Maisie: Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast

Andy: Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94.

My name is Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the Private Eye office with Helen

Lewis, Adam MacQueen and Ian Hislop.

Later on in the show we're gonna be talking to Tim Minogue, the Eye's...

I think we can say 'veteran' Rotten Boroughs correspondent about a lifetime

spent looking at dodgy local government, up and down and across the UK.

But for now we're gonna be talking a little bit about... the media, as

we so often do, in particular about how the press has gone a bit bananas

over America and don't quite know what to do now, that the only thing you

can talk about is America all day.

Adam: Day.

Andy: And there are lots of other things happening, but there is quite a lot of,

news about the fact that it's Liberation Week or is it Liberation Week two?

is

Ian: there a tariff on bananas?

I'm, pretty worried by this intro.

Andy: So Adam, you, I'm afraid have to read a lot of The Telegraph.

Adam: I do.

I read a lot of this, but the funniest thing is you see one of

these few things where, the, press are pretty much united on this one.

'cause there's not much to say other than, whoa!

Blimey, and God knows we'll be by the time this actually goes out

in terms of e indexes and things.

But there's a couple of columnists who've had a valiant go.

Simon Jenkins tried to do one of his slightly contrarian pieces where he said,

actually, this might be marvelous, but didn't sound entirely convinced by it.

And,

Andy: Nick Timothy, who's, happens among other things to be fresh ish conservative

mp, he's a telegraph correspondent.

His, piece was saying Trump is exposing the utter incoherence of star's

economic agenda, which I thought was a pretty fresh take to have.

Adam: it's a long sort of way round to do that, isn't it?

It's,

Andy: so there are people trying to fly the flag,

Adam: his colleague Tim Stanley said this morning, we were

recording on Monday morning.

Am I alone in admiring what?

Trump's doing, it was just that rarity, isn't it?

When there's a question mark in a headline, usually the answer is no.

But actually in this case, yes, Tim, I'm afraid You pretty much are.

And even he had to admit, by the end of his fairly lengthy, column

in the Telegraph, that there's, he thinks there's about a 10% chance

that this will all turn out well.

at least Trump's trying to do something.

Helen: It's a sort of systematic problem for columnists really, which is that the

take that is Trump is bad and tariffs are generally agreed by economists to

be a bad idea seems woefully basic.

So you can see people desperately casting round to go, Isn't

there a more exciting way?

And I just feel like we've had this now for the both of the Trump terms

is that lots of columnists have gone.

Hang on a minute.

I know in some ways he looks like an orange fascist, but stop for a

minute and think about whether or not he's the shocker system needs.

And unfortunately he has just a habit of terribly, embarrassing those people.

Andy: Yeah, a lot of your readers will be pensioners, on these papers,

and they pensioners traditionally quite like the value of their pensions

remaining roughly where they are.

Ian: I like the, people who dug up the, Smoot Hawley Tariff Act of 1930,

which again, I thought, this is good.

This is, at least worth a look at.

But, my American friends tell me this used to be taught in American schools as

the worst congressional act ever, which was putting tariffs up to 20% in 1930.

Followed by something they all learned about, which was called the

Great Depression, and which, he's gonna make the depression great

again... as our cartoonist put it.

So great.

it's gonna be the greatest depression ever.

You do have to dig quite deep to find anyone who's got anything

other than... 'oh dear.'

Helen: Elon Musk must have taken a particularly large dose of Kettamine,

because he's, found almost nothing to say about tariffs at all.

He did a, like a sort of video in which he said he hoped that one day there'd be

zero tariffs between Europe and America.

And You're like, yes, but the current policy of the man who's, prime Minister

you're effectively acting for is,

It's 20% tariffs on the EU.

So it's.

very much not that, is it Elon?

Andrew Kaczinski of CNN had this quite good joke, which was basically that Fox

News were desperately casting around for transgender athletes to talk about,

rather than showing like everyone else a ticker of the stock market

just falling the thing that's obvious is that MAGA is a personality cult.

It's not a conventional political movement.

So whatever Dear Leader says today, you have to agree with.

And if in two weeks time he says, actually, I've made incredible deals

with everybody and now I'm calling off the tariffs, then everyone then

immediately has to, it's like proper, like Chemical Ali stuff, right?

It Is, where you just have to agree with the latest thing the

party has told you to believe.

Ian: Here, the, suddenly quite obscure awards events, it's the

Olivier's, the theatre awards for the West End that does not usually make

the front page after the weekend?

This weekend?

Hello?

There's a huge feature on the Olivier Awards and not very much on plunging

stock markets... in particular papers who do not want to cover it.

Adam: It was fascinating 'cause there was a, definitely a thing in, in, in

more right wing papers here of after Trump was unexpectedly reelected, last

November of going, hey, it was that sort of, you talked before about that

bash the hippie thing on the left, but this was if the lefties are unhappy

with this, must be a good thing.

And actually, there were a lot.

Papers were on, very much on board with the, kind of culture warry side

of it, and as you say, bashing trans people and all, that kind of thing.

When it comes to the actual economics of it on, on, newspaper companies that are

listed on stock markets and are, gonna see their shares suffering with everything

else, I think gonna be a very different view of these things, aren't there?

Helen: it?

the absolute worst thing is the fact that lots of people are

affecting any level of surprise.

And I think it speaks to what the problem of Trumpism has been, which is the

assumption that he says batch it things just to get people to vote for him.

But he doesn't really

believe them.

But he has always believed in tariff.

He was talking to Oprah about it in the 1990s, the guy he appointed Peter

Navarro as his trade representative, as seems to have been the one who came up

with this sort of slightly mad formula, where you divide it by penguin and then

add on the number you first, in Guam.

and he said this repeatedly on the campaign trail.

Kamala Harris said repeatedly on the campaign trail, his

policies will make you poorer.

And that you've still got people like, bill Blackman, the venture capitalist,

who suddenly radicalized himself into, supporting Trump 'cause of

university's Palestine protests Suddenly going, I hope cooler heads prevail.

And you're like, no, you elect, the

Andy: you're electing the hot head.

Helen: was Donald Trump.

So it's fascinating

Adam: there has been an effort to present it as well.

He's been saying this for 40 years, as if this was somehow a, a good take on.

And the last person I can remember who hadn't changed their politics for 40 years

was Jeremy Corbin and actually generally said, I, it might be an idea to look

at kind of world events and think about things that have happened in the meantime

and may maybe some evidence, which definitely isn't happening with Trump.

But,

but

Helen: people are bringing up

Brexit now.

Did you hear this sad moment?

Mark Carney's now Prime Minister of Canada saying, look, haven't we

learned something from Brexit that instituting trade barriers is bad?

And I like the fact that we have now become a cautionary tale of

people who committed a mad act of

self harm.

Andy: question.

Well,

Ian: Helen has talked before about how all narratives start to merge now.

so that if you start off talking about tariffs and fairly specific

and you just end up in culture wars and somewhere else, and that's

been very convenient for Trump and.

a, failing of the media and actually to separate the issues and

say, can we talk about this bit?

And then can we talk about this bit?

Because, they're not the same.

Helen: Yeah,

I think that's true.

The Brexit benefit, I think you can argue that Trump is treating us differently,

but that's also to do with the fact that as an individual country, we don't

have a big trade deficit with the us.

And you could argue that our vaccine procurement was actually

a lot more efficient than the eus.

But if you're going to do that, you are going to have to acknowledge

the other half of it, which is that.

Our economy generally would be in a better state if we hadn't unmoored ourselves

from our biggest trading partner.

And that's the bit, the other side of the scale, that I'm not

seeing a lot of, acknowledgement

Andy: We, we found some fantastic floating wood, in the wake of the shipwreck

that we all just put ourselves through.

Yeah.

Adam: The other thing that a lot of our newspapers are doing now

is a transatlantic straddling act.

which is for two reasons, because the expansion of newspapers in

recent years has not been in the form of printed newspapers.

It's been online, and a lot of that has been America.

both the Guardian and the male online have had incredible success over there.

And also the reason that other newspapers are piling in with the,

with a American investment and American facing websites is that you get more

money for advertising over there.

So that's where the growth is.

no one is making any money off advertising on this side of the

Helen: that might solve itself.

'cause the reason is, the adverts on the Atlantic website,

for example, are beautiful.

They're just

that sort of net of portrait and luxury watches.

And I think, God and then I remember that's 'cause Americans

have got a lot of money.

So that may now resolve

Andy: Not anymore.

Yeah.

Adam: But also it means that there's a sort of editorial line about, 'cause the

increasing feeling I get when I read I'm, to bring it back to my, my, my obsession,

the telegraph is that a lot of it is being dictated by kind of reader comments on

there that are not coming from people who we think of as being telegraph readers.

They are coming from people.

Either across the Atlantic who are mad Magis or Russian bots.

Very possibly.

But it's pushing the newspaper in a direction.

I was thinking back 20 years to telegraph as the, the paper of Charles Moore and

Peregrine Worse to people like that.

It's a very different beast now, isn't it?

it looks the same the paper outlet.

But the thing I always thought you could judge The Daily Telegraph I was the reader

offers, which were absolutely accurate.

They knew who their readers were.

It was always shooting sticks or very, nice kind of cast iron garden furniture.

Yeah.

And you look at it now and you just think what paper is out there that is that it,

is selling and repeating the worldview of.

Of the guys in the red chords and the Glas, where have they gone?

Because that's definitely not what the

Andy: the red chords of all I'm afraid have been torn up to make red hats.

Okay.

That's

Adam: enough.

Andy: happened.

Yeah.

Adam: but

Make Cordy great again.

That's where I wanna,

Helen: you can't tell a huge amount about media consumption by the adverts.

Like I'm obsessed with, almost all YouTube podcasts are built

on crypto and supplements

as we previously discussed,

So it's not a surprise that they're all anti-establishment.

And so I think yeah.

There is a very basic economic analysis of British journalism has just become a,

an outcrop of American journalism for, not for ideological reasons, but just

for purely

Adam: but it's literally across the board as well.

the Telegraph newspaper splash a couple of weeks ago was, whether or not Mark Carney,

the new Canadian Prime Minister, had, committed plagiarism in his Oxford degree.

And you just think, this would sell very, well in Canada.

But who actually, especially since the story was kinda shot down in

about the fourth paragraph by someone from Oxford who said, no, this

isn't evidence of plagiarism at all.

It just seemed a very, odd agenda that's gone.

And part of that is down to the fact that paper is completely

rudderless at the moment.

it's.

Been in limbo since when?

How long?

We've been talking about the, the possible sale of the telegraph

Andy: or three years?

Adam: June, 2023 was when?

when it first went on sale was snapped up by Redbird.

I, MI, who still own it.

And the latest twist in that I have to update you is we did a podcast

about him a few months ago and said, farewell Then David Montgomery.

I ended that by warning.

He'll be back.

Don't worry.

He will be back.

Guess what?

He's back.

Potentially he's back in the bidding for the telegraph,

with the help of, Todd Boley.

Am I pronouncing that right?

The, the, owner of Chelsea FC?

they're possibly coming in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Am I looking at my football experts here?

Andy: there is one thing at The Telegraph that is properly consistent though,

in which I think they have shown as a real growth area, and that is headlines

with, a particular phrase in them.

can I just share a few of these with you?

So I thought, Be fair Andy.

only go back, let's say eight weeks or so, just see if you can spot the phrase,

Unless Labour acts first, Britain's growth mission... is doomed to fail.

Labour's plans to drag sick Britain back to work are... doomed to fail.

Labour's benefits cuts plan is doomed to fail.

Europe's coalition of the willing.

Helen: Is it doomed to?

It's

Andy: doomed fail.

It's doomed to.

Starmer's peacekeeping plan: doomed to fail.

Europe's anti- Elon Musk space challenger... quite a

long one... doomed to fail.

Wealth tax... doomed to fail: in the seventies, and also again now.

And I just think this is a really, I think we're gonna be entering a phase

where every other headline in the telegraph and eventually every single

one will, will start with those words.

Adam: but it also demonstrates my point.

The, Telegraph these days just seems to be telling you how awful Britain is.

I get the same feeling whenever I tune into GB news.

It's just telling me that Britain is this awful dreadful

how hellscape where everything is going horribly wrong.

You think you've called cheapy news.

got a union jack in your master.

Are you not supposed to be patriotic?

It's the

Ian: The part of being GB news is talking down Britain

Adam: absolutely is.

Ian: other people of talking it down.

It's essentially an expat's view.

I've always noticed this over the years, you expect that people

who've

chosen not to

live in Britain anymore, but read

the daily Express and drink large amounts of imported, British spirits.

by about midday.

They tend to tell you

that Britain is a terrible place to live.

They wouldn't know, they don't

live there.

Anymore

but they do listen.

and now in increasing to American versions of what

Britain's

Helen: Yes.

Richard Littlejohn was a real pioneer of this in retrospect, wasn't he?

When he took

to Florida to go, it's very rainy in Britain.

I assume,

Ian: Can I ask one question

Adam: then?

Ian: Can

I keep the confusion about buying the telegraph going in the

joke section?

Adam: Oh, that's

not going anywhere.

couple of months.

yeah.

Because the condition that, is obviously very clear from Todd Boley and and

David Montgomery's possible bid is that they ain't gonna pay 500 million,

which is what Redbird IMI want for it now, not unsurprisingly, redbird.

Who you'll remember with the, Arab Emirates backed, consortium who,

bought the Telegraph and then were told that they couldn't have it.

Not surprisingly, they don't get a newspaper for it.

They do at least want their money back, but everyone agrees that they

paid massively over the odds on it.

they, paid 600 million.

they've since made back a hundred million from, Paul Marshall, owner of

GB News as aforementioned who bought the spectator titles, which were part

of the Telegraph group before that.

There's still a 500 million bill, which they are determined to make that, and

this is the problem, is that no one thinks it's worth that no one is willing

to hand the money over and no one can force red put to actually sell it either.

So we are lost in this weird limbo, which even people at the, Charles Moore

described it as being on the house arrest.

Chris Evans, the editor, has talked about the inevitable

sense of drift at the paper.

He seems to have absented himself entirely from editing duties to try

and sort out the future of the paper.

And it's left to his, deputy Robert Win, who's already tried to jump

ship, you might remember last year, and go to the Washington Post.

only for things to blow up there and, that paper to be proved

to be in an even worse state.

Under former telegraph, editor Will Lewis.

so Robert Winnick came, back.

So basically the person that got in charge doesn't even wanna be there.

Ian: our attempts to sell the Telegraph.

Doomed

to fail.

Andy: Right now we're going to turn for our second section of this show, to a

story that deals a lot with America.

Oh, no, we've done it.

We've done it again.

It's

Helen: gonna be Very British.

Very, those eeb speed spiders are gonna get mention.

Andy.

Andy: Okay, let's talk about abundance Helen, What is it?

Helen: this is a new book that is out from New York Times columnist ASRA Klein

and my Atlantic colleague Derek Thompson.

Which is about basically picking an argument with liberals about the

fact that if you look in America at blue states and blue cities,

it's really hard to build anything.

Ezra Klein is originally from California, so this is their big flagship example.

They've been trying to build high speed rail in California

for what, like a decade now.

Oh, To more than that.

and it's really hard.

I was in San Francisco, it's where I wrote my, IUSI column from, and

it is almost impossible to build, a public affordable housing there.

the cost per unit is about 700 to $800,000.

And why is that?

there's a load of things.

There's very tight construction unions.

Which won't even let you build modular housing.

when you get bits that are pre-packed, even though those factories are

unionized, they're really against that.

There are environmental regulations.

There are in America, there is zoning, which has an explicitly racist history.

Most of zoning comes from wealthy white families who don't want houses

of multiple occupation, which they think will be filled with minorities.

so you know, all of these things that look like they're left wing principles,

the idea that you'd have kind of quotas in the construction industry, all of

that, everything gets kinda hung on.

New buildings and infrastructure S there are kind of Christmas tree, essentially.

Like all of these things that individually are quite good ideas, like strong

environmental protections, strong worker protections, social justice initiatives.

But the end result is that people are still living under bridges 'cause there

aren't any homes or whatever it might be.

Or people are still in their cars, belching out fossil fuels.

So they're basically at an interesting moment for the Democratic

party while it's basically.

Sobbing in its room

alone.

trying to say, look, wouldn't it be great if we had this A positive vision for what

we could offer to people that is not just about us stopping stuff getting done?

And so Stan was really into this and it's interesting 'cause it comes I think mostly

outta the YIMBY movement, the Yes in my backyard movement, which in Britain and

America has been much more cross partisan.

So this is fascinating.

It's a political tendency that takes in everyone from.

Aaron Busi

Of luxury automated communism now all the way through to a Sam Bowman who

used to be at the Adam Smith Institute.

So there is a cross party consensus in both Britain and America.

It's much too hard to build new rail lines.

It's much too hard to build new housing.

And we've ended up with this sort of sense that things are stuck

Ian: But this is, this is followed by, shall we deregulate everything?

Helen: that's the problem.

Why?

And that's why they've explicitly addressed this to the left because

there is a part of the, left liberal space that just instantly hears this and

thinks what you are is like someone from the kind of, was it pro and chained?

Was

that terrible?

The book from Liz Trusts and quasi Quaye, saying, which is basically

let's make it really easy to fire people and send children up chimneys.

Yeah.

Or the kind of Elon Musk do agenda, which is, why don't I just go into government

and smash everything with a hammer?

then try and put together something much smaller afterwards.

This is

Ian: Dominic Cummings too.

Yes.

We can't entirely blame it

on,

the

American, do you think, but if it started in the States, is it coming here?

Is Starer gonna go with this?

Helen: It's already come here.

If you listen to what, starer says, he says, we want builders, not blockers.

He has explicitly referenced the EBS fleet spiders, which are for those.

of you not

intimately

familiar.

team.

With the distinguished

jumping spider, which is my favorite thing about them.

They're distinguished, like they've got little monocles and hats

anyway,

so they've been trying for a really long time to build more housing

around EBS Fleet train station, which would be 17 minutes into London.

Brilliant.

Natural England has designated some of the area around the station a site

of special scientific interest, and that prevents about something like

about a thousand houses being built.

It nukes the whole plan essentially.

And The reason they've done this is that they've found this colony of

distinguished jumping spiders there, and also a lot of water beetles.

Now, the kind of YIMBYs say, these only moved in because you've left

this land derelict for so long.

basically the way it works is if you're a A wango like, natural

England, you don't have to take any kind of balancing account, right?

It is the same thing with a bat tunnel.

You know, that they, don't put a value on the life of a spider versus.

All the people who will then use the train, who will get to live in a house,

all the people who won't use their car, which will improve air quality, which

will help all spiders and So the problem is you have all these individual agencies

that have their very narrow remit, which they execute really well, but they don't

have to take into consideration any kind of se like checks and balances.

Andy: job is not to make HS two happen,

Helen: I just find myself incredibly sympathetic to it because which, we just

can't build housing in this country.

It's been a real problem because all of, I had this rant before, the voices

of all the people who'd like housing are not represented in the system.

To the extent that the who already have housing

Ian: are, we just hear the developers.

Yeah.

And then we hear the objectives.

We never hear.

A queue of people saying, I would like a house.

Andy: Yeah.

it's, it is impossible to, hear the views of people who would've got a house but

now won't 'cause they don't know it.

Helen: There's another

really good example, which is the Mata food Market around Elephant and Castle.

Are you familiar with this?

And it, talks to the bias in how the reporting on this goes, which is, it's

all being reported as Beloved Food Haul to be demolished to make way for houses.

Actually, what's happening is that was a site that has been, they've

been trying to redevelop since 2016.

And Because it was otherwise gonna sit derelict.

They said, why don't you come and put these temporary

pop-up food market into it?

So now what happens is they've been again, yeah, advantageous business rates,

for example, they'll have to move out for a couple of years and then they'll,

in

the scheme, they are there to, at the end of it, they'll move back in.

But you'll also have 900 homes of which 300 are affordable or social housing.

But all the reports in like the standard, the B, C are all

food hall to be demolished.

Ian: we, like a beloved tradition

that goes back

to

last week

2016.

Andy: and it's fantastic.

the, quotes you get out of people who don't want something to

happen are invariably better.

I read a report in the papers last week of this, projected Soler farm will turn

our village into a concentration camp.

And I thought, steady on will it the phrase that gets used is a veto where

lots of people get a veto, whether they're people who live in the area and, Naturally

don't want it to change, or whether it's the, I think it's up to 27 bodies.

You might have to consult depending on whether you are near a cricket pitch

or whether you are near some jumping spiders or, whatever it might be.

There's

Helen: a bill currently going through the commons to put swift bricks.

Have you heard of a swift brick?

Ian: is a tribute to a popular singer.

Helen: Yes.

a Taylor Swift brick in

Adam: a popular satirist?

I think they're Jonathan Swift.

They're named after Yes.

Ian: God,

I'm For it.

Helen: it's

Jonathan Swift Can Nessun in your house.

as you always wanted.

no, but this is the idea that we want to encourage Swifts to Nessun.

So shouldn't there be a regulation that says every new House building

has gotta have a swift brick in it.

And already, Brighton has this four buildings over a certain number of,

stories told as well as bee bricks for solitary bees, which I have

to say every time I say the first solitary bee, it makes my heart

break.

I

Andy: a lot of them ran in cells.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Helen: Try the honey.

so Brighton has had these regulations for a while, having a lot of green

counselors, and this bill has been introduced by a green mp.

And the problem is that he had a professor, Quoting the guardian

in 2022 saying if you don't clean out the B bricks, the a, the holes

aren't deep enough for the BS.

And also they can get infested with mites out competed.

So it's not like you can just put a B brick in and job done.

There needs to be a whole kind of suite of B brick maintenance

that you'd have to, do.

and I presume probably the same thing is the.

is true of the swift bricks, but there is this assumption that you can have,

single things that can be added onto building regulations with zero cost.

But actually what you're doing is just adding hurdle and hurdle

and maybe, we should have some nationwide swift encouragement.

initiative.

Ian: What's the

theory allow For civil action as opposed to state action.

So does it say we should all put thrift boxes in because there's

a campaign to do it, not because.

it's legally required.

This is your Christmas tree metaphor, isn't it?

Yeah.

there's too many ball balls.

It's gonna fall over.

Helen: I think That's the thing.

It's about where the point of action is.

And the abundance agenda is about, we need to remove barriers.

We need to have a much more of a focus on outcomes.

And this is where they would say that

they distinguish themselves from,

Elon Musk or, his Trust.

Their end outcome is they want a greener future, for example, they want to

decarbonize the economy, but in order to do that, you cannot say that every

single vol along the high speed rail track is gonna have to be preserved.

You are always letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

It's a really big challenge and I think I've certainly change my

thinking on it because you're right.

It is a fundamentally right wing hobby horse, the idea of deregulation.

But I don't think you can look at the British property development and

housing market and say, what a triumph for the left this is, haven't we got

incredibly green homes and everything is working out really fantastically.

Andy: I think there's one really interesting thing, which is that there

hasn't been a big national infrastructure upgrade for quite a while now.

So one of the more recent ones was switching from, , coal gas which

was in the sixties really, and that shifted over from a much dirtier

source of fuel to a relatively clean, that's still fossil fuel one, but

that involved a, great deal of change.

The government had to take out a lot of adverts in newspapers

saying, you are being switched over.

This is going to be better.

But that was a long time ago, and I think people have forgotten that the state has

the capacity to do that kind of thing.

And the, state also feels like it doesn't quite know.

But the new planning and infrastructure bill, just to bring it back to

what's being done here, does have a lot of quite, good measures.

If you like this kind of thing, if you, don't, you'll hate it.

But,

Helen: yeah.

If you were going to write this book in the uk, the people really you'd

wanna challenge with the liberal

Democrats,

Because the liberal Democrats have a huge variety of very worthy

environmental and social aims.

But what they mostly run campaigns on in each constituency is

don't build any new houses here.

And that's the, kind of A constituency who are being

addressed by this abundance agenda.

the right already might believes in deregulation in a various number of

ways, but it's people who want these particular outcomes saying that actually

you are your local interests are often acting against the things you claim to

believe at the wider national level.

Andy: the argument is always, yeah, but I'll definitely,

renewable, but not, here, not this.

no, Try over there.

Try those bastards over there in the next village.

they could, Yeah.

but we used

to,

Ian: that, Britain was alone incapable of doing this.

this isn't

Andy: yeah, absolutely.

Ian: And that France was marvelous And that the French National,

interests would always override.

So they're railways marvelous.

'cause they don't care what

anyone says.

nukes everywhere.

Nukes everywhere.

suburbs, wherever they feel like, it.

I'm guessing this argument was never terribly true.

but are we now saying Britain is worse than America?

Helen: I think there's a big difference between blue states and red states.

So the obvious differences between California and Texas, which are very close

to each other, and Austin, where I was last year, actually went through a phase

where imagine this house prices dropped.

They said It could never happen.

they have recovered again, but they were actually at one point building

enough houses for all the people who wanted a house to live in one.

Imagine such a thing.

And the building, this is weird thing about this from your perspective is

Texas is building a load of renewable.

energies Just because you can get government subsidies to build renewable,

but the only place you can actually build them are in red states that

have very loose planning places.

So you ended up with all this weird green investment going into

places that don't really believe in

Andy: it.

It's not surprising at all.

It's cheap, And the housing thing, the brilliant move the lots of cities

in Texas have made on housing is.

They have instituted a rule where you can change your single massive,

the Simpsons style home, as long as it doesn't go over a certain height,

you can turn that into, I think it's up to six flats, and that means you

get six families living on one spot.

And unless you're in a, very, unusual conservation area or anything, that

bit of deregulation has happened and it massively increases housing

density, which is what you want near, say, places like train stations.

You know the place to have your dense housing is near

those bits of infrastructure.

and that's, what they've done.

Helen: Yeah.

But the, that again goes back to the kind of racist history

of zoning in America because.

what The people who've been blocking those kind of conversions are people

who say, we don't want, students or low income people living in our,

They'll change the character of the

Andy: Her Nudge.

Nudge.

yeah, Which

Helen: Which is often a somewhat of a dog whistle as you might imagine,

Andy: So

is it gonna work?

Are we gonna get abundance here, Helen?

Helen: the interesting thing is Angela Rena does seem to be doing a lot of stuff.

She's called in a lot of projects, that have been blocked

by local planning developers.

I, think it would unequivocally be.

A good thing.

I think it's, there's a huge amount of resistance to it from very, from now

interest, which I, individually are usually things that I support, but I think

we have got an acute, if you think about the fact of, the wages have stagnated

in the last 20 years, but housing has become multiple times more expensive.

That is just not a sustainable situation for a, democracy.

and you talked about France, and interestingly enough, if you look

on places like TikTok, obviously owned by Chinese parent company.

You will see American influences going to China and going, oh my God,

you've got a train that runs through a building, and like they put this city

up and it wasn't here five years ago.

And so what people are getting are a lot of CCP propaganda because it's if you

were 13 in China, you could buy a house.

And obviously if you were 13 in China, you also couldn't

criticize the beloved leader that,

may also be case in America too,

See,

Adam: it does also strike me as being one of the things that, I always

feel with this Labour government that just what are they for?

New

Helen: Towns and like expansion and opportunities and a

country that's growing again.

Tony said, I wanna make Britney Young country again.

And I think that, again, that's, an actually an optimistic vision, which isn't

what we've had from Starr so far, which is we've caught no money and everything's

terrible.

Which may

be true, but

Ian: it's,

a good opener.

But I feel

you've,

then gotta

move on along a bit.

does sound a bit that Home ownership.

Adam: I'm sure ki will go for it then in that case, won't it?

Helen: But, or

Yeah.

Even the.

idea that Actually, renting doesn't take up half of your disposable income.

I think that's the point.

I think we have a, country that is in a rent, specifically a renting crisis.

Andy: the recent story of a Labour MP who had to the scandal was Labour

MP has charged 900 quid for her.

cat, I think it was, no, it was Cockapoo dog.

Sorry.

actually it was that she rents somewhere in London and her landlord

has charged her another a hundred quid a month to have a dog in the home,

which, she's allowed to claim 'cause she needs to rent a place in London

'cause it's not near her constituency.

Ian: But the story was very much sold as how outrageous.

for the mp.

Whereas you read it as this rent

Andy: landlord.

Yeah, exactly.

can I give you one last example of the, of what this reminded me of this

Christmas tree thing of yours, Helen?

Yeah.

because that in the Bri in Britain gets called everything is as well.

That's the other term that gets

given to it, is

Ian: Everything is them.

Andy: there is, the bad news is like, trains have to be good for

bats, can't they just be good for trains, as you were saying?

And what it really reminded me of is bleak house.

there's a character in that, Mrs. Jelly Bee.

Yes.

Who has a She has a cause.

And the cause is Boria Bula, Gar, which is that she wants everyone, she

wants to move poor Londoners basically to Africa, where they will grow

coffee and that'll solve everything.

And she has got one cause in life and.

it overwhelms everything else in her life.

And when her daughter gets married, she says, what am I gonna do for a

secretary with my Boria boli scheme?

And she has a load of gruesome friends who all also have one cause

and cannot see anything outside it.

I think that was Dickens predicting in a way, the way the internet allows

people to radicalize themselves.

he's writing about the way that people can get really sucked into

something and lose all perspective.

But at the same time, how do you balance that with the need to have people who know

a lot about a subject being enthusiastic, wanting to get things over the line,

you

Ian: in, his own case, I mean he was an

advisor to various

philanthropists on

charity, including the Bette Cos who was the most

richest woman in Britain and.

I once read a list of his charities out at a, in the attempt to

make People give some

money, and he supported just

about everything.

Oh, really?

Okay.

Andy: Oh, really?

Okay.

He

was

Ian: the opposite of that character.

And he was Phenomenally well informed.

She also is very, uncaring about her own children.

Andy: un

Ian: which is another point he was making about people who are

very, keen on single Charities.

Helen: Yeah, I think that's where I've landed on it, is that there's nothing

wrong with having environmental charities or Quang goes who care about their

specific things, but they should be invited to input into something where

there is some level of overall sight.

That's where we come to with the bat tunnel.

Right.

If I gave you a hundred million pounds to make life better for

British bats would you spend it on.

Like a bat reserve, that'd be adorable.

Or would you spend it on a, tunnel that we don't think even necessarily works

next to a place where we don't know if the bats even are, and that's the problem.

Is that for, each individual actor in this, they only have one set of interests.

What government is supposed to do is balance a range of interests against each

Adam: each other.

So what you're saying we need is some sort of equation or formula, aren't you?

Which would balance, bat lives against human lives and homes and he's really good

at coming up with equations or formulas.

No, We could ask Donald to have

a go.

Couldn't we

Andy: Now for the second half of today's podcast, we have a little bit of sad news,

which is that Tim and Oog friend of this podcast and the man who has been writing

the Rotten Boroughs page all about local council fraud and waste and mismanagement

and corruption for the last 26 years.

Tim very sadly, is retiring from full-time duties on the rotten boroughs page.

He'll still be contributing plenty, but he's stepping back

from that particular beat.

And so this is a little bit of a victory lap for Tim.

It's about some of the greatest stories he's ever covered.

It's about what he thinks council should be doing.

It's about why you only seem to see stories about councils being

completely broke these days.

so here's Tim.

I started off by asking him which stories he was most proud of having covered.

Tim: I suppose it's a rather strange one, and it's the story of, a publican called.

Jeff Monks, who was, persecuted, by the former East Northampton

District Council, which is no more.

his pub was called The Snooty Fox.

he had.

A row with a customer who claimed he had brought her the wrong bottle of wine.

And, he said to her, it didn't, don't, doesn't seem to have stopped you.

Drinking it madam.

And things got a bit heated.

She was barred from the pub.

then found himself being prosecuted by the local council

for having, served at moldy ham.

it was alleged.

by him that the customer, had a, social relationship, at least

with the leader of the council.

or

Had friends on the council, at any rate.

this, resulted in this vindictive prosecution so in 1999 there was a court

case at which magistrates imposed fines and costs totaling nearly, 32,000 pounds.

monks couldn't pay that he hadn't got it.

It was the largest amount for any offense such offense ever

brought against the sole trader.

So he, got banged up in prison for two months, he won at a

retrial of that case in 2015.

and then there were two other prosecutions against him, evidence, one mouse

sighting and one cracked pane of glass.

they were quashed on appealing as far back as 2003.

And the judge noted the curious fact that out of 7,000 inspections of food premises.

carried out by the council.

Over 10 years, only four had resulted in prosecutions, three

of which were against Jeff Monks.

I'm proud that we stayed with the story and it's in in that tradition that

private Eye has of nagging away at things.

And so we returned to this story many times but the credit

really goes to the tenacity of.

Mr. Monks or Dr. Monks as he now is, And in, 2022, he, he finally won an

apology from North Ants Council, the successor of East North Ants and, was

awarded a very large sum of money.

we think about 4 million pounds.

which is less than he said he had lost From losing his three pubs.

Three.

businesses.

But, I'm pretty pleased about that one.

I do the sort of human frailty stuff.

And, The

Tory Cabinet Minister for Economic Development at Eden

District Council in Cumbria.

Who, we exposed in 2016 'cause he'd attended, a

Buckingham Palace Garden Party.

he's very proud of his services to industry ob he'd got earlier.

but in fact he owed more than half a million pounds in unpaid tax

to HMRC

And,

Andy: could have paid it there, and then he did.

He was with

Tim: He got, we gave him the cucumber sandwich award He did a thing which

is quite instructive, which is, people often tell their local paper that,

they're suing private eye and they're going to take us to the cleaners and

all that sort of thing, which the local papers usually dutifully report but of

course no legal letter is, forthcoming.

Andy: You've heard of it?

Yeah.

And I should say, for many years you've been doing the Rotten Boroughs awards.

At the start of each new year, you sum up.

the greatest examples of misbehavior that have crossed your desk in

the previous year, and it's always an absolute highlight of the, the

years privat imy is that page of, just extraordinary malpractice

Tim: we try and have a bit of fun.

with it 2018, we gave the award of services to the ars.

Yes, you did hear that.

And CRO and council, which was Labour at the time They contributed 10 grand

and provided, the venue for an arts festival, which featured performance

inserting butt plugs And it was intended to demystify the anus, while others

consumed laxatives and diuretics until they lost control of their sphincters.

It wasn't in person as it were, but There were microphones

there so you could, oh gosh.

You, You could hear the results.

Andy: Is this connected to CRO and now being the most bankrupt council

Tim: It went in the debit, in the debits.

Andy: part of that

billion quid they owe Now.

Is that

Tim: didn't it?

Andy: but we've all demystified the anus now, maybe it was worth it.

Tim: we had a vintners award in 2012 for a man councilor Shira hack.

also known as the Brick Lane Curry King.

Who had bankrolled the successful election campaign of Tower Hamlet's?

Mayor looked for Ramen.

in 2010,

Andy: old friend of, the Rotten Boroughs page.

Tim: A great friend.

and Where would we have been without,

it?

empty.

columns.

But anyway, councilor Hark, lost his.

premises license after the, his own council's trading standards.

Department caught him selling cheap Italian plunk in his

restaurants, relabeled as top quality Australian Shiraz.

Andy: The nice thing is it's all of this is Human behavior is very

much like the definition, isn't it?

Vice folly and Homburg of, what satire is meant to expose.

And it's all in this page, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's

Tim: It's all

Andy: people being naughty and normally you finding out about it.

Tim: expenses are always.

An issue.

And, in 2018 we had the expenses King of the Year, a chap called Nathan Elvery, who

was the new Chief executive of West Sussex County Council, and he accepted a 47 and

a half thousand pound permanent relocation allowance, for moving to Chichester.

but we found out, He hadn't moved out of his home in Surrey where he'd been

living for the previous 12 years.

Oh my goodness.

I think that sealed his fate and he, had to go after a while.

And then some of the other ones we've done aren't so funny.

But I'm still proud.

We did, like last year, we exposed the then conservative leader of

West Northamptonshire Council,

Who,

was a serial wife beater.

going back over, 30 years, his,

his first wife had tried to bring this to the attention of the counselors.

And one counselor, one independent counselor bravely tried to bring

this up at a council meeting and was shut down officers, by the legal

officer and the chief executive.

we got hold of this story and we published it and the local BBC did a

very good report, following up where they interviewed all these women on camera

and the guy stood down as the council leader, but having a lot of brass neck.

he stayed on as a Tory counselor and he only quit as a Tory counselor.

After the then local MP one.

Andrea lead some, to her.

Great, credit, Said.

come on.

This isn't on.

but he went to last, Christmases, north an Tory party.

Lots of cheers slapping on the back, and he still sits as a counselor.

Andy: Does that indicate there's a problem with accountability?

Tim: I, you might, say that.

another one.

from the same part of the world, earlier this year, we found out that a senior

Tory, counselor called Matt Binley, had admitted to his Tory colleagues.

Having had, underage sex, he wasn't underage.

the young woman concerned was when he had been a police

officer back in 2008 or 2009.

And it just occurs to me there that three of these stories, the wife

beater, the underage sex man and, the persecutor of, Jeff Monks, the publisher.

were all, it was, they were all from Northamptonshire.

Now, what do we make of that?

Andy: It's, it is just extraordinary, Tim, the number of councils and the number of

stories you, print each issue about the entire length and breadth of the country

and the bad behavior that goes on in each of them, or the mismanagement, all of it.

one thing we've talked about on the podcast before is when

councils start their own.

Energy company or start their own like Robin

housing

companies, energy companies, wars, I think there was a water Cup.

Just all sorts of these things and then it goes slightly wrong and then

they end up in the whole, financially there's a big problem isn't there?

With councils not having the money they need and then doing slightly.

Risky things like this in an attempt to make that money

back and, deliver services.

Tim: they are in desperate financial straits a few years ago.

there was a craze for selling stuff off.

You sell off buildings, sell off, land.

which of course, once you've sold the family silver, you, that's it.

so some of them have had, the bright idea, and on paper, it's not too bad.

Why sell, 10 acres to a developer who's then going to give you a fixed

sum for that And, Make a, ton of money out of building houses on it.

the sensible thing might be considered to, cut out the middleman, but as we have

found in, Croydon, which, it drove the council into bankruptcy and Cambridge

Council is having, similar problems now.

you've suddenly discovered that housing developers and builders, they

actually know what they're doing.

And if you haven't got the, the expertise in house, it's, we,

can't all be experts in everything.

And, in just the report from, their auditor's, KPMG, talking about

Cambridge here, couple of weeks ago, the auditors said the council does

not have the suitable skills and experience to effectively manage the

risks associated with Their commercial private sector subsidiary, cause

they have a wholly owned building company called This Land which is now.

scores of millions of pounds in debt.

they got into the absurd situation where this land wasn't making enough

money on its projects to repay the interest on the loans they had

from Cambridge account council.

So they borrowed.

More money from Cambridge account Council in order to

repay the interest on the loans.

you know that, that's not good.

why is that?

it?

It's, not corruption.

It's certainly incompetence in some form or another, but you could say being

charitable that they've been driven to desperate measures by the fact that they

are in the financial crisis that all councils are to one degree or another,

and that is being caused by the parsimony of central government over many years.

Andy: I think we've probably got to the end now, Tim, and I'm very sorry.

And I'm also very irritated because I'm thinking of all the dodgy counselors up

and down the country who will sleep a little easier in their beds as you won't

be on the rotten bearer's face anymore.

Tim: I hope not because I hope the page will continue on Of course.

And go from strength to strength.

Andy: Okay.

That's it for this episode of page 94.

Thank you so much for listening.

Thanks to Ian, Helen, Adam, and to Tim.

Of course.

We'll be back again in another fortnight with another episode.

And just to remind you, we have a live show coming up at the

Cambridge Literature Festival email podcast at Private hyphen eye.

Dot co uk send us your questions, your burning questions about

anything you want to know.

As long as it's about the news in some shape or form, we would love to

answer them and we'll be answering them live on stage in Cambridge.

Andrew: it's sold out in the room, but you can buy a streaming ticket if

you like listening to this podcast.

But you think it needs to be more visual.

Andy: You can get tickets, by going to the Cambridge Literature Festival website.

The show is called Page 94.

If you didn't know that already until then, please go and buy

a subscription to the magazine.

Thanks to you for listening, and thanks to Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing.

Bye for now.