeah, he wasn't comfortable with it. He chose to not participate in that. And so Dallas specifically was quite isolating. Um, and yeah. Especially 'cause he was so famous.

Yeah. From the jump. Yeah. As soon as we got there and we weren't. Sequestered in the [00:36:00] prison anymore. We were out shooting on location and fans show and different vibe show up and different,

Paul Adelstein: different vibes in Dallas for sure.

Sarah Wayne Callies: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So,

Paul Adelstein: um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I worried about television without pity with him.

Yeah. And I was like, I'm gonna back off of this thing because I just, you know, um, I didn't like that. Sometimes it hurt him.

Paul Adelstein: Have you ever eaten an apple with a knife like Kellerman does?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Every time we go hiking, my husband will serve up an apple with a knife.

Paul Adelstein: Sure, sure.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, I don't know that I've done it personally.

Was it a choice based in like,

Paul Adelstein: I have

no recollection. I can't, it doesn't. I know that it, one, it looks fucking cool point. I got into knives a little bit.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, that makes sense. In Dallas. 'cause there were all those like, yeah. I went to my first gun show in that, and I'm a camp,

Paul Adelstein: you know, I go camping and so I was into like this, these Gerber knives and shit, but I can't, I, yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah.

Paul Adelstein: It just

doesn't seem, I am, I think that's a Zach Estrin thing. I honestly [00:37:00] believe it's one of those things that they might have put in the, the script. Yeah. I, I, I can't,

Sarah Wayne Callies: it does

tell a story

Paul Adelstein: Uhhuh. I, I don't know. I don't, it doesn't, it seems kellerman to me. I, I, I don't object to it, but I don't think it's something I would've been like.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Do you eat apples with knives?

Paul Adelstein: Yes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, I buy that.

Paul Adelstein: Not like

that. Oh, you're not supposed to cut toward, how else do you eat an apple with a knife? Well, don't cut, don't cut towards your own thumb. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: oh, I see. I, I will say it was the moment where I was like, this is a different kellerman. Oh, that's interesting.

It was such a different physical piece of business, Uhhuh that I loved it. I, I'm so here for the new Kellerman.

Paul Adelstein: He's really

letting loose.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and also like, boy, did he heal quick, you know, like him running around like he's got a burn. Yeah. Well he's got an iron burn from here to here. I

Paul Adelstein: mean,

Sarah Wayne Callies: and at no point is he even like, ah, ointment.

Like, so I, do you have any Neosporin? [00:38:00] Um. Not that there was a place for it, but it's, you know, you talk about this a lot, like TV

Paul Adelstein: healing, healing properties.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Like even his ability, like the gun that he's setting up, you would have to have here, right? The big long gun. Yeah. It would hurt. It would hurt like crazy.

Um,

Paul Adelstein: I mean, that's a third degree burn, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I, I mean, probably the buttons have melted to your skin. Ah,

Paul Adelstein: golly. Okay. Yeah, right. It's horrible because. Heather, do you remember Heather? We

Sarah Wayne Callies: can

Paul Adelstein: keep going on this.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Heather makeup.

Paul Adelstein: Heather makeup. She, oh my God, she was so sweet, so sweet. And kind of a genius. Loved her kind of a, um, prosthetic with prosthetics.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Silicon genius. And she built like creatures and would go to creature shows and she was one of those people. Oh, no way. Yeah. She was really, really

Sarah Wayne Callies: talented. Oh, I loved Heather. Yeah. Heather, wherever you are. We love you so much. Hey, um, we've got a couple. A fan question episode. Yeah. Let's take a quick break and come back to this episode.

Do you wanna take a little [00:39:00] break and then Yeah. Um, okay, cool.

Paul Adelstein: All right. Be right back.

We're back. We're back.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, couple of fan questions and also we've got a call in question this week.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, fantastic. All right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, okay. I, I'm gonna ask you this one at me. Mimo Eyes. Okay. M-E-M-O-I-Z-E. Um, says my favorite character is Db Cooper. Who do you think truly deserved his money in the end?

Paul Adelstein: The

Sarah Wayne Callies: cat?

Strong figure, Marilyn. Oh, what's Marilyn gonna do with $5 million?

Paul Adelstein: Eat. Well. Sleep Well just have like warm all the posts.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Raw tuna. Yeah, whatever. Every day. Yeah. Marilyn. Okay. That's a good answer.

Paul Adelstein: Who do you think,

Sarah Wayne Callies: well, he said something about finding his daughter. Like [00:40:00] I, there's a version out there to me where. They somehow find Westmoreland's daughter and show up and she hides them and falls in love with Lincoln or something. I don't know. Like I, I think after season one I sort of expected there to be a westmoreland's daughter, Uhhuh component of this.

I think at some point, maybe Michael Sense, some, I can't remember what happens with it. Um, but it does seem fair that it would go to her. That's not a very exciting answer though. Yeah,

Paul Adelstein: that's a good answer. Um. She's never on camera. Here's a good question for you at

Sarah Wayne Callies: hmm.

Paul Adelstein: Rson eight asks, what do you think?

What do you think s, why do you think Sarah is drawn towards Michael? No, Sarah, sorry. Go on. Going back, Rson eight asks, what do you think Sarah is drawn towards in Michael and vice versa? What keeps 'em tethered? Through everything you go through. Do you think that if it weren't for the danger of their circumstances in her [00:41:00] father's death.

They would've kept that connection? It's a good question.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's a good question. Um, I mean, I think Sarah starts season two being like, gotta get over this guy. Gotta move on one by one. Things get taken away from her where he becomes her only option. But I think, and I think it happens in this episode and it happens off camera 'cause there's, there's too much other stuff happening.

Uhhuh. But I think she kind of goes, no, I want to be, I, I dunno, I'm torn when she says I need you. There's a part of me Monday morning quarterbacking 20 years later. Yeah. Um, that thinks. She's genuinely like, no, I wanna be with him. And there's another part of me that thinks she's not thinking past

Paul Adelstein: alive.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I need

Paul Adelstein: you to get outta this pickle.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I do. Well, I just need to stay alive and you're the only person I can [00:42:00] trust. And I think what keeps them tethered is that he does become the only person he can trust. She can trust. Mm-hmm. Having betrayed her in. The biggest way, which is, I need you to leave the door open. Um, but I think once she sees that there's something behind that, which is I'm here for my brother.

Paul Adelstein: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: There's proof that he was. You know, once he gets her on side with the evidence on side Yeah. That Lincoln was set up. Um, I think her moral universe kind of collapses into, you know, you've, you've told me What's that? What's that line in, uh, uh, ocean's 11. You're a liar and a thief. I only ever lied about being thief, you know, that's funny.

It's like you lied once and it was big. Um, but it was the only lie.

Paul Adelstein: Everything else has been true. It was the only

Sarah Wayne Callies: lie. Yeah. And the rest, the rest of it, you know, you seem to be the guy. Okay. One last question [00:43:00] to you. From Living Correct. At Living Correct. Which is General Dallas question. Um, just 'cause I know you, uh, did some exploring.

It says, did you ever make it over to Fort Worth for filming or fun local exploration? Yes,

Paul Adelstein: I did. And I really liked Fort Worth. I was shocked at how different it was in Dallas. Yeah. It's really a cowboy town and I went to an amazing. Flea markets. Oh no. And I bought a 1950s or sixties tabletop, huge tabletop phono, phonograph.

It must have been five to six feet long, you know, with speakers in the cabinet lift up and I bought a bunch of records and then when it was time to go back to LA I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna. I know, and it was, you left it, it was like $120. It, it's gotta be worth thousands of dollars. It was really dumb.

Oh my God. Dumb move. I don't know. I, I think I couldn't figure out how to get it back or it was lazy, most likely. Just laziness. [00:44:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: So what did, did you give it to anybody? I did. I

Paul Adelstein: gave it to, I think Derek. Philip since Steve Walters came and got it. I think that's my recollec. Oh, tion. I Maybe I, maybe they may have come gotten other stuff.

I don't know.

Sarah Wayne Callies: They're gonna call you and they're like, that's absolutely enough. I don't, don't, yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Alright. We have a call question this year. Okay. This week

Sarah Wayne Callies: we've got a call in question. Take it away, Paul.

Paul Adelstein: Our calling question this week is, what is your least favorite plot twist of season two so far? What would you change?

For instance, maybe you wish Gary. Hadn't been killed and then said he was somewhere in a casino in Atlantic City where he loses all his money to the mafia and ends up having work for Tony Brando laying the groundwork for the spinoff. The altos hilarious. You'll have

Sarah Wayne Callies: not hilarious, but I just, I did write it this morning and I worked.

It's very funny to read.

Paul Adelstein: Funny. You'll have better ideas. That's, I like it. I like, uh, Gary, becoming an Atlantic City crime boss. We wanna hear your ideas please. What should have been different plot twist wise in season two? We wanna hear them. Leave us a message at 4 0 1 3 p break, or you [00:45:00] can email us at PB podcast at Caliber Studio.

Dot com.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Thank you to all our fishes, folks and friends for listening. Um, as always, we invite you to check out our watch party episodes where you can watch the show with a real time commentary. Yeah. Or just listening to us breathing in your ear. Yeah. '

Paul Adelstein: cause we were, as we watch the show, we were absolutely transfixed this time.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We were actually kind of riveted on this one. Um, and you can join our watch parties on the Patreon link in the show page, wherever you're listening right now. Or on the link in the show's Instagram bio.

Paul Adelstein: Also, uh, for those of you who prefer a language other than English or just wanna see video of us talking, we're on YouTube at Prison Break Podcast on YouTube.

Please join us.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Thanks for being here, guys. Uh,

Paul Adelstein: yes, you're great. Thank you for being with us and as Sarah wrote, it's true, we love and cherish you.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We love and cherish you. I write the script and Paul does the editing. I Sorry. If you don't like what we have to say, it's my fault or the editing because

Paul Adelstein: I'm terrible at it.

So thank you for do it yourself. You're a do it yourself, uh, [00:46:00] operation here. We're

Sarah Wayne Callies: DIYing. Yeah. Um. Hey, you know what, Paul? What? Prison? Breaking with Sarah and Paul is a caliber studio production. Oh

Paul Adelstein: my gosh. Your hosts have been inmates. Yeah. Sarah Wayne Call and Paul Stein.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, that's wild because our prison warden is producer Ben.

Well,

Paul Adelstein: but I want to tell you that the front men of our jailhouse rock band is Paul Edelstein who made the music.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But before you do, let me tell you that our prison yard tattoo artist logo and brand designer designer is John Zito and Little big brands. Check 'em out at www.littlebigbrands.com.

Paul Adelstein: I I can hear that, but I have to tell you.

To follow us on Instagram and YouTube at Prison Break Podcast, email us at pb podcast@calibratestudio.com and call us at four oh one three PB break.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yes, and prison. Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a caliber studio production. Genuinely. Thank you for listening. We're little unhinged this week. Yes.

But we, uh, unhinging stuff. We, we trust you to just hang with us. Wow. Or not that's fine too.

Paul Adelstein: Thank you for being here. Bye. We'll talk [00:47:00] to you soon. Bye.