Shravan Joshi ===

Salvatore: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of the Concilio Better Places podcast, where we explore the latest from planning, politics, and development. In this episode, account director Luke Tatin sits down with SRA and Joshi, chairman of the Planning and Transportation Committee at the City of London Corporation for a deep dive into the square mile future.

They cover the recent Common Council elections, the ambitions of City Plan 2040, and how sustainability, culture and infrastructure will shape the years ahead with insight into emerging policy, digital planning, and the next generation of talent and investment. We hope you do enjoy this episode of The Better Places Podcast.

Luke Tatton: Welcome to another episode of Concilio Better Places podcast. I'm Luke Tatin, an account director at concilio. And today we have a fantastic guest, Shravin Joshi, chairman of the Planning and Transportation Committee at the City of London Corporation with fresh [00:01:00] election results, updates on the Draft City Plan 2040, a major investment in FinTech and offices.

There's plenty to cover, so let's dive in. Rahan, welcome to the podcast.

Shravan: Thanks, Luke. Thanks for having me, uh, on your podcast today and, uh, big warm welcome to all your listeners.

Luke Tatton: Fantastic. Let's start with something fresh in your memory, the City of London, local elections. What are your thoughts on the newly elected common council and what it means for the future of the city?

Shravan: Yeah, so we, we've just come out of, uh, local elections, across the square mile. We have this very odd. electoral base where we have, uh, businesses voting alongside residents in the square mile. and so workers of the city have a vote, have a say in who their elected representatives are. Yeah.

And so we had 11 of the 25 wards contested, in this round of elections. And yeah, I think there's been quite a good turn, uh, turnover of members. Uh, we had a few retirees as well along the way. As you'd normally expect, but a nice new fresh body of counselors [00:02:00] to, induct into the corporation.

Luke Tatton: And I think there's 25% of new common counselors who are elected. How do you think this level of change will affect planning decisions and how steep is the learning curve for new members joining the Planning and Transportation Committee?

Shravan: So our planning and transportation committee is what we call ward committee.

So of all the 25 wards, everyone, puts forward members to join planning and transportation. the large awards have, two spaces, small awards have one, and so we have a committee of about 30 people. so yes, we will have a change in the makeup of the committee. I would expect it to roughly be proportionate to the turnover of counselors.

So perhaps a 25% turnover across that. But, you never know. What that will look like. But I expect around that sort of change. and we always have an annual change in the makeup of planning and transport. 'cause it's an annually elected, uh, role from the wards. And so, um, yes, I'm looking forward to seeing what the new committee wants to achieve.

Luke Tatton: And speaking of new [00:03:00] members , your tenure as chairman of the Planning and Transportation Committee is coming to an end. Can you give us any insight on who might be stepping into the role next?

Shravan: Yeah. So look, it is an elected position. I'm not gonna, suggest who might be, uh, leading or not in that race.

But, um, I, I think there are a couple of characteristics that, um, we should be mindful of when we are looking at, at who leads on planning and transportation. I think if I look back at my tenure, I think sustainability. And culture were probably the two major bits of work that probably caught most people's attention and which probably need further clarification and development going forward.

So I think if we bear that in mind, that will help bring out the best people who have those kind of skills and experiences in their life, to come forward as chair.

Luke Tatton: So a focus on sustainability and culture. Any other advice that you'd like to give your success on?

Shravan: Uh, [00:04:00] I, I think working with your neighbors is always good advice.

Uh, I mean, look, the square mile is not a bubble. We can't exist on our own. We need, uh, good transport infrastructure in and outta the square mile. You know, we say, we always quote this number of 678,000 workers commuting in and outta the city. Well, those people live in the southeast. I. Of England. And so we need to have good, affordable transport, uh, from the inner city and from outer London into the square mile.

And so it's really important that we bear that sort of infrastructure piece in mind. Um, I, I think working with our neighbors, as I said, is really important, making sure that we, we are part of that ecosystem of the ca a z across London that we are. You know, a, a material part of the London plan that's gonna happen

Next year. and I think, you know, if you look at the growth plan that was announced just a few weeks ago by Howard Doba, and Sadik, actually to me, the city absolutely embodies that growth plan. And you know, to me the city [00:05:00] plan that's going through now is a really good kind of, um, bin document with that growth plan that I think will show our success in the future.

Luke Tatton: And with the newly shaped common council, let's talk about that long-term vision, the draft City Plan 2040, which will define the future of the square mile. For listeners who might not be familiar, can you explain what the City Plan 2040 is and why it matters? This?

Shravan: Sure. So the city Plan 2040, as we call it, is effectively our local plan.

It is our vision of what we want the built environment to deliver, uh, up to from now until 2040. that's the intent. And that covers several chapters. It covers chapters from tall buildings, clusters through to heritage, through to culture. Through to infrastructure, through to housing a whole bunch of different, uh, chapters, pillars, I suppose, make up that local plan.

What we've tried to do with this plan [00:06:00] is be as skeletal as possible. So the idea is that the plan is a framework. And then off the back of that framework, we then hang specific policy SPDs and specific policy strategies that will come through between now and 2040. That's the intent, and I think the reason we did that was so that we can bring industry and development along with us.

But we're also able to respond to market forces. And so having that sort of framework local plan, I think is, is the right way to go. Um, it's a relatively short document actually. If, if you look at most local plans, they're sort of users door wedges. Actually, this one is, is is quite a thin local plan in terms of the content, but the framework it sets out is, is very, very important.

Luke Tatton: So is having a broader but perhaps thinner framework, something that makes this. More distinct from previous city plans?

Shravan: Yes, I think it does. And I think the way that we've focused in on specific pillars also sets [00:07:00] us, you know, in a distinct way from what we've done in the past. I think it gives us a focus around the narrative to say, actually, if we're gonna talk about heritage, this is where, this is what we want to protect.

This is how we want to protect it, and this is how that interfaces with the other pillars of the plan. That have equal weighting and importance. And, and so you create a, a wholesome document that still has frictions in it, but actually they're embedded into that framework.

Luke Tatton: Yeah . And

Where are we in that process and what happens next?

Shravan: Sure. So we actually, uh, went through a whole round of, committee approvals within the city. So it was approved by planning and transportation Last year. It was approved by policy and resources. It was then approved by the Court of Common Counsel at that point, it becomes a public document that goes out to the inspector, to the Secretary of State, um, and they hold a series of examinations in public eip ps those began last week.

So we had our first round of eip [00:08:00] ps last week. Uh, we've had two inspectors, coming to Guild Hall. And they will take soundings from interest of stakeholders who can, request to speak, to the inspectors, and of course, the city making its representations as well to defend the plan. Um, that started last week.

It's gone very well. so far, I've gotta say I gave the opening statement, to kick that off and really set out our pro-growth agenda, and to say very, very clearly to the inspectorate that. You know, unashamedly, the city is pro-growth. It's pro economic growth and we have to deliver that not just for our own micro good, but actually for the good of London and for the good of UK PLC.

Luke Tatton: The city is often called the engine of London. I think that, like you say, in this plan, having the growth for that engine is really important part of it. What excites you most about what the city plan can deliver for the square mile?

Shravan: So, to me, I. If I, if, and, and you'll have seen as well, you'll have [00:09:00] seen various, images produced that, that create this sort of cluster.

You know, the cluster is now matured and you've got, a sort of a, a more wholesome body along the skyline that you can define as the city skyline. I think that would be something spectacular to see realized. Um, against that backdrop, you've then got. You know, the heritage assets like St. Paul's that we really want to protect and make sure they're enlivened.

Um, and there's a whole lighting strategy actually that's going on in St. Paul's that I think in the next few years we're gonna see that monument, just to celebrate it in such a different, fabulous way. I also expect the plan to deliver much more clarity and precision around the way we go around delivering cultural activations in the city.

So to date, when you look at the way we've delivered opportunities for different groups of people to enjoy the square mile, it's been done very much by a developer led solution. Right. [00:10:00] Um, or it's, it's circumstantial. You know, we've discovered some Roman ruins and we're gonna celebrate that.

I think what we are developing now in the city is a cultural strategy framework as a separate piece of work. And I think that will start to feed into the way that. The city fabric looks and feels from a cultural perspective,

Luke Tatton: how is that gonna be different from previous cultural strategies?

I'm thinking of things like Destination City, even though that might have a slightly wider remit, uh, culture mile, which then evolved into a bid. So how are you envisioning this culture framework within the city plan, uh, to be distinct and developed?

Shravan: Look, they all have to work together. Uh, I mean I've, I've probably got a, uh, a couple of archive rooms full of strategies for the city corporation.

they all have to work together. They all have to intertwine. So when we talk about Destination City, for example, to me that is an overarching growth strategy for the square mile. Right. And so any cultural activation we do, any cultural strategy we deliver has to work with [00:11:00] Destination city, hand in hand.

Um, any sort of placemaking, we do any sort of, retail ground floor activation that we do has to work hand in hand with destination city. These things can't be done in isolation, and that's where I think the local plan, you know, go, sort of closing that circle. The local plan kicks in because it provides that framework to say, look, all these bits have to work together.

If we're gonna create a wholesome city,

Luke Tatton: and I think we've touched on it slightly before, but your tenure as chairman has also seen a really active period in policy development. We've had sustainability, SPD, the lighting, SPD, the whole lifecycle, carbon auctioneering planning advice note, bit of a mouthful as well as some more.

Was this proactive approach something you deliberately set out to achieve, or did it evolve organically?

Shravan: So. I think I would love to say it was all part of the big plan and we knew exactly what we were doing on day one. And here you go. Here's the series of specific policies [00:12:00] that have emerged from it.

I think some of it is organic. Um, if I go back to when I first joined planning in 2018, when I was elected into the corporation, everyone was talking about how to. Manage that carbon narrative against the backdrop of future development. And I think it was conversations like that with groups like the CPA, with stakeholders, with developers, with investors, and with politicians and offices that's organically grown into some of those sustainability SPDs and I think.

I think we've done the right thing by doing it in an organic way, in a collaborative way, because you've then got pragmatic policies. I think the risk is if you start making these kinds of policy frameworks in isolation or as if I, you know, if I use the word in in its [00:13:00] cynical way as it's too planned, actually you run the risk of it not being deliverable.

And I think what we've done in having that sort of pragmatic policy piece around sustainability is it's, it's been achievable, it's staged. So there is no, no desire to impinge on growth whilst we deliver sustainability, which is why we focused very much initially on operational carbon and said, look, we can quantify this, we can baseline it, and we can work from there to deliver operational net zero.

And we said, all right, that's now been acceptable by the market. Now let's tackle the harder bit the embodied carbon. And if you look at the latest sustainability SPD that came out at the end of the year, which really tackled embodied carbon and how we measure that, and the kind of discussions and debate that we want with officers at a very, very early stage of pre-planning.

To say you've gotta have your carbon auctioneering laid out and well understood if you are gonna go anywhere near a redevelopment of a scheme. [00:14:00] And I think that sort of clarity and transparency is why I think these will be very successful policies.

Luke Tatton: And it sounds like with how the New City plan is shaping up, we're gonna have a continuation of that organic pro approach with pragmatic policies that can pivot to where the market and policy needs to go .

Shravan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, I was, I was actually talking to the planning director earlier this week and I said, look, you know, um, whoever comes in next, whoever the next chair is, you will need to lay out for them what. the sort of pipeline of policies is against the backdrop of the pipeline of schemes that are coming through and really match those up and make sure that, you know, the development market also understands what's coming through.

So they can preempt that and they can pre-plan for that and, you know, speak to their investor base and say, look, these changes are coming. let's preempt that and work, work towards achieving the same goal.

Luke Tatton: And other than the city plan, are there any upcoming policy changes or announcements that we should be watching out for?

Shravan: I think the cultural framework, uh, is due to come out this [00:15:00] year. I think that is a really critical piece of work. I think that will tie in very nicely with the launch to the London Museum next year. I think it will tie in very nicely with, you know, as plans start to emerge around Smithfield, there's a lot of excitement around Smithfield and what's gonna happen with that space.

You know, you will start to see more and more activity around what people want to deliver in that quadrant of Smithfield. And I think. Having that cultural framework will help drive that narrative and that that's a really critical piece of work for us.

Luke Tatton: The city is continually evolving and one area where that's especially visible is how people interact with its buildings and spaces.

As you've just alluded to, the visitor numbers at Horizon 22 and the lookout have been staggering over 1 million visitors since 2023. Do you think we've reached peak public viewing spaces or is there still boom to climb?

Shravan: Yeah. You know, I, I was, I was always surprised, pleasantly surprised at how many people have been up to those viewing galleries.

Um, and I know that, I know they also keep a proportion. Of tickets for [00:16:00] walk-ins on the day. and, you know, as, as I look out the window now, I know this may come out later, but the sun's shining. I can imagine there's a cue outside. There's Ewing calories to get up to the top. Um, I, I've been pleasantly surprised every time I've walked past those, um, that on Bishop Skate, that the cues outside have been phenomenal.

Have we reached peak? I've talked to officers about this a lot and. The principle is not to deliver viewing galleries per se. The principle is to deliver unique perspectives and vistas that are not achievable anywhere else. I. That is the intent. That's gotta be the philosophy behind these viewing galleries.

What you don't want is a series of repetitive viewing galleries that offer exactly the same vista of London or you know, the Southeast and actually deliver very, very little unique, perspective. So that's the basis on which we start. [00:17:00] Now it happens that we are in the process of delivering the Eastern cluster.

And so there are a whole bunch of new vistas offering themselves up at this time. And so yes, we've seen a lot of viewing galleries being conditioned into schemes, but that is because of that unique perspective that they offer. Have we reached peak? We may well have, or we may, well, very well do in the near future.

I think there is a political feeling, and I, I've seen this in playing out in committee recently with schemes where members are starting to. Understand and want better delivery of the ground floor plane. That peripheral enjoyment of your environment as you go through it, as you transit through it, as you walk past it.

The cup of trees or the bushes or you know, a bit of greenery, people sitting on the grass at lunchtime, you know, enjoying that sort of environment I think carries a lot more. [00:18:00] Value place making value necessary than having viewing galleries at the top of buildings. And we're starting to get that balance through, and you'll see that with schemes that come through, that offer really, really high quality ground floor spaces for the public to enjoy are starting to get a lot more traction.

Luke Tatton: And I think the city does have a USV in that sense as being one of the only CAS destinations that permits and encourages tall buildings. So it can have that which compliments those ground floor uses. That you're talking about and beyond physical spaces, the city is also shaped by investment and economic confidence.

Recently, two Finsbury Avenue saw Europe's largest office transaction and major vote of confidence in the city's office market. What does this signal about the resilience and attractiveness of the square mile?

Shravan: So I think it speaks volumes to the approach we took after lockdown when, you know, we all woke up to the reality.

That, you know, are city centers valid [00:19:00] anymore? Do they have a place in society? I think that was the question we were asking ourselves when we woke up from lockdown. And the approach that we took with Destination City, uh, spearheaded by the chairman of Policy, I think really set the bar for what the city wanted to achieve.

To say, actually it does have a purpose, it does have a role, and we've gotta define that role. And we've gotta earn that commute and we've gotta drive employers back to the square mile. We've gotta drive business back to the square mile. But you are gonna drive talent. You wanna drive the best talent to the square mile.

And if you're gonna drive the best talent, you've gotta deliver the best ecosystem. And now I'm not just talking about comparing ourselves to other London boroughs or other cities in the uk. I'm talking about our peers and our competitors in other financial markets around the world. Because if I want true global talent, those people have a choice.

If they work in New York or Tokyo or Singapore or [00:20:00] London, and I want 'em to choose London because of the ecosystem they're getting by being in the square mile. So having that sort of principle behind us, I think gave the market confidence that we would deliver the type of places, the type of built environment and the quality of offices that then embody the values they have.

And we're starting to see that coming through. If you look at peak rents being achieved in the city, they are being achieved in those buildings that have sustainability at their heart, that have good embodied, carbon structures, that have good operational matrices around them, that have lower servicing vehicles to run those buildings that are very people centric.

That are welcoming, that are open, that have really good AM amenities in them. Yeah, and those are the buildings that are achieving peak rent. So that is being trans. That, that principle is now being seen as translated into economic benefit and economic [00:21:00] growth from a developer and investor perspective.

Luke Tatton: And in terms of attracting global talent, what global talent is evolving and its nature is changing. Less about suits and boots perhaps and more about hoodies and trainers. Do you think the city's getting the balance right in attracting both of those different types of, of global talent?

Shravan: Yes, he says as he sat here in a suit, in a tie.

Um, yeah, look, I've commonly joked that, uh, you see more people in trainers and t-shirts in the city in the summer than you do wearing suits. And, and long may that last. I mean, I, I think actually having a different demographic of worker and industry coming into the square mile is a good thing.

I've been very clear with my planning director and, and officers that actually we should be sector agnostic. Whilst the home of finance and the home of law and the home of insurance is the square mile and there is no desire. to drive them anywhere but the square mile. Actually, we should be welcoming and open to other sectors coming in.

And if you [00:22:00] look at the way tech has accelerated in the last 20 years, there's no other industry sector that comes anywhere near that sort of acceleration and growth. Look at the way AI is coming in now. it is gonna lead to phenomenal change in the next four or five years. Change that you and I could not sit here and pontificate about because we know what it'll be, but we know it's gonna happen.

So for me, it is very much around future proofing. What that demographic will want in its place, what sort of infrastructure they'll want is really, really important as well. Um, do we have the bandwidth in utilities? Do we have the ability to deliver the, the water infrastructure, the power infrastructure, the, you know, all that capacity, the transport infrastructure needed to bring these people in and out for their businesses to succeed.

And that, and that's something we really need to think about as we go forward in the future.

Luke Tatton: And how do you see planning policy? But also, I guess, political rhetoric in supporting this shift and how and where people work. [00:23:00]

Shravan: So I think employers have two tools in their arsenal. They have the carrot and stick right.

And, um, a character is always better than a stick, in my view. Um, and, and so actually being able to encourage your workforce back. into the environment, uh, that they want to be in is much better than forcing them back against their will and then expecting them to be productive. So I think if we can work hand in hand with occupiers, with tenants to say, what is it that your workforce want?

And have that conversation and deliver on that, it's more important. And that's where things like bids come in. That, that sort of hyper-local understanding of how we can deliver placemaking in that specific quadrant, in that specific street, in that specific lane. That's where the bids come into play and they have huge amounts of intelligence and resource to be able [00:24:00] to reach out to that ground floor plan and say, look, what is it that you need to be a success?

And then it's up to us as a city corporation to help deliver that, that that sort of street scape, um, and that environment that will allow, you know. SMEs through, through to large corporates to succeed.

Luke Tatton: Do you see that there's more room in the city for more bids? or do you think the balance is about right where we are at the moment?

Shravan: Yeah, so I mean, look, we've been on the bid journey. I, I don't want, I don't wanna give an exact timeline 'cause I'm not sure. It's about 15 years, I think 10, 15 years we've had bids. Um, or at least the, the concept of bids coming into the square mile. We've got five right now. Um, we've purposefully left. The riverfront bid free.

And the logic behind that was that the North Shore of the Thames is one that is largely neglected. It is difficult to navigate. It is, um, it's congested. Um, it isn't welcoming. [00:25:00] And yet if you look all the way from, Blackfriars through to the Tower of London, actually you've got an amazing potential.

To enliven that area. And so we've, carefully left that riverfront outta the bids. There is now a Riverside partnership that's formed and there is, the likelihood of a ballot for a bid. In the next year or so for that area. And I think that's really important that sort of riverfront, um, enlivenment will help drive traffic from, this great world heritage site that we have, the Tower of London through to the city and actually drive footfall and again, different demographics, families, tourists, school children into the square mile to enjoy that space.

So I think it's, it's only a positive thing.

Luke Tatton: Concluding with some reflections from your time as chairman of the Planning and Transportation Committee. as you stepped down as chairman, looking back, what's been your proudest achievement in the role?

Shravan: God, that's a tough one. Um, the way that the city [00:26:00] works is there's very little opportunity for individuals to make huge amounts of change, and I think that's a good thing.

Um, you know, the way that we work through committee means there is generally, um, a much more unified approach to change and so. To my mind actually, what this committee has achieved is I think they've taken huge leaps forward in pragmatic policies. I think world beating policies on understanding sustainabilityand to me it's not, it's not a very sexy subject, but actually it's a really, really important piece of work that we've done.

And it's a piece of work that is now getting traction much more widely in London. Across the UK and internationally, we've had visitations from different cities coming to us and continuing to come to us to say, how do we deliver that sort of carbon sustainability narrative where we are? And so for me that's one of the greatest achievements that of this committee's term.

Luke Tatton: If you could change one [00:27:00] thing about the way planning operates in the city, what would it be?

Shravan: Um, I think planning in the city actually operates relatively well, I think. We have a really good balance of highly skilled professional officers and well-informed lay members, and I think that equilibrium means we tend to reach the right sort of results.

Um, we are going to see huge change. Look, I've seen the planning infrastructure bill. I've had a readout of that The next few years is going to see. a reduction in the size of our committee. You know, we have the biggest planning committee in the country, um, for probably the smallest local authority in the country.

I think we are 0.001% of the UK's land mass. So, you know, do we need 30 people deciding on, on planning applications? So we are going to see change and, and I think for us. To have an open-minded and embrace that [00:28:00] change and perhaps preempt some of that change is a good thing. Uh, we know there is going to be more, uh, in that bill around, delegated authority to officers around having a much more process driven and transparent, uh, approach to planning.

Um, the city corporation has actually won a government grant to develop a digital planning framework. For the nation, and we're working together with five other authorities around the country to develop a unified digital planning framework. And the idea will be that gives, uh, applicants a uniformity and a transparency to the process.

So you know that if you deliver your documents in this way, in this order, the outcome will be process driven. And I think that's a huge step change. And so I think we are driving some of that, that thinking change. for the uk

Luke Tatton: there's some really exciting changes, like you say, coming down the line. Do you have a timeline for that digital planning framework?

Shravan: I think the first phase of that actually was. It came [00:29:00] out actually late last year. Um, the new grant was awarded, I think it was early this year, but I think it, it'll be sort of autumn, I think, before there are some outputs. And then of course it will go to consultation. It will go through the, the usual process, uh, that you'd expect for something like this across the country, to get buy-in, uh, before it gets, gets enacted.

But, you know, as a principle, I think it's a phenomenal piece of work for us to be, for us to be leading on.

Luke Tatton: And finally, what's next for you after stepping down as chairman?

Shravan: So, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I will stand for deputy chair. Uh, it's an elected role, but I will stand for it. Um, a committee on the 6th of May.

I think it's important that, uh, there is some continuity in especially a role like planning and transportation and infrastructure where there are. the time lag on the pipeline of projects coming through means that even if things are decided upon today, they're only executed and [00:30:00] realized over, over 3, 4, 5, 10 years.

And so I think having a year as deputy chair is something I'd, I'd like to do to help support that continuity. Um, and yeah, I'll see what I do from there. I suppose I become a back bencher, you know? We'll, we'll see. We'll see what other committees attract my attention. I'm

Luke Tatton: sure an an active role no matter what you do.

Yeah. To wrap up, let's do a quick fire round. So short answers only. First question. Liverpool Street or Bank?

Shravan: Oh, at Liverpool Street for me, it's in my Ward

Luke Tatton: Baran Center or one new Change.

Shravan: Baran Center. And actually I think Bar Center is gonna be really exciting with its re, re regeneration. Got 190 odd million pounds of our own money going into that.

It's gonna be exciting.

Luke Tatton: Leadenhall market or spitter? Fields's market.

Shravan: Oh, leadenhall, no doubt. Um, you know, going there seven days a week, seeing people you know, from, from Harry Potter, writes right through to insurance brokers, uh, and [00:31:00] everything in between. And drawing that space, I think is phenomenal.

Luke Tatton: It's always good for an after work drink as well.

Redevelopment or refurbishment.

Shravan: Actually refurbishment. You may not expect me to say that considering I've delivered some really tall towers in my time. Um, but, but actually I think, I think the excitement is refurbishment and the learning curve is ref is, is is that retrofit? There's so much to learn. Uh, I think that's the exciting bit for me.

Luke Tatton: And finally, historic alleyways or rooftop terraces.

Shravan: I'm gonna go for rooftop terraces.

Luke Tatton: Chauvin, you've been a great guest. Thank you for your time and insights.

Shravan: Thank you, Luke. Thank you everyone for listening.

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